I’ve always wondered why conservatives insist on coming to the fediverse when conventional networks are more appealing to them and their ideals nowadays. Or is that still not enough?
Talking and actually sticking with those ideals are totally different things
Right, but we weren’t talking about sticking to the ideals, we were talking about the ideals themselves.
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today
on 22 Sep 05:06
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and the mods are associated with Russia too, not surprising why its the most repressive sub,(after the others got banned years ago)
Zephorah@discuss.online
on 21 Sep 21:48
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If those were the ideals, the Kimmel and Colbert firings never would’ve happened.
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today
on 22 Sep 05:05
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thats why they also favor discord too, have thier own echo chamber, and allow adminstrative controls like with facebook, and not having something like reddit ban system hovering over thier shoulders, plus propaganda mods that keep them from speaking out of line(like with r/conservatives)
BaroqueInMind@piefed.social
on 21 Sep 21:22
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What’s the problem of those right-wing dipshits having their own instance? I’m trying to understand this perspective you all seem to have here.
Someone please elaborate the hesitancy of us accepting MAGA extremists having their own federated community?
Gullible@sh.itjust.works
on 21 Sep 21:31
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Because I don’t want to interact with them outside of very specific, and sporadic, questions. Their presence is an active detriment to me. Let them go back to truth social.
BaroqueInMind@piefed.social
on 21 Sep 21:55
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Are you the type that asks a cockroach or ant infestation to politely go away as well?
naught101@lemmy.world
on 21 Sep 22:02
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Is your argument here that your preferred way to deal with cockroaches is to let them have the run of your house? Hard to red anything rose out of that, given the context.
BaroqueInMind@piefed.social
on 21 Sep 22:14
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I need you to work on your reading comprehension and try again. Not going to spoon-feed you what I’m saying if you’re here asking me to spell shit out for you friend. Also this is not endorsement of said implications either.
GeeDubHayduke@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Sep 13:00
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Might wanna work on your writing skills there, hoss, because your comment reads exactly as described.
BaroqueInMind@piefed.social
on 22 Sep 18:03
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Maybe I’m too dumb to exist in reality?
GeeDubHayduke@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Sep 23:32
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You’re not making much sense to me. I ask this sincerely and without prejudice or malice. Are you feeling alright? Do you believe that having someone to talk to might help?
BaroqueInMind@piefed.social
on 21 Sep 23:18
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Im trying to tell you that fascism/MAGA is similar to an insect infestation. Would you like me to puree some food for you next and do the airplane thing with the spoon?
It’s perfectly fine to be frustrated, but please avoid demeaning others. I couldn’t detect sarcasm in either comment, so I read them straight. Lemmy is so averse to sarcasm that I can rarely notice it when it’s there. Were you initially speaking sarcastically?
BaroqueInMind@piefed.social
on 21 Sep 23:29
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Yes i was indeed being sarcastic. Apologies for the lack of “/s”, I keep forgetting I’m not smart enough to convey the sarcasm well.
Nobody is saying that they can't, mostly what you'll get is calls for defederation.
Calling for defederation is a matter of simply not accepting content or voting from the targeted instance. Everyone has the right to spin up an instance for whatever they believe, but everyone else also has the right to not pass your content through their servers or display it to their users
This isn't to call to shut them down, this is to raise awareness so people can update block lists, instance admins to investigate/check with their users/mods on what they want to do
LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Sep 21:40
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Yeah, isn’t truth social part of activitypub, just defederated… like Mastodon instances probably have blocks up if truth social doesn’t have it on their end
TheEntity@lemmy.world
on 21 Sep 21:32
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They can have it. We just don’t want to federate with them, which doesn’t prevent them from having their own instance all for themselves.
y0kai@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Sep 21:34
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They’re totally allowed to, just as we’re totally allowed to defederate or block or whatever. The question is why are they here, when they have taken over all the mainstream places and don’t really need a federated niche community.
Because they are trolls whose purpose is to actively harm everybody else. They do not deserve our tolerance.
eugenevdebs@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Sep 05:06
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Why would we want to talk to MAGA assholes who want to eradicate most of the userbase?
They’re allowed to make an instance, the software can’t stop them. They’re not required to be federated with.
Just like how you can say anything you want, you’re not required to have someone listen to it, or not have someone speak their mind about it back to you.
FartMaster69@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Sep 21:27
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Ideals don’t matter to them, what matters is spreading their propaganda far and wide.
A lot if it is sowing dissent and breaking discourse as well.
ImgurRefugee114@reddthat.com
on 21 Sep 21:38
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Bingo. These are the same people who will say that most political violence comes from the left while removing a study showing the opposite: a study about a statistical trend that has been well known and documented for longer than I’ve been alive.
They don’t care. Their beliefs shape shift to fit whatever is most expedient in the moment. They will openly lie to your face, without even trying to hide that it’s a lie while they smile and say they’re being honest. The people who gaslit the nation about project 2025 only to have cabinet members gleeposting about implementing it on social media.
Truth is irrelevant and reality is an inconvenience. Hypocrisy is as dead to them as the corpse of civility they prop up whenever it suits their narrative.
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 09:41
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They lie because they believe they’ll be part of the “in-group”, while in reality, they are going to be censored the moment their higher-up has the ability to turn on them without retribution.
They are fools, but not to be underestimated.
ImgurRefugee114@reddthat.com
on 21 Sep 21:31
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Same reason why tankies don’t just move to China, or why some Canadians had Trump bumperstickers: the point is to take over and wield authority as a weapon. Of course they try to invade and pollute every space they can and muddy waters wherever possible.
Sciaphobia@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Sep 13:22
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And they’ve been incredibly successful in doing so.
ragebutt@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Sep 21:35
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They go everywhere because even if a bunch of people are like “fuck off nazis” there will be a few people that are like “oh hey you have some good ideas”.
That’s why they’ve been recruiting online since the beginning of the internet. Capture whoever you can that’s sympathetic and keep bolstering numbers by any means necessary. Worked out pretty well for them
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 21 Sep 21:55
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Maybe us commies and socialists need to do it the same way, work against them.
If the thousand instance users are controlled by three people, it’s not that hard.
We might not be there yet though. Elections are far enough out.
I expect 95% of Lemmy to be propaganda and manipulation when we get closer. There’s only so much that can be done to keep out nation states when all the users are anonymous.
And when you put your real name on things, you get cancelled.
It’s a bad time for the Internet, and I don’t have easy answers. Just be very aware that what seems to be “consensus” opinion might actually be twenty accounts controlled by the same guy or organization. They might even argue with each other, and just have the side they want to lose present weak arguments.
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today
on 22 Sep 05:07
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or they infilitrate instances by creating an account in there and just troll.
sorghum@sh.itjust.works
on 21 Sep 22:08
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Before Trump, the “traditional” social media was likely pushing the Democrats’ agenda (like the Twitter files under the guise of more moderation. Now the tactic is being used by the Trump administration just more in the open and in more traditional media (Jimmy Kimmel). Big media is such an easy target for govt influence when it’s all ad supported.
I’d bet they see the writing on the wall that the government has too much influence in social media. So this time they don’t want to be caught with their pants down when Democrats come back into power. The other thing I feel is on the horizon is the end of the ad supported internet. I’ve said it before, be prepared to do it yourself or pay for it. I guarantee the guys behind this instance is in the do it yourself camp.
Disclaimer: I am libertarian and view both DNC and GOP as different sides of the same authoritarian coin. Right wing flavored, left wing flavored, both are disgusting when it’s authoritarianism.
pelespirit@sh.itjust.works
on 21 Sep 22:24
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Because this place isn’t censored for their side, they’re trying to break it.
qwerty@discuss.tchncs.de
on 21 Sep 23:38
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FOSS is for everyone. Not wanting to be dependent on big tech isn’t uniquely a leftist ideal, and it should be obvious by now that the political affiliation and community guidelines of big tech companies are entirely dependent on the current political landscape, not any moral values or held ideals, and can change at any moment.
Not wanting to be dependent on big tech isn’t uniquely a leftist ideal
Are you sure? most people working on projects against big tech tend to be very left leaning. The conservatives love using the appeal of authority to silence minorities and voices they don’t like.
Right wing creeping up to take control of these spaces doesn’t make it their ideal.
I could be wrong. Can you name some popular projects against big tech by conservatives?
Can you name some popular projects against big tech by conservatives?
The entire alt-tech sphere, I guess, but other than that I can’t really think of many projects that explicitly say they lean right or left. As far as I can tell, most projects focus on working on whatever they’re trying to accomplish and don’t mention their political opinions for whatever reason, maybe because they don’t want to alienate their users and contributors or maybe because they are made by many people, each with their own opinions, and there isn’t a single shared belief system behind it, like ThePirateBay for example. We can try to infer what political stance someone holds, like the CEO of Brave, for example, who donated some money to an anti-gay marriage bill in 2008, or the CEO of Proton, who said some positive things about the Republican party recently, but I don’t think it’s fair to assign a political affiliation to the entire project because some of the team members expressed their opinions.
Are you sure? most people working on projects against big tech tend to be very left leaning.
I think that you make a mistake and assume that just because someone agrees with you on not wanting to be reliant on big tech, they also agree with you on everything else, or you read something like
We want to advance human rights and freedoms by creating and deploying free and open source anonymity and privacy technologies, supporting their unrestricted availability and use, and furthering their scientific and popular understanding
and falsely assign that to be a left-wing stance, when in reality most people, left or right, would support that. I haven’t seen any evidence that most people working on anti big tech projects are left-leaning. Most people don’t publicly share their political beliefs.
ivanafterall@lemmy.world
on 21 Sep 23:51
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When I was a conservative piece of shit, in my younger days, I had the most outlandish bumper stickers you can imagine. Probably more outlandish than you can imagine, actually, 99.9% likelihood. There were quite a few. I knew I was being an ass and I loved when it offended people, because I was miserable. Someone was paying attention to me. I was getting a reaction. I existed! Anyway, yeah, it can be as simple as “they get off on ruining your day cuz they’re miserable pieces of shit.” Speaking from experience.
Lyrl@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Sep 00:08
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Thanks for sharing. I’m glad you are feeling less miserable now.
That video is like a weirdly nostalgic confessional of my time in D.C. I was a huge piece of shit. Systematic theology book. Capitol Hill job. Little bitty bow ties. Speakeasies. Pork stuffed potatoes at Dixie Bones. People can change.
lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com
on 22 Sep 03:15
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they get off on ruining your day cuz
That’s true of everyone, though.
Leftists find leftists grating, rigid with their insufferable call-out tactics, fixation on niche issues, clashing priorities, infighting, ease of provocation at obvious bait.
We love to troll ourselves & just have a stronger capacity than the right to endure the left.
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today
on 22 Sep 05:08
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they want attention, which is why magat are so desperate for trump to recognize them.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 05:59
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Good job being less of a piece of shit and congrats on the happiness. Any advice for helping people out of there?
Take mushrooms in Amsterdam, say “it’s not doing anything” and also take your sister-in-law’s portion (turns out everyone is going to bed so you’re on your own for this first psilocybin trip, which should make it easier to…)
Cry for five to six hours, finally lose religion and 80-90 pounds (over next 6-12 months), get medicated for ADHD (not currently, but sure helps), continue occasionally microdosing and/or smoking pot until everything finishes clicking.
obviouspornalt@lemmynsfw.com
on 22 Sep 11:14
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You should’ve been on the ride! It was indeed something.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 15:53
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Ok so I’ve got to make like the CIA and put lsd in fhe water supply? Got it. /s obviously
Funny though as me and a friend found religion through acid, though we stayed progressive. I do really wish more people would go trip in pursuit of better understanding of shared humanity
GeeDubHayduke@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Sep 12:57
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“They turned potoooooooo into a conservative!”
Potoooooooo: “…i got better.”
Sludgehammer@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 00:39
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They need an audience to perform for. When ever you see a social media “safe space” for conservatives (Voat, Truth Social, etc.) they almost always wither and die. They need people to blame for being everything wrong with the world as well as react to their terrible takes, otherwise there’s no point in shouting their outrage and anger on the internet.
muntedcrocodile@hilariouschaos.com
on 22 Sep 03:20
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Conservatives value the marketplace of ideas. The fediverse is a true embodiment of the marketplace of ideas. No wonder they are coming.
Alphane_Moon@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 05:29
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Is that really true though?
When living in the US, it seemed American conservatives seemed mostly to be oligarch shills and with very shallow and performative beliefs.
Mind you, I think there needs to be balance of sorts between left and right, competition to keep both sides honest. But this doesn’t apply to American “conservatives” who at least at the high level seemed to mostly consist of demagogues.
The “marketplace of ideas” phrase is a perfect example of the theatrical and performative nature of American conservativism.
muntedcrocodile@hilariouschaos.com
on 22 Sep 12:29
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Don’t lie to urself we both know that both parties are just as corrupt and bought out by corporate interests. The lefts beliefs are just as performative. Empathy for all people unless they say words we don’t like. Gun violence is bad and we should ban all guns but its OK to shoot some people for their opinions.
If the communists are to be tolerated so must the Nazis. Communism is responsible for more deaths than the Nazis their is no argument for one that does not also lend value to the other. I’m of the persuasion that both those ideologies are evil and wrong but those ideas must be combatted by rational discussion and the only way to do that is allow all to speek.
I’m neither a conservative or a democrat. I’m in fact not even a fucking American twat. But I have beliefs that strongly align with both sides and beliefs that strongly oppose both sides. Only in the struggle between ideas can actual change happen. Only through challenging the mind can greater ideas be formed. Fuck the political parties its not a football game where we choose sides and cheer for the downfall of our opponents it as a philosophical dance of ideas where the best shall eclipse all teams.
The marketplace of ideas is an idea it is a concept it is not consecrate it is not progressive it is its own thing and it requires all sides take part. Lemmy is a hard left echo chamber I would like to see lemmy represent the average person to grant all people a voice in the great marketplace of ideas. And to do this we need the rightwingers.
I never said anything about US democrats (who are centre-right) or leftists. And where did I say you are American or even that you are a conservative or Democrat. Why are you bringing this up?
I said something very specific, that US conservatives are beholden to oligarchs and even their alleged deeply held beliefs do not pass the basic smell test if you’ve lived in different countries / speak different languages and so on (this is true irrespective of you political views). It’s like claiming the United Russia party has deeply held beliefs. This is a ridiculous proposition.
Making claims that “US conservatives support the marketplace ideas” is exactly the kind of thing that brings up massive red flags. Conservative/Progressive refers to broad political alignment. You can have people in both camps who support the marketplace of ideas and those that don’t. You can also have people who like to make statements about supporting the marketplace of ideas for superficial reasons.
Hey Jimmy Kimmel, how do you like that marketplace of ideas? I heard conservatives sure do value that marketplace. Why can’t I hear you Jimmy?
muntedcrocodile@hilariouschaos.com
on 22 Sep 12:14
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Ohh that’s cos the left killed the guy who wanted free speech. Now they playing by your rules. You did this to yourself. The irony is palpable.
U wanted a culture war, u wanted to silence free speech. You are now subject to the paradox of tolerance. You could not tolerate descenting opinions so your opinions cannot he tolerated. Ohh the irony.
I think it’s worth it to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the second amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal. It is rational.
Sounds like they were playing by his rules? We both know there’s no evidence “the left” killed him but hey we all know how conservatives feel about facts right?
muntedcrocodile@hilariouschaos.com
on 23 Sep 03:33
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We both know he was datings someone trans. He had hundreds of hours in a game called “furry shades of gay”. Does either of those things sound like right wing to you?
Yea, but it's not like they're going to get a whole lot of conversions from here, probably mostly right-wingers who were already here and a couple troll accounts Lmao
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 21 Sep 21:54
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Would probably have been better to quietly report those to other big federated places, so they can defed.
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today
on 22 Sep 05:10
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you’re also free to block instances that are offensive, as are instance admins can block extemist instances that are disruptive.
KazuchijouNo@lemy.lol
on 21 Sep 21:26
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pewgar_seemsimandroid@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 11:59
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thanks.
wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 21 Sep 21:41
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Meh. I’d rather they have their meeting places out in the light like this than hidden away in the dark web or something.
Just block, defed, move on. No need to feed their narrative of being the last bulwark against the bad guys by dogpiling them. People are allowed to be wrong and you won’t change their minds by storming in all righteous at them anyway. That will just entrench them more.
If you truly want to turn them, there’s plenty of studies and research done on how to actually influence people and change minds. Some of it is even in leaked classified intelligence agency field guides, which is a fun way to end up on a list!
WhyIHateTheInternet@lemmy.world
on 21 Sep 21:56
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I can think of worse lists to be on
FenderStratocaster@lemmy.world
on 21 Sep 23:22
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Everyone Probably Sometimes Thinks Everything Is Nothing. Like I Shouldn’t Think.
WhyIHateTheInternet@lemmy.world
on 24 Sep 00:16
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Damn it took me way longer than I care to admit what that jumbled mess of words meant lol
FenderStratocaster@lemmy.world
on 21 Sep 23:17
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Also, I think it’s a good thing that I sometimes wonder that maybe I’m in the echo chamber. Maybe my mental health is fucked up because I surround myself with angry liberals. I feel like it’s almost good to read differing opinions.
I never end up agreeing with them so I guess that’s good but questioning yourself is probably good.
uranibaba@lemmy.world
on 21 Sep 23:40
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maybe I’m in the echo chamber
I always try to have that in mind when I talk to my SO. I usually say “I’ve read X and lemmy but lemmy is VERY left bla bla”. Not to invalidate what I read here, but to be mindful of my sources.
There’s no echo chamber when you’re surrounding yourself with people that don’t want to kill and harass others for simply being themselves. You’re not in one.
Fascists on the other hand, are certainly in an echo chamber.
FenderStratocaster@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 13:08
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You are literally saying “I’m not in an echo chamber, the people that disagree with me are.” I think it’s good to question yourself once in a while.
Yes, sometimes that majority can be wrong.
If I don’t call for people to die horribly simply because they’re not allowed to abort, which would save their life, does it make me the problem? Or what with people who shout people should be murdered because they’re Jewish/Muslim/atheist whatever?
No, the problem lies with the oligarchs fueling that hatred.
Anyway, thanks for adding one to the block list!
FenderStratocaster@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 14:53
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You’re blocking me because I think you should question your opinion now and again?
MisterCurtis@lemmy.world
on 21 Sep 21:46
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In all honesty, let them have it. Let them out themselves, let them put it on record. Let them burn themselves for the future.
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 21 Sep 21:53
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That’s how it always begins. I disagree. Fascists will never peacefully claim a place or burn out. They need to be barred and removed.
Good, the more people on this protocol the better. If they behave then they shouldnt be defederated. But most maga beliefs are already breaking every rule.
Ileftreddit@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 00:51
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obviously but until they break the rules the whole instance shouldnt be defederated. I highly doubt an instance called magaland is going to last long though.
SkyezOpen@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 02:20
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There is already a ton of open fascists on this platform. Our instance is defederated with some but not all of them. This is due to rule breaking behavior
NoodlePoint@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 00:33
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I bet it’s yet another joint run by the Internet Research Agency or its successors.
Why would they not just stay on Twitter, Truth Social, reddit or Facebook? Those places are tailor-made for MAGA 🤔
chilicheeselies@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 01:07
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They want to spread their diareah everywhere
Mniot@programming.dev
on 22 Sep 03:01
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In the novel Snow Crash, the residents of the white-supremacist micro-state franchises visit other places because they have no non-whites to attack at home.
missfrizzle@discuss.tchncs.de
on 22 Sep 05:23
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is that the Network State that Peter Thiel is trying to build?
There was an SNL skit a while ago with a similar vibe. A bunch of white nationalists having a meeting and one guys describing his vision for a white utopia and the other guy is like “yeah I just got back from Vermont and it really sounds like you’re describing Vermont”
If you think twitter is an echo chamber but lemmy isn’t then I have a bridge to sell you.
Hiphophorrah@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 00:51
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Cut the cancer out
Hiphophorrah@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 00:54
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Cut it out
BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 01:10
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I’ve noticed a significant uptick in rightist trolls on the fediverse since the devil called Charlie Kirk home. Absolutely nowhere is safe from fascist infiltration for long. Hopefully the half decent instances defederate from those cesspits en masse.
LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 04:41
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There are some original style old school websites that are niche and small that are fine. Too small to be worth the bots’ time.
Eg if you like miniature painting, going to a small, dedicated website forum just for that, is more likely to be genuine than anything like Lemmy or Reddit. And truly it is more decentralized.
yes but also, never underestimate a fascist’s and troll’s malice
they’ll always try to infiltrate everywhere, and upon being asked and their stances exposed, they feign ignorance and will leave the discussion if pushed far enough… but they will always try to seize the room.
we should report, defederate, and give them no publicity except for among mods willing to defederate with the fascists.
StrawberryPigtails@lemmy.sdf.org
on 22 Sep 01:58
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Hmm. Where’d I put the popcorn?
sad_detective_man@sopuli.xyz
on 22 Sep 02:09
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I don’t know how studied fediverse mods are on how the right infiltrated reddit moderation but I really hope you guys know. and that moderator actions are visible to eachother
Maga.place is already defederated by a bunch of instances.
sad_detective_man@sopuli.xyz
on 22 Sep 02:24
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that’s good. they should vet any new mods on their own spaces pretty thoroughly though. the chuds on reddit played a very long game to get to the point where they can do that they do now
We have the modlog, all mod actions are not only visible to other mods and admins but to everyone.
Though there definitely could be some improvement and there have been changes made by dessalines to make it less useful allegedly to protect themselves, it still should be able to prevent that kind of shenanigans
sad_detective_man@sopuli.xyz
on 22 Sep 04:00
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The people here have mostly learned how to deal with fascists, and that includes not wasting time with bad faith bullshit that you have no interest in actually discussing.
As far as I’m concerned, this is the entire benefit of lemmy/piefed/etc… They can have their space, and any other instance can choose not to federate with them so we aren’t forced to listen to them, unlike the alternative, where an algorithm forces them into everyone’s face.
Rather than telling them they don’t have the right to speak, we simply have the ability to shut our window and not listen to them.
SailorFuzz@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 05:21
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but I’m on Lemmy.World and I’m too stupid to understand everything.
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 09:39
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I disagree with them being welcome, if we have more fascists over here eventually we’ll get overrun. Best to shut that door immediately.
nuggie_ss@lemmings.world
on 22 Sep 10:27
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You have a very poor understanding of how the fediverse works if you think that’s true.
You can always section yourself off from the instances you don’t like. If it just so happens that you’re sectioning yourself off from most of the fediverse, then that’s on you.
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 12:00
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Except that what I call for is a collective defederation from those fascists.
The ones sectioning themselves off are the fascists by virtue of holding repulsive ideologies.
nuggie_ss@lemmings.world
on 22 Sep 12:02
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My friend, the person you replied to is that fascist.
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 13:42
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Thanks for letting me know, blocked them. Blåhaj on, comrade!
GeeDubHayduke@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Sep 12:38
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Ooh ooh! Please mansplain the fediverse, 12 hour old account!
Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Sep 12:20
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Them making their own space actually lets us much more easily reduce our exposure to them - without their space we get them everywhere and each of us have to ban such users individuals to avoid their poison, whilst if they’re congregated in a server we can just ban that server and/or its forums.
