True, but Bethesda not only embraced modders with open arms—they encouraged them! You can’t say the same for most other game devs; the majority either ignore modders like they’re pests or, worse, are outright hostile towards them.
Well except for that part where the native mod tools suck ass and every creation club update breaks a bunch of mods
ICastFist@programming.dev
on 13 Nov 14:23
collapse
Their “open arms” has felt like a vampiric embrace for almost a decade now, because they would really, really, really prefer if modders released stuff via their club, where modders can get money and they also get a slice for free.
The bigger PC names of the 90s and early 2000s were all welcoming to modding, with some games shipping with the “official editor tools” for anyone to mess around with (UT99 and Warcraft 3 come to mind)
But it holds up thanks to the mods that are available for it now. Mods which are all developed by not-Bethesda. Vanilla Skyrim doesn’t hold up in 2024, modded Skyrim does.
BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee
on 11 Nov 21:56
nextcollapse
really? hmm weird, because 95% of my playthroughs are unmodded, and i still play it regularly. i would be extremely shocked if im the only one in the world not using mods
and hell, before mods were on consoles there were STILL plenty of people playing it
Skyrim is a classic game, and there are always going to people playing it, like there will always be people playing Half Life 2, Mario and Tetris. But I think what makes Skyrim stand out is that it’s still exciting a decade later because it’s still changing and improving. Amazing groups of people are dragging that game into every new generation and changing it in every way imaginable. It has infinite replay value. So it has the draw of just being a great vanilla game but also the benefit of mods. It’s safe to say it wouldn’t be anywhere near as popular today without the huge library of mods.
i disagree with the last point. mods definitely helped, but skyrim was a complete cultural phenomenon even to people who had no idea what mods even were. it was extremely highly praised and sold great on consoles. i think it would have been a classic regardless
I agree it would have been a classic without the mods. What I’m saying is it’s better than a lot of other classics, as a gaming experience, because of the mods.
skyrim is ever lasting, if there is no skyrim is heaven then it isn't heaven
DontMakeMoreBabies@lemm.ee
on 11 Nov 15:52
nextcollapse
Starfield was boring as hell and now they’re too scared to try ES6 (because it’ll be garbage).
I would love to be wrong…
ampersandrew@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 15:55
nextcollapse
They’re not too scared to make Elder Scrolls VI. It’s their next project. It’s just not coming until probably 2028 at the rate they’ve been working lately, and it’ll feel 15 years out of date this time instead of only 10.
CleoTheWizard@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 21:37
collapse
What’s really crazy is to compare Bethesda with CDPR. I’ve been replaying the Witcher 3 and it just struck me how I won’t have to wait 15+ years for the next entry. And to look at how much more efficient they’ve been in the past.
For a timeline, Witcher 2 released in May 2011 and then the Witcher 3 released in May 2015. Took 3.5 years to develop. Cyberpunk released December 2020, only 4.5 years after W3 had its last major DLC. Then in 2023 they released a very large update for Cyberpunk, about 2/3rds the runtime of the main game. And then in 2025 we’ll probably get the next Witcher game. They have like 3 games in active development now.
So what’s the difference with Bethesda? Well Skyrim sold 30 million units and Witcher 2 sold about 8 million. Less than a third the income. Yet if you compare CDPRs staff to Bethesdas at time of their next games, CDPR had doubled Bethesda’s work force. And guess what happened? Witcher 3 sold 40 million while fallout 4 sold 25 million. Thats despite Witcher 3 costing an estimated $81 million while Fallout 4 sits closer to 1.5x that at $125 million.
Then you talk about engines and it gets even worse. CDPR arguably started with a worse engine and I shouldn’t need to explain how much they’ve destroyed BS in that regard as well. Witcher 2 looks worse than Skyrim by a lot imo. But by the time their next game rolled around, it was an industry leader in graphics. And cyberpunk 2077 is like the next Crysis now while starfield is… oh boy. And guess what? After all that work on their engine, they abandoned it. Why? Because their resources are better spent making games and systems in an engine someone else updates for them. Bethesda meanwhile not only can’t juggle the ball of updating an engine and game dev, but they’re not even smart enough to swap engines.
Bethesda has all the signs of a dying studio and Microsoft is the sucker for buying them. And it’s a waste of talent more than anything. Talented people exist at Bethesda whose resources and career development would be far better off being applied on UE4.
ampersandrew@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 23:06
nextcollapse
Given the technical problems with Cyberpunk at launch, I don’t know that it’s a great idea to champion them. Both studios have had a similar release cadence in the same time periods.
When Microsoft bought Bethesda, they bought Zenimax, which includes far more than just the likes of Elder Scrolls.
I swear people forget how atrocious the cyberpunk 2077 launch was.
all-knight-party@fedia.io
on 12 Nov 09:32
nextcollapse
It's almost created this double underdog scenario for CDPR. First, they released Witcher 2 and then 3, where their game quality jumped incredibly drastically from the first game.
Then they brought their reputation crashing down to earth on Cyberpunk's release, but fixed the game well enough that it now feels like an underdog overcoming odds in the public memory. They've basically fully recovered their public image, which I'm unsure if they deserve. People can like how it turned out now, but they shouldn't forget.
Yeah they fixed it up pretty good and I think that’s why people moved on. Just pretty bad for the Playstation fans considering it unlaunched from the ps4 until the following year while the ps5 was still unobtainium.
skulblaka@sh.itjust.works
on 12 Nov 16:51
collapse
On machines that were actually strong enough to run it, it was mostly fine. I played on PC and while I admit the later balancing update was probably necessary, I didn’t run into most of the real nasty bugs people liked to talk about. I had a great time putting in 100 or so hours in version 1.
A solid 80% or more of all the problems Cyberpunk had at launch stemmed from trying to launch it on last-gen consoles. It absolutely was not intended for PS4 or XB1 and targeting those platforms was a mistake. Once they pulled availability for those and buckled down on getting it prettied up for next gen, the quality jumped by a mile within the next year and a half of updates.
The launch was rough, I grant you that, and maybe I’m just simping for CDPR but even at the time I was in the vocal minority saying, hey this game really isn’t that bad if you give it a chance and run it on hardware that it was intended for.
