RangerJosie@sffa.community
on 14 Aug 2024 00:46
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What was so secret about it?
Cyv_@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 14 Aug 2024 01:24
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So apparently they had a bit asking players to not share info about the game, but you could technically back out of it without agreeing so legally they can post whatever they want. It feels like a case of “this is legal to do but maybe kinda shitty and valve might be upset”. Basically the agreement was informal and not enforceable and the verge just said fuck it. They did get banned afterwards, but I think that and not working with them in the future is all valve can do.
Edit: didn’t even require agreement, so honestly it’s kinda fair game. I was a bit hostile calling it shitty, I felt like it was a loophole or something but it’s more Valve just saying “hey pls don’t” and the verge replying “no thanks”, and eating the game ban since that’s all valve can really do.
deegeese@sopuli.xyz
on 14 Aug 2024 01:53
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If 10,000 people are doing something, it is NOT secret, and journalists must report on it for the general benefit of society.
Valve has their head in the clouds if they thought they could keep an informal secret among the population of a small town.
Cyv_@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 14 Aug 2024 02:18
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This isn’t some grand conspiracy it’s a closed beta for a video game. It’s pretty normal to have an NDA or embargo agreement to get access. It sounds like valve just goofed the implementation. So yeah it’s totally legal for them to post it, valve just might avoid giving them early copies in the future.
RangerJosie@sffa.community
on 14 Aug 2024 02:31
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Totally. Verge just lost their access to breaking gaming news. They’ll be blacklisted from now on.
That said, I don’t know anyone who goes to The Verge for breaking news on gaming.
KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml
on 14 Aug 2024 05:13
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Polygon is Vox’s gaming site and I imagine the shitlist will extend to all Vox properties. So the editors at Polygon now have another department to blame for their woes.
gaylord_fartmaster@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 03:12
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There is no NDA for Deadlock, and anyone in it can invite anyone they want, as often as they want. It’s not like Valve has no idea how to privately test their game. I think they made these decisions deliberately.
Cyv_@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 14 Aug 2024 03:51
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A bit of the eula says not to share info about the game, but you can literally back out without accepting the eula, and still play. So I don’t know if I’d call it intentional, but there’s definitely no legal reason they can’t post whatever they want. They just got banned for it and might have damaged their relationship with valve somewhat. Depends on how much valve cares tho.
Edit: it wasnt even a eula apparently, just a “pls dont tell people ok?” Pop up. Thanks to the folks clarifying <3
gaylord_fartmaster@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 05:12
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There’s no EULA just like there’s no NDA. That pop up and a one sentence post about not sharing info about the game on the forum is all there is.
Cyv_@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 14 Aug 2024 06:03
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Oh ok, I must’ve misread the article, thanks for clarifying :)
Don’t know why you’re getting crushed for this. It’s not even just about this particular game; one of the major players in the largest entertainment industry on the planet is doing something highly unusual. That’s in the public interest.
Lemmy users should know better, too, as The Verge was one of the leading reporting outlets on what happened on Reddit last year. Adversarial tech journalism is part of what they do.
KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml
on 14 Aug 2024 05:03
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Adversarial journalism is always spun as “journalism out of line” when this is the foundation of all journalism.
Cyv_@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 14 Aug 2024 07:13
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Yeah that’s a fair point. I was mistaken thinking it was an actual eula they bypassed because valve didn’t make it so you couldn’t just close it, but it’s not in any way legally enforceable. I thought at least it was one of those grey “technically correct but obviously an unintended loophole” kind of things, but they literally just said “pls don’t tell”. I’m mostly thinking that risking the connections you might have to valve aren’t worth a scoop on a game still in what seems to be alpha or closed beta, but if I were valve I really don’t think they can be that mad, everything the verge did was basically fair game if they were fine with a game ban.
I guess when I think of public interest I think of stuff like reddit selling user data without consent, or games using manipulative tactics. It’s hard to feel like it makes sense to be aggressive with something as benign as “game we don’t know much about yet, smells of dota/moba” But then again I’m not a game journalist, and I stand corrected.
There isn’t even an informal agreement. It simply says not to share anything. Not even “by playing this, you agree not to share anything”. It’s just “please don’t share anything” without any action required by your side.
Cyv_@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 14 Aug 2024 07:03
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Yeah, gaylord_fartmaster let me know. I thought the message was one of those “scroll down and click agree on this eula” things but its just a pop up box, so it’s def not enforceable.
Nobody is saying it’s enforceable. It’s just a shitty thing to do when someone shows you something in confidence, asks not to share it, and you publish an entire news article about it. It’s just a dick move. Obviously nothing illegal about it.
KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml
on 14 Aug 2024 05:11
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Valve got burned many ages ago with Half-Life 2 and they only go to press about a game when it’s in the final phases of development, to release.
Carighan@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 07:29
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Bullshit. The actual reason will be that this is far better marketing once you’re at a level of Valve. Shit gets leaked anyways, might as well make it intentionally so to fuel the hype cycle.
ccunning@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 00:58
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Why wouldn’t they just put journalists they gave access to under embargo?
edgemaster72@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 01:31
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It’s not clear if he actually got access from Valve or from a friend or someone else. The article simply states
Earlier today, I received a no-strings-attached invite to play Deadlock on Steam.
ccunning@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 02:43
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Ok - but they all originate from Valve, right? They couldn’t just put it behind a paywall or “NDA”wall?
edgemaster72@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 03:11
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From my understanding users of the beta can then invite others to join as well, Valve isn’t necessarily directly choosing who has access. So if Valve didn’t send the invite themselves they wouldn’t know to specifically put someone under a more strict NDA or whatnot because they’re a journalist. Could they have done more to restrict all users from sharing information? Yes, since apparently you just have to hit escape to bypass the agreement pop up, and there’s no other sort of NDA or contract or w/e in place upon joining.