In terms of the NAZI bar metaphor, this is more like the NAZIS setting up their own bar and congregating there rather than trying to take over other bars - everybody else can very easilly avoid even looking at the NAZI bar, much less going there and listening to them spreading their ideology - yeah, by default the sound of their activities does leak to the street, but in Lemmy we’re the ones who can chose to close the door, not them.
Compare that with, for example, how the Zionists captured news@lemmy.world and even up to a level the server itself, by seeking moderation and admin positions there: subverting an existing large traffic forum and the biggest Lemmy instance is way much more pernicious than what the other kind of NAZI are doing by setting up their own - easily avoided - corner.
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 12:41
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You raise good points, but for me the issue is, the Nazis then still have their own bar. And that creates a hub for them to advertise, spread, and sow hatred. And eventually, to try to buy the owners of the media platform. This is the literal “embrace, extend, extinguish” playbook they’re using. Is that not a problem too? How could we combat it best?
I think it’s better if we shut down their bar and bar them from even coming to any bar.
They want to go to a bar? Either don’t be a fascist or shut up.
Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Sep 13:33
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They would have one either way - I mean, just look at Twitter, Reddit, FOX News. Even when there weren’t such NAZI spaces bought and paid for by billionaires, NAZIs had their own websites, mailing lists and whatever.
Weakenning the freedom inherent to the Fediverse’s implementation just because the NAZIs might use it to create their own space is just indirectly constraining yourself because of the NAZIs, which IMHO is the opposite of what we should be doing.
Would you defend changing HTTP(S) and HTML to somehow stop NAZIs using it because as they are now they can be used by NAZIs to spread their message? How about e-mail? How about pen and paper?
You can’t just throw the baby with the bathwater “because NAZIs”.
If you really want to stop NAZI messaging altogether you can’t do it by Technical means, you have to do it by Social and Political means - Laws Censoring NAZI messaging - and even there, look at Germany that does it and all they seem to have achieved is that the NAZI symbology is hidden whilst a large part of the NAZI way of things is widespread in society (hence the AfD success) and some elements of it are even shared by the majority (hence Germany’s very overtly race-justified unconditional support of a nation commiting a Genocide). De facto Germany’s banning of NAZIsm hasn’t stopped the kind of Fascism like in the US right now or the AfD there, were they use the NAZI propaganda techniques and share many ideological elements with the NAZIs but just don’t use NAZI symbols.
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 13:41
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Barring them from everywhere would be ideal, but if not that, barring them from as many places as possible would be good too. Billionnaires have too much power and they are the powderkeg, in my view, that enabled fascism. So imho, we need to reduce their numbers and wealth, redistributing it to everyone.
I defend barring fascists everywhere, and not compromising the resilence of the fediverse to censorship from fascists.
And as for social and political means… in Germany, the AfD has had fewer votes as a % of turnout, than what the Republicans got in the US. I think the real cure is to combat algorithms by the root, and to seize the power over them back to the left and anyone non-fascist (or not as insane).
Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Sep 14:27
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I understand the feeling.
I also look at it Logically and that yields a more subtle take.
My point is that thinking that ANYTHING is acceptable to contain the NAZIs (even when it hurts the rest) is forgetting that the whole point of stopping the NAZIs is to protected everybody else and their freedoms.
I’ll give you a parallel example: start by “Everybody should be thrown in Jail to make sure all criminals are in Jail”. Whilst it would work, this is obviously senseless. Once that’s accepted the discussion becomes “how far should we go to make sure criminals go to Jail” and onwards to “how many innocents wrongly in Jail is acceptable” and “how many criminals who evade Jail is acceptable”.
All that is what lead to things like a Justice System with Presumption of Innocence, different sentences for different Crimes and an Appeals System.
When it comes to stopping NAZIs the same reasoning applies - “ANYTHING is acceptable” is obviously senseless (killing all human beings would certainly stop the NAZIs, but I expect we both agree that it’s a bit too much) so the discussion is then moved to “how far are we willing to sacrifice the rest in order to stop the NAZIs”, which is the area of thinking anchoring my original point - if the NAZIs are contained (by their own choice, even), then maybe it’s not worth it to sacrifice the freedom of the rest by mangling the Fediverse if all that would deliver as a result is the near-zero impact outcome of barring the NAZIs from their own separate space in the Fediverse whilst they can still gather elsewhere.
In my view by wanting that you asked originally, a far greater number of people than the number of NAZIs would sacrifice a lot for something that will make the NAZIs lose very little - or in other words your idea amounts to “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”.
I don’t think that “lets’ fuck up what’s important for almost everybody in order to barelly inconvenience the NAZIs” is a wise position, even if I understand the impulse to “just fuck those sons of a bitch no matter what”.
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 14:30
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But, how would you inconvenience the Nazis then? How would you deter them from the fediverse?
Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Sep 14:46
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Deterring them from the Fediverse (as in not letting the use the protocol) is a near zero impact for them outcome, possibly technically impossible (it’s an open protocol and the software is open source) and possibly with a lot of negative impact for everybody else (it risks undermining the main point of the Fediverse - Freedom).
Much more important is deterring them from spreading their hate to other people (in general) and as it so happens, when it comes to the people in the Fediverse, them segregating themselves in their own server actually helps with that: other servers can simple defederate, taking away their audience, hence they’re not actually spreading their hate to others in the Fediverse.
With them not being self-segregated it’s a lot harder because it they’ll do what they are doing right now: join servers all over the place, post comments all over the place, so in response they get banned if they go too far (and then just open a new account) and others tend to try and nullify their poison by downvoting them or pointing out the with logic the stupidity and/or inconsistence of their position, all of which is a lot more fallible than just defederating the NAZI instance.
More generally, there is no perfect way to “deter them from the fediverse” (just try to actually analyse the problem space and you will soon find that there’s no foolproof method), and hence the discussion has to be about how far should we go and what the delivers the best results, which brings us around to the point I was making: having the NAZIs in their own instance does more to stop them spreading their poison the Fediverse audience than somehow blocking that and keeping on trying to stamp them down individually when they’re mixed with the general fediverse population.
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 15:00
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True, freedom is important, but I feel like the paradox of tolerance also could apply.
Wouldn’t it then be a better idea for one of us to secretly install a ‘mole’ instance for the far-right? Once a critical mass is reached, all users from there can be banned, and someone loyal to us can make a new mole instance, claiming it’s free from their censorship. And then again, rinse and repeat.
Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Sep 15:52
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The Paradox Of Tolerance is about how we should not tolerate the intolerant, not about what sacrificing ourselves to inconvenience the intolerant, must less sacrifice others to inconvenience the intolerant.
It’s really only about the Tolerant tolerating the Intolerance leads to an increase of Intolerance, and doesn’t really cover how far and justified is to make onself or others lose something to inconvenience the Intolerant, or in other word, the devil in the details part of any solution.
That said, your idea has merit and it has parallels to what some of the right does - for example, how the right creates spaces which they pass as leftwing to attract leftwing people and then when enough of a critical mass arises they use it to spread rightwing-distortions of leftwing ideas or even just outright rightwing ideas: look at Twitter or, even better, Reddit or even what the DNC has done to the Democrat Party in the US.
The discussion there is not anymore “how much is right to sacrifice the rest to inconvenience the NAZIs”, but instead is “how moral and ethical it is to create fake NAZI spaces to fuck with the NAZIS” - so it doesn’t involve sacrificing the rest at all - and personally I think it’s pretty damn ethical and moral to fuck with the NAZIs like that (after all, they want to do far worse to other people than merelly honeypot them into an online space that just gets closed after a while, so it’s not even close to how harshly they deserve to be treated)
How easy or hard it is to pull that off, especially repeatedly, is a different matter, as the Technical bit of setting up such instances is easy, the hard part is to attract the NAZIs to the honeypots, which is a Marketing problem.
I mean “welcome” in the most generic, passive aggressive Canadian sense of the word. Shutting the door is exactly what the strength of federated/defederated social media is all about.
Except if you are on lemmy, if another instance user reposts their shit, your instance will get to see that because the devs don't want to completely block their own propaganda.
That's why I moved to Piefed, and the propaganda about my country has plummeted for some reason...
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today
on 22 Sep 05:12
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i wouldnt be surprised, since r/cons is controlled by russian mods.
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 06:20
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turns out it’s actually a russian matrushka all the way down
Harvey656@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 05:46
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It’s certainly of Cyrillic descent but I mean that name in specific, perhaps from Lemmy or the Fediverse? Or… fuck were they the guy who made a fake STALKER multi-player port as a scam?
muntedcrocodile@hilariouschaos.com
on 22 Sep 15:31
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Hahaha. That’s just karma for when the same thing was done to the conservative community on lemmy. Remember it was u guys who killed the free respectful speech guy.
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today
on 22 Sep 05:11
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right wing only threads, forums usually dont survive, because they need to constant attack “the enemy”
to stay relevant, cant have that if everyone just agrees with you all the time.
muntedcrocodile@hilariouschaos.com
on 22 Sep 12:30
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And instances that isolate from them will struggle to remain relevant.
Imagine using Fediverse and thinking that some of the instances with certain political alignment can make it effectively centralized by somehow tanking other instances. This is impossible imo, but with this mindset, why not just use centralized platforms?
muntedcrocodile@hilariouschaos.com
on 22 Sep 12:11
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The fediverse is based on the fundamental philosophy of the network effect. Idea is that once the fediverse has a large enough user base existing outside of that is impossible.
I’m simply saying their are enough right wing and centre people who use social media that an isolated hard left echo camber cannot exist as an isolated island. Federation enables a true marketplace of ideas a true bastion of free speech. It is unstoppable it is inevitable. No instance shall centralise it but the majority of the people who use the internet expect to be able to interact with other using it.
A majority of users on politically neutral instances will kill isolated extremists who don’t federate. lemmy.world and lemm.ee where the first to prove that and its only going to grow. Information craves freedom and censorship will always lose.
That’s a good point tbh. Not like it’s going to “kill” them or whatever, but the idea I read in your post, is that right-wing instances are more likely to remain federated with neutral instances than left-wing instances are to remain federated with neutral instances. I hope it’s gonna kick some of those leftists in the ass to get back some of their classical libertarian values like free speech, because what they’re doing right now is truly suicidal.
muntedcrocodile@hilariouschaos.com
on 22 Sep 12:51
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Exactly. I have a feeling they gonna have to learn the hard way. Mind u the left suddenly cares about free speech again since the right figured out how to cancel people.
DrunkAnRoot@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Sep 04:03
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we should start a fediverse tv show called fedi-deathmatch and its just 5 ppl from maga.place and 5 ppl from hexbear.net having a debate
Before I even read the thing, “here’s the link, I havent read it myself” is the single most gigachad thing I’ve ever read, you live up to your username my dear King/Queen/Inbetween, thank you!
Calling the police often escalates situations, puts people at risk, and leads to violence. Anytime you seek help from the police, you’re inviting them into your community and putting people who may already be vulnerable into dangerous situations. Sometimes people feel that calling the police is the only way to deal with problems. But we can build trusted networks of mutual aid that allow us to better handle conflicts ourselves and move toward forms of transformative justice, while keeping police away from our neighborhoods.
Don’t feel obligated to defend property—especially corporate “private” property. Before confronting someone or contacting the police, ask yourself if anyone is being hurt or endangered by property “theft” or damage. If the answer is “no,” then let it be.
If something of yours is stolen and you need to file a report for insurance or other purposes, consider going to the police station instead of bringing cops into your community. You may inadvertently be putting someone in your neighborhood at risk.
If you observe someone exhibiting behavior that seems “odd” to you, don’t assume that they are publicly intoxicated. A traumatic brain injury or a similar medical episode may be occurring. Ask if they are OK, if they have a medical condition, and if they need assistance.
If you see someone pulled over with car trouble, stop and ask if they need help or if you can call a tow truck for them. If the police are introduced to such a situation, they may give punitive and unnecessary tickets to people with car issues, target those without papers, or worse.
Keep a contact list of community resources like suicide hotlines. When police are contacted to “manage” such situations, people with mental illness are sixteen times more likely to be killed by cops than those without mental health challenges.
Check your impulse to call the police on someone you believe looks or is acting “suspicious.” Is their race, gender, ethnicity, class, or housing situation influencing your choice? Such calls can be death sentences for many people.
Encourage teachers, coworkers, and organizers to avoid inviting police into classrooms, workplaces, and public spaces. Instead, create for a culture of taking care of each other and not unwittingly putting people in harm’s way. If you’re part of a group that’s holding a rally or demonstration, don’t get a permit or otherwise cooperate with the police.
If your neighbor is having a party and the noise is bothering you, go over and talk to them. Getting to know your neighbors with community events like monthly block parties is a good way to make asking them to quiet down a little less uncomfortable, or to find another neighbor who is willing to do so.
If you see someone peeing in public, just look away! Remember, for example, that many houseless people do not have reliable access to bathrooms.
Hold and attend deescalation, conflict resolution, first-aid, volunteer medic, and self-defense workshops in your neighborhood, school, workplace, or community organization.
Street art is beautiful! Don’t report graffiti and other street artists. If you see work that includes fascistic or hate speech, paint over it yourself or with friends.
Remember that police can escalate domestic violence situations. You can support friends and neighbors who are being victimized by abusers by offering them a place to stay, a ride to a safe location, or to watch their children. Utilize community resources like safe houses and hotlines.
Ilovethebomb@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Sep 11:31
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I’m having trouble telling if the person who wrote that was trolling, or just really fucking stupid.
If your neighbor is having a party and the noise is bothering you, go over and talk to them. Getting to know your neighbors with community events like monthly block parties is a good way to make asking them to quiet down a little less uncomfortable, or to find another neighbor who is willing to do so.
That sounds like a great way to get assaulted.
1141kizzie@thelemmy.club
on 22 Sep 13:59
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Meh, you are overreacting
InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 15:29
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Such neighbor are more often than not too unagreeable to just have a chat with.
Police have a long history of using excessive force and being excessively punitive against anyone who looks different. Literally the first police force in the country were slave catchers and they never left those roots.
Edit: holy shit did you actually forget to change alts before replying to yourself?! Good job! Bravo!
Y’know what, reviewing your post history, I believe you. You happened to step on a landmine though with your above comment about criminals, because the general problem of overpolicing and excessive force is reinforced by a laws that help perpetuate it.
For an extreme example, if you make it illegal to sleep under a bridge, any homeless person trying to get some rest in a public space that happens to provide a little bit of shelter is now a criminal. But do you think the police are going to hassle grampa who dozed off sitting at a park bench because it’s 3pm and he usually has had a nap by now? And when the newly deemed criminal gets upset about being arrested for just trying to get some shut eye that can be determined to be resisting arrest therefore the police can use more force. Maybe that triggers some PTSD and they start fighting back in which case the amount of force escelates.
The law and the criminal justice system are unfortunately designed to perpetuate a cycle of criminalism. Punitive prisons and sentencing make it difficult for anyone who has been arrested to adjust to living in society again. Parole and probation (the supposed support structure provided to people as they leave the prison system) is structured to penalize folks who already have it rough for struggling to make ends meet, and can quickly land people back in prison for offenses as simple as having work schedule them during their mandated parole meetings and needing to choose between potentially losing their job and becoming homeless or potentially being arrested again. Or they might find that they can make an actual living wage working in a black market (drugs, vehicle chop shop, etc.) because having a record excludes them from better paying employment options that offer a better work-life balance. Or maybe they couldn’t afford the restitution payments required (fines that were part of their sentence and fees for participating in the justice system) they go back to prison and ultimately come out much later even less able to adjust and the cylce continues until they die in prison, die homeless living in a gutter or die a death related to whatever trade they can pick up with their criminal record (industrial accident, drug overdose, gang violence, take your pick)
So yeah in short, some folks have a tight line to walk so that their existence isn’t criminalized
I see, over policing. Here police try to solve domestic(family) disputes without registering complains & overlook trivial offenses. And in local area, people usual approach respected locals & panchayat first. because it is common sense that justice system is unnecessarily expensive & takes a lot time to deliver justice.
PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de
on 22 Sep 09:37
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I presume they were attempting to clarify that the type of xenophobia that they most likely expected to see was directed at themselves due solely to their nationality.
But you could test this by making xenophobic comments against both, and see what happens. Then perhaps make an alt and perform in reverse ordering.
Okay, and? The whole point of the fediverse is that everyone gets a voice. It’s good to see more people adopting it too, even conservatives. It’ll be less of an echo chamber that way.
Highlandcow@feddit.uk
on 22 Sep 07:22
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My honest reaction exactly, and I have to say I feel like just being on lemmy for a little bit it does feel like a bit of a left wing eco chamber, which isn’t necessarily that bad and it makes sense due to alot of left wing people migrating from twitter and the likes, idk it’s just something I’ve noticed and wanted to mention
Yeah. I don’t usually mind either too much. I think there is a problem when you have the likes of !christianity@lemmy.world being downvote brigaded to the point that it actually is unfairly balancing the posts due to the slim minority of Christians on here. Most lefties I find on here are cool, though. Just a slim minority of them, like the ones who get offended at you saying “bro”
Also, having a Trumpet on lemmy is infinitely better than the loli porn instances
think there is a problem when you have the likes of !christianity@lemmy.world being downvote brigaded to the point that it actually is unfairly balancing the posts due to the slim minority of Christians on here.
Are you and the other mods aware that you can see who downvotes, and potentially ban systematic downvoters? That’s a topic that is regularly debated, but I guess in your case it could be useful?
And then in a couple years lemmy goes the way of reddit and suddenly were flooded with right wing bots and bad actors spamming lemmy with misinformstion and hate and they scream and cry whenever you try to do anything about it.
That’s not what the fediverse is for. The fediverse isn’t to be your own personal haven. However, you can use the fediverse to make a leftist instance and defederate/ban right wingers as you please.
I haven’t been on Reddit since the API fallout, but I rarely ever saw right wingers, nevermind bots.
Some of these platforms (notably xitter) have algorithms to farm rage
NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 10:37
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Oh you saw bots, they were everywhere. You just didnt realize you were interacting with bots. At least once a week I found a bot account trying to steer conversations on reddit.
What I do remember was being banned from half the subs because I posted a pro vaccine comment in the nonewnormal sub. And it wasn’t conservative subs that were banning me. It was usually leftist, slightly leftist or even completely apolotical subs with leftist moderation. And then they broadened their ban list to include pro life subreddits and anti-pitbull activism subreddits as well.
I did not get an impression that it was a right-wing site.
Twitter always was a cesspit as well, even before Elon. It was filled with leftist dreamSMP and k-pop stans who’d doxx you over misnaming a haircut in Animal Crossing. When elon bought it, it just turned into a right wing cesspit. A cesspit is still a cesspit.
Do you realize Reddit is a monolith platform and not defederated? The things happening to Reddit and other centralized platforms is exactly the reason why Fediverse exist in the first place. Those problems are what Fediverse is designed to solve. It’s surprising to see people considering Lemmy as some kind of leftwing alternative to Reddit. It’s not.
And what is that acronym stand for? There is no “kneejerk” when collective defederation, save for outright removing the instance, is the only sane method of kicking out fascists.
You’d be better asking people their opinions on issues before sticking on labels over one issue.
I call myself a conservative because I support the structure of the institution of where I reside- The United Kingdom. I support the conservation of our constitutional monarchy and unitary parliamentary democracy. I support the four nations of the United Kingdom being in such a union. I support the conservation of the NHS. I support traditional values of: God first, family second, community/country third and corporate obligations fourth.
However, I also support the Kingdom being open and accepting to those who want to work and reside here that will benefit the country in some way and not cause hindrance to others, as well as helping those fleeing to safety.
I believe we are created in God’s image and hatred based on ethnicity/race is wrong. I believe we are all sinners and thus shouldn’t see ourselves as better than each other. I believe in feeding those who cannot support themselves and uplifting those who need help. These are all stemmed in my conservative religious faith and belief.
If enough free-speech instances get defederated, then it will be the ones defederating that are left with an echo chamber.
SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 10:16
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yeah but we’ve seen with other social media platforms what happens when the conservatives come knockin’. Once the wave of conservative boomers and social outcasts comes the grifters will follow and it’s the end of the platform.
nuggie_ss@lemmings.world
on 22 Sep 10:23
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Couldn’t be further from the truth.
The fediverse is likely to split off into different sections. Some will allow people to say what they want, others won’t.
If they don’t eject the jihadist, then yes. And, frankly, I don’t know many, if any, leftists who would tolerate a jihadist, as they are just a different type of religious fundamentalist right winger.
I don’t know… just like how “black voters” are not a true homogenous voting block, neither are “MAGA” proponents all of the same ideology. There’s no rule book they all “abide” by. It’s a spectrum of ridiculous people.
And you’re missing the point. If your spectrum of ideology is up to and includes nazis… you accept nazis… making you a nazi enabler at best… or to keep it simple, a nazi.
I don’t know why y’all are thinking that you’re being slick by playing these games. This little semantic games and bad faith bullshit is well known about and documented. It’s the same strategies used nearly a 100 years ago. We already read about you, go back to history books.
Who are you talking to? See, you’ve included me in a group which i am definitely not even a part of. If this is how people like you behave, this country has no hope of reconciliation.
(I have, and would never vote for, someone like Trump, btw)
No, the whole point of the fediverse is to combat censorship from fascists.
Inviting them over there is NOT good. It’ll show more pro-fascist views and fool gullible people. And the more fascist instances there are, the harder to kick those out.
“Echo chambers” don’t exist except on fascist forums.
You’re saying you support it turning into a Nazi bar. If you want one, then go there, instead of being on Lemmy.
It’s to combat censorship. How will having ““fascists”” on the fediverse start putting in place censorship?
Inviting them over there is NOT good. It’ll show more pro-fascist views and fool gullible people. And the more fascist instances there are, the harder to kick those out.
It sounds like you’re the one wanting to enforce censorship?
You’re saying you support it turning into a Nazi bar. If you want one, then go there, instead of being on Lemmy.
I’m not talking about nazis or fascists. You were the first to mention them.
SailorFuzz@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 13:17
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why are you running so much defense for nazis? not a good look.
No, the whole point of the fediverse is to evade censorship from fascists.
“Echo chambers” don’t exist except on fascist forums.
All i see here is echo chambers because of lack of diversity. Do you think these crazies will respect freedom when they will get power in real life? These people hate “enemy” so much that they get pleasure from inflicting pain in them & will break law if it mean they are punishing the enemy. I joined here last week, rarely saw civil discussion or diversity in opinions.
If particular instances like blahaj.zone or beehaw wish to defederate them, that makes sense. But if they aren’t botting/spamming or doing things that are illegal, I don’t see a point in defederating.
In what way? One’s person “deportation to protect a nation’s sovereign borders and rule of law” is another’s “forced relocation.” But at the same time, one’s ethnic cleansing could be to another “deportation”. To some people, a marginalised group is due to an inherent minority. Another person’s marginalised group would be economic class or a traditionally suppressed group such as women. (Even then to some people, they’d claim women being expected to work instead of spending time with their families is evil corporate capitalist slavery)
You’d need specific examples.
Fijxu@programming.dev
on 22 Sep 12:58
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I was going to say this. I’m not even from the United States btw. That’s just how the fediverse and federation works.
Isn’t the point of fediverse to provide an alternative to big tech where anyone can create an instance with their own rules? Its not really about having to be subject to everyones voice. Otherwise instances wouldn’t have the ability to defederate.
And people as they got more familiar to the fediverse started either running their own or choosing instances that aligned with what they’d like to see and not see. So I see this thread more as people expressing what they’d like their instance to do when it comes to defederating or federating.
