jointhefediverse.net - Why was Lemmy removed from the list of fediverse alternatives? (github.com)
from teohhanhui@lemmy.world to fediverse@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 19:24
https://lemmy.world/post/24085242

jointhefediverse.net seems to be a commonly linked resource for directing people to join the Fediverse.

Curiously, it does not list Lemmy under the list of Reddit alternatives. Their GitHub README explains why.

Previous relevant discussion: lemmy.ml/post/78808

#fediverse

threaded - newest

catloaf@lemm.ee on 09 Jan 19:40 next collapse

Lemmy was removed due to:

  • reports of how the developers handle certain types of content (post removed, view an incomplete archive)
  • the behavior of its creator
  • how the sotware itself handles users’ privacy.

All valid concerns.

Skiluros@sh.itjust.works on 09 Jan 19:56 next collapse

Point 1 and 2 really need to be addressed.

It would be so much better if lemmy wasn’t developed by genocide white-washing tankies.

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 20:36 next collapse

piefed.social is catching up

[deleted] on 09 Jan 21:20 next collapse

.

Suoko@feddit.it on 09 Jan 21:58 next collapse

Python based: I was looking for that

Serinus@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 07:29 collapse

Yeah, I don’t expect it to scale well. Certainly not as well as Rust.

andrew_s@piefed.social on 10 Jan 12:15 collapse

In terms of incoming federation, PieFed sites are dealing with as much activity as any general Lemmy instance. It's not happened yet, but I suppose it's possible that problems will become apparent if the amount of local users gets over a certain size. A limit on the amount of users per instance isn't necessarily a bad thing though (it's cheap, and hopefully easy enough, for someone to spin up another one).

Suoko@feddit.it on 10 Jan 20:29 collapse

What’s going to cause problems? Python, the db, redis or other?

andrew_s@piefed.social on 10 Jan 22:19 collapse

It uses postgres for the DB - I think that and redis are designed to operate at very large scales, so it wouldn't be them.

My guess would be that it's something in the interpreted nature of Python - this seems to be why a familiar dismissal of PieFed is a concern about how it will scale.

That said, this site shows that Python is the most popular language for Fediverse apps (just), the likes of Mastodon are written in another interpreted language (Ruby), and I think there are more big websites running Python (with Django or Flask) than people realise. So I don't know, really, I'm just following other people's lead on this. I don't imagine that any problems would be insurmountable though: an admin could restrict the amount of signups, or if new users mean a few more donations, they could just throw money at the problem (more cycles for one server, or splitting up tasks across multiple servers).

Suoko@feddit.it on 10 Jan 22:34 collapse

If you consider all AI-chat sites are running on python, I guess python scales with no issue at all

kat@orbi.camp on 09 Jan 22:47 collapse

Any way to migrate a self hosted lemmy instance to piefed?

andrew_s@piefed.social on 09 Jan 23:27 next collapse

No, it's not geared up for that. There's a platform called sublinks where the intention is to be initially compatible enough with Lemmy that it can be a drop-in replacement, but they haven't released anything yet.

kat@orbi.camp on 10 Jan 00:30 next collapse

Oh interesting, thanks for sharing!

SorteKanin@feddit.dk on 11 Jan 14:32 collapse

but they haven’t released anything yet

And with their current pace, it seems likely they never will. There’s been no major development on it for months as far as I can see.

Blaze@feddit.org on 11 Jan 14:36 collapse

Yes, same feeling

ocean@lemmy.selfhostcat.com on 10 Jan 02:07 next collapse

just run both!

SorteKanin@feddit.dk on 11 Jan 14:30 collapse

Unfortunately migrating from one fediverse application to another on the same domain is actually basically impossible, due to the way ActivityPub works. It’s very unfortunate.

Blaze@feddit.org on 11 Jan 14:36 collapse

We built this whole place from scratch 18 months ago. We can do it again, especially when Lemmy instances would still be around and help to redirect people to the Piefed instances.

SorteKanin@feddit.dk on 11 Jan 15:06 collapse

Well, in theory sure. But you always lose people during migrations, it’s inevitable. And it’s cumbersome for users. It’s not a nice experience. The fediverse has enough bad UX as it is, I’d prefer if we didn’t pile on more.

If the fediverse actually held true to the promise of easy migrations, then maybe it wouldn’t be a big deal. But unfortunately it’s still not really that easy.

Blaze@feddit.org on 11 Jan 15:13 collapse

I see it happening gradually.

There might be a start with another Piefed instance (e.g. Piefed.zip, managed by Lemmy.zip admins). People who really don’t want to use Lemmy would register on that instance, but would still be able to interact with the communities on Lemmy, the way Mbin and Piefed alreay do now. They start hosting a few communities onn Piefed.zip, locking other on lemmy.zip and redirecting people there.

Then over time some other admins want to give it a try. After a while a few Piefed instances make it to the top 10 most active instances, while the rest is Lemmy.

It doesn’t have to happen overnight. We have time, people are not going anywhere.

lambalicious@lemmy.sdf.org on 09 Jan 21:07 collapse

Have you checked how muh software do you use that is enabled by capitalism?

Skiluros@sh.itjust.works on 09 Jan 21:09 next collapse

Excuse me?

teohhanhui@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 21:21 next collapse

en.wikipedia.org/…/SDF_Public_Access_Unix_System

wow that’s interesting :D

michael@lemmy.chrisco.me on 10 Jan 07:59 collapse

SDF is pretty rad.

shadow@lemmy.sdf.org on 10 Jan 08:39 collapse

Yee

lambalicious@lemmy.sdf.org on 13 Jan 15:16 collapse

Yup! I should make more use of the awesome infra (and the much better payment model than $ocial Media) but alas, I’m like a cat: lazy.

Suoko@feddit.it on 09 Jan 21:59 next collapse

You should ask it on lemmygrad.ml :D

lambalicious@lemmy.sdf.org on 11 Jan 05:04 collapse

I mean, it would be one way to get them stuck chasing their own tail on an endless task…

dustyData@lemmy.world on 11 Jan 14:11 collapse

Linux Foundation survives on Microsoft’s financing. Firefox main source of income is Google’s money. That’s like pointing out that we breathe nitrogen. Yes, it is almost impossible to avoid capitalism because we live immersed in it as a society. But it’s not an reason to stop pointing it out and trying to find more ethical and sustainable alternatives.

sepiroth154@feddit.nl on 09 Jan 19:57 next collapse

The links from the github in case anyone wants to learn more (in order of the list):

web.archive.org/web/…/106835057054633379

raddle.me/…/heads-up-the-tankie-behind-lemmy-ml-g…

raddle.me/…/warning-lemmy-doesn-t-care-about-your…

Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 09 Jan 20:20 collapse

First link is completely unviewable for me on mobile, the entire thread is a chain of posts that say “Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression” with a show more button that doesn’t work, and the original thread is gone. Could you(/someone) paste what it says? I’d try on desktop but our internet has been out since the fires started in LA

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 20:36 next collapse

since the fires started in LA

Sorry to hear

Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 09 Jan 20:45 collapse

Thanks, fortunately I’m not in any evacuation zones, it’s just really bad air quality here

joyjoy@lemm.ee on 09 Jan 20:37 collapse

Entire thread, all from the same user:

Post 1

Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression Human rights mean a lot to me. I joined the Fediverse to make the world a nicer place. My efforts are pathetically small, but hopefully make at least a tiny difference. I used to recommend Lemmy very strongly, thought the people who develop it were nice folks interested in making the world better too. However, recent discussions with the developers has changed my mind completely. I am very suspicious about their motivations now. 1/6

Post 2

Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression Lemmy’s developers say “we are strictly against all forms of oppression (including genocide), and dont allow anything that promotes or supports oppression” and “We definitely are very staunchly against bigotry or persecution of minorities, and are strict about banning that”. This is difficult to fully reconcile with what actually happens on the developers’ own instance, and those they feature. 2/6

Post 3

Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression The problem here isn’t Lemmy’s politics, but their attitude to threads about human rights violations. On the face of it, the developers’ main Lemmy instance has lots of uncontroversial general interest threads, but when you start digging on controversial topics a worrying pattern emerges. The worrying posts are very reminiscent of the way certain churches have handled priest abuse claims: denial. 3/6

Post 4

Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression There’s threads denyng the oppression of Uyghur muslims (this oppression has been well documented by NGOs, for example: …org.uk/…/help-end-repression-uyghurs-china). Other posts deny that North Korea is oppressive. Meanwhile, another suggests celebrating Stalin’s birthday as he was such a great guy. (Incidentally, I have receipts, DM me if you want to see them for yourself.) 4/6

Post 5

Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression You get the picture. These posts were on the main Lemmy instance, as featured on the official Lemmy website. Over the past few days I have tried to engage with Lemmy about these posts in private, as I was sure it must be a misunderstanding. However, Lemmy said that “none of the posts you linked are against our rules”, and refused to even discuss the actual issues because “this format is not conducive to political disagreements”. 5/6

Post 6

Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression I deeply regret ever having publicised Lemmy. I’m really sorry. Don’t use Lemmy. For whatever my opinion is worth any more, I would now recommend that people cancel their donations to Lemmy, stay as far away from Lemmy as possible, and donate to another Fediverse project instead. I was wondering whether to stay quiet, but it seemed better to speak up and say something 6/6

Post 7

Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression p.s. I put the wrong link for Amnesty, the Uyghur report is here: www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa17/4137/2021/ug/

Post 8

Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression p.p.s. Someone has pointed out that lemmy.ml (the official Lemmy instance) resolves to the same IP address as lemmygrad.ml (the instance that contains the most disturbing material). Lemmy.ml also federates with lemmygrad, and the devs advertise lemmygrad on their “join lemmy” site. Do the Lemmy developers themselves run the lemmygrad.ml site? (Its main logo is a tank, incidentally.)