And of course now with its updates and DLC it’s just genuinely a great game.
icecreamtaco@lemmy.world
on 12 Nov 03:04
nextcollapse
Witcher 1 using the NWN engine is still hilarious to me
CleoTheWizard@lemmy.world
on 12 Nov 04:27
collapse
I actually didn’t know this but I did play through that recently and I actually have really good things about how that game looks even to this day. I know they did some touching up and I’m assuming updated textures for the enhanced version but it aged a lot better than many other games from that era did
This is, more than likely, exactly what will end up happening.
They know Creation Engine is not fit for the task. They know the writing is stale and uninspired. They know that it’ll more than likely be aimed towards mainstream success, rather than being a good rpg, making it even more simplified.
I really hope i’m wrong, but I’m not holding my breath for TES6 anymore
acosmichippo@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 16:15
nextcollapse
wasted too much time on starfield, FO76, and mobile games. that’s all they have released since 2018. and if you don’t count VR editions or special editions then you’re back to 2016 with FO4.
8 years of junk. They could have made TWO elder scrolls in that time.
TheFeatureCreature@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 16:24
nextcollapse
They can take as long as they want. After Starfield, I have zero confidence that TES6 will be any good. Bethesda has some serious issues they need to sort out with their production pipelines and methodology and they need to rethink how they approach story-driven open world experiences.
Every time I see a Starfield video and see the camera turbozoom in on a character as they deliver a forced, robotic line with terrifying facial animations - I get teleported right back to 2006. It is very obvious this studio does not know what they are doing and has learned little from their previous releases and from other contemporary games.
Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 16:46
nextcollapse
I think they really don’t believe in storytelling in the way traditional game writers do. They think enough simulation can replace good writing.
Personally I’m certain they are wrong, and it’s tragic that they own the Elder Scrolls IP.
Simulation? What? That's the one aspect that has been gotten worse with every Bethesda title. Their storytelling was always garbage. I never finished the main quest in Skyrim even, and the one in Oblivion was trash, the one in Morrowind barely existing. This was never the strong suit of their games.
I don’t agree that all of it has always been trash, but the quest writing mostly always has. For your Skyrim example, I went to the midnight release. I completed the main quest within a 24h period IIRC and I remember just being incredibly disappointed. I haven’t finished it again since. Honestly, Skyrim in general is a letdown besides the world they built, although they could have done a lot more to make it more interesting and feel more lived in and real instead of an amusement park.
Their writing in the past has been really strong in world building. They’ve had really interesting lore and reasons for us to be doing what we’re doing. Most of the people who did that are gone now though, and they have been for a while, so I don’t expect it in the future.
Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 23:11
nextcollapse
I should have said more, for once. I meant simulation more to describe the Bethesda house style, which seems to be this idea that having apples that can roll around on a table or whatever is immersive and engaging enough that you don’t need Michael Kirkbride hanging around putting weird metaphysical shit all over the place, actually. I wasn’t saying they were good at it, only that it appears to be what they think.
Hot take, Michael Kirkbride carried TES lore. Even the interesting parts of Skyrim is based from his writing.
TheFeatureCreature@lemmy.world
on 12 Nov 16:45
nextcollapse
Agreed. TES just hasn’t had good world design and lore since Morrowind. If I remember correctly, he also wrote much of the books in the TES universe which are still used in Skyrim.
ESO might be an exception. I don’t think it has the best writing but it does have much more interesting lore and world design than Oblivion and Skyrim.
ESO has interesting stuff in it. Some of the basic quests in each region are written pretty well, or at least are entertaining. They need some of those writers on the ES6 team to at least have a baseline.
1SimpleTailor@startrek.website
on 12 Nov 19:46
collapse
I mean it’s not really a hot take since it’s been the consensus among long-time TES fans since 2006. Shivering Isles is the only good lore/story contribution TES has had without Kirkbrides involvement, and even that was basically just trying to Mantle his style from Morrowind.
PunchingWood@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 17:20
nextcollapse
I’ve said it before, and I believe that Bethesda is going to completely mess up TES6.
There are several issues with Bethesda, the major problem being they seem to have lost all creativity and they’re trying to apply the same old formula to every single game with minimal changes. Then hope that modders will keep it on life support. And sadly that’s how I found myself having to play their games, because without many mods it was often awful to play on PC, and I still didn’t have fun thanks to repetitive content and forgettable story and characters.
Another is that they’re clinging on to that damn dilapidated game engine of theirs like it’s their precious baby. It’s an awful engine, insanely outdated, limited and performs terribly. Starfield is a great example of how awful it is, but every game before that has had major performance issues and limitations as well.
The only redeeming feature might be that TES6 probably won’t be a procedurally generated world. They really showed how repetitive and boring it can get with procedural generation. And a handcrafted world would have so much more character. They could perhaps use the procedural engine for dungeons, and enemies and their bases, or items found through the world, but not the world itself.
But I’m afraid it’s just going to be a near Skyrim carbon-copy. It’ll likely be an okay looking game with an okay looking game world, but I bet gameplay will be mostly unaltered from what they’ve been doing for over 20 years. Same old basic combat, same talking heads with lifeless animations, same sneaking and magic gameplay, etc.
Well before Starfield came out they said they couldn’t make TES6 yet because the technology didn’t exist. Starfield’s development, I assume, was partially about building this technology. That makes me assume it’s the procedural generation or the ships. If the former, I doubt it’s the main game world or TES6 is fucked. I would suspect maybe something like plains of oblivion that are proc-gen or something.
To me, one of the biggest things that make Starfield feel so bad is the planets are so boring, specifically because there’s too much to do (and it’s all meaningless). Every location is surrounded by the exact same amount of points of interest. There’s no barren areas and more habituated areas. It’s all this bland uniform container of “content” with nothing making any of it stand out. Proc-gen only works when it can be used to make a lot of boring empty space with a few interesting unique things to find. I don’t think they’ve figured that out yet.
I found it extremely funny that todd said that planets are empty and boring, because irl, planets would be boring and and empty wastelands. Why do you make a boring game then todd? Are you stupid? Is that your dream game?
Imagine you can make any videogame that you want and you go: i want it to be set in the middle desert.
Oh so there are gonna be pyramids, bandits and other points of interest?
