Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world
on 20 Jan 2024 02:03
nextcollapse
The previous section hints at something pretty important, but maybe non-obvious: I assert that MetroidVania is not a genre, it’s a framework - a way of structuring games and most specifically the worlds they take place in.
And
This realization that ‘MetroidVania’ is not a genre helps explain why a game like Batman: Arkham Asylum can be thought of as a MetroidVania where its sequels wouldn’t be, even though almost all aspects of the gameplay are very similar.
edgemaster72@lemmy.world
on 20 Jan 2024 03:57
nextcollapse
Never thought about that second quote like that before, but it explains why I loved Asylum and noped out of City after like, an hour or two
Really not convinced that you can’t call something a genre because it wouldn’t describe different games in a series.
I’d argue the Wario Land series has mostly changed genres between 1 and 2. First one is a straight platformer that’s basically Super Mario Bros with different abilities, following games are exploration puzzle game things that have a platforming element, but in which platforming is not the main point IMO.
Resident Evil really forgot it was survival horror for a while.
Breath of the Wild/Tears of the Kingdom are almost nothing like the classic Zelda formula. Free-form puzzle solving, free-er movement, almost zero dungeon structures, consumable weapons…
Those are significant, because when it happens it’s very likely some people would be more invested in either the old or new games, which incidentally explains why it doesn’t happen that much in established series.
I know I was initially very disappointed with new Wario, because all I wanted back then was more Mario-style platforming and the intentionally frustrating design of Wario Land 2-3-4 wasn’t for me.
Your example about BoTW is really good. I never played the earlier Zelda games and had near-zero interest in them. Then a friend let me borrow their BoTW cart and I absolutely fell in love with it. Still no interest in playing the earlier ones though.
I happen to like both, but they’re very different. Like a lot of fans of the rest of the series, while playing BotW I missed the classic dungeon experience. A whole divine beast and a dozen shrines stitched together would be maybe like one dungeon in the main series, and it’d have a new item, it would rely on it a lot with clever riddles and it’d have a unique boss, not just another flavour of Ganon.
Of course, a classic Zelda game is also a lot more linear in structure, with a world you can only explore bit by bit, and in a set order (mostly, there is a couple of exceptions).
The worse take i have read in a while, you can say the same about anything, fps, tps, rpg and even visual novels or action adventure, they are more frameworks than genres by their definition, even racing or sports games.
eskimofry@lemmy.world
on 20 Jan 2024 05:14
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Why the downvotes?
zero_spelled_with_an_ecks@programming.dev
on 20 Jan 2024 05:27
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Gives off “Umm, actually” vibes. Metroidvania is a useful term.
eskimofry@lemmy.world
on 20 Jan 2024 06:23
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I kind of liked their take. The arkham games example was convincing.
Even if people don’t agree, I feel It’s just their opinion and downvoting is a bit harsh.
Eh IDK if it’s just my mood… but i am feeling generous.
morphballganon@lemmy.world
on 21 Jan 2024 02:10
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Moronic ideas deserve them. What do you think downvotes are for?
eskimofry@lemmy.world
on 21 Jan 2024 05:52
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For toxic ideas? Good ideas can’t come about if you punish the “moronic” ideas too harshly.
slimerancher@lemmy.world
on 20 Jan 2024 07:22
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If we accept this, then RPG is also not a genre.
BudgieMania@kbin.social
on 20 Jan 2024 10:37
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...what
Reading through it, his suggestion seems rooted on the idea that Metroidvania carries implications in terms of setting, perspective or combat, which is a complete fabrication of his mind not grounded in reality. It's 2024, the people that would know and care about the Metroidvania tag know very well what that tag implies; your "revelation" that Arkham Asylum is also a Metroidvania has been commonplace in discussions for a decade.
This addresses a confusion and an issue that don't exist, and the tag is so standard at this point that changing it would not catch on and would create way more problems than it would fix.
amio@kbin.social
on 20 Jan 2024 12:24
nextcollapse
So not only does he want to replace a perfectly cromulent word that everyone uses and whose meaning most people agree on...
... his suggested replacement is "Unlocking World". Yes, I sure do love that Unlocking World genre...
I’ve never understood the term Metroidvania, and at this point, I’m afraid to ask.