Post 9

Please don’t use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression p.p.p.s. There was an older “reddit for the Fediverse” project called Prismo which had some working instances at one point. Perhaps someone could resurrect it, to provide an alternative to Lemmy? gitlab.com/prismosuite/prismo

Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 09 Jan 20:45 collapse

Thank you!

Fizz@lemmy.nz on 09 Jan 19:59 next collapse

What is the issue with user privacy? These do not sound like valid concerns to me.

teohhanhui@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 20:21 next collapse

Yeah, seems like it’s just how ActivityPub works / how federated networks are.

Recently came across this very interesting writeup: gitlab.com/spritely/ocappub/blob/…/README.org (via social.coop/@cwebber/113639985634239856)

Fizz@lemmy.nz on 09 Jan 22:17 collapse

No that cant be why they do not list lemmy. The other services there federate in the same way.

vrighter@discuss.tchncs.de on 09 Jan 20:33 next collapse

it’s federated. It’s the only way it can work. Everything still on that ist must suffer from the same thing. Federation means handing stuff to someone else. Once that’s done, it’s out of your hands forever.

sunzu2@thebrainbin.org on 09 Jan 21:17 next collapse

Once that's done, it's out of your hands forever.

Correct but fedi is supposed to be the public forum of the future.

Social media worked the same... you handed your shit posts to faceberg or sundar the creep, do people think when they deleted their "creation" it was removed?

Fizz@lemmy.nz on 09 Jan 22:16 collapse

That cant be the issue because the site is called joinfediverse and everything it lists is federated.

andrew_s@piefed.social on 10 Jan 01:52 collapse

This is all quite old drama, and the issue itself is fixed now, but at one point someone kicked off about how if you uploaded a picture to Lemmy, there was no easy way to delete it (you could delete your post, but the image would still be there at whatever URL was created for it, and it wasn't even that easy for admins to find and remove it) - so I'm guessing that it stems from that.

jagged_circle@feddit.nl on 10 Jan 04:02 collapse

Its older than that, and still ongoing. The devs doubled down on how GDPR (and user data privacy rights in general) do not matter to them

Martineski@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 10 Jan 09:57 next collapse

Wait, what? Can you elaborate?

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 10:16 collapse

See the other comment

teohhanhui@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 10:06 collapse

Source? I did a cursory search for “GDPR” on the GitHub issues and can’t find anything like that.

Anyway, this seems to be their more recent stance:

For the future, any GDPR compliance advice needs to come from a lawyer, not from random non-lawyers interpreting what they think is correct.

github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/4540#issuecommen…

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 10:15 next collapse

That’s pretty much it

jagged_circle@feddit.nl on 10 Jan 15:17 collapse

I dont know what you mean. If you search for GDPR (including closed tickets) in both the Lemmy and lemmy-ui repos, you’ll see lots of bugs that make running Lemmy illegal for instance admins.

Here’s one particularly egregious example

github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/2384#issuecom…

teohhanhui@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 15:28 collapse

Uhh… The other dev. Yeah, he’s obviously wrong.

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 15:31 collapse

He admitted it at the end of the ticket

Unfortunately there was some miscommunication in this issue and we failed to get to the root cause. In fact the Lemmy backend has an option to delete all content when an account is deleted. This used to be the default behaviour but was changed in 0.19 so you need to set a parameter delete_content. We failed to add a checkbox for this parameter to lemmy-ui.

However the checkbox is added now in #2385 and will be included in the next Lemmy release. Other frontends and clients may also need to adjust the delete_account api call.

realcaseyrollins@thelemmy.club on 09 Jan 20:09 next collapse

I hate it when people try to gatekeep like this. I don’t need to be handheld. If there’s a Fediverse alternative to something and it mostly works, it should be on the website. Anything less is not useful at best.

Edit: I say this as someone who has historically criticized the behavior of the devs as well as multiple Lemmy communities BTW.

haverholm@kbin.earth on 09 Jan 21:00 next collapse

Well, since you've vocally criticised the developers and they haven't bothered changing their ways, wouldn't you agree they deserve to be gatekept?

On the other hand, it's not for you to decide the criteria for what is included on jointhefediverse's curated list. I personally think it is a perfectly reasonable judgement call they've made.

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 21:05 next collapse

It’s kind of a tradeoff. As much as I like Mbin, it’s not at feature parity with Lemmy yet, having only one mobile app is probably a deal breaker to a lot of users.

sunzu2@thebrainbin.org on 09 Jan 21:19 collapse

People keep saying mbin is not good enough but I bang out hellva work on it.

What does it actually miss for this criticism to be valid?

kat@orbi.camp on 09 Jan 22:50 next collapse

Posts not being marked as read and lack of app support.

OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml on 09 Jan 23:50 collapse

I think it might help if you advertise it more too. I haven’t heard of mbin in months and partially assumed it stopped existing

realcaseyrollins@thelemmy.club on 09 Jan 21:06 next collapse

No, I don’t. If it’s about instances I’d understand it a bit more, even though I wouldn’t entirely agree with that either (I’m a free speech stan), but this is a page listing Fediverse alternative software. The software is fine and relatively untainted from the intentions of the Lemmy devs from what I can tell (although that was not originally the case). They deserved to be criticized, but not censored from Fediverse articles listing alternatives to big tech platforms.

haverholm@kbin.earth on 09 Jan 21:13 next collapse

It's not "censorship" when somebody decides to omit a software from a curated list over the developers' horrible takes. See also Soapbox.

Edited to add: Free speech does not obligate anybody to boost or acknowledge subjects that they disagree with.

realcaseyrollins@thelemmy.club on 09 Jan 21:25 next collapse

Generally fair point. My issue though is that most people will just go to this website and won’t consider other lists or websites, viewing this as the definitive list of Fediverse alternatives. Someone not putting someone’s software on their website isn’t technically censorship, true (this is the other coin of free speech), it does effectively censor Lemmy from the general conversation about Fediverse alternatives.

kat@orbi.camp on 09 Jan 22:53 next collapse

Lemmy is bigger by a LOT (LIKE A LOT) than mbin and piefed. So don’t see how Lemmy is losing the strong grip it already has on this type of fediverse. Heck, google reddit alternatives and Lemmy is also king.

This change on that site was in 2023. It’s 2025. So it has not impacted Lemmy’s user base.

realcaseyrollins@thelemmy.club on 09 Jan 23:39 collapse

Another good point 👍🏾

haverholm@kbin.earth on 10 Jan 06:48 collapse

Do most people go to jointhefediverse, though? Honest question, I don't know the site's traffic stats vs fediverse.to or fediverse.party (which both show up way above jointhefediverse in my duckduckgo search). It's not like an authoritative index or search engine blackballed Lemmy, it is literally about a single grassroots site.

realcaseyrollins@thelemmy.club on 10 Jan 13:23 collapse

It’s the first one I always see whenever I look up lists of Fediverse alternatives and I always end up on the site. I use fedidb.org but I don’t use it to find Fediverse software.

Ulrich@feddit.org on 10 Jan 05:41 next collapse

Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other information. This may be done on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or “inconvenient”. Censorship can be conducted by governments and private institutions. When an individual such as an author or other creator engages in censorship of their own works or speech, it is referred to as self-censorship. General censorship occurs in a variety of different media, including speech, books, music, films, and other arts, the press, radio, television, and the Internet for a variety of claimed reasons including national security, to control obscenity, pornography, and hate speech, to protect children or other vulnerable groups, to promote or restrict political or religious views, and to prevent slander and libel.

