from SpaceCadet@feddit.nl to fediverse@lemmy.world on 05 Jun 16:21
https://feddit.nl/post/16246531
I feel like we need to talk about Lemmy’s massive tankie censorship problem. A lot of popular lemmy communities are hosted on lemmy.ml. It’s been well known for a while that the admins/mods of that instance have, let’s say, rather extremist and onesided political views. In short, they’re what’s colloquially referred to as tankies. This wouldn’t be much of an issue if they didn’t regularly abuse their admin/mod status to censor and silence people who dissent with their political beliefs and for example, post things critical of China, Russia, the USSR, socialism, …
As an example, there was a thread today about the anniversary of the Tiananmen Massacre. When I was reading it, there were mostly posts critical of China in the thread and some whataboutist/denialist replies critical of the USA and the west. In terms of votes, the posts critical of China were definitely getting the most support.
I posted a comment in this thread linking to “archive.ph/2020.07.12-074312/https://…/AIIbbPs” (WARNING: graphical content), which describes aspects of the atrocities that aren’t widely known even in the West, and supporting evidence. My comment was promptly removed for violating the “Be nice and civil” rule. When I looked back at the thread, I noticed that all posts critical of China had been removed while the whataboutist and denialist comments were left in place.
This is what the modlog of the instance looks like:
Definitely a trend there wouldn’t you say?
When I called them out on their one sided censorship, with a screenshot of the modlog above, I promptly received a community ban on all communities on lemmy.ml that I had ever participated in.
Proof:
So many of you will now probably think something like: “So what, it’s the fediverse, you can use another instance.”
The problem with this reasoning is that many of the popular communities are actually on lemmy.ml, and they’re not so easy to replace. I mean, in terms of content and engagement lemmy is already a pretty small place as it is. So it’s rather pointless sitting for example in /c/linux@some.random.other.instance.world where there’s nobody to discuss anything with.
I’m not sure if there’s a solution here, but I’d like to urge people to avoid lemmy.ml hosted communities in favor of communities on more reasonable instances.
threaded - newest
Did that months ago; defederated completely when they turned into Lemmygrad-lite. At first I missed some more active FOSS communities, but since then, others on different instances have become more active.
programming.devhas a lot of communities that overlap with some of the bigger FOSS ones on.mlso maybe check out what they’ve got.If there’s a community that only exists there, be the change you want to see: create it somewhere else, nurture it, and give it time to grow. You’re not the only one making this complaint about
.ml, and you probably won’t be the last.Related: I genuinely feel that
mlbeing the official or at least de-facto flagship instance is turning people away.Edit: Oh yeah. Didn’t recognize your username at first, but I was looking at the modlog the other day from my LW account, and saw a bunch of individual community bans from Dessalines and wondered what was up. Figured it was something exactly like this, and it was. Thanks for sharing.
Maybe we should open a thread on !fedigrow@lemm.ee about this
TIL that community existed. thanks!
What? I thought I pinged you there a while ago! Anyway, have a look, there should be some topics you might find interesting
May have been my LW account? I mostly use it for my mod role, but I’ll switch to it sometimes and browse all there to look for new communities I might like. Perhaps it was that account and I only interacted from there? (My memory is terrible these days 😆)
I don’t remember, you’ll see a post with a lot of pings, one of your accounts should be there 😄
Did you ping in the post body or comments? I learned a month or two ago from someone that mentions only generate a notification if they’re in the comments.
I made sure to ping in the comment for this reason. Actually now I’m curious, let me have a look
I got the one you just sent, but it was after I had resolved the community locally (and subscribed). Perhaps the mentions don’t work if they’re to a community the other person’s instance doesn’t know about?
To be honest I might have forgotten to ping you actually (maybe because you were less active for a bit and I basically mentioned people when I saw their posts in All?) but at least now it is solved!
Is there a way to search for/browse communities on a single instance?
You can in Tesseract, but AFAIK, that’s the only UI that lets you browse remote instances. Otherwise, you gotta go to it directly, browse communities, and copy/paste the URL into your instance and search for it.
I use lemmyverse.net
You can search for all communities of all instances, or click in a specific instance.
lemmyverse.net/instance/…/communities
Is it possible to see who is behind a mod action? I’ve figured something like world news on ml has some compromised fascist actors as mods but if it’s the main creator doing this then that’s crazy
There’s an instance level setting to hide moderator names from unauthenticated and/or non-mod users. They probably have that enabled. Those actions federate, though, so the mod names won’t be hidden if viewed from an instance that doesn’t hide the mod names.
Happy cakeday.
Shit, so it is (depending on tiemzone) lol Thanks!
It is actually tomorrow but there’s a bug that causes the cake symbol to appear a day early in the default UI, because 2024 is a leap year.
Ah, gotcha. Without doing the math, I assumed it was basing it on UTC or something.
Haha thank you for the info, I have been quite confused about this. At first I thought it was because it was already tomorrow in Australia, but then I checked a world clock and it wasn’t even close 😅
I had actually considered Lemmy before The Great Reddit Exodus. Lemmy.ml turned me off from that.
Now we have Kbin (you can make it, my love!) and Lemmy.world, and I feel much better.
Kbin, please come back to me
I… don’t think Kbin.social is going to make it. Even if it comes back, too much trust has been lost. Ernst should have stuck to just working on his coding project, not also administering his own instance, b/c that carries with it a certain level of “always-on” responsibility - e.g. I have unfortunately had to block Kbin.social lately, b/c nearly all (>>99%) of the spam that I currently see on the Fediverse was coming from the communities on it. Since I blocked it, I think I’ve seen like 1 single spam post for the past month.
So Kbin.social is turning people away too, for different reasons.
Mbin seems healthy though?:-)
I want to use Mbin, but all Mbin instances are federated with tankie instances, including hexbear.
And Mbin doesn’t make it easy to see user/community instance.
I gave up on the Kbin/Mbin style entirely - it sounds nice to Federate with both Lemmy and Mastodon, but I don’t like the interface.
Can you not do personal user instance blocks like you can in Lemmy as of v0.19.3 half a year ago? That would be an absolute deal breaker for me too. On Kbin.social though it was not an issue bc they were defederated at the instance level.
I really want Kbin to succeed, but Ernest seems to see the project as something he checks on once every few months and then ignores, but he still seems to want to be the only one who gets to make decisions. I get that he has stuff going on in his life, but the solution to all these problem starts with communicating and working with the community, not disappearing for months at a time and refusing to work with the people who try to help him. You just can’t have a successful project with an approach like that.
It should be noted that the (visibility of) community bans are a result of better enforcement of site bans in 0.19.4, which for now is implemented by sending out community bans for local communities when a user gets instance banned: github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/pull/4464
Prior to this, when a user got instance banned from .ml, they were also implicitly banned from .ml communities, but this was only known to the instance they were banned on. As a result, users were still able to post, comment, and vote on those communities, but it would be visible only on that user’s instance, not federated anywhere else. Visibility of this ban was exclusively on the banning instance’s modlog.
fyi @SpaceCadet@feddit.nl
Hello,
Are they? Most of the communities are rather on LW: lemmyverse.net/communities?order=active
!collapse@lemmy.ml is moving to !collapse@lemm.ee
Is there any community you need that doesn’t have a LW or another equivalent on another instance?
So long as any active communities on .ml end up on the front page, they will inevitably draw attention away from less censored spaces. An interesting one is !comics@lemmy.ml which tends to rise and fall in popularity in inverse proportion to !comicstrips@lemmy.world.
I agree that other communities have popped up to fill the same niches, so that’s step 1 and 2 done. Completely moving away from them, as OP intends, doesn’t seem like a plausible solution.
I’m sure it’s still doable.
Ironically, I’ve been trying to move a few communities away from LW (to avoid hyper-centralization), and it worked, for instance with !map_enthusiasts@sopuli.xyz (compared to the previous !mapporn@lemmy.world ), same with !casualconversation@lemm.ee which replaced !casualconversation@lemmy.world
Maybe we should bring attention to people about the lemmy.ml kind of moderation (and I guess this post does this quite well) so that they will avoid to post there in the future
It’s difficult to bring attention to censorship by way of active censorship of the censorship. I occasionally wonder whether folks on .ml understand that they’re being fed a very particularly catered experience. At least .ml isn’t the largest instance anymore, otherwise getting the word out would be nigh impossible.
And it was a nice bit of foresight to spread the load!
I was among reddit refugees a year ago and it took me a moment to notice what was going on ml and their communities were more significant in comparison to what we have today.
One of the reasons I’m on sopuli.xyz now is that it was one of the first reasonably big instances to defederate hexbear outright. Hesitance and outright hostility to defederate it from some instance admins was also worrying.
Sopuli is cool
World grew MASSIVELY around the time of the reddit mod strike.
In the time since? A lot of those communities are basically full of people who can’t stop talking about their ex while constantly re-posting everything they see there. And… the lemmy world admins made a few controversial decisions and their method of removing problem/“problem” users made a lot of us uncomfortable. Piss off an admin and your entire comment history is wiped in an instant and your ban reason is unverifiable.
Whereas ml already had communities that existed to talk about the topic of the community rather than what reddit was talking about.
Is it still the case? I found most the Reddit discussions happening on !reddit@lemmy.world nowadays
I’m not new to Lemmy but only just recently started being really active. Can you explain to this OOTL user (and perhaps others like me) that don’t know what went down with hexbear?
Welcome back!
Hexbear are known to be quite argumentative about politics, leading to most people blocking the instance overall at the user level.
That’s basically it, if you want more details you can have a look at the instance itself, you should get what I mean quite fast.
I regret looking haha but it was enlightening. Almost literally every single comment was someone angry about someone they’ve never met. It was like they were manifesting their ideal enemy in their comments to be angry at them.
Whew. Definitely avoiding that.
If you are familiar with the term tankie, hexbear is the china-fan tankie instance and lemmygrad is for those lusting after Stalin and the soviet union.
Lemmy.ml is a bit more low key about it, but equally authoritarian communist when it comes down to it, as evidenced by the op.
Especially the hexbear users have an extremely argumentative instance culture and will even brigade comment sections critical of the great leader, so most users and even instances block them outright.
Best to read it in their own words. That post really makes it clear how (in their own POV) other places should be linked to from hexbear solely for the purpose of making fun of them, and possibly to increase their engagement stats e.g. upvoting b/c otherwise it gets lonely just being on hexbear.net all by themselves. The only time they acknowledge the effects that THEY, the users on hexbear, have on OTHER communities is to state how fun it is to “[have the opportunity to] dunk on these lost [ones]”.
They are aware, and are even happy with how they are, and not only do they not mind being defederated, but they preemptively are defederating themselves from other places, as they said “As an admin team we have never wanted to prioritize growth”. They are an instance by and for people who enjoy making fun of others.
But don’t stop there: the comment section is where the real fun is at, and/or you can do the maths yourself too:-). e.g., they point out how the admins went to all the trouble to collect those votes, then threw them in the garbage and did the precise opposite of what the votes wanted and instead defederated anyway. Look at lemm.ee for instance at 41:4, that’s 91.1% for remaining federated and only 4 total votes, 8.9%, for defederation. aussie.zone was likewise 27 for vs. only 19 against, and programming.dev 27 for vs. 19 against - but they defederated from them all, despite how the (quite noticeable) majority of voters in each case indicated that they wanted them to remain federated.
In contrast, those other instances like programming.dev defederated from hexbear.net too, but only for purely technical reasons to avoid confusion by users not knowing the intricacies of how federation works - in their own words: “Weve added them to our blocklist as well so theres no one way conversations”.
TLDR: hexbear.net is not a “nice” place to visit - go there if you want, but like 4chan it’s not generally considered something that you want to stumble upon by accident, and it’s definitely not something that most people on the Fediverse want. I almost quit the Fediverse myself entirely after making the mistake of
posting(edit: commenting) there, but fortunately for me v0.19.3 came out and I could instead simply block hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml and now I enjoy being here:-).This is all so strange. I really appreciate the breakdown.
It sounds like they got the tyrannical administration they lust over in the politics related comments I’ve seen there so far, though! So, good for them!
Exactly - I’m 💯% okay with them living their best life, probably I shouldn’t be but I just am, so long as they don’t spill out and then infect others with their BS antics (which inevitably seems will happen when they are allowed to incubate like that, self- reinforcing that that behavior is “okay”).
But I am also concerned about new potential Fedizens - like is this a place that I can keep recommending to other human beings, or will they see that and just nope out? As I almost did myself bc all of it - lemmygrad.ml, hexbear.net, and apparently the admins at least of lemmy.ml - it’s just so fucking much for a new person to take. Someone who is versed enough in Federation matters can deal with it, but for those who cannot yet distinguish between what makes us great and those sources of toxicity horrible, it all will blend together into a big grey bucket of suck.
As ironically the comments to that post on hexbear I linked said too - they (the ones who weren’t outright leaving as a result of that decision) were calling for stricter moderation practices bc they were aware that the lack of that was giving hexbear a bad name. And now here we are too, saying similarly at the next higher level up of the Fediverse itself as a whole.
Great list! One thing I notice is wrong though: lemmy.ml is not merely not appearing among the top, most active ones (communities or instances), but I also don’t see it anywhere, even in the list of all instances when clicking Show All? So its true popularity is unknown to that list.
Edit: I see both hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml, it is only lemmy.ml that does not show up there.
Maybe your instance has defederated from it?
Also I think the activity level is measured as activity from your instance, not globally.
No, my instance (discuss.online) has defederated from lemmygrad.ml but not hexbear.net or lemmy.ml and yet I see the former two but not the latter, so it definitely is something special wrt just it alone.
Also with the URL being to lemmyverse.net, I don’t see how it would even know which instance is “mine”? e.g. I have an alt on startrek.website, which does not block any of those three instances, and another old one on Kbin, but how would it pick?
I suspect rather that there was a network hiccup or other problem obtaining the activity data. But in any case, it’s not like “activity of lemmy.world > activity of lemmy.ml”, and rather more that the latter is unknown to that website.
Btw I nominated your discussion to the BestOf community at lemmy.world/post/16213730 - since you cannot do that yourself, someone else needs to nominate it for you. I hope that helps spread the word some more bc this is a very valuable discussion that needs to happen imho. Thank you for your efforts to improve things for many people in the Fediverse:-).
Hm, good point, I never noticed. I’m pretty sure they were around a few weeks ago, probably a network hiccup indeed.
try posting any pro jewish and/or pro israeli, anywhere on lemmy or kbin instances (watch the votes for this comment, lol)
Yeah cause most people on here don’t like ethnocentric genocidal states. Sorry to burst your little bubble ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Holy fuck.
Zionism (the political policy supporting the genocide) is not Judaism. How would I know? I’m a Jew and I abhore the Palestinian genocide. Nothing in the Jewish religion supports what is going on nor does anything in our religion say “go be ZIONISTS and kill people”.
.
I don’t think that person was saying that it was
That’s possible, the statement is a bit ambiguous as to which part they are "whomp whomp"ing to.
How exactly can a political policy support anything? It’s the people who call themselves after an ideology who support it. Not an abstract ideology that a guy invented over 100 years ago.
That’s a fair question.
In consideration, take the Jim Crow laws from the USA. These laws enforced racial segregation and allowed for abject racism and abhorrent conditions/treatment of black people. In short, they supported racism.
Now one could say “but the people were the ones to carry it out” which sure, but then we might as well start asking ourselves how much government really matters and other philosophical questions. I don’t think the people are innocent, but to focus on your question, that’s an example of how political policy and laws can support things. The laws enable the legal environment, the people then carry it out.
Watch this!
I think Jewish people are great.
Upvoted!
Thanks I think you’re pretty nifty too. You’re welcome over for latkas anytime
Hopefully yours are better than mine
People are happy and enjoy eating them so I guess I’m doing it right. How are you making yours?
Poorly. I don’t remember anything but that.
I tried twice, and have just decided that I would rather have hash browns anyway. (I can actually cook them)
I have so much support for jewish people, and especially those who are against Netanyahu’s atrocities
What do you mean by “pro Jewish”? I doubt a comment like “Jewish people are human beings that deserve respect” would get you downvoted.
That one no, but there are plenty of leftists in the fediverse that can’t understand the concept of “Zionism is not Judaism.” And saying such gets you down voted because lol.
I haven’t seen that myself, but I’m sure some of them exist and they’re dumb for thinking that. The person I’m replying to, though, is clearly taking the position that anti-Zionism = antisemitism.
Not sure if you mean me by “person you’re replying to” or someone else. I believe it’s someone else but it’s a little bit of a confusing sentence.
Either way, it’s been a fun couple of months since this bullshit started. With all kinds of dumb takes and arguments. It’s enough to make someone say “oyvey”
I meant downpunxx.
Gotcha gotcha
.
If people disagree with me and downvote my irrelevant lie they actually hate Jews fucking gottem
First, its obvious that anything pro israeli is going to be met with backslash when they are doing a freaking genocide. Second, downvoting is not censoring, is just people saying they disagree with you or your comment is just stupid/non helpful
I’ll argue that crocodile tears deserve downvotes, as do bullies.
Im pro jewish, Im pro Israeli, but im so anti-injustice that I’m willing to stand up to anyone pushing for or acting as a pro-war Israel supporter, or jewish as an Israeli identity when it comes to being prowarfare, when they still support what has quickly evolved into a politically strategic genocide against palestinians. Hamas deserved what it got in the immediate aftermath of October 7, but after 2 weeks then 3 weeks then a month then 2 months it showed that despite all of Israels’ military and civilian efforts of having an experienced security apparatus steeped in information warfare and threat containment, they didnt have the effective strategic competence to actually wipe out Hamas without having to constantly murder civilians.
But they went ahead and kept on fucking killing.
So now, they keep moving goal posts for any chance of peace. Its not a new strategy, but it has far more violent consequences and only further spreads fervor for more violence. Peace begets peace. One side doesn’t get to play that against the other like a ping pong match and expect objective obervers to fall for either side’s propaganda.
This is all revenge without justice now.
Take your foot off the throttle.
There's going to be bubbles everywhere. I've been called a troll and downvoted heavily in various communities because I don't hate Microsoft or AI in general, for example.
Kbin.social has been down for like 3 days now so you can’t do this experiment there :/
Getting downvoted is one thing. There is definitely a certain bias in the wider fediverse community on this topic, so it’s normal that your comments aren’t received well. It isn’t manipulative and probably an accurate reflection of what the community thinks.
What lemmy.ml is doing is more insidious though. They are manipulating the discussion by actively muzzling users with dissenting opinions.
As others have said, the only option available currently is to leave the instance and re-create your beloved communities elsewhere. The Lemmy.ml Admins also happen to be the ones actively developing the Lemmy code base, and they’re not gonna change because they feel entitled to do whatever they want, and technically, they can because they run the instance.
My best advice is to move on from the instance.
If you want to get away from the Lemmy codebase entirely I can vouch that mBin works quite nicely. I've been on fedia.io for months now and only once or twice hit some kind of technical problem, which was resolved quickly.
MBIN FTW. KBIN has been "We are working on resolving the issues" for some days now. I hope Ernest is ok.
I have a login for lemmy.ml, as I have several from when I was switching over from Reddit. I'm thinking from what I'm reading here, that it's not an instance I want to associate with.
Yeah, nothing against Ernest but developing and running kbin is just too big to be a one-man show.
Dude's a superhero, and needn't be a 'lone ranger'. Agreed. As the Fediverse expands, it will be the work of many; it just has to be that way.
I do hope he eventually finds a balance that works both for him and for us. I greatly prefer Kbin, when it’s, y’know, up.
Agreed! And yeah, still down, I just checked.
Are there mobile apps yet? Because if no that’s one huge advantage Lemmy still has over Kbin/Mbin, and it’s why I switched to Lemmy when Artemis started having issues (it went down completely since) instead of going back to Kbin.
https://github.com/jwr1/interstellar
Oh, cool. That one flew completely under my radar. I’ll have to check it out when I have time.
Don’t forget about piefed it’s amazing and lets you subscribe to posts and/or comments. Theres someone who contributed Lemmy API compatibility to use some Lemmy apps with Piefed instances. Its still very early but so far its extremely promising and the codebase is in python and the main developer is focused on ensuring it wasy to contribute. Check it out: piefed.social
Code is on codeberg which is great too codeberg.org/rimu/pyfedi
Agree and just to add to this: the official list of mbin instances
Well since all major lemmy instances seem to hide mod names in their logs, we don’t know who the banning mods are.
Lemmy.ml also has the funny quirk that it doesnt have a proper legal imprint or team list afaik. So we don’t have actual transparent information on who is on that instances admin team and who is not. Iirc only one of dessalines and nutomic is on that admin team anymore.
I hardly see what that would accomplish if we could.
Nothing good or productive would come out of showing mod names in mod logs. Would just have people doing witch hunts on user level instead of instances like they do now
People keep bringing up that because of the devs history with that instance, “surely it is the Lemmy devs themselves who are doing this”. Which hurts Lemmy’s reputation overall.
Actions have consequences
I guess some mod actions could be considered accidents or mistakes instead of bad actors. A transparent system would have a flow to allow the user to contact and get such a mistake rectified, or report a wrongful mod action to an admin.
But if the admin is a problem, then that needs more figuring out how to get one removed.
the only one who can remove an admin is a more senior admin, and they can already see behind the “mod” alias.
your point seems moot
This Dessalines?
<img alt="1000001794" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/27abdf2f-d8c8-4fbc-9dc0-91c2593a5402.jpeg">
Creeping the admin logs to find out who dared down vote him.
Decentralization is good for everyone.
Tell that to the Chinese government lol
I agree completely. Blocked the instance only now despite them becoming more and more annoying each month.
I’ve had this happen to me, I was chatting in a thread with some guy about IP theft and plagiarism at universities- a legitimate discussion about a current topic- and all my comments were suddenly deleted for “xenophobia”. I let it go but its still really jarring and annoying.
Which community was that?
world news lol, Thats probably why. It was a comment under an article on that topic and they went censor-crazy.
I’ll go out on a limb and guess China was mentioned somewhere
I’ve defended lemmy.ml in the past when people have blamed the entire instance for the actions of a solitary, overzealous moderator, but this genuinely concerns me:
<img alt="" src="https://feddit.nl/pictrs/image/9c52e470-645f-46ba-ac1d-0b7d8be17af3.png">
This must have been action taken at the instance admin level, considering all those communities have different moderators.
Is there any way to probe the modlog to see which account it was?