No the desert is pretty empty and boring.
Oh, sounds pretty good.
I do not understand why Bethesda fans even deal with that shit. They must laugh their asses off every time someone doesn’t refund starfield.
Honestly, I mostly agree they should be mostly empty and boring. They aren’t though. They’re absolutely full (of really boring stuff). There are no empty spaces. If there were then finding something would feel special. However, anywhere you land it shows you at least like ten points of interest nearby. I don’t think there’s anywhere on any planet that isn’t inhabited despite supposedly no one colonizing most of the planets. Every location is generic, so none of its unique and you never find anything special.
Excitement and fun is built on the juxtaposition of the opposite. If everything is equally interesting, nothing is interesting. For example, in some space games finding life on other planets is exciting, because it’s rare. In other games there’s life on nearly every planet and it’s boring because it’s not different than anywhere else. To use loot drops as an example, if every drop was a legendary, legendary drop would be boring. You need most drops to be bland common items so the legendary drop stands out.
SaltySalamander@fedia.io
on 12 Nov 00:15
nextcollapse
Well before Starfield came out they said they couldn't make TES6 yet because the technology didn't exist
It's being built on the SAME ENGINE as tes5 was built on. I think they were blowing smoke.
Unreal Engine is old as fuck too (1995). The engine doesn’t matter if they put the work in to fix the issues. The problem is they don’t seem to be making that a priority.
ICastFist@programming.dev
on 13 Nov 12:53
collapse
It’s all this bland uniform container of “content” with nothing making any of it stand out.
The big irony here is that they could damn well make weights for the procgen to create spots with dense “habitation” and others with zero points of interest. But nope, just generate a map, plop down 5-8 POI, call it a day. The “big cities” like New Atlantis stand out in the worst way possible, a small square of buildings surrounded by absolutely fucking nothing. They effectively copied the worst aspects of No Man’s Sky
Yep. It isn’t even a new thing for proc gen. That’s how it’s almost always done. You use perlin noise (usually multiple layers) to create different areas with different types of content. They just didn’t do this, except for resource patches which are the least important thing to worry about.
ProfessorProteus@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 20:06
collapse
Agreed. They need to retire that dogshit engine and write a new one. I know that’s a huge and expensive undertaking, which is why they probably won’t. TES6 will sell like hotcakes on its name alone.
I had been looking forward to TES6 for so damn long, but at this point the most exciting thing we can look forward to is the crazy glitches that speedrunners will discover. That is, if they’re not just the same glitches we’ve alll seen time and again.
acosmichippo@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 17:33
nextcollapse
ES6 will be fine. Starfield was doomed from the beginning because of the silly space exploration structure.
CleoTheWizard@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 20:51
collapse
Not if they keep on their BS. Let’s look at Fallout 4. The engine is absolutely the weakest part of the game. Can’t even keep 60fps in the city on any settings or on consoles. Frame times are all over the place. And the game isn’t even that pretty, it’s very ugly and textures are real bad. The story was pretty awful and boring, the writing in every way was forgettable.
So that’s why ES6 is screwed. It’s been downhill since Skyrim and even releasing a better looking Skyrim in 2028 on the PS6 isn’t going to cut it. It’ll be the most expensive budget title out there.
DarkThoughts@fedia.io
on 11 Nov 17:38
nextcollapse
I should have said “expansion” not DLC. I meant like another Dawnguard.
BarbecueCowboy@lemmy.world
on 12 Nov 15:51
collapse
It is very obvious this studio does not know what they are doing and has learned little from their previous releases and from other contemporary games.
I think they’ve learned that they don’t have to care about that to be successful. We have to keep reminding ourselves that success by these studios does not have to be defined by ‘making a good game’. Starfield was a great success financially and there’s no reason they should change gears from that perspective.
Starfield has made around $700 million.
BurnSquirrel@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 16:28
nextcollapse
They should release it as early access and just fix all the crap people find wrong with it
scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech
on 11 Nov 17:08
nextcollapse
TES6 isn’t real. It isn’t real. Do you see it? Is it in the room with us here?
I hate the way most of the ES fans talk and think about this. I see where the frustraition is coming from but for the most part all of the hate is baseless, you all act like you have seen even a pixel of it. Yes the last few games were not their best to say the least but i belive they had a reason for most of the fumbles. While sometimes it was just plain "we need more money" other times itwas a bit more complex with how starfield was a passion project which they made to test out the limits of their game engine. it was never supposed to be a ground braking game just a way to monotize their testing while giving the hungry fans something to play with while they wait. There is no solid proof or reason to balive that TESVI will be trash. It may not be as good as skyrim in some aspects but i belive it will at least surpass it in some other ones. Another thing which bugs me is people being angry at how long it takes them to make it while you know they did projects in between, would you reather a buggy unplayable mess now or a fully flashed out game a year or two later. The best thing to do is wait and see. Don't make it harder for everyone to be excited.
I may have missed some things in this post so if anyone wants to debate me feel free to reply!
-Cheers!
gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 12 Nov 00:07
collapse
it was never supposed to be a ground braking game just a way to monotize their testing while giving the hungry fans something to play with while they wait.
Can’t re-write history just to cope, buddy
would you reather a buggy unplayable mess now or a fully flashed out game a year or two later
Right now we don’t get either so that’s a weird 2 options to pick
ICastFist@programming.dev
on 13 Nov 14:27
nextcollapse
And considering Bethesda’s track record, we will get a buggy mess 2 years from now. I mean, just compare the list of shit the Unofficial Skyrim Patch fixes that Bethesda hasn’t addressed in 13 fucking years
They never said that it was what i said it was but i think we can all see it.
i don't get your point. yes we don't have neither but they only recently started development you act as if they have been working on it for a dacate which isn't true so my point still stands.
Thanks for engaging tho unlike the 8 people just downvoting me without giving any feedback on why i am wrong. Cheers
aesthelete@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 17:22
nextcollapse
They’ve always sucked at making games. They weren’t always successful, though. Skyrim is the goose that laid the golden egg, and they’ll be hard-pressed to repeat that success.
Skyrim will always hold a special place in my heart, it’s almost like a simpler time.