I’m just speculating, but I think they chose not to do that so people could openly get their friends playing with them instead of going through waves of sign ups and hoping to get in together, or otherwise risk people losing interest when they can only play with randos. I could also see a line of thinking where you assume people want to talk about the game, so let them bring others in to play with them and that gives them someone to talk to about it too instead of just spilling the beans for randos on the internet.
ccunning@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 03:15
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That’s all I’m saying. Valve is the gatekeeper and left the gate wide open. They blew it and they’re looking for someone else to blame.
phdepressed@sh.itjust.works
on 14 Aug 2024 03:25
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Valve fucked up but the Verge still broke the social contract regardless of whether they’re legally in the clear or not.
Doing something just because “it’s legal” doesn’t make it a moral justification. My wife and I have a joint bank account. It is legal for me to take money from it and gamble it all away, the gate is “open” but that doesn’t make it morally justifiable.
moody@lemmings.world
on 14 Aug 2024 04:07
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Meh, I don’t think there’s anything morally wrong with what he did. What he did wasn’t just legal, it’s literally his job. The only issue is that Valve is now angry at him for their own failing.
To continue the same analogy, they didn’t just leave the gate open, they literally invited a bunch of people and told them to invite other people. I’m not sure what they expected if not this exact situation.
dormedas@lemmy.dormedas.com
on 14 Aug 2024 04:16
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Valve isn’t really angry as far as I can tell, or have heard. They’re about as angry as any other person which goes and posts this stuff online: revoking access. If Valve wanted to expand their testing userbase without people leaking it online, they would have sought NDAs and other legally-binding agreements with testers and - by extension - journalists who can test the game.
snailfact@infosec.pub
on 14 Aug 2024 03:43
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I can’t believe their secret game they gave to 10 thousand people got leaked
KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml
on 14 Aug 2024 05:00
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At the end of the day, the editors will have to answer to not receiving access to Valve for statements or tips moving forward.
timestatic@feddit.org
on 14 Aug 2024 10:39
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Honestly I don’t think valve is as mad as you would think
Valve barely talks to press anyways, in a very similar fashion as Apple. At worst, maybe The Verge won’t get a Steam Deck 2 review unit ahead of time or something.
Arrkk@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 05:48
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I think the thing everyone is forgetting is that valve isn’t stupid, there’s no way they didn’t realize you could work around accepting the (legally unenforcable) NDA, and it’s open invite.
Valve 100% knows that keeping it “secret” is good for hype and was expecting this to happen at any time, and the nominal ban was expected, but nobody is gonna get sued either.
More people are talking about Valve’s “secret” new game because of this than would be if they openly announced it.
Carighan@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 07:28
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Yeah exactly. It’s quite likely they didn’t really blacklist The Verge anyways, just won’t send them invites any more for this particular game. Best kind of marketing is hype marketing, and this is how you fuel the hype.
corbin@infosec.pub
on 14 Aug 2024 16:46
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Yep, tech and game companies use invite-only systems to generate hype constantly. Bluesky is another recent example.
Riven@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 14 Aug 2024 21:29
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As someone whose played it I can say that it has some cool concepts but it’s sorta mid atm. It’s what to be expected for an alpha game though, I just hope they push the aethetic harder and not just use it as set dressing cause so far the aethetic is the most unique part about it. The rest is just overwatch meets leagueDota but slightly jankier (Again, to be expected since it’s alpha.)
Coelacanth@feddit.nu
on 15 Aug 2024 14:20
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Those are my thoughts as well, though I’ve only had the chance to play a couple of matches so far. When I heard about the concept it sounded cooler than it feels so far, but maybe I just need to get used to it. So far the gameplay loop hasn’t really clicked for me, and balancing the hero shooter aspects with MOBA stuff like farming and buying items hasn’t felt smooth, fluid or natural.
I do imagine - much like MOBAs - it’s more fun playing as a squad though. I’ve only done random matchmaking.
Riven@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 15 Aug 2024 16:41
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Dude glad it isn’t only me. The moba aspects slow it down but the shooter aspects speed it up and it hasn’t felt like a good mix so far. I know I’m the bad one so I can’t be too harsh but it felt like I was just getting one shot like in Call of duty but also I had to just grind resources like in mobas. My least favorite aspects of both games.
That’s sorta why I like overwatch, plenty of weps that aren’t guns and you don’t get one shot most of the time, especially if you aren’t playing a squish hero. No grinding either besides charging your ult, it’s more objective based which is fun.
Coelacanth@feddit.nu
on 15 Aug 2024 17:16
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I can see potential in the concept - needing to push and farm and take down neutrals or world bosses creates micro objectives and incentives for player movements and varied gameplay circumstances emerging from it. The shooter framing makes for a faster-paced style compared to Dota/League, and the ability and item system adds complexity and customization which increases the skill ceiling.
I think a big issue right now is balancing. The game is very snowbally and if there are catch-up mechanics in place I haven’t found them. So not losing the lanes is super important and whichever team builds a lead over the first couple of minutes tends to extend that into running the enemy team over. It also makes matchmaking and team skill gap a big problem (just like all MOBAs) since if you have a bad player they have a double negative effect: not contributing and feeding the enemies.
Apart from the aesthetic I do think the hero designs are pretty good (both in looks and gameplay) and the map has been pretty great - lots of traversal options and verticality.
I’ve had some decently fun matches today, but it’s a very uneven experience.
Riven@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 15 Aug 2024 17:22
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Agreed, heroes of the storm imo is a good example of a fun moba. League is my main game but hots is my love. In hots you don’t have to worry about last hitting things since there’s no gold to be earned just XP which you get by being in the vicinity of a minion or enemy death and each player doesn’t have individual XP it’s team XP. So even ‘bad’ players can contribute to the team by just being present, champs are also generally tankier than other mobas so unless you’re really caught in a bad position it’s usually possible to run and survive unless it’s a complete stomp and the enemy is way ahead but even then few heroes can truly one combo you.
Coelacanth@feddit.nu
on 15 Aug 2024 17:37
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I never played HotS but I played Dota 1&2 for many years. Recalibrating for Deadlock hasn’t been easy, despite being familiar with stuff like last hitting.