I would imagine that if an admin is doing this the modlog could simply be faked, you wouldn't be able to trust anything that the instance is reporting to the outside world.
Guessing that was the comment they made to trigger it. Seems perfectly reasonable after starting off just attacking them
Dude literally started it by doing comment in their mod request post
feddit.nl/comment/10140068
The criticism is warranted. They don’t even equally apply their own rules depending on context
They’re doing it specifically to piss off the mods. That’s the context. It was the pinned mod request for it
feddit.nl/comment/10140068
Perfectly reasonable to ban someone from completely unrelated communities like mechanical keyboard and arch Linux? Come on. It’s not like they’re throwing out toxic terms or criticizing on a personal level. They’re questioning the way things are being modded. Those aren’t even attacks.
They banned from the instance. Apparently the fact that you get banned from hosted communities is just a new feature.
I think you have a very different definition of “perfectly reasonable” than most people.
I can’t see those, specifically, but a similar pattern of mass community bans after even remotely criticizing an authoritarian regime is completely on brand for Dessalines.
<img alt="" src="https://tesseract.dubvee.org/image_proxy/dubvee.org/pictrs/image/4b1d3476-a36a-4f1c-ba8b-1748c3a7af18.webp?fallback=true">
I don’t have record of the comment that triggered these, but when it’s something like civility, it’s usually just a comment removal and maybe a single community ban.
<img alt="More of Dessalines getting his stanky tankie tightie-whities in a bunch" src="https://tesseract.dubvee.org/image_proxy/dubvee.org/pictrs/image/f114b7df-0ea6-4182-bc17-4c9eaad6de08.webp?fallback=true">
<img alt="Dessalines bans people " src="https://tesseract.dubvee.org/image_proxy/dubvee.org/pictrs/image/8acf8786-516b-47d7-870c-d057f87adc69.webp?fallback=true">
Imagine that - a white dude who appropriates the moniker of an actual slave revolutionary as a symbol for his “cause” might be cringe and unhinged.
Really stupid. Dont forget the Che hated homosexuals as well and he wrote a letter to one of his family members saying he found a meaning for his life “Killing people”
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/2558d170-4fc3-4399-af1f-5305b0e38674.jpeg">
See lemmy.world/comment/10467647
It seems this is just a new feature in the upcoming relase (the communities ban).
Interesting.
Still, site bans for criticizing China is just as bad, if not worse as mass community banning.
Yes, but that fact is well known and at least this shows there was no particular intention to chastise the user - it was just a button press.
This is actually more evidence that the Lemmy devs run a modified version of the code which gives them the ability to, eg do things like dole out mass community bans. There is also some evidence that they selectively federate the mod log as well. It all points to the obvious conclusion that these people can and will abuse their power in any way they can.
I’m pretty sure any admin could do that with their Lemmy server, couldn’t they?
Yes, an admin probably has access to community level moderation rights and the lemmy API is not difficult to figure out.
It would be trivial to come up with a script to go through the community page, get all the current communities and iterate through them banning a user in each of them.
I have had comments removed and could never see why. Now I just block their instances.
They roleplay as communist censors since that’s all they can afford to do from their positions.
Gonna put this out there. Ended up in a thread on ML the other day. The poster/admin got a little unhinged, over 4 down votes. 4. Took to the admin panel to see who dared down vote him. Convinced he had been the victim of the tiniest not swarm ever.
<img alt="1000001794" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/94346fa8-6360-46e6-b82d-12d525e722a3.jpeg">
It’s troubling behavior for anyone with power.
You gotta admit, it’s very suspicious to be massively downvoted (25, not 4) over an inconspicuous comment that merely highlights a few paragraphs of the linked article.
I know I would also be wondering if there was a pattern in the origin of those downvotes.
Lol, is that why they removed scores from the API? 😆
Downvotes are public on Lemmy fyi. There are interfaces that show who voted on a post or comment.
For admins, yes. I was pointing that out in the picture of the responses I posted. But not for General users.
Even regular users can see them through other federated services like kbin AFAIK. They show up under likes and dislikes.
They specifically obfuscate which mods take what actions so you can’t appeal or even defend.
Tbh, also harass a mod. People get quite worked out when being moderated, and being a mod is enough work without people chasing you to argue with you or straight up harass you, I suppose. At least, I can see plenty of good reasons to hide the moderator name.
Then have a mod box or something. What they currently do is, “Post removed. Reason. Rule 1.”
No details, no appeal, nada.
What does this have to do with showing mod log? Genuinely confused
If they act on a post or comment, there’s no way to ask why or see what their actual reasoning was. So it allows blanket censorship without a paper trail.
It does, but it’s an online forum, not an essential service, and easy to replace. On the other hand, being there with your name or nickname exposes you to harassment from those pissed at you for your decision.
I would say it’s an acceptable evil given the circumstances.
As a side note: asking why after a mod action is almost universally pointless. Moderating is free work and a level of subjectivity is implied. I think not having the ability to argue is infuriating but understandable.
My experience with them is you can’t even find the modlog if you look when they remove comments. I guess they don’t federate it and/or it only shows if you’re logged in?
Good incentives to block their instances.
To quote the reason why calling out mods by name is forbidden from a previous encounter I had with them: “removed for doxxing”
So yeah I think you’re giving them too much credit here
I am not sure I understood. You called some mod by name and they removed the comment? If that’s the case, I perfectly understand and agree with the decision tbh.
That said, this is a general argument, not referred to any particular mod. I think that many people get angry when their content is moderated and they might want to harass/argue/avenge against the mod who took that action.
You agree that tagging the username of a mod (wasn’t even one it was an admin) is doxxing? If so, you’re delusional.
Mod names are visible by default on my instance so if taking a look there and then mentioning the username you see there is doxxing good luck with the rest of your life. You can’t have a system where everyone can easily find out who performed a mod action and then claim you were “doxxed”
No sorry, you said name as in the person’s name, I did not understand “username”.
well in this particular case it wouldn’t have mattered, I used the username but the admin in question has their clear name set as the display name (which made the whole “doxxing” claim even funnier to me)
Only admins can do site bans. What you’re seeing is a hacky/temporary feature of the upcoming Lemmy v19.4, of which lemmy.ml is running the pre-release: when an admin bans someone from the site (temp or otherwise), it also automatically bans them from any community they have ever participated in. Lemmy.ml has always been the “beta” instance for new releases.
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the heads up.
Thanks for illustrating that I was banned from not just one community I don’t participate in aside from upvoting, but several that I have never even visited. All for “Rule 4,” which as far as I can tell is spamming ads, which I have never done. I’ve tried to message the mods of those communities, but haven’t gotten any kind of response.
It’s really disappointing that this is how Lemmy seems to work. As a new user, I had to actively persevere through the .ml bullshit to understand that lemmy as a whole is not like that. But it’s almost impossible to be a progressive (but not full blown anti-western communist) on an awful lot of this platform.
It really does the other large instances a disservice that those mod/admin practices are so commonplace.
I know the answer is to defederate/block them, but I genuinely find the news and posts interesting, and .ml was one of the instances that I was first looking into, because I literally didn’t understand how the fediverse worked but kept hearing “just pick an instance, there no wrong choice since you have access to all the other instances.”
But even those posts about topics I am educated in and care about, it all just literally seems to be a vessel for a specific type of (dis/mis)information in the comments, which actively preys on the gullible and shuts out even moderately different views.
Edit: mobile formatting fix
Same. I’ve only ever made one post, and it wasn’t to lemmy.ml, nor have I made a significant number of comments, yet I was banned first from the instance, then from the communities, for allegedly spamming. I asked in the Matrix chat linked in their sidebar, and they suggested I message dessalines, so I did. He rejected the message request.
If this is their ideal of Lemmy, then Lemmy is dead on arrival.
Agree.
On the other hand nowadays now most of the communities are on LW (lemmyverse.net/communities?order=active) so at least it’s a bit better compared to a year ago.
It’s a good trend, but I still think it would behoove the admin of more reasonable instances to make it more obvious that there is a sizable and aggressive group of people with nearly unlimited (internet) power, and making it clear that they do not associate at all with those instances/individual practices.
There is a huge dearth of naming and shaming bad actors, and it’s going to reach a size where people won’t do their research as I did, but will assume that all of the fediverse is run by authoritarian Communists and (not) engage based on that.
And that wouldn’t be an unfair understanding, given who the creators of Lemmy are, who their disciples/mods are, and their influence across the platform.
Lemmy really runs the risk of being “left wing Truth Social” otherwise.
Indeed. I’m still on /r/RedditAlternatives to talk about Lemmy, and I usually have to explain that most of the instances do not share the political stances of the main devs.
The situation here is a bit tricky: instance admins still have to debug the software (as they are the ones using it), and they have to interact with the Lemmy devs. Getting too much friction with them could break that collaboration, and leave everyone with worse software.
sublinks.org is still under development, hopefully once it will be ready instance admins will have another option to potentially replace Lemmy
I hear you.
I’d just offer a slight counter, which is that if the devs want their software to succeed, they should probably work a little harder to police how their politics overflow, or work harder to contain them. And bringing these issues into the full light of day may help with that, or at least convince them to crack down on bad actors they a currently allow to function with impunity.
The Lemmy devs have expressed several times that they don’t want to interfere on how people use their software (e.g. admin the instances and mod the communities).
Which is good (and allow us to say that they can’t indeed interfere with Lemmy as a whole), but that also means that they won’t be the one “cracking down on bad actors”
gui.fediseer.com might be something along those lines, with a chain of trust between instances
Literal fucking tankies. I wonder if they will ever come to their senses. Oh well, it's not as if there aren't Nazi instances somewhere on fedi as well.
A hexbear in that thread is literally claiming that “the soldiers did everything they could to avoid hurting him” when there’s a photo of him lying dead on the street after the tanks have gone through. They don’t think it’s fine, they’re saying it didn’t happen (curious)
Of tank man? The guy in the famous photo?
Where’s the picture of this? I’ve never heard that before. It doesn’t appear in his Wikipedia page, it just says there nobody knows what happened to him after.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man
Was it actually him? I was under the impression that history did not relate what happened to him afterwards, nor who he was. That’s not to say the CCP did not murder a couple of thousand people during the crackdown regardless, because they did, but I have never seen a verifiable claim that a picture of any particular corpse actually was the Tank Man. There are numerous theories I’ve seen floated over the years alleging what may have happened to him afterwards ranging from him being caught and imprisoned, executed, living anonymously in China, or fleeing to Taiwan. All of them are unverified and, of course, mutually exclusive.
The tank operators absolutely did attempt to (and succeeded at) avoid running him over. That much is plainly visible in the video. Whatever happened after the video ended is undocumented and pure conjecture. Plenty of well documented atrocities actually were committed that day, before and after that moment, so there’s not much sense in inventing new ones and bickering over details we haven’t actually got.
That photo (I’ve seen it circulate on the internet myself) is a photoshop. Every reputable source says that no one knows what happened to that man, and we have no evidence whatsoever of him getting run over.
ah the trolly problem defence
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/310ec44a-29d4-4bf3-a33d-9735249e6e06.png">
Inaccurate - the tankie pulling the switch would be smiling
And there would be more people on the track.
He is bundled off to the left by other protestors, nobody knows what happened to him, there is no photo of him dead.
This loony bullshit is why tankies go full useful idiot and parrot shit most of them know isn’t true. The right-wing disinfo about Tianamen square - or any other communist atrocity - is so widespread. Tankies think that the most ultra counter-narrative will somehow combat that even if its just as loony.
Imo, when tankies get that bad, they might as well be nazis.
Just a heads up, while it is established that the CCCP killed tons of people on that day, the idea that people were crushed with tanks is disputed in academia and mostly considered inaccurate news reporting.
The famous “tank man” photo shows a guy standing in front of a tank in order to prevent them from moving tanks to another part where the protesters had gone. We have no evidence that he was driven over by that tank.
Those “academics” are wrong.
We know this because there are photos of bodies and bicycles smeared into a paste [Source. Warning Blood/Gore].
And because people who were there literally said that’s what happened:
The CCP has desperately tried to cleanse the most brutal images and interviews of the massacre from the Internet, but even 30 years on they can’t completely scrub it clean. There’s a reason The Pillar of Shame monument is designed as it is.
There are photos of people clearly crushed by tanks?
No but the red paste is most likely explained by the tanks that were verifiably there. They could have crushed people with other machinery but they had tanks.
I was imagining something like this in hexbear or lemmygrad, as people there seemed quite dogmatic at times, but even on Lemmy.ml? Sad to see this, as I had mostly positive interactions there till now
I think unlike on hexbear and lemmygrad, most lemmy.ml users simply don’t know, and many communities hosted there are bona fide. I’m not throwing stones at them, it’s the admins of the instance that I have a beef with.
Stuff trickles down though, so that it’s not solely the admins, even if a large number of the userbase are innocent.
I’m throwing stones. Lemmy.ml is toxic and people managing communities there are partly to blame.
The hexbears realized that EVERYONE blocks them. One particularly humorous youtube even did a “One of the great things about lemmy is that you can block particularly problematic communities. Let’s use hexbear as an example. Please follow along” gag to show how to block an entire instance at the user level.
Since ml was generally sympathetic to tankies, if not full of the idiots, the hexbears basically just joined that en masse.
But yeah. Caught a ban for racism/xenophobia because I questioned what positive benefit accelerationism would have for the Palestinian people. Reminded me way too much of attempting to interact with hexbear so I used that as an excuse to just start blocking any .ml community that I see in my feed. Not QUITE at the point of blocking the whole instance but… I expect to be there by the end of the month.
Interesting, do you have a link to the video?
Not off the top of my head. It was one of the various “tech” youtubers who will do everything ranging from “here is how to set up proxmox” to “I tried five twitter alternatives for a week” videos.
No worries, thanks anyway!
i’ve noticed a butt load of lemmygrad names appearing as lemmy.ml these days. Seems they got tired of existing in their little de-federated bubble
They won’t get paid if they don’t effectively spread propaganda.
Lemmy is far too small for any actual organized propaganda machines to target. These people are just zealots
Nonsense, go take a look at Hexbear or Lemmygrad. There’s very little moderation here, why wouldn’t they target it?
There’s plenty of moderation there, it’s just highly biased.
There aren’t enough users on lemmy for a state actor to bother putting resources into controlling the narrative.
Why waste time on a few thousand lemmy users when there are literally millions of gullible boomers on facebook that actually vote based on what they consume on social media?
“Here” as in the fediverse generally, not “there” as in Hexbear.
The Fediverse currently has over a million active monthly users, and had more in the past. You think it’s not worth it for them to spread propaganda to a million people in an environment they can manipulate? Come on.
Not only do they delete truthful responses that contradict their ideology, they often do it in such a way that it is untraceable by other mods. I’m not sure how they accomplish that, nor is the admin who messaged me letting me know that it was happening and he couldn’t figure out how. Anyways, my solution has been to completely block that instance, and delete my account there. If they want to exist in a little untruthful echo chamber, then so be it, but I don’t need to be a part of it. I recommend you do the same thing.
If they have database access, which they would have being the admins, they can do anything.
The Lemmy devs are .ml admins to boot.
Pretty hard to boot when they own the instance
Ah, I meant “to boot” meaning “in addition to”
Ah, makes sense!
Their mod actions usually do federate out, but their outgoing federation is a bit borked right now with some instances, perhaps due to the recent upgrade to Lemmy 0.19.4-rc.6. I believe they are at least aware of it now, though they have been basically non-responsive to the issue so far.
That is EXACTLY what is done on lemmy.world.
lemmy.world/modlog?page=1&userId=1129088
Nice, didn’t know there was a possibility to see deleted comments, thanks :) (not every deleted comment is there though, but enough to show the total hypocrisy of lemmy.world)
beehaw.org/modlog?page=1&userId=4130334
lemmy.ml/modlog?page=1&userId=1782109
It gets difficult to find them sometimes, depending on who removed it and from where. If a moderator, from the community, removed it then the removal reason could have originated from where the community is located at, whereas if an administrator of an instance removed it then it would be elsewhere.
For all that the lemmy.ml admins enjoy going on sprees of mass-removals, it sure would be nice if they would add to the code a way to see the reasons for removal linked to directly from the comment itself.
Oh yeah, that’s the other one, thx!
I did not even get a notification for that comment why it was deleted, but now I see, and sure enough - it’s misinformation (despite providing 5 or 6 links to sources in a comment below, including reputable western (!!) media and tens/hundreds of footages…). 🤷♂️
.
It is extremely obvious that the .ml admins run a malicious version of the Lemmy code which gives them additional levers of control. This alone makes them a serious threat to the entire fediverse.
It is not obvious, most likely not necessary and in any case completely unproven. Why are you so busy making stuff up in this thread?
There’s a ton of misinformation on this post and some of those spreading it seem to be vigorously doing so.
So it seems they do indeed clean up the modlog… my bans are still in there, but all mod actions where they removed China critical comments are no longer there.
Is this a call out comm now?
Tbh this is one of the reasons why I’m looking forward toward Sublinks
What is that?
Compatible alternative to Lemmy: sublinks.org
Is there anything Sublinks will offer that’s different to Lemmy? Because if not, I’m afraid the issues OP is talking about would still exist either way.
Nothing particularly, but it would let LW and other instances distance themselves from the lemmy.ml admins.
A different dev team. If there’s only one dev team for the entire threadiverse, that team has a certain degree of power. If there are multiple dev teams working on compatible threadiverse software, that power is distributed among many.
If it works the same way then nothing will be solved. That’s why I keep saying it, the hosting needs to be decentralized but the rest needs to work like an admin-less Reddit, moderators would have their community/ies but they wouldn’t be able to ban you altogether and you wouldn’t depend on an admin to decide what you can and cannot see, you would block the communities you don’t want in your feed yourself.
this is why you fediblock lemmy ml and h*xbear
Yeah, but for example !linux@lemmy.ml is the only reasonably active community on Linux, and one of the communities I frequent the most.
If enough people block it and move on to another instance it won’t be a problem.
!linux@lemmy.world seems ok, I guess if any people move to it it will become even more active
!linux@programming.dev could probably be a nice one too if people want to avoid hypercentralization on LW
And lemmygrad.ml too, though most instances seem to do that by default now (yours has, as well as hexbear.net too:-).
So just so I know, if I took your advice and blocked lemmy.ml, does that mean I’m also blocking comments from all lemmy.ml users on communities on other instances?
Yup, I haven’t seen one of them in weeks ever since one of their mods deleted a post of mine for supposedly being racist. Apparently, they can see what you write, but you won’t see their comments.
In my version of software I still see lemmy.ml comments even though I’ve blocked the instance.
They’re clearly malicious, they should be defederated.
I don’t think that’s the case. The v0.19.0 release notes say:
I use lemmy.cafe now because it has defederated with lemmy.ml.
As a lemmy.cafe user, I don’t see any post/comment from lemmy.ml users at all.
I did this, worth it.
I think we all have to remember that decentralization should also come from ourselves.
Fuck China’s and Fuck Russia’s elite.
That said, reasonable is in the eye of the beholder, and I see capitalism’s apologists at this late hour (I’m suffering a reckless capitalist growth/metastasis caused heat dome as we speak along with 10s of millions of other Americans) as just as unreasonable as you see socialism proponents.
Modding abuse destroys communities, and that’s wrong. But I don’t demand all the communities I frequent spend their days agreeing with me, nor do I walk away unless the entire ethos/subject of the sub is to be against what I’m for. By that I mean, I can generally enjoy talking about a movie, for example, with a capitalism proponent because it isn’t generally centrally relevant to the topic.
The point of discourse is discourse. An AI chatbot will be better at feeding one’s confirmation bias than any community made up of people ever can be.
It’s one thing to believe in and promote a particular political or economic system. The censorship found on instances like Lemmy.ml is an entirely different topic. It hurts the fediverse to have people banned from some of the larger communities for nothing other than wrongthink.
I was banned from the LW comics sub because there was a comic about climate change being real, and I said something along the lines of having far more sympathy for non-human life suffering the hostile climate we’re creating because we’re doing it eyes wide open out of reckless greed , which according to that mod is “ecofascist rhetoric,” which I thought was funny because I wasn’t advocating doing… anything. Saying our species is more culpable for climate change than the other animals also suffering it was wrongthink that day.
That’s the paradox of power in any form, the vast majority who pursue it, from politicians, to police, to mods, usually sought that power with a biased agenda, maybe not even consciously, but still. Power corrupts, bans for wrongthink aren’t avoidable with people in charge and no additional layers of active monitoring/auditing which isn’t really tenable on a volunteer basis.
Your memory is spotty, you were banned from worldnews@lemmy.ml for that comment. I will say good job though, I’ll have to add “ecofascist” to my rapidly growing list of wrongthink euphemisms.
My memory is fine, this isn’t the same account.
I know, it was AllonzeeLV, right? I inferred it was you based on the comment summary you gave and similarity to your newer account handle
That’s another account I have yes, but not the one I was referring to.
Ok, well that one was banned from .ml with the same exact reason for the same kind of comment you said got you banned from LW.
I freely admit I’m a broken record on the topics I’m passionate about. Man-made climate change being one of them.
My post history on all my accounts is testament to this.
As you say OP, the solution here is to use the fediverse model as intended and use different instances/communities. It sucks because it fragments the community, but that’s the way it is. I’ve long held the opinion that I’m grateful to the lemmy developers for building this whole thing that we all get to enjoy, but their approach to administering an instance is reprehensible and actively damaging to the relatively free and open exchange of ideas that should happen on the fediverse.
That hides the problem instead of fixing it… and if it’s a dev as well, the whole system isn’t really safe
Code is opensource, if they were to put a backdoor or anything that would be seen, and once detected, the code can be forked
You… should probably pay more attention to the news.
It is very possible for bad actors to inject malicious code into an open source project. And it is very probable for people to not notice because the vast majority of developers never read a single line of the open source code they claim to value so much.
“Any bad code will be detected by the armies of people who do rigorous code analysis of every single pull request” was always nonsense.
Dam. You’re fucking sharp like for real. Good ass fuckin point. Like assuming everyone has good intentions is really nieve seriously
Are you referring to any news stories in particular? Because the only big one I recall recently was the
xzbackdoor which took three years of social engineering to get in and was detected and patched within a couple of weeks!There have been a number of articles (pop and scholarly) about malicious code being social engineered into codebases over the past few years. And, in this case, the malice is “expected” from one of the long time developers to begin with.