  • Wikipedia

They are suppressing information about the fediverse based on political views. They had it up and then they took it down. Please explain how this is not censorship. I don’t know where people get the idea that censorship is an inherently negative thing.

haverholm@kbin.earth on 10 Jan 06:43 next collapse

In the encyclopedic sense, you're right. In this context that I replied to, however, censorship had a negative connotation, and my response spoke to that rather than the formal meaning.

I don't know where people get the idea that censorship is an inherently negative thing.

Right, and I do note that you talk about jointhefediverse "suppressing" Lemmy — another negative connotation.

I'll maintain that, no, they are just leaving it out. Again, that is the privilege of a list curator. Nobody else have a say in what and why is included on the site. Choosing what to publish, and the omissions that entails, are also protected by free speech.

Ulrich@feddit.org on 10 Jan 06:49 collapse

that is the privilege of a list curator.

It can be their privilege and also be censorship. You seem to imply otherwise.

haverholm@kbin.earth on 10 Jan 13:36 collapse

Do I? You seem to enjoy pedantic hairsplitting, but I fail to see where you're going with this.

Ulrich@feddit.org on 10 Jan 15:15 collapse

Yes you do

haverholm@kbin.earth on 10 Jan 20:11 collapse

Good talk. Get lost.

Ulrich@feddit.org on 10 Jan 20:31 collapse

You first.

Carighan@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 07:26 collapse

Yeah you’re right of course, it is censorship. It just happens to be positive. Although, I’d argue that maybe it isn’t based on political or religious views, rather on not wanting to give someone a bad impression of the fediverse and make them leave again? As in, self-serving interests?

Ulrich@feddit.org on 10 Jan 07:41 collapse

I’d argue that maybe it isn’t based on political or religious views

The main argument I see against Lemmy devs is that they’re “tankies”, which is most certainly political. And I agree. Except that there’s nothing in the software itself that is political. Only the devs, and many of the .ml communities and users.

archomrade@midwest.social on 10 Jan 07:45 collapse

over the developers’ horrible takes

Is that really what all this protest is over? Someone’s ‘horrible takes’?

haverholm@kbin.earth on 10 Jan 13:26 collapse

Well, horrible genocide apology takes, TBF. I didn't mean to downplay the gravity of the points they bring up in the archived mastodon thread.

archomrade@midwest.social on 10 Jan 16:05 collapse

Yea, but that kinda nails the pettyness of it, doesn’t it? They don’t even gain anything by having people adopt their software, nor do they suffer a loss by a boycott - and it’s all because they have some questionable (to put it charitably) opinions about an entirely unrelated political issue.

The thing that gets me is that launching this diatribe over the developer’s political opinions on an open sourced project that’s built specifically so that no one group or person has control over the platform - that you have complete control over the instances you federate with - ends up looking an awful lot like protesting public libraries over providing access to ‘woke’ books.

Skiluros@sh.itjust.works on 09 Jan 21:16 collapse

How is this censorship though?

You can always start joinfediversefreespeechstan.io or whatever. The code is even available, no?

I could never understand american-style preference for “free speech” themed theatrics.

realcaseyrollins@thelemmy.club on 09 Jan 21:27 collapse

Because as the leading “Fediverse alternative” website, it essentially tells the viewer that Lemmy doesn’t exist, which I think does a disservice to prospective Fediverse users.

But yes good point, anyone can make an alternative website, I think right wing people made like a fuckgab.com site back in the day to recommend Gab alternatives on the Fediverse.

Skiluros@sh.itjust.works on 09 Jan 21:37 collapse

Where does it say “Lemmy doesn’t exist”? The admins of the site are well within their right to curate what service they include. I say this as someone who uses Lemmy a lot and really wants there to be a non-corporate, competition-focused alternative (instances, UIs) to reddit specifically and oligarch run social networks in general.

I don’t understand how “censorship” plays into this (beyond shallow polemical grandstanding). Where is the censorship?

SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today on 10 Jan 12:38 collapse

Well, since you’ve vocally criticised the developers and they haven’t bothered changing their ways, wouldn’t you agree they deserve to be gatekept?

No. In fact, I strongly dislike that whole attitude of ‘do what I want or else I will cancel you’. I am not the arbiter of what is ultimately right and wrong and neither are you and neither is parent commenter.

I believe people have the right to make their own choice. And since Lemmy has significant user base and significant active discussion and thousands of communities, I think the users have the right to make that choice for themselves. Make them aware of the situation, make them aware of the potential downsides, make them aware that lemmy.ml is run by tankie assholes, maybe recommend some better instances, and let them choose for themselves.

That is why I like Lemmy and the fediverse as a concept. I can choose the instance that has the policies that I want. Among those policies is which other instances to defiederate from.

haverholm@kbin.earth on 10 Jan 13:43 collapse

I believe people have a right to make their own choice.

And yet you argue against the jointhefediverse curator's choice not to list whatever goes against their convictions?

As mentioned in another reply, Soapbox is an example of a Fediverse server software that often goes unmentioned because the developer is a giant MAGA hat. As the meme goes, they're the same picture.

SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today on 10 Jan 14:04 collapse

Of course it’s their choice. But I also think some people in some situations should recognize a broader responsibility. Because we get into a larger question of, what happens when the public square is privately owned?

With a website like joinfediverse, that domain becomes a primary resource for people looking to get into decentralized platforms. By not including something, the maintainer is not just making the choice for himself but for every new user who visits the site. That responsibility should be taken seriously and the choice not just made based on personal opinion.

Think of it this way, imagine I made a site called whoshouldIvotefor.com and it would ask you questions and then recommend a political candidate. Sounds like a good idea, right? Now what if I make it so the site always recommends a Republican candidate, and only justifies why the answers you gave to the questions indicate that vote? I’m certainly allowed to do that. Free speech and all. But it could be argued that I also have a responsibility to the voters who come to my site who don’t realize it is biased, in that I am pushing my personal opinions on them and causing them to make a decision that they wouldn’t have made if they had all the facts.

(Disclaimer- I’m not a Republican, I consider myself liberal-libertarian. I’m using that as an example.)

I am just saying that a site which sets itself up as an authoritative on ramp to the fediverse should try to be unbiased and not based on personal opinions of its editor.

SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today on 10 Jan 12:33 next collapse

I agree 100% with this. The developers or the operators of lemmy.ml may be assholes, but the beauty of decentralization is I can simply not use their instance. I do not. Thus, while a warning label is necessary, I think more good is done by making people aware of the alternative to Reddit than by sweeping the whole thing under the rug.

As for user privacy, I’m not sure Lemmy is any worse than any other Fediverse app. There were a couple of bad things like being unable to delete a hosted image, but that has been fixed. Once again, warning label, not rug sweep.

timestatic@feddit.org on 11 Jan 00:56 collapse

I mean the person maintaining this site just chose to not recommend it themself based on valid concerns. Nothing is stopping you from looking into lemmy and using it anyways.

Bezier@suppo.fi on 09 Jan 20:11 next collapse

To me the first one is an instance problem (ml, hexbear?), and not a lemmy problem. It has looked like they’ve been trying to separate the two as much as possible.

cm0002@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 20:24 next collapse

Unfortunately, .ml is a default instance and the main devs instance, what happens there reflects on all of us

avidamoeba@lemmy.ca on 09 Jan 20:36 next collapse

Default where?

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 20:43 collapse

join-lemmy.org

avidamoeba@lemmy.ca on 09 Jan 20:56 collapse

I don’t see it on that page. Going to “See all servers” lists “lemmy.ml” at a random position in the list. Looking at “Join a server” and using “Generic” or “All topics” also lists it in a random position. Am I missing something?

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 21:11 collapse

If you use “Most active”, it will shows up after lemm.ee and the other big instances. So not default, but would still be recommended to new joiners

avidamoeba@lemmy.ca on 09 Jan 22:22 collapse

Well to me that doesn’t fit the “it’s default” description.

While looking at that, I couldn’t see lemmy.world on that page. I found that join-lemmy.org now excludes instances with >30% user share in order to dampen centralisation. Which makes sense I guess.

joyjoy@lemm.ee on 09 Jan 20:46 next collapse

To me, the only solution to this is to do a hard fork. Take the code (It’s AGPL), rename it if Lemmy is trademarked, and encourage admins to use it and contributors to target it. Maybe start a non-profit or LLC while we’re at it.

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 20:55 next collapse

Good luck finding Rust devs interested in link aggregators. That fork would probably fall behind, and people would switch back to Lemmy as they keep delivering features.

