Is Lemmy.ml missing from the fediverse explorer?
from geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml to fediverse@lemmy.world on 12 Jun 07:35
https://lemmy.ml/post/16780609

I was browsing the fediverse explorer and did not find lemmy.ml in the instances list.

#fediverse

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Blaze@reddthat.com on 12 Jun 07:40 next collapse

It is, someone should probably open an issue on the Github: github.com/tgxn/lemmy-explorer/issues

Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world on 12 Jun 08:18 collapse

…or don’t.

My understanding is that Lemmy.ml is not exactly a nice place. Lots of drama. I’m staying out. But it very well might be a bad starting point for new users.

Then again I’M a new user, and I have next to no idea what’s going on.

Blaze@reddthat.com on 12 Jun 08:25 collapse

There is some drama, but at the same time some only exist there (see this post: lemmy.world/post/16235541)

For instance

So I wouldn’t say it’s such a good idea to not show them at all.

Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works on 12 Jun 08:49 next collapse

That’s okay, they can move.

Blaze@reddthat.com on 12 Jun 09:19 collapse

They can, but hiding those useful communities from people who are probably just trying to troubleshoot their systems doesn’t seem helpful

chiisana@lemmy.chiisana.net on 12 Jun 10:19 collapse

For projects, where they have their community presence also speaks to their ideology. Those projects’ communities chose to move off of Reddit, and be on Lemmy; those projects’ communities chose the instance they’re on.

One may plea ignorance in the early days of Lemmy, that they’re misguided by the instance description; but now a year later after all the drama, their decision to remain there will start to influence who will be able to interact with their community.

I have no sympathy for communities that chose to remain on CSAM infested instances that got defederated, and I will have no sympathy for project communities that continues to associate with ideologies by the ml admins.

[deleted] on 12 Jun 11:51 next collapse

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Blaze@reddthat.com on 12 Jun 12:18 collapse

The communities above are not managed by a project organisation (the only one I know if !librewolf@lemmy.ml), it’s just that until last week, lemmy.ml was considered the go-to instance for FOSS and Linux.

Network effect is here, I know it first hand as I’ve been busy posting to !linux@programming.dev to try to offer people an alternative to the lemmy.ml community.

But I’m not planning to do that with the communities above, and same for the other FOSS communities, because I have other stuff to do

The vast majority of people going to those communities just want a place with enough people to answer their questions on the topic. They are not going to organize a migration, most of them are probably not even aware of the issues with lemmy.ml administration (seems like the post got removed from lemmy.ml: lemmy.ml/comment/11606059)

I see where you come from, and I get it to an extend, but the vast majority of people are probably going to keep going to those communities without any change.

If someone wants to organize a migration of those above communities (the thread I linked above can be a starting point), feel free, but I wouldn’t count on it. And without an active migration, those communities will stay the reference for those topics.

On an interesting note, !collapse@lemmy.ml move to !collapse@lemm.ee recently.

Shatur@lemmy.ml on 12 Jun 13:31 collapse

seems like the post got removed from lemmy.ml: lemmy.ml/comment/11606059

I edited my comment. Looks like they banned the user, this is why the post is missing. And it’s kinda unfortunate :(

Shatur@lemmy.ml on 12 Jun 10:49 next collapse

Didn’t know! Were there any responses from the .ml admins?

I also noticed that this post is not available on lemmy.ml, apparently they banned the post. Looks like they banned the OP from the instance.

It looks like admins from .ml ban people who write bad things about CCP and .world admins ban people who can write bad things about US imperialism. They both think that they fight trolls and usually it’s the case.

For example, the banned OP wrote something like “Why, to ban criticism about China more actively?” in feddit.nl/comment/10140068 (6 days ago, while the post was created 9 month ago!) which is definitely not okay behavior.

Eldritch@lemmy.world on 12 Jun 17:18 collapse

I criticize US imperialism all the time. Not even a warning let alone a ban. So I don’t think that’s the case.

Shatur@lemmy.ml on 12 Jun 22:39 collapse

You are right, I said it wrong.

They mostly ban for being a tankie.

OpenStars@discuss.online on 12 Jun 12:11 next collapse

This is a bit of a tangent though - OP was talking about instances, which at least one person said was removed deliberately so as not to overload them - so presumably by their own consent and likely even request?