Also: We got INCREDIBLY lucky that Andres Freund detected it when he did. Because that was hitting right around the time a lot of the major distros were preparing their major releases (Fedora basically escaped by the skin of their teeth).
Malicious manipulation of open source projects has always been a concern. And the vast majority of us do the equivalent of signing whatever form we are given because “oh it just looks like a standard contract”.
I don’t agree with the “hiding the problem” notion because different instances are independently operated, and defederation is the by-design way to “fix” malignant instances (see the LW defed of hexbear and lemmygrad for exactly this kind of behavior).
As for the whole system not being safe, I’d also disagree on that point as the entire lemmy server code is licensed under a copyleft license which allows anyone with a copy of the code to modify and distribute it. Ergo, hard forking lemmy is possible. Based on the github page, over 800 individuals already have forks of the server code. Any one of them, group of them, or some other individuals entirely, could pick up lemmy development and run with it if need be.
💯⚡️
The threat is bigger than that though. These people control the code base and can easily just start running modified code to fuck with various aspects of federation to generally keep their finger on the scale of any instance which federates with them. At best they have shown they have no shame and cannot be trusted. If there is any means of abusing their power, it must be assumed that they will embrace it.
People are working on alternatives - Ernst started Kbin and then kinda got stuck in it but refused to allow others to help so a community fork Mbin was created, and sublinks will eventually exist as well. However, this stuff takes time. You can help by contributing code or funds or activity to one of those if you like.
Sure, to an extent. ActivityPub is an independent protocol not controlled by lemmy or any lemmy devs, so there’s a layer of protection there. This is also a trick that can only be pulled once, because any other instances would likely defederate in response and ML would render itself irreparably untrustworthy. I don’t mean to downplay your concerns as they are valid, but I also don’t think it’s an existential threat.
The people nodding the instance are generally different than the devs. Also, their code is open source.
Lemmy is open source, anyone can fork it and start running “modified code”. it’s not like they have a monopoly on that
Best thing to do is to personally ask your instance admin to defederate, as well as other users and admins of other popular instances.
Yes, DEFEDERATE LEMMY.ML
Yeah, I made a specific point of avoiding participation in any .ml groups for that very reason.
Thanks for calling this out. I will stop posting content to lemmy.ml. What is the next best alternative to lemmy.world? I have nothing against lemmy.world, but would like to spread out content to different sites.
Really depends on the topic.
!movies@lemm.ee for instance is more active than !movies@lemmy.world
!games@sh.itjust.works is a good alternative to !gaming@lemmy.world
There is !til@lemmy.ca vs !todayilearned@lemmy.world
But LW communities are mostly fine. The top priority on Lemmy is to get communities active, we can always migrate them later if needed.
Good. Lemmy communities need to be as instance-agnostic as possible.
Can we? I’m not sure that community migration is that simple…
I use lemmy.cafe now because it has defederated with lemmy.ml.
As a lemmy.cafe user, I don’t see any post/comment from lemmy.ml users at all.
Communities on lemmy.cafe are invisible to lemmy.ml users, so I would recommend creating more communities there.
The mods of the non-political subs need to move elsewhere, eventually after that the content will just be tankie bullshit and everyone can just defederate them.
We can defederate them now. Content will move as it reaches fewer eyes.
Even the non political .ml communities are full of power-tripping, ban-happy, thread-nuking tyrants in my experience.
You don’t see even a bit of hypocrisy in that? Holy shit…
I have exactly the same complaint about lemmy.world - it’s censuring everything that doesn’t align with leftist views (and on the other hand, when I post on lemmy.ml it’s usually not deleted).
Oh I know, I know, let me guess, they are censoring people because they are evil and authoritarian and are bad people, but you are censuring people because you are all democratic and for freedom and so on and anyway the ones that get censored are tankies and fascists and russian bots/propagandists?..
knowyourmeme.com/…/2355607-our-blessed-homeland-t…
Yeah, very ironic that deleting misinformation is equated to deleting accurate information.
Oh yeah definitely, I forgot that one - everything they say is a misinformation, no matter the included sources and any proofs, and everything we say is the purest truth possible!
Seriously, it’s like the meme was created exactly for this post 🙃
People obsessed with purity will think like that.
It’s not exactly the same complaint at all. You got a single comment removed from a single thread by a single moderator.
The equivalent would be if the admin of lemmy.world stepped in and not only banned you from World News but also every single other LW community you posted in, out of spite.
Okay, that’s fair enough.
Still, complaining about censorship while engaging in censorship is hypocritical 🤷
Unfortunately, lemmy.ml is run by lemmy’s actual developers and will likely remain one of the most popular instances. Best thing to do is block the instance and host new communities on other instances.
That kind of makes me a bit more skeptical of Lemmy as a whole if I’m being honest. Not necessarily the instance owners, but the system as a whole.
Yeah, I’ve been eyeing kbin/mbin for a bit, which can actually federate with lemmy.
👌
LW is already much more active than lemmy.ml (18k monthly active users vs 2.5k: fedidb.org/software/lemmy/), so the system is working, people have left for a less politically biased instance
Good. Is development of Lemmy still controlled by tankies?
Yep
Lemmy.world is biased, but in a way that’s harder to see. They’re more liberal and centrist, which isn’t political in the same way being white “isn’t”. It seems like it isn’t because it’s the default of the English speaking West.
But still, ya, lemmy.ml needs to cool it with the bans and heavy handed moderation. I’m glad it’s not the biggest anymore but now I think everything is too much on Lemmy.world. I wish people would split up their accounts and communities on more instances instead of putting it all on one (or two). This and Reddit is a great example of why we shouldn’t be giving the same people power over everything.
Just like there’s no such thing as an unbiased person, there’s no unbiased instance. Better to know what you’re getting into than to assume what you’re reading isn’t coming from a particular point of view.
I’d say the problem with bias isn’t that it exists, but when it’s covert. The ML instances were covert for a while if you weren’t paying attention, LW is “centrist” and “neutral” which means it defaults to a vaguely conservative position (conservative in the sense of being passively okay with the status quo, not the US sense in which conservative is an electoral party), but it remains covert simply by being default.
It also has open sign up which means anyone can sign up, which will tend to attract people who know their politics suck, so it will tend to attract unpleasant users.
Another instance with open sign up is sh.itjust.works which I’ve noticed a lot of the more toxic assholes I’ve dealt with come from. I imagine having profanity implied in their name doesn’t help with that.
Whereas instances like lemmy.blahaj.zone and beehaw.org wear their bias on their sleeves and require sign ups be approved. I chose slrpnk.net for a similar reason. These instances seem like a much nicer experience in general, and I would recommend anyone wanting to join lemmy find an instance that they like that has an approval process.
I think the fediverse presents a vision of an internet based on trust, and I think that sign up process is an important place to start building that trust.
They were openly discouraging people to sign up on .ml already a year ago (I remember a banner to register elsewhere). I don’t think “anything” in particular is working. The devs seem not to care less for having the biggest instance, or communities there etc. They had the instance long before most of Lemmy users joined, after all.
There’s no such thing as “less politically biased”, it’s just that you don’t perceive the things that align with the center of the overton window as political.
We all have to wrestle with those ethics ourselves, but fwiw most of us have come down to the idea that writing code is one thing whereas administering an instance is something else altogether. People are working on other implementations of the ActivityPub protocol e.g. Kbin, its community fork Mbin, and things like sublinks that doesn’t fully exist yet.
I’m staring at the front page of lemmy.ml and I’m trying to find what’s got people so worked up. It seems fairly simple to not go into a prolonged rant about how much you hate China when the content is just silly imgr memes.
I mean, by all means, block it if you don’t like the content. But why are you obsessed with the modlogs of an instance you blocked?
That’s a con and a pro of decentralized net: if you don’t like the owner, pick another instance or create your own and be the king. Bad news is, every instance is controlled by couple regular folks who’re not responsible financially so they can imply their own rules and post and ban whatever they want.
Like the jungle: you gotta learn to survive and avoid the monkeys with rabies.
.ml = Marxism-Leninism
This wasn’t obvious to me because ML could also mean the country of Mali or machine learning, but based on their content and moderation patterns, it’s unmistakable that the “.ml” in Lemmy instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml stands for Marxism-Leninism.
Hope that clears things up.
Two-character TLDs are country codes
I know that and that’s why I said .ml could stand for the country of Mali. However, the .ml in lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml clearly stands for Marxism-Leninism, not Mali, the same way the .tv domain suffix often stands for television, not Tuvalu.
.ml top level domains are very cheap, as well, so I think it was a happy coincidence for them to choose the .ml TLD.
They most definitely didn’t mind that .ml can stand for Marxist-Leninism, but I don’t think that was the only reason it was chosen.
Oh, right. .tk, .ml and others
I say Twitch dot Tuvalu and people give me weird looks for doing so.
gesundheit
as a communism sympathizing leftist, i hated these mods on reddit and i hate them here. the behavior is idiotic
That’s the most frustrating part. These “leftists” are the stupid kind who seem to care more about relitigating idiotic cold war drama than evolving or pushing forward leftist philosophy. It’s straight up brain rot, mixed with obvious right wing agitprop disguised as leftist ideology. That fact that anyone other than trolls, spies and teenagers would engage with it is astounding.
Some people just have daddy issues and need an image of a power figure to guide their life. It’s obvious on the right, but I’ve seen various shades of it in the left as well.
Cold war drama is still alive and well. You could see it when people call freaking Bernie, or even more laughably Biden, a communist, or in the fall out of every country in the global south, from Latin America to the Middle East, from propped up divisions of countries in East Asia, to the poor former Soviet block of Eastern European countries looted in the wake of the fall of the USSR. Our present interference in South Korea, Taiwan, Cubs Afghanistan, Yemen, and elsewhere are all relics of that time. The US has never really left the red scare mindset, and the global geopolitics of that era will reverberate for generations to come. It’s why everyone celebrated when Kissinger died.
Still, saying all that commie and socialist stuff, I still think lemmy.ml is too ban happy. I like that they don’t defederate as fast as Lemmy.world, which I think is too eager on that front. But in terms of their posting moderation, I think lemmy.ml is way too heavy handed, and hence I don’t like their moderation style at all. It’s why I made sure not to choose either of those instances despite them being the biggest and most default. I do like having the choice, though, which is one big thing I like about the fediverse. There’s no way to avoid that kind of shit on Reddit. I just wish people would split up the communities among different instances better, though.
They’re not, that’s just a cover for spreading CCP propaganda.
Let’s play identify the ml propaganda! Is it CCP or from the Kremlin?
Tough game, as part of their “super authentic bff” relationship they seem to be loosely coordinating social media disinformation operations.
If .ml is a CCP propaganda, then blahaj and co are terrorists.
It’s pretty weird with massive amount of money CCP has, they decide to spread propaganda on, gasp, smol forums like Fediverse.
Not that I support .ml, I don’t care either way, I just find your view… weird.
Bigger bang for their buck here. Trust me, the fediverse is not their only target, but they can have a lot of influence with less effort than reddit or Facebook.
Yeah, there’s no central entity to address misinformation.
Disagreed. But you do you
Anyone can spread propaganda pro bono
I got banned from a blahaj instance for likening them to ml and hexbear.
Eventually lemmy will grow to a point where these communities are moved off that instance.
Np offense but so what? nothing you post on there is going to change anything, anywhere. You’re shouting into a vacuum.
As being new to Lemmy, I do understand what you are saying. There is no balance of conversation - it’s I’m taking my ball and going home type of thing.
Rather not all cases, but it does happen.
**People just want a good conversation **
Feel free to join at !casualconversation@lemm.ee
Chinese honey pot
Ironically, .ml seems to be blocked in China.
Pretty much any popular site they can’t censor is like that.
Oh, for sure. I just think it’s funny.
Definitely lol
I moved from .ml because of this. Haven’t had a ban since and can still interact with .ml communities
People are naive if they think the .ml admins and devs don’t intend to keep their thumb on the Lemmy scale. More instances need to take this threat seriously and defederate from .ml, and possibly even fork the Lemmy repos for when the devs inevitably decide they want to start building quiet exploits into the code. There are serious cyber security implications here that people are sleeping on
Yep. Something needs to change if we want Lemmy to be something besides a place for Soviet simps to hide from criticism. Authoritarianism cannot be tolerated.
Except when it suits your agenda, in that case it’s not only tolerated, but actually encouraged! :)
I’m so bored of that line. At least come up with something different.
You’re bored of people pointing out your hypocrisy?
But it’s not surprising, you’re not supposed to be entertained by it, you’re supposed to think about it…
What is there to think about? I complain about people who support Soviet-style dictatorships having full control over online platforms moderating exactly as one would expect, and I get told by Random Guy On The Internet #368,452 that I’m apparently a hypocrite because wanting action to be taken to stop authoritarians from controlling social networks makes me the real authoritarian or something. All this to “suit my agenda”, which in this case is wanting to be able to say that authoritarians are bad.
God forbid I find arguments like that incoherent and unworthy of taking seriously.
No, you’re a hypocrite because you see “them” censoring “you” and you scream “censure, you can’t do that!!”, but when it’s “your” side is censuring “them”, then you have no complaints, because obviously “your” censure is good, and their is “bad”.
Or maybe I’m wrong and you’re against censure in general? :)
I will ask in good faith: given that those people started the whole project to have that space, but built it using federated technologies which allow others to run their places, what is exactly the basis for your complaint? As absurd as they might be, instances can decide their own moderation policies, whether you or I agree with them or not. Given the fundamentally distributed nature of this platform, there is no such thing as “having full control”, and instead we can choose instances based on our preferences, so we are free to not subject ourselves to those policies, they are free to do, and both a free to use the platform in the way we use. The code is open, there are plenty of other instances. What exactly is the complaint here?
There is definitely a place for Soviet simps in the Fediverse, it’s just in a corner all by itself. That’s the beauty of the Fediverse.
It’s also a great place for AI training as you have total access to data you federate to your instance. Or for Cambridge-Analytica to track tankies
No, there are not.
At most, if they decide to kill the project by adding malicious code they can affect Lemmy itself. 99% of users don’t run Lemmy (which is where the “quiet exploits” would run), and the frontend simply doesn’t allow you to have a serious impact, unless you think they will stumble upon a browser 0-day and they decide to burn it by committing the exploit to an open source repo instead of selling it for millions (or use it elsewhere).
What’s with the fearmongering? Their stance is crystal clear since ever.
Right, and who maintains the fork? Who, among the large population of external contributor, I mean?
What do u mean their arnt any security issues here. Ive played enough 2b2t to know a backdoor makes u a literal fucking god. If u own all the servers u have everyone’s ip, u can control everyone’s interaction. U can can literally 1984 the entire federated history. Do u not see the issue here they could take control of your account post cp then report ur ip and get u locked up for long time.
I am a security engineer by profession, so I do have at least a decent understanding of what I am talking about. Every server in this case has that potential. There is nothing preventing any admin from patching code and manipulating the network after TLS termination (I.e., changing payloads of POST requests etc.). That said, not even in a videogame you would be “locked up” by someone posting CP on your behalf like that. This is simply not a threat and if you think it is, then you should be worried about every website you visit.
I usually refrain from replying to threads on those instances and when possible use the non-.ml equivalent
Sorry you stumbled into the wrong instance. Fortunately, other instances already offer alternative communities that are more active and moderated differently.
This could have been avoided if the UI included a warning about communities with problems. Like how PieFed does: https://piefed.social/post/89659
I agree with the facts here but have a slightly different conclusion. This is a problem that exists on many similar platforms like Reddit, etc. If you give mods or admins unlimited power over their users, it is an almost foregone conclusion that it will be abused in some circumstances. While Lemmy.ml is perhaps the perfect storm of a bad example, I’ve seen examples of abuses of mod power from almost every community on both Lemmy and Reddit.
So how do we fix it? Migrating to different communities or instances can sometimes help, but the potential for abuse remains. Having more options for active communities and making migration easier is a step in the right direction. Despite its flaws, Lemmy is an improvement in this respect because its federated nature allows more choice in who has power over you, but the problem remains.
In my view the internet has always worked best when problems are solved democratically rather than autocratically. Content aggregators already allow for this to some extent in what content is presented, but moderation remains quite undemocratic. I think it may be that a new platform with new innovations to make moderation decisions more driven by community consensus instead of owners or founders of communities will be needed. Exactly what this will look like, I don’t know, but some brainstorming might be in order for the next evolution in social media.
We have decades of proof of chuds brigading and building up hate speech hellfests in these “just let capitalism decide” laissez-faire models.
Moderation free environments just turn places into kiwi farms.
I obviously didn’t explain myself clearly if that’s what you took from this. I’m saying the community should be in control of moderation, not that there should be no moderation.
It’s a cute idea but in practice, very, very few users want to deal with content moderation. The far majority of users just want to consume good, moderated content without worrying about removing bad content. Getting people to volunteer as mods is already hard enough. Making it democratic will not help I think.
Also, mob rule is not always the best. It is not uncommon for totally reasonable takes to be down voted - sometimes just because it started getting down voted and then others went on the bandwagon.
The way to achieve democracy in communities is not by making moderation democratic, but to make community switching easy. So if you don’t like your community mods, you can easily go elsewhere. That is also a kind of democracy I would say.
Maybe a middle ground could be moderator elections. At least then it’s a representative democracy and it would largely work as it already did. But again, very few people volunteer as mod so I believe you’ll find that the mods you could vote for would be very, very few mods (potentially just 1).
All moderator elections would do is let chuds stack the ballot. Look up shit like the sad puppies debacle.
The answer is that a site needs to decide what its rules are and then moderators need to enforce those rules, regardless of how the community feels. Which, ironically, is what ml is doing (even if they don’t publicize those rules). And if the community dislikes the rules, you disassociate with them.
The issue with the fediverse is that you need to defederate or else you are tacitly approving of their bullshit.
Kiwi farms?
wired.com/…/keffals-kiwifarms-cloudflare-blocked-…
Nobody is saying that there should be no moderation at all. What we are saying is that lemmy.ml moderators tend to remove users and content that are seen as even mildly critical of China, Russia, or Marxism-Leninism, and then sometimes hide the evidence of the removals from the modlog. That’s not acceptable to many people, including me.
The problem is that someone has to host the data. That will always be true. Even in the cloud, someone has to own the servers that the data are on. The only solution I can see is something basically like what we have the fediverse, only where other instances are sharing copies of the same community and the posts on it, kind of preventing one place from having ownership of it. But then if the instance goes down or gets defederated, I suppose you’d still have different versions of it floating around, plus the problem of someone posting CSAM and it getting pushed to all the instances and stuff.
Still, I agree that I think the closest solution is going to be something like the fediverse we’re seeing now. I just don’t know how to solve the problem of overzealous mods still, because we need mods. Having some democratic control over modding seems dangerous, too. Imagine a place gets brigaded by The Donald at 3am and everyone wakes up to their community being totally different. Or sometimes people are just wrong, like we have the problem of pre October 7th where 99% of the US believed Israel was a golden angel thanks to propaganda and dismissed all criticism. Same thing with socialism in the 50’s, or racism. Democratic modding at the time would lead to MLK getting banned lol.
It’s definitely an issue, because the ml mod and mods like them are way too trigger happy on the bans, but it’ll probably take some time to think of good solutions, and lots of experimenting with new forms of social media, like the fediverse.
Regarding server ownership, yes that is a thorny problem. One could dream up some kind of communally owned server system but that might be far fetched. However, I think the issue of mod power is distinct and might be easier to address.
As for the flaws of democratic systems, yes, they are real but most of these flaws apply to more autocratic systems as well. And we see from numerous examples that more democratic systems tend to abuse their power less often and severely than autocratic ones do. It’s a higher bar to get the whole community together to ban MLK than just one racist mod. Carefully thought out governance structures can also help. You certainly don’t want 51% of the community to be able to ban 49% whenever they want to, but the ideal would be to enable easy involvement with a structure that guides users towards making the right decisions.
The structure and culture to make this work could be difficult to build, so I’m not saying it’s an easy answer but it does seem like something to consider and maybe experiment with.
My first idea would be to have users report posts and ping a random sample of like 20 active and currently online users of the community and have them decide (democratically). That way prevents brigading and groups collectively mobbing or harassing other users. It’d be somewhat similar to a jury in court. And we obviously can’t ask everyone because that takes too much time, and sometimes content needs to be moderated asap.
But then if you report something nobody should see, say CP for example, you’re suddenly subjecting 20 random people into seeing it.
Right but you could have filters to opt out of mod requests or certain types of mod requests. It could even be opt-in, with some trust level requirement before you’re included.
Also “CSAM” is a better term, because putting “porn” in the name focuses on the intended use by abusers, whereas the term “CSAM” focuses on the victims.
I see. I had noticed people using that term instead, but I never knew why. Thanks for the info.
Why is that at all important?
Because calling it ‘porn’ makes it sound appealling to people who associate porn with sexy things. It makes it sound like something they might want to seek out. It also demeans the victim by rhetorically placing them as the subject of pornography which can contribute to the damage.
Calling it “child sexual abuse material” centres the victim and puts distance between this material and pornography that was made consensually and ethically.
In a similar vein, “revenge porn” should be called sexual abuse material as well. And in fact a lot of technically legal “porn” would fall into the category of sexual abuse material if the full circumstances of its production was made known, but in the case of children the distinction is unambiguous.
This comment is kind of fascinating because it’s essentially reinventing Slashdot’s metamoderation system 25 years later.
It was good then. No reason it wouldn’t work again today.
Basic sortition method, I think that has a lot of merit.
Yes.
To whom?
If people agree with you, they will move and block and defederate. And if they don’t they don’t.
Sounds like a “you” problem.
Their server, their rules. If they want to run a political censorship social platform, they can and it’s totally ok if they un-invite you.
Network effect is a thing.
You’re 100% right OP. Don’t let the people tell you it’s a you problem and you should leave. It’s exactly like you said (in my opinion.) If at all, it’s the bad people who should leave. Not the nice ones and the ones calling out the bullshit.
Nothing changes if the just people keep silent and let bigotry or whatever just happen. It just makes the whole place become worse. And I’d say it’s warranted to speak up or do something. And as far as I heard you’re not the only one complaining.
Thanks for spreading the word. We get these complaints every few weeks. More people need to be educated and move away from these instances to make the Threadiverse a better place.
What the fuck is the threadiverse. This is the Fediverse. Threads has added nothing and has no place here.
They speak like a bot. Zuckerberg sending miles to infiltrate?