Starfield damaged Bethesda for me though. To spend 25 years on it in total and for it to be as it released was very disappointing. I mean basics like no city maps or land vehicles? Every base you come across having the same bodies in the same place with the same loot? I want to love it, they can do things I can’t even imagine (I can’t program Jack shit) but for that to be the end point of their decades of labour just doesn’t add up for me.
HowManyNimons@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 22:44
nextcollapse
Yeah, my current plan is to pass on TES6.
PolarisFx@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 12 Nov 09:36
collapse
It’s the damn engine, TES6 will be in the same engine. The same engine based on the gamebryo engine designed in 1997.
hal_5700X@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Nov 23:09
nextcollapse
I never got the big deal with Skyrim. I’m not saying it’s bad, but I don’t get why people went all crazy for it. Bethesda over streamlined the Elder Scrolls series with Skyrim for the mainstream audience. By removing and/or simplifying game systems.
EDIT You can be the leader of all the guilds with a single character. Just why?
I got super prepared for Oblivion to be as complex and difficult as Morrowind and was severely disappointed by it even at launch. Skyrim was slightly better than Oblivion in terms of mechanical complexity (dual wielding, how magic works, the forts, etc), but also even more streamlined in others (like how skills and leveling work).
I’ve played the absolute shit out of all 3 (as well as FO3, NV and 4) though. There is just some inexplicable draw to them. And it’s that very thing that Starfield lacks that had me rush the MQ and just stop playing once it was over.
Deep or not, I hated the levelling system of Oblivion with a passion. Needing to micromanage which skills I increase for each level so I can get a good attribute increase was such a micromanagement pain, especially when everything kept scaling up your level. Often I felt like I was getting weaker, not stronger, when I leveled.
I’d much prefer they replace the system with something different (like how it works in fallout 3) than what they did in Skyrim where they just carved out all the annoying bits and left barely anything behind though.
ICastFist@programming.dev
on 13 Nov 14:12
collapse
Oblivion’s leveling didn’t change from Morrowind, it also had that flaw that could really fuck you up if you didn’t optimize getting extra points in the minor skills before the major skills.
I enjoy that Skyrim made leveling up simply a matter of gaining X points across skills, but how they ditched the attributes and went for +10 on one of Health, Stamina or Magicka made it feel kinda dumb.
rickyrigatoni@lemm.ee
on 11 Nov 23:16
nextcollapse
By removing and simplifying systems they made the game more easier for random people who’ve never played a game or haven’t played since the NES. My english teacher that year was hijacking her son’s playstation just to play skyrim.
SaltySalamander@fedia.io
on 12 Nov 00:12
nextcollapse
I never got the big deal with Skyrim
I'm guessing you never played it on PC.
hal_5700X@sh.itjust.works
on 12 Nov 00:21
collapse
But I did. Also the classic “The modders will save the game.”. Man, I’m getting tired of that.
TheFeatureCreature@lemmy.world
on 12 Nov 00:53
nextcollapse
Agreed. Modding doesn’t “fix” Skyrim either. It adds surface-level content and tweaks but the fundamental bones of the game are still there and they are heavily flawed. One of the few exceptions I can think of are things like Skywind but that’s only because it removes Skyrim’s story entirely, overhauls many of its mechanics, and uses the world/lore/story of one of Bethesda’s better games.
And in the case of Starfield - it’s entirely beyond salvaging with mods. Mods will not be able to fix the biggest problems with that game because they are literally the very way the game was made. To fix them would require basically remaking the entire game from scratch.
The vanilla Skyrim is good not great, but solid. It’s the mods that make this game truly exceptional. With mods, you can shape Skyrim into whatever you want, and that’s why, I think, so many people love it.
Brumefey@sh.itjust.works
on 12 Nov 09:07
nextcollapse
I liked and hated Skyrim. Most of the dungeons seems to be copy pasted, and the world feels empty… but the game is good.
TheSambassador@lemmy.world
on 12 Nov 14:31
collapse
Most Bethesda RPGs are going for bredth instead of depth. They give you a giant world to explore and usually throw you into that world with complete freedom relatively quickly.
I generally agree that Skyrim (and Oblivion to be honest) aren’t particularly strong games when you look at pretty much any individual system, and the games don’t interest me much, but I totally get the appeal.
You might be interested to know that there are several hardcore modding scenes, where the point is to mod the game for fun. The mod guides are updated every month or so and includes thousands of mods. It takes days to install, and actually playing is optional. In most cases, a new save is required every update, so modders keep an additional playable state if they actually want to play the game.
Lexy’s LOTD is my fav one, it’s only over a thousand mods, has very detailed instructions, and a very friendly community.
We will get Skyrim re-releases 15 more times before we get an ES6 release.
SplashJackson@lemmy.ca
on 12 Nov 17:02
nextcollapse
Maybe Todd Howard the Duck will tell us what’s going on
ICastFist@programming.dev
on 13 Nov 12:43
collapse
Everything is just working
1SimpleTailor@startrek.website
on 12 Nov 19:47
nextcollapse
Reposting my comment from another thread because I’m interested in spurring discussion.
Imo Bethesda is, in many ways, a victim of its own success. Morrowind and Oblivion were both solid entries that did well critically and financially, but no one was prepared for the massive impact of Skyrim. Its success transformed open-world fantasy games into a staple of AAA gaming, and the game has stayed relevant for over a decade.
However, even when it was first released, Skyrim fell short in several areas that were often overlooked due to the sheer “wow” factor of its open world. The game is plagued by bugs, many of which are game-breaking and persist even in recent re-releases. The AI is brain-dead, melee combat is clunky, and the quest design and writing often lack depth.
In the years since, the landscape of gaming has evolved. Numerous fantasy and open-world games have improved upon things that Skyrim did well, and raised the bar for what players expect from many areas where Skyrim fell short. Players today have a wealth of games to choose from and are less forgiving of these types of flaws. Starfield’s lukewarm reception reflects Bethesda’s seeming unwillingness—or inability—to update its design philosophy for a modern audience.
The expectations for The Elder Scrolls VI have become impossible for Bethesda to meet. These expectations are sky-high not only among fans but also from Bethesda’s new parent company, Microsoft. TES6 will almost certainly be a financial success, but Microsoft didn’t acquire Bethesda for just “decent” results like Starfield; they acquired the creators of Skyrim to make blockbuster hits that dominate the charts and win critical acclaim.