Whereas here you are talking about communities, which should be visible across the Federation regardless - subject to the standard, complex set of rules (which you are working to lower the barrier for with all your alts pre-subscribing:-).

And to complicate matters further, it sounds like these communities have been missing from that list for many months now already. So this truly might be a unique situation, if that instance has actively removed consent to be listed there? Perhaps they would reconsider offering their consent to listing the communities if asked though?

Blaze@reddthat.com on 12 Jun 14:03 collapse

which at least one person said was removed deliberately so as not to overload them - so presumably by their own consent and likely even request

Presumably being the key word here. It’s not clear based on this comment. It might have been a Lemmyverse decision to remove all of the .ml communities because they disagreed with the instance admins political stances.

OpenStars@discuss.online on 12 Jun 14:22 collapse

Right, I was raising awareness of that specter and suggesting that it would need follow-up research into the history. It looks like that website was announced a year ago but I found nothing (except this OP) about “explorer” & “lemmy.ml” by a quick search in this community or in other communities too. At a guess it would have been discussed offline, i.e. Matrix rather than Lemmy.

Blaze@reddthat.com on 12 Jun 14:48 collapse

Look at this comment: feddit.nl/comment/10290637

It’s affecting every 0.19.4 instance, not only lemmy.ml

OpenStars@discuss.online on 12 Jun 21:35 collapse

Fwiw, it has been 7 days since I told you that it was missing from that list. But yeah, it could have been the changes prior to the official roll-out of that version.

Although, v0.19.4 is one possibility yes, but it is also possible that the instance was missing prior to that as well, if they had asked for it to be due to the incoming flood from the Rexodus? i.e. this is not enough to reject the null hypothesis that both things might be true at the same time.

I do not say this b/c of my bias against them - if hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml are there, then lemmy.ml should likewise not be non-consensually removed either, the issue is whether they asked for it to be removed, or not.

Speaking of, it would be good to place a warning about all 3 of them - people should be free to do as they please, but part of that freedom entails having the knowledge to make a choice. Silence in the face of oppression is not “freedom”, as e.g. Ukranians realize better than any of us today, sadly:-(. Like porn, it is fine for someone to walk in with full knowledge of what lies ahead, it is when it surprises a naive unaware person that it causes problems.

Blaze@reddthat.com on 12 Jun 21:42 collapse

Fwiw, it has been 7 days since I told you that it was missing from that list.

Lemmy.ml deployed 0.19.4 around 13 days ago (local communities were made available in that release): lemmy.ml/post/16252832

it would be good to place a warning about all 3 of them

Where, and how? Seems tedious to write a satisfying message with “don’t go there for politics, but it’s probably the best place for FOSS content” that wouldn’t confuse new joiners

OpenStars@discuss.online on 12 Jun 22:56 collapse

First, practically speaking, do you run that site or have some ability to modify it? You mention it a lot, but it was a different account that introduced it to the Fediverse (that I could find with my search), so I was not sure if you were merely promoting it or something deeper. Otherwise we are merely discussing theoretical possibilities here but it is up to whoever owns or maintains that site to do whatever they want with it… and they likewise should have a record of having been explicitly asked to remove that instance, if such a request existed. So even if you were to do a feature request or full-on git code contribution to fix it, having some contact with the actual owner/maintainer sounds necessary, to avoid potentially doing something non-consensual on behalf of lemmy.ml, which they have (may have) explicitly asked to be the opposite?

Second, is it the “best place for FOSS content”? I just blocked that entire instance, so I will miss out on all future posts, regardless of whether the community was politically affiliated or not. Ironically it might have been you that convinced me to take that course of action (though I could be misremembering the username, sorry if that is the case, or perhaps you were merely part of a 4/5-way, which does strike a note), with something said months ago about how most of the toxic interactions came from there, after blocking hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml. I was advocating essentially (paraphrase here) that “at least positive conversations can be had on the Fediverse, whereas on Reddit I had to give up on that entirely outside of niche subs, and so far I have not had sufficiently negative encounters with people on lemmy.ml to want to block that instance fully (like those other two), but indeed >90% of the time when I get the most batshit insane replies it is from them; though not always b/c that is something to be expected from any large instance?” Since then, the line got crossed in my mind and I just blocked it and have not looked back. I will miss some interactions, yet I do not care: those that remain will be sufficient, and contain far less hassle. It is like filtering water: yes it will contain less taste, but it will also contain less fecal matter too:-P, and I have gotten to the point where that is what I am looking for, in every community that I visit now, not just the “non-political” ones.