Mbin and Piefed use more popular languages and haven’t caught up yet

michael@lemmy.chrisco.me on 10 Jan 08:03 collapse

Instead of trying to fork, maybe we try and go the Gotosocial way and make a MVP smol version. Something that can house 10 or so users. People can spin up whatever they want.

Honestly what I wouldnt give for a reddit theme on mastodon that uses their hashtags as the communities themselves. That would be cool in my opinion.

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 20:57 next collapse

To be honest, at this point forking the jointhefediverse website would probably be easier

FuzzyWeevil@lemmynsfw.com on 10 Jan 15:37 collapse

This seems like the better idea and way easier lol.

jagged_circle@feddit.nl on 10 Jan 03:57 collapse

Sublinks is doing a rewrite

comfy@lemmy.ml on 10 Jan 00:32 collapse

It was made very clear from the start that .ml was not meant to be a ‘default instance’.

Rhoeri@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 02:16 collapse

Too bad for all of us that it is though.

comfy@lemmy.ml on 10 Jan 03:00 next collapse

How was it default? I’ve been here for years and in all that time, it was never default. It was one of the most popular, and the most widely shared, but that’s not the same at all.

thoro@lemmy.ml on 10 Jan 18:17 next collapse

If anything is too bad, it’s .world being so prominent.

Half this comm’s activity is spreading FUD about the platform and being a gathering place for all the people developing their alternatives to huddle and advertise those.

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 23:13 collapse

But lemmy.ml isn’t the most active, nor does it host the most active communities

Rhoeri@lemmy.world on 11 Jan 00:53 collapse

I didn’t say it was the most active. I said it was the default. Which has been proven already by many others here.

Blaze@feddit.org on 11 Jan 10:06 collapse

Where? the comments dismiss that statement, saying that it’s just an instance among others

lemmy.ca/comment/13804330

If there is anything as a default instance, it’s Lemmy.world

haverholm@kbin.earth on 09 Jan 21:07 collapse

But the Lemmy project and specific instances are not so easily separated. From the archived mastodon thread:

lemmy.ml (the official Lemmy instance) resolves to the same IP address as lemmygrad.ml (the instance that contains the most disturbing material).

Lemmy.ml also federates with lemmygrad, and the devs advertise lemmygrad on their "join lemmy" site.

Do the Lemmy developers themselves run the lemmygrad.ml site? (Its main logo is a tank, incidentally.)

So yeah, newcomers are presented with a join-lemmy site that promotes Lemmygrad and Lemmy ML, both of which appear to be run by the Lemmy devs.

That pretty much makes it a Lemmy problem.

archomrade@midwest.social on 10 Jan 07:50 collapse

On what basis can anyone declare one instance to be the ‘main’ one? I’ve seen a number of people claim the same thing about .world, but none of them need to be considered the ‘main’ ones. The entire motivation for the creation of the fediverse is to allow segmentation… I think people simply want to make it an issue because without these little cross-community spats things get boring.

haverholm@kbin.earth on 10 Jan 13:33 collapse

I agree that ideally the concept of "main instances" is beside the point in a federated network. Let's call them "flagship" or "onboarding instances" then, the initial ones set up by developers as proof of concept that usually get the most traction by way of being open for registrations the longest.

I think it's disingenuous to classify the decision to omit Lemmy from a list of fediverse software as "a spat", though. Bringing it up again 1½ years later probably fits the bill better.

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 15:26 collapse

that usually get the most traction by way of being open for registrations the longest.

But lemmy.ml isn’t the most active, nor does it host the most active communities

Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 21:45 next collapse

Wait wait…what’s that last one?

comfy@lemmy.ml on 10 Jan 00:44 next collapse

The linked post given on the second point is a bit flimsy. It’s basically saying that if you use evidence published by a person with shitty views, you must have them too. To me, that’s absurd as claiming that referencing FBI statistics makes someone a federal agent.

SolarMonkey@slrpnk.net on 10 Jan 02:46 next collapse

These concerns, and more, are why just today, during a conversation with some friends looking to get off traditional social media, I advised them to join pixelfed, peer tube, mastodon, and loops, but suggested they strictly avoid Lemmy.

The communities aren’t right for anyone who isn’t seeking something exactly like Lemmy or leftie-Reddit-lite. I don’t even really like it here all that much anymore. Not the content; the interactions… across all my accounts… even joining “nicer” spaces is not a particularly nice or pleasant experience, plus the more interested is a woman, and Lemmy is a horrible sausagefest echo chamber not at all suited to a normal average woman person who isn’t techie. I’m techie, so I’m used to the vibe, but for your average cis-woman, Lemmy is a very very bad fit.

Bring on the downvotes if you like (the echo-chamber anti-voice sentiment is part of why people shouldn’t be recommended this platform, after all) but these are legit concerns for people who may want to join, and those of us already here can and do steer people elsewhere as a result.

GrammarPolice@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 04:21 next collapse

Same honestly. I never discussed politics on Reddit, but it’s all the content that’s here. Partly why I don’t recommend it to anyone i know who uses Reddit. Most content just isn’t normie-friendly here.

SolarMonkey@slrpnk.net on 10 Jan 04:27 collapse

It’s so depressing and aggressive, honestly. I can’t do that to my friends who don’t do that already.

FuzzyWeevil@lemmynsfw.com on 10 Jan 15:33 collapse

Have you been on Reddit lately? It’s insanely depressing and aggressive, too. Even more so in my opinion. I used to be reddit addicted but it’s so bot infested, mean-spirited, and kind of vapid and shallow that I get bored after the first page or two. Lemmy still has a long way to go but I’ve been having more fun and interesting conversations on here.

archomrade@midwest.social on 10 Jan 07:37 next collapse

Lemmy is a horrible sausagefest echo chamber not at all suited to a normal average woman person who isn’t techie.

Far be it from me to point out this is exactly how reddit started.

The foundational promise of lemmy and the fediverse writ large is freedom from proprietary software and closed-protocols; the kind of people who are going to be interested in seeking out those types of alternatives are going to gravitate toward techy men.

It takes time for new social media sites to fan outward from their initial adopters, that’s just how it goes.

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 09:24 collapse

Fair points, to be honest. We can all do better.

jagged_circle@feddit.nl on 10 Jan 03:55 next collapse

This is why I’m looking forward to Sublinks launching.

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 09:20 collapse

Piefed is more promosing. Sublinks has been on hold for a while now

[deleted] on 10 Jan 05:18 next collapse

.

Serinus@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 07:28 next collapse

No, they’re not.

how the developers handle certain types of content

Doesn’t matter if you stay away from .ml.

the behavior of its creator

Kind of valid, but open source and open license negates a lot of that.

how the sotware itself handles users’ privacy.

You think anything else on the Fediverse is better? When you post something publicly, it’s public. Doesn’t really matter what the software does. If you don’t have End to End encryption, it’s not private.

petrol_sniff_king@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 10 Jan 22:41 collapse

Doesn’t matter if you stay away from .ml.

And they are. They have delisted Lemmy as a recommendation.

Kind of valid, but open source and open license negates a lot of that.

It’s really bad PR. I don’t recommend Lemmy to people because of this shit.

You think anything else on the Fediverse is better?

If their servers delete content you want deleted, yes.

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 23:11 collapse

If their servers delete content you want deleted, yes.

It’s the case for Lemmy

Unfortunately there was some miscommunication in this issue and we failed to get to the root cause. In fact the Lemmy backend has an option to delete all content when an account is deleted. This used to be the default behaviour but was changed in 0.19 so you need to set a parameter delete_content. We failed to add a checkbox for this parameter to lemmy-ui.

However the checkbox is added now in #2385 and will be included in the next Lemmy release. Other frontends and clients may also need to adjust the delete_account api call.

github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/2384#issuecom…

petrol_sniff_king@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 10 Jan 23:28 collapse

Gotcha.

MITM0@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 16:41 collapse

No they’re not, go back to school & relearn what FediVerse is

NineMileTower@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 19:44 next collapse

So, I should quit Lemmy now too?

teohhanhui@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 19:52 next collapse

So far I haven’t found a better alternative. Lemmy communities are already much smaller than their Reddit counterparts.

Personally, I don’t plan to venture into even more remote locations. It defeats the community part of it…

NineMileTower@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 19:56 next collapse

You can access the same communities on kbin. Does that change anything though?

teohhanhui@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 20:04 collapse

kbin is abandonware: hachyderm.io/@maegul/112929613414300764

Found a related post: lemmy.world/post/22523493

RmDebArc_5@sh.itjust.works on 09 Jan 20:13 next collapse

Then how about mbin?

teohhanhui@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 20:29 collapse

If I could use a single identity across the whole Fediverse, I would. Unfortunately, that’s not a reality yet.

