BruceTwarzen@kbin.social
on 09 Nov 2023 10:41
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I was deep into overwatch and just stopped before 2 launched. I played a bit of 2, but not that much, uninstalled and never really looked back. Just the other day i saw that they have a new tank and a new dps is following soon (?). I actually thought the very same thing. For whom do they make those heroes? Oh right, people apparently still play.
LemmyIsFantastic@lemmy.world
on 09 Nov 2023 11:07
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darganon@lemmy.world
on 09 Nov 2023 11:11
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OWL dying is a shame, I was excited for it, and right when they were about to do the games in the proper cities COVID stopped that, then whoever was asleep at the wheel let the GOATS meta run an entire season when it should have been stopped by a rule change after one match, destroying any desire to watch further.
Jumi@lemmy.world
on 09 Nov 2023 11:47
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I’m not mad, e-sports ruin games for casuals imo.
zipzoopaboop@lemmynsfw.com
on 09 Nov 2023 15:53
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It ruined Overwatch as a whole imo. Fuck role queue and fuck single tank
Jumi@lemmy.world
on 09 Nov 2023 17:21
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I prefer role queue and I’m glad that it only cost one tank to get rid of cc/stun for everyone
I like Role Queue. Single-tank was poorly thought out, I agree.
Fundamentally, I think OW copied some things from TF2 without understanding how they interact with lower playercounts. They copied TF2’s long rollouts and respawn timers, but didn’t realize that this makes death way too costly in a small-team game. In 5v5 at a good level, a single kill can basically end the teamfight. If they want to drop playercount, they need to find a way to fix that. Imho that’s why so many of their “Arcade” modes play with alternate respawning mechanics, like freezetag or the silly “StarWatch” thing.
Also they wanted big flashy ults without thinking how that interacts with the rest of the game. There’s a reason that most competitive twitch-FPS games don’t have nukes on the serious maps.
Imho, if I were running OW2?
For competitive: 4v4. 1 heal, 2dps, 1 tank. All healers share some kind of special rapid-respawn passive, like they can respawn at the Tank or something. Make up for it by reworking more DPS classes into having off-heal powers like Sombra and Soldier. Remove the rapid-respawn passive in open-queue-style games.
Nerf the ults in general. Either slower build or just lower-power. Although if you go slower-build, you need to come up with a sane way to have the charge carry between rounds, which would be tricky to get right.
For casual: 8v8. Double the 4v4. 4dps 2tank 2heal. There’s a reason TF2 played 12v12 casually and 6v6 competitively. If you’re farting around trying things out, you don’t want to be the lynchpin of your team.
Then the number of heroes and the popularity of the roles reflects the number in play - there are twice as many DPS heroes to choose from, twice as many DPS players, and twice as many on the team.
caseofthematts@lemmy.world
on 10 Nov 2023 01:09
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Now TF2 had some fun competitive matches. That takes me back.
I think you have a lot of good points here. One of the major issues is that Competetive esports meta bled into casual Overwatch.
dinckelman@lemmy.world
on 09 Nov 2023 11:54
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I always thought that competitive gaming is amazing, but competitive gaming like this will never be sustainable. For one, it relies on endless influx of people willing to spend money, and regularly watch the content. Given how little new stuff Blizzard actually made, it’s impossible to remain interested.
But let’s just take something else as an example. The League of Legends championships have been out there for like 15 years now. For the latter half of that, it’s looked a lot like insider trading and money laundering, because it’s not a competition for who wins the game. It’s a competition for whose gaming brand stays in business
albert@lemmy.sysctl.io
on 09 Nov 2023 12:05
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How would this be any different from the MLB and NFL? These sports have also remained unchanged for decades.
