On discourse and decentralisation

On discourse and decentralisation (connectedplaces.online)
from wisdomchicken@piefed.social to fediverse@lemmy.world on 10 Sep 17:28
https://piefed.social/post/1249475

On Discourse and Decentralisation

The Community Group for #ActivityPub is drafting an open letter calling for respect and collaboration between the people working on the different protocols in the open social web.

I’m signing the letter, and with it, I have some thoughts regarding discourse, decentralisation and why I think this space matters.

#fediverse

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underline960@sh.itjust.works on 10 Sep 20:37 next collapse

In a post where she signs the open letter, ActivityPub co-author Christine Lemmer-Webber summarises the changing world well:

“This is actually a really important time for that message to come across, because our communities do both face major threats which I believe we are ideologically aligned in wanting to face:

We are facing a large number of laws which appear well-intentioned and aimed to try to take on tech gatekeepers, but unintentionally build regulatory moats that allow only gatekeepers to participate, and which threaten user freedom at large.

The rise of techno-fascism and omnisurveillance affects all users. Neither ATProto nor ActivityPub, at present, are built in such a way that they can provide the levels of protections necessary to respond to the needs of activists and community members against nation-state level threats.

These are our existential threats, not each other. And we need to figure out how to work together.”

I’m reading this as “be nice to the Bluesky guys, because we have a bigger problem to deal with.”

That’s fine, I’m not inclined to be mentally ill at strangers on the internet.

But I’m also not going to call it decentralized when it’s meaningfully not, and I’m going to keep an eye on where their money comes from.

We have a common enemy in government control.

But if you’re going to be my friend, I need you to not lie to my face.

Ulrich@feddit.org on 11 Sep 19:01 collapse

Yeah, I’m seeing a lot of misdirection and reframing of the situation here. Should we be “cool” and “respectful”, yes, absolutely. Should we all agree ATP is a good idea and worth adopting? Absolutely not. It should be rejected until they figure out how to properly decentralize. As of now the protocol itself seems to fundamentally require so many resources that it disqualifies it from any sort of meaningful discussion. I hope to be wrong. Maybe as they inevitably grow to become excessively shittier, some other hosts will step in.

I was wrong.

Blaze@lemmy.zip on 11 Sep 19:11 collapse

As of now the protocol itself seems to fundamentally require so many resources that it disqualifies it from any sort of meaningful discussion.

Cannot that be done for 40$ per month? whtwnd.nat.vg/bnewbold.net/3lo7a2a4qxg2l

@irelephant@anarchist.nexus @airportline@lemmy.zip

@irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com

Edit: for an example on how to create an account: feddit.org/post/18642154/8860187

Ulrich@feddit.org on 11 Sep 19:15 next collapse

I cant even see this text without agreeing to a ToS and I’m simply not doing that.

I’m not at all an expert on the subject, but I would ask: if it’s so easy and cheap, why aren’t more people hosting them? As far as I can tell there are only a handful in existence.

Blaze@lemmy.zip on 11 Sep 19:18 next collapse

Piefed is cheap to host too, but only a few people host instances.

I just learned about Blacksky which is independent from Bluesky but uses ATProto

Ulrich@feddit.org on 11 Sep 19:22 collapse

PieFed is much newer, has many many MANY fewer users, and seems to already have many more instances.

Blaze@lemmy.zip on 11 Sep 19:40 next collapse

Piefed also has different features than Lemmy, which incites people to start instances.

About the number of ATProto PDS and relays, didn’t you already got a much larger list in this comment? feddit.org/post/18498447/8800070

github.com/mary-ext/atproto-scraping

Ulrich@feddit.org on 11 Sep 19:52 collapse

If you actually click those links there’s nothing there.

Blaze@lemmy.zip on 11 Sep 20:04 collapse

Here how I used it:

Go to deer.social
Click "Create account"
When offered the choice to use a server, select one from the list (I used " bsky.aenead.net " for instance)

Fill the form, get you account validated

Then use it to login on deer.social

Here is my account for instance: deer.social/…/did:plc:yhwzvt4bab4o743dhg5rfctw

Ulrich@feddit.org on 11 Sep 20:16 collapse

That’s helpful, thank you. This is something I have deliberately looked for and been unable to find, which is disappointing. I’m happy to admit I was wrong.