So we’re forced to choose instances (i.e. “home servers”). And for me, that means I’d only choose to stick with the largest ones, as they have the highest chances of providing me with a sort of permanence.

I don’t see any big mbin instances:

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 20:40 next collapse

fedia.io has 413 monthly active users, how big do you need the instance to be, especially when all the content is available there too?

teohhanhui@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 20:53 next collapse

Fair point, but at this time, I’m on mastodon.social and lemmy.world, i.e. some of the largest instances. I simply don’t have much motivation to migrate.

kat@orbi.camp on 09 Jan 23:00 collapse

Didn’t they close registration tho? Lol

deus@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 20:45 next collapse

It’s a shame kbin.social is no more. I guess Fedia.io is as big as it gets now.

osaerisxero@kbin.melroy.org on 09 Jan 20:46 next collapse

https://fedia.io is the 'big' mbin server, but they appear to have closed registrations at some point

unknown1234_5@kbin.earth on 09 Jan 20:53 next collapse

you are aware that you aren't restricted to things on your instance right? what your talking about is literally what the fediverse is. also who cares how big an instance is?

teohhanhui@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 21:08 collapse

you are aware that you aren’t restricted to things on your instance right?

I’m not new to the Fediverse, so yes, I’m aware of that, and also of the drama that comes with defederation (lmao)

also who cares how big an instance is?

I’d only choose to stick with the largest ones, as they have the highest chances of providing me with a sort of permanence.

Or in other words, they’re much less likely to just shut down without notice.

haverholm@kbin.earth on 09 Jan 20:55 next collapse

kbin.earth and other kbin instances have migrated to mbin. Only the domain names remain the same.

UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml on 10 Jan 04:43 collapse

<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/e2e1fb7d-6920-4575-b5f6-e8df7fb1dc75.jpeg">

You can select “All” instead of “Local” and you will see all instances that are federated with yours. (Not the ones defederated).

I wish we could do the same in communities that have the same name. “All” gaming and you could see every instances gaming community. Or select “Local” to see your instance only.

teohhanhui@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 09:54 collapse

I actually use “Subscribed” because I don’t want to see posts from random communities. Haha…

Bezier@suppo.fi on 09 Jan 20:15 next collapse

But mbin?

NineMileTower@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 20:17 collapse

That answers that.

inlandempire@jlai.lu on 09 Jan 20:01 collapse

Piefed looks interesting!

mesamunefire@piefed.social on 09 Jan 20:06 collapse

It certainly is! The only "bad" part is the lack of a mobile client. And it kinda looks funky on mobile.

foggenbooty@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 21:56 collapse

The Thunder client is a godsend for Lemmy, I’m so happy with the work that developer has done. I feel like I’m still back on Reddit using Relay in the compact view.

For any of these alternatives to succeed mobile apps have to exist, and I doubt all the devs that popped up to make Lemmy apps want to retool yet again for a different platform.

andrew_s@piefed.social on 09 Jan 22:48 next collapse

It's not so much that we expect the developers of Lemmy apps to retool. The hope is that, if we can provide a sensible, well-documented API, then it will appeal to front-end developers looking for a project. Also, if there are any devs of Lemmy mobile apps who are unhappy with Lemmy's API for any reason, then getting involved with PieFed's whilst it's still in development, offers them a chance to shape one to their desires.

Speaking of Thunder though - I've been able to compile it for desktop, and get it working with PieFed's API in the state it's in now. I've no experience with Flutter / Dart or front-end development, so it suggests that - for open source Lemmy apps, at least - it doesn't need to be the original author who ports it, and that the actual details a particular API are only a relatively small part of creating a good mobile app.

mesamunefire@piefed.social on 10 Jan 01:20 collapse

I'm guessing you had to make some changes? I get a url error when putting in piefed.social but the logo appears.

andrew_s@piefed.social on 10 Jan 01:40 collapse

Oh yeah, sorry. I didn't mention that the API isn't available on production sites like piefed.social. I've been messing around with a build of Thunder on my dev instance, and - among other things - the app doesn't uses the same V3 endpoint that Lemmy does, so it'd always need to be a different version than the one that's currently available for Lemmy.

kat@orbi.camp on 09 Jan 22:59 collapse

Same feeling with Sync for lemmy. Basically the same experience of reddit I’ve been using for years.

Sunshine@lemmy.ca on 09 Jan 20:01 next collapse

You’re good, just block Lemmy.ml.

The code is open source. Everyone can read it.

NineMileTower@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 20:18 collapse

how do you block an entire instance?

Sunshine@lemmy.ca on 09 Jan 20:24 next collapse

Searching for the instance and then tapping on the element gives you the menu that provides the option to block on the third party app Mlem.

<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ca/pictrs/image/eb343249-b3ee-4b7d-ba01-3b494692cfc5.png">

NineMileTower@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 20:27 collapse

I use Voyager, but this helped me find it in the filter settings. Thank you!

UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml on 10 Jan 04:46 collapse
Rhoeri@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 02:23 collapse

Not at all, just filter out .ml. Problem fixed!

UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml on 10 Jan 04:23 collapse

Sounds simple right? But unfortunately several users seem to have difficulty in blocking .ml and continue to complain about us.

Don’t worry yall, I got your backs.


Welcome to a tutorial on how to block .ml on your personal account.

In the top right corner of the top of the page, there are 3 horizontal white bars. Click it.

This will open up a drop down menu. At the bottom of that menu, you will see your username. Click it.

This will open another drop down menu with 3 options. Click “Settings”.

At the top of your screen you will see 2 tabs. Click the one that says “Blocks”.

Here you will see “Block user” “Block community” and “Block instance”. Click the down arrow below “Block instance”.

This will open up a search bar. Type “lemmy.ml” and click it after it shows up.

That’s it! You’ve blocked .ml and will never see content from the instance. Now you don’t need to make a feud post every day complaining about .ml and other instances you disapprove of. Think of all the time you will save!

But wait, we aren’t done yet in this menu. Click the down arrow under “Block user”. Now type “UltraGiGaGigantic” Make sure you select my .ml account as the other ones I no longer use. Thanks, appreciate it.

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 09:36 collapse

That does not completely block an instance. Users from that instance would still show up in the comments.

Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me on 09 Jan 19:57 next collapse

That feels like complaints about lemmy.ml specifically more than Lemmy as a software. There’s a few instances that defederate lemmy.ml out there.

Azzu@lemm.ee on 10 Jan 00:52 next collapse

They can do whatever shit they want with their instance and believe whatever they want. The software they make provably doesn’t have any more biases than any other software. As long as that’s the case, I’m fine.

SleafordMod@feddit.uk on 10 Jan 10:12 collapse

Maybe there’s something in the codebase that sends all our data to North Korea… who knows.

EllaSpiggins@lemm.ee on 10 Jan 13:23 next collapse

We do, because it’s open source

SleafordMod@feddit.uk on 10 Jan 15:36 collapse

Have you read all the code though? Everyone assumes that somebody else will read every single file of the source code, and understand it all. Malicious code can be obfuscated.

EllaSpiggins@lemm.ee on 11 Jan 13:22 collapse

Personally, no. However the technical lead of our instance has, and in fact wrote and debugged some of it.

SleafordMod@feddit.uk on 11 Jan 13:52 collapse

Even a technical lead of an instance may not have read every single line of code because codebases these days are pretty large. Typically you might look at the code you’re working on, but not necessarily the entire codebase.

Hopefully Lemmy doesn’t have anything malicious in it, but it’s possible to sneak malware into open source projects. This sort of thing happened to XZ Utils last year.

Blaze@feddit.org on 11 Jan 14:37 collapse

If you are worried about the Lemmy codebase, there is piefed.social

It’s still another codebase you need to trust, but in this case the devs don’t have specific political views

SleafordMod@feddit.uk on 11 Jan 15:37 collapse

Yeah I’ve heard of that, maybe I should look at it more. Hopefully the Lemmy codebase is fine though. I’m just saying it’s possible, even if perhaps unlikely, that something could be lurking in the code which nobody has discovered yet. The XZ Utils backdoor was well-hidden and happened to be discovered, but maybe malicious code isn’t always discovered.

lambalicious@lemmy.sdf.org on 11 Jan 05:03 collapse

Next time, do something like suggesting that vaccines don’t work, to entertain me.

SleafordMod@feddit.uk on 11 Jan 09:22 collapse

I’m not raising a conspiracy theory point, I’m raising what is surely a valid point: everybody assumes that someone else will read all of the source code and understand it all.

Codebases are large, and malicious code can be obfuscated. Hopefully Lemmy’s code is fine, but I definitely don’t know for certain that it’s completely clean. I just hope that it is.

