Why do people on reddit seem to hate Lemmy/Mbin/other federated link aggregators?
from Yingwu@lemmy.dbzer0.com to fediverse@lemmy.world on 09 Nov 11:27
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/31169222
from Yingwu@lemmy.dbzer0.com to fediverse@lemmy.world on 09 Nov 11:27
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/31169222
I was just reading this post old.reddit.com/âŚ/is_reddit_going_to_remain_the_pr⌠and many barely see the fediverse as an alternative and they seem to have a negative bias towards it. Super ironic when it comes to the self-hosting community. Yes, some instances are problematic, yes, some devs might have had problematic views. But it doesnât really matter when itâs federated and FOSS. I think itâs clear-cut that the selfhosting community on Lemmy is a perfect alternative to reddit. Why is there such a negative bias?
threaded - newest
I mean thatâs basically the crux of it. That, and some moderation drama, and the software being very buggy a year ago giving people a bad first impression, and Lemmy still being susceptible to spam.
Itâll take some time before Lemmy (and the Threadiverse as a whole) improves its reputation and moves on from the âitâs a tankie websiteâ take. That said, a lot of people in that thread are making the case for Lemmy, so itâs mostly just people worried itâs not as popular.
Even if itâs not as popular, Iâd say the community might still be more solid in some cases. And that people are more responsive, especially with quality answers. Iâve noticed youâre chastised way more on reddit if you ask a âstupidâ question.
The last 2 reddit userbase diasporas were wildly more different than all of the previous ones combined.
When voat became a thing everyone already knew ahead of time that itâs ranks would be filled with facists; but it took a while for lemmy to earn its tankie stereotype and Iâm also glad that lemmyâs design helps ensure that itâll have more stamina that voat or any of the other reddit user digital refugee camp platforms that came before it.
I definitely avoided Lemmy the first go-round with the API fuckery because it seemed from the outside like basically just a tankie protest Reddit in a similar way to how Voat was just a neo-Nazi protest Reddit. To the Lemmy devsâ absolute credit, they donât push new users toward any of those, though.
I thought one day after having had a Mastodon for some time that I might not have given Lemmy a fair shake, so I went back and ended up finding that most instances are basically normal Reddit fare but honestly less shitty than Reddit proper (thereâs a trade-off that posts are less frequent and that small, niche communities can attract unwanted attention by having their posts almost immediately show up in âallâ).
Yup, things have definitely improved, especially with more extremist instances like lemmygrad being defederated and phased out. I do also want to give a shoutout to the devs for not pushing their stance and letting the platform grow naturally.
Just gonna put this out there. The devs push their stance plenty. Within their scope to do it from their echo chamber. Other than stopping development thereâs little they could currently do to impact growth in any way. And there have been issues with their development focus that have negatively impacted growth. Recalcitrance to focus much on moderation tools for instance. As well as at least reported issues difficulty contributing to the project by others. Though that at least is hearsay.
I think it helps to think of it this way: WE are using THEIR platform.
They don't need mod tools that work for communities and users located on a different instance as much as say Lemmy.World since the devs/admins simply use the instance-wide ban hammer for their own space. Hence that is not their focus. You can go to the trouble to learn Rust, and then fight with them to get your modifications accepted or...
Actually, I need to modify my statement above: YOU are using THEIR platform, but for those of us on Mbin, PieFed (which I'm on right now, and two new instances just opened up including one now in the USA), and soon Sublinks will come too (January was at some point a target iirc?), we have already moved on. None have reached feature parity yet tbh, though even so there are a lot of features that exist that Lemmy itself lacks, so there's that, and being written in common languages should help enormously with them catching up.
So whether these are "as good as Reddit", well, beauty is in the mind of the beholder. It's not a clear win either way, but they are getting closer to being comparable.
Not desalines or any ML controlled group. All they did was create a Reddit like interface to the platform. After being driven from Reddit for their intolerance.
I sometimes post from Mastodon to servers running this and other software. In fact the reason Iâm on world. Is specifically due to its relation to mastodon.social. one of the bigger Mastodon instances I use. Itâs got nothing to do with a software. If Rud and the other admins decided tomorrow to migrate the database to a different backend. I donât think there would be much outrage or many people would care. In fact Iâm certainly probably will in the future. As soon as a back end is available that provides significantly better Community / magazine moderating tools. Since I will significantly whiten the load on server administrators. Since things can be done at the community level instead of at the server all the time.
Fair point about the ActivityPub protocol being an entirely different set of developers yet still the "Lemmy" software that you are currently using - both the backend Lemmy implementation of ActivityPub and also the web UI (unless you are using an alternate approach via an app, in which case that brings up a third in the API for Lemmy) - owes its ownership entirely to the same team that also administers the Lemmy.ML instance.
And the above quote I presumed to refer to lemmy.ml (and others like lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net; though that is only the beginning of what some people might consider "problematic" e.g. beehaw has defederated from lemmy.world, and the midwest.social admin has been caught banning people merely for downvoting their comment), since I recalled several discussions on Reddit (before the Rexodus) about the "problematic devs" which referred to the "tankie admins" on lemmy.ml (and worse yet lemmygrad.ml). Ofc there were other issues with other instances such as exploding-heads, but that would not seem to intersect at all with the "devs".
But yeah there could be problematic Mbin instances too? Though I don't recall ever hearing any discussions of those.
And similarly with PieFed, or Sublinks.
Speaking of, several places have announced wanting to switch from Lemmy to Sublinks when it becomes available, due to the back-end compatibility that is expected to have, when/if-ever it is released (January was some kind of a target date at some point iirc?). That includes Tesseract on dubvee.org, beehaw, and even Lemmy.World.
In the meantime, I have not heard any updates about Sublinks for almost half a year now, though PieFed is entirely functional *today* - e.g. I am speaking to you from it now. Though it's not terribly polished, e.g. I can no longer see your user- or instance name due to the way that comment replies are handled, nor any of the background context except your last reply to me and the OP, and quite often upvotes do not show in the proper color so I end up hitting it multiple times (upvote, oops the number went down, I must have already done it previously even though it wasn't showing in the green indicator color, so hit upvote again, then repeat the next time again, and/or with other comments as well). Though it has some REALLY nice moderation enhancement abilities - caveat: I am not a mod so haven't seen the actual tools, or even know if such exist. Nonetheless it is exciting to see those developments that have happened already:-).
Can you actually point to any instances of the devs dragging their feet on accepting changes or is this just conjecture? Iâve contributed to Lemmy, and plan to do so in future, and my experience is that theyâre fairly accepting of changes.
I don't know Rust or much about the Lemmy codebase. Possibly people were simply complaining about a time delay - a large part of that being understandable due to the nature of how Federation works, i.e. you don't want to cause corruption even among servers running older versions of the software.
I wouldnât hold my breath. I keep an eye on the project Matrix, itâs pretty quiet.
Piefed is much more promising.
Thanks for the additional insight:-).
The PieFed devs indeed seem *very* responsive, and I have great hopes for it too.
Though I don't know if e.g. Lemmy.World would consider switching to use it as they were hoping to do with Sublinks. For it providing a "social media platform" it is coming along nicely even if currently lacking polish, though from the perspective of migration of existing content into... well perhaps that's doable as well but I definitely know far less about that:-).
Fediverse
Threadiverse refers specifically to the subset of the Fediverse with threaded conversations, like Lemmy and Mbin.
Sounds too much like Threads, the invasive corporate thing which can get fucked. Never going to market for them.
donât let them change the meaning of our words then
Likewise the heroic nerds of the Threadiverse coined the term months before Threads was even announced, and they would be hard pressed to give it up to some scumbag billionaire.
It's an epic culture war being fought between two largerly agreeing parties.
that is a personal problem, not a general protocol based one.
It is a marketing problem.
i agree. bending over for people butthurt about meta seems like a great way to limit your market artificially.
then again, i named my public instance moist
Wouldn't it also cause confusion for some people to say Threadiverse while other people refuse to say that and instead use Fediverse?
Ofc strictly speaking both are true.
Hehe, Forumverse? :-)
the threadiverse is a subset of the fediverse (microblog + threaded forums)
forumverse isnt a bad suggestion... doesnt seem to roll off the tongue though. im going to use threadiverse as its the value i want to see and i dont give 2 shits about meta.
One line of thinking that intrigues me, which you might be interested in as it relates even more to Mbin: at what point do we differentiate between where the content is located, vs. how we access it?