The farm thing is what stands out to me most, as you can’t really play passively if you feel like you’re outmatched skill-wise in Deadlock. In something like TF2 or Overwatch you can play more defensively if you feel disadvantaged, but here what will happen is you’ll fall so far behind on farm you’ll never be able to contribute.
The map feels too small and the pace too high, somehow, and 4 lanes seem too many. It’s been hard to feel like you can leave your lane and gank without opening too much of a vulnerability on your “home” lane. This exacerbates the problem of one lane getting stomped and that snowballing into an unstoppable victory.
It’s very possible all these problems diminish with good team play, though. This might be one of those games you can’t enjoy properly without organised team play and active voice comms.
Tearcell@mastodon.gamedev.place
on 15 Aug 2024 17:54
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@Coelacanth@Riven so this game isn't the heir to Monday Night Combat I still dream for huh?
Coelacanth@feddit.nu
on 15 Aug 2024 18:45
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I never played it so couldn’t tell you, but if you want to try out and tell me how it compares I can toss you an invite.
Tearcell@mastodon.gamedev.place
on 15 Aug 2024 23:32
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@Coelacanth just got an invite from a friend, but thanks!
Coelacanth@feddit.nu
on 15 Aug 2024 23:49
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As someone who hadn’t even heard about Monday Night Combat until you brought it up, I’d love your take on how they compare after you’ve gotten some games in. Looking it up they do seem to have overlaps.
Riven@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 15 Aug 2024 19:39
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Haven’t played it either but the other dudes points are real. They seem to be listening to the community though so it’s worth giving it a chance and speaking up, maybe you could steer it more toward the game you mentioned. Still alpha and they mentioned the gameplay could massively change, you never know.
For anyone reading this who wants an invite lemme know and I can shoot one over too.
Carighan@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 07:28
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Have you tried it? Genuine question, since we’re free to talk about it I’d love to hear why you think it’s mediocre, so far all the talk is always hype so I’m eager for some less positive takes.
I have 125hrs and it’s amazing fun, has a high skill ceiling, isn’t an overwatch clone or anything remotely like that game.
It’s a moba first third person shooter second. Basically dota with guns, or (a better) smite with a y axis (flying around, climbing, high spots, low spots) and guns.
ZeroHora@lemmy.ml
on 14 Aug 2024 11:50
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Is Dota 2 with some shooter mechanics. If you like Dota 2 you probably like it, if you prefer a moba like LoL maybe you’ll not like it.
I played a couple of matches and to me the match go for too long.
I played a couple of matches and to me the match go for too long.
And I said:
maybe you’ll not like it.
If you like dota2 and LoL ok, if you like dota2 ok, if you like LoL and don’t like dota2(like most league players) I find really difficult to like deadlock.
I played league since s2 and a played some Dota2(+80hrish), the things that I don’t like in dota2 is present on deadlock, for example, like I said before, the length of the matches is too long for me.
I was low elo in dota2 and above average in league(diamond).
The data of the average match length in league is 30min in low elo and 25 in high elo, the dota2 high tier matches with 35min IS TOO LONG. In dota2 I played a lot of matches with +40min, without counting the time paused(I can’t even remember if the paused time is counted in the match time).
Besides in league we can forfeit a match and a lot of fuckup matches end with 20min, in dota2 this doesn’t happen.
The 5min-10min of length in average is a deal breaker for a lot of players. Most of people that I played league with give up on Dota 2 for this reason alone.
And that time is the average, if you people go play dota 2 and has 5 bad matches in a row with 40min without any means to leave that shit is the entire night thrown out.
Not only that for casual league matches is already too long, compare that with Overwatch that the average is below 20min.
Preface that it is an early alpha build and everything can change.
Yes, I have played it. It is literally just a moba. It feels like they took Dota and slapped 5% of an fps to it. The matches can be way too long, and it suffers from the snowballing effect that if you don’t get a good start, it is really hard to be effective. If you are 10 mins in a match and getting outplayed, you probably arent going to enjoy the remaining 20-30 mins. If you took Dota and modded it with 1st person controls, you’d be almost there with this game.
There is some good. The vertical elements do help, and the jungle aspects, along with destroyables, do help somewhat to make up lost ground in your build. The art design is pretty good for being alpha, and I do enjoy the map. There are lots of crisscross paths and hidden areas. There are also some map mechanics that are fresh, like 1 way viewable smoke screens.
If you don’t like mobas, I’d almost guarantee you won’t like this. It’s not a new, genre defining experience, and it doesn’t pull enough fps features to make it different. 4/10 as it sits.
Carighan@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 19:41
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Oh interesting, so it’s not at all like early Overwatch 1 which was way more FPS and was only compared to a MOBA because of the comparatively mild focus on abilities?
That’s both good and bad to hear, but yeah, sounds like overall it has a long long way to go.
Coelacanth@feddit.nu
on 15 Aug 2024 14:34
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I’ve only had the chance to play a handful of matches but I can echo those sentiments so far, I think. Another disclaimer though is that I’ve only played random matchmaking, not any premade stacks or squads.
The resource battle sets the gameplay experience apart from stuff like Overwatch or TF2 - and not really in a good way (so far). It does get very snowbally, but if it’s intended to be a team-oriented game like Dota it’s possible I’m not seeing all the intended catch-up mechanics. It does seem like whichever team gets the best start just wins on stats, which makes the quality of matchmaking impact your fun a LOT. Uneven teams lead to very boring matches. I’ve also run into the classic Dota problem of “finish plz” - where a dominant team farms kills outside your base instead of finishing the game.
All aspects of the game are clearly alpha though - and there is potential here. Like highlighted the map is great and I think the hero designs are good (both visually and mechanically). With both four abilities and four slots for active items the game looks to be making its niche complexity and high skill ceiling - much like Dota (unsurprising given Icefrog is designing this).
I also think the MOBA aspect of pushing and farming isn’t necessarily a bad concept as it does introduce a bunch of micro-objectives which drive player movements and create emergent gameplay. It just needs better balancing I think.
blackstrat@lemmy.fwgx.uk
on 14 Aug 2024 06:40
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“Leaked”.
All leaks are deliberately orchestrated to fan the hype train.