I recognize that my individual user instance block would be irrelevant to this conversation if it were unique or even rare, however it is not. Many others are talking about already having done that as well, and potentially many more will do so in the future, especially as new users arrive and are told (some of them by me:-D, but again I am far from the only one who does this). I feel that I have done my due diligence in that particular respect - I have warned innocent users of lemmy.ml that they will increasingly be locked out of good conversations, as in worse than not seeing them, they will reply to people and never get a response no matter how long they wait, b/c we will not even receive their notifications. And then I waited for days for people’s replies to continue… and then I simply moved on. If they remain there, that is their choice, but I will not remain personally federated with that instance by choice. Furthermore, if a major instance were to defederate with all 3 of the axis powers instances, I would join it and not even be able to view their responses in the first place. Over time I predict that it will become more and more of an echo chamber, where they shout into the void, and ofc have conversations amongst themselves, but in isolation from what is going on in the rest of the world. At least as it pertains to my account, and again I am far from the only one (though I do not know the stats - possibly some instance admin could anonymously count how many instance-blocks to it its users do? lets say the ones who have done some activity on that account in the past week, although you and I both maintain alts and yet I don’t always keep any of mine except my main fully updated in such matters, so even that would be an over-counting as all my older ones, even if I posted something from it, would still not have user-blocked it). Or someone will do a poll at some point.

I hope you continue your efforts to help migrate those communities elsewhere. But the reason I say that is for their sake - whereas for my own sake, I’ve already settled the matter (until I can move to an instance that has a full instance block and do so still more firmly). I am satisfied, and if they want to gate that content to solely users federated with that instance, then that is their choice, but I have made mine. And I see others individually stating that choice for themselves as well. This is happening - the admins & so MANY of the users on that instance have earned a reputation: they

Blaze@reddthat.com on 13 Jun 07:35 collapse

First, practically speaking, do you run that site or have some ability to modify it?

I don’t, which is why I linked to th e Github issues and suggested that someone opened an issue. Nobody did so far, but the 0.19.4 issue impacted another github.com/maltfield/…/46

SpaceCadet@feddit.nl on 14 Jun 13:16 collapse

Those communities should be urged to move away from lemmy.ml.

Blaze@reddthat.com on 14 Jun 14:44 collapse

Feel free to organize the migration

SpaceCadet@feddit.nl on 15 Jun 09:21 collapse

I am one of the victims of the censorship you say doesn’t happen, so I am banned on lemmy.ml for making a comment about the Tiananmen Square massacre.

replied to the wrong comment

Blaze@reddthat.com on 15 Jun 09:30 collapse

Where did I say that censorship does not happen?

I’ve been busy posting to !linux@programming.dev for the last week following your post.

You don’t need to have an account on lemmy.ml to organize the migration (I did not post there). Organizing the migration means

SpaceCadet@feddit.nl on 15 Jun 09:50 collapse

Where did I say that censorship does not happen?

You didn’t, I got your comment mixed up with what someone else said on another comment chain, and I apologize.

Blaze@reddthat.com on 15 Jun 09:51 collapse

No worries! I was also a bit harsh, I edited my comment.

ricdeh@lemmy.world on 12 Jun 07:47 next collapse

I’d call that a win

lodion@aussie.zone on 12 Jun 07:49 next collapse

It was removed deliberately during the reddit exodus in order to direct new Lemmy users elsewhere. Rather than to overload lemmy.ml further.

Blaze@reddthat.com on 12 Jun 08:03 next collapse

Oh, interesting. I guess now it should probably be added back

Lucidlethargy@sh.itjust.works on 12 Jun 08:26 next collapse

Naw… It’s okay. We’re good.

Lemminary@lemmy.world on 12 Jun 08:28 next collapse

Yep.

ademir@lemmy.eco.br on 14 Jun 03:19 collapse

lemmy.world should be removed though.

Resol@lemmy.world on 15 Jun 14:05 collapse

Now I wish I can move between instances without losing everything.

eran_morad@lemmy.world on 12 Jun 09:43 collapse

Shithole instance.