So like PieFed exists - I am talk to you from it right now - but if I were to make a post, let's say to !tenforward@lemmy.world, then am I posting on "Lemmy"? There is next to no content that is exclusively located "*on*" an instance running PieFed itself, so PieFed is my vehicle to access Lemmy content, in a way?
Then again, a better way would be to say that it was PieFed content, shared "*with*" the Lemmy instance where the community is moderated (via the ActivityPub protocol), and from there shared around the world, to whatever people are running to receive it - Mbin, Kbin, Sublinks, Tesseract, etc.
And all of that is still just within the Threadiverse, but how to say what Mbin does? Does Mbin access "Mastodon content" as well as "Lemmy content", or rather "microblog content on the Fediverse" as well as "threaded content on the Fediverse"?
I am not even sure what name the "microblog content on the Fediverse" goes by, b/c people usually say just "Fediverse", but also things like PixelFed (Instagram replacement) and Friendica (Facebook replacement) are part of the Fediverse too, so if "threaded content on the Fediverse" becomes "Threadiverse", then "microblog content on the Fediverse" is going to have to be renamed to something other than Fediverse too?
Since in the last six months Mbin doubled the number of comments made monthly, the distinction is becoming more noticeable - yet it is still 10k posts and 75k comments, vs. 9.4 million posts and 16.7 million comments from something running the software "Lemmy" (https://lemmy.fediverse.observer/stats).
Then too, if Lemmy.World switched over to use Sublinks (as they hinted at several months ago...), would most of this content (especially since ~80% of the Lemmy userbase is located on that server) switch from being "Lemmy" to now "Sublinks"? Setting aside the question of "what even *is* Lemmy, anyway?", my question to you is: what even is Mbin, anyway? Does it cross-browse "Mastodon *and* Lemmy content", or is it like a new, hybrid thing, b/c it doesn't *just* browse e.g. Mastodon content, but also can host its own microblog-formatted content too, shared with servers that run Mastodon as its software, as well as its own forum-based content shared with servers that run Lemmy (which can replace themselves with Sublinks) and PieFed.
Whew, this is getting complex!? No wonder people just say "Fediverse" and leave it at that!:-P
i used to call the micrblog stuff the 'twitterverse'.. and i kind of still want to. I may edit my mbin instance to use that term, and i also hate 'magazine' in favor of 'Subs' or 'Community'
to me all of these server products are federating media servers with varying access to those 2 pieces. the underlying software should be nearly irrelevant except for them.
the 'community/magazine' is the source of the data and 'remote' servers cache that data. when i post to tenforward im posting to the source@itshomeinstance and my server receives a copy.. a locally cached version.
my server still has a ton of kbin.social content for example despite that server being doa.
i refer to my instance, at the moment, as primarily an 'onramp' server. my users utilize it to access remote content almost exclusively as you point out piefed does. But, my server also caches a huge amount of fediverse data.. both from all the lemmys and major microblog platforms mastodon, threads, and universodeon among others.
the specific platform lemmy.world utilizes should have no impact on me or my users if they do things correctly.
Twitterverse - oh that's interesting!:-)
Irrelevant software - especially if forum-based (Threadiverse), user-based (Twitterverse), and other content (PixelFed/Insta, Loops underneath that, and whatever Friendica is about) were all to end up conjoined into a single "Feed" of whatever mixture proportions the user wants, that would indeed become a true "Fediverse":-).
But until that time... some of them do still seem somewhat separate, though perhaps artificially so.
federation - I made a post yesterday, but due to federation issues it now sits solely on PieFed (viewable from https://piefed.social/c/fediverse@lemmy.world?sort=new&layout=list), and presumably is not available from any other instances as well (e.g. looking at https://discuss.online/c/fediverse@lemmy.world?dataType=Post&sort=New, I do not see it). That's perhaps a fine example of how the various vehicles that we use to access the Fediverse are distinct from the sources of content - although tbh that type of occurrence is nowhere close to being unique wrt PieFed, as I've had similar things happen with StarTrek.website and heard of many such occurrences with the likes of Aussie.Zone and Programming.Dev, etc.
Some instances *COULD* theoretically hold content - e.g. PieFed has a Local filter where people discuss the specific issues relating to PieFed software, as well as a trollyproblems community, etc. - but in practice, the vast majority of content derives from Lemmy.World, or wherever the particular community (or magazine) is based in. And this too is not unique to PieFed - e.g. my previous instance Discuss Online likewise has a couple of communities (e.g. !linus_tech_tips@discuss.online), but the vast majority of that instance is as a "general purpose" one that mainly pulls in content from elsewhere rather than holding it on its own.
So such "onramp" servers are common across the Fediverse - whether running Mbin, Kbin, Lemmy, PieFed, or one day Sublinks, that's just a property of how the instance admin chooses to do things, and the people who want (or don't want) to make communities there.
And yeah, if Lemmy.World switched from Lemmy to Sublinks, or to PieFed, or even Mbin, then it would cease to be called "Lemmy" (although other servers would still be that, like Discuss Online), though would still fall under the heading "Fediverse", and whatever mid-range term used like "Threadiverse" as well. Although people seem to hate that term and argue whenever it is brought up.
I totally agree though - such software details shouldn't matter, and rather it's the "content" that we want to aim at, however we end up getting there:-).
The instance I first chose straight up disappeared, so yeah. It wasnât an easy migration.
In contrast to reddit, whos leadership never made any controversial decisions. /s
Doesnât !selfhosted@lemmy.world have like 40k subscribers? Top ten Lemmy community by sub count, iirc.
Bingbingbing!
The people still exclusively on Reddit are on Reddit because they don't like the Fediverse or they're unwilling to change their habits. Had they liked it and been genuinely open for change they would have made the switch, or at least used both platforms.
This is not so much true for the average user, as they might not be aware of the federated alternatives at all, or they might think it sounds too hard. But it's absolutely true for the self-hosting community.
Us vs them too. Itâs different, people hate change. So now there is a them and an usâŚ
Devs are allegedly Marxist-Leninists.
Redditors dont understand that devs dont exactly have full control of open source software, that different instances are not operated by the devs.
Edit: Lemmy devs to be specific
Also there are plenty of alternatives. Both PieFed and Mbin are perfectly fine platform with, as far as I know, no tankie developers associated with them.
Pretty sure that's only true about Lemmy. There are other threadiverse apps. The mistake is people calling the threadiverse lemmy.
Yep, though the alternatives are not quite there yet software wise, but MBin and Piefed arenât that far behindâŚ
I'm on a pretty old version of mbin (I have some modifications I made for federation issues back when it was kbin). I need to spend a weekend to pilot an upgrade and make sure I can run it safely live.
But even then it's better in some ways already and I never feel like I'm missing something from lemmy. But I think just calling the whole thing lemmy puts off people that are seeing things through a political lens.
yep. as an mbin cheerleader, i evaluated both and kbin was better looking and perfectly functional from the start. no app required. no custom user-land css.
but what really bothers me is the conflation of lemmy and fediverse. theyre used almost interchangeably. other platforms get lost in the discussion.
Alledgedly?
Marxist Leninst is a nice way to put it, they support Putin, Xi. Zhedong and Stalin.
Thankfully as you say, itâs FOSS with free federation and defederation. Admins only have control over lemmy.ml.
Mbin isn't
I donât get the hate against the lemmy devs tbh, they have their (perhaps controversial) political views but they leave everyone thatâs not on their site alone and it feels like they develop lemmy pretty impartially
sure they might ban you off ml but thatâs their site and they get to do whatever they want with it, just like every other instance
i mean network effect is a thing i guess but thatâs not as important on lemmy where there are usually similarly large communities about generic things on most major instances
Exactly ⌠itâs also a double standard because reddit is basically a capitalist model of the same digital system but no one ever complains or criticizes it.
The socialist digital creators built something and shared it freely with everyone and also donât exert control over anyone.
The capitalist digital creatures built something and locked it up, monetized it and are using the userâs efforts as the basis for the business only the owners make money on and have complete control over everything.
Itâs amazing because itâs a fantastic metaphor for the two platforms.
Calling them âsocialist digital creatorsâ is misleading at best, if not an outright insult to socialism.
They are marxists-leninists who whitewash the crimes committed by the USSR and CCP. They support the genocidal invasion by Russia, a country that is neither socialist or democratic; itâs an authoritarian capitalist oligarchy.
There is no double standard. You donât see the CTO of reddit running a subreddit dedicated to whitewashing the Pinochet regime and/or western colonialism in Africa or Asia.
Reddit is run by sketchy and corrupt individuals, it is possible that in a just world we would even call them criminals. Lemmyâs marxists-leninists are openly supportive of genocidal actions and brutal authoritarian leadership. There is no comparison.