dinckelman@lemmy.world
on 09 Nov 2023 12:15
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It’s not. Those sports leagues suffer from the same issues. The only difference is that you rely on maintaining real people’s health to optimally perform in those games. It’s similar to having online friends, vs seeing someone locally. Yes, they’re still friends, but your body has physiological needs that you cannot trick
yamanii@lemmy.world
on 09 Nov 2023 11:57
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This was too artificial and expensive, there wasn’t a grassroots movement to make it happen
The problem with self-organizing is you get things like the Smash community, where the worst people imaginable take over the competitive level and then you’ve got a huge reputational problem on your hands. It’s a delicate balance between supporting what the community develops on its own and going top-down and forcing it.
billiam0202@lemmy.world
on 09 Nov 2023 17:06
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Reminds me of when Wargaming tried to push a World of Tanks e-sports league.
Turns out, if your players aren’t making competitive tournaments for your game on their own, it’s probably not suitable for e-sports.
BattleBeetle@lemmy.world
on 09 Nov 2023 12:56
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Noo, I love watching mirrored matches of 12 heroes for the entirety of the tournament duration, it was so much fun waiting for someone to press Q and the commentators getting hyped about it.
Jokes aside, they needed more heroes from the beginning, and instead of churning out heroes every season like OW2 does, they slowed down, ironically, because of OWL.
BruceTwarzen@kbin.social
on 09 Nov 2023 13:23
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Overwatch was such a good game to watch. I watched some matches with my girlfriend back in season 3 or so. She had never seen overwatch and had no idea what it really was. But she was super into it. I really started to dislike when Ana was released, she was the "you need that hero to win" pick. She hardly ever suffered from any nerfs, and people lose their shit when you even suggest it. When heros like roadhog get too powerful and gets any pickrate at all, he got berfed to the ground. But fine, go on. GOATS killed it for me, it's like you said, 25 hero's, but you would only ever see 6 or 7. And it was just so boring.
Imho, the problem is the reverse. The game had enough heroes, it’s just that too many existing heroes were boring, underpowered, or (if they got sufficient power) game-breaking, and so they were too hesitent to say “this power doesn’t work with our format, we should get rid of it”. Instead it was tweaking numbers. There’s a place for tweaking numbers, but when stuff fundamentally breaks your chosen format (eg. ana antiheal) you have to take a firmer hand. But they let game-breaking powers like Mercy rez ult or just too damned many barriers sit instead of saying “okay, this isn’t working, let’s throw this bad idea out completely”. But of course, gamers scream if their best girl gets touched, so they’re really hesitent to make big moves.
Plus, too many of those heroes were damage heroes considering the team can only have 2 of those.
Yewb@kbin.social
on 09 Nov 2023 13:33
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I mean I like Jeff but the OW1 eras of pretty bad gameplay and pretty long time waiting fixes happened on his watch. He designed a crazy fun game, but I think his stewardship in making it stay balanced and various and fun once you get good at it was a bit more lacking.
good_girl@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 10 Nov 2023 14:17
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The PvE pipe dream was also a result of Kaplan’s direction.
Yup. And Overwatch PVE has never been good… I know a lot of players were pumped for it, but we’ve never seen any evidence they had a good plan for how to make it fun. They had lots of zany ideas for powers and RPG elements and whatnot, but all the PVE content for Overwatch released so far has been mediocre-to-bad.
Imho telling the story through PVE has never been a good idea for OW. It’s not a PVE game. Finding some way to tell the story in PVP, even with massive ludonarrative disconnect, would have been better.
Looking back, they literally never had a good clean season. Season 1 was Mercy meta, and only branched out near the end. Season 2 was all goats until the finals where the meta did a 180. Season 3 was COVID, and after COVID they penny pinched on everything and nothing was impressive again. It was the source of so many bad decisions that only affected the actual game negatively. That’s all I remember it for being now.
Isakk86@lemmy.world
on 09 Nov 2023 14:32
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From the comments here, apparently I was the only one who really enjoyed watching OWL.
Yeah, it wasn’t perfect, yeah it always had a meta, but it was fun to watch.