Are you referring to me or BigFig? I’m neither a mile (I’m European, so we use the metric system), nor a mole. If you make me choose an animal, I’d like to be an alpaca. And I’d be willing to do a captcha to prove to you that I’m not a bot.
Are you new here? “Threadiverse” has been used to refer to thread-based fediverse technologies that use threaded comments since before Zuck’s “threads” was even announced!
I’ve only really heard Fediverse. I don’t really get into the meta discussions on here though. I’m also getting hyper sensitive to chatters that sound like bots. They mentioned “we”, but it doesn’t look like they’re a mod or admin, so I thought it was a bot using some PR speak from the dataset.
thread as in threaded posts as opposed to other parts of the fediverse with another layout. it’s not about the instance Threads, but the type of fediverse service allowing a lemmy/kbin type of conversation.
Threadiverse is just a general term to refer to the parts of the Fediverse that behaves like forums (cause forums have threads). It has nothing to do with threads.net.
Thanks for shedding light on this! I will do my part and no longer post in communities tied to lemmy.ml!
I’ve been censored/shadowbanned in a couple .ml instances for calling out their overzealous comment-nuking mods. Not even political in nature, just seeing threads where 80-90% of the comments are ‘removed by moderator’ and commenting how suspicious it was.
Then they removed that comment, and after taking a screenshot of the new comment calling out that, I got shadowbanned and can’t even vote there anymore.
That’s just a regular ban. If you were shadowbanned, you would be able to vote but it wouldn’t do anything. As far as I know, Lemmy doesn’t have shadowbanning.
Instance admins could easily patch it in for their local communities (just add a filter ignoring API actions like posting and voting for some users), but it’s not official and probably won’t ever be official behavior
They could. But you can’t just ignore it, else they would see it missing when they refresh. You’d have to keep track of which things to actually count, and which to hide. It’s complicated, and Lemmy isn’t big enough to need it yet.
Any patch like that would need to be published publicly as Lemmy uses the AGPL license.
Yeah, but who would be able to prove it?
I imagine someone would eventually find out that their comments or votes aren’t visible to others users or somehow don’t register. But yea that is of course an issue.
I’m sure you meant to say “thank you for pioneering an alternative to Reddit so people had a home when Reddit sharted “
Both can be true.
.
Yep. When I was migrating, I saw some advice to avoid Lemmy on account of its provenance, which is how I ended up on Kbin instead.
Unfortunately, it's not going well on the original instance (getting in before "how's that working out for you"), but for reasons very different to lemmy.ml.
Still don't have a lemmy account, but I am, for my sins, subscribed to communities there. Like this one.
And hitler made the trains run on time, but fuck both him and desalinator.
Time for them to move on to a new hobby then, surely there are more sane people to take over the development
They’re also hyper sensitive and generally toxic with their reflex delete/ban/block. They’ll see what they want to see in the most mundane comments and nuke an entire thread. Best to just block them and ignore.
Lemmy.world heavily censors criticism of israel over at /politics and /news
.ml is far less tankie than .world.
Describe to me what you think a tankie is.
.
A person so brainwashed by their government that they will deny war crimes from said government and actively participate in censoring and lying about them in order to spread propaganda.
Do you think you maybe missed an important classification there? Do you think Hitlers followers were Tankies?
Of course not. Nazis are rather honest about their intentions. You don’t hear Nazis saying “No actually we didn’t kill ze Jews, we really like them very much”. If a Nazi supporter would actually say that previous sentence I would classify them as a Tankie.
The original definition is used to “distinguish party members who spoke out in defense of the Soviet use of tanks to suppress the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 and the 1968 Prague Spring”
So you can try to deny it being about supporting war crimes by slapping on more labels but that would just backfire as CCP posters suddenly aren’t tankies anymore.
Riiight, that’s why it is necessary for the denial of the Holocaust to be a serious criminal offense in Germany, cause Nazis totally don’t deny it happened.
You don’t seem to be intelectually honest in this at all, so bye.
Right, try to deflect to strawman and dip. If you can’t even tell the difference between a Neo Nazi and a Nazi then don’t bring it up.
Linkerbaan spreading more lies. Glad I have you tagged as “shill” so it’s easy to recognize you.
How do you tag another user? Did you just mean you left a mental note or is it possible to assign custom tags to users somehow?
I use two apps to access Lemmy and both allow me to save notes/tag users. Maybe if you click their username you’ll see the option.
If you see accounts pushing agendas, you can tag with a note about their bias.
That sounds like a useful feature. Which apps are you using?
One of them is definitely Sync, don’t know about others
Connect and Boost
At the start of the Genocide debunking any israeli lie was absolutely forbidden over at /world. Muh beheaded babies. Muh mass rapes. Oh wait you still can’t mention that israel lied about the mass rapes because israel themselves hasn’t admitted they lied about it yet. Despite the overwhelming evidence that israel lied about it. If you do you get permabanned for “antisemitism”.
MBFC only by the way, gotta make sure the site says that UNRWA = Hamas to be reliable!
The place is ran by Liberal Zionists.
I’ve been banned from .ml for being a ‘racist’ for being anti-Xi, despite the fact that I am Chinese, and pointed out my ethnicity as such in the discussion. I guess antisemitic Jews aren’t the only weird accusation getting thrown about nowadays.
I got a ban for pointing out the nuclear strikes on Japan killed less than the conventional firebombing runs leading up to it, and if nukes wouldn’t have been used a shit ton more people would have died.
Like, no opinion on if what was morally right or not, just what the numbers worked out.
It’s all trolls over there, when a rational person makes a community, the admins start drama there and troll the mods till they leave or get kicked out for stupid shit.
I just blocked the whole instance. I never see any of their posts now, and as an unintended bonus I don’t even get notifications when their users reply to my comments.
Like, it would be best if we defederated from them and that hilariouschaos troll instance.
But I can just block them, works the same.
More people were killed in the firebombing.
The theory that more people would have died of the nukes weren’t dropped is FAR from settled fact. The Japanese were already looking to surrender and it’s not likely the bomb played a big part in that decision.
en.wikipedia.org/…/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombing…
Regardless it’s nothing to get banned over, that’s for sure.
Whether that alone is something to be banned over is probably context dependent, and I don’t have any faith that that instance had a good reason for it. Nevertheless that person holding up their great take about the nuclear bombs being good actually does not paint a great picture of them as a person. It makes them look like a reactionary US nationalist who wants to believe anything that makes their side the “good guys”. They can pretend it was morally neutral all they want, but morality is the only reason anybody argues something like that because it’s so nebulous the only way you get there is with motivated reasoning.
At any rate I wouldn’t put that on the pile of reasons to hate on the .ml instances, not when there are so many good reasons.
.
I honestly disagree that blocking works the same. Social media relies on a network effect, and if they keep being allowed to operate popular communities then they will have that network effect in their favour, and new users that don’t know any better will keep joining.
Defederation is an important tool to turn certain instances into pariahs for bad behaviour, and individual blocks don’t achieve that.
This is a lot of the problem with gen z, especially among the left. Everyone is quick to smash the block button, which in aggregate just makes everything worse for everyone else.
Explain?
When you block someone you cede the conversation to them. When lots of people block someone, fewer people push back against their bullshit. Because the people most able to push back against it no longer see it.
So you make them invisible to yourself, but not to others.
It’s not a generational problem, it’s a platform problem. It’s a disempowered person problem. Generations are mostly made up anyway.
Hitting the block button is fine to deal with harrassment, it just doesn’t solve the wider issue.
I think zoomers are far more prone to refusing to engage with things that make them uncomfortable than previous generations.
And just because something isn’t clear cut doesn’t make it imaginary. It’s a useful but fuzzy categorization.
Well I’d be fascinated to see how you arrive at that conclusion but until then I’m going to have to disagree on the basic principle that the generalisations people make about generations are usually pretty useless.
If you truly don’t see any difference between Boomers, Gen X, and Millenials then I think our views of reality are so wildly different we might not be able to have any sort of communication.
Okay, but you brought it up and then when asked about it instead of explaining you fell back on the idea that it’s self-evident, which I think I’m right to not be convinced by.
To the extent the generations appear different I think is easily explained by the difference in material conditions that each has grown up within and the necessarily different ages of each group at any given time, and nothing to do with the inate characters of the people involved.
I see zoomers intensely involved in the issues that affect the world and any extent they feel the need to check out I think is 100% valid given the bleak world they have been born into, much bleaker than at any earlier time.
I see a hard-nosed pragmatic awareness of the need for hope in the face of our grim reality because it is the only way we can find a path through. I have heard that message from people of all ages, but also from zoomers.
Again, I don’t think there’s much difference and one thing that absolutely hasn’t changed over millenia is bemoaning the state of the “kids these days”.
Well, I mean…yeah. Of course. I don’t think anyone is saying there’s like a BIOLOGICAL difference between generations.
I do disagree with this. In my lifetime, the great recession was much much worse than now.
You fell back from the motte to the bailey then went ham on a strawman because the actual argument was getting too much for you.
You accused Gen Z of some specific behaviour and when I asked you about it you fell back on some vague notion of the generations simply being different.
You were clearly implying some difference of character, but when I point out that that’s pretty weak you pretend I was talking about biology, which I never mentioned.
If you think Gen Z is more likely to block, check out, whatever, explain where you get it from. If you’re not going to do that then I will just continue to believe that you’re basing it on your own biases and move on. You clearly aren’t very disciplined about your thought processes.
Oh but you had it worse as a kid? Also something we’ve been hearing for millenia from intellectually lazy entitled assholes.
Generations being different means they have…different behavior. Wtf are you even talking about?
People’s actions are their character. That’s a distinction without a difference.
My personal observations, which is different than bias.
Millenials objectively had it worse as a kid, at least economically which is what I was referring to. Not my fault you have recency bias.
Okay, so whatever your bizarre non-claim is it’s just an opinion? Cool, opinion rejected.
Now, millenials objectively had it worse? Okay, fucking prove it. Since that’s not an opinion I’m sure I won’t just get another rhetorical runaround.
Comment rejected, would you like to try a new comment?
Okay, that’s not how this works, but you seem to be incapable of following the most basic line of reasoning. This wasn’t you defending an argument, it was you mentally shitting the bed. I think I’m done here. Have a great life. Or I guess have a shitty life, since your generation has it objectively worse than everyone else.
Comment rejected. Would you like to try another comment?
I don’t want to get in the merit of the comment, but unless you see the future, this statement is simply not true. Your argument is simply based on accepting certain assumptions as true.
Coincidentally this argument is routinely used by people supporting american atrocities, who consider nuking hundreds of thousands of people the humanitarian solution to WWII.
To be clear, I don’t agree with that line of moderation, I don’t agree with most of the views that seem to characterize .ml, but it’s a year that people make posts like this one, you can’t tell me you don’t understand the ban based on the above.
I suggest you learn about history before you form opinions on what happened
History is about what happened. “Otherwise it would” is speculation.
And even after the nuclear bombs, there was an attempted coup to stop surrender.
Prior to the bombs, there was no chance of surrender.
That is history.
And where is the count of deaths in the different timeline?
Look, my point is simple: human history is not deterministic and we simply can’t know what happens tomorrow like if we were predicting the laws of phisics. Maybe there were other 100 different course of actions leading to as many outcomes.
You can analyze what happened, but it’s foolish to say “this was better because the alternative would have led to”. You can only analyze and discuss what happened, otherwise anything can be justified with “it wouldn’t have been worse”.
“this genocide was good, because without it the oppressed population would have led to civil war and many more deaths”.
You think the nuclear bombs were a genocide?
Seriously, who “taught” you this stuff?
I am genuinely curious where people presented all of this stuff you’re saying as history.
Like, it’s almost like the only thing you know about civilian deaths in WW2 was American dropped nukes.
There’s sooooo much that you’re missing. But unless you dropped out of school at a very young age, I can’t be the first person that tries to explain this to you
So where are your opinions coming from?
Is this a thing where you learned everything you know about a subject from YouTube videos?
If so…
Why?
I just made an example of speculating on future occurrences to justify concrete actions that instead happened. In fact, the entire comment was about the general idea of considering history deterministic, not about the specific atomic bomb event…
Bruh, you need to not speculate on things you have no idea about
But clearly you don’t care about what actually happened, so I’ll stop trying to explain basic shit to you now.
You need to learn what abstraction is, my friend. I am not speculating. Quite the opposite. I am saying that you like to think the world works according to precise laws that you can use to predict the future. This is why you are arguing in multiple comments that “they would have…”, as if people are NPCs with 3 different behaviors and the outcomes are predetermined so it’s just a matter of choosing.
The reality is simple: you, me, nobody can know for sure what " would have happened" if history happened differently. This is a methodological issue, not a discussion on the merits of your speculation.
I don’t know if nuclear bombs caused less deaths than the millions of other potential courses of actions, and neither do you, neither does anybody else. I don’t know if Israel wiping off Gaza from the map potentially saved thousands of lives in future conflicts. You see the problem?
Now, before assuming that everyone else is an idiot and that you are the only smart one in the room, you might want to try a little harder to understand the point of your interlocutor, considering we are also discussing in what (I assume) is your native language but not mine. If you didn’t understand so far that my critique is in the method, not in the merits, of your claim, then I agree, there is nothing to talk about.
That’s an absolutely disgusting thing to say. Japan was already surrendering, they were only nuked as a show of strength.
I’m not sure what you imply when you say that “a shit ton more people would have died”, but if you’re saying that the US should have napalm bombed an entire surrendering country just to make an example, I don’t think it makes your argument valid. It’s not ok to do something horrible, just because you could have done something even worse if you had wanted to.
Who told you something that ridiculous?
They weren’t already surrendering, ok. I’m not an expert but imo it could be argued that the Soviet Union joining the war (as they were about to) might have given Japanese command an excuse to surrender while saving face, or triggered an internal coup or something. They weren’t stupid, surely they could see the writing on the wall.
If you think there was anyway they’d have surrendered without nukes then yes, I will agree that you are “not an expert”.
For fucks sake, after the nukes there was still an attempted coup to prevent surrender…
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyūjō_incident
People thay think Japan surrendered because of loss of life, have no idea what they’re talking about about.
Japan surrendered because they thought America had more nukes, and if they kept fighting then Japan would be left uninhabitable for centuries due to atomic contamination.
The people who tried the coup, did so because they thought America didn’t have more nukes.
They weren’t, but honor was/is huge in their culture, and Japan was an empire for thousands of years.
They’d have fought to the last Japanese civilian was alive
They surrendered, and I know I’m repeating myself, because they thought their islands would be literally wiped off the face of the planet.
Anything less wouldn’t have won the war and cost more lives on both sides.
Even as a trolly problem, it’s not a tough call on if nukes saved lives.
I don’t think any of this is even real to them. The same way that a majority of the white-nationalist 4-channers are just roleplaying and losing themselves in the storylines, as a species we tend to do that, we just get lost in a narrative because it explains how we feel.
The tankies are doing the same exact thing. They’re not impacting policy, they’re not marching for anything, they’re not taken seriously and it’s just another in-club that has its own language and imagery and secret handshakes and a unifying message to rally behind (America bad!) and instead of turning that criticism into actionable plans for changing representation and making anything better, they put on WW2 Russian Tanker helmets and have erotic fantasies about a communist uprising that will never happen.
Children.
If anyone would like more context about the kind of think they were posting:
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f2474ffc-5798-4ba2-980a-d6cb5f52b3af.png">
Yep, the horror. I absolutely deserved an instance-wide ban for the terrible things I said.
I do love the amount of facts and proof that is been dug up and displayed in this post, many thanks to all those going to the effort!
And I’ve been censored (not yet banned, but I guess it won’t take long till that as well) on lemmy.world (and beehaw) for spreading “misinformation” about Ukraine, despite being a Ukrainian and actually reading (and sharing) the local news of what’s actually happening there, contrary to the government propaganda.
You claim Zelensky is illegitimate and authoritarian for not holding elections in the middle of a fight for the country’s survival. The logic there is hilariously bad. Setting aside the absolute waste of resources, the last thing any country needs in such a scenario is for their leaders to start campaigning over who’s going to take control. It’s not the time and place for it. If you want to blame anybody, blame Russia
Right, so basically it’s okay for countries to be authoritarian, it’s okay to slaughter thousands of people and making everybody else live in constant fear, as long as the government aligns itself with the west.
Why would I blame Russia? It’s not Russia, it’s not Putin who is kidnapping people of the streets in Ukraine and sends them to die. It’s Zelensky’s regime.
Very cool and humanitarian and obviously I don’t agree with that. But out of curiosity - can you please explain to me why is North Korea different?
It is also officially still in a state of a war with South Korea. Does it mean Kim Jong Un is suddenly also a hero that leads his country against the enemy? It doesn’t matter that people are trapped there, it doesn’t matter that people may not support him, all the atrocities committed by him do not matter as well, because they are in a war, am I right?
Because South Korea is not actively trying to wipe out NK from existence, but actually the opposite is trying to reach out to NK and stabilise relations. ‘War’ is a hilarious way to describe their status. Way to strawman the argument.
That’s just super fucking ironic, considering that Russia never stopped saying that they are open to negotiations (and the very first peace deal was actually they they go back to before-2022-invasion borders) and it is Zelensky who always refuses to negotiate and instead sends more Ukrainians to die.
Oh you mean the deal where they tried to make their seizure of Crimea legitimate?
Ok, this is reaching russian troll levels of disinformation. I think it’s clear enough to any 3rd parties just why you’re getting your comments deleted.
This has already happened, and is going to stay that way, whether you or I or anybody else likes it or not…
So it woudn’t have changed anything, except, you know, such a tiny little details as hundreds of thousands of lives.
Who kills the Ukranians that are being send to die?
Russia.
Now, I answered your question, would you please be so kind to answer mine now, which is also quite simple?
If there are two men, man A is simply operating a meat grinder while man B kidnaps people from the streets (soon he will start breaking into people’s homes as well), forcefully pushes them into the meat grinder, and watches to make sure they can’t get out of it, he also makes sure nobody leaves the city so that he can continue his game, who do you blame more for deaths of people in the meat grinder?
The man who operates the meat grinder? The man who started the business of shoving people into a grinder??? An everadvancing grinder? Jesus. At least get your metaphor right
Those are two different people though.
No. Russia isnt just hosting a meat grinder that operates on the front, stationary and non threatening. The meat grinder is ever advancing and as we have seen in Bucha, its business is tp shove people in there. Russia is the aghressor after all.
rather extremist and onesided political views…
Sounds like far left and far right are the issue.
I wouldn’t refer to Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin as far left, tbh.
Yes, they’re far right.
Lemmy ML, Hexbear, and Lemmygrad users would try to tell you otherwise. My perspective might just be warped, I consider people who post Tiananmen square pictures as a pretty universally accepted stance outside of the CCP.
Lemmy.ml is a cancer on the Fediverse. If we want it to survive, we need to cut it off.
On your Lemmy instance, go to Settings -> Blocks and just block the entire instance. That’s what I did.
Doesn’t block their users though, only their communities.
I’m honestly fine with that, because outside of their home server, they cannot rely on their mods to protect them from arguments they don’t want to hear.
You’re fine with a murderous authoritarian government spreading disinformation where you socialize?
I’m fine with it as long as I don’t have to debate them on THEIR terms.
Go ahead and “debate” the CCP, enjoy.
Like I said, fine with me as long as it’s on neutral ground and they can’t just have an admin delete some of my arguments because they don’t like them.
You’ll waste your time arguing with authoritarian ChatGPTs.
Two can play that game. And since ChatGPT has a rather liberal bias baked in, I’m not sure it would it work out too well for the tankies.
Happened to me with an even bigger instance because of an asshole admin making shit up. A solution might be to divide up the host of the user comments versus the moderator agents versus receiver of the comments. If your host bans you, that’s it, but if the receiver bans you, that only affects their users, and if a moderator agent group bans you, that only bans you from their distribution group of moderator agents but could be read by other groups.
If a community / group-of-moderator-agents-under-a-community-tag-for-a-particular-host bans you, you’d have to find another groups of moderator agents or accept all that are allowed by your host. Accepting all allowed by your host could only realistically exclude the worst offenders - spammers, doxxers, etc - so you’d really be incentivized to find a better block of moderator agents if you want to avoid certain types of comments. People who want to live in a bubble could live in a bubble but people who want to prioritize the greatest participation would try to find the most lenient host and the most lenient moderation agents, at least to their particular sensitivities.
It would be a truer federated model, but this is not lemmy as it is.
They will ban you for comments that are so inert it’s impossible to even know what offended them, it’s ridiculous.
This shit is what made Reddit unusable, up until it literally became unusable when site-wide bans started getting handed out like candy.
There’s an unforgiving list of keywords that in the right context could mean something objectionable so they just blanket ban anyone who says the word or phrase.
I got a temporary ban in memes for saying “OpenAI/MS media alliance goes brrrrr” lmao. “Rule 1.” The OP was yet another post about Google’s crappy AI suggestions and I was implying that the mass beating of that dead horse in article after article was because the media is friendlier to OpenAI and MS in the AI space (kinda the same way Apple gets a free pass in the phone space more often than not for shitty practices and taking credit for inventing features that have existed on Android for years prior). But, even in the absence of clarification (since my quip was just observational and not meant to spark conversation lol), I have no clue how that or a lot of the other things they cite “Rule 1” on could possibly be construed as bigoted - there aren’t enough words to work with in the comment I used as an example, just a barely coherent bit of tongue-in-cheekness. Arbitrariness of enforcement is authoritarian af. I messaged a mod to ask what was up since I didn’t realize modlog was a thing at the time and didn’t hear back (which is fine really). It’s more just the finding out when you go to interact and getting a connectivity error and having to sus out what happened that’s annoying and doesn’t feel conducive to a healthy community.
Getting an automated message in your inbox telling you you’re banned, the length of the ban, and why would be a little more user friendly (though public modlogs are nice) if the goals of the developers are trying to build an inclusive platform. A lot of users aren’t necessarily the type to get a persistent itch when something curious happens, so “figure it out yourself” isn’t a great system. But, if what’s going on over at .ml really is indicative of what the goals of the developers are, it does give me pause about Lemmy as a project and where it will go in the future. As has been mentioned elsewhere, the situation is ripe for the project to be compromised if a dev is compromised and people shouldn’t be sleeping on that. Bad actors injecting seemingly inert exploits into code reviewed by others can happen with any software and fly under the radar, even popular and well trusted FOSS (for reference, see “that time the CIA snuck a backdoor into Notepad++”), so it’s alarming if a group of developers appear to be sympathizers for nationstates that are notoriously privacy hostile.