Could provide a link to a comment or a quote where the devs whitewash the crimes or support genocides?
My man, the head developer of lemmy is the admin of lemmygrad. He has a fucking Mao picture in his profile!
Donât even try to weasel your way around this. This is not going to work with me.
I hate these people. Pathetic larpers living in democratic countries while supporting authoritarianism and genocide. And when I say hate, I donât mean it in the internet slang way (âhaterâ).
How should I put this without breaking any rules? I genuinely wish they meet the same fate as âDonbas Cowboyâ, Russell Bentley:
No, he is not. Check admins section on lemmygrad.ml, which profile do you think belongs to dessalines? He is only admin of lemmy.ml.
Itâs a controversial figure, but it doesnât mean that the dev supports crimes or genocides.
You judge people who support genocide, I get it and I here with you. But wishing death upon others because of their opinions? Thatâs just hypocrisy.
Are you sure about that? Why does this page state that:
With a further clarification that MuadâDibber (who is currently an admin) is dessalines
Is MuadâDibber not dessalines?
Controversial figure? Mao was a brutal dictator that directly caused an inordinate amount of deaths and suffering. He is no better than Stalin, Pinochet, Hitler or Pol Pot.
Since he runs lemmygrad, he most definitely supports the genocide of Ukrainians in the occupied territories. Before you start acting out, Iâd like to see you and your family try and speak Ukrainian in the occupied and try and publicly oppose russian occupaiton. I think the example I provided with the âDonbas Cowboyâ, Russell Bentley, should give you an idea of what life is like there.
And then there is also their support for the genocide of Uighurs in Xinjiang.
For you this is just random internet drama. I am not going to tolerate any degenerate LARPer shilling for russia and the CCP.
These are not mere opinions. These scoundrels wish me, my family and my fellow citizens harm in the most pathetic way possible; by LARPing online as marxist-leninists. It is reasonable to want them to end up like âDonbas Cowboyâ, Russell Bentley. This a just and fair end for Western LARPers who whitewash genocide.
My bad, I didnât know that! I assume itâs true then. Before the Reddit blackout, ML was a socialist-leaning instance (they edited the description of the instance), while Lemmygrad always were like this. It puzzles me why he might administrate both instances.
He made quite a lot of bad stuff, thatâs true. However, he also liberated the country from foreign occupation and advanced literacy, womenâs rights, basic healthcare, education, and life expectancy. Chinaâs population nearly doubled under his leadership. This is why he is considered controversial. Itâs strange to compare him with someone who occupied half of Europe.
You made conclusions about his opinions yourself and are trying to argue against them. Condemn actual statements. I donât see dessalines wishing harm on you, but I do see you doing the very thing you criticize him for.
Come on now. Does it really puzzle you why he would admin lemmygrad? I am sorry, I donât buy this.
So youâre saying that there is something inherent to Chinese culture that would not make it possible to advance literacy, womenâs right, basic healthcare without mass killings and brutality? Mao is a mass murderer.
Dessalines admins a instance that openly supports russiaâs (a country thatâs not in any way socialist) genocidal invasion of my country. Thatâs not wishing me harm?
Iâm just saying that itâs a bit weird to administrate two instances related to socialism (theyâre the two oldest instances), but maybe he has his reasons đ¤ˇ
Thatâs not what I said. I explained why he is considered controversial. He did many good stuff and thatâs why some Marxists like it. Not because some of his policies were responsible for a vast number of deaths - that would be weird đ
Sure, Russia isnât socialist by any stretch of the imagination. From what I can see, Lemmygrad users oppose NATO and US expansion, I donât think they want Ukrainian people to die.
He is an admin of lemmygrad. A cesspool of degenerate LARPers that support genocidal imperialism.
Mao is a mass murderer and an authoritarian. If you support him, you are white washing his crimes. You do understand that good things can be achieved without mass killings and implementing an authoritarian, one party state? Difficult stuff, I know!
No, they support the killing of Ukrainians and extermination of Ukrainian identity. They support interment of ten of thousands of Ukrainian civilians in russian torture camps. They support the destruction of the Ukraine as a nation and Ukrainian cultural identity.
It is fair and just to want such vile individuals to get a taste of their own medicine.
The NATO expansion stuff is a ruse. NATO expansion is determined by national self-determination; especially when your neighbour is a country where a strong majority of the population are genocidal imperialist.
I never implied that deaths were necessary.
Thatâs a bold claim. Condemn actual peopleâs statements. Youâre making a strawman to justify your hate.
Thatâs the weirdest explanation Iâve ever heard đ Youâre also using the word âgenocideâ wrong. Genocide is a purposeful attempt to destroy any human group. In the case of Russia, thatâs just imperialism - they simply donât care about Ukrainians (sadly). Otherwise, any war could be called genocidal.
Then why are you white-washing Maoâs atrocities? Surely, if you think the death and absurd brutality (cultural revolution?) is not good thing, you would support movements and leaders who donât engage in such conducts.
Come on now. Donât play dumb.
They openly support and cheer for the Russian invasion? Why would I not hate them for this?
Show me an example of them condemning russian atrocities. Just one. I shouldnât hate people who white-wash russian crimes and claim they never happened?
Show me an example of them recognizing Ukrainian self-determination? One shouldnât hate people who want you to be a colony of the shithole that is russia?
Where is the strawman?
One would have to be a genocidal imperialist to state that a country should not have the right to aspire to join NATO (especially if you border russia).
Try speaking Ukrainian in the occupied territories or opening a Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
No, you just want to white wash russian crimes and the degenerates at Lemmygrad.
For example, when the US invaded Iraq, did they do the following:
I never did đ¤ˇ. White-washing is when you try to justify or make something bad look good. Iâm simply saying that he did both good and bad things, and some people admire him for the good parts. So, if someone likes Mao, it doesnât necessarily mean they support the deaths he caused.
I assert that people on Lemmygrad oppose NATO expansion and believe that the US is the greater evil. You claim that they wish harm upon Ukrainians. However, opposing US imperialism does not mean they want the Ukrainian people to suffer.
For example, looking at the upvotes on this comment from Lemmygradâs world news, itâs clear that they feel sympathy for Ukraine. There are individuals, like this commenter, who suggest bombing Ukraine, but the comment is downvoted.
This is why I wouldnât say that people on Lemmygrad want your nation to suffer. I donât necessarily agree with their opinions, but they certainly donât deserve death.
But you are trying to make something bad look good. Mao is a bad person. He is a mass murder, an authoritarian. Good things can and should be achieved without mass murder.
Their opposition to NATO expansion is just another facet of their support for genocidal imperialism because they know that being in NATO makes it much less likely that russians will invade. The âUS greater evilâ is all BS. If they truely believed that they would move to russia or china. But they donât, they LARP as communists while stuffing their mouths with Big Macs and playing US-developed video games (in which they try to role play their imperialist fantasies).
Really, this is best you could find? Youâre really grasping at straws here. How is this a proxy war? Russian literally invaded my country. This is a russian genocidal invasion. If the Americans forced everyone in a hypothetically annexed Basra to eat tex-mex pork chops and banned Arabic and sent anyone caught speaking it to torture camps, you wouldnât call it genocidal imperialism? Just war, right?
I asked you some clear and direct questions and you come up with BS? Do you even believe what you are writing or are you just essentially shitposting?
We both know they actively support and cheer on the russian invasion. In an explicit and genuine manner. They want russia to be successful in its invasion of Ukraine. They want Ukrainian speakers in the occupied territories to be sent to torture camps. It is not difficult to say the russians were wrong to invade and it is wrong to commit atrocities and torture people (instead of just blaming Ukraine for mobilization).
Why should I not hate them for this? Why shouldnât I want them to meet the same fate as the âDonbas Cowboyâ, Russell Bentley? Just imagine what was going through his mind in his last moments - must have a been a true moment of clarity. I want them to achieve that same that same level of clarity.
Can you explain this to me? You keep ignoring this point.
No, you implied that if someone likes Mao, then they support killing. And I said that itâs not the case - Marxists like him because of the good things he did and condemn the murders.
You said that they wish Ukrainians death. I said that I doubt it and provided messages that prove my point. You made up their statements and are arguing against them.
Consider this thread as an example. Read what they actually say. You blame only Russia, they think NATO plays important role as well. But no normal person wants the war, thatâs what I trying to say.
If the violence is the primary goal, then itâs called genocide.
I also doubt that Russia banned the Ukrainian language or sent people to torture camps for speaking it. Could you provide a source for this?