And if values don’t align then people can switch to an instance that more closely does. So its less about voice, but having options to turn to compared to centralized sites where if you dislike the CEO, algorithm, or moderation policies there isn’t much you can do other than leaving, but in the process lose access to all content and interaction.
Don’t dance around it like a coward. Say what you mean. I’m an adult, you’re an adult. You came here to express yourself, don’t get shy now.
nuggie_ss@lemmings.world
on 22 Sep 11:10
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I’ve said everything I mean and gave you more than enough information to answer your question.
If you still can’t understand then you need to improve your reading comprehension.
I genuinely cannot help you here. I am sorry.
FridaySteve@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 11:18
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Go look up the definition for dogwhistle. That word you used is a dogwhistle indicative of an extreme religious right wing ideology. That’s why you won’t explain it - you can’t. You don’t know why you’re afraid, you just are. That’s indoctrination. Everyone here understands what you mean, you’re just terrified of explaining it.
That “who, me?” shit is just cowardice. I haven’t presented any arguments because you haven’t expressed anything to argue against. You posted a dogwhistle and got called out. Go find your tribe.
DarkAri@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 11:35
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I’ll try to clear it up, nobody likes you because you are a terrible and evil person who normalizes the victimization of a group of people who have an insanely high suicide rate. Instead of having principles, you are perfectly okay with ruining the lives of millions of Americans so you can support your lardo in chief, who isn’t even going to give you your white ethnostate that you want so bad anyways.
The spectrum of antagonistic opinions is much wider than just hateful opinions. There are people who are totally fine with trans, but consider the minimum age for HRT should be higher, or it should have solid medical proofs of dysphoria actually happening, or people who consider that there are way too many people taking HRT nowadays who don’t really need it and are only tricked into it by the influence of social media, etc. It’s very easy to label them all as fascists and it’s happening all the time.
pewgar_seemsimandroid@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 12:01
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You chose a pretty poor example. People don’t spend years seeing doctors about transitioning without being slightly very gender disphoric. One trans dude I know literally had so many hoops to jump through including having multiple kids before they could finally convince their doctors to prescribe HRT because the doctors kept saying “well you might change your mind though! What if you want kids? What if you want to breastfeed? What if you just don’t like the way you look and that’s why you’re trying to transition?” Etc.
Or just look at the viral tweet of the one trans woman being like “yeah I offered a single hormone pill to my buddies as a joke and they all recoiled in horror”
A better example for holding actual debate would be arguing over how to approach the housing shortage in America, or the best approach to reducing the wealth gap. Basically anything where you can agree on the premise and debate policy. This is usually how I talk to republicans at work or in my family, I focus purely on policy because generally people can agree on problems that they can see, and if you can avoid the common turns of phrase that political pundits use you can probably even agree on some policy ideas. I had a brilliant conversation with some conservatives at work recently regarding insurance where we basically were all in agreement of “holy shit something has to change here now that we have multiple disasters a year wiping out entire cities and counties”
You chose a pretty poor example. People don’t spend years seeing doctors about transitioning without being slightly very gender disphoric.
Aren’t people who are NOT medically gender dysphoric able to receive HRT nowadays just because they want? I personally get an impression of trans becoming more like a subculture, and that teens can start transitioning just because it’s cool. Like, what was an emo and other kinds of scene kids in 2000s, now trans-culture occupies that niche to some extent. Which naturally raises concerns since it has way more serious consequences than just wearing a certain cloth and makeup.
Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org
on 22 Sep 15:49
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Aren’t people who are NOT medically gender dysphoric able to receive HRT nowadays
In civilised countries, yes. And that is a good thing. Not having dysphoria does not mean that someone is not trans and this gatekeeping is a huge part of the problem,
teens can start transitioning just because it’s cool.
This literally doesn’t happen and is just fear mongering.
Also it’s presenting transitioning as the only choice. Guess what, not transitioning and going through puberty with the hormones that your body produces is also a choice.
Interesting that comments like yours creep up in a time where the Trumptard propaganda machine tries to vilify trans people.
In civilised countries, yes. And that is a good thing. Not having dysphoria does not mean that someone is not trans and this gatekeeping is a huge part of the problem,
Imo, it’s best to gatekeep it as hard as possible for teens and make it a choice for 18+. For mostly the same reasons as many other limitations for kids/teens. So, if you’re 14, you can only get HRT if you have seriously thoroughly medically proven gender dysphoria, but for 18+ you can just have it as a choice.
This literally doesn’t happen and is just fear mongering.
Okay, hope you’re right, I can’t really judge what’s going on in America since I’m from country where trans are extremely rare. It’s probably an impression formed by social media that in America trans is almost like a teen subculture.
Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org
on 22 Sep 18:21
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Again, not transitioning is also a choice, a choice informed by ideology and forced upon the child. Anti-scientific bullshit.
Also, there are just as many trans people in your country as anywhere else. They are probably oppressed enough to not come out the closet.
Again, not transitioning is also a choice, a choice informed by ideology and forced upon the child. Anti-scientific bullshit.
Doing nothing to the condition that was unrecognized for most of the human history and nowadays is still not widely known or still being questioned can also be inertia or cautiousness rather than forced ideology. It’s only anti-scientific if people get to know all the science behind it and proceed to deny it. But in my previous post I don’t call to deny it for minors I only meant that minors shouldn’t be able to do it on a whim, without proofs of condition being present. And for those without condition, not transitioning is not a choice in the same sense, because it doesn’t carry negative consequences, while trying to transition actually can.
Also, there are just as many trans people in your country as anywhere else. They are probably oppressed enough to not come out the closet.
This is also a way to explain it. No way to check which one is real, but it is certainly a possibility.
I don’t work in healthcare and I have not needed gender affirming care myself so I can only rely on what I hear from the trans folks I know, and none of them had an easy time getting the healthcare they need. Everything I’ve heard indicates that it takes multiple years to begin receiving any kind of gender affirming healthcare outside of psychological so it’s not something people are going to go through on a whim. They have to be feeling a fairly significant amount of dysphoria to go through that much medical gaslighting and reach the first actually medical step of a prescription for HRT. But transgender, just like gender and sexuality is a spectrum. Some folks don’t want to do more than socially transition, some folks want to go all in but some will skip some procedures, and some are absolutely 100% and need to completely transition
There have however been actual pushes to try to create discorse exactly matching what you said “I’m not against trans people, I just think it’s too easy for kids to permanently modify their bodies for a fad!” And of course the more extreme version “you send you kid to school and they home fully transitioned! And if you try to do anything about it they tell you you’re endangering your child!” So definitely don’t trust anyone trying to spread this discourse
There have however been actual pushes to try to create discorse exactly matching what you said “I’m not against trans people, I just think it’s too easy for kids to permanently modify their bodies for a fad!”
Good way to deal with it is to explain it’s not true. Bad way to deal with it is to label people with those opinions as fascists and block them immediately.
Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org
on 22 Sep 18:29
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Good way to deal with it is to explain it’s not true.
Nope. By the time you are done refuting their bullshit they will have spouted ten more lies. The best thing to do is deplatforming.
This only happens when you are dealing with someone who is pushing the agenda or spread certain narrative on purpose. This is always a small minority of people, and there are way more people that simply believe their agenda and not have anyone to explain them it might not be true. It might actually be a tactic to have professional posters who never give up even if proven wrong and thus make you feel like it’s pointless to argue.
Only if the judgement of whether someone is a fascist is always perfect and flawless. But in practice there are way too many false positives, and the accumulation of them leads to increasing isolation from uncomfortable opinions, which makes ones mind even less frustration-tolerant in the long run which leads to even more false positives in future judgements.
You could qualify it as that if the consequences I described were purely hypothetical, but they were already reached and demonstrated in practice countless times.
Often? I was thinking of some high-profile examples and I think a good one would be the Godot drama, where the moderation team accused users of being “fascists,” “bigots,” and similar terms, and proceeded to ban them when those users asked to keep political agenda out of the project.
DarkAri@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 11:26
nextcollapse
They have like 1000 websites like Facebook and Twitter to go to, we need our own spaces. I think we should try to block them so they don’t burn this platform with their stupid bullshit.
No it’s really not. I signed up at Blahaj specifically because it’s a safe space from losers like you.
DarkAri@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 12:52
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Most of it is. its funny how almost every website licks the balls of maga, almost every algorithm pushes your nonsense constantly and yet you ended up here. Why can’t you go stink up the 1000 websites you have full of boomers and Nazis?
The problem with you people is that you view anyone who isn’t kissing your ass as a nazi.
I’m going to ignore you now because you will argue as long as I respond.
GeeDubHayduke@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Sep 12:39
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Begone, goose stepper
moopet@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Sep 10:41
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safe from the madness and censorship of the fediverse.
Sounds like they explicitly don’t want to federate. Unless it’s a parody site, I guess.
Ilovethebomb@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Sep 11:24
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It’s entirely possible it’s a spectacularly successful trolling mission by one person.
Seriously, look how many people are up in arms about an instance with one user.
Regrettable_incident@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 11:48
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Yeah and why the big deal? I didn’t notice any signs saying the fediverse is only for lefties. I may not agree with conservatives but that doesn’t mean I think they should be excluded.
People don’t want to federate with MAGA-themed instances.
Dragonstaff@leminal.space
on 22 Sep 12:17
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Sure they should. Their entire online presence revolves around hurting people they dislike.Has there ever been a forum they contributed positively too?
Too many people give these jackholes the benefit of the doubt. “They don’t think trans people should exist. I don’t agree, but we have to hear them out” is a cowards line that puts their freedumb of speech above trans people’s right to exist.
I hope we’ve learned that lesson by now. Sure, wait for them to break a rule or whatever. Maybe this is just one guy and maybe it’s just going to sit there. But the moment they start talking—because we all know what they’re going to say—give them the bums’ rush.
Regrettable_incident@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 13:03
nextcollapse
Oh hey no I don’t think we have to hear them out. Especially not if they’re coming out with hate speech - that shit should always be smacked down hard. When they start doing that, we can defed the fuckers - but they haven’t done that yet.
Maybe I’m too soft, I just don’t wanna see lemmy turn into an echo chamber.
Bad faith answer, though. MAGA cunts aren’t “conservatives”, they are outright fascists.
If you want conservative, you’d have to look at people who just want the status quo. In other words, the more milquetoast Christian democrats.
The fediverse is for ‘everyone’, but that doesn’t mean we put up with fascists. It’s only for people who aren’t batshit insane. In other words, not for fascists and transphobes.
If you identify with conservatism, as in, going to Church, wanting a traditional family yourself – by all means you’re welcome! so long as that means you let others also have their own life that might not involve those, and don’t hate or question their lifestyle.
but if you’re a fascist or transphobe, then get the fuck out here and go touch grass
The good thing is that all sane instances can just defederate and we won’t have to deal with them. They can use the software all they want, and we can shut them out from our spaces all we want.
I’m not sure how effective that’ll be in the long-term though, if the less politically aware instances don’t block them, or don’t realise in time. They’ll attempt to chip bit by bit away.
Regrettable_incident@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 13:08
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Yeah I guess I failed to distinguish between maga and conservatives. I don’t want to see lemmy become an echo chamber, and usually you can disagree but debate with conservatives. Fascists, not so much. Don’t get me wrong, I think Nazis should be stomped online and out in the world - I just haven’t seen anything yet from this instance to justify that.
I actually feel kinda sorry for oldskool conservatives - I don’t agree with em, but they must feel politically homeless these days.
But yeah, bigots can fuck right off.
Trainguyrom@reddthat.com
on 22 Sep 13:42
nextcollapse
Yeah I guess I failed to distinguish between maga and conservatives
To be fair, the entire Republican party seems to be all about blurring that line right now. I think the big challenge is Trump awakened something in folks who haven’t been politically active in a very long time, and because they haven’t been politically active, they aren’t coming into politics with a clear ideology or set of policies they want to see passed other than “I like trump!” Which is probably a big part of why we just have a bunch of attempts at turning his presidency into a dictatorship and state-sponsored racism as the only clear policy trump actually cares about, and any policies that are directly enriching large businesses are just a case of those with deep pockets cozying up to folks in power with loose morals.
But let’s be real, the Republican party hasn’t been about conservatism for quite a while. They’ve definitely been coasting off of pure brand recognition with occasional injections of christofascism and state sponsored violence against minorities to help maintain their old jim crow roots. They’ve successfully cultivated a culture of being Republican, so they can do what they want policy-wise and still reliably win around a third of the elections in the country without resorting to voter suppression, and they can reliably win about half of the elections in the country with voter suppression
Regrettable_incident@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 14:42
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I think the big challenge is Trump awakened something in folks who haven’t been politically active in a very long time, and because they haven’t been politically active, they aren’t coming into politics with a clear ideology or set of policies they want to see passed other than “I like trump!”
Yeah I wanna slightly amend that - I think their ideology is certainly “I like trump” but I think the reasons behind that are they see him as a big strong leader who validates and legitimises their prejudices - and will allow them to act on those prejudices. Suddenly the hate they felt for their immigrant neighbours, or their fear of gay people, whatever - suddenly they have a leader saying that’s okay and he’s now supporting their discrimination with military deployment in US cities.
This is how fascism happens - it’s not always forced on a population, a lot of times a lot of people want it.
And the oldskool republican party was essentially a corporate mouthpiece.
Scary fuckin times, mate. The snowball is rolling down the hill and it’s growing and it’s accelerating.
I used to be one of those oldschool conservatives. I’m much more progressive now, but what I do think helps, is the following.
Fascists won’t listen to progressives. So what will pull them out of that black hole, is having them listen to more ‘boring’ people, but without the opportunity to overtalk them. Let fascists listen to normal views and don’t let fascists take over the discussion. Youtube videos with comments disabled, PDFs by anonymous authors, and so on, that can help.
The common man’s best ally is reaching out to the milquetoasts, and having the fascists listen to them and you while also not listening to them. Never yield to their beliefs; have a red line beyond which you won’t discuss with them. Use their own tactics against them.
I used to know one. Whenever they still wanted to discuss their batshit crazy views, I told them I declined discussing that stuff with them, and wouldn’t interact with them unless if they could shut up about that.
It usually worked (though not 100%), so I consider that a general-ish success.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 13:16
nextcollapse
Maga is conservatism. Stop trying to separate the two, they are the same fucking thing.
As I mentioned, the status quo. So basically the average Joe that doesn’t care much either way, isn’t gonna hate or support, but also not apathetic. Basically people who just want stability, not fascism (which is inherently unstable in that it perpetuates a state-led chaos and terror).
As for nature, the whole “X is UnNattural” is nonsense fabricated by religious fundamentalists, tbh. Nature is wilder than whatever they can cook up.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 14:58
nextcollapse
I’ve seen lots of people lately attempting to distance conservatism from MAGA, and I’m sorry but it has failed. You need to extricate yourself from the hateful ideology that you (presumably) subscribe to.
Lol, no. Reactionaries violently upend and attempt to revert to medievalism, conservatism does nothing; the latter might as well be somewhat apathetic.
MAGA cunts aren’t “conservatives”, they are outright fascists.
Conservatism IS fascism, with “nicer words”… Until they seize power, then the nice words stop.
real_squids@sopuli.xyz
on 22 Sep 13:39
nextcollapse
Why tolerate the intolerant? They can host whatever they want, but there’s no reason not to exclude them if they intend on bringing harm. Tbh the word “excluded” doesn’t really fit, exclusion would be like someone getting kicked out of a bar, defederating would be more like the bouncer not letting you in.
At the end of the day even if it’s gonna be defederated by every other instance, nobody’s gonna forbid them from starting their own “bar” like the one shown, which means they’re not really excluded from the fediverse.
Regrettable_incident@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 14:47
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I don’t think we should tolerate them. This is what we always hear from them when we tell them to fuck off - how many times have we seen “So much for the tolerant left!” Yeah, we are tolerant of pretty much anything that doesn’t harm others - aside from intolerance itself.
I dunno, I just don’t like the idea of defeding ppl just because of their political leanings. I’d rather wait til they start spewing hateful shit and then defed the fuckers.
But I can understand ppl who wanna keep lemmy clean of bigots. I just think we gotta wait til they show their colours then kick them to the curb. That’s me, though, I respect that others don’t feel the same.
So super short version is a conservative dude or three tried to create /c/conservative and were immediately drowned out and made fun of, then they transferred moderation to others who now use it to make fun of republicans
thethunderwolf@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Sep 14:07
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it is a parody seemingly, according to @gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de’s comment
good thing they want to be free from the fediverse, because the fediverse should definitely be free from this shit.
defederate fascists.
DarkAri@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 11:24
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I hate how maga people call themselves patriots. They are the most unamerican people ever. Everything they stand for is in direct opposition to the America ideals.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
on 22 Sep 11:53
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They are so immersed in the Conservative Propaganda Machine that they are literally living in an alternative reality from 2/3 of America, and the entire rest of the planet. They have created all these imaginary enemies attacking them on every front, and they think THEY are the ones living real life, and the rest of us side with their imaginary enemy.
And for some reason, the “intelligent” people that we have elected to protect us from such silliness, has decided to pretend that the MAGA nonsense, treason, and corruption, should be respected, and indulged.
They remain ‘united’ through fear. The most effective method to disarm them is to aggressively change their algorithms.
DarkAri@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 12:47
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Yes I’m aware. I’m a trans person living in the deep south trying to escape. Fuck them.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
on 22 Sep 13:34
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Good luck to you, my friend. You have far more friends out here than you think. Look for us, we’ll help you.
real_squids@sopuli.xyz
on 22 Sep 13:08
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they are literally living in an alternative reality
Hmm, reminds me of a country that starts with R that the current US president’s trying to save.
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de
on 22 Sep 13:39
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They have created all these imaginary enemies attacking them on every front, and they think THEY are the ones living real life, and the rest of us side with their imaginary enemy.
I think that their ENEMY is actually poverty, i.e. many people struggle economically to make a living. This is due to the progress of time (automation leads to fewer jobs), but since time itself is invisible to many people, they try to find a material, outside enemy. And that’s why they blame (brown) immigration and queer people, because they appeared at the same time (in public, in the case of queer people) as the decline of living standards. So people see that and conflate correlation with causation, and blame these groups.
What’s important to me is whether people think about the situation and try to make good conclusions and proposals. What matters to me is whether MAGA actually tries to improve people’s living condition, instead of just mindlessly trying to hurt people. If they actually try to improve things, i can talk to them and find meaningful paths forward. If they’re just trying to hurt people, such a thing is impossible. So to me, it very much matters why they’re doing this. That’s what i’m researching, and also how to make meaningful plans that are in their interest that actually bring the country forward, instead of just creating more difficulties.
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de
on 22 Sep 13:46
nextcollapse
I know this is a lot of text all at once, but while i’m here, let me tell you that i think that it’s important that there’s a heavy investment in human spaceflight and especially in settling mars.
I’m not saying that for some delusional reasons of science fiction, but because of the very real and very heavy economic advantages that it has. A massive spaceflight program would create a lot of jobs (if you invest $1b in spaceflight, where does the money go? it goes towards companies that try to build the rockets and necessary machinery, and a large part of that money goes towards jobs and construction materials, so the money continues to circulate in the country.)
And jobs are one of the two very important things that people need to live: food and jobs. Let me illustrate this:
As time progresses forward, we have more resources available (because our production systems work better, as they get improved all the time). but at the same time, a lot of production systems get automated and that reduces the number of jobs. Since people need jobs, new parts of the market need to be developed continuously.
What i’m saying is that if there’s a massive push towards spaceflight, somebody will have to build all of the necessary machinery, equipment, and such, and that would create a lot of jobs. It’s especially important for american people to have jobs, because americans are typically biased towards enterpreneurship and such, and that’s only possible when there’s business to be done. i think that’s a very important aspect of american society. also, martian human settlement would have the advantage that there’s real progress (new lands being explored) and that would also have some positive consequences.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
on 22 Sep 14:11
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While I think that your first section makes a spectacularly excellent point that I had not considered before, your second section broke my brain.
Section one: Excellent point. As Trickle Down Economics spread, and life in America slowly declined as inflation/cost of living steadily outpaced incomes at an increasingly speed, the conservatives managed to blame the problems on liberals, minorities, and immigrants. I hadn’t looked at it that way, as an excuse why Trickle Down wasn’t fixing everything, but it is absolutely true.
Section 2: You are still trying to figure out if the MAGAs motivations are valid or not? Did you just become conscious a month ago? Because it has been apparent that MAGA is about nothing but money and control since they came on the scene a decade ago. Since then, they have become indelibly tied to treason, corruption, pedophilia, racism, misogyny, ignorance, stupidity, and virtuosic incompetence. Bad Faith is their core value.
And you are still doing your research? Dude…
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de
on 22 Sep 15:06
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Because it has been apparent that MAGA is about nothing but money and control since they came on the scene a decade ago. Since then, they have become indelibly tied to treason, corruption, pedophilia, racism, misogyny, ignorance, stupidity, and virtuosic incompetence. Bad Faith is their core value.
the leadership yes, but the people voting for them? I’m not so sure.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
on 23 Sep 08:40
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If you support it with your words, your actions, and your vote, then you own it. MAGA followers are every bit as bad as the leaders.
see what you’re missing is that they stand for amerikkkan ideals
DarkAri@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 12:45
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Most of America has disagreed with them for idk 150 years now.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
on 22 Sep 12:32
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Which is why the opposition should reclaim the flag. It has become a religious fetish to MAGA, and the Left has to take it back, and reintroduce it as a symbol of Freedom, not treason pedophilia, and corruption.
DarkAri@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 12:43
nextcollapse
They do the same thing with religion, they try to grift it while being exactly the opposite of what Christians believed in the past. The church has always been against slavery, even in like the 1500s, they aren’t perfect, but they are way away from Nazis. In America protestant white Christians poll as the group that hates human rights the most. They are also probably the least likely to help the poor or volunteer in a hospital or something. It’s just another grift for their fascist bullshit. Hitler did the same thing. He pretended to care about whatever his crowd cared about. It was all about power and always was.
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 23 Sep 02:16
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The best way to defeat a huge baby is to take its blankie and become the baby yourself.
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de
on 22 Sep 13:34
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Everything they stand for is in direct opposition to the America ideals.
I beg to differ. The “american ideals” are to be economically prosperous, to open and run your own business, to take what is other’s (indian land), without regrets or looking back.
What i’m saying is that’s exactly what Trump thinks he’s doing. He’s not actually helping american businesses but he and his voters probably think that’s what he’s doing. So, the people themselves see it as very american.
DarkAri@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 22 Sep 14:28
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The American ideas are freedom, liberty, and justice for all. It’s democracy and freedom from religion. It’s about rejecting kings and arming the common man.
Nah, truth be told, MAGA is about as American as apple pie. Historically speaking, that is.
DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Sep 20:58
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Theory vs Practice
Christianity in bible vs Christians
Communism in theory vs “Communists” in practice
Its like every ideology ever. People preach their scripture, but never actually practice it.
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 23 Sep 02:11
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You should check out the history and current reality of USA sometime.