You’re operating under the delusion that they’re moderating in good faith.
Believe it or not, also Rule 1, straight to the banhaus you go. /s
I just ended up banning the whole instance from my account so I don’t end up posting there accidentally. If they want an echo chamber, they can have an echo chamber.
I too have received bans for very innocuously based opinions there. I like having civil discussions that expand my scope but they’re not having any of that. Feels bad man.
Have you tried making innocuously cringed opinions instead?
That’s a bold strategy, wow. Believe it or not, banned.
These monsters must be stopped.
Okay, commisar.
I think any censorship heavy instance doesn’t deserve attention in the fediverse.
So, most of the fediverse instances don’t deserve attention is the fediverse? That’s an interesting take :)
Yeah, I’ve been banned because I said something about Uighur genocide, on the other hand I’m wondering about dessalines’ nationality and his knowledge about communism, it’s easy to be communist of you only touched it online, I for example live in post communist country and remember some of it, old people are talking about it, it wasn’t that good
I’d “understand” if everything would be transparent and they admitted it’s tankie instance and you’re banned because you don’t like China but no, everything is saying their own COC
Do we want someone like that not only administrating the oldest Lemmy instance but developing the whole platform?
Everyone who wants communism has never lived it, and those who have don’t want it.
It sounds great on paper, but humans will always have those who wish to hold power.
I mean… the Soviet Union was illegally dissolved and as far as I remember, the people didn’t want the dissolution to happen. A lot of tomfooleries happened after that and many former soviet countries did lose protections for their least economically safe population.
This is not a defense of the Soviet Union, but dealing with the first statement you wrote.
What? No just no…what type of crazy revisionist history is this…the people on the other side of the wall tried to escape constantly, they wanted Western goods and entertainment, the ussr was made up of forcefully captured countries. I don’t know where you got this idea that they liked it, maybe the people in charge did.
It’s not revisionist what do you mean? It’s a very normal fact that is literally even easy to wiki.
…m.wikipedia.org/…/1991_Soviet_Union_referendum
When you live in an authoritarian system, votes mean jack shit. People don’t escape the ussr because they want to keep it together…
So when faced with facts you just turn away. I mean, I’ll even concede that some of the member states didn’t hold elections and therefore, we have no statistics on them. Not every facet of your enemy can be unreasonably demonized. Not every element of Soviet life was as bad as you think, and it’s totally fair to say that the lower socioeconomic class was harmed by the dissolution.
In the aftermath of the dissolution oligarchs did dismantle a lot of the social security nets that existed and concentrated a lot of wealth.
I can just as easily shit on how Norwegian social security has been harmed by for-profit initiatives on the back of 8 years of Høyre and Frp rule.
For real, I knew people whose family had to stand in lines just to get food or common items. It’s foolish to advocate for abolishing capitalism when states with “real leftism” overwhelmingly do not thrive for long or at all.
I don’t believe you. I think your country was state capitalist, and would have described itself as economically socialist rather than communist.
I live in an actual post communist country, Australia, and everyone here understands that when capitalism arrived here, it was genocidal and environmentally destructive.
In what universe was australia ever a communist country?
Take your medication dude
You misunderstood me. Australia was never a communist country, because it wasn’t yet a county back when it was communist. It was a landmass full of communist tribes
lemmy.ml has changed their level of transparency about their political leanings twice. Look at the history of their home page description:
April 2021 to June 2021:
June 2021 to November 2022:
November 2022 to now:
This is almost certainly the case, these kids read about the ideals of communism and think it sounds great, and they know about how things are in the USA and think that’s bad. Two fair assessments, but they then deduce that the because capitalist America is bad, then Soviet Russia “communist” China must be good, ignoring the fact that every person who survived/escaped those reigemes described them as hell.
github.com/dessalines/essays
What is this link supposed to tell us?
Maybe open it and read it ?
I now understand why you get downvoted.
.
But you do “give fluff”, there is a reason you posts random links. You want someone to see something, but do not want to talk about it, which I find odd.
Stop it or I’m gunna spank your little bubble butt
This is patently false, you’re either mistaken or lying. During my PhD in a western European country, I had the pleasure of working with several Chinese students and supervising the thesis of even more of them. Of all the Chinese students, all except one returned to china after finishing their studies because they prefer life in China. I made it a point to ask about their opinions on the government, and the approval rate of their government is so much higher than the approval rates of governments that we have in the west. If you look up any poll on this topic you’ll find the same conclusion: Chinese people are on average happier with their government than westerners are with theirs.
About the USSR, a majority of the citizens were against the dissolution of the country and a transition to liberalism, so again, you’ve been misled or you’re lying.
First of all, anecdotal evidence. Also survivorship bias. One - the type of person that goes to study abroad is usually wealthy, well off. Two, your family is collateral so you are guaranteed to return. Saying negative shut about the regime can get you in trouble so they’ll sing praises of it - just like in Russia.
Second, the USSR thing is complete dogshit and you can see why now in Ukraine. People hated the russians. Speaking russian in western Ukraine after it disolved could get you threatened or punched in the face. Same thing with the Baltics. Same thing with Poland.
.
Yeah, okay, you are just a tankie. Fucking bloodless invasion my ass you ignorant moron. You are insulting the history of my country and my people. I won’t be wasting any more time on you - you don’t deserve the wear on my phone screen from replying to you.
.
Ah yes the tankie forgetting about Katyn in their assessment and countless other massacres. You heard it here folks, the war in Gaza is bloodless. So many nazis we need a denazification special military operation, huh?
.
Ah yes, the same 20mln people who looted the country to shit afterwards, killed an uncountable amount of Poles. Good thing that you mention me “equating bad pootin with gud USSR which totally wasn’t a shithole”. Last I checked, the invasion happened in 39’ when Russia literally allied with the Nazis to partition Poland. Last I checked, Katyn happened in 1940 in the “totally not a shithole” USSR. But maybe that’s history revisionism and the soviets were the best people around, totally not an invading nation that killed, raped and looted.
.
github.com/dessalines/essays
I’m guessing US, on account of the whole “America Bad” thing. Can also be seen with European tankies but they’re not nearly as much USSR stans and way more likely to identify as Trots. South American is another option but then I’d expect at least some of his output to be Spanish/Portuguese. It all does have that US exceptionalism turned around “The US is the source of all evil, ever” kind of vibe you generally only see from Americans as the rest of the world plain and simply isn’t seeped in US jingoism and self-importance.
…also I didn’t really invest much time in this at all, if someone else did, please enlighten us.
LW needs to defederate from LML so that they aren’t being spoonfed users from the biggest instance.
Yes, and all the smaller instances should defed from world and ml too
World is run like Reddit was 5 years ago. LML is actually a shithole run by tankies. Two different levels of shitty.
You know the admins of both are friends, right?
whats LW?
Lemmy.world
Why, it’s where you are!
Hmmm… I just got here so I haven’t seen it in action, but if true, far left mods abusing their power to censor and ban people they disagree with? Where have I Redd it before?
If their community mods ban enough people, won’t they eventually no longer have the biggest communities?
In theory, yes. In practice, not necessarily.
Pourquoi?
No, come to think of it, you’re right. I was thinking of communities that ban people in droves, but they still have a lot of members.
But the keyword in your comment is “enough.” So, yup, again in theory, if they ban 99% of the whole Fediverse, they won’t be the biggest community in it.
Sad to see. Feels like Lemmy has no bright future with people in charge of it thinking russia’s and China’s government is good and ban difference of thoughts, opinions, and beliefs.
Are you saying that all popular instances are run by “tankies”?
.
Don’t go on the instance
Is there a way to message instance owners/admins? I would propose that lemmy.world defederates from lemmy.ml asap. Post
Probably start with buying them dinner first
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d9182576-8f9f-47d7-a9b2-7096c5511b84.png">
hehe well, you can always edit your comment!
It’s funnier this way :P
Probably !support@lemmy.world
Go to lemmy.world and have a look at the Sidebar. That’s where instances publish info like that. And they list several methods to contact them, there.
Thank you! I just did and already posted there :D
I think you’d have to meet up with them IRL for that…
The confusion about how the protocol works for new users is real, and suggestions that ‘any instance is fine’, although true in a technical sense - is a little misleading, firstly when you’re not used to how fediverse stuff works, but also when bizarre rules about no swearing or NSFW content are applied at an admin level. I first started on .ml, but moved here after some deliberation because people can tailor their feed and content through joining communities, not having their instance hyper-politicised by ban-happy tankies. (I’m very progressive myself, before it’s claimed otherwise)
I think the blurring of the lines between developers of the Lemmy open source project, and admins of the lemmy.ml instance is a self-sabotaging and tone-deaf reflection on the site, and hurts chances of wider adoption. Of course admins are entitled to their own opinions, but the entire purpose of communities like this is to try and decentralise the problematic censorship which has ruined reddit (among other issues). Having faith in the users and mods to consider content and conduct with as impartial as possible development and administration is vital to the site having any chance of being transparent and worth-contributing to.
I don’t want to see the whole concept of Lemmy written off by outsiders because their first experiences of the site are of the rabid circlejerk messageboards instead of a new and exciting format for online content with greater interoperability and user control. To this effect, I’m still on the fence about defederating with those communities at a user level, but I think that I’m going to make a more concerted effort to make content and foster the communities I want here, so that .ml fades into insignificance - I don’t want to feed into their narratives of persecution.
I wanna call on @dessalines, and @Nutomic, among others, with the greatest respect for their views and contributions to the project, to put the future of the platform ahead of turning it into an echo chamber - either by relinquishing themselves from one or the other (admin/dev), or by the admins collectively creating a clear policy about politicised banning to acknowledge people’s concerns about this behaviour.
When people ask about generalist instance recommendations, here’s my list
That’s pretty much it. Other instances are either topic-based or regional, but then people have to look them up on lemmyverse or fedidb
I see absolutely no reason why you couldn’t be a Dev and an admin, in a decentralized platform. If this was a single-server platform, maybe. But here, how does the moderation policy of lemmy.ml affects anything but posts over there?
Also, beehaw has a very politicized banning policy, would you say that is unacceptable? I see it as perfectly fine and I would be fine as well if they were to contribute to Lemmy code (unless they try to build their policies into the code and therefore enforce them everywhere - which is something we know the Lemmy devs are not doing).
I’d say more than a little. I always suggest they look at the instance rules and also who the instance blocks to make sure they’re OK following those rules and being blocked from that content before picking. Part of why I picked SDF was that they block no other servers.
Why? They explicitly haven’t baked any of their moderation/administration preferences into the code and have rejected suggestions that they should bake things along those lines into the code. If they decide to, that sounds like an awfully good reason for a fork. You don’t have to love the devs and their politics to use the software they developed, though you should probably be on board if you want to use the instance that they run.
What is their Rule 1?
“Be nice and civil” - which is a fair enough rule, but it’s always used as a blanket ban. Most of the removed comments weren’t hostile or uncivil
The thread was posted into the memes community too so there’s always going to be a bit of banter, but most comments that weren’t in support of China were removed.
“No bigotry - including racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, or xenophobia.” - plus a link to the lemmy Code of conduct
Someone should write an honest version of it.
They include anything less than fawning over CCP under “xenophobia”.
“Don’t write any facts about China.”
Be a tankie
Dont not be a tankie
That is really the solution though, isn’t it.
I don’t think so. It’s a bit like being bullied and your friends are being bullied, too. What do you do? Leave the room and be happy they bully your friends and not you? Keep silent which ultimately enables them? No. You’re being vocal about it. You warn your friends not to go in there. And you try to do sth about it. In the end it’s the bullies who should leave, not the nice people. Or the whole place is doomed and just getting worse.
Silly. The internet is full of echo chambers. Just move on. If an instance is run by people you can’t reason with, why hang out there? Will you try and change 4chan too?
And am I supposed to let other people be subject to that, too? Let people like that drag down Lemmy as a whole? Shouldn’t I have a nice and welcoming place on the internet for me and my friends?
Do you like echo chambers? If you want my perspective: I have until now recommended Lemmy to exactly zero of my friends. Because of things like this. Lemmy has quite some potential. But it just has so many issues to tackle and the culture here just isn’t what appeals to “normal” people. If other people share my experience, that’s exactly why Lemmy still is below 50k active users and super small.
Sure. I moved away from the .ml communities a few weeks ago because I think it’s the right thing to do (for me). It’s just dragging down everyone and making Lemmy a worse place. Like we see constantly with all the posts like this. Should we (the people who want more than an echo chamber, and want fair and honest discussions) all abandon Lemmy?
It’s… Lemmy. One instance does not represent all of it. Move to a friendlier instance. That’s the beauty of the fediverse.
And in the end, lemmy.ml, like many other instances, are run by its owners, technically for the fun of it. They’re absorbing the cost. Not us. They can do whatever they want with their little toy server.
Look, I’m not defending them. They suck. I’m just saying that the internet is vast. Why focus of one small corner of it? Again, that’s like trying to change 4chan. Or moving to a tornado area and trying to get rid of the tornadoes.
I get you. But they’re the flagship instance. At least they used to be. They shape the brand identity of whole Lemmy. And that’s being tankie and having a culture that could be nice, but regularly isn’t. So everyone on the internet knows Lemmy isn’t really something I want to subject myself to. And if we’re being honest, alsmost nobody knows the fine nuances of power abuse on specific instances. It’s just “Lemmy” that this gets attributed to.
Every interaction here represents Lemmy. Some disproportionately so.
And we’ve established, me leaving (which I’ve done) is not gonna change anything about it. The communities are still amongst the largest and where most of the users are, and also attracting the new users.
Your argumantation would be perfectly valid if lemmy.ml were some small instance that’s unheard of by most users. Or blocked by the rest of the network. We could ignore them then, let them do their own thing like the Fediverse does with a few nazi and conspiracy instances. But this isn’t the case here.
Regarding money and doing it “for the fun of it”: That’s not correct. They get money for two or three full-time jobs from the NLNet fund and the EU. They could be having fun, too. But they definitely also get a substancial amount of money for it.
Concerning the 4chan example: That’s on point. 4chan is the epitome of echo chamber and incel culture. That’s mainly because there’s no one else. They left. And now, why would anyone else visit a place like that in the first place? I’d rather not Lemmy become like that. Do you?
Wait… is lemmy.ml really the flagship instance? I thought that was lemmy.world.
Here’s how I see it: an instance becomes bullshit, all the rest of the instances defederate from them. It has happened in the past, it will keep happening in the future. Lemmy self-corrects.
And if it doesn’t, welp, it will go the way of Slashdot, Digg and Reddit. I’d be okay with that.
It’s lemmy.ml . During the API wars on Reddit lots of people came here and lots of new instances were founded. lemmy.world was part of that and quickly grew into -I think- the now largest instance by far. But lemmy.ml is at least 2 years older and hosted by the actual developers. And due to history hosts to this point some of the large communities.
Yeah. And “Lemmy self-corrects” is kind of what this post is about (in my opinion.) I’d like to see lemmy.world and a few other instances now do it and defederate. That’s how it should be, call out bullshit, be vocal and then do something about it. My point is, we’re at phase 1 or 2. Now we’re going to see if Lemmy self-corrects. As of now it didn’t.
I think just hoping for a bright future isn’t cutting it. And if you ask me, all the infighting and defederating each other also isn’t healthy.
Thanks for the history lesson. I didn’t really know lemmy.ml was the first Lemmy instance.
I don’t mind being banned from the ml instance. The issue is their users come to all the other instances and use the same old strategies to stifle any speech by engaging extremely hyperbolic language and name-calling. The goal is to have a chilling effect on any discourse where their opinions are scrutinized in the slightest.
They can’t engage with any topics or offer counter arguments. Every response is:
“I don’t know how to respond to your argument. You must be a _____________[insert ‘racist’ or ‘genocide defending’ or ‘fascist’ or my new favorite ‘zionist’]”
Or a bunch of memes that are on the same level as what a MAGA idiot would make.
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While I will be the first to admit that name calling and being incapable to engage with arguments is typical for social media platforms, I can also testify that it is the only treatment I’ve ever received from LML users. And the goal is pretty clear: you’re with us or you’re not. When you haven’t forged your own independent conclusions through reflection and any deeper examination but rather through mimicry and simulated discourse your only option is fall back to in-groups or out-groups.
As an LML user the game quickly becomes: how fast can I “otherise” my interlocutor so that I don’t have to respond to their points because that would require looking in the mirror and not liking what I might see.
And I received no such treatment from LML users (but do receive such treatment with almost every comment at lemmy.world and similar instances).
Hm, can it be because both instances just censure the opposite opinions and label it as misinformation resulting in echo-chambers and both groups believing their own (false) truth?..
Nah, no way, after all we are the good ones and the other side is bad and is censoring the truth while we are censoring misinformation and propaganda 🤦
I’m curious if you’ve ever pushed back against the grain of lml or if perhaps your opinions already align? lemmy.world is a big tent so you’ll get a bigger diversity of users. LML skews heavily in one narrow direction so they have to contend with more outfielders and by default need to cater to their own insularity.
It’s possible that your experience has been positive so far. The reach of this post alone which started this thread shows how much of an existential challenge LML is. How many threads are there on LML about being banned from lemmy.world? This one is like the 3rd or 4th i’ve seen (just from this month!) about being banned from LML.
I never post about communists and stuff, I post about horrors that are happening in Ukraine (not the ones that are committed by Russia, but by Zelensky’s regime with support from the west), and I guess it so happens that it aligns with their narration of anti-imperialism/anti-USA (that’s why I’m not censored and generally agreed with there), but it totally misaligns with heavily left-leaning views of lemmy.world and similar instances who think they are the good guys and are helping Ukrainians instead of slaughtering them (and that’s I’m censored and generally disagreed with and even called fascist here).
I guess being banned/censored from left-leaning communities is so not surprising anymore that people do not even see a point in doing so? I see no point in creating such a thread. But that’s just my opinion.
Your statement sounds like: “being banned from left leaning lemmy.world is so common we don’t even bother talking about it over here at lml”. Ok, I guess? Not much for me to contend with there.
I don’t want to take the bait about your Ukraine stance, because it’s a peculiar insertion at this point but ok. Suffice it to say it seems like you already agree with the de facto LML stance: west is evil. I push back against statements on l.world every day and I’m not worried about being banned. I push back one time on one thread on lml and the rest is history.
I do take umbrage with your stance on Ukraine, however (bait taken): That the US is a giant military industrial complex pulling the puppet strings from the shadows and sending Ukrainians to the slaughter. This is also a typical LML position that I hear often and seems to fall apart pretty quickly when examined a little better. This position seems to divorce Ukrainians of any agency in determining their future. Are they not entitled to defending the sovereignty of their nation? Who are you (or I) to tell them under what circumstances they should be allowed to push back against an invading force such as Russia? They are a sovereign nation that agreed to the Budapest memorandum and regardless who supplies them with weapons they can determine for themselves their destiny. It isn’t for us to adjudicate from some kind of moral high ground which parts of Ukraine should be sliced off to the highest bidder even if the bullets they fire are made in capitalist imperialist evil America.
Yep, that’s correct. (btw I definitely do not associate myself with communists, it’s just that we agree on this particular point)
It doesn’t! Those who want to fight, should definitely fight, and I don’t argue against west supporting those who want to fight with weapons, training, and whatever else. It’s actually the west that is not giving Ukrainians any choice in determining their future (see text below).
Again, they absolutely are! I totally support right for self-defense.
Absolutely correct again and I totally agree with you, nobody should be able to prevent people from “pushing back against an invading force”.
Again, totally agreed.
The thing that I’m trying to say, and the thing that I’m getting called a fascist for, is that it is not “west is supporting brave Ukrainians who want to defend their nation and fight Russia to regain the occupied territories at all cost” it is “west is supporting Zelensky’s regime (which I also consider absolutely illegitimate and authoritarian, their terms have expired, they ban all the opposition, they refuse elections, etc.) which forces people to fight by forbidding people to leave the country (which has already lead to many deaths of people who tried to escape this hell by crossing rivers/mountains and not making it), and kidnapping people on the streets, putting them into vans and sending them to the frontlines to die, and making the rest fear of going out” (you can find footages and sources for all of that if you visit my profile’s comments, but lemme know if you want me to repost it again here).
It seems to me you have more of an issue with the concept of the draft, which ok, is a fine position to take. Nothing wrong with having a stance on that. Some people are pacifists and radically opposed to any type of armed conflict or draft service. But there are valid arguments for the draft too, so you can’t just write them off by painting Zelenski into some type of tyrannical despot.
But that’s neither here or there. The country is already in the midst of a full fledged war and elections don’t typically occur in time of war.
I’ve found that it’s best to be precise when articulating a position. When you paint things in broad strokes (ie Zelenskis cabinet as authoritarian) you are inviting unnecessary argumentation from other sides. If your thesis is that the draft is authoritarian then argue your point why you think that is. For instance, I do contend that the draft was executed in Russia under Putin is a manifestation of an authoritarian exercise because there is no justification for the war. Russian soldiers are not going to the meat grinder to defend their homeland. It’s a completely different take. I can also provide counter arguments as to why the notion of the draft is not authoritarian when it’s implemented in the service of defense.
I do have an issue with killing people (because that’s what draft is - you force somebody to go war, where they die) who done you no harm, indeed.
I’m not and I don’t really care about what other people do to each other, as long as both parties consent, they are free to wound, murder, rape and do whatever else to each other - “whatever makes your boat float” or something…
Is there something one can’t provide a valid argument for?
For one, slavery is extremely good for the economy, if we enslave all the black people (or anybody else, black is here just to make a point) we can have lots of goods and services for fraction of the cost for example, we will solve the unaffordable housing very quickly and many other problems, wouldn’t you agree?
And yet, I guess, if somebody does that - people will probably argue that that person is a tyrannical despot or something?
Zelensky effectively enslaved the Ukraine, where people are forced to do what he says, can’t leave, and so on, and yet I wrong to say he is a tyrannical despot?
I am not too well-versed to really argue that point, but quick googling “are elections held during wartime” paints a mixed picture really, and says that at least in case of US it did hold elections during wars.
My point is a little bit different than simple “draft is not okay” (although that is definitely included) - people in the west are thinking that by helping the Ukrainian government they are helping Ukrainians to survive, and I am trying to tell people that it is exactly the opposite, and by supporting our government, they are only contributing to more of us dying and suffering (and so, I consider them directly responsible for all the deaths), as simple as that.
