from AnonomousWolf@lemm.ee to fediverse@lemmy.world on 12 Feb 14:53
https://lemm.ee/post/55334864
Small things like ‘Auto expand media’ being set to true, can have a huge impact on user retention rate.
The vast majority of people never open or change default settings in the social media they use.
When they try out Lemmy etc., and the defaults aren’t great a lot of them will have a bad User Experience and leave.
I’m a IT professional, and joined Lemmy a few months ago, the UX sucked, most of that could have been fixed by having good defaults in place.
I powered through, but I won’t recommend Lemmy to many of my friends or family because I know they will give up due to too much friction in finding the right settings and how things work.
For the Fediverse to succeed focus needs to be put on giving people a very smooth UX from first opening a app or page, to finding enjoyment seeing and engaging with content.
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We should experiment with setting different defaults for new users.
For new signups, set ‘Auto expand media’ to true for half of users, give it 3 months or a year and see what effect it has on user retention.
There’s faster ways to get data. We can do a few surveys on existing users. We’ll get hundreds of responses easily. Perhaps multiple surveys, one for each setting.
That’s a great idea, how can we get this ball rolling?
Since the project is already okay with Github, perhaps a set of polls in Github with this feature, linked far and wide in Lemmy.
Feel free to crosspost to !fedibridge@lemmy.dbzer0.com, it’s a community dedicated to promote Lemmy and make it more welcoming to new joiners, so your post would fit right in!
Thank you, I will do that and join their cause
It’s not that popular of a concept on here, probably since there’s massive selection bias (everyone here evidently found a way to struggle through), but you’re completely right and I find that that lazer focus on usability is one place that Open Source advocates and projects often struggle with.
And personally, I think it’s because most open source projects are built and run by programmers since they’re the ones who can build an open source project, whereas a consumer facing site like Reddit / FB / TikTok/ IG, would be planned out and designed by a product manager, working closely with a designer and market researcher, and then get programmers to build that for them.
It’s a model that’s really difficult to pull off though in a community primarily consisting of programmers volunteering their free time, but I think it’s worth keeping that in mind. Open Source projects that are consumer facing (and especially ones that rely on network effects), really need to work hard to stay in that user facing headspace.
That’s the problem yes, but we can make small changes that will have a huge impact.
It’s a very easy change to default ‘Auto expand media’ to true for half of new users, and see what effect it has over a few months. It’s also a fun experiment with no real drawbacks.
Writing the code to do that is very easy, determining what metrics are actually important and impact user success and what metrics accurately track user success is much harder.
I do generally agree though! Personally I just asked the instance admins of lemmy.ca to redirect
lemmy.ca/r/…URLs tolemmy.ca/c/…URLs (rather than 404ing), as a tiny user facing feature for Redditors coming over, and they did it in a second.Sure pulling the metrics might be a little harder. But it costs us basically nothing to experiment.
Small changes like the one you mentioned is a big win, these things add up.
Default instances would go a long way, I know there’s a lot of hate for lemmy.world but defaulting to the biggest instance or a random one in the top 10 would help ease some of the early friction. Users can choose an instance later when they get more comfortable with the platform.
Federation is neat but the average person just wants to scroll and chat
I completely agree. People who have never had to do this before May not know what to pick and never sign up because of it.
lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/37336391 (pinned on !fedibridge@lemmy.dbzer0.com ), nowadays I basically go with:
" Lemmy has 47k monthly active users
Feel free if you have any questions"
Top 10 ( lemmy.fediverse.observer/list )
I made a more complete analysis in this post lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/37336391 (pinned on !fedibridge@lemmy.dbzer0.com ), nowadays I basically go with:
" Lemmy has 47k monthly active users
Feel free if you have any questions"
Because yes, the USA/EU question appeared during the Luigi announcement in LW.
I would suggest something like phtn.app as an alternative desktop frontend (also has mobile view support)
This looks so nice!!
Thats very nice actually, can it be self hosted? Might use that as my desktop frontend.
I really don’t understand how this is actually a problem. It’s just “shit”, that’s very moderate profanity.
But it’s not serious and evokes images of a spotty teenager in a basement.
honestly when I joined I thought it was “shhh 🤫 it just works”
Some people are used to browse Reddit at work. Browsing a website with shit on it isn’t ideal.