I answered a few messages above. I doubt that the devs wish harm to Ukraine or people in general. And even if they did, you would be no better than them đ¤ˇ
Of course, they support the killing. If they didnât, they wouldnât glorify Mao; a mass murders and an authoritarian scumbag.
Yes, they do wish Ukrainians death. They support the russian invasion and the russian occupation. The instance is rife with cheering for the russian army.
The NATO stuff is a ruse. Just a way to cover their support for genocidal imperialism. Ukraine was neutral ⌠wait for it ⌠before the russians invaded.
That thread is a cesspool of support russian genocidal imperialim.
This basically means we want russia to win to conduct more atrocities likes in Bucha. Just wild uncontrolled killing of civilians, rape and destruction. And Bucha is just one example that got in the news. There are mass graves in Izyum. Russians targeting civilians with drones in Kherson. Russians bombing a childrenâs cancer hospital with cruise missile.
But no, NATO made them do it! And not a word about russian atrocities.
You do know how to use web search, right? Youâre just going to say some non-sequitur about NATO and bla bla bla or that itâs all made up.
apnews.com/âŚ/ukraine-russia-prisons-civilians-torâŚ
edition.cnn.com/2024/05/05/europe/âŚ/index.html
khpg.org/en/1608814097
Thatâs not what I asked though.
We both agree that lemmygrad actively support the russian invasion of Ukraine. They cheer on the invasion and call for russian military success? Is this not true?
I asked you why I shouldnât hate them for it? Nothing to do with being no better them or whatever. I asked why I shouldnât hate people who support the invasion of my country and wish me harm?
Letâs see what they actually say.
Well, Iâm not sure how youâre interpreting this from the link I provided. You just making up their statements. I donât want to have to cite their comments every time just to provide a counter-claim.
AP is a credible source, and thereâs no doubt that Russian forces have harmed civilians. However, the claim that all Ukrainians who speak their language are imprisoned is questionable. For instance, Chechen is an official language in Russia despite two wars with Russia. Additionally, Russia provides citizenship to all Ukrainians, why would they imprison people for their native language? The article you referenced cites Radio Svoboda, which has ties to the CIA, so itâs not a reliable source.
I think my answer is correct. Youâre accusing them of supporting murder, yet you wish harm upon them yourself. If you prefer analogies, itâs like condemning murder while being guilty of it yourself.
I told you would downplay russian atrocities and come up with some CIA word salad. Youâve never been to Ukraine, you donât speak Ukrainian and you dare lecture me and tell me that russian invasion is not that bad?
Get fucked, you vile tankie! I hope the very atrocities you deny will catch up to you one day!
Sure, anything that doesnât align with your worldview is just word saladđ
Thatâs not what I said, but whatever đ¤ˇ
Hope some day you chill and wonât be that toxic.
For the same reason Youtube is doing with Odysee and Peertube - money - walled garden.
I was just thinking about this because Iâve been going through and blocking every political community. Iâve found that when that is gone, thereâs really not that much left aside from random technology focused stuff, some memes, asinine twitter screenshots, and a fuck ton of linux stuff. And the comments sections of seemingly unrelated posts often devolve into political shit slinging. Iâm on an instance that blocks lemmygrad and hexbear so I can imagine itâs far worse for the ones that donât. Iâm starting to sour on lemmy too because thereâs basically nothing here of interest to me anymore.
Well said. Iâm feeling this way too.
Confirmed that the ones that don't block hexbear and lemmygrad.ml are significantly worse:-).
I like !lemmybewholesome@lemmy.world, but there's less than a post a day to it. At some point it's up to us to build what we want to see in the world, which is harder when there are fewer of us - so if becomes a cache-22 where we need more people to make new content but we would need more content to attract new people.
And apparently mod tools here are inadequate, though hopefully improving.
Seems to me most people in that thread seems relatively open minded? The people dismissing Lemmy completely appears to be downvoted, and people seem to have a nuanced understanding that it's a better platform in theory but sadly less active.
I'm sure they're right. I'm a slow person who thinks there's plenty of activity over here, but if you're used to the adrenaline of Reddit it must feel a little small town-y.
To be honest except on things like sports and politics, reddit kind of feels like a ghosttown too. So many posts with huge amounts of upvotes and like 2 bot generated comments. The power commenter types seem to have left after the exodus and been replaced by lots of people who scroll and like but donât really venture much into comments.
As someone who used to be vehemently anti-lemmy, itâs a few different reasons.
Itâs something new. Honestly is as simple as that. Most redditors are straight up threatened by new features, new looks, new anything. New Reddit is an example of that. To be fair it is hideous but itâs also drastically underused according to reddits own metrics. This just stays consistently with everything. People prefer old subs to new, prefer old users to new, old memes to new. Why? Dunno. Could be as simple as just that they know it so itâs comforting.
The propaganda that reddit put up against Lemmy was pretty insane. The first few mini-migrations set people up with weird expectations and a lot of them bounced back to reddit with weird notions. Some of it was based on shitty admins or shitty servers (cough lemmy.ml cough) but other things seemed to be almost coordinated against Lemmy. By the time that the big migration from Reddit killing off third party apps/API use a lot of people had heard one or two things and just started spreading it. Redditors often donât source material and just kinda spread rumors or âfeelingsâ or upvote one idiot who seems like he knows what heâs talking about while blatantly lying. This has never gone away. The same idiots keep whining and being dismissive.
Redditors are hateful. Not purely hateful people or anything but the atmosphere encourages hate and division. I still browse reddit occasionally and Iâll check the comments out about a post. Itâs always so bitter and angry, snapping out at one another. When every crab in the bucket is pulling you down, you get stuck in that habit too. Until you break free of reddit you donât realize just how bitter itâs making you. Lemmy doesnât have those vibes and it can be really off putting to someone still in that bitterness. Kindness and people getting along almost comes off as stupid and naive so you just kinda dismiss the entirety of Lemmy as a whole.
This is a conspiracy but Iâm positive that Reddit admins are purging a lot of references to Lemmy that donât show the site in a positive light. When the API shit was happening people kept pointing out that certain communities that were supportive of Lemmy suddenly got locked behind a NSFW curtain that forced users to be logged in to read the community. A lot of people talked about how certain posts and stuff were being removed, especially ones critical of Spez. I donât think they stopped that campaign and I think they still try to demonize the hell out of Lemmy. Could be because China has a significant hand in reddit now or it could be because Spez has a tiny dick and a tinier ego. Dunno. But I think theyâre weighting the scales.
Out of curiosity, what made you change your mind and give it a chance? Any breaking point on Reddit's side, or just boredom or a sense of adventure?
In regular migration studies there's always talk of puah and pull factores; reasons for wanting to leave where you are, and reasons for wanting to go to the destination. While I personally like it here, I guess we are currently depending more on push factors than pull factors to attract people from Reddit.
Star Trek.
Itâs not even remotely a surprise to anyone that Iâm a dedicated Trekkie and have been for quite some time. Also not much of a surprise to those aware of the Trek fandom that sometimes it can be kinda bitter towards shows that donât fit a certain trend. I happened to like one of those shows and was looking for a place to talk where it wasnât just constantly being bitched about. I was just googling around and found Startrek.website so I set up an account on lemmy.world to watch stuff over there for a couple months before eventually joining that instance. My original account still exists on lemmy.world and itâs fairly early in the run of a lot of things. Iâve also gotten a few messages to that account simply because itâs a single first name that other people wanted.
Anyway I started posting Trek memes to Risa and it went overboard. Before I realized people were making memes about me and I just sort of stuck around. Startrek.website showed itâs administrators to be flagrantly abusive of not only their power but also of just people so I set up Stamets on this instance. Rest is history.
Reddit 100% was censoring and shadow banning any kbin or lemmy mentions.
I wouldnât even be surprised if reddit actively promoted or even creates negative comments. There was a precedent of people abandoning Digg so they were clearly very aware and afraid.
At the end of the day itâs impossible to tell with these incredibly opaque networks. Itâs even hard to confirm comment visibility as Reddit employs data fudging and shadow banning.
Just another reminder that nothing any closed source social media says should be trusted, ever.
You got that wrong. That was a measure taken by these communities to demonetize reddit. Reddit doesnât put ads on NSFW subs. Any profile that posts on an NSFW sub also gets their profile switched to NSFW afaik. Moderators got banned for these NSFW tags.
r/PixelDungeon is the only sub that Iâm aware of that completely moved to lemmy. Withe the main mod and developer of the most popular fork moving to lemmy. The sub is still open, but it has a âbookmarkâ called âLemmyâ and a âlinkâ called âLemmy Communityâ that directly links to the lemmy community. The sub is still open and automod responded to any new post that the sub moved to lemmy ⌠at least for a year or so, it doesnât post that any more.