Artemis@lemmy.ml on 12 Jun 11:54 next collapse

I’m on Lemmy.ml and am anything but a “tankie”. Love it here. Tonnes of tech/varied posts in my main subscribed feed and I’ve never noticed anything other than a minimal dose of drama…Facebook or Reddit are much more toxic in comparison which is part of the reason I left those places.

Blaze@reddthat.com on 12 Jun 12:05 next collapse

Plenty of nice people on Lemmy.ml, sorry for the commenter above

Eldritch@lemmy.world on 12 Jun 17:13 collapse

There are some nice people. However that does not negate the glaring issues with the instance.

[deleted] on 12 Jun 17:24 collapse

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barsquid@lemmy.world on 12 Jun 12:51 next collapse

As long as you don’t post any uncomfortable facts about China.

muntedcrocodile@lemm.ee on 12 Jun 13:44 collapse

Ur getting a censored experience the censorship they have locally is hardcore.

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 12 Jun 20:43 collapse

This is the type of comment written by people that talk about .ml but never actually go to .ml

Plenty of uncensored criticism of both China and Russia. Just don’t scream at everyone that they are a tankie.

Socsa@sh.itjust.works on 12 Jun 21:12 next collapse

Lmao. I have been to .ml plenty. I have gotten banned for simply mentioning the time Russia shot down a civilian airliner. Twice!

[deleted] on 14 Jun 13:15 next collapse

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Blaze@reddthat.com on 14 Jun 14:43 collapse

Are insults really necessary?

calcopiritus@lemmy.world on 23 Jun 17:33 collapse

<img alt="I guess it’s racist to criticize the unelected government of china now." src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/fe6bfa11-29ea-45e3-ab9b-05f5c6ee9910.jpeg">

Context: rule 1 is about xenophobia/racism.

Yep. Plenty of china criticism allowed in .ml

Blaze@reddthat.com on 23 Jun 17:46 next collapse

Interesting

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 24 Jun 08:23 collapse

Thanks for linking this, this is indeed more censorship than I have seen from other users and this does adjust my opinion of their censorship. Most of your comment is not entirely accurate (and weird as infrastructure is what the public uses) but this line does stand out

They should not have their entire population as slaves

Anyway I don’t think that deserves a ban. Thanks for the heads up.

calcopiritus@lemmy.world on 24 Jun 08:29 collapse

Yeah that’s not accurate. They have plenty of oligarchs. Only most of their population is enslaved.

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 24 Jun 12:32 collapse

One could argue Americans are also slaves. Spam lists like this one. Japan is another Asian society with extreme workloads but they don’t get these comments.

The standard of living has massive increased in China over the last 50 years. Their population has been worked to the bone, but it didn’t just lead to nothing. We deem China to be almost a first world country. Often slightly worse but on the upper end of the second world. The rail infrastructure part is an example of what it did achieve which is why it’s weird to “China bad” on that specific post.

Nonetheless I’d rather have seen a discussion than the mods just banning you.

marcos@lemmy.world on 12 Jun 17:27 next collapse

That’s quite a bad way to express yourself.

But then, the Lemmy front-page sending unsuspecting new people into a place where they will censored if they try to speak against of dictators and human rights violations isn’t a good thing. So yeah, Lemmy is better with the ML not listed.

thoro@lemmy.ml on 13 Jun 04:57 collapse

Well it’s definitely not Reddit lite.

thoro@lemmy.ml on 13 Jun 05:01 collapse

Also, to push people to other instances to avoid centralization.

Best instance stays winning.

Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world on 12 Jun 08:14 next collapse

Uhhhhhhh…I don’t know. I just got here a month ago. I spent May smoking so much weed that I do NOT remember the bulk of May. Including the days that led me to Lemmy.

All I know, is I went through a very bad time in late April. So I just said to myself “too much shit is going down. I don’t even give a fuck anymore.”

And so it was. I was baked out of my mind for like 3-4 weeks straight. I’ve never done that before, but honestly, I needed that.

And now that I’m sober, somehow I mostly know what I’m doing within my own bubble on lemmy, but I would NOT call myself an advanced power user of Lemmy.

I learned while high, and although I retained what I learned, I don’t remember learning it.