PieMePlenty@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 07:14
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Valve gives you access to a game and tells you not to spew your mouth off. A gentleman’s agreement if you will.
You spew your mouth off and valve takes access away.
shocked pikachu face
This is a non-issue of you ask me. A person, who happens to be a writer, got access to the game through a steam friend and was asked not to talk about it but thought they could just not agree to a warning and write about it anyway? I got access too and i didnt write about the game. I get to go back and play it today, they cant.
timestatic@feddit.org
on 14 Aug 2024 10:37
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So what. They already have their article and it will be out anyways within like two years latest probably. The value of talking about deadlock is much higher and valve profits from this advertising as well.
Strykker@programming.dev
on 14 Aug 2024 12:54
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The so what is that this writer for the verge will likely never be trusted with NDA type pre-release access for any other games going forward, and this may even impact all of the Verge.
This isn’t just a one and done kind of issue, this will be seen by the entire industry as a “can’t trust that guy with pre-release access”
SmilingSolaris@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 14:46
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The Verge isn’t pulling the article and they are currently backing their journo. The whole site is blacklisted at this point.
corbin@infosec.pub
on 14 Aug 2024 16:43
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They didn’t get an NDA.
Strykker@programming.dev
on 14 Aug 2024 17:47
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Sure they don’t have any trust from the industry anymore.
It doesn’t have to be a legal document for there to be consequences.
The rest of the industry uses embargo agreements with mutual consent if they have private information. This doesn’t change anything for other game companies, unless they also want to do private-but-not-private beta tests.
glitches_brew@lemmy.world
on 15 Aug 2024 17:31
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Sure, and they proved that they won’t respect valves wishes unless legally required to do so. Valve is now in a position where if they want to do future play tests they will have to manage NDAs for everyone which is probably more trouble than it’s worth. The general population is now less likely to get an opportunity like this because the verge wanted to get some easy clicks. It’s pathetic of them to sell us out like this.
SmilingSolaris@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 14:45
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Except this is a game industry reputation ruined. It isn’t just valve, why would any dev ever give the verge access again knowing that they will not only disrespect your requests but bitch and moan if you hold them to it.
It’s a full rep killer. They will never have early access again for any company.
That’s not how this works. The Verge didn’t break an NDA or embargo because they didn’t get either of those things. Valve allows random people to invite other random people to play, with just a “pretty please don’t talk about this game” warning. There was already people talking about it online and leaked footage.
SmilingSolaris@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 17:29
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They didn’t break any laws, they broke trust. Random people can leak all they want, they don’t have institutional standing and respect. If what you said was true then it’d be pretty weird that every other institutional news, even gaming focused ones, have honored that request. Because doing otherwise is a dick move that kills your reputation, and the gaming industry is legendary for blacklisting for far less disrespectful moves. Downright petty with it.
corbin@infosec.pub
on 14 Aug 2024 17:57
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If Valve wants to be shitty about it, that’s within their right (unless they want to sue, which would be difficult to defend in court without a written legal agreement). It is also true that other outlets are free to do handshake agreements to not cover the game. The Verge didn’t break any rules, and Valve already maintains a minimal relationship with the press, so not talking to The Verge probably wouldn’t change anything.
SmilingSolaris@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 19:30
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I see you subscribe to the moral theory of “I didn’t click okay, I hit escape”.
Pika@sh.itjust.works
on 14 Aug 2024 19:51
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even if it doesn’t, they lose consumer respect as well, I personally won’t engage verge anymore because as someone who wants to go into the development trade, it puts a bad taste of any platform to blatantly disrespect a creators wishes like that.
echodot@feddit.uk
on 14 Aug 2024 19:34
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I’m sort of confused about why Valve even care that much. Surely they know that “leaks” are the best way to build hype for a game.
Although Valve are making a game again, so I’m not sure how much hype they really need.
Strykker@programming.dev
on 14 Aug 2024 20:06
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The biggest thing would be that a game under playtest is likely to undergo drastic balance changes and potentially even changes to core gameplay, a review of a game in that early of a state would likely not reflect the finished product, and is unlikely to be updated or taken down when the game is released, this possibly poisoning public opinion with content that doesn’t reflect the actual game.
arudesalad@sh.itjust.works
on 15 Aug 2024 00:44
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Closed playtests are usually with very in-development builds. People post the barely functioning game to social media and the game gets bad press. Release day rolls around and no one buys it because “that was that one game that looked bad a while ago”
This seems like a stupid train of thought but a lot of people think like this
Others have pointed out the concerns around negative reviews of things still subject to change, but the other aspect is just the relations with media.
I’m sure tons of journalists have been playing. And probably even working on content covering the game, but not publishing it yet. Once valve is ready for coverage they’ll have polished content ready. And valve can control the timing so that coverage happens right when they want the hype like maybe a few days before an open beta.
By covering it early you encourage other journalists to do the same, rushing out low quality content to get the views before others do. And for valve to not let any journalists see the game early to avoid this.
I have a lot of dota experience too and a lot of the abilities and stuff carry over.
Domt worry about being bad if you’re having fun stick with it and you’ll improve.
epicsninja@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 16:10
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It’s a MOBA at heart. I don’t like MOBAs, so I couldn’t stick with it.
tlou3please@lemmy.world
on 14 Aug 2024 09:32
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Eh. I find it difficult to have any sympathy for Valve. Sounds like it was only a matter of time before someone did this. If anything this is just free marketing.
reksas@sopuli.xyz
on 14 Aug 2024 13:02
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Decent thing to do would have been ask valve for time when they want the article published
If every news outlet avoided a topic because the company wouldn’t outright confirm its existence, we would never have reporting based on leaks and rumors. That’s dumb and would make journalism worse for everyone.
Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 14 Aug 2024 18:38
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It wasnt a rumor or hearsay but literally breaking a gentlemans NDA.
I havent played it but as I heard they requested not to show it and the journalist supposedly recorded whole gameplay and wrote about it?
Seems like a clear deal to me to cut of and ban his account for breaking an agreement for early access.