DarkAri@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 23 Sep 11:47
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What is that supposed to mean? America was founded by people who basically invented the concept of human rights as a legal term. I think England had a few rights in their constitution like the right to a Jury trial and stuff. America wasn’t perfect. People don’t understand that no slavery wasn’t really an option before the industrial revolution because slavery was the industry. Not that it makes it okay, just that you’d get conquered by literally everyone else if you didn’t have them. This is why every ancient society had slaves. It’s not just because they were evil, they were in ways, just like modern humans are in ways. It’s that societies which couldn’t defend themselves were enslaved themselves or absorbed into someone’s religious authoritarianism. Yet there is also ways they are morally superior to us, like, you used to be able to retire, to own land, to warn real money as a normal person that didn’t just evaporate away. Most governments used to only have a couple hundred laws at most, now there are hundreds of thousands of laws for governments to tear apart your life with.
We have progressed in ways sure, but also regressed in other ways. Modern humans are monotheistic. Much of the world polices which imaginary God you are allowed to worship. Humans have about as much dignity these days as slaves did in the classical world. Maybe a few more rights, particularly for minorities.
The U.S and France was the first country to actually escape full blown theocracy in 1500 years. The U.S and France were the first country where most people were equal under the law. Yes they thought Africans and Indians were less then human, but it was progress. The U.S abandoned slavery as soon as it had industry, so did Britain and most other countries.
The past 150 years, after the civil war has been a steady progress of states losing power, particularly in America. Your average American for the last 150 years despised government surveillance, they despised even the state and enforcers of the state. They despised taxes. They were almost unanimously in their support for free speech, protest, and free media. Hillary Clinton is the first candidate to even suggest censorship without getting laughed out yet it still cost her the election, Trump is losing much of his support because of the anti American agenda he has, but America has become quite stupid in recent years.
Much of this is because of economic hardship. Psychologists have known for some time that when people are hungry they develop mild schizophrenic type symptoms, like finding patterns where there are none, superstitious thinking, having a heightened sense of fear. This is essentially a way for animals to survive when things get hard. Americans are becoming dumber and more schizo because 40% of Americans don’t have jobs, and our country has no welfare, 90% of the country has no liquid of excess wealth. 50% of the country is in poverty. We are entering the phase of hyperinflation. For the past 10 years or so inflation has been around 7-15%. By the end of the year, we will be spending 600 billion on interest payments on U.S bonds, with much of it coming up to be refinanced within 5 years. That is about 1/4 of all tax income, and about 1/8 of the federal budget.
Yet our state is more concerned with mass surveillance, imperialism, mass migration, more taxes on the poor, less for the rich. Maybe things wouldn’t be so bad if the rich people of the world weren’t doing nearly everything in their power to destroy America, because they hate liberalism.
Why do they hate liberalism so much? Because they see the world as being overpopulated which is true. They see humanity as a mold on the earth, which is also partially true. They hate the old world where the little guy is not being managed. If ever there was a time to unify, it is now. They will use religion or anything else to try to get there way. If you have even a single bit of hate in your heart or a weakness in your moral character, they will use it against you. Any stupid regis belief you have, they will use it against you. The right move right now is to vote Democrat, at least for your own sake, and to try to break up the power of the state and the rich so we can put them on trial some day. They are trying to decide us because people are waking up. They are taking advantage of our psychology and human nature to divide us. This is what I mean by weakness in your morality. Not religious morality. That won’t cut it anymore. It has too many flaws, I mean true morality, as you know in your heart what is right. Most people do if they listen to it. This determines the future. The way your neighbors see you. We cannot survive unless we get our neighbors out of this mind control cult of the state. We have to get them to stop watching their propagandists, and eventually we all need to stop voting for their politicians and giving them false legitimacy. It’s ha
Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 12:24
nextcollapse
I am not even maga or American but it’s nice to see freedom of speech and multiple different opinions in the left infested internet echo chamber
GeeDubHayduke@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Sep 12:30
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“Boy, am i glad I’ve got somewhere to consume my fascism in peace!”
Yeah, these people are nuts, its good to see crazies from opposite groups. I will check how good Lemmy will becomes after year or two. IG at least it will not be a echo chamber. Maybe then they will notice opposition have same pattern as them. Then hopefully they will become more open minded
We had a reconstruction program as well as military governors in a handful of States down there after the Civil War, grants was pretty checked out and his administration was super corrupt, and his successor in the 1876 election, Hayes lost. They had those military Governors send competing slates of electors saying they won and there is a big brewhaha and it was decided they would allow the Republicans to steal that election with Hayes as president for ending reconstruction.
You wouldn't believe the amount of straight propaganda I have to filter out when crossposting from there, it's another reason I can't automate it. No way I could trust automation to sufficiently filter that crap out. Russian propaganda sites like RT always seems to crop up over there with odd urls like "swentir[dot]site"
::: spoiler Why am I cross-posting .ml content?
>
I cross-post from .ml to the nearest relevant non-.ml comm to reduce the influence of .ml comms and indirectly, the instance as a whole, to make it an easier decision for other instance admins to defederate because one key reason I identified that admins don't want to defederate is because .ml still has some very large comms and some niche comms.
"If you don't support Russia then you just don't understand geopolitics" ~dessalines, .ml admin, dev https://lemmy.world/post/27352415
And so so much documentation on clear heavy handed censorship and bias also on the link. So much I can't even put them all here because this comment would be really long.
I believe the behavior of its admins (the main admins are Lemmy devs) does harm to the overall growth of the Lemmy-verse and maybe even the Thrediverse (since Lemmy kinda kicked off the Thrediverse) because of its association with the devs of Lemmy and their insistence to use .ml as their personal political platform to spread harmful propaganda
On the outside, bringing up Lemmy frequently leads to comments like "Lemmy? Isn't that the place with a bunch of tankies?" Or "Tried Lemmy, but found it full of pro Russia crap so I left". The best way forward from that I see is to either widely defederate from .ml like the rest of the Triad, or pressure them to put a fair and unbiased as possible admin team.
:::
Ah I see now, mere one way traffic doesn't contribute to an instance; voting, commenting and posting to its comms does, which I ofc don't do in any shape or form.
Which makes the crusade against devs odd.
Fundamental misunderstanding, my problem stems from the fact they run an instance in an official capacity and use it to push their authoritarian ideology. As covered (and documented here) in my spoiler above
Oh you go on hexbear.net? Thought they'd be hated by you!
Not really, did you know Lemmy actually has a really good search function? Leagues better than Reddits own. Oh they def do and I find it funny how often I come up over there on the Lemmy-version of 4chan though LMAO
I don't, not sure where you picked that up at. I consider it to be a Tankie instance through and through as defined by:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
Tankie is a pejorative label generally applied to authoritarian communists, especially those who support or defend acts of repression by such regimes, their allies, or deny the occurrence of the events thereof.
I've seen all manner of authoritarian propaganda, from pro-DPRK "They're not a brutal dictatorship, it's just western propaganda!" To pro-Russia "Ukraine is full of Nazis and Russia is just trying to protect themselves from NATO!" To pro-CCP "Censorship is actually good!" All of which is documented on the megathread linked previously
Yeah so official they wanted world to be the top so they weren't the official one...
If they didn't want, they could've ran lemmy.ml from alt accounts so nobody would associate it with them. Then it would just be another triad instance and nobody would care. But as also covered in the spoiler you didn't read, they use this position to their advantage to push their authoritarianism further
Oh lol yea I suppose I did, ig that's what happens when you do throwaway jokes 🤣
And I don't trust anything posted on meanwhile on grad
Hm, yea, whatever excuse you need to tell yourself to ignore evidence in front of your eyes. Not like most of what I've documented has direct link back to the source where possible or anything ¯\(ツ)/¯
LMAO that doesn't even make sense, they're direct links, they'll take you to the source thread if it exists. Which, for most of my documentation, it does. You can click that little "Show Context" button/link and read each thread for yourself and gain this mystical context you seek
Ah yes, because linking can never be out of context!
If you refuse to do even basic investigation into information you're being given to verify it's veracity, then how are you so sure the tankies you run with are giving you good info?
If only your crusade was also against lw considering they're okay with even worse transphobes
The LW admins aren't in the modlog nearly constantly like .ml admins. They crop up from time to time but only to do deal with blatant spam, advertisers, instance wide rule breaking in abandoned comms, excessive troll/misinformation spreading accounts etc. They aren't pushing a particular ideology, narrative or political agenda. Unlike on .ml.
I regularly see them site-banning accounts for transphobia nor have a noticed a transphobia problem, troll crop up and are dealt with accordingly. Also - See Nutomics transphobia hereand part 2 here
I see lw more often banning or removing than ml, usually ml only does temp while world does permanent, and for ml it’s users going in specially to get banned.
One of lw top mods is currently doing transphobia and may or may not get any response from the admins
I see lw more often banning or removing than ml, usually ml only does temp while world does permanent
For one, LW is 3x the size of .ml, naturally there are going to be more actions taken compared to .ml. it's equivalent to people complaining about how "crime is so much worse in NYC then [Some Small Town]".
Two, on .world moderators mod and admins admin, as it should be. By the time a .world admin is issuing something down it's because a particular user has already been problematic in individual comms and getting temp bans already OR it's a user spamming, posting ads or other harmful content (e.g. propaganda, misinformation (and even then, they let it go for a while longer than they should IMO))
Three, there's no pattern of abuse to push a particular agenda, as I have demonstrated with .ml admins. At worst, you can drum up some poor decisions
One of lw top mods is currently doing transphobia and may or may not get any response from the admins
Absolutely problematic, Jordanlund should be removed. That being said JL is a mod, not an admin at the end of the day.
It does not prove systemic abuse of a respected position of a leading instance to push an agenda, unlike what is proven with the .ml admins.
While it's been 5 days, the LW admins should be given the time needed. Remember, it's essentially a bunch of humans in volunteer positions, it's not full time employment and removing such an integrated mod with large comms is no trivial task
They have acknowledged they are investigating and will take action.
So far it’s according to you it’s okay for lw to be worse because it’s larger, but ml is still the lead instance even though they said it shouldn’t be and while they haven’t done anything about jl the entire time it’s okay?
And still according to you ml is the NK instance but still not bad enough to manually mirror content for reasons even though it’s just the NK tankie instance.
This is just one of many awful mods lw has which hasn’t been doing anything about they just seem to leave once called out or allowed to continue because reasons. See flying squid and news massive admitted zionists mods.
We’re over a week in to their supposed investigation and the only place they’ve said anything about it is db0 not the initial post show casing jls awful behavior to users.
I didn’t say anything about the code, Nutomic is an admin on .ml just as much as the rest of them
You did again in this thread on why it was okay in your mind to use said NK instance material, again odd considering how much you seem to hate said devs but 🤷, I’m not the one on a crusade to get people off not the largest instance just the test one for reasons
So far it's according to you it's okay for lw to be worse because it's larger, but ml is still the lead instance even though they said it shouldn't be and while they haven't done anything about jl the entire time it's okay?
You misunderstood completely, or more likely, twisting words to suit your narrative. It's not worse, because there is no systemic pattern of abuse by the admins to push an agenda. As has been demonstrated with the .ml admins
LW admins don't have the credentials that .ml admins do of being the devs. LW is the largest and should be held to a certain standard. Being the admins of .ml and main Lemmy devs holds them to an even higher standard. Average people will go "Lemmy.ml? Oh it's an instance run by the developers themselves?" and forever have the association that lemmy.ml IS Lemmy therefore their harmful authoritarianism gets associated with all of Lemmy.
Even more insidious, quite a few instances that defederate from 2/3rds of the Triad don't hold the same to .ml for many reason among them fear of retaliation.
And still according to you ml is the NK instance but still not bad enough to manually mirror content for reasons even though it's just the NK tankie instance.
I already admitted it to being a throwaway joke, if you can't get over that oh well ¯\(ツ)/¯ They're a Tankie instance instance through and through as per the wikipedia entry posted above.
This is just one of many awful mods lw has which hasn't been doing anything about they just seem to leave once called out or allowed to continue because reasons. See flying squid and news massive admitted zionists mods.
Wherever you stand on FS, he hasn't been a factor for Months now. As for these other "Zionist mods" where's the receipts?
We're over a week in to their supposed investigation and the only place they've said anything about it is db0 not the initial post show casing jls awful behavior to users.
Again. LW, like nearly every other instance, is run by volunteers and donations. 5-10 business days for any business/paid service to make a major decision is what most people come to expect. And you want to hold people running a non-profit volunteer driven instance run in spare time to an even faster timeline than businesses are? That's asinine.
You did again in this thread on why it was okay in your mind to use said NK instance material, again odd considering how much you seem to hate said devs but 🤷, I'm not the one on a crusade to get people off not the largest instance just the test one for reasons
Twisitng words again, you said "There's a transphobia problem eith LW" I said "Not really because of my observations, but .ml does having an actual transphobe on the admin team here's the receipts" then you went "I thought code was code!" At which point I clarified, "he's on the admin team and that is what I was referring to and nothing about his code contributions"
And then here we are with you attempting to twist words to suit your narrative
Oh cool, it’s just a joke saying it’s the NK instance. Which no you didn’t you still tried to play off wasn’t said. But also on a crusade to crush it? Weird coincidence there.
I brought up flying squid as like all the troublesome mods left on their own not removed after numerous issues.
Right it’s only been years jl has been like this, totally fair to let the admins continue to leave them there even though are more authoritarian than ml.
Twisitng words again, you said “There’s a transphobia problem eith LW” I said “Not really because of my observations, but .ml does having an actual transphobe on the admin team here’s the receipts” then you went “I thought code was code!” At which point I clarified, “he’s on the admin team and that is what I was referring to and nothing about his code contributions”
No this is me pointing out the same similarities others have while also using your own words for why it’s okay for you to use it to siphon content, even though it’s from that dirty tankie place.
It’s just fun watching the logic here trying to go all in on both hating lemmy devs but using lemmy. Massive conundrum
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 23 Sep 02:14
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How about “israel”, saudi arabia, etc.?
ShellMonkey@piefed.socdojo.com
on 22 Sep 13:00
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Is there a handy list somewhere to defed from? I don't expect them to gain any traction unless they had an existing user base before, but would be nice to keep communal running tab.
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de
on 22 Sep 13:18
nextcollapse
damn, i gotta check out that place later. i wonder how MAGA will interact with the fediverse. like, how can you be anarchistic and bootlicking at the same time?
I think a couple troll accounts sprang up on instance after my post, the actual admin though is seemingly a serious right-winger with all the trimming that entails. But does seem to be allowing those to exist ig for "free speech" lol
LitTheFox0@pawb.social
on 22 Sep 19:34
nextcollapse
I also ended up doing the same thing, because I refuse to do business with an organization that would support clear-cutting of forests, especially those located on the east coast of the land down under that are known to have koalas inhabiting them.
bitwolf@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Sep 14:57
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Per number 3, sounds like it’s welcoming to counter culture
Goodmorningsunshine@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 15:37
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The most idiotic, worthless, meaningless, unabashedly moronic space in the Lemmy universe has appeared! Great.
PixelPilgrim@lemmings.world
on 22 Sep 17:45
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Good to see maga entering the fediverse take away power and capitol from corporations
stabby_cicada@slrpnk.net
on 22 Sep 17:48
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There are more comments in this thread alone than this MAGA site will probably ever host. (Trolls and spammers motivated by this thread don’t count 😆 )
And honestly? The biggest takeaway from these comments is how many users don’t understand the difference between a protocol and a platform.
SethTaylor@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 17:58
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meep_launcher@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Sep 18:38
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Hot take (?):
It’s fantastic that there is a branch of MAGA who hates the corporate Internet as much as we do.
TheJesusaurus@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Sep 18:49
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They hate it because the corpos aren’t bending the knee ENOUGH to dear leader
meep_launcher@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Sep 18:54
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The enemy of my enemy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
zalgotext@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Sep 19:56
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I don’t think that applies if the enemy of your enemy is a Nazi/Nazi sympathizer
drunkpostdisaster@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 20:04
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But the enemy is also a nazi
DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Sep 20:49
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In Man in the High Castle, the resistance had to help a nazi officer stay alive in order to stop an even worse nazi from nuking the entire world.
spoiler
Basically, someone did a coup against hitler and the successor accused Imperial Japan of killing hitler, and he wanted to start nuking Japanese-occupied territories, but the resistance helped coverup a scandal by the nazi-American John Smith in which he tried to coverup his son’s illness to avoid the gestapo “euthanizing” him. Basically, they got John Smith to tricking the nazis to believing Imperial Japan also had nukes so that they back off, averting WW3. (Its an absurd plot, I know, but Man in the High Castle is worth watching tbh)
DaedalousIlios@pawb.social
on 22 Sep 19:20
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There’s branches of conservatives who fled reddit long before we all did. But then they were all openly nazi too. Voat was one site and I forget what the other nazi reddit clone was called.
DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Sep 20:40
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That’s literally how Lemmy got its start - from people who left Reddit not so much by choice, as later waves did, but rather by being so toxic that even Reddit wouldn’t put up with it.
There’s a community on my home server, hoping more fascists come here… Of course, all posts are locked, and only approved posters can contribute to their “Free Speech Home” lol.
It’s what happens to all irony-poisoned communities who don’t aggressively moderate.
androidul@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 20:58
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created by a lad called Artem — what’re the odds
thatradomguy@lemmy.world
on 22 Sep 23:31
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So are they not part of the fediverse if they don’t link up with other instances? 'Cause if not, then all they’re saying is they censor things too because they are part of the fediverse…
rustbuckett@lemmings.world
on 23 Sep 00:04
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gross.
Deflated0ne@lemmy.world
on 23 Sep 00:14
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Another hive of pedophiles. Wonderful.
zipzoopaboop@lemmynsfw.com
on 23 Sep 02:34
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MadnessForTsar@lemmy.world
on 23 Sep 03:36
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Bunch of Snowflakes trying to act like a Tough Walls
Bluefalcon@discuss.tchncs.de
on 23 Sep 02:42
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Maybe we can infect a few and switch them to socialist. We can’t kill them all.
Gorilladrums@lemmy.world
on 23 Sep 03:44
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I sometimes forget just how many tyrants use this platform.
The very purpose of the fediverse is to make censorship impossible as it’s decentralized, open source, and easily accessible to all. Meaning that anyone, anywhere can utilize these tools to launch their own platform on their own terms without fear of being censored. This applies to everyone, not just some.
The very existence of this instance, which is clearly just a parody, is enough to send a good chunk of the freedom lovers here to quickly take the mask off and turn into Mao where they want to take down the instance, infiltrate it, and censor it. The fact they can’t is proof that fediverse is working as intended. I, for one, welcome people from all over to use the fediverse. Having a social media that’s controlled by the people instead of corporations is a big plus for me.
jwmgregory@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 23 Sep 19:36
nextcollapse
Most people here strongly seem like they wanted a more leftist Reddit.
Bluesky as well, but for X.
The concept of an entirely new ecosystem, free of authoritarian control, escapes people.
Of course we do not all have to federate with one another and share content, but to infiltrate and deny their existence entirely… is just another form of control. The accusation becomes revealed as a confession, now where have I heard that before…?
At some point the division becomes not Left vs. Right but extremist vs. non. Though I admit to lacking a fully matured understanding there as to whether that is justified or not, it’s just that I am saying that this distinction exists.
threaded - newest
I’ve always wondered why conservatives insist on coming to the fediverse when conventional networks are more appealing to them and their ideals nowadays. Or is that still not enough?
Free platforms like the Fediverse would actually suit conservative ideals of freedom quite well.
If they cared about ideals, that is.
Or freedom
Since when do conservatives follow conservative ideals of freedom?
That’s a reason why it won’t work - see Reddit’s r/Conservative which lists every post as “approved speech only” aka “flaired users only”.
You don’t hear them talk about free speech constantly? You don’t see conservative platforms popping up every week? Truth Social anyone?
Talking and actually sticking with those ideals are totally different things. What they do is called selective enforcement.
Maybe you should try joining that instance and see how far the “conservative freedom” goes?
Right, but we weren’t talking about sticking to the ideals, we were talking about the ideals themselves.
and the mods are associated with Russia too, not surprising why its the most repressive sub,(after the others got banned years ago)
If those were the ideals, the Kimmel and Colbert firings never would’ve happened.
thats why they also favor discord too, have thier own echo chamber, and allow adminstrative controls like with facebook, and not having something like reddit ban system hovering over thier shoulders, plus propaganda mods that keep them from speaking out of line(like with r/conservatives)
What’s the problem of those right-wing dipshits having their own instance? I’m trying to understand this perspective you all seem to have here.
Someone please elaborate the hesitancy of us accepting MAGA extremists having their own federated community?
Because I don’t want to interact with them outside of very specific, and sporadic, questions. Their presence is an active detriment to me. Let them go back to truth social.
Are you the type that asks a cockroach or ant infestation to politely go away as well?
Is your argument here that your preferred way to deal with cockroaches is to let them have the run of your house? Hard to red anything rose out of that, given the context.
I need you to work on your reading comprehension and try again. Not going to spoon-feed you what I’m saying if you’re here asking me to spell shit out for you friend. Also this is not endorsement of said implications either.
Might wanna work on your writing skills there, hoss, because your comment reads exactly as described.
Maybe I’m too dumb to exist in reality?
looks around
Nah, you seem to fit.
Gold
You’re not making much sense to me. I ask this sincerely and without prejudice or malice. Are you feeling alright? Do you believe that having someone to talk to might help?
Im trying to tell you that fascism/MAGA is similar to an insect infestation. Would you like me to puree some food for you next and do the airplane thing with the spoon?
It’s perfectly fine to be frustrated, but please avoid demeaning others. I couldn’t detect sarcasm in either comment, so I read them straight. Lemmy is so averse to sarcasm that I can rarely notice it when it’s there. Were you initially speaking sarcastically?
Yes i was indeed being sarcastic. Apologies for the lack of “/s”, I keep forgetting I’m not smart enough to convey the sarcasm well.
Nah, you’re just in a den of overly literal people. I’ve long since abandoned using sarcasm here.
Nobody is saying that they can't, mostly what you'll get is calls for defederation.
Calling for defederation is a matter of simply not accepting content or voting from the targeted instance. Everyone has the right to spin up an instance for whatever they believe, but everyone else also has the right to not pass your content through their servers or display it to their users
This isn't to call to shut them down, this is to raise awareness so people can update block lists, instance admins to investigate/check with their users/mods on what they want to do
Yeah, isn’t truth social part of activitypub, just defederated… like Mastodon instances probably have blocks up if truth social doesn’t have it on their end
They can have it. We just don’t want to federate with them, which doesn’t prevent them from having their own instance all for themselves.
They’re totally allowed to, just as we’re totally allowed to defederate or block or whatever. The question is why are they here, when they have taken over all the mainstream places and don’t really need a federated niche community.
Because they are trolls whose purpose is to actively harm everybody else. They do not deserve our tolerance.
Why would we want to talk to MAGA assholes who want to eradicate most of the userbase?
They’re allowed to make an instance, the software can’t stop them. They’re not required to be federated with.
Just like how you can say anything you want, you’re not required to have someone listen to it, or not have someone speak their mind about it back to you.
Ideals don’t matter to them, what matters is spreading their propaganda far and wide.
A lot if it is sowing dissent and breaking discourse as well.
Bingo. These are the same people who will say that most political violence comes from the left while removing a study showing the opposite: a study about a statistical trend that has been well known and documented for longer than I’ve been alive.
They don’t care. Their beliefs shape shift to fit whatever is most expedient in the moment. They will openly lie to your face, without even trying to hide that it’s a lie while they smile and say they’re being honest. The people who gaslit the nation about project 2025 only to have cabinet members gleeposting about implementing it on social media.