Does lemm.ee have as obvious a political stance as LW?
The only time I’ve seen my instance brought up in comments and whatnot is in discussions about how we don’t block any other instances. I’m out here rawdawgging all the propaganda baby
Haha, I am too ;)
What “obvious” political stance might that be?
To me, it’s “somewhere on the progressive side of the median” but I’m almost expecting you to say “fascist” or something, given the extent of America’s polarization.
Another thing: in popular communities the comments are coming from all over, so without keeping a mental tally of everyone’s usernames I find it’s getting quite hard to pin down any particular instance’s biases.
Neoliberal is what I’m referring to.
This was exactly my point! “Neoliberal.”
By that I mean the renewal of capitalism over state as economic and general government policy, not “democrat/liberal.” But liberals are neoliberal as they subscribe to that ideology as a fish subscribed to the water they live in.
At heart, liberalism just means putting the individual before the collective. So there can be lots of varieties of liberal. But a debate on terminology will quickly get quite boring. From what I can tell, this community is hardly even liberal, let alone neoliberal. That was my point. It seems that people are seeing in others the ideologies they want to see.
I’m not debating terminology I just thought based on your comment that your mistakenly thought neoliberal meant liberal not new liberalism. It’s confusing they use the same root :)
I disagree. I mean LW is neoliberal in they see keeping the western gov status quo as good.
Lemm.ee tries to be as middle-ground as possible and defederates from no “controversial” instances
An anarchist instance having strict rules is quite ironic.
No, suggesting actual websites to people, rather than “Lemmy”, would go a long way.
Default instances result in centralization. In recreating the existing structures that, ostensibly, we’re all here to reject.
Once people are in the ecosystem it’s easy for them to move around, if eg. lemm.ee mods go on a powertrip it would be such a smooth transition for people to switch.
I agree, a gateway drug is what we are looking for. Imagine trying to learn how to run before you learned how to walk. We are asking a lot of the masses if we want to see user growth here without a simple and easy to understand starting place.
I think the hardest concept for beginners to grok is that they can’t login with one account to all instances. If we were to improve the UX around that experience solely, we would see greater adoption.
!yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com has plenty of reports from power tripping mods on popular instances, those instances are still the most used
Fair, maybe we can randomly select one of the top 10 to suggest as default. 🤷♂️
Idk the best solution, we can do AB testing if needed
I’m going to disagree on this one, I’ve seem far too many comments, especially from LW users, along the lines of “I can’t be bothered to change websites because I’m already settled in.” Most people are attached to their posts and content and consider moving instance as “losing progress”. And the bigger an instance is the harder it’ll be to leave if they ever pull something seriously “power trippy” that could lock off content to some people, because there will be a large mass of communities and posts on that instance.
It might be ideal to randomly default one of the top 10 instances
The user can still choose to not go with the default, it might also spread out users more.
Currently I think people just looks whats fhe biggest, and join that. Thats basically what I did because it was overwhelming to pick
So one thing I wonder is if there would be some way that when they are creating an account, for them to put some info in- mostly language spoken and maybe preferred country to start and it randomly selects a default general interest server. That might help onboard people easier without everyone joining one instance
Defaulting to any one instance would be against the goals of federation, I think. Much better to have a centralized site to help people find an instance that uses factors that wouldn’t bias too much. Perhaps pushing towards “general purpose” instances that would make geographical sense. And then you could highlight instances that cater towards more specific groups. But I think the goal of this would be to spread users across many instances rather than funnel them all towards one.
I might propose having something things like server ping be a factor, and capacity of the instance. Perhaps instances could also be shown with their largest communities so that people could see the vibe of the instance before they join.
A geographically based default is a great idea.
I know I favour this, but I may be biased.
My main tip for picking an instance is go for a region or topic specific instance so your local feed is manageable and relevant.
lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/37336391 (pinned on !fedibridge@lemmy.dbzer0.com ), nowadays I basically go with:
" Lemmy has 47k monthly active users
Feel free if you have any questions"
I’d rather join-lemmy (and join-fediverse) were smarter.
Have a series of questions (for join-fediverse add “what service do you want?”):
Where are you?
What languages do you speak?
Select your hobbies from the list below:
And it then spits out 2 or 3 instances.