And there are some obvious down sides. To my knowledge lemmy has not implemented flairs or post tags, which get used excessively by some communities to categories and sort their content. !pixeldungeon@lemmy.world fell back to putting text tags into titles like â[DEV]â and â[OC]â and then use the search for this. But that is merely a work around. The sidebar links to these searches, but since instance-relative links are not a thing they are fixed links to lemmy.world.
The search itself is still inconvenient, because you can just âsearch this communityâ. You always have to explicitly select a community to search it and have to enter the search term before selecting the community. Edit: thatâs of course only true for the front-end (lemmy-ui) I use, dunno if all have that issue
I doubt regular end users will ever get warm with distributed federative networks. A lot of people already seem struggle with email. All tend to flock to a few big instances. For lemmy you also need some basic awareness of these systems. You canât find everything and to expect that will always go wrong since you only search what your instance knows and never for everything. There are great projects like lemmyverse, but you need to know about them. People who donât know about them will either just not find the communities they are looking for or theyâll start duplicate communities. The problem of not finding something is smaller on big instances but also more fatal, because their duplicate communities will displace the ones that were started on smaller instances but did not federate well yet.
And everything, the development and hosting, is solely carried on the shoulders of a few volunteers. That will always result in instances popping up and disappearing over time, with development speed varying depending on interest and free time the developers have.
The biggest selling point is not to replace reddit but to be connected with the rest of the activitypub fediverse. That you can see peertube channels as communities here. That mastodon users can comment on lemmy posts eggcetera
No, I do not have it wrong.
There was a protest to mark things NSFW, correct, but what Iâm talking about was something else. Kbin and Lemmy communities were marked in such a way that it was impossible to look at unless logged in. While logged in it wasnât marked as NSFW. It also wasnât a choice of the subreddit moderators. They were blocked by reddit admin themselves to force people to be logged in to see information on how to transfer to Lemmy.
Main reason is people are too lazy to change their ways and donât want to feel like theyâve been making the wrong choice all along.
We are having a great time over here in the Fediverse, and they are jealous.
So we will continue to have a blast, just to piss them off.
The feel of Lemmy communities is a little different than Reddit, even if the software features are mostly analogous and there are many Redditisms used.
Your average commentor/poster will stand out more in a small community, thereâs less of being able to post and then slink away.
People have gotten used to a lot more comforting features of modern Reddit, Lemmy in both the users and in the software has more of a âReddit 10-15 years agoâ feel to it.
mbin is a bit less hostile (native reddit) looking than lemmy
Grumpy young boomers
Get off my internet!
The biggest point is tankies and the toxic âleftâ people here and that Lemmy has some major problems regarding stability and the ability to effectively moderate.
Another point is that Lemmy has in may places worse moderation than reddit.
Yeah there are clearly some toxic people who wonât tolerate anything different than them. They can be leftists or rightists who are gonna hate you for whatever reason.
I didnât have this feeling on reddit to be honest.
And itâs a shame because Iâm censoring myself because of this on some subject where I could bring another point of view.
The people you are probably referring to exist on like, two instances. Everybody always ends up on the ".ml" ones for their first experience and is immediately horrified by the hardcore tankie content. That's because those specific instances are run by actual Marxist-Leninists.
Well it happened to me mostly in technology communities where my job as a police man in a country without too much corruption was giving me a different point of view than people who were seeing a corrupt government spying on them all the time.
I havenât seen a single ârightâ person on Lemmy, except when you count the Stalinists as right (wich they kinda are)
And I hate that there are so many of them.
Yeah to be honest itâs true that Iâve only seen lefties. Iâm sometimes on the left side and sometimes on the right side, but itâs crazy how you canât really express an opinion without being insulted or other thingsâŚ
You canât say anything without people hating on you. Iâm a actual social Democrat and therefore the worst enemy of tankies and Stalinists.
I donât care what they say about me, I care when they are in charge of anything and ban people for other opinions, wich happens a lot.
yet this is exactly what the fediverse was designed to work around. giving the power back to the users. when .ml decides to block a bunch of shit due to butt-hurt mods, communities can be moved elsewhere without everyone having to make new accounts.
These many places tend to be the biggest and most popular placesâŚ
agreed that we need to work on scaling out horizontally. i think that ironically poor moderation will help with this over time. it took reddit 20 years to get where it is.
Lemmy instances are a pain in the ass to keep working, most people with a life wonât do that and people without a life are usually extremists.
sounds like a lot of conjecture to me. i think there is hope in groups owning, operating and funding their own instances. software platforms will get better over time. funding pathways will get better over time.
i dont think we should just toss our hands up and say 'nope, too hard. only jerks need apply'
I can conjecture some things, though I canât be 100% sure on either:
First, maybe itâs fanatics/fanboys that donât like competition making their platform less relevant. Second, itâs paid actors complaining. Third, itâs robot accounts making posts. Fourth, as proposed in the OP, people are getting the wrong impression due to noisy and problematic bubbles. Fifth, people being scared of leaving their comfort zone. Sixth, a mix of either some or all the previous possibilities.
And seven, seven, n-n-n-n-no tomorrow
The higher-score comments there donât seem to be particularly hostile to Lemmy. They talk about legitimate concerns like whether Lemmy as it exists now could deal with a Reddit-size volume of data, The top comment at this time speaks favorably of !selfhosted@lemmy.world.
Of course people who are still using Reddit are more likely to view Reddit as favorable or acceptable and alternatives as problematic, or not quite there yet. Iâm actively Fediverse-first in my use of social media, but I still end up on Reddit quite a bit for niche interests because thatâs where the most people are.
its a chicken and egg thing. the fediverse cant scale if we arent pressured to fix scaling issues. we need users to highlight the pain points so we can fix things that allow those users.
Number 1 comment is
If r/selfhosted has to rely on reddit as it canât be fucked selfhosting, what chance do other subs have.
I have found Lemmy selfhosted communities excellent, they are not a large as Reddit but there are plenty knowledgeable people, often seflhosting their own little reddit.
The irony of a self hosted community refusing to self hostâŚ
Honestly back during the API fiasco I was honestly expecting the mods their to make their own instance together. The fact they didnât blew me away
Lemmy has a toxic puddle problem. If your first experience with Lemmy is sauntering into a community and getting chased out for not agreeing with someone hard enough, something like that, youâll probably just go back to Reddit and say âthat place is full of whack jobsâ.
And the default sort, kinda hard to dodge
My experience is a little better with comments sorted by âtopâ instead of âactiveâ. âactiveâ seems to promote controversial comments because they get the most replies.
What is the default sort on Lemmy.World btw - is it Local, or All?
For me without an account, it is All. Which means that they'll see all the tankie stuff, and most will immediately want to nope out (I'm currently sitting at 100% of every person I've ever told about Lemmy irl).
<img alt="img" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/c64eae4d-6c7b-48d8-8523-969f04e6c2ad.jpeg?format=webp">
On the bright side, PieFed adds a warning label to messages on communities located on Beehaw (about their differences in moderation policies), and surely could do the same for lemmy.ml - in fact I saw such a message this morning (sth sth warning do not criticize China or Russia or you are likely to be banned - quite neutrally yet helpfully worded, very much to the point), though now can't seem to reproduce, so perhaps it's in testing.
I saw that on ML you might get banned for stuff like calling Xi Jinping a Winnie. But not for an opinion. Especially about Russia.
Could you please tell more about Beehawâs âmoderation differencesâ?
Beehaw is a bit fragile. Theyâll remove any comment they donât like if it offends their current sensibilities.
I am not certain I can explain it, but for one thing they have defederated from two of the largest instances including Lemmy.World, bc they wanted a narrower range of experiences yet the mod tools would not allow them to keep up with vetting the flood of content from them and thus their userbase would have been "exposed" to it.
The mantra is "be nice", but I also saw people discussing literally murder of "others" who they disagreed with, like they voted the wrong way, or didn't vote despite being in a deep blue USA state or something. So I have no idea of what the criteria really is.
In any case, people report being banned from there at the drop of a hat, bc their mods are quite zealous. Which can be quite shocking to someone coming from a place that has significantly looser moderation practices.