Truth is irrelevant and reality is an inconvenience. Hypocrisy is as dead to them as the corpse of civility they prop up whenever it suits their narrative.
They lie because they believe they’ll be part of the “in-group”, while in reality, they are going to be censored the moment their higher-up has the ability to turn on them without retribution.
They are fools, but not to be underestimated.
Same reason why tankies don’t just move to China, or why some Canadians had Trump bumperstickers: the point is to take over and wield authority as a weapon. Of course they try to invade and pollute every space they can and muddy waters wherever possible.
And they’ve been incredibly successful in doing so.
They go everywhere because even if a bunch of people are like “fuck off nazis” there will be a few people that are like “oh hey you have some good ideas”.
That’s why they’ve been recruiting online since the beginning of the internet. Capture whoever you can that’s sympathetic and keep bolstering numbers by any means necessary. Worked out pretty well for them
Maybe us commies and socialists need to do it the same way, work against them.
Ideals? You mean diet fascism?
If they get defederated, they just spin up a new instance and keep spreading their hate.
They got to emigrate the istance users aswell. Seems like a loosing game.
If the thousand instance users are controlled by three people, it’s not that hard.
We might not be there yet though. Elections are far enough out.
I expect 95% of Lemmy to be propaganda and manipulation when we get closer. There’s only so much that can be done to keep out nation states when all the users are anonymous.
And when you put your real name on things, you get cancelled.
It’s a bad time for the Internet, and I don’t have easy answers. Just be very aware that what seems to be “consensus” opinion might actually be twenty accounts controlled by the same guy or organization. They might even argue with each other, and just have the side they want to lose present weak arguments.
or they infilitrate instances by creating an account in there and just troll.
Before Trump, the “traditional” social media was likely pushing the Democrats’ agenda (like the Twitter files under the guise of more moderation. Now the tactic is being used by the Trump administration just more in the open and in more traditional media (Jimmy Kimmel). Big media is such an easy target for govt influence when it’s all ad supported.
I’d bet they see the writing on the wall that the government has too much influence in social media. So this time they don’t want to be caught with their pants down when Democrats come back into power. The other thing I feel is on the horizon is the end of the ad supported internet. I’ve said it before, be prepared to do it yourself or pay for it. I guarantee the guys behind this instance is in the do it yourself camp.
Disclaimer: I am libertarian and view both DNC and GOP as different sides of the same authoritarian coin. Right wing flavored, left wing flavored, both are disgusting when it’s authoritarianism.
Because this place isn’t censored for their side, they’re trying to break it.
FOSS is for everyone. Not wanting to be dependent on big tech isn’t uniquely a leftist ideal, and it should be obvious by now that the political affiliation and community guidelines of big tech companies are entirely dependent on the current political landscape, not any moral values or held ideals, and can change at any moment.
Hmm, that sounds fair.
Are you sure? most people working on projects against big tech tend to be very left leaning. The conservatives love using the appeal of authority to silence minorities and voices they don’t like.
Right wing creeping up to take control of these spaces doesn’t make it their ideal.
I could be wrong. Can you name some popular projects against big tech by conservatives?
even bootlickers want to feel like they’re talking to other real bootlickers, in their online spaces, not just bot/LLM spam
The entire alt-tech sphere, I guess, but other than that I can’t really think of many projects that explicitly say they lean right or left. As far as I can tell, most projects focus on working on whatever they’re trying to accomplish and don’t mention their political opinions for whatever reason, maybe because they don’t want to alienate their users and contributors or maybe because they are made by many people, each with their own opinions, and there isn’t a single shared belief system behind it, like ThePirateBay for example. We can try to infer what political stance someone holds, like the CEO of Brave, for example, who donated some money to an anti-gay marriage bill in 2008, or the CEO of Proton, who said some positive things about the Republican party recently, but I don’t think it’s fair to assign a political affiliation to the entire project because some of the team members expressed their opinions.
I think that you make a mistake and assume that just because someone agrees with you on not wanting to be reliant on big tech, they also agree with you on everything else, or you read something like
and falsely assign that to be a left-wing stance, when in reality most people, left or right, would support that. I haven’t seen any evidence that most people working on anti big tech projects are left-leaning. Most people don’t publicly share their political beliefs.
When I was a conservative piece of shit, in my younger days, I had the most outlandish bumper stickers you can imagine. Probably more outlandish than you can imagine, actually, 99.9% likelihood. There were quite a few. I knew I was being an ass and I loved when it offended people, because I was miserable. Someone was paying attention to me. I was getting a reaction. I existed! Anyway, yeah, it can be as simple as “they get off on ruining your day cuz they’re miserable pieces of shit.” Speaking from experience.
Thanks for sharing. I’m glad you are feeling less miserable now.
Thanks. Take lots of psychedelics, everyone.
🤣
People can change. Even if that baby thinks they can’t.
I worry you’re right.
That video is like a weirdly nostalgic confessional of my time in D.C. I was a huge piece of shit. Systematic theology book. Capitol Hill job. Little bitty bow ties. Speakeasies. Pork stuffed potatoes at Dixie Bones. People can change.
That’s true of everyone, though. Leftists find leftists grating, rigid with their insufferable call-out tactics, fixation on niche issues, clashing priorities, infighting, ease of provocation at obvious bait. We love to troll ourselves & just have a stronger capacity than the right to endure the left.
they want attention, which is why magat are so desperate for trump to recognize them.
Good job being less of a piece of shit and congrats on the happiness. Any advice for helping people out of there?
Tl;dr version:
Take mushrooms in Amsterdam, say “it’s not doing anything” and also take your sister-in-law’s portion (turns out everyone is going to bed so you’re on your own for this first psilocybin trip, which should make it easier to…)
Cry for five to six hours, finally lose religion and 80-90 pounds (over next 6-12 months), get medicated for ADHD (not currently, but sure helps), continue occasionally microdosing and/or smoking pot until everything finishes clicking.
Now that was a wild ride to read
You should’ve been on the ride! It was indeed something.
Ok so I’ve got to make like the CIA and put lsd in fhe water supply? Got it. /s obviously
Funny though as me and a friend found religion through acid, though we stayed progressive. I do really wish more people would go trip in pursuit of better understanding of shared humanity
“They turned potoooooooo into a conservative!”
Potoooooooo: “…i got better.”
They need an audience to perform for. When ever you see a social media “safe space” for conservatives (Voat, Truth Social, etc.) they almost always wither and die. They need people to blame for being everything wrong with the world as well as react to their terrible takes, otherwise there’s no point in shouting their outrage and anger on the internet.
That’s fine. But how do they feel about beans?
Conservatives value the marketplace of ideas. The fediverse is a true embodiment of the marketplace of ideas. No wonder they are coming.
Is that really true though?
When living in the US, it seemed American conservatives seemed mostly to be oligarch shills and with very shallow and performative beliefs.
Mind you, I think there needs to be balance of sorts between left and right, competition to keep both sides honest. But this doesn’t apply to American “conservatives” who at least at the high level seemed to mostly consist of demagogues.
The “marketplace of ideas” phrase is a perfect example of the theatrical and performative nature of American conservativism.
Don’t lie to urself we both know that both parties are just as corrupt and bought out by corporate interests. The lefts beliefs are just as performative. Empathy for all people unless they say words we don’t like. Gun violence is bad and we should ban all guns but its OK to shoot some people for their opinions.
If the communists are to be tolerated so must the Nazis. Communism is responsible for more deaths than the Nazis their is no argument for one that does not also lend value to the other. I’m of the persuasion that both those ideologies are evil and wrong but those ideas must be combatted by rational discussion and the only way to do that is allow all to speek.
I’m neither a conservative or a democrat. I’m in fact not even a fucking American twat. But I have beliefs that strongly align with both sides and beliefs that strongly oppose both sides. Only in the struggle between ideas can actual change happen. Only through challenging the mind can greater ideas be formed. Fuck the political parties its not a football game where we choose sides and cheer for the downfall of our opponents it as a philosophical dance of ideas where the best shall eclipse all teams.
The marketplace of ideas is an idea it is a concept it is not consecrate it is not progressive it is its own thing and it requires all sides take part. Lemmy is a hard left echo chamber I would like to see lemmy represent the average person to grant all people a voice in the great marketplace of ideas. And to do this we need the rightwingers.
I never said anything about US democrats (who are centre-right) or leftists. And where did I say you are American or even that you are a conservative or Democrat. Why are you bringing this up?
I said something very specific, that US conservatives are beholden to oligarchs and even their alleged deeply held beliefs do not pass the basic smell test if you’ve lived in different countries / speak different languages and so on (this is true irrespective of you political views). It’s like claiming the United Russia party has deeply held beliefs. This is a ridiculous proposition.
Making claims that “US conservatives support the marketplace ideas” is exactly the kind of thing that brings up massive red flags. Conservative/Progressive refers to broad political alignment. You can have people in both camps who support the marketplace of ideas and those that don’t. You can also have people who like to make statements about supporting the marketplace of ideas for superficial reasons.
Hey Jimmy Kimmel, how do you like that marketplace of ideas? I heard conservatives sure do value that marketplace. Why can’t I hear you Jimmy?
Ohh that’s cos the left killed the guy who wanted free speech. Now they playing by your rules. You did this to yourself. The irony is palpable.
U wanted a culture war, u wanted to silence free speech. You are now subject to the paradox of tolerance. You could not tolerate descenting opinions so your opinions cannot he tolerated. Ohh the irony.
Sounds like they were playing by his rules? We both know there’s no evidence “the left” killed him but hey we all know how conservatives feel about facts right?
We both know he was datings someone trans. He had hundreds of hours in a game called “furry shades of gay”. Does either of those things sound like right wing to you?
Absolutely, hypocrisy and hating yourself are core tenets of the conservative experience in America.
Ignorance of facts logic and critical thinking seem to be the core tenants of your personal experience.
They don’t want their own spaces as much as making other people’s spaces are theirs too - aka “This is why we can’t have nice things”
(imo)…because the AI/bot deluge is slowly but surely becoming more obvious by the day.
even bootlickers want to feel like they’re talking to real other bootlickers
They’re insecure, hateful little twats, and the only comfort they feel is to spread their hateful insecurity around.
I can’t find it. Oh well. 🤷♀️🤣 I won’t subscribe and there’s no algorithm to push its shit on me. And then there’s blocking. They’ll learn!
It's a whole instance, but they haven't made any comms yet but I think it's only like a day old so the nazi-comms are probably coming soon
Oh! I see that now duh. So defederate then?
How’s that done?
Instance admins can block the instance
Ok, thanks.
Personally you can add the instance name to the instance block list
Yeah, did it. Was just curious about the bigger picture, I guess. Thanks.
them: yaaah safe from the censorship of the fediverse
me: defederates
🦀🦀🦀
🦀🦀🦀
isn’t this free promotion of it? Edit: idk maybe it’s me but I just deal with these when they appear naturally in my feed
Yea, but it's not like they're going to get a whole lot of conversions from here, probably mostly right-wingers who were already here and a couple troll accounts Lmao
Would probably have been better to quietly report those to other big federated places, so they can defed.
you’re also free to block instances that are offensive, as are instance admins can block extemist instances that are disruptive.
🤡
Admins: ArtemZ
Forgot to switch from personal to work account? :D
If I wanted to make a honeypot to get these fucks arrested this is how I’d do it.
Beware of what? It’s no different than any other instance and capable of being subscribed to, scrolled past or blocked.
Stop advertising for them and let them have their federated echo chamber, just like the communists, socialists, leftists and others have.
it’s kinda funny though
FTFY
Any guesses on what our “American patriot” friend ArtemZ means by the last character of his name? I’ve got my suspicions.
ZAMBONI, BAYBEEEEEEE!!!
@ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone
Good call!
Instance binned!
thanks.
Meh. I’d rather they have their meeting places out in the light like this than hidden away in the dark web or something.
Just block, defed, move on. No need to feed their narrative of being the last bulwark against the bad guys by dogpiling them. People are allowed to be wrong and you won’t change their minds by storming in all righteous at them anyway. That will just entrench them more.
If you truly want to turn them, there’s plenty of studies and research done on how to actually influence people and change minds. Some of it is even in leaked classified intelligence agency field guides, which is a fun way to end up on a list!
I can think of worse lists to be on
Everyone Probably Sometimes Thinks Everything Is Nothing. Like I Shouldn’t Think.
Damn it took me way longer than I care to admit what that jumbled mess of words meant lol
Also, I think it’s a good thing that I sometimes wonder that maybe I’m in the echo chamber. Maybe my mental health is fucked up because I surround myself with angry liberals. I feel like it’s almost good to read differing opinions.
I never end up agreeing with them so I guess that’s good but questioning yourself is probably good.
I always try to have that in mind when I talk to my SO. I usually say “I’ve read X and lemmy but lemmy is VERY left bla bla”. Not to invalidate what I read here, but to be mindful of my sources.
Lemmy isn’t very left. It’s just normal people, i.e. that dislike fascists.
There’s no echo chamber when you’re surrounding yourself with people that don’t want to kill and harass others for simply being themselves. You’re not in one.
Fascists on the other hand, are certainly in an echo chamber.
You are literally saying “I’m not in an echo chamber, the people that disagree with me are.” I think it’s good to question yourself once in a while.
Ah, a false appeal to a majority.
Yes, sometimes that majority can be wrong. If I don’t call for people to die horribly simply because they’re not allowed to abort, which would save their life, does it make me the problem? Or what with people who shout people should be murdered because they’re Jewish/Muslim/atheist whatever?
No, the problem lies with the oligarchs fueling that hatred.
Anyway, thanks for adding one to the block list!
You’re blocking me because I think you should question your opinion now and again?
In all honesty, let them have it. Let them out themselves, let them put it on record. Let them burn themselves for the future.
That’s how it always begins. I disagree. Fascists will never peacefully claim a place or burn out. They need to be barred and removed.
I say we collectively defed from them.
Okay, I agree. I reflected on my original statement today and changed my opinion after talking about it with my peers in the real-world.
Hates fediverse, still wants to be part of it.
Exactly!
“We hate the fediverse! Join us on our Lemmy server in the fediverse!”
It’s their “Embrace, Extend, Extinguish” attempt. We’ll use it on them instead.
“Deny, defed, disunite”.
What is the actual instance so we can avoid, block, etc., please?maga.place
maga.place
Oh, I found it too. Thanks.
At this point, they’ve become another flat earther movement.
Flat Brainers.
No wrinkles.
I thought they already had a few instances: Reddit, X, (Un)Truth Social, FB, and soon TikTok.
I like Untruth Social lol
This is just universal monk jerking themselves off.
I’m so glad we can always rely on Satan’s Maggoty Cum Fart for honest and reasonable assessments of situations.
Wouldn’t have it any other way.
I can believe that. The shitstain avoids having a life like the plague
They post like they boof meth.
Lol
Call themselves “patriots”-
Then actively support a rapist that shits on the constitution on a daily basis.
MaggotPlace
Eww gross.
That's like a leftist trying to start a clique on truth social lol
Fuck off with your advertisement, seriously fuck you
I don't think it's particularly helpful to allow it to fester in secret
Knowing the train is coming isn’t without merit.
That’s a shitty comparison and does not hold up, try again
Swing and a block!
This isn’t a train station. You don’t have to let your comings and goings be known ya Performative loser
Staying in secret is where it should’ve been now everybody knows about it. Thanks to you.
Are you going to go to Virginia and shut them down?
You could’ve just reported it quietly to all mods of instances with more than a few users, though.
You may notice that OP never provided a link to the instance. It's not an advertisement, it's a warning.
People can google shit, it absolutely was an advertisement ya dunce. Cleverly crafted as an alert
Okay.
Hey I found the OFFICIAL ANTIFA HEADQUARTERS?!?!?
An instance of stochastic terrorists. Fantastic.
I bet they use Windows
1 month later: why is our new instance filled exclusively with incels and edgelords and fuckwits?
1 year later: President Trump signs executive order requiring everyone to federate with MAGA
1 year + 1 day later: turns out all instances are running on non-American servers.
.
Exactly this.
We shouldn’t even entertain them. They should be utterly destroyed.
🤮
I am repulsed by fash entertainers 🧵
I hope they meet hexbear soon
That will be a war for the ages
they would befriend them ala Red Scare podcast out of spite
They are the same people. As in bad faith actors/bots
Good, the more people on this protocol the better. If they behave then they shouldnt be defederated. But most maga beliefs are already breaking every rule.
Fascists should be unwelcome here
obviously but until they break the rules the whole instance shouldnt be defederated. I highly doubt an instance called magaland is going to last long though.
So imagine you own a bar…
ok defed them all idc. Defed .ml to if you want to use the bar analogy.
I’m in favor of defederating ml as well.
They break the rules by being a fascist. Fuck off, fascists, I say!
If the fascists behave?
There is already a ton of open fascists on this platform. Our instance is defederated with some but not all of them. This is due to rule breaking behavior
I bet it’s yet another joint run by the Internet Research Agency or its successors.
100%
Why would they not just stay on Twitter, Truth Social, reddit or Facebook? Those places are tailor-made for MAGA 🤔
They want to spread their diareah everywhere
In the novel Snow Crash, the residents of the white-supremacist micro-state franchises visit other places because they have no non-whites to attack at home.
is that the Network State that Peter Thiel is trying to build?
Actually, yes, pretty much.
Amazing novel though.
There was an SNL skit a while ago with a similar vibe. A bunch of white nationalists having a meeting and one guys describing his vision for a white utopia and the other guy is like “yeah I just got back from Vermont and it really sounds like you’re describing Vermont”
They probably get bored in their echo chambers and eventually want to try their five or six canned lines on someone new.
If you think twitter is an echo chamber but lemmy isn’t then I have a bridge to sell you.
Cut the cancer out
Cut it out
I’ve noticed a significant uptick in rightist trolls on the fediverse since the devil called Charlie Kirk home. Absolutely nowhere is safe from fascist infiltration for long. Hopefully the half decent instances defederate from those cesspits en masse.
There are some original style old school websites that are niche and small that are fine. Too small to be worth the bots’ time.
Eg if you like miniature painting, going to a small, dedicated website forum just for that, is more likely to be genuine than anything like Lemmy or Reddit. And truly it is more decentralized.
That’s because they are fucking bored and have no real personality or hobbies.
I went to maga.place and it's so edgy! Some 13 year old is having a good laugh at their own jokes.
I know it's brand new, but as of right now it seems like a waste of time to even talk about it.
Could be a different story a week from now, but until then who cares.
yes but also, never underestimate a fascist’s and troll’s malice
they’ll always try to infiltrate everywhere, and upon being asked and their stances exposed, they feign ignorance and will leave the discussion if pushed far enough… but they will always try to seize the room.
we should report, defederate, and give them no publicity except for among mods willing to defederate with the fascists.
Hmm. Where’d I put the popcorn?
I don’t know how studied fediverse mods are on how the right infiltrated reddit moderation but I really hope you guys know. and that moderator actions are visible to eachother
Maga.place is already defederated by a bunch of instances.
that’s good. they should vet any new mods on their own spaces pretty thoroughly though. the chuds on reddit played a very long game to get to the point where they can do that they do now
Who defederated so far?
Lol, defederated literally for political views even though their rules are the same as everyone else.
Glad I stopped taking ya’ll seriously. Too much corruption and stupidity on both sides.
It’s an instance that says “safe from the madness and censorship of the fediverse”. The opening pitch is them being combative.
Bless your heart.
.
We have the modlog, all mod actions are not only visible to other mods and admins but to everyone.
Though there definitely could be some improvement and there have been changes made by dessalines to make it less useful allegedly to protect themselves, it still should be able to prevent that kind of shenanigans
good! 🙂
How did the right infiltrate lemmy moderation?
It looks like the exact opposite. Pretty sure you can be banned from most subreddits, and maybe even reddit itself, just for saying “tranny.”
Just because the right refuses to take action on homophobic slurs, doesn’t make those that do take action “the left”.
If the right truly did infiltrate the moderation on reddit, then why would anyone be getting banned for saying it?
There is no “refusal to take action.”
“infiltrate” != “Totally replaced”
Ok.
How did they infiltrate? I asked that from the beginning.
Do you not see the multitude of examples of people being banned for rejecting genocide?
Let me fix that for you, “There are multitudes of examples of people being banned for rejecting genocide.”
Own your argument instead of trying to get me to make it for you.
Where are these examples? Can you share any? What genocide are you talking about? How are they “rejecting” it?
Sorry, I don’t have any more capacity to play time wasting games with you.
Ok, just making sure you didn’t have an argument and couldn’t give examples.
If you had just given them from the start instead of going through this rigamarole, then you would’ve had the time.
From your original post:
YOU didn’t provide any examples or evidence in your initial assertion. I’m just matching your level of effort.
Are you trying to dispute that it won’t get you banned?
I also asked for an example in that exact same post.
I don’t think you’re going to give any though. You’re just here to save face.
Edit: Actually, I’ve seen enough. I’m going to ignore you. Have a nice day.
May as well make a new alt, you've already burned this one too the ground.
Being banned for a slur isn’t left-wing, fascist with _ss in their name.
You didn’t answer the question.
The people here have mostly learned how to deal with fascists, and that includes not wasting time with bad faith bullshit that you have no interest in actually discussing.
Go away
Sure bud.
We can always block each other, that’s what the feature is for.
I’ll start.
They’re welcome to it.
As far as I’m concerned, this is the entire benefit of lemmy/piefed/etc… They can have their space, and any other instance can choose not to federate with them so we aren’t forced to listen to them, unlike the alternative, where an algorithm forces them into everyone’s face.
Rather than telling them they don’t have the right to speak, we simply have the ability to shut our window and not listen to them.
Let them bitch at each other.
Thank you, now I love lemmy even more.
Can we build a wall around them?
and make MAGA Place pay for it?
This one gets it
but I’m on Lemmy.World and I’m too stupid to understand everything.
I disagree with them being welcome, if we have more fascists over here eventually we’ll get overrun. Best to shut that door immediately.
You have a very poor understanding of how the fediverse works if you think that’s true.
You can always section yourself off from the instances you don’t like. If it just so happens that you’re sectioning yourself off from most of the fediverse, then that’s on you.
Except that what I call for is a collective defederation from those fascists.
The ones sectioning themselves off are the fascists by virtue of holding repulsive ideologies.
Yeah man.
If they’re not with you, they’re against you.
My friend, the person you replied to is that fascist.
Thanks for letting me know, blocked them. Blåhaj on, comrade!
Ooh ooh! Please mansplain the fediverse, 12 hour old account!
Them making their own space actually lets us much more easily reduce our exposure to them - without their space we get them everywhere and each of us have to ban such users individuals to avoid their poison, whilst if they’re congregated in a server we can just ban that server and/or its forums.
In terms of the NAZI bar metaphor, this is more like the NAZIS setting up their own bar and congregating there rather than trying to take over other bars - everybody else can very easilly avoid even looking at the NAZI bar, much less going there and listening to them spreading their ideology - yeah, by default the sound of their activities does leak to the street, but in Lemmy we’re the ones who can chose to close the door, not them.
Compare that with, for example, how the Zionists captured news@lemmy.world and even up to a level the server itself, by seeking moderation and admin positions there: subverting an existing large traffic forum and the biggest Lemmy instance is way much more pernicious than what the other kind of NAZI are doing by setting up their own - easily avoided - corner.