Blaze@lemmy.zip on 11 Sep 20:18 collapse

No worries, happy to help!

irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 11 Sep 19:42 collapse

github.com/mary-ext/atproto-scraping/
Piefed has fewer instances, really.

Blaze@lemmy.zip on 11 Sep 19:46 next collapse

It’s a bit surprising as it seems you already provided that link recently: feddit.org/post/18498447/8800070

Ulrich@feddit.org on 11 Sep 19:55 collapse

All of these links just lead to blank pages.

irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 11 Sep 20:03 collapse

Checking this one: blacksky.app

It returns this:

spoiler (click to show)

) ) * ) ( ( /( ( /( ( ` ( /( )\ ) )$)) )\()) )$)( )\()) (()/( ( ((_)\ ((_)\ ((_)()\ ((_)\ /(_)) )\ _((_) ((_) (_()((_) ((_) (_)) ((_) | \| | / _ \ | \/ | / _ \ | _ \ | __| | .` | | (_) | | |\/| | | (_) | | / | _| |_|\_| \___/ |_| |_| \___/ |_|_\ |___| ( ) ( ( ) ) )\ ) ( /( )\ ) * ) )\ ) * ) ( /( * ) ( /( (()/( )\()) ( ( (()/( ` ) /( ( (()/( ` ) /( )\()) ` ) /( )\()) ( /(_)) ((_)\ )\ )\ /(_)) ( )(_)) )\ /(_)) ( )(_)) ((_)\ ( )(_)) ((_)\ )\ (_)) _((_) ((_)((_) (_)) (_(_()) ((_) (_)) (_(_()) ((_) (_(_()) _((_) ((_) |_ _| | \| | \ \ / / |_ _| |_ _| | __| / __| |_ _| / _ \ |_ _| | || | | __| | | | .` | \ V / | | | | | _| \__ \ | | | (_) | | | | __ | | _| |___| |_|\_| \_/ |___| |_| |___| |___/ |_| \___/ |_| |_||_| |___| ) ) ) ) ( ( /( ( /( ( /( ( /( * ) )\ )\()) )\()) )\()) )\()) ( ` ) /( (((_) ((_)\ ((_)\ |((_)\ ((_)\ )\ ( )(_)) )\___ ((_) ((_) |_ ((_) ((_) _ ((_) (_(_()) ((/ __| / _ \ / _ \ | |/ / / _ \ | | | | |_ _| | (__ | (_) | | (_) | ’ < | (_) | | |_| | | | \___| \___/ \___/ _|\_\ \___/ \___/ |_| This is an AT Protocol Personal Data Server (aka, an atproto PDS) operated by Blacksky Algorithms Most API routes are under /xrpc/ Code: https://github.com/blacksky-algorithms Support: https://opencollective.com/blacksky Protocol: https://atproto.com/

which isn’t blank, and describes what it is.

That specific repo indexes PDSes only.
If you’re looking for something closer to a full instance (like on activitypub) wafrn may interest you, it’s a bit more niche though.

Ulrich@feddit.org on 11 Sep 20:06 collapse

which isn’t blank, and describes what it is.

But nothing about what to do with it. What is a prospective user supposed to do with this?

Blaze@lemmy.zip on 11 Sep 20:07 next collapse

feddit.org/post/18642154/8860187

irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 11 Sep 20:11 collapse

Go to their preferred appview (like bsky.app, blacksky.community or zeppelin.social) and make an account there.

Blaze@lemmy.zip on 11 Sep 19:43 next collapse

Edited the link to whtwnd.nat.vg/bnewbold.net/3lo7a2a4qxg2l thanks to @airportline@lemmy.zip comment above

irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 11 Sep 19:45 collapse

whtwnd.nat.vg/bnewbold.net/3lo7a2a4qxg2l from airportline@lemmy.zip

airportline@lemmy.zip on 11 Sep 19:21 collapse

By the way, Whitewind requires you to accept their privacy policy just to read a blog post.

This is what it looks like.

You can use this website to bypass it.

Here is a link for the blog post you just cited.

irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 11 Sep 19:45 collapse

You could paste the link into pdsls.dev as well to see the record :P
pdsls.dev/at://…/3lo7a2a4qxg2l

direct PDS link pds.robocracy.org/…/com.atproto.repo.getRecord?re…

airportline@lemmy.zip on 11 Sep 22:35 collapse

I didn’t know you could do this.