I’m having a problem with this narration of “helping”.
If the narration was honest, like “let’s support Zelensky’s regime and supply him with weapons, because we want to harm Russia no matter the cost and no matter how many Ukrainians die” then it’d be a different conversation, but it isn’t.
So, I guess, my point is trying to make people admit that this ^ is the case, and not “but we are helping Ukrainians and you are a russian bot!” 🤷♂️.
Thanks for the advice tho, I suppose you are right that I should be more precise when articulating a position.
I understand what you’re saying.
On another note, are you Ukrainian by any chance brother? I really feel for you and I can tell that the draft is reality and not a joke for you if that’s the case. I hope I wasn’t rude and that you stay safe.
I am. Although nobody believes that because I don’t praise our glorious Lord and Savior Zelensky.
Thanks man, really appreciate it! It’s rare to hear that on this instance :(
You are perfectly reasonable, I wish the rest of the instance could participate in a civil discussion instead of name-calling and ad hominem.
Thanks again man.
I am safe, as I’ve left Ukraine before the war started, so unless other countries start cooperating with Zelensky’s regime and kidnap people from the streets [and send them to Ukraine to die] there is no threat for me.
Unfortunately it’s not true for some of my family members, my friends, and millions of Ukrainians :(
I totally understand! Peace and love homie.
It’s genuinely nice to see two people with completely different opinions and views on a topic just get along nevermind engage in civil discourse and debate. Thats something I find Exceptionally hard to find on Lemmy. Thumbs up from me mate 👍
That’s Lemmy.world for ya! Stick around 🙂
I’ve been on instance for 8 months now m8.
Any chance of a link? Just out of curiosity.
Sure, and not just one!
Here is a collection of footage of people being kidnapped from the streets, put into vans and sent to die: uadraftmuseum.ch
Here is a recent news (in ukr, so please use a translator) that now they will be breaking into people’s homes to do the same: focus.ua/…/650441-mobilizaciya-po-novomu-voennaya…
And a few more links about how people are trying to survive this hell, and how people are dying trying to escape:
www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/…/ar-BB1naQUE
www.rferl.org/a/…/32310040.html
www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065
theguardian.com/…/bribes-and-hiding-at-home-the-u…
The uadraftmuseum is interesting I might look into it when I get the chance.
Thanks but I meant links to your posts :-) Or more specifically, the communities you post to with anti-regime info. I looked through your profile but I couldn’t see where you were posting such things beyond World News.
Oh, gotcha!
Sorry for being confusing, by “posting” I actually meant “commenting”, I don’t really post anything.
You can see all comments in my profile, but I guess due to way lemmy works you can only see all of them if you open it through my home instance? idk, but here’s the link: monero.town/u/lltnskyc
I agree with you. Alot of hypocrites in lemmy.world. Think that censorship is okay when they are the ones doing it and it suits they’re agenda. I personally am of the belief that we shouldn’t censor any speech. No matter how uncomfortable it might make you me or them feel. Any kind of censorship should be condemned including Lemmy.world and lemmy.ml censorship. I think that both tankie nutcases and MAGA nutcases have a right to freedom of speech and expression. but so does everyone else.
Oh well, prepare for the downvotes now, I guess…
Downdoots hardly mean a thing to me. Bring erm on
I actually upvoted the comment because I agree that silencing voices (which aren’t harassing or abusive) is a bad thing, regardless of what opinion they are expressing. But downvotes aren’t the same as admins banning you based purely on difference of opinion, let’s not conflate the two. This thread is about the latter, while downvotes are just another form of free speech.
But I don’t complain about it and don’t conflate the two! I totally agree that downvotes is just another form of free speech.
That was just ironic “you agreed with me that censuring people is wrong and now people are going to show you how wrong you are” kind of thing, I have nothing against downvotes (I mean I’d prefer people try to engage in a civil conversation instead of that, but I’m definitely not forcing anybody to do anything, downvote away) :)
I do understand how the brigades can be annoying for sure, but I don’t mind arguing with tankies, – I think it’s actually really useful for exposing their propaganda for what it is. It helps expose normal people to counter arguments so that they might become a little more aware, rather than just seeing propaganda go unaddressed and being morel likely to assume it must then be true.
The only issue I have personally is if the mods are in on it too and delete your posts/comments because you start to make a bit too much sense.
Its about time people bring up the .ml tankie problem. Lemmygrad was defederated but .ml was ignored due to basically being their PR instance.
This is the main reason I have stuck to kbin social despite it having a lot of spam and errors and why I am now on Mbin.
I would have become a socialist way sooner if Tankies weren’t so prominent. ‘USSR good’ is not a great selling point.
I am a socialist, but I will not simp for authoritarian technocrats
Are you even a real socialist, then? If you aren’t excusing absolutely everything from an authoritarian country that calls themselves socialist but produces hundreds of billionaires?
You had me for a moment there
Damn you raise a good point. Afterall capitalism is when the means of production is owned by small elite, and socialism is also that but like even more.
But you see that small socialist elite proclaims it’s doing it for the working class, therefore it’s okay now.
Don’t look at those prisons full of attempted trade unionists pls.
Everyone should defederate from .ml, and most have already got rid of hexbear and lemmygrad.
It’s an absolute shit show of an instance, and the rest of us don’t want to be subject to their nonsense.
I just wish the instance block prevented me from seeing their users as well.
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So what you’re essentially saying is that these moderators are effectively propagandists/state actors for China, Russia, and so on. I left Reddit to get away from psychic attacks like that, so I’m perfectly happy to defed from the instance. Glad I have the option, too.
Defederation is a good step but I think it blocks only posts and leaves you still able to see user comments on other instances.
My account is on lemmy.cafe which has defederated from lemmy.ml
I never see any comment from lemmy.ml users.
You are talking about user-level blocking, whereas iirc defederation is an instance-level blocking that also stops user comments too, as well as votes.
Thanks for bringing this up, it’s really needed.
Your example is just one of many I’ve seen. The entire instance seems to be engaged in an opinion shaping campaign where only this gross mix of Western doomerism with Russia/China-glorifying fascism is allowed to thrive.
I don’t know how to best deal with such indoctrination chambers. Their members become completely divorced from reality and there’s no way to pull them back from the brink because anything you could say to that effect gets moderator-deleted. Yet vice versa, they can freely spread their propaganda and engage in “raids” on other instances.
I don’t think we can help them. They’re praising the authoritarian state capitalist nation of China as an ideal form of government just because the country lies about being socialist. (The “Chinese characteristics” are billionaires and capitalism.) They need cult deprogramming to re-enter reality. Just like the Trumpanzees who think Donald did a good job.
For the rest of us, a team should fork the code and the rest of us cut them loose. I came to Lemmy to get away from delusional far-right redditors. I don’t want to read similar idiotic doublethink from “communists” who love capitalism and think North Korea has done nothing wrong.
You don’t need to do a full lemmy code fork ffs. The problem is moderation style of a specific instance, just set up a new instance and defed from the problem instances.
If we don’t trust them to moderate instances with integrity I don’t know why we would trust them to maintain the source indefinitely. We’ll eventually have to fork even if it doesn’t seem necessary at the moment.
you can’t trust anyone to maintain source indefinitely. forking now just means everything has to be done twice
That’s too subtle a statement. It is a willful, bad-faith, full-on attack on objective reality via the rewriting of historical facts, redaction of massive volumes of information and constant aggressive, knee-jerk silencing of voices.
As such, it can also be described as a malicious assault on the mental health of individuals and society as a whole. Their actions a clear example of the type of repressive, miserable society they would have us live in, if given the chance by hook or by crook.
Makes you wonder if they are supported, or directly controlled by either china or russia
Or simply working out of troll farms in China or Russia while being bankrolled by Republicans in USA. Same M.O.
edit: for example: dailydot.com/…/chatgpt-bot-x-russian-campaign-mem…
Yet so few people see this reality. And engage in pointless fights where there is absolutely nothing to gain but only lost time and effort. Meanwhile this strategy seems to work very successfully and not only here…
This is essentially the same problem Reddit has (mods/admins can control what is discussed on their boards), stems from the same place (mods/admins have essentially unlimited power over their boards/instances), and has the same basic solution - let the echo chamber echo chamber and create alternative communities that don’t have that problem. And on the upside, since this is a federated space you can just have whatever@otherserver.net instead of r/truewhatever7alpha.
It’s just more noticeable here because the censorious leftward fringe is both more extreme and more aggressive about it.
At least we haven’t started getting mods running bots to auto-ban anyone who has ever interacted with other specific communities yet.
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Side question, how do you retrieve or see “removed” comments? I get some removed and I’m not sure what they were…
lemmy.ml/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=1082…
Yeah the modlog is where you can normally see them. Mind you they seem to selectively purge the modlog too, presumably to hide their obvious censorship bias.
Yeah, that’s one thing reddit did right, ban/removal notifications included a copy of the comment.
No they don’t. I received a two week ban in the wake of the API protests, never got an explanation why or what comment triggered it.
Shrug, my notifications always included it. Maybe the mod just banged you directly or something.
Now this would be a good reason to defederate from an instance. Modlog is what keeps mods consistent (right now I don’t like the Lemmy.ml mods rulebrick but at least they were open about what they don’t like).
For people who want to avoid all content from lemmy.ml, including posts and comments:
I use lemmy.cafe now because it has defederated with lemmy.ml.
As a lemmy.cafe user, I don’t see any post/comment from lemmy.ml users at all.
Communities on lemmy.cafe are invisible to lemmy.ml users, so I would recommend creating more communities there.
I’m half retarded, any videos explaining the structure of Lemmy? No idea the difference between .ml and .cafe, is it supposed to be different subreddits? Or different websites?
Hello,
Lemmy.ml and Lemmy.cafe are like Gmail and Outlook, different services that can still send email to each other in a normal configuration.
Except here Lemmy.cafe decided to block Lemmy.ml. Using Lemmy.cafe you can still interact with for instance lemmy.world communities and users for instance
Not video, but I will try to explain it in a simple way:
Lemmy instances are individual websites that run the Lemmy software. These instances are operated by different people or organizations and can have their own unique topics, rules, and communities.
Lemmy instances federate using the ActivityPub protocol. This protocol allows different servers, or instances, to communicate and share data such as posts, comments, and community interactions.
Different instances use the same software, but are managed by different admins.
For more detail about the admin of lemmy.ml, please refer to this post: lemmy.world/post/16239454
The easiest way to explain it is to compare it to email.
You know how you might have a gmail address, your friend might have a protonmail address and your parents might still have their old aol email address? But you can all still freely talk to each other anyways?
Lemmy is like doing that, but for something like Reddit. If you notice, usernames have an @servername on the end and just like an email address that’s the server that person is connecting through. For example, I’m Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org.
Which means I log in to lemmy.sdf.org and use their servers to read Lemmy, but I can read, post and comment on communities on any other Lemmy server that is federated with lemmy.sdf.org just like they’re on lemmy.sdf.org just like you can send an email to someone using a different email service and it makes no difference on your end.
Communities work the same way - so for example politics@lemmy.ml, politics@beehaw.org and politics@lemmy.world are all different communities hosted on different servers with their own separate posts, subscribers, mods etc. And users on any Lemmy server federated with the server that community is on can read, comment, post, etc (mod action notwithstanding).
This federation thing I keep mentioning is just which servers are willing to talk to which other servers - again you can compare to email. Sometimes email servers pop up to send massive amounts of spam, and when they do mail providers blacklist them and simply ignore all messages from that source. Defederating is the same idea. You use lemmy.world according to your username, so if lemmy.world defederates lemmy.ml then you will no longer be able to see any communities @lemmy.ml or read any posts or comments posted by someone @lemmy.ml - to you it will be like lemmy.ml just doesn’t exist.
If you scroll to the bottom of the page, you’ll see a link labeled “Instances”, which will give you a list of which servers lemmy.world talks to and which ones they’ve specifically blocked. Lemmy.world has a pretty long list of blocked instances.
One of the reasons I picked SDF’s lemmy instance was because they don’t block **any **instances - as far as SDF is concerned it’s up to the end user what they want to see. Also SDF is kinda a cool entity - they’re a non-profit best known for maintaining public access unix servers and a bunch of retrocomputing stuff (like dial up internet and a gopher server) that has been around since 1987 (the name is literally an old anime reference because they started out as an anime BBS).
do you mean i have to make a new account? or is there a way to “move” basically?
You will need to create a new account, but it is possible to export all of your subscriptions to a new account. There should be a thing you can click for that in your settings menu to download the export file, which you would then import into your new account.
Your old comments will not transfer, however.
I think some mobile apps have functionality to essentially move your subscription list.
You complain about the tankies’ whataboutist replies “critical of the USA and the west” - yet your very first comment up there proves that you, too, were very quick to bring the west into a discussion about Tiananmen.
You think the liberal hive mind here on lemmy.world is (somehow) more “reasonable” than the views held by tankies?
By what metrics are you measuring this (alleged) “reasonable-ness”?
There are lots of comments on that thread trying to divert the issue by pointing out the violence done by the western countries. I would assume his comment was in response to one of these comments, so he wouldn’t be the one to bring up the West into the discussion.
Yeah, I know - me (and all the other leftists) were dealing with tankies long before these libs even knew what the term tankie meant.
A liberal showing up and pretending that the west (supposedly) puts “attention on those misdeeds to ensure future generations don’t repeat the mistakes” is an utterly fallacious piece of propaganda that any leftist is going to debunk hard no matter what is being discussed. All they actually achieved is to give the tankies a justification to divert the issue.
I have no idea why libs think they are politically competent enough to argue with tankies - they aren’t even competent enough to deal with their alt-right cousins.
I didn’t react to any of the “but the West also…” comments. I replied directly to the top level of the post, linking to an article that goes in depth on what actually happened as most people in the West nowadays only know about the iconic tank man image.
We found the thin skinned tankie.
Oh, look… a liberal that doesn’t know what the term tankie means.
Yawn.
You appear to be lacking critical thickness in the rolled homogeneous armor of your Type 57.
Oh, look… another liberal that doesn’t know what the term tankie means.
Is there any one of you libs that have a smidgen of political competence to demonstrate here?
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Yeah, you just happen to buy into liberal claptrap for reasons that are totally not the same as every other liberal that hates having their ideology named and shamed.
Okay, totally-not-a-liberal.
As a marxist, I’m myself tired of how tankies deals with criticism. And I don’t even understand how people can stay with “Stalin was not so bad”, knowing that he never planned to apply the last state of the Communist theory, and even if it did, massacre are not acceptable (sounds obvious), same applying with China and their open market.
In my country (France), Stalinism isn’t a thing, all communists are against what happend in USSR, and most are anti-china.
It’s because tankies are just contrarians that use communist ideology as a vehicle to be anti-west / anti-United States (anti-liberal democracy). Tankies will defend any cause or ideology that is against ‘the west’ even if that means happily ignoring the blatant homophobic, genocidal and repressive authoritarianism.
That describes them well imo
wow this is literally them
It’s called second campism, and it’s been happening for a long time, it just used to make more sense when it could actually seem like there was two hegemonic camps during the cold war (still an oversimplistic view).
Now they just support any regime that’s anti-US/the original capitalist camp because they have no hegemonic camp of their own to support, just a broad smattering of authoritarian regimes with completely different ideologies.
And capitalist regimes. The Russian Federation was literally founded by a betrayal of a reformist movement in the USSR, and China consulted with Milton Goddamn Friedman on their economy, ending up with billionaires. I even saw .ml users crying about Russian *oligarchs" having their assets seized (“stolen,” as they said), and unironically citing Matt Taibbi. Not even “back in the day” Taibbi, but literally The Twitter Files. Using bought & paid for corporate propaganda to make their point.
They’re just campists. I don’t want to run afoul of a “No True Scotsman” situation, but fuck, for people who seem to think they’re the Only True Socialists, they’re willing to drop socialism in an instant if it means they can be edgy dickheads on the internet.
As a Socialist that subscribes more to the historical strain of Saint Simone and Robert Owen that broke out and away early from Marxism to become the Chartist movement and the history of American non-Marxist socialism … I am often tired of how one note Tankies are. They seem obsessed with a sort of internal purity which denies a rich history of socialism other than Marx and Engles. Once one of them goes off about Stalinism or Maoism I basically just disengage because at that point they are basically so enamored with the aesthetics of communism that they aren’t going to be listening to anything. They want to be devout to the ideology while whitewashing the bloodstains of past failures. I understand a collectivist mindset is more or less what Marx aims to cultivate in his work but it seems often at the cost of tolerance of any level of apostasy.
The flattening of a mass of political thought into cardboard cuttouts to snipe at and sneering at the range of Socialism hybrids with No True Scotsman flavour condescension as political ideologies simply not complete worldviews in their own right has got me rather depressed in dealing with the average Communist on here. People in general often just seem to want to find something simple and easy to hate.
go back to reddit if you want to live in the bubble of “America does nothing wrong”
Living in the bubble of “CCP did nothing wrong (and we will ban you from all your favorite communities if you dare to disagree)” isn’t exactly a great alternative.
See, I don’t think anybody says that
Showing pictures of the protesters murdered at TS is absolving the US of all wrong i guess.
This is a classic strawman argument. Nobody is reasonably arguing “Americs does nothing wrong”. Criticism of the East is not implicit support for the West, nor vice versa. Turns out, both can be wrong. Ain’t that a surprise?
I fucking hate tankies, but.
The problem i have, every time this conversation happens, is that cutting them out doesn’t solve anything, and that I don’t want to be coddled.
The 2 main issues we have, as lemmy at large, is that there are some wildly uneven standards enforced across instances and that we have no say about that. There was that hugbox instance that would ban people for being rude and yeeted itself into the void, there was hexbear that got de-federated for its mods actively encouraging being subversive (despite its users receiving intolerable psychic damage after 5 minutes in any lib space where people are free to call them names, or was that lemmygrad?) and now we’re talking about removing lemmy.ml for the fact that its mods are somehow sentient pieces of actual shit.
And while I agree to all of those reasons, I don’t think defederating is the answer.
Every time we fragment the fediverse we make it overall worse.
Average users don’t even understand what they’re looking at when it comes to decentralized networks, let alone can they understand that there’s politicking between instances and such. If I were told “you can make an account on instance x or y, but they don’t talk to eachother so if you want to see stuff on instance y you can’t make an account on instance x” as a rando, I would go back to reddit, the only reason I didn’t is that i really hate the app and I am tech/net savvy enough to handle this.
I am a tad more radical when it comes to speech than most, and I accept that, but I do believe that these people have no power so long as they can’t abuse moderation, so the answer to the question “how do we handle open propagandists”, to me, is to create perhaps a “moderation neutrality charter” and making it very clear which instances subscribe to it, having each instance’s moderation team maybe be required to weigh in on appeals to bans from other instances to ensure a certain amount of balance.
That would take care of that real quick. They can subscribe to the charter and start abiding by neutral moderation standards agreed to across the board by some democratic standard, or they can defederate themselves.
That’s actually something twitter does right with the idea of community notes, that for the note to be published it needs to be agreed on by multiple parties that don’t usually agree in those votes, to ensure there is a bipartisan agreement.
I know this is perhaps too lofty for a ragtag group of essentially microblogging self-hosters, but a man can dream.
Would there be able to be some sort of online meeting for the different instances with someone mediating to try to find a way to fragment less but also not ban certain views?
Or could there be a settings option to let readers view all deleted posts on certain instances that would make everyone happy?
It’s a good point you’re making about fragmentation and the problems it could create.
Man, I genuinely don’t know.
I’d expect this to be some sort of public cross-instance structure that is readonly to users so we could spectate the conversations and maybe up/downvote, where you could see what essentially amounts to the meeting minutes in the form of a normal thread?
But before we even get there there’d need to be an agreement and either a fork of the core lemmy code to implement this or we’d need to get the lemmy devs on board and LMAO good luck with that, we’re literally discussing creating a system to divest them of their power and they’re ideologically authoritarian.
Only if your conception of better/worse is focussed on user count rather than user quality.
Refraining from defederation won’t change that.
No, decidedly not. Unless out there there is an instance whose users are all all-around paste eaters, every instance has some users worth keeping in some conversation, furthermore political alignment says nothing about insight or competence in fields unrelated to politics.
A nazi is just as likely to know how to fix an obscure bug in some game or program than a tankie or a liberal, people are more complicated than their political allegiances and blanket removing an instance does us a disservice as much as it does them.
Refraining from making the fediverse an archipelago where people refuse to talk to anyone who had the misfortune of picking the wrong instance is going to make that better, yes.
Not everyone who made an instance on lemmy.ml is a tankie. I almost did, and the only reason I didn’t is that they very gracefully and clearly state that Lemmy.ml is the flagship but not the largest instance.
That doesn’t contradict what I said.
The fediverse cannot now be made that because the fediverse is already that.
Tankie mods don’t moderate in good faith though, to do so would entirely undermine their political objectives. That’s kind of the point of the thread here – to defederate so that the tankies aren’t deciding what people can or cannot see and say.
I don’t see how the charter idea would actually help with that but maybe I’m not understanding the mechanics of how other mods “weigh in” on ban appeals from other instances.
Yeah, that’s why I’m suggesting making mods of other instances review ban appeals.
If you ban someone because you’re butthurt your precious red-brown alliance is being besmirched, mods from instances that don’t suck Stalin’s dick on the daily will hopefully call you out on it and force you to reverse the ban or defederate.
My hope is to make it so defederation is not something we do to undesirable instances, but that they do to themselves.
The latter is preferable because it requires an instance to be so ideologically far gone that its own denizens would agree with this over replacing the mod team, whereas the former only really needs a bad enough opinion of the instance from its neighbours, which IMO is not a good standard.
I’ve commented there on a /news community with sourced points to make my argument and was basically told to shut the F up and had my comments deleted.
So I blocked the community.
I’m not sure how to deal with extremist mods any other way. Their instance, their community, and other than defederating and putting a lot of effort into restarting and growing any valuable communities on another instance while keeping the undesirable .ml gang out, I’m not sure there is any other solution.
The problem is more that they’re holding several large bona fide communities hostage this way. For example !linux@lemmy.ml is by far the most active Linux community on Lemmy, and because of network effect it’s not easy to get people to move to another instance.
It would take something huge to get people to move, for example some of the larger instances like lemmy.world defederating lemmy.ml.