In the end, Bethesda knows they will never recapture the lightning-in-a-bottle success of Skyrim. So they’ll keep sitting on the IP, until Microsoft forces them to release something mediocre, and their studio joins many of the other classic RPG developers in obscurity
kittenzrulz123@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 13 Nov 14:18
nextcollapse
Tbh I kinda hope Bethesda doesn’t make a new Fallout game, I predict if they do make a new one it’ll make Fallout 76 look like New Vegas in comparison.
Hot take: I’m fine with Bethesda taking their time to release a game if that means it’ll be higher quality. There are thousands of games released a week. Hi play something else in the meantime.
ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Nov 15:29
nextcollapse
There was a whole era of gaming from the late 90s to like 2010 where like a couple developers made something special, left, and then the company coasted on the code for a decade.
threaded - newest
To be fair, Skyrim still holds up today.
Yeah, but not thanks to Bethesda though.
True, but Bethesda not only embraced modders with open arms—they encouraged them! You can’t say the same for most other game devs; the majority either ignore modders like they’re pests or, worse, are outright hostile towards them.
Well except for that part where the native mod tools suck ass and every creation club update breaks a bunch of mods
Their “open arms” has felt like a vampiric embrace for almost a decade now, because they would really, really, really prefer if modders released stuff via their club, where modders can get money and they also get a slice for free.
The bigger PC names of the 90s and early 2000s were all welcoming to modding, with some games shipping with the “official editor tools” for anyone to mess around with (UT99 and Warcraft 3 come to mind)
this doesnt make any sense at all. they made the game
But it holds up thanks to the mods that are available for it now. Mods which are all developed by not-Bethesda. Vanilla Skyrim doesn’t hold up in 2024, modded Skyrim does.
really? hmm weird, because 95% of my playthroughs are unmodded, and i still play it regularly. i would be extremely shocked if im the only one in the world not using mods
and hell, before mods were on consoles there were STILL plenty of people playing it
Skyrim is a classic game, and there are always going to people playing it, like there will always be people playing Half Life 2, Mario and Tetris. But I think what makes Skyrim stand out is that it’s still exciting a decade later because it’s still changing and improving. Amazing groups of people are dragging that game into every new generation and changing it in every way imaginable. It has infinite replay value. So it has the draw of just being a great vanilla game but also the benefit of mods. It’s safe to say it wouldn’t be anywhere near as popular today without the huge library of mods.
i disagree with the last point. mods definitely helped, but skyrim was a complete cultural phenomenon even to people who had no idea what mods even were. it was extremely highly praised and sold great on consoles. i think it would have been a classic regardless
I agree it would have been a classic without the mods. What I’m saying is it’s better than a lot of other classics, as a gaming experience, because of the mods.
I played it vanilla first time in 2022 and it was amazing
unless you already played it and want something new.
skyrim is ever lasting, if there is no skyrim is heaven then it isn't heaven
Starfield was boring as hell and now they’re too scared to try ES6 (because it’ll be garbage).
I would love to be wrong…
They’re not too scared to make Elder Scrolls VI. It’s their next project. It’s just not coming until probably 2028 at the rate they’ve been working lately, and it’ll feel 15 years out of date this time instead of only 10.
What’s really crazy is to compare Bethesda with CDPR. I’ve been replaying the Witcher 3 and it just struck me how I won’t have to wait 15+ years for the next entry. And to look at how much more efficient they’ve been in the past.
For a timeline, Witcher 2 released in May 2011 and then the Witcher 3 released in May 2015. Took 3.5 years to develop. Cyberpunk released December 2020, only 4.5 years after W3 had its last major DLC. Then in 2023 they released a very large update for Cyberpunk, about 2/3rds the runtime of the main game. And then in 2025 we’ll probably get the next Witcher game. They have like 3 games in active development now.
So what’s the difference with Bethesda? Well Skyrim sold 30 million units and Witcher 2 sold about 8 million. Less than a third the income. Yet if you compare CDPRs staff to Bethesdas at time of their next games, CDPR had doubled Bethesda’s work force. And guess what happened? Witcher 3 sold 40 million while fallout 4 sold 25 million. Thats despite Witcher 3 costing an estimated $81 million while Fallout 4 sits closer to 1.5x that at $125 million.
Then you talk about engines and it gets even worse. CDPR arguably started with a worse engine and I shouldn’t need to explain how much they’ve destroyed BS in that regard as well. Witcher 2 looks worse than Skyrim by a lot imo. But by the time their next game rolled around, it was an industry leader in graphics. And cyberpunk 2077 is like the next Crysis now while starfield is… oh boy. And guess what? After all that work on their engine, they abandoned it. Why? Because their resources are better spent making games and systems in an engine someone else updates for them. Bethesda meanwhile not only can’t juggle the ball of updating an engine and game dev, but they’re not even smart enough to swap engines.
Bethesda has all the signs of a dying studio and Microsoft is the sucker for buying them. And it’s a waste of talent more than anything. Talented people exist at Bethesda whose resources and career development would be far better off being applied on UE4.
Given the technical problems with Cyberpunk at launch, I don’t know that it’s a great idea to champion them. Both studios have had a similar release cadence in the same time periods.
When Microsoft bought Bethesda, they bought Zenimax, which includes far more than just the likes of Elder Scrolls.
I swear people forget how atrocious the cyberpunk 2077 launch was.
It's almost created this double underdog scenario for CDPR. First, they released Witcher 2 and then 3, where their game quality jumped incredibly drastically from the first game.
Then they brought their reputation crashing down to earth on Cyberpunk's release, but fixed the game well enough that it now feels like an underdog overcoming odds in the public memory. They've basically fully recovered their public image, which I'm unsure if they deserve. People can like how it turned out now, but they shouldn't forget.
Yeah they fixed it up pretty good and I think that’s why people moved on. Just pretty bad for the Playstation fans considering it unlaunched from the ps4 until the following year while the ps5 was still unobtainium.
On machines that were actually strong enough to run it, it was mostly fine. I played on PC and while I admit the later balancing update was probably necessary, I didn’t run into most of the real nasty bugs people liked to talk about. I had a great time putting in 100 or so hours in version 1.