Rhoeri@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 02:07 next collapse

Yeah, but it’s guilt by association. Think about how X is now. Its owner is an asshole, and that hurts the platform regardless of how many cool people use it.

Hoimo@ani.social on 10 Jan 06:58 collapse

X is under total control of that person. As long as the lemmy source adheres to fediverse principles, this developer can believe whatever they want and run their instance however they want, and no one else has to care. If his beliefs starts affecting the lemmy source, it’s always an option to fork.

If you exclude a branch of the fediverse because of one bad instance, you’re missing the point of the fediverse.

Rhoeri@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 07:20 collapse

And you’re missing the point of my point.

If people who don’t already know how lemmy is run, are curious and read that shit and think the owner/operator of lemmy is a huge douchebag tankie that deletes/bans everything he doesn’t like… it bodes poorly for new people coming to lemmy.

So therefore- the rest of us are guilty as a result of association with the aforementioned douchebag.

Serinus@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 07:32 next collapse

How much effort do you think Meta, Twitter, and Reddit put into getting open social media people to fight against themselves?

InFerNo@lemmy.ml on 10 Jan 20:36 collapse

Very little

cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 10 Jan 13:41 collapse

it’s complaints about the developer (which are valid) who also runs lemmy.ml.

massive_bereavement@fedia.io on 09 Jan 20:02 next collapse

But there's mbin which is clearly the SUPERIOR alternative.

osaerisxero@kbin.melroy.org on 09 Jan 20:41 next collapse

I'm a big mbin stan, but it's clearly the inferior software platform right now.

massive_bereavement@fedia.io on 09 Jan 21:05 collapse

I was mostly joking, I like that there are multiple options amd we can still interact with each other.

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 21:05 collapse

Definitely

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 20:41 collapse

Having only one mobile app is already a deal breaker for some users

massive_bereavement@fedia.io on 09 Jan 21:04 collapse

Is that Interstellar, or another one?

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 21:05 collapse

I was thinking about Interstellar indeed, is there another one?

osaerisxero@kbin.melroy.org on 09 Jan 21:27 collapse

I would sort of consider web as the other one, since kbin (and now mbin) were designed to play nice with mobile browsers, I use mbin on my phone via PWA and I'm pretty happy with it, aside from mbin UI issues which I keep kicking around the idea of fixing but have been lazy about it.

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 21:31 collapse

I see, I usually use PWA myself, but I’ve heard quite a few people saying that apps were a deal breaker for them

cm0002@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 20:22 next collapse

It’s almost certainly because of the tankie factory that is .ml and the fact that it’s admins are all hard core tankies (including the main dev! And ofc the whole infamous Nutomic transphobe incident)

Coupled with the fact that a few of the biggest communities are on .ml does not bode well.

That’s why I keep calling for a general boycott against posting content or comments on .ml communities.

.ml doesn’t want growth, they want a tankie echo chamber, if anybody wants to actually see Lemmy grow at a healthy pace it starts with shuning the hostile tankies and their instances.

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 20:38 next collapse

Coupled with the fact that a few of the biggest communities are on .ml does not bode well.

lemmyverse.net/communities?order=active_month

  • 0 community in the top 10
  • 2 communities in the top 20

That’s why I keep calling for a general boycott against posting content or comments on .ml communities.

!linux@programming.dev is a good alternative to !linux@lemmy.ml

cm0002@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 20:53 next collapse

Well I was going by subscriber count, but good to know that it’s not as bleak going by (probably more accurate metric to go by) MAUs, but still memes@lemmy.ml is #10 in the top 10

For memes either !memes@lemmy.world or !memes@sopuli.xyz is a good alternative to memes@lemmy.ml

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 20:58 collapse

Isn’t number 10 !politics@lemmy.world ?

Also, by the active numbers metrics, those other memes communities definitely took over the ml one

cm0002@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 22:16 collapse

Oh it is, ig I miscounted lol

Skiluros@sh.itjust.works on 09 Jan 21:26 collapse

Still many top tech communities (in their niche) are on ML. Open source, Linux, Privacy, Raspberry Pi, Firefox come to mind.

Several hexbear communities are also in the top 50.

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 21:38 collapse

I mentioned l !linux@programming.dev already

The alternatives are there, most of the people just don’t seem to care enough to leave the .ml ones

Several hexbear communities are also in the top 50.

Are they? I see 2.6k monthly active users for !chapotraphouse@hexbear.net, which is definitely lower than top 50, seems more like 80 or 90, or even past 100 (currently on my phone, can’t really count accurately, and Lemmyverse doesn’t have row numbers)

Skiluros@sh.itjust.works on 09 Jan 21:46 collapse

I do use all the ML alternatives, but engagement is notably lower. I almost wish LW would just bite the bullet and defederate from ML.

Yeah, maybe more like top 100 for hexbear. I am on mobile too.

cm0002@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 22:14 next collapse

I almost wish LW would just bite the bullet and defederate from ML.

I really don’t understand why they won’t, they did it with lemmygrad and hexbear but with .ml they wanna take this kid glove approach. The best theory I got is they don’t want to because of the more active communities on there ig

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 09:26 collapse

Having access to the devs via !lemmy@lemmy.ml and !lemmy_support@lemmy.ml is probably why

Rhoeri@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 02:21 next collapse

Everyone should defederate from that toxic shithole. It serves no purpose that isn’t duplicated elsewhere only without the heavy-handed admin/mod team.

UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml on 10 Jan 03:55 next collapse

I almost wish LW would just bite the bullet and defederate from ML.

I get the feeling that even if you got what you wanted, you would still complain about .ml

Right now, you could block .ml personally. Have you blocked .ml?

Skiluros@sh.itjust.works on 10 Jan 06:44 next collapse

I have not, no. There are still some technology communities that are only present on ML. Outside of those, I do not interact with ML.

And what’s with your prima donna attitude? What exactly is the problem with calling out an instance run by genocide white-washing tankie scum?

FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 10 Jan 20:52 collapse

Blocking ML doesn’t block the users

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 09:27 collapse

Yes, I guess for tech people the political stances are irrelevant, they just want the most active communities

Having access to the devs via !lemmy@lemmy.ml and !lemmy_support@lemmy.ml is probably why

Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 21:42 next collapse

That’s why I keep calling for a general boycott against posting content or comments on .ml communities.

I mean…I joined that boycott months ago, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen you before this moment.

cm0002@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 22:07 collapse

Bro. I just posted a meme about it 3 days ago

And I post from time to time about it, enough that some of the more prominent .ml users have started to take notice lmao

I’ve also been consistently for weeks now cross-posting a ton of fresh (non-tankie anyways) content to the relevant non-.ml communities, it’s like the bulk of my posts rn lol

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 09:29 collapse

That’s nice, thanks for your posts

occultist8128@infosec.pub on 09 Jan 22:30 next collapse

sorry, but what does tankie mean?

walden@sub.wetshaving.social on 09 Jan 22:43 next collapse

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie

occultist8128@infosec.pub on 09 Jan 23:39 next collapse

oh i thought tankie means different here

FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 10 Jan 20:55 collapse

The Interceptjournalist Roane Carey identified the “key element in the tankie mindset [as] the simple-minded assumption that only the United States can be imperialist, and thus any country that opposes the U.S. must be supported.”

I think that’s a well done description.

kat@orbi.camp on 09 Jan 22:43 next collapse

Same, no idea… Tank wearing people? Lol

cm0002@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 22:46 collapse

Generally, those who praise authoritarian regimes who mask, or attempt to, themselves in the cloak of communism/socialism e.g. China or Russia and are SUPER anti-West (Parroting views of the China Russian regime)

Which comes with a whole host of shit takes, like Russia being justified in their invasion or even denying Tiennamen Square and definitely denying the China Uyghur genocide

Basically, they’ve gone so far left they’ve circled back into Right-wing authoritarianism

UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml on 10 Jan 03:52 next collapse

Make your own instance and defederate .ml or any of the other instances you hate. Go nuts! Show us how it’s done.

InFerNo@lemmy.ml on 10 Jan 20:44 next collapse

I’ve said it before, but I joined this instance when Reddit closed the api and the only time I see “tankie” stuff is when someone mentions how rampant it is on this instance, but not on the instance itself. I guess I subscribe to non-tankie content (all across the fediverse and not only this instance).

Emperor@feddit.uk on 12 Jan 19:40 collapse

!de_ml@lemmy.blahaj.zone

avidamoeba@lemmy.ca on 09 Jan 20:35 next collapse

Wow that change is from June 2023.

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 20:44 collapse

Yes, that’s quite old, not sure why OP is bringing this up now.