Amazing lol

rimu@piefed.social on 10 Sep 22:56 next collapse

All this rests on the implied assertion that ATProto is part of the open social web.

I don't know the answer to that and I don't really care to find out.

wisdomchicken@piefed.social on 11 Sep 07:22 next collapse

open social web is used here as a descriptive term, to mean the collection of networks that includes activitypub, atproto, nostr (and potentially more like matrix and farcaster, depending on your inclination).

whether open social web is the correct term or not does not really matter, because if it was not than i would simply have to replace it with another term that describes the exact same thing

Ulrich@feddit.org on 11 Sep 18:55 next collapse

Is it “open” sure, but not in any meaningful way as long as 99.99% of users are hosted by the same server.

irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 11 Sep 20:04 next collapse

I’d say it is, since atproto is, at the very least, open.

Blaze@lemmy.zip on 11 Sep 20:13 next collapse

Comment explaining how to create an account without any of the Bluesky infra:

feddit.org/post/18642154/8860187

Example of independent ATProto platform: blackskyweb.xyz

Kirk@startrek.website on 16 Sep 13:05 collapse

It’s “open” in the same way that cryptocurrencies are “open”. It doesn’t matter how technically decentralized the power structure is when someone owns more than 99% of the tokens.

flamingos@feddit.uk on 11 Sep 04:09 next collapse

The discourse around decentralisation has elevated a form of network architecture that facilitates and contributes to a healthier social internet into a goal into itself.

Big agree with this.

Kirk@startrek.website on 16 Sep 13:00 collapse

There is hard evidence that BlueSky’s users are centralized on a single instance: arewedecentralizedyet.online

There is hard evidence that the word “centralized” means “cluster around a center”: www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/centralize

There is hard evidence that bluesky is for profit company: bsky.social/about/blog/2-7-2022-overview

BlueSky is a for profit company was started by Jack Dorsey, a cryptocurrency booster. The the CEO of BlueSky has a background in crypto.

Cryptocurrency also claims to be “technically decentralized” while missing the point of while actual, real, decentralization is important for social media. When someone owns 99% of a token, the power is concentrated there.

Bluesky is centralized and for profit. The company is lying to you. There is no need to “work together” with someone who is lying to you.

Blaze@lemmy.zip on 16 Sep 13:47 collapse

Pixelfed has 112k monthly active users, 89k being on a single instance

Does this make Pixelfed centralized ?

lemmy.zip/post/48357775/21408588

Where does Bluesky intervene in that sign up and usage process?

Kirk@startrek.website on 16 Sep 14:12 collapse

How many whatabboutisms do you have to do each day per account to earn your btc?

bluesky is a for profit company: bsky.social/about/blog/2-7-2022-overview

Bluesky is centralized and for profit.

Blaze@lemmy.zip on 16 Sep 14:18 collapse

I do not earn BTC talking about AT Proto.

I mod !fedigrow@lemmy.zip and !fedibridge@lemmy.dbzer0.com , and try to make the ActivityPub platform grow and better known.

Qualifying someone as being paid by Bluesky when talking about non-Bluesky managed AT Proto platforms such as deer.social or Blacksky doesn’t appear as good faith for conversations.

Kirk@startrek.website on 16 Sep 14:32 next collapse

There is hard evidence that BlueSky’s users are centralized on a single instance: arewedecentralizedyet.online

Bluesky is centralized and for profit.

Blaze@lemmy.zip on 16 Sep 14:33 collapse

We can loop back to lemmy.zip/post/48357775/21510389

When Gmail started supporting XMPP, did that mean that XMPP as a protocol wasn’t decentralized?

Kirk@startrek.website on 16 Sep 14:46 collapse

For someone ALLEGEDLY not being paid by the for profit company bluesky, you sure are doing a lot of whataabouting and deflecting for them!

bluesky is a for profit company: bsky.social/about/blog/2-7-2022-overview

Bluesky is centralized and for profit.

HubertManne@piefed.social on 16 Sep 15:56 collapse

It was actually sorta funny to see an accusation against a fediverse member I know well enough from posts to roll my eyes at. I think I had someone call me a tankie the other day not that long after I had an interminable argument with a workers owning the means of production level socialist.