You raise good points, but for me the issue is, the Nazis then still have their own bar. And that creates a hub for them to advertise, spread, and sow hatred. And eventually, to try to buy the owners of the media platform. This is the literal “embrace, extend, extinguish” playbook they’re using. Is that not a problem too? How could we combat it best?
I think it’s better if we shut down their bar and bar them from even coming to any bar.
They want to go to a bar? Either don’t be a fascist or shut up.
They would have one either way - I mean, just look at Twitter, Reddit, FOX News. Even when there weren’t such NAZI spaces bought and paid for by billionaires, NAZIs had their own websites, mailing lists and whatever.
Weakenning the freedom inherent to the Fediverse’s implementation just because the NAZIs might use it to create their own space is just indirectly constraining yourself because of the NAZIs, which IMHO is the opposite of what we should be doing.
Would you defend changing HTTP(S) and HTML to somehow stop NAZIs using it because as they are now they can be used by NAZIs to spread their message? How about e-mail? How about pen and paper?
You can’t just throw the baby with the bathwater “because NAZIs”.
If you really want to stop NAZI messaging altogether you can’t do it by Technical means, you have to do it by Social and Political means - Laws Censoring NAZI messaging - and even there, look at Germany that does it and all they seem to have achieved is that the NAZI symbology is hidden whilst a large part of the NAZI way of things is widespread in society (hence the AfD success) and some elements of it are even shared by the majority (hence Germany’s very overtly race-justified unconditional support of a nation commiting a Genocide). De facto Germany’s banning of NAZIsm hasn’t stopped the kind of Fascism like in the US right now or the AfD there, were they use the NAZI propaganda techniques and share many ideological elements with the NAZIs but just don’t use NAZI symbols.
Barring them from everywhere would be ideal, but if not that, barring them from as many places as possible would be good too. Billionnaires have too much power and they are the powderkeg, in my view, that enabled fascism. So imho, we need to reduce their numbers and wealth, redistributing it to everyone.
I defend barring fascists everywhere, and not compromising the resilence of the fediverse to censorship from fascists.
And as for social and political means… in Germany, the AfD has had fewer votes as a % of turnout, than what the Republicans got in the US. I think the real cure is to combat algorithms by the root, and to seize the power over them back to the left and anyone non-fascist (or not as insane).
I understand the feeling.
I also look at it Logically and that yields a more subtle take.
My point is that thinking that ANYTHING is acceptable to contain the NAZIs (even when it hurts the rest) is forgetting that the whole point of stopping the NAZIs is to protected everybody else and their freedoms.
I’ll give you a parallel example: start by “Everybody should be thrown in Jail to make sure all criminals are in Jail”. Whilst it would work, this is obviously senseless. Once that’s accepted the discussion becomes “how far should we go to make sure criminals go to Jail” and onwards to “how many innocents wrongly in Jail is acceptable” and “how many criminals who evade Jail is acceptable”.
All that is what lead to things like a Justice System with Presumption of Innocence, different sentences for different Crimes and an Appeals System.
When it comes to stopping NAZIs the same reasoning applies - “ANYTHING is acceptable” is obviously senseless (killing all human beings would certainly stop the NAZIs, but I expect we both agree that it’s a bit too much) so the discussion is then moved to “how far are we willing to sacrifice the rest in order to stop the NAZIs”, which is the area of thinking anchoring my original point - if the NAZIs are contained (by their own choice, even), then maybe it’s not worth it to sacrifice the freedom of the rest by mangling the Fediverse if all that would deliver as a result is the near-zero impact outcome of barring the NAZIs from their own separate space in the Fediverse whilst they can still gather elsewhere.
In my view by wanting that you asked originally, a far greater number of people than the number of NAZIs would sacrifice a lot for something that will make the NAZIs lose very little - or in other words your idea amounts to “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”.
I don’t think that “lets’ fuck up what’s important for almost everybody in order to barelly inconvenience the NAZIs” is a wise position, even if I understand the impulse to “just fuck those sons of a bitch no matter what”.
But, how would you inconvenience the Nazis then? How would you deter them from the fediverse?
Deterring them from the Fediverse (as in not letting the use the protocol) is a near zero impact for them outcome, possibly technically impossible (it’s an open protocol and the software is open source) and possibly with a lot of negative impact for everybody else (it risks undermining the main point of the Fediverse - Freedom).
Much more important is deterring them from spreading their hate to other people (in general) and as it so happens, when it comes to the people in the Fediverse, them segregating themselves in their own server actually helps with that: other servers can simple defederate, taking away their audience, hence they’re not actually spreading their hate to others in the Fediverse.
With them not being self-segregated it’s a lot harder because it they’ll do what they are doing right now: join servers all over the place, post comments all over the place, so in response they get banned if they go too far (and then just open a new account) and others tend to try and nullify their poison by downvoting them or pointing out the with logic the stupidity and/or inconsistence of their position, all of which is a lot more fallible than just defederating the NAZI instance.
More generally, there is no perfect way to “deter them from the fediverse” (just try to actually analyse the problem space and you will soon find that there’s no foolproof method), and hence the discussion has to be about how far should we go and what the delivers the best results, which brings us around to the point I was making: having the NAZIs in their own instance does more to stop them spreading their poison the Fediverse audience than somehow blocking that and keeping on trying to stamp them down individually when they’re mixed with the general fediverse population.
True, freedom is important, but I feel like the paradox of tolerance also could apply.
Wouldn’t it then be a better idea for one of us to secretly install a ‘mole’ instance for the far-right? Once a critical mass is reached, all users from there can be banned, and someone loyal to us can make a new mole instance, claiming it’s free from their censorship. And then again, rinse and repeat.
The Paradox Of Tolerance is about how we should not tolerate the intolerant, not about what sacrificing ourselves to inconvenience the intolerant, must less sacrifice others to inconvenience the intolerant.
It’s really only about the Tolerant tolerating the Intolerance leads to an increase of Intolerance, and doesn’t really cover how far and justified is to make onself or others lose something to inconvenience the Intolerant, or in other word, the devil in the details part of any solution.
That said, your idea has merit and it has parallels to what some of the right does - for example, how the right creates spaces which they pass as leftwing to attract leftwing people and then when enough of a critical mass arises they use it to spread rightwing-distortions of leftwing ideas or even just outright rightwing ideas: look at Twitter or, even better, Reddit or even what the DNC has done to the Democrat Party in the US.
The discussion there is not anymore “how much is right to sacrifice the rest to inconvenience the NAZIs”, but instead is “how moral and ethical it is to create fake NAZI spaces to fuck with the NAZIS” - so it doesn’t involve sacrificing the rest at all - and personally I think it’s pretty damn ethical and moral to fuck with the NAZIs like that (after all, they want to do far worse to other people than merelly honeypot them into an online space that just gets closed after a while, so it’s not even close to how harshly they deserve to be treated)
How easy or hard it is to pull that off, especially repeatedly, is a different matter, as the Technical bit of setting up such instances is easy, the hard part is to attract the NAZIs to the honeypots, which is a Marketing problem.
I mean “welcome” in the most generic, passive aggressive Canadian sense of the word. Shutting the door is exactly what the strength of federated/defederated social media is all about.
Except if you are on lemmy, if another instance user reposts their shit, your instance will get to see that because the devs don't want to completely block their own propaganda.
That's why I moved to Piefed, and the propaganda about my country has plummeted for some reason...
And further it ‘should’ help build support for Lemmy et al’s right to exist
They can’t even write their own fucking acronym right. It’s MAGA, not “Maga.”
Magat please.
The stars aren’t even centered. They’re to the left. I call shenanigans
I get some AI generated vibes off of that image honestly, which would definitely explain the funky star alignment if my gut instinct is correct
I just thought it was funny their stars lean to the left. You’d think they’d have blown a gasket over this but it seems they just haven’t noticed.
Artemz… feel like that name is familiar…
Sounds Russian to me.
i wouldnt be surprised, since r/cons is controlled by russian mods.
turns out it’s actually a russian matrushka all the way down
It’s certainly of Cyrillic descent but I mean that name in specific, perhaps from Lemmy or the Fediverse? Or… fuck were they the guy who made a fake STALKER multi-player port as a scam?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artyom - it is. And the Z in their username is actually capitalized. Hmm, I wonder why.
This might actually help the fediverse go mainstream. And instances that isolate from them will struggle to remain relevant.
Lol yea ok tagged right-winger user from the right-wing HC instance LMAO even
Hc isn’t right wing it’s politically neutral same as lemmy.world we just get shit cos we ain’t big enough to not get bullied like lemmy.world
<img alt="" src="https://media.piefed.world/posts/XM/vs/XMvsh5pxXAWWko8.gif">
lemmy.world/post/36295703?scrollToComments=true
I mean, obviously you’re wrong…
I just don’t understand why lemmy.world admins keep federating with troll instances.
Because sadly seem okay with most as long as they’re not left leaning instances
Says a moderator of !Antifa@maga.place
<img alt="" src="https://reddthat.com/pictrs/image/8a009025-54de-4ef4-9089-b46d9f01db4f.png">
Hahaha. That’s just karma for when the same thing was done to the conservative community on lemmy. Remember it was u guys who killed the free respectful speech guy.
LW isn’t center right??? Til
Lemmy.world is neutral politically I just said that.
They claim to be but tend to hate leftist
right wing only threads, forums usually dont survive, because they need to constant attack “the enemy” to stay relevant, cant have that if everyone just agrees with you all the time.
The hubris to think this is unique to the right.
Imagine using Fediverse and thinking that some of the instances with certain political alignment can make it effectively centralized by somehow tanking other instances. This is impossible imo, but with this mindset, why not just use centralized platforms?
The fediverse is based on the fundamental philosophy of the network effect. Idea is that once the fediverse has a large enough user base existing outside of that is impossible.
I’m simply saying their are enough right wing and centre people who use social media that an isolated hard left echo camber cannot exist as an isolated island. Federation enables a true marketplace of ideas a true bastion of free speech. It is unstoppable it is inevitable. No instance shall centralise it but the majority of the people who use the internet expect to be able to interact with other using it.
A majority of users on politically neutral instances will kill isolated extremists who don’t federate. lemmy.world and lemm.ee where the first to prove that and its only going to grow. Information craves freedom and censorship will always lose.
That’s a good point tbh. Not like it’s going to “kill” them or whatever, but the idea I read in your post, is that right-wing instances are more likely to remain federated with neutral instances than left-wing instances are to remain federated with neutral instances. I hope it’s gonna kick some of those leftists in the ass to get back some of their classical libertarian values like free speech, because what they’re doing right now is truly suicidal.
Exactly. I have a feeling they gonna have to learn the hard way. Mind u the left suddenly cares about free speech again since the right figured out how to cancel people.
we should start a fediverse tv show called fedi-deathmatch and its just 5 ppl from maga.place and 5 ppl from hexbear.net having a debate
Might have to wait to see if they get 5 people first.
<img alt="" src="https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/fe897a13-de8d-4c29-be44-4b7d7b442db8.png">
1 v 1 then
they have 11 users now
Well shit, let’s set this up then.
masterdebaters commence!
Wonder if they know about the Epstein files 🤔
Stand MAGA for. Make ass great again ?
Or “Minors always granted access”
Make America Great [Depression] Again!
Make America Go Away
Hey, I hope Lemmy.zip federates with them! I sometimes listen to the tankies, I don’t see why I should not read the fascists as well.
<img alt="" src="https://media.piefed.social/posts/t2/Yb/t2YbH9QcIhdRbkk.png">
Wait, what are the 12 things to do before one calls the cops?
Because I feel nice today, I went back to this instance to get the link for you, haven’t read it myself: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/may-day-collective-solidarity-defense-12-things-to-do-instead-of-calling-the-cops
Before I even read the thing, “here’s the link, I havent read it myself” is the single most gigachad thing I’ve ever read, you live up to your username my dear King/Queen/Inbetween, thank you!
Here is copied pasted version
Calling the police often escalates situations, puts people at risk, and leads to violence. Anytime you seek help from the police, you’re inviting them into your community and putting people who may already be vulnerable into dangerous situations. Sometimes people feel that calling the police is the only way to deal with problems. But we can build trusted networks of mutual aid that allow us to better handle conflicts ourselves and move toward forms of transformative justice, while keeping police away from our neighborhoods.
Don’t feel obligated to defend property—especially corporate “private” property. Before confronting someone or contacting the police, ask yourself if anyone is being hurt or endangered by property “theft” or damage. If the answer is “no,” then let it be.
If something of yours is stolen and you need to file a report for insurance or other purposes, consider going to the police station instead of bringing cops into your community. You may inadvertently be putting someone in your neighborhood at risk.
If you observe someone exhibiting behavior that seems “odd” to you, don’t assume that they are publicly intoxicated. A traumatic brain injury or a similar medical episode may be occurring. Ask if they are OK, if they have a medical condition, and if they need assistance.
If you see someone pulled over with car trouble, stop and ask if they need help or if you can call a tow truck for them. If the police are introduced to such a situation, they may give punitive and unnecessary tickets to people with car issues, target those without papers, or worse.
Keep a contact list of community resources like suicide hotlines. When police are contacted to “manage” such situations, people with mental illness are sixteen times more likely to be killed by cops than those without mental health challenges.
Check your impulse to call the police on someone you believe looks or is acting “suspicious.” Is their race, gender, ethnicity, class, or housing situation influencing your choice? Such calls can be death sentences for many people.
Encourage teachers, coworkers, and organizers to avoid inviting police into classrooms, workplaces, and public spaces. Instead, create for a culture of taking care of each other and not unwittingly putting people in harm’s way. If you’re part of a group that’s holding a rally or demonstration, don’t get a permit or otherwise cooperate with the police.
If your neighbor is having a party and the noise is bothering you, go over and talk to them. Getting to know your neighbors with community events like monthly block parties is a good way to make asking them to quiet down a little less uncomfortable, or to find another neighbor who is willing to do so.
If you see someone peeing in public, just look away! Remember, for example, that many houseless people do not have reliable access to bathrooms.
Hold and attend deescalation, conflict resolution, first-aid, volunteer medic, and self-defense workshops in your neighborhood, school, workplace, or community organization.
Street art is beautiful! Don’t report graffiti and other street artists. If you see work that includes fascistic or hate speech, paint over it yourself or with friends.
Remember that police can escalate domestic violence situations. You can support friends and neighbors who are being victimized by abusers by offering them a place to stay, a ride to a safe location, or to watch their children. Utilize community resources like safe houses and hotlines.
Thank you!
I’m having trouble telling if the person who wrote that was trolling, or just really fucking stupid.
That sounds like a great way to get assaulted.
Meh, you are overreacting
Such neighbor are more often than not too unagreeable to just have a chat with.
Who are “vulnerable” people here? Criminals?
Nice dog whistle there.
Police have a long history of using excessive force and being excessively punitive against anyone who looks different. Literally the first police force in the country were slave catchers and they never left those roots.
Edit: holy shit did you actually forget to change alts before replying to yourself?! Good job! Bravo!
Yeah, people here assumes everyone knows about their political problems. I am not from west. Have a open mind
Y’know what, reviewing your post history, I believe you. You happened to step on a landmine though with your above comment about criminals, because the general problem of overpolicing and excessive force is reinforced by a laws that help perpetuate it.
For an extreme example, if you make it illegal to sleep under a bridge, any homeless person trying to get some rest in a public space that happens to provide a little bit of shelter is now a criminal. But do you think the police are going to hassle grampa who dozed off sitting at a park bench because it’s 3pm and he usually has had a nap by now? And when the newly deemed criminal gets upset about being arrested for just trying to get some shut eye that can be determined to be resisting arrest therefore the police can use more force. Maybe that triggers some PTSD and they start fighting back in which case the amount of force escelates.
The law and the criminal justice system are unfortunately designed to perpetuate a cycle of criminalism. Punitive prisons and sentencing make it difficult for anyone who has been arrested to adjust to living in society again. Parole and probation (the supposed support structure provided to people as they leave the prison system) is structured to penalize folks who already have it rough for struggling to make ends meet, and can quickly land people back in prison for offenses as simple as having work schedule them during their mandated parole meetings and needing to choose between potentially losing their job and becoming homeless or potentially being arrested again. Or they might find that they can make an actual living wage working in a black market (drugs, vehicle chop shop, etc.) because having a record excludes them from better paying employment options that offer a better work-life balance. Or maybe they couldn’t afford the restitution payments required (fines that were part of their sentence and fees for participating in the justice system) they go back to prison and ultimately come out much later even less able to adjust and the cylce continues until they die in prison, die homeless living in a gutter or die a death related to whatever trade they can pick up with their criminal record (industrial accident, drug overdose, gang violence, take your pick)
So yeah in short, some folks have a tight line to walk so that their existence isn’t criminalized
I see, over policing. Here police try to solve domestic(family) disputes without registering complains & overlook trivial offenses. And in local area, people usual approach respected locals & panchayat first. because it is common sense that justice system is unnecessarily expensive & takes a lot time to deliver justice.
What instance is that community on
Edit: oh lmao its on maga.place
Let them federate with Hexbear
Them? Is one guy
We don’t know their pronouns.
I don’t even think there’d be that much disagreement.
“Oh, do you hate ‘libs’ and love Putin too?”
You clearly haven’t seen their posts about this instance then.
Or ever actually interacted with them.
Probably the same person.
Funny rule
<img alt="" src="https://thelemmy.club/pictrs/image/9f899a73-b68f-4b31-9bbd-324a055ac4c6.png">
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others
And some are the equalest
youtu.be/t02v9EUHs30
So being sexist towards a Canadian is a warn but being sexist towards an American is a ban?
I presume they were attempting to clarify that the type of xenophobia that they most likely expected to see was directed at themselves due solely to their nationality.
But you could test this by making xenophobic comments against both, and see what happens. Then perhaps make an alt and perform in reverse ordering.
Dang, I thought they would actually allow freedom of speech.
Oh well. The search continues.
Bye.
I can’t believe there’s this many people talking about an instance with one user.
Debating the big issues here guys.
It’s how tribalism work.
These people are incapable of tolerating anyone who disagrees with them.
Lmao @ all these day old accounts like yours trying to push a normalcy narrative for maggats
.
Nazi says what?
He’s not even hiding the fact he’s a fucking Nazi with the “SS” tag as if that subtle…
So that’s what that newly hatched chicken emoji means.
Kiss my ass, Nazi
If you can’t believe it just give it time. You’ll see the patterns then belief will be within your reach.
Okay, and? The whole point of the fediverse is that everyone gets a voice. It’s good to see more people adopting it too, even conservatives. It’ll be less of an echo chamber that way.
My honest reaction exactly, and I have to say I feel like just being on lemmy for a little bit it does feel like a bit of a left wing eco chamber, which isn’t necessarily that bad and it makes sense due to alot of left wing people migrating from twitter and the likes, idk it’s just something I’ve noticed and wanted to mention
Yeah. I don’t usually mind either too much. I think there is a problem when you have the likes of !christianity@lemmy.world being downvote brigaded to the point that it actually is unfairly balancing the posts due to the slim minority of Christians on here. Most lefties I find on here are cool, though. Just a slim minority of them, like the ones who get offended at you saying “bro”
Also, having a Trumpet on lemmy is infinitely better than the loli porn instances
Are you and the other mods aware that you can see who downvotes, and potentially ban systematic downvoters? That’s a topic that is regularly debated, but I guess in your case it could be useful?
I’ll take a look when I get the chance
MAGAhats are exactly the same as those who defend loli. Just ask Trump and Epstein.
I think it’s completely fair to downvote Christian fundamentalists.
You literally have “nazi” in your username.
Sounds like you’re drunk up on strawmen
And then in a couple years lemmy goes the way of reddit and suddenly were flooded with right wing bots and bad actors spamming lemmy with misinformstion and hate and they scream and cry whenever you try to do anything about it.
Leftists deserve our own space on the internet.
That’s not what the fediverse is for. The fediverse isn’t to be your own personal haven. However, you can use the fediverse to make a leftist instance and defederate/ban right wingers as you please.
I haven’t been on Reddit since the API fallout, but I rarely ever saw right wingers, nevermind bots.
Some of these platforms (notably xitter) have algorithms to farm rage
Oh you saw bots, they were everywhere. You just didnt realize you were interacting with bots. At least once a week I found a bot account trying to steer conversations on reddit.
What I do remember was being banned from half the subs because I posted a pro vaccine comment in the nonewnormal sub. And it wasn’t conservative subs that were banning me. It was usually leftist, slightly leftist or even completely apolotical subs with leftist moderation. And then they broadened their ban list to include pro life subreddits and anti-pitbull activism subreddits as well.
I did not get an impression that it was a right-wing site.
Twitter always was a cesspit as well, even before Elon. It was filled with leftist dreamSMP and k-pop stans who’d doxx you over misnaming a haircut in Animal Crossing. When elon bought it, it just turned into a right wing cesspit. A cesspit is still a cesspit.
That says more about you than about the site lol
That I haven’t used reddit since 2023?
That you haven’t looked outside of your bubble.
Of leftism?
The day it happen we’ll just have to defederate them, which other social networks can’t.
Do you realize Reddit is a monolith platform and not defederated? The things happening to Reddit and other centralized platforms is exactly the reason why Fediverse exist in the first place. Those problems are what Fediverse is designed to solve. It’s surprising to see people considering Lemmy as some kind of leftwing alternative to Reddit. It’s not.
It’ll be defederated and just create new echo chambers.
Not everyone kneejerks defederation in this case. A lot of places just defed csam
And what is that acronym stand for? There is no “kneejerk” when collective defederation, save for outright removing the instance, is the only sane method of kicking out fascists.
CSAM = child sexual abuse material
I’m not talking about fascists either. Why do americans always jump to conclusions
You’re talking about conservatives, who are fascists in sheep’s clothing.
Never knew I was a fascist in sheep’s clothing.
You lot really don’t get out much
No you, and others know!
You’d be better asking people their opinions on issues before sticking on labels over one issue.
I call myself a conservative because I support the structure of the institution of where I reside- The United Kingdom. I support the conservation of our constitutional monarchy and unitary parliamentary democracy. I support the four nations of the United Kingdom being in such a union. I support the conservation of the NHS. I support traditional values of: God first, family second, community/country third and corporate obligations fourth.
However, I also support the Kingdom being open and accepting to those who want to work and reside here that will benefit the country in some way and not cause hindrance to others, as well as helping those fleeing to safety. I believe we are created in God’s image and hatred based on ethnicity/race is wrong. I believe we are all sinners and thus shouldn’t see ourselves as better than each other. I believe in feeding those who cannot support themselves and uplifting those who need help. These are all stemmed in my conservative religious faith and belief.
Does this make me a fascist?
If enough free-speech instances get defederated, then it will be the ones defederating that are left with an echo chamber.
yeah but we’ve seen with other social media platforms what happens when the conservatives come knockin’. Once the wave of conservative boomers and social outcasts comes the grifters will follow and it’s the end of the platform.
Couldn’t be further from the truth.
The fediverse is likely to split off into different sections. Some will allow people to say what they want, others won’t.
That’s due to algorithms. And again, you could just defed them.
Let’s not paradox of tolerance this place into a Nazi bar
I’m not talking about Nazis here
Oh you aren’t talking about the instance this post is about?
I have yet to find a trump supporter that was a nazi. In fact, the cases where I found a nazi, they hated trump for being a zionist
maga toes the line with open nazis and they don’t even bat an eye.
If you have 10 people at a table and 1 of them is a nazi, you have 10 nazis. Simple as.
Can’t we apply the same logic with leftists?