BudgieMania@kbin.social
on 20 Jan 2024 22:33
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You are walking and see a very high place, that you can't reach with your basic jump, so you decide to continue on your way.
Eventually, you get the power of flight. Your mind goes back to that high place, "oh shit, now I can get there and see what's in that place!".
Multiply that several times, with several paths, with different powers/gadgets/abilities/whatever, and that's Metroidvania.
The nature of the obstacles and the tools that unlock those obstacles doesn't matter, if the world is structured around blocked paths and tools that unlock them in non-linear ways, that's Metroidvania or at least Metroidvania-adjacent.
threaded - newest
And
Never thought about that second quote like that before, but it explains why I loved Asylum and noped out of City after like, an hour or two
Really not convinced that you can’t call something a genre because it wouldn’t describe different games in a series.
I’d argue the Wario Land series has mostly changed genres between 1 and 2. First one is a straight platformer that’s basically Super Mario Bros with different abilities, following games are exploration puzzle game things that have a platforming element, but in which platforming is not the main point IMO.
Resident Evil really forgot it was survival horror for a while.
Breath of the Wild/Tears of the Kingdom are almost nothing like the classic Zelda formula. Free-form puzzle solving, free-er movement, almost zero dungeon structures, consumable weapons…
Those are significant, because when it happens it’s very likely some people would be more invested in either the old or new games, which incidentally explains why it doesn’t happen that much in established series.
I know I was initially very disappointed with new Wario, because all I wanted back then was more Mario-style platforming and the intentionally frustrating design of Wario Land 2-3-4 wasn’t for me.
Your example about BoTW is really good. I never played the earlier Zelda games and had near-zero interest in them. Then a friend let me borrow their BoTW cart and I absolutely fell in love with it. Still no interest in playing the earlier ones though.
I happen to like both, but they’re very different. Like a lot of fans of the rest of the series, while playing BotW I missed the classic dungeon experience. A whole divine beast and a dozen shrines stitched together would be maybe like one dungeon in the main series, and it’d have a new item, it would rely on it a lot with clever riddles and it’d have a unique boss, not just another flavour of Ganon.
Of course, a classic Zelda game is also a lot more linear in structure, with a world you can only explore bit by bit, and in a set order (mostly, there is a couple of exceptions).
The worse take i have read in a while, you can say the same about anything, fps, tps, rpg and even visual novels or action adventure, they are more frameworks than genres by their definition, even racing or sports games.
Why the downvotes?
Gives off “Umm, actually” vibes. Metroidvania is a useful term.
I kind of liked their take. The arkham games example was convincing.
Even if people don’t agree, I feel It’s just their opinion and downvoting is a bit harsh.
Eh IDK if it’s just my mood… but i am feeling generous.
Moronic ideas deserve them. What do you think downvotes are for?
For toxic ideas? Good ideas can’t come about if you punish the “moronic” ideas too harshly.
If we accept this, then RPG is also not a genre.
...what
Reading through it, his suggestion seems rooted on the idea that Metroidvania carries implications in terms of setting, perspective or combat, which is a complete fabrication of his mind not grounded in reality. It's 2024, the people that would know and care about the Metroidvania tag know very well what that tag implies; your "revelation" that Arkham Asylum is also a Metroidvania has been commonplace in discussions for a decade.
This addresses a confusion and an issue that don't exist, and the tag is so standard at this point that changing it would not catch on and would create way more problems than it would fix.
So not only does he want to replace a perfectly cromulent word that everyone uses and whose meaning most people agree on...
... his suggested replacement is "Unlocking World". Yes, I sure do love that Unlocking World genre...
I’ve never understood the term Metroidvania, and at this point, I’m afraid to ask.
You are walking and see a very high place, that you can't reach with your basic jump, so you decide to continue on your way.
Eventually, you get the power of flight. Your mind goes back to that high place, "oh shit, now I can get there and see what's in that place!".
Multiply that several times, with several paths, with different powers/gadgets/abilities/whatever, and that's Metroidvania.
The nature of the obstacles and the tools that unlock those obstacles doesn't matter, if the world is structured around blocked paths and tools that unlock them in non-linear ways, that's Metroidvania or at least Metroidvania-adjacent.