I don’t disagree that it’s an issue, the only thing I can offer is that Linux shouldn’t be a community full of controversy needing block/bans of participants - the issue being is views the .ml mods do espouse being placed deliberately or left as propaganda.
Thanks for posting this.
I read the article you posted also.
I think the article is likely entirely true. One of the difficulties I have, as a regular reader not highly educated in Asian politics and history, is that I know Western governments do lie in order to protect their interests. Not only that, many of their rules allow them to lie. There are gag orders, and levels of secret classifications, and ps-ops and we all know that exists.
I am pro free speech and pro protest rights. I think since China does not allow free speech it’s likely the entire post is completely true. I really wish I could believe it completely. One thing that many Western pro-free speech countries don’t understand is that lying frequently, even if it’s sanctioned by the government and justified somehow, means they lose moral credibility with the truth of anything they say. Is it the truth this time… or is this one of the lies?
I still want to live in a world of free speech and women and LGBT people having rights and Western governments seem to be the best at doing this, but I just wish I could believe the article you linked without any doubt at all.
If it’s really that bad on lemmy.ml, couldn’t all the communities be replicated? I use lemmy.world and don’t know if there’s an option for me to block lemmy.ml unless I change federations. The plight of the poor and concentration of wealth among the upper classes has become very bad, and environmental problems will likely kill us all within 300 years (capitalism and democracy have environmentally failed) but I don’t want to be a part of something in which mere discussion of different views results in banning and deletion of comments, even if I have very pro-poor people views.
Using the website interface, you can go to your settings and block specific instances from there.
Very true, I saw a post about censorship posted on !mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world that happened in !comics@lemmy.ml (instead of another instance with the same subject community) possibly because of this reason OP mentioned. This complaint post was also deleted from the community because it was violating the rules which I suppose it was since this was the reason:
<img alt="alt text" src="https://files.catbox.moe/7jujrp.png">
The title of the post in the picture above was the reason given by the comics mod:
<img alt="alt text" src="https://files.catbox.moe/ubmjdn.png">
My unpopular opinion however is that simply de-federating won’t help as it just promotes those instances into becoming louder echo chambers. I think the simpler solution would be to have a dedicated community for mod abuse (I’m aware of !modabuse@lemmy.world but .world blocked /c/piracy so…) , so users can be aware of said issues and create or migrate to different communities as we see fit. Besides, users can simply block entire instances for themselves. Please don’t comment on the paradox of tolerance as I just mentioned blocking for oneself already.
P.S.
Devs please make it easier to browse the modlog, having to press the next button is bafflingly tedious. I had to resort to editing the url to browse faster, add a jump to by time/date or something.
I have them blocked and I can say I’m not missing anything at all.
Join literally any other community if you’re upset at their moderation, which again is only upsetting y’all because it doesn’t align to Reddit and the US state department
It’s upsetting because of the reasons listed in the post, and everywhere else in the thread
.
I think this is a core problem of lemmy as it is right now. This place is meant to be federated and decentralized. Instead it is heavily centralized as communities lie on one instance. What one needs should be federated communities as well. Like say c/linux@lemmy.world is the same as c/linux@someotherinstance.com. this way one could subscribe to communities on your home instance and if the home instance defederates from one other instance the community can defederate from the community on that instance without completely breaking apart
Communities living on instances is a feature i think actually. Where else would it be? It must be hosted or originate from somewhere. I’m also not sure how you would make it more decentralised in practice - I mean, what if you defederate from the instance that has all the mods of the community for example? How is moderation handled in general?
Also to be clear, it’s more of an ActivityPub thing than a Lemmy thing. This is just how ActivityPub works.
[OT; tl/dr: the issues with forums and user accounts being under hegemony of server instances is by design but it’s not actually the way one would design a truely de-centralised network]
It’s a feature but not the best practice if the idea would be forums (and users) being free of domains (and the dangers of domains being taken down, and host admins’ whims). The design approach of Lemmy however, speaks “hegemony” all over. It says a lot about the mindset of its creators.
An alternative would be indeed distributed directory systems, employing concepts like DHT … well proven de-centralized resiliency for quite a while. Would it have been done in such a way, there would be no difficulty with migrating forums and users across instances, and even a domain getting lost would not necessarily lead to all forums/accounts there-on to be lost. Also the issues with link creation across instances were due to forums being bound to domain names instead of them having Universal IDs thus being agnostic of which node they are actually hosted on.
ActivityPub, AFAIK only defines a protocol for communicating datasets between instances, not the structures in which federation should be done.
I don’t think the idea is for users to be free of domains. One of the key benefits of tying users to their instance is that you defederate from the users of an instance when you defederate from an instance. If users were not bound to instances, it would be hard to defederate from certain groups without manually defederating a million users. Users being tied to domains makes moderation via defederation much, much simpler.
I’m not an expert on ActivityPub but I think you’re wrong about this being Lemmy’s design decision. I think ActivityPub is designed in this way and it is intentional. I mean, all other ActivityPub apps do the same thing (e.g. Mastodon users are also tied to their instance).
Just want to point out that domain names are also perfectly capable of being agnostic about nodes - i.e. you can host multiple websites on a single computer or distribute the hosting of a website across many computers. I’m not really sure what you’re saying here but I don’t know if it’s important.
Umm… I was not so very clear perhaps. The idea would still be that user accounts as well as forums all contain their domain name, as their site of origin rather than a location identifier. Just that the host could change to any other domain (after negociation with the new host, that is). So it’s not about domains being tied to specific hosts/IPs but entities being tied to domains. It would be up for design discussion if that identifier should change or not, iin the case of a migration. The idea would be to give entities the ability to roam or be resurrected from any federated copy in case they are dissatisfied with the policies of their hosts, or in the event a domain gets taken down by authoritrian actors. (That’s why this actually is off-topic here)
From my glance into the ActivityPub doc, I concluded that it’s really only about the data exchange protocol, yet I might have overlooked something as I never had an in-depth talk with people who implement the thing. Yet, just because many do it in a certain way does not mean to me that this is written in stone somewhere. :-)
If we keep going we might accidentally reinvent Usenet news.
Not saying that like its a bad thing, just saying we might be able to take some inspiration from there.
What you are describing is basically Mastodon (or, if you like porn and hatespeech, twitter… non-consensual porn because a lot of Mastodon instances are REALLY horny).
The moment you aggregate communities across instances you remove the ability to moderate them. Because maybe a hexbear mod wants to remove all mention of the Uyghur people, an ml mod wants to remove all mention of genocide against them, and a zip mod wants to remove all the comments about why genocide is good in a thread about god damned Bluey.
Do they all get to delete everything across every instance? Do you start having different views of the same community depending on your home instance?
No, they control their content and you control whose instances you sub to.
Again, how does that work if c/linux is “the same” on every instance?
Will comments and posts exist on the world view of c/linux but not the zip view? At which point… what are we actually getting over the status quo? Because you can bet that anyone who has hexbear unblocked would see two different versions of every single thread because nobody else would see the hexbear posted thread.
What I mean is that a subset of all Linux communities agrees on a common set of rules and forms a community of communities. Content of all communities is shared with everyone who subscribes to one of the communities. Every community moderates its own content. If one community decides to have stricter rules than the others it can defederate. Basically just like on the level of instances.
What stops us to just defederate from lemmy.ml is that the community is hosted there and all members are linked to that one point of failure.
So… exactly what we already have except instead of c/linux@lemmy.world it is c/linux@lemmy.worldANDlemmy.zip?
No. Mastodon and twitter are short message services. Lemmy and reddit are content aggregators.
Instance A also cannot moderate the content of Instance B. Your argument is therefore invalid. The point of federation is that instances can agree on a common set of rules and values or not. In that case they defederate from each other. However, this doesn’t work in practice as communities are centralized. Obviously, most of us agree that lemmy.ml is a problem but we don’t federate just because they ‘own’ the instance.
Cant talk about shit nowadays that the left doesnt want to. Europe and Canada are being invaded by muslims and indians where they are already making demands without being citizens and creating social havoc. Cant criticize Israel either.
Oh no please not this shit
Thanks for proving my point.
Look, I’d love to discuss, but usually with this kind of bigotry it amounts to pissing in a violin. There’s no room for hate in my world
You’re free to talk all you like, in fact -but you’re going to be rightfully considered a dipshit. It comes with the territory. Be prepared, my fragile friend.
s/about /bull/Would rather have .ml or hexbear than whatever this is
Yeah it was only a matter of time before you explicitly lumped Indians into the persona non grata list. I always knew you guys would eventually just say “fuck all brown people”. This is exactly why Indians born in the West to Indian immigrants have strong solidarity with other brown people regardless of their religion. We don’t trust you conservatives and never will.
You came invaded our ancestral country, subjugated us, stole our natural resources, and divided us. You still have items you stole from us in your museums. And you have the audacity to say that Indians and Muslims are invading Europe after Europe invaded us and stole from us.
Naw. This is why we’re on the left. Fuck you all. If you say we’re invading you, then fuck it. We are invading you, and we’ve raised “anchor babies” as sleeper cell spies – and we’re going to save the West from you pathetic conservative colonizers.
i love it when racist Europeans show their ass
I’d like to note for the record that I downvoted you not for using the term “racist”, that definitely seems to be an accurate assessment, but for saying “European”. For one, a European racist wouldn’t care about Canada, for two, Indians aren’t really a large or noticeable or denigrated immigrant group anywhere in Europe but maybe the UK, and for three, UK racists wouldn’t care about “the continent”.
No, what we’re looking at here seems to be a Canadian racist. They can keep them.
As a Canadian, we don’t want him either. How about we dump 'em in the ocean?
Hmm… Gulag on Hans’ Island?
We’ll have to ask Denmark and see what they think. I’m sure they won’t mind…
ok
Whenever this topic comes up, I find myself wondering what these folks do all day. Not in a Boomer “don’t these people have jobs?!?” way, but more … what is it like to be them? Do they just sit in front of the computer looking for conversations to disrupt? What is their daily existence? Because I find their volume and dedication to what they do fascinating. Cancerous and absurd, but also fascinating.
This was my experience. My first interaction was me asking a question in good faith. I was then attacked en masse and banned. When I asked about it, I was told how I was a terrible person for not already knowing and believing what they do.
Keeping in mind that “knowing and believing what they do” is itself a perilous notion because one of them might be a “Post-Madrid 1933 purple throated” Marxist while another might be a “Modernist new path” Marxist (I made those terms up). I mean I know “lol factions” is an old discussion with the farthest left, but they can’t even agree with each other.
Honestly once you sort of realize that you can’t be on the left and also support authoritarianism/fascism (regardless of the label or intent) the factionalism kind of isn’t as troublesome or confusing.
You end up with those who believe in supporting progress informed by rational, current understanding of reality and then you have those who cling to failed ideas the same way conservatives do.
The left can debate solutions and data reasonably without splitting into contradicting camps, people just need to always check and see if they’re actually oriented towards the defining principles of left wing politics; bolstering human rights and well being, strengthening democratic institutions and outcomes using the most current understanding of the world we have available to us right now.
The left, by definition, flexes and adapts to reality to achieve an outcome, conservativism is when people try to bend reality to fit their ideology.
My wife and I have a saying we find ourselves using far, FAR too often: “Conservatism lurks in the most unexpected places…”
Yes.
I really want to understand their relationship with the CCP.
Do they genuinely believe the shit they’re peddling or are they paid propagandists or is their something more nefarious afoot.
They get half a yuan per post. Not sure what the rate is on banning or deleting comments.
i’ve seen you say this more than once. do you have a source?
This is what’s being referred to:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party
From my interactions, I’ve come to the conclusion that they’re mostly seriously broken people who’ve discovered Marx, convinced themselves that capitalism is the cause of all suffering and believe socialism is the solution that will free them from their trauma. The degree of their attachment to socialism is a reflection of the degree of their suffering and brokenness.
If they weren’t so toxic, they’d be deserving of compassion and forebearance.
It is an interesting question because even China doesn’t believe in the disinformation they spread. It’s just a tactic
This is their job. They get half a yuan (wumao) per post.
The only thing you can really do is create new communities and wait for them to grow.
I am surprised that my comments on that post weren’t removed.
It is pretty horrifying that there are people in positions of moderating what thoughts are allowed to propagate who deny or cover up the events that took place in Tienanmen Square.
.
What did you say and what was the removal reason?
I said they **weren’t **removed. I think I was just commenting that China has covered up that it happened.
Oh thanks. Sometimes ml posts end up on my world feed but the comments look normal and have many world users.
When I read about people getting banned from ml for posting what they post on world I wonder if the ml mods ban world users in those posts at random or I am missing something.
Tankies make liberals uncomfortable because liberals believe they are the furthest left you can go before you become wrong and bad (forgetting that there are folks to their right on the political spectrum who think they are.
The worst thing for a tankie like me was running here to get away from the insane msn-pilled discourse, finding some actual leftists, only to have have leredditors chase me down sayin’ i am following them.
I mean shit I’m just trying to talk leftist ideals that haven’t been twisted into neoliberal business-school-bullshit talking points. I care bout the same shit yall do, i just don’t think the DNC is going to help us get there. That prospect does not make me happy, believe me.
Libs? If you are burning with desire to debate politics? I am begging… begging you to understand that the education in school and the news yesterday on the tv Aren’t. Acumen.(why would they be more credible than the commercials in between them?), and do not fear but embrace the idea/possibility that there’s an iota of a chance you might not actually be right.
Does this notion mean i am? No. But if you don’t think you might be wrong then you’ll likely never find out you are.
I’m not sure you understand exactly what a tankie is. I mean, do you really think it’s all right to sacrifice (I.E. straight up murder) people to the ideals of communism and socialism?
Being ultra liberal is fine IMO, even having the attitude that we might have to have use violence to overthrow of our government in order to get liberal ideals to be a part of our system is somewhat okay. But to think that our government, should it become communist, should be allowed to kill people in order to maintain a socialist or communist society is just straight up wrong and as far as I know that’s what a tankie is, someone who thinks that Tiananmen Square and Stalin’s reign of terror was just a necessary evil in order to strengthen the communist societal norm.
All governments kill people. That’s what governments do, specifically militaries do. I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong for a socialist or communist nation to defend itself. What’s wrong is countries killing peaceful protesters for no other reason than vocally disagreeing with them. That’s what makes Tiananmen Square and Stalin wrong, not just that they killed people.
Well, I stand corrected. You are, indeed, a tankie.
In that case, get fucked. Governments murdering its citizens, or anyone for that matter, for any reason whatsoever is not okay.
I wasn’t the one calling myself a tankie, learn to read usernames. I am not a marxist so can’t be one anyway. Are you a pacifist or something? Because it sounds like you oppose all militarism.
Seems to me the real objection should not be the ideology but the existence of any system that must murder the people it governs in order to continue to govern.
That’s not what’s happening here. Not all marxists are okay with covering up Tiananmen Square or supporting the CCP. I used to be part of a Trotskyist org and they wouldn’t be caught dead supporting either Stalin or the CCP. Anarchists certainly aren’t okay with it, and they are further left than you are. Stop pretending all your enemies are liberals.
Liberals aren’t my enemies though? I’m not pretending anything. Liberals are very high representation in lotsa comms and they are who i’m talking to seeing how this is a thread with a liberal complaining about me. Capice? Let’s not fight, let’s just chill today
Bro your the one supporting genocide denial, that’s the reason people are fighting you. Stop doing things like that and maybe “the liberals” and everyone else will leave you alone. In fact no one actually mentioned liberals until you did. You are the problem here.
No.
So you acknowledge the Uighur cultural genocide then? Also you weren’t denying the Tiananmen square massacre earlier? Why are you in this comment section if you don’t deny these things? It’s specifically complaining about Tankies who deny both those atrocities committed by the CCP.
Without trying to be combative, but that sounds like one of those tidbits which one side believes about the other, circulated only to divide. At least I don’t have the impression that it is a view with any footing amongst liberal-minded people.
<img alt="2021 PEW poll showing that 89% of liberals and 24% of conservatives support tuition-free college." src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/fc38c1a4-08f8-4064-be1b-b1984cf2925e.png">
Most liberals want to move further left, ideas like free college and public education, public transport, less corporate power and splitting up large corporations, even unconditional basic income, etc. are popular with the majority. Just violent revolution and authoritarianism won’t roll, after all, liberal means “live and let live.”
As a mixed-ideology lefty (maybe I fit within your definition of liberal), I’m not worried about tankies being too far left, not at all, rather, I am tempted to think of them as confused right wingers believing themselves to be “the left.”
Yeah that’s horseshoe theory my man! There is a left further than liberal! It’s not like liberal is the end of the pol spec right? It’s hard to get my tone right here but the idea itself that tankies are right wing is itself one of those things I’ve side believes about the other.
Also, i don’t hate liberals, i like em! I was one even. My family’s lib. I want to help libs move left of course, like you guys wanna make me see the light. The ones who tell me my politics like they know better are the only ones who annoy me and an example of the type of commenter i tried to leave behind.
Except tankies are authoritarians, and some even support the CCP, who are basically a dictatorship. How is this left wing again?
I am not going to say that tankies are right wing like this guy you’re replying to. What they are is confused people who tried to join the left for the wrong reasons and ended up becoming authoritarians because of it. That or you fell into a cult-like group that spreads misinformation.
Also Tankies saying they like liberals is a new one to me. Normally they like complaining about liberals. I’ve been called a liberal for some of the most asinine shit imaginable, basically just because I don’t immediately agree with them.
Uh…tankies and leftists are not the same thing (though the liberals on Political Memes don’t seem to understand the difference). Tankies are authoritarian-apologists. It was coined by British communists who wanted to differentiate themselves from pro-Soviet communists (specifically, communists who were defending the Soviets sending tanks into Hungary). In the modern sense, it’s used to describe communists who defend authoritarian socialist or communist states. If you don’t feel compelled to justify Stalinism, the Tiananmen Square massacre, or the Uyghur genocide, you’re probably not a tankie.
weeeeellllll some of those things i am compelled to defend. Mostly in the sense that two of those are terribly misrepresented. I dont count tiennamen square with those other two, but i haven’t read anything on it. So i guess i am a tankie! Anyway I’m not here to change minds so let’s leave it there
I mean, fair enough, but I’ve never heard anyone use tankie as…well, not a pejorative. Like, I’ve never heard a liberal call themselves a, “libtard.”
Yeah you’re probably right that it started out as a prejorative. I’ve personally embraced the term cuz fuck it if I’m gonna get called names for expressing my opinion i may as well own that shit
If they are going to call me a horse fucker, well, I guess I better own it.
Now you get it!
Whatever you say, horse fucker.
Use communities on lemm.ee which will have both left and right wing folk. Or if you want to avoid left altogether, Lemmy.world communities, and there are lots of them.
Lemm.ee is something we need to nurture. Great admins that try to avoid their personal biases.
Sorry, I can’t stand tankies, but tankies are still a lot more rational than the average US conservative these days. Conservative opinions should be censored and don’t need a voice on this platform. “Everyone should have a voice, no matter how destructive and irrational” is its own extreme opinion.
tankies are not “left”. they’re basically fascists with a leftist paint job. they use some left-related words to propagate right-wing views.
Left wing doesnt mean good. It just means left wing. Mao and Stalin were left wing.
Right wing doesnt mean bad. It just means right wing. Your average blue collar worker is right wing.
.
No tankies are authotarian left to be exact the term tankie is refering to those who believe in authotarian socialism (communism) they advocate for authotarian left wing policy’s . And conservative views such as family values rule of law property rights populism (caring about the wants and needs of the every day man) aren’t fascist opinions.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie?wprov=sfla1
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism?wprov=sfla1
www.dictionary.com/browse/populism
Noun British
a political strategy based on a calculated appeal to the interests or prejudices of ordinary people
first of all i didn’t talk about conservatism so that part is irrelevant… second of all, it doesn’t matter what anyone calls it, but “authoritarian socialism/communism” is an oxymoron; which is fitting because tankie ideology is nonsensical just like fascism.
when it comes down to it, the left wing is against social hierarchy and right wing is for it. “authoritarian left” doesn’t make sense; it’s just a way to refer to nonsense like tankie ideology… right wing ideology wrapped in leftist language.
I don’t think there is a solution.
Effective moderation to protect vulnerable people needs more centralization. Avoiding the influence of bad-actor mods needs more decentralization. The two seem fairly mutually exclusive. Or rather, they trade off against each other.
With more users, having a fractured community wouldn’t be a huge problem, because they could all have critical mass. But with the current user base that is generally not feasible, even for really popular topics.
Defederation of lemmy.ml from the larger instances would be a solution.
I’m talking about systemic solutions for the general problem of bad-actor mods.
Defederating an instance is fracturing the community which difficult for a community to withstand with our current user numbers.
Giving mods less power, such as making communities themselves defederated, makes problems for good-faith mods who are trying to protect vulnerable community members.
It’d be neat if the community itself could vote to migrate to a new instance, but that’d be so fraught with abuse that I can’t see it actually working.
You kind of already can do this. It’s just that instead of voting directly, people choose individually where to go instead. That is also kind of a “vote” - you vote by choosing a community and so whichever gets most votes becomes the new major community of that topic.
There is no need for a systematic solution, it is already in place. The admins/mods of lemmy.ml are acting in questionable ways and people are pointing this out and some are even trying to rally to defederate and trying to get people to move off the instance and all that. This is the systematic solution. The system is working as intended.
But again that fractures the community.
You lose all the community history, and not everyone migrates to the new community. You end up with a bunch of new splinter communities, none of which have critical mass to survive.
You can’t have decentralisation without the possibility of some amount of fracturing. I mean decentralization is essentially fractured by design. I think this won’t be such a big problem in the future as instances and communities mature more.
I don’t necessarily agree that decentralized is fractured by design, nor that “working as intended” means that it’s the best solution for this/every situation.
I’m saying that as we decentralize, we get both advantages and disadvantages. I’m saying that this is a situation where we can’t both have our cake and eat it too.
For example:
We could decentralize communities themselves, preventing them from fracturing. Instead of having communities hosted on a single instance, communities could be feeds aggregating all posts tagged as belonging to that community. Then if you defederate an instance you simply stop seeing posts from users in that instance.
But then good-faith mods are defanged and can no longer protect vulnerable community members from antagonistic actors.
I think my straw example tradeoff is a bad one, that’s too much decentralization of power.