Sir_Fridge@lemmy.world
on 09 Nov 2023 15:24
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I watched them live at gamescom once. Was a lot of fun!
chloyster@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 09 Nov 2023 15:30
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Sad about this. I know it’s fun to hate on overwatch, but the idea of an esports league being city based was really novel at the time. Ive always enjoyed overwatch, and despite overwatch 2s monetization being absolutely atrocious, the gameplay changes I have enjoyed for the most part
I feel the opposite. The idea felt antiquated and corporate. I dont want nationalism in my exports thanks.
chloyster@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 09 Nov 2023 16:46
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I understand your point but I don’t think city based teams have to be a toxic thing. Fandom for any team can be taken to the extreme, and I feel city based teams give fun ways to entice more people to care and have fun with it. Also, I mean pretty much every sport entity is corporate. Can’t think of any esport team that isn’t extremely corporate, city based or not.
Nah most export teams are owned by people who are passionate about it. It’s a digital medium so why limit it by some small region? Overwatch league was opposite if everything good about eaports - the international connection of a global game people are passionate about. Team Liquid (in any game) has more character than all overwatch city teams combined.
chloyster@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 09 Nov 2023 17:37
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Maybe I’m wrong. And it does seem like the manager is probably passionate about it. But please correct me if I’m wrong since I don’t know much about team liquid. I read the ownership section here and it just screams corporate to me.
Nah man you’re confusing semantics with the vibe. Obviously it e-sport teams have to be businesses but theres more passion and history in one team than whole overwatch league combined. That could never happen with city teams, well we’ve never seen it.
chloyster@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 10 Nov 2023 03:59
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Fair enough, but also team liquid has seemingly been around wayyyy longer than any of the city based teams. Of course there isn’t as much passion and history. They’ve barely been given a chance. I mean I’m not that invested in esports in general, and I’m totally willing to believe city based teams aren’t the way. But it’s something I was more familiar with and got me, someone with 0 interest in reports to care a little when I saw my city had a team. Also, not a man btw
omgaboob@lemmynsfw.com
on 09 Nov 2023 16:08
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A bit sad, but not surprising. It was always something that felt forced and only propped up by companies trying to create a new market in order to monopolize it.
If the NFL didn’t exist, then suddenly just sprung on the public as it exists now, I think it would have also suffered a similar fate.
On the player and even team level, I’m sure it felt different, but as a spectator, it was hard to ignore the top down, corporate, ad filled, “fellow kids” feel of the thing.
threaded - newest
Oh no!..
Anyway…
Aye, rankings are based on who has the costliest skin equipped, of course!
finally, a ranking we can all actually care about
.
I was deep into overwatch and just stopped before 2 launched. I played a bit of 2, but not that much, uninstalled and never really looked back. Just the other day i saw that they have a new tank and a new dps is following soon (?). I actually thought the very same thing. For whom do they make those heroes? Oh right, people apparently still play.
25M over 30D. Far more popular than lemmy 😉
Considering actually trusted statistics it’s more like 20.5k people
🙄👌 🤦♀️
Great comeback
OWL dying is a shame, I was excited for it, and right when they were about to do the games in the proper cities COVID stopped that, then whoever was asleep at the wheel let the GOATS meta run an entire season when it should have been stopped by a rule change after one match, destroying any desire to watch further.
I’m not mad, e-sports ruin games for casuals imo.
It ruined Overwatch as a whole imo. Fuck role queue and fuck single tank
I prefer role queue and I’m glad that it only cost one tank to get rid of cc/stun for everyone
I like Role Queue. Single-tank was poorly thought out, I agree.
Fundamentally, I think OW copied some things from TF2 without understanding how they interact with lower playercounts. They copied TF2’s long rollouts and respawn timers, but didn’t realize that this makes death way too costly in a small-team game. In 5v5 at a good level, a single kill can basically end the teamfight. If they want to drop playercount, they need to find a way to fix that. Imho that’s why so many of their “Arcade” modes play with alternate respawning mechanics, like freezetag or the silly “StarWatch” thing.