Reporting about leaks and rumors is totally fine. But that’s like being the primary reporter of a whistle blower
“Gentleman’s NDA” is not a thing. It’s either a legally-binding NDA or it’s not. It’s within Valve’s right to ban him from the game but saying the game shouldn’t be covered at all is silly.
Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 15 Aug 2024 05:02
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It is. It’s called Trust.
If I call you a friend and tell ypu something confidential I trust you to not talk about with someone else and you do regardless, I will quit the friendship.
glitches_brew@lemmy.world
on 15 Aug 2024 17:23
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They literally included a screenshot of valve asking to not share information about the game with a little quip about how they pressed escape instead of ok. Blantant disrespect to valves wishes even if it’s not a legally binding agreement.
They chose getting clicks over doing right by valve. Shame on them.
dantheclamman@lemmy.world
on 16 Aug 2024 01:09
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20,000 people are playing it at a time. Not exactly a secret. The way they’re testing this game is radical and newsworthy in itself. I’m glad Verge reported on it, and they don’t seem mad they they were banned
helenslunch@feddit.nl
on 14 Aug 2024 18:45
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Clickbait title. I can’t find any justification for calling a player being banned as The Verge “under fire”.
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What was so secret about it?
So apparently they had a bit asking players to not share info about the game, but you could technically back out of it without agreeing so legally they can post whatever they want. It feels like a case of “this is legal to do but maybe kinda shitty and valve might be upset”. Basically the agreement was informal and not enforceable and the verge just said fuck it. They did get banned afterwards, but I think that and not working with them in the future is all valve can do.
Edit: didn’t even require agreement, so honestly it’s kinda fair game. I was a bit hostile calling it shitty, I felt like it was a loophole or something but it’s more Valve just saying “hey pls don’t” and the verge replying “no thanks”, and eating the game ban since that’s all valve can really do.
If 10,000 people are doing something, it is NOT secret, and journalists must report on it for the general benefit of society.
Valve has their head in the clouds if they thought they could keep an informal secret among the population of a small town.
This isn’t some grand conspiracy it’s a closed beta for a video game. It’s pretty normal to have an NDA or embargo agreement to get access. It sounds like valve just goofed the implementation. So yeah it’s totally legal for them to post it, valve just might avoid giving them early copies in the future.
Totally. Verge just lost their access to breaking gaming news. They’ll be blacklisted from now on.
That said, I don’t know anyone who goes to The Verge for breaking news on gaming.
Polygon is Vox’s gaming site and I imagine the shitlist will extend to all Vox properties. So the editors at Polygon now have another department to blame for their woes.
There is no NDA for Deadlock, and anyone in it can invite anyone they want, as often as they want. It’s not like Valve has no idea how to privately test their game. I think they made these decisions deliberately.
A bit of the eula says not to share info about the game, but you can literally back out without accepting the eula, and still play. So I don’t know if I’d call it intentional, but there’s definitely no legal reason they can’t post whatever they want. They just got banned for it and might have damaged their relationship with valve somewhat. Depends on how much valve cares tho.
Edit: it wasnt even a eula apparently, just a “pls dont tell people ok?” Pop up. Thanks to the folks clarifying <3
There’s no EULA just like there’s no NDA. That pop up and a one sentence post about not sharing info about the game on the forum is all there is.
Oh ok, I must’ve misread the article, thanks for clarifying :)
There was no NDA, and the EULA is skippable.
Don’t know why you’re getting crushed for this. It’s not even just about this particular game; one of the major players in the largest entertainment industry on the planet is doing something highly unusual. That’s in the public interest.
Lemmy users should know better, too, as The Verge was one of the leading reporting outlets on what happened on Reddit last year. Adversarial tech journalism is part of what they do.
Adversarial journalism is always spun as “journalism out of line” when this is the foundation of all journalism.
Yeah that’s a fair point. I was mistaken thinking it was an actual eula they bypassed because valve didn’t make it so you couldn’t just close it, but it’s not in any way legally enforceable. I thought at least it was one of those grey “technically correct but obviously an unintended loophole” kind of things, but they literally just said “pls don’t tell”. I’m mostly thinking that risking the connections you might have to valve aren’t worth a scoop on a game still in what seems to be alpha or closed beta, but if I were valve I really don’t think they can be that mad, everything the verge did was basically fair game if they were fine with a game ban.
I guess when I think of public interest I think of stuff like reddit selling user data without consent, or games using manipulative tactics. It’s hard to feel like it makes sense to be aggressive with something as benign as “game we don’t know much about yet, smells of dota/moba” But then again I’m not a game journalist, and I stand corrected.
There isn’t even an informal agreement. It simply says not to share anything. Not even “by playing this, you agree not to share anything”. It’s just “please don’t share anything” without any action required by your side.
Yeah, gaylord_fartmaster let me know. I thought the message was one of those “scroll down and click agree on this eula” things but its just a pop up box, so it’s def not enforceable.
Nobody is saying it’s enforceable. It’s just a shitty thing to do when someone shows you something in confidence, asks not to share it, and you publish an entire news article about it. It’s just a dick move. Obviously nothing illegal about it.
Valve got burned many ages ago with Half-Life 2 and they only go to press about a game when it’s in the final phases of development, to release.
Bullshit. The actual reason will be that this is far better marketing once you’re at a level of Valve. Shit gets leaked anyways, might as well make it intentionally so to fuel the hype cycle.
Why wouldn’t they just put journalists they gave access to under embargo?
It’s not clear if he actually got access from Valve or from a friend or someone else. The article simply states
Ok - but they all originate from Valve, right? They couldn’t just put it behind a paywall or “NDA”wall?
From my understanding users of the beta can then invite others to join as well, Valve isn’t necessarily directly choosing who has access. So if Valve didn’t send the invite themselves they wouldn’t know to specifically put someone under a more strict NDA or whatnot because they’re a journalist. Could they have done more to restrict all users from sharing information? Yes, since apparently you just have to hit escape to bypass the agreement pop up, and there’s no other sort of NDA or contract or w/e in place upon joining.