A solid 80% or more of all the problems Cyberpunk had at launch stemmed from trying to launch it on last-gen consoles. It absolutely was not intended for PS4 or XB1 and targeting those platforms was a mistake. Once they pulled availability for those and buckled down on getting it prettied up for next gen, the quality jumped by a mile within the next year and a half of updates.
The launch was rough, I grant you that, and maybe I’m just simping for CDPR but even at the time I was in the vocal minority saying, hey this game really isn’t that bad if you give it a chance and run it on hardware that it was intended for.
And of course now with its updates and DLC it’s just genuinely a great game.
Witcher 1 using the NWN engine is still hilarious to me
I actually didn’t know this but I did play through that recently and I actually have really good things about how that game looks even to this day. I know they did some touching up and I’m assuming updated textures for the enhanced version but it aged a lot better than many other games from that era did
Microsoft now owns the elder scrolls and fallout IP, plus everything under the smaller studios (Doom, etc). Bethesda won’t matter in the long run.
This is, more than likely, exactly what will end up happening.
They know Creation Engine is not fit for the task. They know the writing is stale and uninspired. They know that it’ll more than likely be aimed towards mainstream success, rather than being a good rpg, making it even more simplified.
I really hope i’m wrong, but I’m not holding my breath for TES6 anymore
wasted too much time on starfield, FO76, and mobile games. that’s all they have released since 2018. and if you don’t count VR editions or special editions then you’re back to 2016 with FO4.
8 years of junk. They could have made TWO elder scrolls in that time.
They can take as long as they want. After Starfield, I have zero confidence that TES6 will be any good. Bethesda has some serious issues they need to sort out with their production pipelines and methodology and they need to rethink how they approach story-driven open world experiences.
Every time I see a Starfield video and see the camera turbozoom in on a character as they deliver a forced, robotic line with terrifying facial animations - I get teleported right back to 2006. It is very obvious this studio does not know what they are doing and has learned little from their previous releases and from other contemporary games.
I think they really don’t believe in storytelling in the way traditional game writers do. They think enough simulation can replace good writing.
Personally I’m certain they are wrong, and it’s tragic that they own the Elder Scrolls IP.
Simulation? What? That's the one aspect that has been gotten worse with every Bethesda title. Their storytelling was always garbage. I never finished the main quest in Skyrim even, and the one in Oblivion was trash, the one in Morrowind barely existing. This was never the strong suit of their games.
I don’t agree that all of it has always been trash, but the quest writing mostly always has. For your Skyrim example, I went to the midnight release. I completed the main quest within a 24h period IIRC and I remember just being incredibly disappointed. I haven’t finished it again since. Honestly, Skyrim in general is a letdown besides the world they built, although they could have done a lot more to make it more interesting and feel more lived in and real instead of an amusement park.
Their writing in the past has been really strong in world building. They’ve had really interesting lore and reasons for us to be doing what we’re doing. Most of the people who did that are gone now though, and they have been for a while, so I don’t expect it in the future.
I should have said more, for once. I meant simulation more to describe the Bethesda house style, which seems to be this idea that having apples that can roll around on a table or whatever is immersive and engaging enough that you don’t need Michael Kirkbride hanging around putting weird metaphysical shit all over the place, actually. I wasn’t saying they were good at it, only that it appears to be what they think.
Hot take, Michael Kirkbride carried TES lore. Even the interesting parts of Skyrim is based from his writing.
Agreed. TES just hasn’t had good world design and lore since Morrowind. If I remember correctly, he also wrote much of the books in the TES universe which are still used in Skyrim.
ESO might be an exception. I don’t think it has the best writing but it does have much more interesting lore and world design than Oblivion and Skyrim.
ESO has interesting stuff in it. Some of the basic quests in each region are written pretty well, or at least are entertaining. They need some of those writers on the ES6 team to at least have a baseline.
I mean it’s not really a hot take since it’s been the consensus among long-time TES fans since 2006. Shivering Isles is the only good lore/story contribution TES has had without Kirkbrides involvement, and even that was basically just trying to Mantle his style from Morrowind.
I’ve said it before, and I believe that Bethesda is going to completely mess up TES6.
There are several issues with Bethesda, the major problem being they seem to have lost all creativity and they’re trying to apply the same old formula to every single game with minimal changes. Then hope that modders will keep it on life support. And sadly that’s how I found myself having to play their games, because without many mods it was often awful to play on PC, and I still didn’t have fun thanks to repetitive content and forgettable story and characters.
Another is that they’re clinging on to that damn dilapidated game engine of theirs like it’s their precious baby. It’s an awful engine, insanely outdated, limited and performs terribly. Starfield is a great example of how awful it is, but every game before that has had major performance issues and limitations as well.
The only redeeming feature might be that TES6 probably won’t be a procedurally generated world. They really showed how repetitive and boring it can get with procedural generation. And a handcrafted world would have so much more character. They could perhaps use the procedural engine for dungeons, and enemies and their bases, or items found through the world, but not the world itself.
But I’m afraid it’s just going to be a near Skyrim carbon-copy. It’ll likely be an okay looking game with an okay looking game world, but I bet gameplay will be mostly unaltered from what they’ve been doing for over 20 years. Same old basic combat, same talking heads with lifeless animations, same sneaking and magic gameplay, etc.
Well before Starfield came out they said they couldn’t make TES6 yet because the technology didn’t exist. Starfield’s development, I assume, was partially about building this technology. That makes me assume it’s the procedural generation or the ships. If the former, I doubt it’s the main game world or TES6 is fucked. I would suspect maybe something like plains of oblivion that are proc-gen or something.
To me, one of the biggest things that make Starfield feel so bad is the planets are so boring, specifically because there’s too much to do (and it’s all meaningless). Every location is surrounded by the exact same amount of points of interest. There’s no barren areas and more habituated areas. It’s all this bland uniform container of “content” with nothing making any of it stand out. Proc-gen only works when it can be used to make a lot of boring empty space with a few interesting unique things to find. I don’t think they’ve figured that out yet.
I found it extremely funny that todd said that planets are empty and boring, because irl, planets would be boring and and empty wastelands. Why do you make a boring game then todd? Are you stupid? Is that your dream game? Imagine you can make any videogame that you want and you go: i want it to be set in the middle desert.