It is imperative (to someone) that we do. Otherwise folks might wise up and get angry at billionaires.
So if a pro-palestine rally has a jihadist, then they’re all jihadists?
The important thing is that we fight each-other, instead of requiring billionaires to play by any rules.
lmao true
If they don’t eject the jihadist, then yes. And, frankly, I don’t know many, if any, leftists who would tolerate a jihadist, as they are just a different type of religious fundamentalist right winger.
I don’t know… just like how “black voters” are not a true homogenous voting block, neither are “MAGA” proponents all of the same ideology. There’s no rule book they all “abide” by. It’s a spectrum of ridiculous people.
dog whistle after dog whistle.
And you’re missing the point. If your spectrum of ideology is up to and includes nazis… you accept nazis… making you a nazi enabler at best… or to keep it simple, a nazi.
I don’t know why y’all are thinking that you’re being slick by playing these games. This little semantic games and bad faith bullshit is well known about and documented. It’s the same strategies used nearly a 100 years ago. We already read about you, go back to history books.
Who are you talking to? See, you’ve included me in a group which i am definitely not even a part of. If this is how people like you behave, this country has no hope of reconciliation. (I have, and would never vote for, someone like Trump, btw)
Oh, sweet summer child
Then you were being purposefully obtuse, or are woefully naive.
They sure are.
Well this instance has already been heavily defederated.
Do we know who defederated them?
Piefed.social has. I imagine blahaj and dbzer0 and many left-leaning instances.
Blahaj and dbzer0 makes sense tbh. They’re kinda ideological safe spaces. All power to them.
It would behoove every instance to defed them.
No, the whole point of the fediverse is to combat censorship from fascists.
Inviting them over there is NOT good. It’ll show more pro-fascist views and fool gullible people. And the more fascist instances there are, the harder to kick those out.
“Echo chambers” don’t exist except on fascist forums.
You’re saying you support it turning into a Nazi bar. If you want one, then go there, instead of being on Lemmy.
It’s to combat censorship. How will having ““fascists”” on the fediverse start putting in place censorship?
It sounds like you’re the one wanting to enforce censorship?
I’m not talking about nazis or fascists. You were the first to mention them.
why are you running so much defense for nazis? not a good look.
You’re the one defending nazis.
Bruh, you’re working hard to defend nazis…
All i see here is echo chambers because of lack of diversity. Do you think these crazies will respect freedom when they will get power in real life? These people hate “enemy” so much that they get pleasure from inflicting pain in them & will break law if it mean they are punishing the enemy. I joined here last week, rarely saw civil discussion or diversity in opinions.
A perfectly valid point. We always have to protect ourselves from the barbarians at the gate anyway.
If particular instances like blahaj.zone or beehaw wish to defederate them, that makes sense. But if they aren’t botting/spamming or doing things that are illegal, I don’t see a point in defederating.
How about when they are pushing the right to exist for marginalized groups? Or promoting forced relocations of people, without due process?
If defined correctly, that’s bad.
Conservatives are all ok with it, and promoting it. Its a core tenet.
In what way? One’s person “deportation to protect a nation’s sovereign borders and rule of law” is another’s “forced relocation.” But at the same time, one’s ethnic cleansing could be to another “deportation”. To some people, a marginalised group is due to an inherent minority. Another person’s marginalised group would be economic class or a traditionally suppressed group such as women. (Even then to some people, they’d claim women being expected to work instead of spending time with their families is evil corporate capitalist slavery)
You’d need specific examples.
I was going to say this. I’m not even from the United States btw. That’s just how the fediverse and federation works.
Yeah. The fediverse will end up having stuff we don’t like on it. What matters is that people are using it.
Isn’t the point of fediverse to provide an alternative to big tech where anyone can create an instance with their own rules? Its not really about having to be subject to everyones voice. Otherwise instances wouldn’t have the ability to defederate.
And people as they got more familiar to the fediverse started either running their own or choosing instances that aligned with what they’d like to see and not see. So I see this thread more as people expressing what they’d like their instance to do when it comes to defederating or federating.
And if values don’t align then people can switch to an instance that more closely does. So its less about voice, but having options to turn to compared to centralized sites where if you dislike the CEO, algorithm, or moderation policies there isn’t much you can do other than leaving, but in the process lose access to all content and interaction.
.
I would support this if they didn’t just ban/censor people they disagreed with.
We definitely need more open spaces for discussion on the internet.
Not with fascists.
.
Lmao that was a quick mask-off
What’s the problem?
Fascists are excellent at going mask off. Too bad they don’t kill themselves like in the old days.
They also literally end their username in “ss” so it’s pretty clear they’re a Nazi too
What is transgenderism? I googled it and the top result for that word is a link to a religious website.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-ism
If you can’t figure it out from this, then you need to get help elsewhere.
Don’t dance around it like a coward. Say what you mean. I’m an adult, you’re an adult. You came here to express yourself, don’t get shy now.
I’ve said everything I mean and gave you more than enough information to answer your question.
If you still can’t understand then you need to improve your reading comprehension.
I genuinely cannot help you here. I am sorry.
Go look up the definition for dogwhistle. That word you used is a dogwhistle indicative of an extreme religious right wing ideology. That’s why you won’t explain it - you can’t. You don’t know why you’re afraid, you just are. That’s indoctrination. Everyone here understands what you mean, you’re just terrified of explaining it.
You’re incorrect, but that’s okay.
I’m not here to argue with you.
No, you’re here to spread hate.
🙄
I’ve said nothing hateful. I’m going to have to ignore you now because you keep trying to argue by saying outlandish nonsense.
“boohoo, victim & denial mode enabled”
guys maybe the one-day old account is a troll account. what a loser lol.
Yeah, you can get blocked too.
I get the feeling your block list is gonna be kinda lengthy, if this is how you “debate in good faith.” Aw well, run along, lil stormtrooper.
Welcome to the list.
It’s sad watching you people go through and reply to everything I’ve written with baseless insults.
Seek help.
That “who, me?” shit is just cowardice. I haven’t presented any arguments because you haven’t expressed anything to argue against. You posted a dogwhistle and got called out. Go find your tribe.
boohoo victim mode enabled
go fuck your mum and grow up. be a man and support transgender people instead of being a fascist who holocausts them.
Brand new account, and zero upvotes for your poorly concealed hate.
Take a hint.
Argumentum ad populum
I’ll try to clear it up, nobody likes you because you are a terrible and evil person who normalizes the victimization of a group of people who have an insanely high suicide rate. Instead of having principles, you are perfectly okay with ruining the lives of millions of Americans so you can support your lardo in chief, who isn’t even going to give you your white ethnostate that you want so bad anyways.
Personally, I think they can fuck right off.
The endgame of this is immediately labeling any person showing the slightest signs of a different opinion as a fascist.
Hate is not an opinion :)
The spectrum of antagonistic opinions is much wider than just hateful opinions. There are people who are totally fine with trans, but consider the minimum age for HRT should be higher, or it should have solid medical proofs of dysphoria actually happening, or people who consider that there are way too many people taking HRT nowadays who don’t really need it and are only tricked into it by the influence of social media, etc. It’s very easy to label them all as fascists and it’s happening all the time.
horse race test?
Hormone replacement therapy.
yeah ik, i was making a joke .
Except that literally nobody who’s not a Russian bot, has those “antagonistic opinions”.
Fact: fascists have caused millions of deaths.
Fact: most fascist accounts are bot accounts, from Russia, the US, and Israel.
Go educate yourself and read on Umberto Eco’s definitions of fascism.
This is obviously untrue, and with this faulty style of thinking you simply dismiss everything that isn’t exactly your opinion.
How is this relevant? No one is asking to listen to actual fascists.
You chose a pretty poor example. People don’t spend years seeing doctors about transitioning without being slightly very gender disphoric. One trans dude I know literally had so many hoops to jump through including having multiple kids before they could finally convince their doctors to prescribe HRT because the doctors kept saying “well you might change your mind though! What if you want kids? What if you want to breastfeed? What if you just don’t like the way you look and that’s why you’re trying to transition?” Etc.
Or just look at the viral tweet of the one trans woman being like “yeah I offered a single hormone pill to my buddies as a joke and they all recoiled in horror”
A better example for holding actual debate would be arguing over how to approach the housing shortage in America, or the best approach to reducing the wealth gap. Basically anything where you can agree on the premise and debate policy. This is usually how I talk to republicans at work or in my family, I focus purely on policy because generally people can agree on problems that they can see, and if you can avoid the common turns of phrase that political pundits use you can probably even agree on some policy ideas. I had a brilliant conversation with some conservatives at work recently regarding insurance where we basically were all in agreement of “holy shit something has to change here now that we have multiple disasters a year wiping out entire cities and counties”
Aren’t people who are NOT medically gender dysphoric able to receive HRT nowadays just because they want? I personally get an impression of trans becoming more like a subculture, and that teens can start transitioning just because it’s cool. Like, what was an emo and other kinds of scene kids in 2000s, now trans-culture occupies that niche to some extent. Which naturally raises concerns since it has way more serious consequences than just wearing a certain cloth and makeup.
In civilised countries, yes. And that is a good thing. Not having dysphoria does not mean that someone is not trans and this gatekeeping is a huge part of the problem,
This literally doesn’t happen and is just fear mongering. Also it’s presenting transitioning as the only choice. Guess what, not transitioning and going through puberty with the hormones that your body produces is also a choice.
Interesting that comments like yours creep up in a time where the Trumptard propaganda machine tries to vilify trans people.
Imo, it’s best to gatekeep it as hard as possible for teens and make it a choice for 18+. For mostly the same reasons as many other limitations for kids/teens. So, if you’re 14, you can only get HRT if you have seriously thoroughly medically proven gender dysphoria, but for 18+ you can just have it as a choice.
Okay, hope you’re right, I can’t really judge what’s going on in America since I’m from country where trans are extremely rare. It’s probably an impression formed by social media that in America trans is almost like a teen subculture.
Again, not transitioning is also a choice, a choice informed by ideology and forced upon the child. Anti-scientific bullshit.
Also, there are just as many trans people in your country as anywhere else. They are probably oppressed enough to not come out the closet.
Doing nothing to the condition that was unrecognized for most of the human history and nowadays is still not widely known or still being questioned can also be inertia or cautiousness rather than forced ideology. It’s only anti-scientific if people get to know all the science behind it and proceed to deny it. But in my previous post I don’t call to deny it for minors I only meant that minors shouldn’t be able to do it on a whim, without proofs of condition being present. And for those without condition, not transitioning is not a choice in the same sense, because it doesn’t carry negative consequences, while trying to transition actually can.
This is also a way to explain it. No way to check which one is real, but it is certainly a possibility.
I don’t work in healthcare and I have not needed gender affirming care myself so I can only rely on what I hear from the trans folks I know, and none of them had an easy time getting the healthcare they need. Everything I’ve heard indicates that it takes multiple years to begin receiving any kind of gender affirming healthcare outside of psychological so it’s not something people are going to go through on a whim. They have to be feeling a fairly significant amount of dysphoria to go through that much medical gaslighting and reach the first actually medical step of a prescription for HRT. But transgender, just like gender and sexuality is a spectrum. Some folks don’t want to do more than socially transition, some folks want to go all in but some will skip some procedures, and some are absolutely 100% and need to completely transition
There have however been actual pushes to try to create discorse exactly matching what you said “I’m not against trans people, I just think it’s too easy for kids to permanently modify their bodies for a fad!” And of course the more extreme version “you send you kid to school and they home fully transitioned! And if you try to do anything about it they tell you you’re endangering your child!” So definitely don’t trust anyone trying to spread this discourse
Good way to deal with it is to explain it’s not true. Bad way to deal with it is to label people with those opinions as fascists and block them immediately.
Nope. By the time you are done refuting their bullshit they will have spouted ten more lies. The best thing to do is deplatforming.
This only happens when you are dealing with someone who is pushing the agenda or spread certain narrative on purpose. This is always a small minority of people, and there are way more people that simply believe their agenda and not have anyone to explain them it might not be true. It might actually be a tactic to have professional posters who never give up even if proven wrong and thus make you feel like it’s pointless to argue.
No it’s not. That’s a fallacious argument.
Only if the judgement of whether someone is a fascist is always perfect and flawless. But in practice there are way too many false positives, and the accumulation of them leads to increasing isolation from uncomfortable opinions, which makes ones mind even less frustration-tolerant in the long run which leads to even more false positives in future judgements.
No, I mean it’s literally the slippery slope informal fallacy: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
You could qualify it as that if the consequences I described were purely hypothetical, but they were already reached and demonstrated in practice countless times.
Countless times where people are wrongfully being accuse of fascist ideology? When?
I know they’ve done it with communism and socialism, but…
Often? I was thinking of some high-profile examples and I think a good one would be the Godot drama, where the moderation team accused users of being “fascists,” “bigots,” and similar terms, and proceeded to ban them when those users asked to keep political agenda out of the project.
They have like 1000 websites like Facebook and Twitter to go to, we need our own spaces. I think we should try to block them so they don’t burn this platform with their stupid bullshit.
The fediverse isn’t your safe space.
Neither is it your fascist’s safe space.
It’s nobodies safe space.
That’s the point.
No it’s really not. I signed up at Blahaj specifically because it’s a safe space from losers like you.
Most of it is. its funny how almost every website licks the balls of maga, almost every algorithm pushes your nonsense constantly and yet you ended up here. Why can’t you go stink up the 1000 websites you have full of boomers and Nazis?
The problem with you people is that you view anyone who isn’t kissing your ass as a nazi.
I’m going to ignore you now because you will argue as long as I respond.
Begone, goose stepper
Sounds like they explicitly don’t want to federate. Unless it’s a parody site, I guess.
It’s entirely possible it’s a spectacularly successful trolling mission by one person.
Seriously, look how many people are up in arms about an instance with one user.
Yeah and why the big deal? I didn’t notice any signs saying the fediverse is only for lefties. I may not agree with conservatives but that doesn’t mean I think they should be excluded.
People don’t want to federate with MAGA-themed instances.
Sure they should. Their entire online presence revolves around hurting people they dislike.Has there ever been a forum they contributed positively too?
Too many people give these jackholes the benefit of the doubt. “They don’t think trans people should exist. I don’t agree, but we have to hear them out” is a cowards line that puts their freedumb of speech above trans people’s right to exist.
I hope we’ve learned that lesson by now. Sure, wait for them to break a rule or whatever. Maybe this is just one guy and maybe it’s just going to sit there. But the moment they start talking—because we all know what they’re going to say—give them the bums’ rush.
Oh hey no I don’t think we have to hear them out. Especially not if they’re coming out with hate speech - that shit should always be smacked down hard. When they start doing that, we can defed the fuckers - but they haven’t done that yet.
Maybe I’m too soft, I just don’t wanna see lemmy turn into an echo chamber.
If everyone is being cool to everyone, is that an actual problem?
I mean, have you ever interacted with Hexbear? The right doesn’t have a monopoly on being awful.
Bad faith answer, though. MAGA cunts aren’t “conservatives”, they are outright fascists.
If you want conservative, you’d have to look at people who just want the status quo. In other words, the more milquetoast Christian democrats.
The fediverse is for ‘everyone’, but that doesn’t mean we put up with fascists. It’s only for people who aren’t batshit insane. In other words, not for fascists and transphobes.
If you identify with conservatism, as in, going to Church, wanting a traditional family yourself – by all means you’re welcome! so long as that means you let others also have their own life that might not involve those, and don’t hate or question their lifestyle.
but if you’re a fascist or transphobe, then get the fuck out here and go touch grass
The good thing is that all sane instances can just defederate and we won’t have to deal with them. They can use the software all they want, and we can shut them out from our spaces all we want.
I’m not sure how effective that’ll be in the long-term though, if the less politically aware instances don’t block them, or don’t realise in time. They’ll attempt to chip bit by bit away.
Yeah I guess I failed to distinguish between maga and conservatives. I don’t want to see lemmy become an echo chamber, and usually you can disagree but debate with conservatives. Fascists, not so much. Don’t get me wrong, I think Nazis should be stomped online and out in the world - I just haven’t seen anything yet from this instance to justify that.
I actually feel kinda sorry for oldskool conservatives - I don’t agree with em, but they must feel politically homeless these days.
But yeah, bigots can fuck right off.
To be fair, the entire Republican party seems to be all about blurring that line right now. I think the big challenge is Trump awakened something in folks who haven’t been politically active in a very long time, and because they haven’t been politically active, they aren’t coming into politics with a clear ideology or set of policies they want to see passed other than “I like trump!” Which is probably a big part of why we just have a bunch of attempts at turning his presidency into a dictatorship and state-sponsored racism as the only clear policy trump actually cares about, and any policies that are directly enriching large businesses are just a case of those with deep pockets cozying up to folks in power with loose morals.
But let’s be real, the Republican party hasn’t been about conservatism for quite a while. They’ve definitely been coasting off of pure brand recognition with occasional injections of christofascism and state sponsored violence against minorities to help maintain their old jim crow roots. They’ve successfully cultivated a culture of being Republican, so they can do what they want policy-wise and still reliably win around a third of the elections in the country without resorting to voter suppression, and they can reliably win about half of the elections in the country with voter suppression
Yeah I wanna slightly amend that - I think their ideology is certainly “I like trump” but I think the reasons behind that are they see him as a big strong leader who validates and legitimises their prejudices - and will allow them to act on those prejudices. Suddenly the hate they felt for their immigrant neighbours, or their fear of gay people, whatever - suddenly they have a leader saying that’s okay and he’s now supporting their discrimination with military deployment in US cities.
This is how fascism happens - it’s not always forced on a population, a lot of times a lot of people want it.
And the oldskool republican party was essentially a corporate mouthpiece.
Scary fuckin times, mate. The snowball is rolling down the hill and it’s growing and it’s accelerating.
I used to be one of those oldschool conservatives. I’m much more progressive now, but what I do think helps, is the following.
Fascists won’t listen to progressives. So what will pull them out of that black hole, is having them listen to more ‘boring’ people, but without the opportunity to overtalk them. Let fascists listen to normal views and don’t let fascists take over the discussion. Youtube videos with comments disabled, PDFs by anonymous authors, and so on, that can help.
The common man’s best ally is reaching out to the milquetoasts, and having the fascists listen to them and you while also not listening to them. Never yield to their beliefs; have a red line beyond which you won’t discuss with them. Use their own tactics against them.
I used to know one. Whenever they still wanted to discuss their batshit crazy views, I told them I declined discussing that stuff with them, and wouldn’t interact with them unless if they could shut up about that.
It usually worked (though not 100%), so I consider that a general-ish success.
Maga is conservatism. Stop trying to separate the two, they are the same fucking thing.
It’s reactionary, not conservative. If they’d been conservative, they’d not actively try to revert the US back to the colonial age.
They’re not the same.
What do you think conservatives are trying to “conserve”? Because it ain’t nature.
As I mentioned, the status quo. So basically the average Joe that doesn’t care much either way, isn’t gonna hate or support, but also not apathetic. Basically people who just want stability, not fascism (which is inherently unstable in that it perpetuates a state-led chaos and terror).
As for nature, the whole “X is UnNattural” is nonsense fabricated by religious fundamentalists, tbh. Nature is wilder than whatever they can cook up.
I’ve seen lots of people lately attempting to distance conservatism from MAGA, and I’m sorry but it has failed. You need to extricate yourself from the hateful ideology that you (presumably) subscribe to.
One can distinguish the two while adhering to neither.
Yes but it seems that the people with the most interest in distancing the two are embarrassed conservatives
The status quo of systemic white supremacy and the patriarchy… So… fascists.
Those are both the same thing.
Lol, no. Reactionaries violently upend and attempt to revert to medievalism, conservatism does nothing; the latter might as well be somewhat apathetic.
Conservatism IS fascism, with “nicer words”… Until they seize power, then the nice words stop.
Why tolerate the intolerant? They can host whatever they want, but there’s no reason not to exclude them if they intend on bringing harm. Tbh the word “excluded” doesn’t really fit, exclusion would be like someone getting kicked out of a bar, defederating would be more like the bouncer not letting you in.
At the end of the day even if it’s gonna be defederated by every other instance, nobody’s gonna forbid them from starting their own “bar” like the one shown, which means they’re not really excluded from the fediverse.
I don’t think we should tolerate them. This is what we always hear from them when we tell them to fuck off - how many times have we seen “So much for the tolerant left!” Yeah, we are tolerant of pretty much anything that doesn’t harm others - aside from intolerance itself.
I dunno, I just don’t like the idea of defeding ppl just because of their political leanings. I’d rather wait til they start spewing hateful shit and then defed the fuckers.
But I can understand ppl who wanna keep lemmy clean of bigots. I just think we gotta wait til they show their colours then kick them to the curb. That’s me, though, I respect that others don’t feel the same.
Well, I think they should be excluded. Due to the Nazi Bar phenomena.
I remember when /r/the_Donald was just “parody”. Remember what happened there?
I mean, remember what more recently happened with /c/conservative?
I don’t think that I do
So super short version is a conservative dude or three tried to create /c/conservative and were immediately drowned out and made fun of, then they transferred moderation to others who now use it to make fun of republicans
it is a parody seemingly, according to @gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de’s comment
good thing they want to be free from the fediverse, because the fediverse should definitely be free from this shit.
defederate fascists.
I hate how maga people call themselves patriots. They are the most unamerican people ever. Everything they stand for is in direct opposition to the America ideals.
They are so immersed in the Conservative Propaganda Machine that they are literally living in an alternative reality from 2/3 of America, and the entire rest of the planet. They have created all these imaginary enemies attacking them on every front, and they think THEY are the ones living real life, and the rest of us side with their imaginary enemy.
And for some reason, the “intelligent” people that we have elected to protect us from such silliness, has decided to pretend that the MAGA nonsense, treason, and corruption, should be respected, and indulged.
They remain ‘united’ through fear. The most effective method to disarm them is to aggressively change their algorithms.
Yes I’m aware. I’m a trans person living in the deep south trying to escape. Fuck them.
Good luck to you, my friend. You have far more friends out here than you think. Look for us, we’ll help you.
Hmm, reminds me of a country that starts with R that the current US president’s trying to save.
I think that their ENEMY is actually poverty, i.e. many people struggle economically to make a living. This is due to the progress of time (automation leads to fewer jobs), but since time itself is invisible to many people, they try to find a material, outside enemy. And that’s why they blame (brown) immigration and queer people, because they appeared at the same time (in public, in the case of queer people) as the decline of living standards. So people see that and conflate correlation with causation, and blame these groups.
What’s important to me is whether people think about the situation and try to make good conclusions and proposals. What matters to me is whether MAGA actually tries to improve people’s living condition, instead of just mindlessly trying to hurt people. If they actually try to improve things, i can talk to them and find meaningful paths forward. If they’re just trying to hurt people, such a thing is impossible. So to me, it very much matters why they’re doing this. That’s what i’m researching, and also how to make meaningful plans that are in their interest that actually bring the country forward, instead of just creating more difficulties.
I know this is a lot of text all at once, but while i’m here, let me tell you that i think that it’s important that there’s a heavy investment in human spaceflight and especially in settling mars.
I’m not saying that for some delusional reasons of science fiction, but because of the very real and very heavy economic advantages that it has. A massive spaceflight program would create a lot of jobs (if you invest $1b in spaceflight, where does the money go? it goes towards companies that try to build the rockets and necessary machinery, and a large part of that money goes towards jobs and construction materials, so the money continues to circulate in the country.)