So anyway the label I see for a post hosted on a Beehaw community says:
And then that link goes to Beehaw's own description of their own policies. I love this approach! It's quite friendly - it allows Beehaw to speak for itself, and rather than penalize the instance for being different, yet it addresses the interface between it vs. the wider Fediverse that is more used to content such as appears on Lemmy.World, which again has significantly looser standards (due in large part to severe lack of moderation efforts, which in turn relates to lack of development of tools that mods seem to consider sufficient).
Why is that tankie?
That post criticizes âany western leaderâ talking about human rights and shows photos of bombing gaza below it, if I interpret it correctly. It certainly is whataboutism, but I donât see how it is directly used to justify anything else, even though that might be thought behind it and be more clear after reading more posts of that person. Though Iâd rather use the Guantanamo Bay detention camp, since thatâs a more direct human rights violation than supplying Israel with money, weapons and defense support.
I never said that that image proves that the originator is a tankie. For one, such content turns people away from the Fediverse, regardless if offered by a conservative, a leftist, a tankie, or whoever. Mainly why I included it is that it is an example of content offered on an instance known to have tankies. See e.g. https://feddit.nl/post/16246531.
What "makes" them a "tankie" instance is that they literally deny that the Tiennamen Square massacre involved any fatalities (and ban anyone from every community on Lemmy.ml, even ones that you've never posted or commented in) if you say otherwise. They are really quite open about it too - it definitely is no secret, though you won't see it immediately upon looking at the sidebar for the instance, so usually people from the Western world (which they seem to be so against in many of their more politically aligned communities) have to discover that fact on their own, then get disappointed (especially those considering themselves liberal and therefore a bit "left-leaning", not knowing just how far left the scale really goes, i.e. nearly every American is fairly right-leaning, when using the global rather than USA scale).
But more generally, if that instance wants to make fun of the West, particularly Americans, that's fine - do their thing - but then why is it so shocking when Americans get offended by that? All the more so when reading the sidebar of such places as e.g. Lemmy.World and Lemmy.ca, but then the content federated from Lemmy.ml's communities work according to an entirely different set of rules.
As we try to entice people over here from Reddit, it's confusing to them to have all these conflicting sets of rules and behaviors - e.g. in some instances people are allowed to behave as trolls, even encouraged to do so apparently by their admins, but then they also come out and do it here as well, where it is a violation of the rules.
Anyway, again, I'm not using that image to try to prove tankieness - that's already been established. This is content from tankies, as the person I replied to said "that place is full of whack jobs", and this whataboutism seemed a kind of illustration of that, not proof.
Itâs very hard to convince people that fedi is a healthy place when the default servers are incredibly toxic. I wish they would at least advertise it as such, maybe hide the default from the number one spot. There are several servers up there that accept users that are way more chill.
Also for new selfhosters making it easier to say âthese are some problem instances that are commonly blocked, if you want to start out with themâ. I know that starts a new problem of âbut then who decidesâ and it causes more splintering, but for a lot of posters itâs overwhelming the firehouse of vitriol that comes in at first.
just wanted to drop that for the selfhosters there is fediseer.com which provides an API (which makes getting a crowdsourced and up to date whitelist easy)
But https://gui.fediseer.com/instances/detail/lemmy.ml received 15 endorsements, from some major well-known/top instances, with such kind words as "popular with our users", and one going so far as to state "friendly staff; well moderated" - WELL MODERATED!? Tbf it did receive a single censure, and 2 hesitations (from places that I've never heard of before).
I was not here prior to the Rexodus - maybe it was (more) true then? Even if so, that info seems out of date. And then even if it is the singular instance for which that is true, that is still a fairly major deviation - e.g. the graphic that I showed in my comment above this was shared to both lemmygrad.ml and lemmy.ml, while others are shared also with hexbear.net. Banning lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net thereby helps but does not eliminate the "leak" that occurs when that identical content spreads out to the entire Fediverse via lemmy.ml.
e.g. the #1 rule on https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/ states to not perform "Attacks on users or groups", though I constantly see anti-Western nation attack wording and graphics posted on those 3 (maybe now after the USA elections it will suddenly cease, having already served its purpose?). For Lemmy.World to act as a delivery vector for that content, despite how it violates their ToS - how is that all that much different from allowing CSAM to spread, which likewise did not originate from Lemmy.World, yet if the latter chooses to allow itself to be the method of delivery to all of its users...?
Well anyway, thank you for your helpful addition of the link. Though I think there is more to the story as I outlined here.
Take a step back, you sound ridiculous. CSAM is not the same AT ALL as someone criticizing the west for letting Israel bomb the shit out of Gaza. If you are used to reddit, you are used to more conservative views. You have never experienced views that would be considered radical leftist. I am from the US, the republican and democrat parties are very conservative. Reddit only deals with these two partiesâ views for the most part. I found nothing wrong with the screenshot you took. There is no leak that needs to be plugged, try experiencing more views to broaden your horizon. There is nothing wrong with saying the US is a fascist hellhole and is complicit in the genocide of Palestinians. Some of Europe is also heading that way too. It is not against TOS to point that out. You are being a âlibâ which is really just saying you are being a reactionary. The big three you hate so much are not afraid of telling you when you have reactionary views and how dumb they are, if you want someone banned for being mean to you then go to beehaw, it is against their rules to say anything that doesnât coddle you.
*ARE* we a healthy service though? Setting aside how any social media can be addictive, Lemmy in particular is incredibly toxic. It can be MADE into something that is far more tolerable, but it is not that way fresh out of the box, for a new user - particularly a mainstream one - who does not know what they are doing, e.g. how to block, what an "instance" even is (neither Reddit nor X has an equivalent), etc.
Blaze, when he preaches about the benefits of Lemmy on Reddit to entice new users to come here, mostly tells people to choose lemm.ee, and even specifically mentions the tankie issue for those who are worried about it, specifically regarding lemmy.ml. However, lemm.ee does not block e.g. hexbear.net's ChapoTrapHouse, nor does it block even the incredibly offensive lemmygrad.ml. I almost left the Fediverse entirely when I commented in each of those, and received WEEKS and WEEKS of replies (EACH) to what I considered an innocuous comment (e.g. "at least Biden lowered gas prices, which is not nothing imho?") - I could do nothing (that I knew of) to halt it. Nor, having arrived in them via All, did I have the first inkling of what those communities were all about, or those instances. I did not consent to that! Having read the rules of e.g. Lemmy.World, and coming as I had from Kbin.social, I was not expecting anything remotely close to... THAT!?!?!
So I understand why my irl friends have all absolutely refused to use Lemmy, and moreover give me a dirty look for even having suggested it. It's nasty. *WE* (who use Linux btw) know how to manage software, and can make it into something beautiful. But a day-1 noob with a guest or fresh account, trying to compare this place to Reddit, will not likely stick around long enough to see what we do.
As for the rest, I most definitely get what you are saying, and there are a couple of recent(-ish) posts in !newtolemmy@lemmy.ca that cover those topics in more detail, if you want!:-)
hm, maybe lemmy needs the feature to disable response notifications for specific posts or threads. Though thatâs the less problematic scenario. The biggest issue in federated networks is when somebody is determined to stalk and pester you, though I havenât heard of that happening here so far. But you could comment under each and every post of another user, since you can see all posts. And there is no way to stop that if they are persistent as they can just create a new account on a new instance anytime they get blocked or banned.
Oh I've seen it - some people receiving downvotes between replying to me and me seeing their content, which I thought was odd so I checked out their post history and literally everything had been downvoted. Obviously that's a sort of troll attack (except one case where the person said that they were doing it to themselves, so as to imprint upon themselves how worthless those scores really are). Admins can see such and ban accounts doing it, but some instances allow automated signups so there can be an unlimited number of accounts that would need banning though, if someone were determined enough to keep making new ones.
But that's not what drove my irl friends away - that was content that e.g. made fun of the Western world & society, and which they considered "extremist", and did not want to see so they left. And as others have noted, if you remove politics and Linux, then other than Star Trek what else do we even have here?
A community, that's what. But that takes awhile to see, yet they were already gone.
Yeah whatever, thatâs a feature. Reddit became worse once it became a safe place for conservatives and center-right liberals to gather.
Conservative, TheDonald, KiA, red pill, et. all made Reddit worse.
I donât want a second Reddit. Can better avoid eternal September issues if they self select to fuck off
But I guess thatâs what .world is for.
A lot of communities on Lemmy have a âscene kidâ subculture and they will just harass people right off the platform for not being true enough to the cause, despite being for the cause.