It’s what I’d do if someone asked me directly for a recommendation and should be relatively easy to do.
As we say with someone posting a link to db0 on r/piracy, if you just say to people “this is the instance for you” and it seems relevant then they make the jump. I’m tempted to go to the main subs for Canada, Australia, the UK, etc and just post a link to the relevant instance.
Be ready to get your post removed for self promotion, and yourself banned. That’s what I noticed on most countries subs (except Australia I guess? !melbourne@aussie.zone still thriving everyday)
I personally value the decentralization and personal control a lot more than laypeople being arsed to try to figure it out. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t even be here in the first place. Why try to accommodate for users that don’t give a crap about the main selling point by diminishing the said selling point?
You would still have control over it. It would just remove a barrier to entry.
Not a lot of thought was put into selecting the defaults, all I’m saying is at the very least we should put thought into the defaults that are set. It takes away no control from the user.
If people went as far as registering in a Lemmy instance, they clearly have some affinity towards the Fediverse. Getting through Fediverse to work nicely for them is what bridges the gap. It’s the same with anything people do. Better defaults is a trivial low hanging fruit that can help perhaps significantly.
I don't give that much importance to the default but I wish I could turn it on and off easily without having account. Some instances I've visited have enabled it by default when I don't want it, and vice-versa.
Mastodon: When you block someone they no longer can interact with you or your content
Lemmy: When you "block" someone they can mine your content forever
Nothing you can really do about preventing someone from looking at your posts unless you make your profile private, and I don’t think Lemmy has that concept.
Can you explain?
I think they're complaining that Lemmy uses the older method of blocking instead of the more modern version.
The old way of blocking is that you don't want to see a person, but they're still free to do what they want. It's just not shown to you. So they can still read everything you post and downvote or reply to it as they please.
The modern way is to prevent the blocked user from interacting with you at all, including seeing your posts.
I don't use Lemmy, so I don't know which it uses, but it sounds like OP is arguing that Mastodon uses the latter but Lemmy uses the former. Reddit used to do the former but eventually changed to the latter.
But it’s all public, right? You can’t block people from seeing stuff you post publicly.
Yeah also the blocking instances capabilities on Lemmy are a fucking joke
Block an instance at user level? You still have to deal with their users and you see crossposts
Defederate an instance? You still see their crossposts if someone from another instance does it
What part of that counts as blocking? It should be as nuclear as possible, that’s what blocking is for, because someone doesn’t want anything to do with them.
Also I know Lemmy is not private, but not being able to completely delete posts/comments still irks me.
Personally I find the UX better on PieFed (unless it's for a part where most of the development hasn't happened yet, so yeah it's hit or miss). See e.g. the tiling view.
I had to find this theme (and tweak the colours a bit) to just stand the site. The userscript Lemmytools also helps a bit, albeit half broken.
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That’s my point, it’s so many loops people aren’t going to jump through.
While this is of course true (and I too have professional experience in this field), my own experience is the opposite. The UX and defaults here are generally better than on, for example, the R-site.
Everything boils down to preferences, but Lemmy defaults is not necessarily keeping up with the trends. Small thumbnails were more useful back when internet traffic was slow and/or expensive, today it's more of an acquired taste.
I wish different instances dared to have more different defaults, so that one instance would look significantly different from another beyond just colour scheme. I still haven't seen a single instance run something like Alexandrite or Photon by default, and while I guess there are good reasons for that I think it would have been a welcome addition.
I would run one if it was worth running, but for me none of them reach the default level let alone exceeds it. But I guess everyone is different, and it’s open source so anyone can see all the code and make it look however they want. So I guess we just really need someone that does frontend design and wants to make something better.
I believe, like I saw mentioned above, that that default theme is also set to change with Lemmy 1.0 release.
Isn’t there a new UI in the works for the 1.0 release anyways?
Yeah, if I hadn’t been so committed to Rexit, I doubt I would have stuck around long enough to find a UX that I liked. Just to name one, it’d be nice if MLMYM were a default skin.
That’s a great point and a really low hanging fruit that would likely help with adoption and retention. The defaults weren’t great for me either.