Also they wanted big flashy ults without thinking how that interacts with the rest of the game. There’s a reason that most competitive twitch-FPS games don’t have nukes on the serious maps.
Imho, if I were running OW2?
For competitive: 4v4. 1 heal, 2dps, 1 tank. All healers share some kind of special rapid-respawn passive, like they can respawn at the Tank or something. Make up for it by reworking more DPS classes into having off-heal powers like Sombra and Soldier. Remove the rapid-respawn passive in open-queue-style games.
Nerf the ults in general. Either slower build or just lower-power. Although if you go slower-build, you need to come up with a sane way to have the charge carry between rounds, which would be tricky to get right.
For casual: 8v8. Double the 4v4. 4dps 2tank 2heal. There’s a reason TF2 played 12v12 casually and 6v6 competitively. If you’re farting around trying things out, you don’t want to be the lynchpin of your team.
Then the number of heroes and the popularity of the roles reflects the number in play - there are twice as many DPS heroes to choose from, twice as many DPS players, and twice as many on the team.
Now TF2 had some fun competitive matches. That takes me back.
I think you have a lot of good points here. One of the major issues is that Competetive esports meta bled into casual Overwatch.
I always thought that competitive gaming is amazing, but competitive gaming like this will never be sustainable. For one, it relies on endless influx of people willing to spend money, and regularly watch the content. Given how little new stuff Blizzard actually made, it’s impossible to remain interested.
But let’s just take something else as an example. The League of Legends championships have been out there for like 15 years now. For the latter half of that, it’s looked a lot like insider trading and money laundering, because it’s not a competition for who wins the game. It’s a competition for whose gaming brand stays in business
How would this be any different from the MLB and NFL? These sports have also remained unchanged for decades.
It’s not. Those sports leagues suffer from the same issues. The only difference is that you rely on maintaining real people’s health to optimally perform in those games. It’s similar to having online friends, vs seeing someone locally. Yes, they’re still friends, but your body has physiological needs that you cannot trick
This was too artificial and expensive, there wasn’t a grassroots movement to make it happen
ESports leagues only work when they come from the community. No amount of money will make people care about a random assortment of franchised teams
Yep just give the community a good base and let them self organize. Maybe throw in a sponsorship here or there. But don’t make that shit yourself.
The problem with self-organizing is you get things like the Smash community, where the worst people imaginable take over the competitive level and then you’ve got a huge reputational problem on your hands. It’s a delicate balance between supporting what the community develops on its own and going top-down and forcing it.
Reminds me of when Wargaming tried to push a World of Tanks e-sports league.
Turns out, if your players aren’t making competitive tournaments for your game on their own, it’s probably not suitable for e-sports.
Noo, I love watching mirrored matches of 12 heroes for the entirety of the tournament duration, it was so much fun waiting for someone to press Q and the commentators getting hyped about it.
Jokes aside, they needed more heroes from the beginning, and instead of churning out heroes every season like OW2 does, they slowed down, ironically, because of OWL.
Overwatch was such a good game to watch. I watched some matches with my girlfriend back in season 3 or so. She had never seen overwatch and had no idea what it really was. But she was super into it. I really started to dislike when Ana was released, she was the "you need that hero to win" pick. She hardly ever suffered from any nerfs, and people lose their shit when you even suggest it. When heros like roadhog get too powerful and gets any pickrate at all, he got berfed to the ground. But fine, go on. GOATS killed it for me, it's like you said, 25 hero's, but you would only ever see 6 or 7. And it was just so boring.
Imho, the problem is the reverse. The game had enough heroes, it’s just that too many existing heroes were boring, underpowered, or (if they got sufficient power) game-breaking, and so they were too hesitent to say “this power doesn’t work with our format, we should get rid of it”. Instead it was tweaking numbers. There’s a place for tweaking numbers, but when stuff fundamentally breaks your chosen format (eg. ana antiheal) you have to take a firmer hand. But they let game-breaking powers like Mercy rez ult or just too damned many barriers sit instead of saying “okay, this isn’t working, let’s throw this bad idea out completely”. But of course, gamers scream if their best girl gets touched, so they’re really hesitent to make big moves.