You got a bunch of raindrops. They want to become a hurricane. They simply need a warm breeze but shit blows sideways instead. The corners of Lemmy where movements could be happening are basically mosh pits
Iâm not trying to argue with you or correct you or anything, just pointing out why this is bad, how it shouldnât be as it is, but itâs on deaf ears to the people Iâm lamenting about. And youâre correct, a 2nd Reddit would suck, but Lemmy could be better if those people were being better.
If thereâs anything anyone mad about anything in the world should know, by know, donât attack people on the same team, welcome them in
I donât quite understand your point. Do you maybe have some examples to understand better?
I actually blocked most of those groups but one was some climate community on another instance. There was a post where someone asked what they could do personally to help prevent climate change, and it was full of political theory as a response.
Someone said they actively boycott Starbucks because the CEO flies a jet in order to commute to Seattle to California, and if the government wonât do anything they felt like the least they can do is just commit to never giving them and their lobbyists a single penny ever again.
And they were downvoted to like -20 and had a dozen people attacking them over shifting the blame from the corporations to the working class by framing it in such a way that the working class should have any responsibility for the actions of the corporation. It was like watching a bunch of picketers calling someone a scab.
And Iâm just reading it like âwhat the fuck guys, youâre sitting around discussing political strategies that have so far done absolutely nothing, theyâre doing something, they have a point, the lobbyists make the laws, so defunding the lobbyists does make a lot of sense. Heâs flying in a jet to work because people give him money, helllLLLOOOooo.â
Someone even went so far as to argue that a lot of people need to go to Starbucks because they might need a quiet space to study or hang out, so I jumped in pointing out that most municipalities have a library at the minimum, and people were fine before coffee shops were everywhere, and I got downvoted and jumped on by half a dozen people for not understanding the plight of others.
Homeless people need somewhere to go, so Iâm an asshole for suggesting that other people could go to Starbucks less? Beats the hell out of me
In some climate forum, for no reason other than to win a stupid internet argument over the responsibility of emissions, everyone began defending the necessity of Starbucks of all things. Seriously. And at the same time, consumers shouldnât have to endure hardships for the climate because they should instead focus on affecting policy, in order for places like Starbucks to change, because theyâre fucking horrible. In my mind I was just like âwell are corporations good or bad, or at the moment are they just convenient as both in order to use that person as a punching bag?â but noped right out.
It was basically a ratâs nest of tangled up incongruent statements that all led back to âfuck that person for saying they make a very small effort to do something towards a corporation as opposed to attempting to reshape politicsâ
So yeah, shit like that.
Maybe a simple âwhile I disagree with A due to B, it does have some merit because of C. But in my opinion I think D is more effective, and if youâd like to learn more about D, here are some resources! :)â
Iâd argue that at this point, sticking to the collective vs individual dichotomy of climate attribution and action potential is climate action delayist. When your argument relies you or your group intentionally doing absolutely nothing to combat climate change, you donât really have climate change in mind.
Leftism sometimes cares more about class than its very foundation, the environment, to understand why there is a problem with blame-shifting.
Iâve seen this in a similar fashion in relationship advice forums: Commenters not engaging with the issue or person, but knee-jerk reacting with advising instant breakup.
Thatâs also reddit thoâŚ
Could be their total intolerance for opposing views, don't see that on Reddit but it's rampant on Lemmy.
I havenât been on reddit for over a year, but I cannot imagine that topics like say atheism donât polarise. What makes you think it is the case?
@5714 But there because it's divided into groups, those of us not interested in atheism never even look at it.
A good example of this is LiPoly, a twit on a Lemmy instance, downvotes every post I make.
What do you expect from a bunch of lazy T_D chuds, bots, and n00bz
Ha haaaa! Right? Up top!
1) the post already said why:
2) further compounded by issues such as (a) overall lack of moderation, which further depends on (b) better development of moderation tools, and (c) guides explaining how things work, bc it can be fairly confusing, e.g.:
Though someone answered (I think incorrectly):
Interestingly, from my old instance discuss online, I see no hits at all to that term among community names - https://discuss.online/search?q=selfhosted&type=Communities&listingType=Local - meaning that nobody from that instance has subscribed to it yet.
Which is why things like Categories of Communities (already fully functional on PieFed) are so helpful to guide people to what they may be looking for.
3) And I haven't even begun on the whole tankies connotation of moving here.
No - apparently not, it's only clear to you, not them, for all the reasons listed above and likely more besides. We would have to build it first, before they will come... and even then I would expect a long delay. In the meantime, Lemmy MAUs (Monthly Active Users) are actively declining, whether they are returning their traffic to Reddit or not.
Besides other factors mentioned in this thread, thereâs also
Older userbase makes this place a lot more useful, outside of politcs and news subs you are dealing with who can provide good information, ie how reddit used to work.
Drama has its place... it is provocative and it gets people going... we need more engagement! We are deff getting there too, meme subs were spamming all 1 year ago, now there is enough threads to keep a reader busy without fluff memes.
I agree with you that both things have their upsides; and frankly, I donât even think that we should be pandering to the immigration leftover wallowing in Reddit. Growth is good, but growth should never come at the expense of the community that youâre trying to grow.
However I feel like those points help to explain why the âlol lmaoâ crowds hate this place.
@lvxferre @sunzu2 On the other hand, if you banish all opposing views all you're left with is an echo chamber and stagnation, no progress.
I would never support banish anyone, just to be clear. I know that sentiment is popular around here and reddit.
Everyone within reason should be able to express themselves here that's entire point of fediverse being the front page of the internet, a proper one!
Younger folk do seem to self select out of place that won't an echo chamber but that ain't a young folk thing..
Just check politics on lemmy.world đ¤Ą
My concerns about the âimmigration leftoverâ is not their opposing views, but their behaviour. I donât want to deal with the âwaaah the world revolves around my belly, why are you too stupid to understand that?â crowds and their incessant whining.
@lvxferre Yes bad behaviors are on all sides, how do we reign in that human tendency towards self justification and aggression and get to the point where we can discuss or even argue if we must, facts and ideas, based upon their merits alone without so much emotional overtone?
Speaking from a third-world country, there are 2 main weaknesses the fediverse has for us:
There used to be a mexican instance called Mujico, but they were forced to use a whitelist by constant troll attacks⌠But they also federated with grad so I canât feel bad about it. I donât know if it still exists but the last time I checked it had zero activity.
No idea, quit Reddit over a year ago for fedia/lemmy. Never used x/twitter either, i use mastodon.
I am pretty sure most people are here for idealogical reasons so lack of things is a nothing burger for them.
Normies only care about ease of use and network effect. Until fediverse brings usability, we aint even compete for the network.
Normie here, Lemmy is pretty easy to use imo. I think the transition is happening now kinda like the Internet in the 90s or online dating in the 10âs.
Ofc I just got here and Iâm using Voyager.
A theory I have is that everyone who hates reddit eventually left leaving the milk bags brains. I was mod of r/mapporncirclejerk and left when I saw my mod queue get exponentially worse. My friend told me it was because the decent people left for Lemmy.
Now Iâm mod of !cartographyanarchy@lemm.ee and itâs sooooo much easier.
I used to lurk, thank you for your service đŤĄ
Idk I find Lemmy easier to use. I go to Lemmy site -> I use site
I go to reddit -> I get asked to turn of my VPN -> get asked to login -> get asked to download mobile app -> accept cookies -> I finally use site.
Damn reddit is so much easier
Yes đ¸
secondary reason why i left reddit, they don't respect a person who respects him or her self... not long after i learned that's corpo's MO and that's how i become radicalized linux enjoyer haha
@secret300 @sunzu2 Odd, I just use it from Firefox on my desktop. It does want me to accept cookies, that is how websites maintain a login session since otherwise http is a stateless protocol.
well you need an account to shit post tho...
so you need to log in
if you want to login you will get in VPN bullshit or your browser is hardened. if they can't track you, they essentially don't want you to use their slopware.
but yes, you can read reddit old, that's what people should use when they do research IMHO
@sunzu2 @secret300 @Yingwu Unfortunately, some people, if not held accountable, abuse things and other people.
Because people off Reddit hate everything that its not reddit
People on Reddit. Weâre the people off Reddit :)
I was a redditor for 13 years, I now hate reddit. There is hope
We arenât Russian bots?
Anyone still left on Reddit is either too ignorant about the alternatives to Reddit to even have an opinion or is actively trying to keep people on Reddit for Reddit.
I left reddit after a cyberbully situation because I defended a nonbinary person in a post in the sega dreamcast subreddit.
.