Most of the people here know about the Lemmy devs political stances. Quite a few people are waiting for Piefed and Mbin to catch up. Nothing new to see here.

teohhanhui@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 20:59 next collapse

I don’t know. I just came across it yesterday, and I thought it’d be something interesting to share.

It was explained in the post’s body actually:

Curiously, it does not list Lemmy under the list of Reddit alternatives.

Most of the people here know about the Lemmy devs political stances.

Seeing as I’ve only started using Lemmy less than a month ago, I’ve only just very recently started realizing that.

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 21:04 next collapse

It’s okay, I see your account is quite new, so no worries.

As I said, those issues are known, you can have a look at !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com for posts complaining about power tripping mods, be it lemmy.ml or elsewhere.

The key takeaway is that even with its flaws, Lemmy is the biggest Reddit alternative by far (Discuit has less than 200 weekly active posters, Lemmy has 42000). If there would have been a better alternative people would probably have moved there, but there wasn’t (and still isn’t) any, so here we are

Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 21:59 next collapse

This was like me months ago. A lot of people here take the mentality of “Well I know about it, so it MUST be common knowledge that everybody knows!”

Completely forgetting that there are 8 billion people on the planet, and something like 65k people on lemmy. Statistically speaking, this means basically nobody in the entire planet knows about lemmy, or the issues with lemmy.ml.

So for every NEW user, this is ALWAYS new info. It’s not like facebook where I don’t have an account, but already know zuck’s a massive piece of shit.

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 09:35 collapse

The question is more “how many people on Lemmy know about the ml political stance”

Posts like this (feddit.org/post/3912054) with 205 comments show that most of the people are usually aware.

For new joiners, there is a post on !newtolemmy@lemmy.ca about this.

teohhanhui@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 09:48 collapse

FWIW: I used join-lemmy.org and found lemmy.ml, submitted my registration, but then checked on Wikipedia and it says lemmy.world is the largest instance, so I wanted to cancel my registration for lemmy.ml (there’s no such feature according to the admin). Anyway, that’s how I ended up here on lemmy.world 😆

Did not notice any of the political leanings until just a few days ago, so it’s definitely not obvious unless you look deeper into things.

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 09:56 next collapse

As I said, you’re new here.

I bring up the topic regularly on /r/Redditalternatives: reddit.com/…/post_to_address_the_usual_criticism_…

Every time I mention Lemmy there, I point to discuss.online and sopuli.xyz: reddit.com/comments/1hxduw2/comment/m68fhsc

It is also part of a dedicated post on !newtolemmy@lemmy.ca : lemmy.world/post/21568033

We could probably improve its visibility.

FuzzyWeevil@lemmynsfw.com on 10 Jan 15:54 collapse

You can have multiple accounts on multiple instances. In fact, I recommend it. No need to delete your ml account, just keep it as a backup or curate a different feed on it.

teohhanhui@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 15:56 collapse

I’m way too lazy for that. I don’t even have more than 1 email account. I use the same username everywhere lol…

jagged_circle@feddit.nl on 10 Jan 04:07 collapse

I appreciate you posting it

UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml on 10 Jan 04:07 collapse

Block .ml

Block me

Who cares how others use Lemmy? I don’t. Feel free to make another feud post this week. Stick it to us champ!

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 09:32 collapse

Who cares how others use Lemmy? I don’t.

I do, because I would like Lemmy to reach 100k monthly active users, so that other posters can join communities I keep alive. Lemmy.ml reputation is detrimental to this.

On the other hand, I respect the Lemmy devs as developers, just not as admins.

unknown1234_5@kbin.earth on 09 Jan 20:58 next collapse

to anyone looking for somewhere other than Lemmy I'd like to suggest mbin. I'll admit it's not perfect (especially on mobile, interstellar is decent but it's the only app and has some bugs) but it handles reddit-style content pretty much the same as Lemmy except for the lack of read-marking on posts. as a bonus, it handles microblogs so you can see those without an account on mastodon or something similar.

kat@orbi.camp on 09 Jan 22:46 next collapse

I ran a kbin instance, which kbin forked, and man it was so resource heavy compared to lemmy. Quite expensive to run at scale. Has mbin fork helped with that?

unknown1234_5@kbin.earth on 10 Jan 00:54 collapse

I'm not sure about self-hosting (not feasible for me right now) but as a user it's not bad. I can say I haven't seen anyone complaining about it yet.

jwr1@kbin.earth on 10 Jan 02:44 collapse

What bugs/issues does Interstellar have that you would like to see fixed? I'm Interstellar's developer btw. I tried to get the majority of the know bugs fixed in the last big update. If there's anything specific you're running into, I can try to focus on that.

unknown1234_5@kbin.earth on 10 Jan 05:30 collapse

the main one I'm still having repeatably right now is that sometimes when I go to post something, especially a comment, the button does not seem to work, so I press it again thinking I missed and it gets posted twice.
I also sometimes have an issue where up/downvoting makes a thing pop up saying "null check operator used on null value". it also happened when trying to unfollow a community from an instance I had recently blocked.

jwr1@kbin.earth on 10 Jan 14:06 collapse

  • That was something I specifically tried to fix in the last update (the posting button not appearing to work). After the update, almost all buttons that connect to the api have a loading indicator now. Would you be able to verify you are on the latest version: v0.7.1.
  • I have seen that error before (null check), which I can definitely try to investigate, but I'll likely need more context (such as a post it happens on) to be able to figure out exactly what's causing the issue.
unknown1234_5@kbin.earth on 10 Jan 18:39 collapse

I'm on the latest version. I've only seen the null check thing on stuff from other platforms but as mbin is fairly small thats just what I use, so I doubt it's related.

jwr1@kbin.earth on 10 Jan 19:38 collapse

I'm a bit confused then; there should be a loading indicator that displays once the button is pressed, which prevents you from tapping it multiple times. It should look like this now: <img alt="" src="https://github.com/user-attachments/assets/58fbfde8-ae40-46fa-ba31-ac13326c3f3d">.

If this isn't too much work, the next time you have the null check error show up, would you be able to comment back here (or dm me) with exactly what you did, including which post/comment it was you were interacting with?

unknown1234_5@kbin.earth on 10 Jan 22:00 collapse

using this comment to test

unknown1234_5@kbin.earth on 10 Jan 22:01 collapse

it does seem to have the loading thing, I'll reply again here if it still happens or maybe mention it on matrix (same username).

Flax_vert@feddit.uk on 09 Jan 20:59 next collapse

Nutomic and Dessalines may be tankies, but they’re our tankies

Blaze@feddit.org on 09 Jan 21:00 next collapse

Good way to phrase it ha ha

jagged_circle@feddit.nl on 10 Jan 03:53 next collapse

They may be your tankis, but they sure arent our tankies.

They can fuck right off

GrammarPolice@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 04:18 next collapse

😂💯

Flax_vert@feddit.uk on 10 Jan 07:12 next collapse

They are literally developing the platform we are on. Sure, I don’t agree with their opinion at all, but it doesn’t mean I can’t respect their work.

jagged_circle@feddit.nl on 10 Jan 07:22 next collapse

Doing a pretty shit job at it.

I used to use reddit. Those devs made the same mistake, and I dont respect either.

ChapulinColorado@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 08:33 next collapse

Can you elaborate on what you mean?

teohhanhui@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 10:09 next collapse

Reddit was literally co-founded by Aaron Swartz (RIP): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz

jagged_circle@feddit.nl on 10 Jan 15:22 collapse

Not listening to to community. We are the content creators on reddit. Reddit should have done as we asked. They threw us under the bus.

Lemmy devs dont listen to their community. Instance admins point out serious legal issues regarding moderation, and they say they don’t fix those bugs because user privacy doesn’t matter.

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 19:10 collapse

He admitted it he was wrong at the end of the ticket and fixed accordingly: github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/2384#issuecom…

Unfortunately there was some miscommunication in this issue and we failed to get to the root cause. In fact the Lemmy backend has an option to delete all content when an account is deleted. This used to be the default behaviour but was changed in 0.19 so you need to set a parameter delete_content. We failed to add a checkbox for this parameter to lemmy-ui.

However the checkbox is added now in #2385 and will be included in the next Lemmy release. Other frontends and clients may also need to adjust the delete_account api call.

Flax_vert@feddit.uk on 10 Jan 09:04 collapse

Then develop it yourself.

TheObviousSolution@kbin.melroy.org on 11 Jan 16:27 collapse

That's because you choose to. You could easily move to mbin, for example. This post made me realize I had been holding back on it without a good reason.

thoro@lemmy.ml on 10 Jan 18:25 collapse

Why don’t you first?

jagged_circle@feddit.nl on 10 Jan 18:42 collapse

As soon as Sublinks is live I will.