Plus, too many of those heroes were damage heroes considering the team can only have 2 of those.
Miss you Jeff Kaplan
I mean I like Jeff but the OW1 eras of pretty bad gameplay and pretty long time waiting fixes happened on his watch. He designed a crazy fun game, but I think his stewardship in making it stay balanced and various and fun once you get good at it was a bit more lacking.
The PvE pipe dream was also a result of Kaplan’s direction.
Yup. And Overwatch PVE has never been good… I know a lot of players were pumped for it, but we’ve never seen any evidence they had a good plan for how to make it fun. They had lots of zany ideas for powers and RPG elements and whatnot, but all the PVE content for Overwatch released so far has been mediocre-to-bad.
Imho telling the story through PVE has never been a good idea for OW. It’s not a PVE game. Finding some way to tell the story in PVP, even with massive ludonarrative disconnect, would have been better.
Looking back, they literally never had a good clean season. Season 1 was Mercy meta, and only branched out near the end. Season 2 was all goats until the finals where the meta did a 180. Season 3 was COVID, and after COVID they penny pinched on everything and nothing was impressive again. It was the source of so many bad decisions that only affected the actual game negatively. That’s all I remember it for being now.
From the comments here, apparently I was the only one who really enjoyed watching OWL.
Yeah, it wasn’t perfect, yeah it always had a meta, but it was fun to watch.
I watched them live at gamescom once. Was a lot of fun!
Sad about this. I know it’s fun to hate on overwatch, but the idea of an esports league being city based was really novel at the time. Ive always enjoyed overwatch, and despite overwatch 2s monetization being absolutely atrocious, the gameplay changes I have enjoyed for the most part
I feel the opposite. The idea felt antiquated and corporate. I dont want nationalism in my exports thanks.
I understand your point but I don’t think city based teams have to be a toxic thing. Fandom for any team can be taken to the extreme, and I feel city based teams give fun ways to entice more people to care and have fun with it. Also, I mean pretty much every sport entity is corporate. Can’t think of any esport team that isn’t extremely corporate, city based or not.
Nah most export teams are owned by people who are passionate about it. It’s a digital medium so why limit it by some small region? Overwatch league was opposite if everything good about eaports - the international connection of a global game people are passionate about. Team Liquid (in any game) has more character than all overwatch city teams combined.
Maybe I’m wrong. And it does seem like the manager is probably passionate about it. But please correct me if I’m wrong since I don’t know much about team liquid. I read the ownership section here and it just screams corporate to me.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Liquid
Nah man you’re confusing semantics with the vibe. Obviously it e-sport teams have to be businesses but theres more passion and history in one team than whole overwatch league combined. That could never happen with city teams, well we’ve never seen it.
Fair enough, but also team liquid has seemingly been around wayyyy longer than any of the city based teams. Of course there isn’t as much passion and history. They’ve barely been given a chance. I mean I’m not that invested in esports in general, and I’m totally willing to believe city based teams aren’t the way. But it’s something I was more familiar with and got me, someone with 0 interest in reports to care a little when I saw my city had a team. Also, not a man btw
Good. It ruined the game.
It was always weird for me, because they seemed to be playing an entirely different game.
Good, really don’t care about everything surrounding eSports. Gamers are cringe.
A bit sad, but not surprising. It was always something that felt forced and only propped up by companies trying to create a new market in order to monopolize it.
If the NFL didn’t exist, then suddenly just sprung on the public as it exists now, I think it would have also suffered a similar fate.
On the player and even team level, I’m sure it felt different, but as a spectator, it was hard to ignore the top down, corporate, ad filled, “fellow kids” feel of the thing.