Oh so there are gonna be pyramids, bandits and other points of interest?
No the desert is pretty empty and boring.
Oh, sounds pretty good.
I do not understand why Bethesda fans even deal with that shit. They must laugh their asses off every time someone doesn’t refund starfield.
Honestly, I mostly agree they should be mostly empty and boring. They aren’t though. They’re absolutely full (of really boring stuff). There are no empty spaces. If there were then finding something would feel special. However, anywhere you land it shows you at least like ten points of interest nearby. I don’t think there’s anywhere on any planet that isn’t inhabited despite supposedly no one colonizing most of the planets. Every location is generic, so none of its unique and you never find anything special.
Excitement and fun is built on the juxtaposition of the opposite. If everything is equally interesting, nothing is interesting. For example, in some space games finding life on other planets is exciting, because it’s rare. In other games there’s life on nearly every planet and it’s boring because it’s not different than anywhere else. To use loot drops as an example, if every drop was a legendary, legendary drop would be boring. You need most drops to be bland common items so the legendary drop stands out.
It's being built on the SAME ENGINE as tes5 was built on. I think they were blowing smoke.
Unreal Engine is old as fuck too (1995). The engine doesn’t matter if they put the work in to fix the issues. The problem is they don’t seem to be making that a priority.
The big irony here is that they could damn well make weights for the procgen to create spots with dense “habitation” and others with zero points of interest. But nope, just generate a map, plop down 5-8 POI, call it a day. The “big cities” like New Atlantis stand out in the worst way possible, a small square of buildings surrounded by absolutely fucking nothing. They effectively copied the worst aspects of No Man’s Sky
Yep. It isn’t even a new thing for proc gen. That’s how it’s almost always done. You use perlin noise (usually multiple layers) to create different areas with different types of content. They just didn’t do this, except for resource patches which are the least important thing to worry about.
Agreed. They need to retire that dogshit engine and write a new one. I know that’s a huge and expensive undertaking, which is why they probably won’t. TES6 will sell like hotcakes on its name alone.
I had been looking forward to TES6 for so damn long, but at this point the most exciting thing we can look forward to is the crazy glitches that speedrunners will discover. That is, if they’re not just the same glitches we’ve alll seen time and again.
ES6 will be fine. Starfield was doomed from the beginning because of the silly space exploration structure.
Not if they keep on their BS. Let’s look at Fallout 4. The engine is absolutely the weakest part of the game. Can’t even keep 60fps in the city on any settings or on consoles. Frame times are all over the place. And the game isn’t even that pretty, it’s very ugly and textures are real bad. The story was pretty awful and boring, the writing in every way was forgettable.
So that’s why ES6 is screwed. It’s been downhill since Skyrim and even releasing a better looking Skyrim in 2028 on the PS6 isn’t going to cut it. It’ll be the most expensive budget title out there.
Dialog camera can be disabled.
I did this for a recent attempted playthrough and vastly prefer it, maybe cos Skyrim was my first Bethesda game.
Where’s the fun slider? Mine is stuck on suck.
That’s a strange way to spell “Todd Howard” /s
STOP! YOU’VE VIOLATED THE LAW!
I just want more Skyrim dlc at this point. I have lost faith in their ability to make new games
Congrats, we’ll get nordic horse armor now
I should have said “expansion” not DLC. I meant like another Dawnguard.
I think they’ve learned that they don’t have to care about that to be successful. We have to keep reminding ourselves that success by these studios does not have to be defined by ‘making a good game’. Starfield was a great success financially and there’s no reason they should change gears from that perspective.
Starfield has made around $700 million.
They should release it as early access and just fix all the crap people find wrong with it
TES6 isn’t real. It isn’t real. Do you see it? Is it in the room with us here?
I hate the way most of the ES fans talk and think about this. I see where the frustraition is coming from but for the most part all of the hate is baseless, you all act like you have seen even a pixel of it. Yes the last few games were not their best to say the least but i belive they had a reason for most of the fumbles. While sometimes it was just plain "we need more money" other times itwas a bit more complex with how starfield was a passion project which they made to test out the limits of their game engine. it was never supposed to be a ground braking game just a way to monotize their testing while giving the hungry fans something to play with while they wait. There is no solid proof or reason to balive that TESVI will be trash. It may not be as good as skyrim in some aspects but i belive it will at least surpass it in some other ones. Another thing which bugs me is people being angry at how long it takes them to make it while you know they did projects in between, would you reather a buggy unplayable mess now or a fully flashed out game a year or two later. The best thing to do is wait and see. Don't make it harder for everyone to be excited.
I may have missed some things in this post so if anyone wants to debate me feel free to reply!
-Cheers!
Can’t re-write history just to cope, buddy
Right now we don’t get either so that’s a weird 2 options to pick
And considering Bethesda’s track record, we will get a buggy mess 2 years from now. I mean, just compare the list of shit the Unofficial Skyrim Patch fixes that Bethesda hasn’t addressed in 13 fucking years
Thanks for engaging tho unlike the 8 people just downvoting me without giving any feedback on why i am wrong. Cheers
It’s almost like they suck at making games now.
They’ve always sucked at making games. They weren’t always successful, though. Skyrim is the goose that laid the golden egg, and they’ll be hard-pressed to repeat that success.
Skyrim will always hold a special place in my heart, it’s almost like a simpler time.
Starfield damaged Bethesda for me though. To spend 25 years on it in total and for it to be as it released was very disappointing. I mean basics like no city maps or land vehicles? Every base you come across having the same bodies in the same place with the same loot? I want to love it, they can do things I can’t even imagine (I can’t program Jack shit) but for that to be the end point of their decades of labour just doesn’t add up for me.
Yeah, my current plan is to pass on TES6.
It’s the damn engine, TES6 will be in the same engine. The same engine based on the gamebryo engine designed in 1997.
Join the dark side – stop taking your pills and enjoy Elder Scrolls 6 and Titanfall 3 with the rest of us
As long as Todd can milking TES5 there’s no TES6
they are literally working on tes6 as we speak 😂
I never got the big deal with Skyrim. I’m not saying it’s bad, but I don’t get why people went all crazy for it. Bethesda over streamlined the Elder Scrolls series with Skyrim for the mainstream audience. By removing and/or simplifying game systems.