We have a few different frontends available on feddit.uk, you can easily tell a new user that there are different ways of viewing the same content and to pick their favourite
Sure but is the default feddit.uk ? because that sucks, and many people will give up before finding p.feddit.uk
What makes you think it sucks? That’s just your opinion, do you mainly just look at image posts? Personally I prefer posts being collapsed by default so I can scroll through and find the interesting ones. Arbitrarily setting one thing as the default is just as bad as setting another.
Years ago I did a UX study on Lemmy’s frontend, and tbh not much has changed since. Things like when editing a thread, the Save button is multiple proximity separators apart from the text you’re editing, making it very easy to missclick cancel. Or in the community search, you can’t search on specific instances that aren’t yours.
I’ve gotten very used to the UI over time but it definitely needs a “pain point” passover
I always use an app so I barely interact with the web ui
Same here for 99% of the time, Sync for Lemmy is how I see and prefer this type of site.
I am almost certainly not the “normal” user, but the default theme is much better usability wise than the “p” version. The one would have me looking for an alternative UI/app.
I get that, but we need to cater for the massss if we want to see lemmy grow
Why do we need to change what current users already like to attract some theoretical new user that might want a dumbed-down view? This is starting to sound like infinite-growth corpo speak!
There’s a lot of margin between 47k monthly active users and infinite growth
True, but this also isn’t corporate America that needs to chase users to make the graph go up. New users will come or they won’t, I think chasing them is a fool’s errand.
Edit Oops, an important word!
It’s something I’ve raised with the other Admins and we may see if our users would be up for swapping the default frontend to one of the others.
Agreed. And the default UI hasn't even gotten attention in the past. It's just there. My experience with Lemmy has been that the devs fix bugs, but they're mostly focused on the backend. I'm not sure about the consequences, though. A lot of people seem to be using phone apps, so their default might not even be Lemmy's UX.
Which in turn is probably the reason why the devs dont focus on Web ui
Yeah, when I first started out here, my experience was like this:
I went to the join Lemmy page, then clicked to show all servers. Then waited. And waited. Then I went to bed.
By the next morning, the list of servers had managed to load. I spotted one that was advertised as “recommended for users to join to reduce load on the Fediverse”, which seemed like a good idea after seeing how even the join page was battling to load.
Found out that the server I joined seemed to have all sorts of issues loading content. And was apparently de-federated from a bunch of instances that align with my interests. So search results were showing me little to nothing in regards to queer communities for example, only dead communities.
Signed up on world instead and encountered multiple posts that said they had comments but loaded nothing. Found out that there were no languages selected in my settings. So I selected ‘undefined’, scrolled down, selected ‘English’, then saved.
I was still missing a bunch of posts after that, so I went back to settings and saw that ‘undefined’ was deselected again. That’s when I realised that you have to ctrl click each language you choose or else it just deselects the previous language that you clicked on.
Finally success! 3 or 4 days later. And now I’m here.
I would love to recommend Lemmy to the few people I know who use Reddit. But I can’t see any of them trying without just giving up and going back to the place where all you need to do is sign up and hey presto, content to look at and interact with.
I have a feeling that even the process of choosing an instance would probably put them off. I could give advice but there’s only so much I could do or explain without being there in person helping them. If they have to read walls of text explaining how to get started, it would probably end there.
I’m not sure what the solution is though, or if there even is one. It might just be a little bit like trying to recommend Linux to people who just want to be able to push a button and go. Which is the majority, based on what I’ve seen.
Also just one last thing and something that has been discussed to death. There’s just not enough content here yet for the average person to see any reason to switch over from the place with all the content.
And on that note, recommending this place to people that I know in real life would be too risky right now that they would see my account and figure out who I am. Because there isn’t a crowd of a million people to slip into and disappear here. And this isn’t Facebook. I don’t want people to know about the very personal things I sometimes say on anonymous social media.
This actually took me multiple months to figure out, Lemmy felt like a ghost town, now it feels like a small town at least
These things are so important to get right. We should address them, we’re likely losing so many users because you’re average person isn’t going to spend more than 10min to figure it out, definitely not 4 days
FYI, I added your initial post to this one lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/37336391 as a reason why join-lemmy.org isn’t a good recommendation
Spot on buddy. The web interface was rough AF until I got the app I’m using. People are going to give up easily. I’m tech savy and was an early adopter but gave up then with everything I was hearing I gave it a second shot.