I’m just speculating, but I think they chose not to do that so people could openly get their friends playing with them instead of going through waves of sign ups and hoping to get in together, or otherwise risk people losing interest when they can only play with randos. I could also see a line of thinking where you assume people want to talk about the game, so let them bring others in to play with them and that gives them someone to talk to about it too instead of just spilling the beans for randos on the internet.
That’s all I’m saying. Valve is the gatekeeper and left the gate wide open. They blew it and they’re looking for someone else to blame.
Valve fucked up but the Verge still broke the social contract regardless of whether they’re legally in the clear or not.
Doing something just because “it’s legal” doesn’t make it a moral justification. My wife and I have a joint bank account. It is legal for me to take money from it and gamble it all away, the gate is “open” but that doesn’t make it morally justifiable.
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Meh, I don’t think there’s anything morally wrong with what he did. What he did wasn’t just legal, it’s literally his job. The only issue is that Valve is now angry at him for their own failing.
To continue the same analogy, they didn’t just leave the gate open, they literally invited a bunch of people and told them to invite other people. I’m not sure what they expected if not this exact situation.
Valve isn’t really angry as far as I can tell, or have heard. They’re about as angry as any other person which goes and posts this stuff online: revoking access. If Valve wanted to expand their testing userbase without people leaking it online, they would have sought NDAs and other legally-binding agreements with testers and - by extension - journalists who can test the game.
I can’t believe their secret game they gave to 10 thousand people got leaked
At the end of the day, the editors will have to answer to not receiving access to Valve for statements or tips moving forward.
Honestly I don’t think valve is as mad as you would think
Valve barely talks to press anyways, in a very similar fashion as Apple. At worst, maybe The Verge won’t get a Steam Deck 2 review unit ahead of time or something.
I think the thing everyone is forgetting is that valve isn’t stupid, there’s no way they didn’t realize you could work around accepting the (legally unenforcable) NDA, and it’s open invite.
Valve 100% knows that keeping it “secret” is good for hype and was expecting this to happen at any time, and the nominal ban was expected, but nobody is gonna get sued either.
More people are talking about Valve’s “secret” new game because of this than would be if they openly announced it.
Yeah exactly. It’s quite likely they didn’t really blacklist The Verge anyways, just won’t send them invites any more for this particular game. Best kind of marketing is hype marketing, and this is how you fuel the hype.
Yep, tech and game companies use invite-only systems to generate hype constantly. Bluesky is another recent example.
As someone whose played it I can say that it has some cool concepts but it’s sorta mid atm. It’s what to be expected for an alpha game though, I just hope they push the aethetic harder and not just use it as set dressing cause so far the aethetic is the most unique part about it. The rest is just overwatch meets leagueDota but slightly jankier (Again, to be expected since it’s alpha.)
Those are my thoughts as well, though I’ve only had the chance to play a couple of matches so far. When I heard about the concept it sounded cooler than it feels so far, but maybe I just need to get used to it. So far the gameplay loop hasn’t really clicked for me, and balancing the hero shooter aspects with MOBA stuff like farming and buying items hasn’t felt smooth, fluid or natural.
I do imagine - much like MOBAs - it’s more fun playing as a squad though. I’ve only done random matchmaking.
Dude glad it isn’t only me. The moba aspects slow it down but the shooter aspects speed it up and it hasn’t felt like a good mix so far. I know I’m the bad one so I can’t be too harsh but it felt like I was just getting one shot like in Call of duty but also I had to just grind resources like in mobas. My least favorite aspects of both games.
That’s sorta why I like overwatch, plenty of weps that aren’t guns and you don’t get one shot most of the time, especially if you aren’t playing a squish hero. No grinding either besides charging your ult, it’s more objective based which is fun.
I can see potential in the concept - needing to push and farm and take down neutrals or world bosses creates micro objectives and incentives for player movements and varied gameplay circumstances emerging from it. The shooter framing makes for a faster-paced style compared to Dota/League, and the ability and item system adds complexity and customization which increases the skill ceiling.
I think a big issue right now is balancing. The game is very snowbally and if there are catch-up mechanics in place I haven’t found them. So not losing the lanes is super important and whichever team builds a lead over the first couple of minutes tends to extend that into running the enemy team over. It also makes matchmaking and team skill gap a big problem (just like all MOBAs) since if you have a bad player they have a double negative effect: not contributing and feeding the enemies.
Apart from the aesthetic I do think the hero designs are pretty good (both in looks and gameplay) and the map has been pretty great - lots of traversal options and verticality.
I’ve had some decently fun matches today, but it’s a very uneven experience.
Agreed, heroes of the storm imo is a good example of a fun moba. League is my main game but hots is my love. In hots you don’t have to worry about last hitting things since there’s no gold to be earned just XP which you get by being in the vicinity of a minion or enemy death and each player doesn’t have individual XP it’s team XP. So even ‘bad’ players can contribute to the team by just being present, champs are also generally tankier than other mobas so unless you’re really caught in a bad position it’s usually possible to run and survive unless it’s a complete stomp and the enemy is way ahead but even then few heroes can truly one combo you.
I never played HotS but I played Dota 1&2 for many years. Recalibrating for Deadlock hasn’t been easy, despite being familiar with stuff like last hitting.
The farm thing is what stands out to me most, as you can’t really play passively if you feel like you’re outmatched skill-wise in Deadlock. In something like TF2 or Overwatch you can play more defensively if you feel disadvantaged, but here what will happen is you’ll fall so far behind on farm you’ll never be able to contribute.
The map feels too small and the pace too high, somehow, and 4 lanes seem too many. It’s been hard to feel like you can leave your lane and gank without opening too much of a vulnerability on your “home” lane. This exacerbates the problem of one lane getting stomped and that snowballing into an unstoppable victory.
It’s very possible all these problems diminish with good team play, though. This might be one of those games you can’t enjoy properly without organised team play and active voice comms.
@Coelacanth @Riven so this game isn't the heir to Monday Night Combat I still dream for huh?
I never played it so couldn’t tell you, but if you want to try out and tell me how it compares I can toss you an invite.