Lemmy is making the same mistake as Reddit, and they’ll be an exodus when we have an alternative

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 19:08 collapse

As soon as Sublinks is live I will.

piefed.social is more promising, and almost there except mobile apps. Feel free to try it out.

baatliwala@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 05:00 collapse

Not wrong lol. I dislike their behavior but still contribute code to lemmy.

Flax_vert@feddit.uk on 10 Jan 07:13 collapse

Same, I am very opposed to their views, but they make this platform, so I respect them as FOSS developers

ChapulinColorado@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 08:31 collapse

And the day that something bad in general about the code can be said? That’s when developers fork. It means something different to us.

hono4kami@slrpnk.net on 09 Jan 21:43 next collapse

I wrote this before

I spotted Dessalines posted literal propaganda on some community I joined

gotta be honest that does not sit well with me

Rhoeri@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 02:22 next collapse

Yep. And note how the other mods/admins are almost always found commenting alongside them.

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 09:29 next collapse

Switch to Piefed or Mbin?

FuzzyWeevil@lemmynsfw.com on 10 Jan 15:52 collapse

Lemmy.world has literal propaganda, too.

They posted a Radio Free Asia article and banned anyone who pointed out it’s a government run CIA propaganda op. Even redditors know that’s propaganda lol.

It’s everywhere, you can’t avoid it, you just have to learn to be discerning, media critical, and look into sources.

TORFdot0@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 00:39 next collapse

It has mbin and piefed on the list, so it’s not harming the network at all. If anything it’s more healthy with more platforms rather than just ml and world. It’s one site directing people to the fedi, I’m not butthurt about it

Rhoeri@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 02:05 next collapse

Makes sense to me.

aesthelete@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 05:17 next collapse

Yeah watch out for that sotware

rarbg@lemmy.zip on 10 Jan 05:34 next collapse

It’s just a random person that registered a domain. Be the change you want to see and make your own?

teohhanhui@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 09:52 collapse

I mean, personally I don’t disagree with that random person 😂

clot27@lemm.ee on 10 Jan 07:29 next collapse

Valid concern imo, Dev’s are just dickheads

MITM0@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 16:39 next collapse

So you take it out on their projects ? Coward

bilb@lem.monster on 10 Jan 16:58 collapse

No, they aren’t.

recreationalcatheter@lemm.ee on 10 Jan 11:20 next collapse

Hmmmm, could it be the totalitarian-fellating developers? 🤔

IIIllIII@sh.itjust.works on 11 Jan 01:59 collapse

Lemmy was made by patriotic Americans?

cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 10 Jan 13:42 next collapse

hm, raddle.me / postmill looks promising though. is it federated at all? i haven’t dived into the code enough yet but i’d love it as an alternative.

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 15:22 collapse

Seems very quiet: raddle.me/new

ikidd@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 15:39 next collapse

The reasoning they give is ludicrous. That’s idiotic as saying because someone put up a pedophile website, Apache is the devil. Even if Apache were built by NAMBLA, if it’s opensource and doesn’t randomly insert pictures of naked kids into your website, how does the developer matter to the product?

petrol_sniff_king@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 10 Jan 22:34 collapse

If Nambla owned Apache, I think Apache should be taken from Nambla.

wpb@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 16:02 next collapse

“I’m gonna stop using GNU/Linux because I don’t like Richard Stallman”

It’s valid to dislike the devs (I disagree, I’ve found them nothing but courteous, and have read their posts with interest), but it’s ridiculous to exclude their software from this list.

DudeImMacGyver@sh.itjust.works on 10 Jan 17:07 next collapse

Could you, like, maybe post the explanation we’re supposed to be discussing for context instead of making us go search for it?

LarsIsCool@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 18:04 collapse

Why was Lemmy removed from the list of fediverse alternatives?

Lemmy was removed due to:

Keep in mind that software is by no means “neutral”. The people who make it make decisions about how it works based on their beliefs and goals. That’s why, for example, you can’t quote posts on Mastodon (at least for now), but you can do so on other fediverse platforms.

DudeImMacGyver@sh.itjust.works on 10 Jan 19:26 next collapse

Thanks! Damn, maybe I should move to Mbin. Anyone know if there’s a good mobile client for it?

Blaze@feddit.org on 10 Jan 23:10 collapse

!interstellar@kbin.earth

DudeImMacGyver@sh.itjust.works on 11 Jan 00:34 next collapse

I’ll have to check that out, thanks!

DudeImMacGyver@kbin.earth on 12 Jan 15:31 collapse

Sold! Mbin > Lemmy on interface alone

DudeImMacGyver@kbin.earth on 12 Jan 15:31 collapse

I checked it out and am sold on the app as well as Mbin lol

Phegan@lemmy.world on 11 Jan 01:49 collapse

God damn it, of all the garbage people to quote, why did it have to be LaRouche

AI_toothbrush@lemmy.zip on 10 Jan 17:33 next collapse

This is so stupid. Did everyone stop using ballpoint pens because the inventor was a nazi? No.

Bob_Robertson_IX@discuss.tchncs.de on 10 Jan 20:37 next collapse

but… I wouldn’t drive a Tesla because of Elon Musk.

AI_toothbrush@lemmy.zip on 10 Jan 20:41 next collapse

But by buying a tesla youre giving elon money and promoting his product which is much more closely tied to his views than lemmy is to the devs views.

surph_ninja@lemmy.world on 11 Jan 16:11 collapse

Would you drive a Ford? Because you should read up on Henry Ford’s beliefs if so.

How about BMW? Wanna talk about their history? Actually, give me a car company you like, and we’ll just dig into that one.

I wouldn’t drive a Tesla because they’re shitty cars.

petrol_sniff_king@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 10 Jan 22:31 next collapse

Ballpoint pens don’t spread nazi propaganda. I don’t know where you thought this was going.

Bronzebeard@lemm.ee on 10 Jan 23:50 collapse

Have you used a pen before? They definitely can spread propaganda…

ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world on 11 Jan 15:43 collapse

Well, at least pens don’t have a proprietary algorithm by said nazi to make it not function when you want to write something that is not nazi propaganda, unlike things like Twitter, where the far-right is being boosted.

Emperor@feddit.uk on 12 Jan 19:17 collapse

at least pens don’t have a proprietary algorithm by said nazi to make it not function when you want to write something that is not nazi propaganda

Don’t give them ideas.

ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world on 11 Jan 15:38 collapse

<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/5da9e349-d1cb-47ad-91af-43c5a2582de6.png">

At least one people involved with the ballpoint pen was Jewish, so there’s that.

[deleted] on 10 Jan 08:07 next collapse

.

[deleted] on 10 Jan 18:42 next collapse

.

TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee on 11 Jan 13:44 next collapse

Their claims regarding privacy are really not surprising, it’s very on-brand for the developer’s ideology to eliminate transparency for users in the platform while keeping everything stored and federated in the back end for the ruling elite, which if and when they decide to, become the arbiters of who can and won’t see it. They haven’t even bothered to provide any form of recourse to contest it, you basically have to go looking for people yourself. At least until mod member lists are made private too.

I fully agree with their decision, Lemmy is transient at best. They could still include Mbin, but why include a loaded deck? Actually, decided to check, yep, they did, kudos to them, they really did think it through.


Downvote all you want, still ain’t gonna change that jointhefediverse.net decision (based as fuck) 😂

superkret@feddit.org on 11 Jan 14:42 collapse

I have no idea what you’re even trying to say.

TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee on 11 Jan 15:28 collapse

I have no idea why that would be surprising or I should care.

LandedGentry@lemmy.zip on 11 Jan 21:05 collapse

You’re a real treat

TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee on 12 Jan 06:28 collapse

I would think so, given I’m actually replying, something the accounts with significant periods of inactivity or with simply no activity at all making upvotes/downvotes don’t seem to be doing.

lukewarm_ozone@lemmy.today on 11 Jan 14:22 next collapse

Is there some feature comparison of lemmy vs mbin vs other reddit-like platforms? There was some major reason why I didn’t like kbin, but I forgot why.

Blaze@feddit.org on 11 Jan 14:30 collapse

They keep changing every few weeks, so I guess that’s why people haven’t summarized the differences.

Do you have any question in particular?

lukewarm_ozone@lemmy.today on 11 Jan 15:58 collapse

I see. No, I don’t think I have any specific questions at this point.

Blaze@feddit.org on 11 Jan 16:12 collapse

There’s also piefed.social that is promising

StopTouchingYourPhone@lemmy.world on 11 Jan 16:30 collapse

ty for this post. Looks like a well-trod ground for most people here, but for newcomers like me the whole conversation was really enlightening and TIL.