Interesting choice of wordsâŚ
@Kolanaki @Nexy Just conjecture, I'm not following that particular subredit but I can see even considering it well this is the difference between lemmy and reddit demonstrated, NO TOLERANCE FOR OPPOSING VIEWS.
Gender is not inherently sexual, youâre the one making this weird.
@ayyy Need to look up the term gender dysphoria in the DSM. Stop mutilating children so that they have no reproductive potential as adults.
What the fuck are you even talking about
@ayyy If you're that uninformed then you are not qualified to speak of gender.
@ayyy Sorry you disagree, but fact remains you can't redefine language to mean whatever suits your agenda.
@Kolanaki @Nexy youtube.com/watch?v=Q7nRZqBOCyâŚ
Almost everyone in the linked Reddit post seems to be supportive of Lemmy, or even Lemmy users. Even the people who tried it and stopped seem generally warm to the idea and just think it needs polish.
Iâd say that this comment section is way more vitriolic than that one lol
@PeriodicallyPedantic @Yingwu This is what I meant by Reddit being more tolerant of opposing views than lemmy.
.
I am getting to know that lemmy.ml guys are bad, so do you all avoid subbing to lemmy.ml communities? I have bunch of their communities subbed so not sure if I should move away or not.
@zerozaku @Yingwu It's new. I saw a similar phenomena with Mastodon in it's inception but as the userbase grew a more balanced narrative emerged.
Most lemmy.ml users and communities are perfectly fine. I didnt notice a higher number of problematic users from ml than from other instances mine is federated to. I think hexbear and lemmygrad and a bunch of nazi instances are defederated.
@Saleh @zerozaku Yes if you agree with them an echo chamber is comfortable, but it provides no path to progress.
.ml is mostly a linux-centric hub. anything else is just a distraction
That was the first instance out there, so amany early adopter communities are hosted there. Iâve blocked a handful problematic users and all the communist stuff and other topics I donât agree with or care about, but by and large itâs alright.
Hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml are instances Iâve blocked altogether.
For some reason after reading this (because Iâm very new to Lemmy), your post made me feel like that squiggly thing / slime inside the box that wanted freedom, then the moment it takes a step outside, got punched back in and now is happily being inside the box, even if its cramped.
I think it was a meme too.
Yeah, but I do feel that way (after taking a look there)
Many people left lemmy.ml for that reason. Some of us even left Lemmy altogether - e.g. I'm writing this to you from PieFed, which allows blocking of all users from Lemmy.ml (Lemmy itself does not support that - its "instance blocking" only stops communities from an instance, but not users).
I block all .ml communities that pop up on my feed. Somewhere between 200-300 on my blocklist by now (not all exclusively from .ml of course, but most of them).
Why not block the entire instance in your settings?
Because that isn't an option.
It is. Go into your account settings -> blocks and at the bottom is a section for blocking instances.
Iâve got Lemmy.ml in there. Youâll still see comments from their users and posts from users in other communities but you shouldnât see any of their communities in your feed.
It's not. I'm not using Lemmy.
Ah right fair enough.
Edit: sorry, I intended this to the person you were responding to. I'll send it on to them, but leave it here in case you want to know as well, with this message explaining how strange it is that I would be responding to you who is not on Mbin:-P.
Actually it is. I don't have an Mbin account but supposedly if you go to https://fedia.io/d/lemmy.ml then you should be able to accomplish it from there. It's quite hidden though, isn't it!?:-P More details in this post: https://piefed.social/post/307636.
I'd be interested to hear how it works out for you - like on PieFed if you do that, it blocks the users but not the communities, and in Lemmy it blocks communities but not users. I don't know what it will do for you, beyond blocking users - but like, is it similar to a full defederation in blocking the communities as well?
Actually it is. I don't have an Mbin account but supposedly if you go to https://fedia.io/d/lemmy.ml then you should be able to accomplish it from there. It's quite hidden though, isn't it!?:-P More details in this post: https://piefed.social/post/307636.
I'd be interested to hear how it works out for you - like on PieFed if you do that, it blocks the users but not the communities, and in Lemmy it blocks communities but not users. I don't know what it will do for you, beyond blocking users - but like, is it similar to a full defederation in blocking the communities as well?
No, that just blocks direct links to said instances. So it basically does nothing.
That... makes no sense to me.
This has been discussed with the devs & admins. You're basically just opening and blocking the domain itself. Look at the threads on that page. They are all .ml leading links, but posted in various other instances that are not actually .ml. So they're not an accumulation of actual .ml communities and their content, but content that is posted wherever that links towards .ml. It's like those domain filters on some websites (like Reddit IIRC) that you can click on to get a list of all submissions from that domain, like a news site for example, except only within the realms of the fediverse.
Ah, so URL link-type posts pointing to that domain. Have you ever tried it though - might it also block users or communities from that instance as well, even if it isn't obvious just from glancing at that page?
I would try it myself but I don't have an account on any Mbin instance. But if you are positive that it does not *also* block users - as multiple people kept telling me - then I need to remove that wording from my post telling people that Mbin can do that.
Yes, it's blocked pretty much since before I even switched from kbin.social to fedia.io. It does block neither the instance nor the users from there, hence why I have such a huge blocklist of communities. I block them as they pop up on my feed.
Sorry to hear that. It sounds like you would have to switch to PieFed (which can do it but the UI isn't as polished, plus then it can't also read content from Mastodon) or use an app (which I thought none were available that worked for Mbin?), or as you say put in the effort for every single community and annoying user who is trying to push their agenda.
On the bright side, you've done it now so henceforth it is merely maintenance:-).
Thanks for letting me know.
There's one app but I don't use it as it do not have a compact view, only cards, and that would not replace anything on the desktop either. PieFed is about as bad as Lemmy imo. There is an open feature request for this on Github though, so hopefully it's just a matter of time.
PieFed is odd in both having several features that Lemmy lacks - categories of communities, tags on posts, and most pertinent here, the ability to truly block all users from a specified instance without requiring admin approval (which neither Lemmy nor apparently Mbin offers) - while at the same time lacking in several fundamentals, e.g. user tagging such as @openstars@piefed.social generates no notifications, and the UI is highly difficult to work with for posts with many comments and especially deeper chains that are nested (there is no option to go one level up, the only choice is to start all over at the top level, at which point browser searching does not work when the comments are buried too deeply, as is our very conversation here).
Yes there is a request for a PieFed API. In the browser the display options are a List, a Tile, and a Wide Tile. Off the top of my head, Lemmy seems the most polished - e.g. there are many apps providing choices for how to access it - followed by Mbin and PieFed that each offer different feature sets.
Some of the communities are fine, but make sure that you never EVER talk about politics in any way. And even then, why support such a place that has such a reputation? Most communities - though not all - have counterparts elsewhere. Judge for yourself, though it's nice to at least know that you have options:-).
In fairness, people outside of the instance may legit be receiving the brunt of their more extreme members coming out from the echo chamber and talking shit elsewhere. Then again, why choose to be *inside* that echo chamber, even if the toxicity is dialed way down?
And there are answers to that question that may depend on your circumstances: e.g. !Firefox@lemmy.ml is by far the largest Firefox community across the entire Fediverse. Also the ire of people inside Lemmy.ml is mostly directed at the primarily democratic capitalist Western society, but you may not feel impacted by such as much, as e.g. they make fun of the USA.
Only you know what will work best for you:-).
we are like their penal colony in revolt, maybe
So are we going with Lem-stralia, Lem-Rok Nor, or Lem-giers as our colony name?
Sunk Cost Fallacy
100%. Thatâs why it took me until the end of June to join Lemmy even though the blackout was on June 12th.
And I was already hating Reddit before the blackout. But FOMO made me stay and I feel bad about it.
Also; tribalism.
I completely forgot about this term. Sums up everything
I mean, read the post? They explain themselves pretty well there. Or are you linking it with hopes weâll brigade or something?
Lemmy hate comes down to two or three things: they donât like communists, or theyâre confused by it. Or theyâre waiting for it to be bigger.
That would require making a reddit account. Ew.
Iâm pretty sure most just donât know about us or donât care
Honestly, in my experience since I fully moved to Lemmy:
Almost any subreddit is more mature than any Lemmy channel.
This isnât just number of users (but thatâs a huge problem that has been mentioned here a lot), it means that the chance youâll run into a mod who is a tinpot despot is pretty high, and there is nothing you can do about it if youâre not willing to sit alone in a
ghost townalternate community.You can just post from a different lemmy instance.
That doesnât remove the toxic mod.
How many alts and sock puppets do you think the average person should have? This doesnât sound healthy