So now this is a new thing about Lemmy. I know of browse.feddit.de but I don’t know of fediverse explorer.

Explain the difference between the thing I linked, which I think I was told is the be all end all of Lemmy community searching, and this Fediverse Explorer?

I’m excited for this Fediverse. I’m all in on this. I love the seperation, the redundancy, the freedom. But I feel like I’m in kindergarten, and you guys are like “check out this algebra!”

And I’m like “Do what now?”

Blaze@reddthat.com on 12 Jun 08:23 next collapse

Explain the difference between the thing I linked, which I think I was told is the be all end all of Lemmy community searching, and this Fediverse Explorer?

They have a different way to present things. I prefer Fediverse Explorer (more information with the table format), but to each their own.

Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world on 12 Jun 10:02 collapse

Ah. So it’s not one being better than the other. It’s more a case of layout taste.

THIS IS WHY I LOVE THIS FEDIVERSE!!!

Other platforms would tell you “this is what this service is, this is how it looks, it’s all you’re getting, so kneel down, shut the fuck up and take this corporate dick down your throat!”

Meanwhile the fediverse is more like:

“This is the thing you use. It’s great!”

And then another guy is like “No, wait, try this instead. It’s better.”

So now you have to try both, snd make your own conclusion.

Or maybe there’s a third thing I don’t even know about. Theres no law saying that ONLY two options are available. There’s no limit. You could show me 500 different options.

Nobody can tell you what to use, what not to use, whats better…thats all stuff for the user to decide.

imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works on 12 Jun 08:30 next collapse

Nice one dude. High memories run deep 😤

This is your guy

They basically do the same thing but the interface is better on this one.

harrys_balzac@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 12 Jun 20:03 next collapse

Oooooohhhhhh…thank you! I’ve been on Lemmy for a bit but still have a lot to learn about the fediverse.

hamid@vegantheoryclub.org on 14 Jun 13:40 collapse

Weird my vegantheoryclub.org instance shows up on browse.feddit.de but not lemmyverse.net

For some reason !weedtime@lemmy.world is not on browse.feddit.de but is on lemmyverse.net

imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works on 14 Jun 14:39 collapse

Huh that is weird.

Thanks for the community though, don’t know how I’ve never seen that one yet. Lemmy is actually bigger than people think sometimes.

hamid@vegantheoryclub.org on 27 Jun 22:42 collapse

I figured this all out and it was all my fault. I had a WAF rule blocking fediverse traffic on by accident and my instance had the allow list configured by me while stoned and I didn’t realize that blocked everything that wasn’t on it.

AmidFuror@fedia.io on 12 Jun 12:57 next collapse

I don't know how to answer your question, but I do have a long unrelated anecdote to share followed by some questions of my own.

fuckingkangaroos@lemm.ee on 12 Jun 17:28 collapse

Good luck with your hard times. It gets better

crimeschneck@feddit.nl on 12 Jun 14:23 next collapse

I’m assuming this has something to do with the update to 19.4 that somehow messed up the Lemmy Crawler. awesome-lemmy-instances seems to have a similar problem.

I don’t think @lodion@aussie.zone’s information is correct because I remember seeing lemmy.ml in the instance filter list just a while ago.

Also: What does any of this have to do with the moderation of lemmy.ml? I also don’t like their moderation but does that mean the instance and their communities shouldn’t be visible on the Lemmy Explorer? Who should decide which instance should or should not be included on the list? If you want to avoid the instance like I do you can just use the filter to remove lemmy.ml communities on the community browser of the Lemmy Explorer.

Blaze@reddthat.com on 12 Jun 14:47 collapse

Thanks, I just noticed lemm.ee, lemmy.zip, lemmy.ca etc. missing too, so definitely a 19.4 issue.

Also: What does any of this have to do with the moderation of lemmy.ml? I also don’t like their moderation but does that mean the instance and their communities shouldn’t be visible on the Lemmy Explorer? Who should decide which instance should or should not be included on the list? If you want to avoid the instance like I do you can just use the filter to remove lemmy.ml communities on the community browser of the Lemmy Explorer.

Strong agree.

Raffster@lemmy.world on 12 Jun 19:44 next collapse

That’s a good thing!

[deleted] on 13 Jun 04:56 collapse

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