@Coelacanth just got an invite from a friend, but thanks!
As someone who hadn’t even heard about Monday Night Combat until you brought it up, I’d love your take on how they compare after you’ve gotten some games in. Looking it up they do seem to have overlaps.
Haven’t played it either but the other dudes points are real. They seem to be listening to the community though so it’s worth giving it a chance and speaking up, maybe you could steer it more toward the game you mentioned. Still alpha and they mentioned the gameplay could massively change, you never know.
For anyone reading this who wants an invite lemme know and I can shoot one over too.
And at the end of the day…it’s just an ok game.
Have you tried it? Genuine question, since we’re free to talk about it I’d love to hear why you think it’s mediocre, so far all the talk is always hype so I’m eager for some less positive takes.
I have 125hrs and it’s amazing fun, has a high skill ceiling, isn’t an overwatch clone or anything remotely like that game.
It’s a moba first third person shooter second. Basically dota with guns, or (a better) smite with a y axis (flying around, climbing, high spots, low spots) and guns.
Is Dota 2 with some shooter mechanics. If you like Dota 2 you probably like it, if you prefer a moba like LoL maybe you’ll not like it.
I played a couple of matches and to me the match go for too long.
Wait, why would a league player not like it?
Because is played more like dota 2 than league and so far as I know league players don’t like much how dota 2 is played.
They would don’t listen to this person
LOL, ok…
Have you played it? I have. I like LoL, I like deadlock.
Yes
And I said:
If you like dota2 and LoL ok, if you like dota2 ok, if you like LoL and don’t like dota2(like most league players) I find really difficult to like deadlock.
I played league since s2 and a played some Dota2(+80hrish), the things that I don’t like in dota2 is present on deadlock, for example, like I said before, the length of the matches is too long for me.
You must be in low elo, high tier matches are 25-35 min long, I haven’t played a match over 37minute in weeks.
Lower elo players have been complaining about long games because a lot of new moba players aren’t playing objectives
I was low elo in dota2 and above average in league(diamond).
The data of the average match length in league is 30min in low elo and 25 in high elo, the dota2 high tier matches with 35min IS TOO LONG. In dota2 I played a lot of matches with +40min, without counting the time paused(I can’t even remember if the paused time is counted in the match time).
Besides in league we can forfeit a match and a lot of fuckup matches end with 20min, in dota2 this doesn’t happen.
Bro you must have attention span brain rot idk what to tell you you’re talking about a few minutes difference in time lmao
Try fortnite the matches are 25 min and they have pop song emotes, might be more your speed.
Don’t be naive.
The 5min-10min of length in average is a deal breaker for a lot of players. Most of people that I played league with give up on Dota 2 for this reason alone.
And that time is the average, if you people go play dota 2 and has 5 bad matches in a row with 40min without any means to leave that shit is the entire night thrown out.
Not only that for casual league matches is already too long, compare that with Overwatch that the average is below 20min.
Preface that it is an early alpha build and everything can change.
Yes, I have played it. It is literally just a moba. It feels like they took Dota and slapped 5% of an fps to it. The matches can be way too long, and it suffers from the snowballing effect that if you don’t get a good start, it is really hard to be effective. If you are 10 mins in a match and getting outplayed, you probably arent going to enjoy the remaining 20-30 mins. If you took Dota and modded it with 1st person controls, you’d be almost there with this game.
There is some good. The vertical elements do help, and the jungle aspects, along with destroyables, do help somewhat to make up lost ground in your build. The art design is pretty good for being alpha, and I do enjoy the map. There are lots of crisscross paths and hidden areas. There are also some map mechanics that are fresh, like 1 way viewable smoke screens.
If you don’t like mobas, I’d almost guarantee you won’t like this. It’s not a new, genre defining experience, and it doesn’t pull enough fps features to make it different. 4/10 as it sits.
Oh interesting, so it’s not at all like early Overwatch 1 which was way more FPS and was only compared to a MOBA because of the comparatively mild focus on abilities?
That’s both good and bad to hear, but yeah, sounds like overall it has a long long way to go.
I’ve only had the chance to play a handful of matches but I can echo those sentiments so far, I think. Another disclaimer though is that I’ve only played random matchmaking, not any premade stacks or squads.
The resource battle sets the gameplay experience apart from stuff like Overwatch or TF2 - and not really in a good way (so far). It does get very snowbally, but if it’s intended to be a team-oriented game like Dota it’s possible I’m not seeing all the intended catch-up mechanics. It does seem like whichever team gets the best start just wins on stats, which makes the quality of matchmaking impact your fun a LOT. Uneven teams lead to very boring matches. I’ve also run into the classic Dota problem of “finish plz” - where a dominant team farms kills outside your base instead of finishing the game.
All aspects of the game are clearly alpha though - and there is potential here. Like highlighted the map is great and I think the hero designs are good (both visually and mechanically). With both four abilities and four slots for active items the game looks to be making its niche complexity and high skill ceiling - much like Dota (unsurprising given Icefrog is designing this).
I also think the MOBA aspect of pushing and farming isn’t necessarily a bad concept as it does introduce a bunch of micro-objectives which drive player movements and create emergent gameplay. It just needs better balancing I think.
“Leaked”.
All leaks are deliberately orchestrated to fan the hype train.
Lol no definitely not all
Valve gives you access to a game and tells you not to spew your mouth off. A gentleman’s agreement if you will.
You spew your mouth off and valve takes access away.
shocked pikachu face
This is a non-issue of you ask me. A person, who happens to be a writer, got access to the game through a steam friend and was asked not to talk about it but thought they could just not agree to a warning and write about it anyway? I got access too and i didnt write about the game. I get to go back and play it today, they cant.
So what. They already have their article and it will be out anyways within like two years latest probably. The value of talking about deadlock is much higher and valve profits from this advertising as well.
The so what is that this writer for the verge will likely never be trusted with NDA type pre-release access for any other games going forward, and this may even impact all of the Verge.
This isn’t just a one and done kind of issue, this will be seen by the entire industry as a “can’t trust that guy with pre-release access”
The Verge isn’t pulling the article and they are currently backing their journo. The whole site is blacklisted at this point.