And jobs are one of the two very important things that people need to live: food and jobs. Let me illustrate this:
<img alt="" src="https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/a0ae9dd9-ce20-40a0-a53c-6054f91ffcfc.png">
As time progresses forward, we have more resources available (because our production systems work better, as they get improved all the time). but at the same time, a lot of production systems get automated and that reduces the number of jobs. Since people need jobs, new parts of the market need to be developed continuously.
What i’m saying is that if there’s a massive push towards spaceflight, somebody will have to build all of the necessary machinery, equipment, and such, and that would create a lot of jobs. It’s especially important for american people to have jobs, because americans are typically biased towards enterpreneurship and such, and that’s only possible when there’s business to be done. i think that’s a very important aspect of american society. also, martian human settlement would have the advantage that there’s real progress (new lands being explored) and that would also have some positive consequences.
While I think that your first section makes a spectacularly excellent point that I had not considered before, your second section broke my brain.
Section one: Excellent point. As Trickle Down Economics spread, and life in America slowly declined as inflation/cost of living steadily outpaced incomes at an increasingly speed, the conservatives managed to blame the problems on liberals, minorities, and immigrants. I hadn’t looked at it that way, as an excuse why Trickle Down wasn’t fixing everything, but it is absolutely true.
Section 2: You are still trying to figure out if the MAGAs motivations are valid or not? Did you just become conscious a month ago? Because it has been apparent that MAGA is about nothing but money and control since they came on the scene a decade ago. Since then, they have become indelibly tied to treason, corruption, pedophilia, racism, misogyny, ignorance, stupidity, and virtuosic incompetence. Bad Faith is their core value.
And you are still doing your research? Dude…
the leadership yes, but the people voting for them? I’m not so sure.
If you support it with your words, your actions, and your vote, then you own it. MAGA followers are every bit as bad as the leaders.
see what you’re missing is that they stand for amerikkkan ideals
Most of America has disagreed with them for idk 150 years now.
Which is why the opposition should reclaim the flag. It has become a religious fetish to MAGA, and the Left has to take it back, and reintroduce it as a symbol of Freedom, not treason pedophilia, and corruption.
They do the same thing with religion, they try to grift it while being exactly the opposite of what Christians believed in the past. The church has always been against slavery, even in like the 1500s, they aren’t perfect, but they are way away from Nazis. In America protestant white Christians poll as the group that hates human rights the most. They are also probably the least likely to help the poor or volunteer in a hospital or something. It’s just another grift for their fascist bullshit. Hitler did the same thing. He pretended to care about whatever his crowd cared about. It was all about power and always was.
The best way to defeat a huge baby is to take its blankie and become the baby yourself.
I beg to differ. The “american ideals” are to be economically prosperous, to open and run your own business, to take what is other’s (indian land), without regrets or looking back.
What i’m saying is that’s exactly what Trump thinks he’s doing. He’s not actually helping american businesses but he and his voters probably think that’s what he’s doing. So, the people themselves see it as very american.
The American ideas are freedom, liberty, and justice for all. It’s democracy and freedom from religion. It’s about rejecting kings and arming the common man.
Nah, truth be told, MAGA is about as American as apple pie. Historically speaking, that is.
Theory vs Practice
Christianity in bible vs Christians
Communism in theory vs “Communists” in practice
Its like every ideology ever. People preach their scripture, but never actually practice it.
You should check out the history and current reality of USA sometime.
What is that supposed to mean? America was founded by people who basically invented the concept of human rights as a legal term. I think England had a few rights in their constitution like the right to a Jury trial and stuff. America wasn’t perfect. People don’t understand that no slavery wasn’t really an option before the industrial revolution because slavery was the industry. Not that it makes it okay, just that you’d get conquered by literally everyone else if you didn’t have them. This is why every ancient society had slaves. It’s not just because they were evil, they were in ways, just like modern humans are in ways. It’s that societies which couldn’t defend themselves were enslaved themselves or absorbed into someone’s religious authoritarianism. Yet there is also ways they are morally superior to us, like, you used to be able to retire, to own land, to warn real money as a normal person that didn’t just evaporate away. Most governments used to only have a couple hundred laws at most, now there are hundreds of thousands of laws for governments to tear apart your life with.
We have progressed in ways sure, but also regressed in other ways. Modern humans are monotheistic. Much of the world polices which imaginary God you are allowed to worship. Humans have about as much dignity these days as slaves did in the classical world. Maybe a few more rights, particularly for minorities.
The U.S and France was the first country to actually escape full blown theocracy in 1500 years. The U.S and France were the first country where most people were equal under the law. Yes they thought Africans and Indians were less then human, but it was progress. The U.S abandoned slavery as soon as it had industry, so did Britain and most other countries.
The past 150 years, after the civil war has been a steady progress of states losing power, particularly in America. Your average American for the last 150 years despised government surveillance, they despised even the state and enforcers of the state. They despised taxes. They were almost unanimously in their support for free speech, protest, and free media. Hillary Clinton is the first candidate to even suggest censorship without getting laughed out yet it still cost her the election, Trump is losing much of his support because of the anti American agenda he has, but America has become quite stupid in recent years.
Much of this is because of economic hardship. Psychologists have known for some time that when people are hungry they develop mild schizophrenic type symptoms, like finding patterns where there are none, superstitious thinking, having a heightened sense of fear. This is essentially a way for animals to survive when things get hard. Americans are becoming dumber and more schizo because 40% of Americans don’t have jobs, and our country has no welfare, 90% of the country has no liquid of excess wealth. 50% of the country is in poverty. We are entering the phase of hyperinflation. For the past 10 years or so inflation has been around 7-15%. By the end of the year, we will be spending 600 billion on interest payments on U.S bonds, with much of it coming up to be refinanced within 5 years. That is about 1/4 of all tax income, and about 1/8 of the federal budget.
Yet our state is more concerned with mass surveillance, imperialism, mass migration, more taxes on the poor, less for the rich. Maybe things wouldn’t be so bad if the rich people of the world weren’t doing nearly everything in their power to destroy America, because they hate liberalism.
Why do they hate liberalism so much? Because they see the world as being overpopulated which is true. They see humanity as a mold on the earth, which is also partially true. They hate the old world where the little guy is not being managed. If ever there was a time to unify, it is now. They will use religion or anything else to try to get there way. If you have even a single bit of hate in your heart or a weakness in your moral character, they will use it against you. Any stupid regis belief you have, they will use it against you. The right move right now is to vote Democrat, at least for your own sake, and to try to break up the power of the state and the rich so we can put them on trial some day. They are trying to decide us because people are waking up. They are taking advantage of our psychology and human nature to divide us. This is what I mean by weakness in your morality. Not religious morality. That won’t cut it anymore. It has too many flaws, I mean true morality, as you know in your heart what is right. Most people do if they listen to it. This determines the future. The way your neighbors see you. We cannot survive unless we get our neighbors out of this mind control cult of the state. We have to get them to stop watching their propagandists, and eventually we all need to stop voting for their politicians and giving them false legitimacy. It’s ha
I am not even maga or American but it’s nice to see freedom of speech and multiple different opinions in the left infested internet echo chamber
“Boy, am i glad I’ve got somewhere to consume my fascism in peace!”
"I'm not even a nazi, but it sure is nice to see the fascists marching in the streets as a demonstration that free speech is truly alive and well"
Freedom of speech also includes the hate speech or Else, it’s just biased
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
There’s a reason so many comments of his were removed lmao. Try not to feed the trolls
Aaaaand tagged
Yeah, these people are nuts, its good to see crazies from opposite groups. I will check how good Lemmy will becomes after year or two. IG at least it will not be a echo chamber. Maybe then they will notice opposition have same pattern as them. Then hopefully they will become more open minded
The US just can’t seem to get over the Confederacy.
I think we failed in the re-education process and should have adopted something similar to post WWII Germany and crushing out nazism.
We had a reconstruction program as well as military governors in a handful of States down there after the Civil War, grants was pretty checked out and his administration was super corrupt, and his successor in the 1876 election, Hayes lost. They had those military Governors send competing slates of electors saying they won and there is a big brewhaha and it was decided they would allow the Republicans to steal that election with Hayes as president for ending reconstruction.
That’s because we didnt hang all the confederates.
Look at this way; Fediverse becomes even more popular
Does North Korea also have a fediverse instance ?
lemmygrad
Omg that explains alot
lemmy.ml
Would that mean anyone cross posting from there or using rss to post what’s there elsewhere is spreading NK propaganda? 🤔
You wouldn't believe the amount of straight propaganda I have to filter out when crossposting from there, it's another reason I can't automate it. No way I could trust automation to sufficiently filter that crap out. Russian propaganda sites like RT always seems to crop up over there with odd urls like "swentir[dot]site"
::: spoiler Why am I cross-posting .ml content?
>
So only if special users do it?.
Interesting philosophy to hate the tool while still using it and pulling others content from it.
Cool crusade you have there
No idea what you mean on this
Code is code and isn't inherently poltical it was released as open source for those to do with what they please.
Thanks! Are you going to go make another thread on hex about it :) just wanna know if I should make up a batch of popcorn
It’s okay to use when you or goat use it.
Which makes the crusade against devs odd.
Oh you go on hexbear.net? Thought they’d be hated by you! Didn’t know you also enjoyed interactions with them based on love of goat comms
Ah I see now, mere one way traffic doesn't contribute to an instance; voting, commenting and posting to its comms does, which I ofc don't do in any shape or form.
Fundamental misunderstanding, my problem stems from the fact they run an instance in an official capacity and use it to push their authoritarian ideology. As covered (and documented here) in my spoiler above
Not really, did you know Lemmy actually has a really good search function? Leagues better than Reddits own. Oh they def do and I find it funny how often I come up over there on the Lemmy-version of 4chan though LMAO
It doesn’t but keep going on the crusade. Still seems odd to do anything with an instance you consider north Korean.
Yeah so official they wanted world to be the top so they weren’t the official one…
People who associate with goat usually do
I don't, not sure where you picked that up at. I consider it to be a Tankie instance through and through as defined by:
I've seen all manner of authoritarian propaganda, from pro-DPRK "They're not a brutal dictatorship, it's just western propaganda!" To pro-Russia "Ukraine is full of Nazis and Russia is just trying to protect themselves from NATO!" To pro-CCP "Censorship is actually good!" All of which is documented on the megathread linked previously
If they didn't want, they could've ran lemmy.ml from alt accounts so nobody would associate it with them. Then it would just be another triad instance and nobody would care. But as also covered in the spoiler you didn't read, they use this position to their advantage to push their authoritarianism further
You called it one literally the start of the thread piefed.world/comment/1715340.
Why would they run what they consider the test instead with alt accounts?
And I don’t trust anything posted on meanwhile on grad, or anything associated with goat so 🤷
Oh lol yea I suppose I did, ig that's what happens when you do throwaway jokes 🤣
Hm, yea, whatever excuse you need to tell yourself to ignore evidence in front of your eyes. Not like most of what I've documented has direct link back to the source where possible or anything ¯\(ツ)/¯
Or just go to something out of context but what do I know
LMAO that doesn't even make sense, they're direct links, they'll take you to the source thread if it exists. Which, for most of my documentation, it does. You can click that little "Show Context" button/link and read each thread for yourself and gain this mystical context you seek
Ah yes, because linking can never be out of context!
If only your crusade was also against lw considering they’re okay with even worse transphobes
If you refuse to do even basic investigation into information you're being given to verify it's veracity, then how are you so sure the tankies you run with are giving you good info?
The LW admins aren't in the modlog nearly constantly like .ml admins. They crop up from time to time but only to do deal with blatant spam, advertisers, instance wide rule breaking in abandoned comms, excessive troll/misinformation spreading accounts etc. They aren't pushing a particular ideology, narrative or political agenda. Unlike on .ml.
I regularly see them site-banning accounts for transphobia nor have a noticed a transphobia problem, troll crop up and are dealt with accordingly. Also - See Nutomics transphobia here and part 2 here
I see lw more often banning or removing than ml, usually ml only does temp while world does permanent, and for ml it’s users going in specially to get banned.
One of lw top mods is currently doing transphobia and may or may not get any response from the admins
lemmy.world/post/36059687
Nutomics is a complete ass but I thought code was code?
For one, LW is 3x the size of .ml, naturally there are going to be more actions taken compared to .ml. it's equivalent to people complaining about how "crime is so much worse in NYC then [Some Small Town]".
Two, on .world moderators mod and admins admin, as it should be. By the time a .world admin is issuing something down it's because a particular user has already been problematic in individual comms and getting temp bans already OR it's a user spamming, posting ads or other harmful content (e.g. propaganda, misinformation (and even then, they let it go for a while longer than they should IMO))
Three, there's no pattern of abuse to push a particular agenda, as I have demonstrated with .ml admins. At worst, you can drum up some poor decisions
Absolutely problematic, Jordanlund should be removed. That being said JL is a mod, not an admin at the end of the day.
It does not prove systemic abuse of a respected position of a leading instance to push an agenda, unlike what is proven with the .ml admins.
While it's been 5 days, the LW admins should be given the time needed. Remember, it's essentially a bunch of humans in volunteer positions, it's not full time employment and removing such an integrated mod with large comms is no trivial task
They have acknowledged they are investigating and will take action.
<img alt="" src="https://i.imgur.com/bfGgTJ8.png">
I didn't say anything about the code, Nutomic is an admin on .ml just as much as the rest of them
So far it’s according to you it’s okay for lw to be worse because it’s larger, but ml is still the lead instance even though they said it shouldn’t be and while they haven’t done anything about jl the entire time it’s okay?
And still according to you ml is the NK instance but still not bad enough to manually mirror content for reasons even though it’s just the NK tankie instance.
This is just one of many awful mods lw has which hasn’t been doing anything about they just seem to leave once called out or allowed to continue because reasons. See flying squid and news massive admitted zionists mods.
We’re over a week in to their supposed investigation and the only place they’ve said anything about it is db0 not the initial post show casing jls awful behavior to users.
You did again in this thread on why it was okay in your mind to use said NK instance material, again odd considering how much you seem to hate said devs but 🤷, I’m not the one on a crusade to get people off not the largest instance just the test one for reasons
You misunderstood completely, or more likely, twisting words to suit your narrative. It's not worse, because there is no systemic pattern of abuse by the admins to push an agenda. As has been demonstrated with the .ml admins
LW admins don't have the credentials that .ml admins do of being the devs. LW is the largest and should be held to a certain standard. Being the admins of .ml and main Lemmy devs holds them to an even higher standard. Average people will go "Lemmy.ml? Oh it's an instance run by the developers themselves?" and forever have the association that lemmy.ml IS Lemmy therefore their harmful authoritarianism gets associated with all of Lemmy.
Even more insidious, quite a few instances that defederate from 2/3rds of the Triad don't hold the same to .ml for many reason among them fear of retaliation.
I already admitted it to being a throwaway joke, if you can't get over that oh well ¯\(ツ)/¯ They're a Tankie instance instance through and through as per the wikipedia entry posted above.
Wherever you stand on FS, he hasn't been a factor for Months now. As for these other "Zionist mods" where's the receipts?
Again. LW, like nearly every other instance, is run by volunteers and donations. 5-10 business days for any business/paid service to make a major decision is what most people come to expect. And you want to hold people running a non-profit volunteer driven instance run in spare time to an even faster timeline than businesses are? That's asinine.
Twisitng words again, you said "There's a transphobia problem eith LW" I said "Not really because of my observations, but .ml does having an actual transphobe on the admin team here's the receipts" then you went "I thought code was code!" At which point I clarified, "he's on the admin team and that is what I was referring to and nothing about his code contributions"
And then here we are with you attempting to twist words to suit your narrative
Oh cool, it’s just a joke saying it’s the NK instance. Which no you didn’t you still tried to play off wasn’t said. But also on a crusade to crush it? Weird coincidence there.
I brought up flying squid as like all the troublesome mods left on their own not removed after numerous issues.
Right it’s only been years jl has been like this, totally fair to let the admins continue to leave them there even though are more authoritarian than ml.
No this is me pointing out the same similarities others have while also using your own words for why it’s okay for you to use it to siphon content, even though it’s from that dirty tankie place.
It’s just fun watching the logic here trying to go all in on both hating lemmy devs but using lemmy. Massive conundrum
How about “israel”, saudi arabia, etc.?
Is there a handy list somewhere to defed from? I don't expect them to gain any traction unless they had an existing user base before, but would be nice to keep communal running tab.
damn, i gotta check out that place later. i wonder how MAGA will interact with the fediverse. like, how can you be anarchistic and bootlicking at the same time?
edit: this is hilarious.
<img alt="" src="https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/b95ed366-b4a5-4284-8646-c8a5968cbb87.png">
bootlicking: check ✅️
<img alt="" src="https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/3aa2a243-3c4f-4f81-ab6f-8acbd3f71ead.png">
“especially towards Americans”
<img alt="" src="https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/285b54f0-8eac-45f2-b308-d935773e76d1.png">
well, at least this one i can understand. Now i have to think about What the Turtle said to Achill, somehow.
<img alt="" src="https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/06a0b90c-e32d-4c2a-92ac-9b8a6745e4fa.png">
this gotta be a troll account. Why is there an “antifa” community on the maga.place instance?
I’m pretty sure it’s just a joke.
Maybe they’re the anarchist equivalent of the ACP.
Probably a meme instance / parody
Rule 2 seems to negate most of the defining characteristics of the MAGA movement, no?
That’s actually a very good joke.
I think a couple troll accounts sprang up on instance after my post, the actual admin though is seemingly a serious right-winger with all the trimming that entails. But does seem to be allowing those to exist ig for "free speech" lol
<img alt="" src="https://pawb.social/pictrs/image/3a714fce-6891-4511-90b4-e6777a3a0309.png">
“No hate… transphobia…” wow the admin surely follow their rules
I do not respect an illegitimate, unconstitutional government.
“All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.”
Conservatives and their pussy-ass safe spaces.
Pretty fuckin woke, if you ask me
Aaaand blocked. Thanks for the heads up!
It seems to be a meme/parody instance
Poe’s Law. But I think an entire instance being devoted to parody is a terrible idea regardless.
It looks like the admin is sincerely conservative, and some leftists joined to troll them.
Oh i see
The_donald started as parody too.
I also ended up doing the same thing, because I refuse to do business with an organization that would support clear-cutting of forests, especially those located on the east coast of the land down under that are known to have koalas inhabiting them.
Per number 3, sounds like it’s welcoming to counter culture
The most idiotic, worthless, meaningless, unabashedly moronic space in the Lemmy universe has appeared! Great.
Good to see maga entering the fediverse take away power and capitol from corporations
Calculating
Aww— leaky Nazi cunt has a cry cry
Kill yourself
They already tried to take the capitol…
There are more comments in this thread alone than this MAGA site will probably ever host. (Trolls and spammers motivated by this thread don’t count 😆 )
And honestly? The biggest takeaway from these comments is how many users don’t understand the difference between a protocol and a platform.
Sic the tankies on them
let_them_fight.gif
I hope .world will ban them…
Why would they? Only seem to hate leftist instances
If they don’t, I already did lol.
How do you do it yourself?
It’s in your filter list in settings I think.
Hot take (?):
It’s fantastic that there is a branch of MAGA who hates the corporate Internet as much as we do.
They hate it because the corpos aren’t bending the knee ENOUGH to dear leader
The enemy of my enemy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don’t think that applies if the enemy of your enemy is a Nazi/Nazi sympathizer
But the enemy is also a nazi
In Man in the High Castle, the resistance had to help a nazi officer stay alive in order to stop an even worse nazi from nuking the entire world.
spoiler
Basically, someone did a coup against hitler and the successor accused Imperial Japan of killing hitler, and he wanted to start nuking Japanese-occupied territories, but the resistance helped coverup a scandal by the nazi-American John Smith in which he tried to coverup his son’s illness to avoid the gestapo “euthanizing” him. Basically, they got John Smith to tricking the nazis to believing Imperial Japan also had nukes so that they back off, averting WW3. (Its an absurd plot, I know, but Man in the High Castle is worth watching tbh)
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Still should defed them immediately
There’s branches of conservatives who fled reddit long before we all did. But then they were all openly nazi too. Voat was one site and I forget what the other nazi reddit clone was called.
Instance owner is probably a nutjob tho
Yeah, and I dont give the instance long for the world.
And that’s how you turn em! Find common ground and work from there.
Doubt you’ll convert anyone over the internet. Its only when you meet in person, you can really have the human touch to it.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP8Oxe6OxJc (Bernie visits maga voters and turns them blue)
I mean unless you spend thousands of dollars on targeted ads in 2016 but that’s totally different.
Also accepting imperfect allies is huge.
Nor too hot or too salty. I’ll have it.
Or they were too toxic for Reddit and were banned over there.
That’s literally how Lemmy got its start - from people who left Reddit not so much by choice, as later waves did, but rather by being so toxic that even Reddit wouldn’t put up with it.
There’s a community on my home server, hoping more fascists come here… Of course, all posts are locked, and only approved posters can contribute to their “Free Speech Home” lol.
Laughing at the 1 user count
100% a parody instance: maga.place/post/2245?scrollToComments=true
<img alt="img" src="https://media.piefed.world/posts/PD/V5/PDV5kwKtdxE4xke.jpg">
Even mention Epstein+Trump like that would be a site-wide shadowban posted on /r/conservative.
It’s good though. It’s plausibly pro trump.
No, that’s another user trolling on there.
I dunno, still feels like a honeypot to me, lol.
r/thedonald started out as a parody subreddit but quickly got overrun by chuds who didn’t realise it was a joke
Wait, really? I think that happened with /r/murica too.
It’s what happens to all irony-poisoned communities who don’t aggressively moderate.
created by a lad called Artem — what’re the odds
So are they not part of the fediverse if they don’t link up with other instances? 'Cause if not, then all they’re saying is they censor things too because they are part of the fediverse…
gross.
Another hive of pedophiles. Wonderful.
Safe spaces? Sounds like snowflakes to me
They’ve been the snowflakes all along.
Bunch of Snowflakes trying to act like a Tough Walls
Maybe we can infect a few and switch them to socialist. We can’t kill them all.
I sometimes forget just how many tyrants use this platform.
The very purpose of the fediverse is to make censorship impossible as it’s decentralized, open source, and easily accessible to all. Meaning that anyone, anywhere can utilize these tools to launch their own platform on their own terms without fear of being censored. This applies to everyone, not just some.
The very existence of this instance, which is clearly just a parody, is enough to send a good chunk of the freedom lovers here to quickly take the mask off and turn into Mao where they want to take down the instance, infiltrate it, and censor it. The fact they can’t is proof that fediverse is working as intended. I, for one, welcome people from all over to use the fediverse. Having a social media that’s controlled by the people instead of corporations is a big plus for me.
based-pilled take
Most people here strongly seem like they wanted a more leftist Reddit.
Bluesky as well, but for X.
The concept of an entirely new ecosystem, free of authoritarian control, escapes people.
Of course we do not all have to federate with one another and share content, but to infiltrate and deny their existence entirely… is just another form of control. The accusation becomes revealed as a confession, now where have I heard that before…?
At some point the division becomes not Left vs. Right but extremist vs. non. Though I admit to lacking a fully matured understanding there as to whether that is justified or not, it’s just that I am saying that this distinction exists.
.
Congratulations, you are being rescued! Do not resist.
Get it crossposted to !fediblock