Man do you know how many instances exist? I hate this idea of trying to coordinate defederation across all bigger instances all at once. You have the option of migrating to an instance which is already defederated from them, or hosting your own instance and defederating from whoever you want. You can also mute them. Don’t come to a decentralized network with the expectation of imposing centralized decision making behaviour?
No it doesn’t. Centralization would make it so that if there are bad mods, you would have nowhere to go instead. That’s how reddit is - if you don’t like the mods in a subreddit, tough luck.
Decentralisation helps by providing alternatives if the existing mods/admins go bad.
I actually already discussed that if you go back and read the comment that you’re replying to
And thus the inherent dichotomy of a decentralised social network is revealed: social networks require the network effect for good senses of communities which means one instance will end up hosting most of the bigger communities, therefore true decentralisation can’t occur on Lemmy but it’s a step in the right direction.
I think all instances need to defederate. This is totally inexcusable. We shouldn’t be attached and well connected to a CCP-controlled (influenced or directly) community. This is propaganda, pure and simple.
It’s not a problem to have dissenting opinions to widely held beliefs, but it is a problem to have those injected constantly into our streams while all opposition is silently erased and curated to artifically support state-sponsored CCP propaganda.
How about something like elections? A community could vote to change its “base instance” to another instance. Example, ask lemmy community vote to change from .ml to .world. It’s possible to do this by just not posting in the “old community”, so maybe community cloning and community hopping could be the solution.
This just wouldn’t work.
Most mods wouldn’t willingly hold an election that potentially saw their fief moved away from their control.
Also most communities just aren’t that organised. Like if today everyone decided to move, tomorrow everyone would still visit and participate in the old community.
The “election” is perpetual. People will vote with their participation.
As it should always be.
The old cowardly “rule 1” violation. Why not just filter their garbage from your feed and be done with it?
Perhaps I don’t really understand - looking at the world news community on lemmy.ml rule 1 seems to be about only posting links to news articles. None of the things on the mod log screenshot look like news articles. Isn’t this the mods doing their jobs correctly?
The OP’s situation seems completely different to this and it’s definitely a problem - what am I missing about the rule 1 stuff though?
Rule 1 probably refers to lemmy.ml site-wide rule 1, not the community rules.
It’s not the community mods abusing their power, it’s the admins of .ml. Their rule #1 is ‘no bigotry’, which sounds nice but gets interpreted in very… creative ways.
Thanks!
I missed the site wide rules.
Yeah, that sort of rule requires a lot of faith in the moderators. Seems like they’re probably violating it themselves with their moderation.
“Rule 1” is a vague rule that allows them to delete anything they want. It’s a well-known thing they do there. They don’t even deny it.
Over the past year on Lemmy I have witnessed a constant fight between people on hexbear, lemmygrad, and ml and people on communuties like tankiejerk, meanwhileongrad, and the like.
Both appear to constantly brigade and overmoderate their respective areas of control. Since my instance: sh.itjustworks, is some combination of defederated to hexbear and lemmygrad, I mostly just see threads like these complaining about tankies. I only assume the effort is being matched by those instances I don’t see to warrant this problem being so persistent.
So to me there’s so much active bad faith behavior between the camps I assume they all just have a paranoid view of the fediverse and are mostly just perpetuating a cycle of bad faith. Maybe that relationship is terminal if just people can’t handle each other.
One side argues “maybe we should be authoritarian buttholes and quietly silence dissent on our website of 10,000” and the other side replies “don’t be an authoritarian butthole or we’ll make fun of you in our community of 200.” I’m not impartial in this, but historical revisionism and whataboutism serving the cause of spreading propaganda is generally not the right direction. Looking at the result of both actions is a decent method for determining what you’d like to support or stifle.
Will the actions of the .ml admins, course unaltered, produce an environment that you’re willing to post and interact with? For me, the answer is a big no.
The fundamental source of conflict is that developers of Lemmy, who are also admins of .ml, describe themselves as marxist-leninist. Their very allowed existence is a conundrum for some, regardless of what they do.
So there is absolutely interest in the elimination of instances like .ml from the Fediverse, especially as things like Meta’s Threads moves in to centralize communities and standardize discussioms so everything can start aligning with thr valuation of their investment.
Your conspiracy theory accusing Meta of being responsible for lemmy.world users wanting to defederate from lemmy.ml is ridiculous. Nobody forced lemmy.ml moderators to block people who criticize China, Russia, or Marxism-Leninism from all of their communities.
These lemmy.ml moderators made these bad choices all by themselves without Meta’s help, and lemmy.world has the right to exclude those communities through defederation so that no lemmy.world user has to worry about whether their comment to a front page post goes against a lemmy.ml moderator’s political ideology.
I don’t think they were trying to propagate a conspiracy, just provide an example of a possible outcome with respect to, “mainstream social media”
I was more responding to the person from threads with that line. But I was more identifying a convenient alignment than a conspiracy to act.
I mean there are Lemmy communities with discord servers dedicated to brigading tankies and falsifying interactions on places like .ml. One of those communities is on my instance and comes up on my feed constantly. But I will admit that I have not seen that effort from Threads.
But nonetheless, since it is a fair assumption any thread with the word ‘tankie’ in it is going to go off the rails: I am not suggesting .ml admins and their mods aren’t overblowing their interactions or bringing a lot of this onto themselves. They’re just as mired in bad faith as the next poorly run community or instance. I am just saying I am not surprised by it.
Who’s from threads?
:|
You’ve misread the situation entirely. The most active community admin on our instance has described themselves as being staunchly pro-communism and it hasn’t evolved into a slap fight because they’ve been gently pursuing the goal of proliferating their views. Kind person, no clue how they tolerate the internet.
On the other hand, I’ve been hearing the same complaints about the Lemmy devs for like 4 years, long before META came around and before I had even tried lemmy. In this case, I firmly believe people simply dislike clandestine political chicanery and its intended goal.
So you say uou’ve heard complaints about Lemmy devs, who run the instance in question here, for four years.
That is a direct illustration of what I mean: from the start of Lemmy there’s been complaints of the devs.
As the Fediverse becomes bigger, this type of stuff isn’t going to be wanted by any entity especially not ones owned by Meta.
If you have any evidence of meta going after lemmy, I’d be keen on seeing it. Conspiracies really don’t appeal to me but I chug sauce like an Italian sex worker.
There’s no need to defederate from Lemmy.ml. I rarely see their content on the front page of Lemmy.world. The other day someone complained that Lemmy.ml users were brigading a different thread. I counted three users with a ml domain…
We have different admins and mods, everything is working as intended. The issue is people bringing up tankies, communists, and China every three posts. Yes, we get it, the benevolent people who wrote us this software are communists. They allow us to have different mods and admins, there is no problem here.
Honestly, I wouldn’t post to /c/worldnews@lemmy.ml even though I’m happy with how pro-Palestine those people are. The only community I look at Lemmy.ml is /c/linux@lemmy.ml. It’s not their fault no one posts to the Lemmy.world instance.
I think it’s time to start banning users who troll other instances and cross pollinate the fediverse with drama.
It is lemmy.ml’s fault that their moderators have been blocking users who criticize China or Russia from unrelated communities like the Linux one. A user’s ability to participate in a Linux community should not depend on them refraining from posting criticism about China or Russia. Defederation protects lemmy.world users from having to self-censor themselves politically to participate in general interest communities.
I agree 100% with this statement. That’s not enough of a reason to defederate in my opinion. We need a better /c/Linux on our instance. It’s just that Lemmy.ml has more FOSS lovers.
Defederating sends a message that the world doesn’t like tankie bullshit
Hating their opinion is not a reason to defederate. Legitimate reasons are general harrasment (stalking specific individuals), racism, bigotry, CP, derailing entire threads (not just disagreement on a comment), etc.
Is genocide denial not racism?
Yes, it is. Which genocide are they denying? Is it the Uyghurs?
This is the fediverse and that is their instance. You just move to another instance and mute them if you are desatisfied with them.
Or post about it and build a case for defederating from them or more users to block them individually.
Exactly. Why are we federated with people who deny genocides? Fuck all of that
Exactly, not only did I block LML over this but I vote for defederating with them from my home instance.
I am one of the removed comments and just found out about it here. Does the Lemmy standard really not send direct messages to users when one of their messages was removed? If it was an actual Rule 1 violation (which of course, it wasn’t) I’d like to know.
There is no “lemmy standard”. There is ActivityPub though. Lemmy could maybe implement something to send an ActivityPub message when something is removed but this has not been done yet. I think there is an issue for it on GitHub though?
Yes there is an open issue on Github for moderation notifications (Get notified when you’ve been banned, your post has been removed, etc): https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/4572
Mods will never tell you that you’ve been moderated.
Mods are generally fieflords exercising their mediocre powers for kicks. It wouldn’t be much fun if they had to have a discussion with all of the poors about why they’ve been censored.
Might be time to pull a “body cam policy” and take the fun out of moderating.
meh. I don’t think anyone is that interested.
Not all mods are like that, for the record. I’d even say it’s the minority of mods that are like that (at least on the Fediverse - on reddit, I’m not so sure).
Disagree.
In my experience ist the vast majority of mods on any platform. Lemmy has some of the worst in my experience.
Yep. When the power shifts to user (as opposed to Reddit’s corp power) it gives more freedom for abuse since there’s no longer centralized control
Power trip is one of the biggest issue – ‘THIS IS MY INSTANCE NOW BEGONE YOU INFIDELS!’
And that’s an issue with the instance system, losing access to tons of communities you have no problem in because you happened to piss off the instance’s admin in a community they frequent? That’s completely ridiculous.
Saying anything negative about China is a violation of rule 1 on lemmy.ml from the admins perspective. They classify anything critical that gains any attention as Sinophobia and file it under bigotry.
It honestly reminds me of fascists saying that harsh criticism of Israel is inherently antisemitic. It’s a dishonest rhetorical game.
I’ve been making fun of Lemmy.Ml for months, I’m glad to see I’m not the only one
made a community rn !de_ml@lemmy.blahaj.zone
Amazing.
I agree with the sentiment of your post and I won’t comment on the other posts that were banned but your image turns into hardcore gore half way through. Like hanged burned bodies and people leaking their brains.
Maybe it was removed for the wrong reason but it’s not as innocent as you make it seem.
Like “how dare you actually show the atrocities my Chinese overlords committed in a way that can’t be denied” ?
Ya it’s a fine line I guess but any kind of gore goes directly into the “can be removed” category in my opinion. I fully understand if some mods want to keep the link up and some mods don’t and I won’t be judging either camp.
I’m just commenting on the fact that you specifically don’t really have a right to complain but that being said, the other posts that were deleted probably didn’t have gore in them.
If you wanna educate people on the events in Beijing around the tiananmen square protests, the Wikipedia page has a decent overview of the scientific consensus, what is established to have happened, and what is not. What you shouldn’t do is give some random Imgur post with unsourced claims and gore images to shock people into embracing the narrative you want to push
I was actually banned for linking to the wiki about the Uyghur genocide and the death toll estimates from the Great Leap forward. It’s not about the gore, it’s about them trying to distance public understanding of the true horror and extreme violence that took place at Tiananmen etc.
The CCP’s objective for at least the last decade or two has been trying to make the government in China apoear “normal”. Before this latest era people understood clearly that China was extremely authoritarian, but that understanding is being eroded as the CCP puts up a civilized facade, when that’s not the reality – they’re still brutalizing people it’s just so horrifyingly systematic and industrialized that you can’t even see it on the surface anymore due to how they doggedly chase information and dissidents.
They achieve this by downplaying events like Tiananmen, invasion of Tibet, Uyghur genocide, brutalization of HK etc. They exercise the most extreme measures to silence dissidents even when they are in other countries, and they repeat over and over again how the west is “just as bad!” until it becomes background noise. Having tankies modding communities helps supercharge this effort by allowing them to remove anyone who confronts that narrative, leaving only what they want people to see.
If this was an isolated case, I would also give the benefit of the doubt like you say here. Unfortunately there’s a clear pattern when it comes to moderator and admin actions on lemmy.ml which makes me think it has nothing to do with the gore.
The solution is… to abandon the notion that there’s some special utopia where we might reside.
There’s an idea that we all need to find or build some special platform which is going to be a home for all our communities and be transparent and balanced and free from corporate influence and perpetually shiny and awesome. It’s not only unachievable but probably not desirable either.
Instead, embrace the reality that the communities we want to engage with will be in different places on different platforms and each will have different issues.
There’s some niche communities on reddit, and yes that platform is run by a corporation but that doesn’t bother me when I’m only there to find a new recipe for snack that matches my diet requirements. I despise facebook but I do use their marketplace to sell junk my wife buys online. I’m aware of the privacy issues with telegram but that’s where I have a family chat group with my sisters. I recently discovered an XMPP channel about DIY bike maintenance which has been amazingly helpful, but I don’t like the XMPP clients I’ve tried. The forum on a torrent tracker I use is a great place to find new books to read but I need to use a VPN to access it.
My point is, the best part of the modern web is the disparate platforms we have available. Every platform has it’s own character, and caveats to be mindful of.
The kind of censorship you’re talking about is obviously repugnant, but the reality is that it’s just something to keep in mind when participating in lemmy.ml communities. You can refuse to participate there if you wish, but a mass-exodus on that basis just isn’t how things should work in 2024.
Why not? You’ve made an assertion without any reason backing it up.
Nobody’s suggesting a mass exodus to a single lemmy server, but rather just a dispersal from .ml to the rest of the fediverse. There’s no reason it can’t or shouldn’t happen.
It’s as though you only read the last sentence of my comment
I’ve read it multiple times. None of it quite addresses why we can’t just move communities away from .ml en masse. From the votes I’m not the only one having trouble discerning your point.
Good lord. If you think lemmy votes are an indicator of solid reasoning I don’t know what to tell you.
Communities aren’t going to move away from lemmy.ml because no one cares enough about this issue.
You can dream that that’s how communities ought to work but they just don’t.
So your wall of text boiled down to ‘we can, but we won’t because nobody cares’. That’s pretty different from ‘that’s not how things should work in 2024’.
Ironically, that’s how most of us ended up here on lemmy, we as a community decided to move off reddit.
We didn’t migrate “as a community”. All the same communities still exist on reddit.
Lol if ‘annoying internet personality’ were a person it’d be that guy lol
LOL I’m sorry my opinion is so annoying LOL.
Tankies gonna tank. Just block their shit instance and move on with your life.
The issue at hand is there are way too many neutral / unrelated communities which are resident on .ml, and it’d be nice if we could manage to move some of them off.
You can. Create a new community and tell the most active people in the original about it. Once everyone posts in the new comm you’re done.
It’s not like it hasn’t been done before.
Well yes, that’s what this entire post is about. My comment is just replying to OP that it’s a little bit more than ‘block and move on’.
Ten forward is a good example, the big posters in c/risa got fed up with the mods and made ten forward on Lemmy.world. Now I almost never see risa anymore but ten forward is always on the front page.
That was exactly the comm I had in mind!
The thing is, the Fediverse, link the original concept of the Internet is flexible and can survive losing nodes - it just routes around and issue. If there are problems it can mutate and survive.
This is the best solution - the answers are in our hands. Communities only thrive because the users are.posting and interacting on it. If the Mod goes inactive or an instances goes down, we can switch to a new community. That then gains the momentum and goes on to thrive. It’s survival of the fittest and why having more than one community on a topic (especially big topics) is a feature not a bug because it gives the network flexibility and resilience.
So if there’s an issue with lemmy.ml, boycott it - unsubscribe, give the other communities on more agreeable instances your time and they will grow and prosper. If there isn’t a relevant alternative start one.
Lemmy prevails.
This is a good answer and probably the right solution (still not 100% convinced defederating isn’t, ultimately, going to be the answer though).
But your Jane/Joe Average User doesn’t look to see which instance that
pr0ncute picture of a cat holding a teddy bear is on. They probably don’t even understand the concept of different instances showing content from others. Hell I’ve been online since 1992 and it took me a couple of days to get my head around it when I joined.So I think we need some kind of step by step “If you see X, then do Y” sticked to the instances that care about this for the people who (like me) do care about this issue.
It may be, but only as a last resort.
Yes, the map of thr Fediverse needs “here be dragons” sprinkled around.
There is the problem of network effect though. People who frequent communities on lemmy.ml are often blissfully unaware of how problematic that instance is, like I was until a few days ago, and so they’re unlikely to just move as they have no immediate reason to.
It’s easy to say just pack up and move … but I’ve been really struggling to find an alternative for !linux@lemmy.ml, to name one example. The equivalent communities !linux@lemmy.world and !linux@programming.dev are rather stale with days old posts without comments.
So I think it’s not just something an individual user can solve for themselves, and I think that the larger instances also have a role to play here. If they would defederate from lemmy.ml, it would urge users along to move away from lemmy.ml communities towards communities on other, more suitable instances.
Next to that, we should also spread awareness about the lemmy.ml problem, and that was my intent when I originally made this post.
!linux@programming.dev now has 983 weekly active users: programming.dev/post/15328354
People have choices. If they want to keep using the Lemmy.ml community, that’s their freedom. The alternatives exist, if they want to switch, they can.
Intrigued by your name change, you are really pushing for this.
Because network effect is a thing, it’s really the illusion of choice. When a lemmy.ml community has 50k subscribers and the equivalent lemmy.world or programming.dev community has just a tenth of that, it’s not really a choice. People will always gravitate towards ml and the smaller community will never gain critical mass unless some strong enough outside force influences that decision.
Which brings me to …
I think defederation from lemmy.ml together with raising awareness about ml should be the outside force to move communities off lemmy.ml.
Same link
lmao get back to me when the mods on lemmy.world stop deleting every comment that is critical of Biden. STFU. There is no recourse for mods on Lemmy and they can use their powers to delete any comments they want. The only recourse you have is to find a fediverse that caters to your weakass centrist views.
If anyone cares to check my comment history they’ll find a crapton of rebuttals to anti-biden comments that were NOT deleted by anyone.
So the pro-Biden comments are staying up? Exactly like I said ? lmao
I’m all for defederating from tankie instances. They suck.
Yes, we should all recognize that Lemmy.ml is a tankie instance.
Reread OP
You just made me realize that I have been banned from some of the communities over there while never having posted on them, mods are reading conversations in other communities and preemptively banning people…
Ah reminds me of good ol’ reddit
Oh, boy. Back to the old Reddit patterns. How long before they start using bots to preemptively ban anyone who has ever posted on certain communities regardless of context as a time saving measure, because that was a thing on Reddit as well?
Any idea which subs are banning like that already?
Bingo.
I honestly thought it was more along the lines of they read a comment/post from another community that they didn’t like, more than likely checked their history and then decided to ban them.
No, we want EVERYONE to feel welcome.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f875b0d5-b30e-470f-8a7d-3b665bdf7418.jpeg">
wait, so if someone is a Nazi, you want us to be respectful of them too? you’re falling into the tolerance paradox again. “EVERYONE” here shouldn’t really include the intolerant. if the intolerant feel welcome in a space, that space quickly becomes inhospitable to anyone who isn’t.
edit: yeah i misread the image and the intent of the comment. apologies.
I feel like you’re not understanding the image
.
Tankies warming up to call you and Lemmy.World fascists in 3, 2, 1…
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/956332a9-1a24-4692-b35b-55ca93997656.webp">
Tankies: The word ‘tankie’ is meaningless because it gets overused by disingenuous people on the right.
Also tankies: Everyone who criticizes my position is right-wing.
Every word used by disingenuous people on the right becomes “useless” - freedom, patriot, Christian, help, law, order, justice, democracy, Constitution, agreement, good, bad - you name it, they twist it into a 100% polar opposite of what it used to mean before they got their hands on it.
So at some point, I think perhaps they should not be in charge… of what words “mean”? :-P
That said, ‘tankie’ is pejorative so perhaps we can find a better one for that different reason. I don’t know what, or for sure that a pejorative is bad, but maybe “authoritarian”, totalitarian, or fascist seems accurate - as in not beholden to “principles” so much as whoever holds the power gets to do whatever they want.
They also sometimes overuse the word “ultra”, but instead of “right wing” they use the word “reactionary”, to be compliant wit soviet aesthetics I suppose.
Pretty sure they are creating alt accounts on non-tankie instances.
They are. Many usernames are strangely familiar despite being relatively new accounts, and there’s often a matching .ml or Hexbear user. They know their nonsense is unwelcome.
Tankies are modding many communities here as well. The solution is to fight them tooth and nail.
Oh they are all over the politics communities. Both as mods and as trolls.
Semi-O/T
There’s censorship just for having a different opinion. When you challenge someone’s belief in any subject… or just simply have a disagreement, you’re getting banned. Lemmy is following in the foot steps of Reddit in the sense that it appears that the left/progressives want to be segregated and keep the division. No dialogue, no meeting in the middle… just ban anyone who threatens their bubble.
Gaslight. Obstruct. PROJECT.
I mentioned elsewhere but here’s a copy and paste:
It is far more than just that. Removing comments is one thing, mass-banning from many communities at once despite never even having commented in them at all is another, but the real issue is using database manipulation to delete the log entries as to why the comments were removed after the fact.
Even if unintentional, which strains credulity, this is some spez-level stuff going on, where we have the option to either take what a single person (who does not seem inclined to follow their own stated rules) offers, or else we can leave. Many are choosing the latter, and like the Rexodus, making the situation known to others as well in the process.
“Criticizing China” was merely the spark that lit the match, with the situation offering proof of what apparently people have been suspecting for some time now.
💯
I would suggest trying to get out of the english-language (American-centric) internet bubble with respect to dialogue, “challenging beliefs” and the broader nature of what you consider to be censorship.
Focus on real-world (internet can be a red hearing) examples of cases (particularly in Asia, Africa but Europe and LATAM too) that contradict your statements around “just ban anyone who threatens their bubble”.
Then consider the what are the real world consequences of tankie propaganda, again better to avoid US narratives/examples. Just try a good faith approach to this question.
I have no idea what you’re suggesting… but just about the entire non-western world laughs at Reddit-type leftists because they can’t come to terms with reality. So much so they (Reddit-type leftists) refuse vehemently to acknowledge that it is their feelings that they’re putting before facts of life. Refuse facts, refuse reality.
Perhaps I misunderstood your post, were you referring to the actions of lemmy.ml mods or the proposal to avoid lemmy.ml communities?
This seems like a by design thing.
Note that this is likely just an automated script to ensure all your comments are removed from lemmy.ml before being sitebanned, as sitebanning doesn’t remove all content.