They didn’t get an NDA.
Sure they don’t have any trust from the industry anymore.
It doesn’t have to be a legal document for there to be consequences.
The rest of the industry uses embargo agreements with mutual consent if they have private information. This doesn’t change anything for other game companies, unless they also want to do private-but-not-private beta tests.
Sure, and they proved that they won’t respect valves wishes unless legally required to do so. Valve is now in a position where if they want to do future play tests they will have to manage NDAs for everyone which is probably more trouble than it’s worth. The general population is now less likely to get an opportunity like this because the verge wanted to get some easy clicks. It’s pathetic of them to sell us out like this.
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Except this is a game industry reputation ruined. It isn’t just valve, why would any dev ever give the verge access again knowing that they will not only disrespect your requests but bitch and moan if you hold them to it.
It’s a full rep killer. They will never have early access again for any company.
That’s not how this works. The Verge didn’t break an NDA or embargo because they didn’t get either of those things. Valve allows random people to invite other random people to play, with just a “pretty please don’t talk about this game” warning. There was already people talking about it online and leaked footage.
They didn’t break any laws, they broke trust. Random people can leak all they want, they don’t have institutional standing and respect. If what you said was true then it’d be pretty weird that every other institutional news, even gaming focused ones, have honored that request. Because doing otherwise is a dick move that kills your reputation, and the gaming industry is legendary for blacklisting for far less disrespectful moves. Downright petty with it.
If Valve wants to be shitty about it, that’s within their right (unless they want to sue, which would be difficult to defend in court without a written legal agreement). It is also true that other outlets are free to do handshake agreements to not cover the game. The Verge didn’t break any rules, and Valve already maintains a minimal relationship with the press, so not talking to The Verge probably wouldn’t change anything.
I see you subscribe to the moral theory of “I didn’t click okay, I hit escape”.
even if it doesn’t, they lose consumer respect as well, I personally won’t engage verge anymore because as someone who wants to go into the development trade, it puts a bad taste of any platform to blatantly disrespect a creators wishes like that.
I’m sort of confused about why Valve even care that much. Surely they know that “leaks” are the best way to build hype for a game.
Although Valve are making a game again, so I’m not sure how much hype they really need.
The biggest thing would be that a game under playtest is likely to undergo drastic balance changes and potentially even changes to core gameplay, a review of a game in that early of a state would likely not reflect the finished product, and is unlikely to be updated or taken down when the game is released, this possibly poisoning public opinion with content that doesn’t reflect the actual game.
Closed playtests are usually with very in-development builds. People post the barely functioning game to social media and the game gets bad press. Release day rolls around and no one buys it because “that was that one game that looked bad a while ago”
This seems like a stupid train of thought but a lot of people think like this
Others have pointed out the concerns around negative reviews of things still subject to change, but the other aspect is just the relations with media.
I’m sure tons of journalists have been playing. And probably even working on content covering the game, but not publishing it yet. Once valve is ready for coverage they’ll have polished content ready. And valve can control the timing so that coverage happens right when they want the hype like maybe a few days before an open beta.
By covering it early you encourage other journalists to do the same, rushing out low quality content to get the views before others do. And for valve to not let any journalists see the game early to avoid this.
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Oh you have access? You got any spare referals? Asking for a friend with the friend code 998621885
Too bad the game itself doesn’t sound very interesting.
Oh but it is very very fun. Addicting even. Full time job and business owner and in the last 5 weeks I’ve logged 125hrs.
125 hours already?! No wonder I sometimes play against people that feel like they’ve been playing it their entire life.
I have a lot of dota experience too and a lot of the abilities and stuff carry over.
Domt worry about being bad if you’re having fun stick with it and you’ll improve.
It’s a MOBA at heart. I don’t like MOBAs, so I couldn’t stick with it.
Eh. I find it difficult to have any sympathy for Valve. Sounds like it was only a matter of time before someone did this. If anything this is just free marketing.
Decent thing to do would have been ask valve for time when they want the article published
They did ask Valve:
Then don’t post it.
If every news outlet avoided a topic because the company wouldn’t outright confirm its existence, we would never have reporting based on leaks and rumors. That’s dumb and would make journalism worse for everyone.
It wasnt a rumor or hearsay but literally breaking a gentlemans NDA.
I havent played it but as I heard they requested not to show it and the journalist supposedly recorded whole gameplay and wrote about it?
Seems like a clear deal to me to cut of and ban his account for breaking an agreement for early access.
Reporting about leaks and rumors is totally fine. But that’s like being the primary reporter of a whistle blower
“Gentleman’s NDA” is not a thing. It’s either a legally-binding NDA or it’s not. It’s within Valve’s right to ban him from the game but saying the game shouldn’t be covered at all is silly.
It is. It’s called Trust.
If I call you a friend and tell ypu something confidential I trust you to not talk about with someone else and you do regardless, I will quit the friendship.
Game publishers are not your friend.
They have the same attitude I have to tech support tickets.
If I call and the user doesn’t answer then I guess the issue is fixed isn’t it? Ticket closed.
It’s just bad faith reporting. It reminds me of Kotaku sneaking into conventions before they opened to report what games were there.
It lowers my opinion of The Verge, I used to think they were at least reputable with standards, but that’s a real tabloid move.
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The verge has been paid advertising disguised as tech news for decades now. Arstechnica too.
Isn’t it like just over ten years old?
I think you must be talking about a different website?
That’s what I thought as well. When has The Verge ever been good?
I used to think they were reputable until they came out with that PC building video
LTT posted a do-over video with Stefan. He seems like a decent guy. Have followed him since then. youtu.be/QKzmYsySGFQ?si=AlEpsycL5ifF3RxD
They literally included a screenshot of valve asking to not share information about the game with a little quip about how they pressed escape instead of ok. Blantant disrespect to valves wishes even if it’s not a legally binding agreement.
They chose getting clicks over doing right by valve. Shame on them.
Clickbait title. I can’t find any justification for calling a player being banned as The Verge “under fire”.