EDIT You can be the leader of all the guilds with a single character. Just why?
Even Oblivion felt too streamlined. Morrowind was too good.
I got super prepared for Oblivion to be as complex and difficult as Morrowind and was severely disappointed by it even at launch. Skyrim was slightly better than Oblivion in terms of mechanical complexity (dual wielding, how magic works, the forts, etc), but also even more streamlined in others (like how skills and leveling work).
I’ve played the absolute shit out of all 3 (as well as FO3, NV and 4) though. There is just some inexplicable draw to them. And it’s that very thing that Starfield lacks that had me rush the MQ and just stop playing once it was over.
Deep or not, I hated the levelling system of Oblivion with a passion. Needing to micromanage which skills I increase for each level so I can get a good attribute increase was such a micromanagement pain, especially when everything kept scaling up your level. Often I felt like I was getting weaker, not stronger, when I leveled.
I’d much prefer they replace the system with something different (like how it works in fallout 3) than what they did in Skyrim where they just carved out all the annoying bits and left barely anything behind though.
Oblivion’s leveling didn’t change from Morrowind, it also had that flaw that could really fuck you up if you didn’t optimize getting extra points in the minor skills before the major skills.
I enjoy that Skyrim made leveling up simply a matter of gaining X points across skills, but how they ditched the attributes and went for +10 on one of Health, Stamina or Magicka made it feel kinda dumb.
By removing and simplifying systems they made the game more easier for random people who’ve never played a game or haven’t played since the NES. My english teacher that year was hijacking her son’s playstation just to play skyrim.
I'm guessing you never played it on PC.
But I did. Also the classic “The modders will save the game.”. Man, I’m getting tired of that.
Agreed. Modding doesn’t “fix” Skyrim either. It adds surface-level content and tweaks but the fundamental bones of the game are still there and they are heavily flawed. One of the few exceptions I can think of are things like Skywind but that’s only because it removes Skyrim’s story entirely, overhauls many of its mechanics, and uses the world/lore/story of one of Bethesda’s better games.
And in the case of Starfield - it’s entirely beyond salvaging with mods. Mods will not be able to fix the biggest problems with that game because they are literally the very way the game was made. To fix them would require basically remaking the entire game from scratch.
I always thought that was a joke about modders adding in big bouncy titties and the game not having much else going for it…
also schlongs of skyrim mod sounds super important for living those exhibitionist fantasies
The vanilla Skyrim is good not great, but solid. It’s the mods that make this game truly exceptional. With mods, you can shape Skyrim into whatever you want, and that’s why, I think, so many people love it.
I liked and hated Skyrim. Most of the dungeons seems to be copy pasted, and the world feels empty… but the game is good.
Most Bethesda RPGs are going for bredth instead of depth. They give you a giant world to explore and usually throw you into that world with complete freedom relatively quickly.
I generally agree that Skyrim (and Oblivion to be honest) aren’t particularly strong games when you look at pretty much any individual system, and the games don’t interest me much, but I totally get the appeal.
TESO and Star Field?
TES:O is a different team entirely, it’s made by ZeniMax it’s only published by Bethesda.
I hate it when I forget relevant things like that.
I sometimes download Skyrim again, mod it for hours and as soon as I start a new game I realise I don’t even wanna play it.
You might be interested to know that there are several hardcore modding scenes, where the point is to mod the game for fun. The mod guides are updated every month or so and includes thousands of mods. It takes days to install, and actually playing is optional. In most cases, a new save is required every update, so modders keep an additional playable state if they actually want to play the game.
Lexy’s LOTD is my fav one, it’s only over a thousand mods, has very detailed instructions, and a very friendly community.
I just keeping modding games I actually wanna play like Rimworld or CP2077 but there’s really a scene for everyone and everything.
“Only” 12 years. FFS. “Journalism” is a joke.
We will get Skyrim re-releases 15 more times before we get an ES6 release.
Maybe Todd Howard the Duck will tell us what’s going on
Everything is just working
Reposting my comment from another thread because I’m interested in spurring discussion.
Imo Bethesda is, in many ways, a victim of its own success. Morrowind and Oblivion were both solid entries that did well critically and financially, but no one was prepared for the massive impact of Skyrim. Its success transformed open-world fantasy games into a staple of AAA gaming, and the game has stayed relevant for over a decade.
However, even when it was first released, Skyrim fell short in several areas that were often overlooked due to the sheer “wow” factor of its open world. The game is plagued by bugs, many of which are game-breaking and persist even in recent re-releases. The AI is brain-dead, melee combat is clunky, and the quest design and writing often lack depth.
In the years since, the landscape of gaming has evolved. Numerous fantasy and open-world games have improved upon things that Skyrim did well, and raised the bar for what players expect from many areas where Skyrim fell short. Players today have a wealth of games to choose from and are less forgiving of these types of flaws. Starfield’s lukewarm reception reflects Bethesda’s seeming unwillingness—or inability—to update its design philosophy for a modern audience.
The expectations for The Elder Scrolls VI have become impossible for Bethesda to meet. These expectations are sky-high not only among fans but also from Bethesda’s new parent company, Microsoft. TES6 will almost certainly be a financial success, but Microsoft didn’t acquire Bethesda for just “decent” results like Starfield; they acquired the creators of Skyrim to make blockbuster hits that dominate the charts and win critical acclaim.
In the end, Bethesda knows they will never recapture the lightning-in-a-bottle success of Skyrim. So they’ll keep sitting on the IP, until Microsoft forces them to release something mediocre, and their studio joins many of the other classic RPG developers in obscurity
Tbh I kinda hope Bethesda doesn’t make a new Fallout game, I predict if they do make a new one it’ll make Fallout 76 look like New Vegas in comparison.
Hot take: I’m fine with Bethesda taking their time to release a game if that means it’ll be higher quality. There are thousands of games released a week. Hi play something else in the meantime.
Hahahaha! That’s a good one.
There was a whole era of gaming from the late 90s to like 2010 where like a couple developers made something special, left, and then the company coasted on the code for a decade.
For me it was the Company of Heroes series.
K, but who cares anymore?