ampersandrew@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 15:25
nextcollapse
If you’re just looking for sales numbers, which we haven’t had much of for a long time, the long and short of it is:
4M Steam Decks since launch, 2M of all of its competitors combined; expected that all handheld PCs sharing this AMD tech will sell about 2M more this year.
To put it in perspective there are 150 million Switches and 75 million PS5s out there. And 15 million Wii Us, if anybody is counting. This puts PC handhelds some ways ahead of the N-Gage and well behind the Game Gear.
I'm less concerned about who's ahead in the handheld PC market and more interested on whether it'll ever become a mass market space. I think a lot depends on prices for integrated GPUs not skyrocketing like their desktop counterparts and their performance stepping up a notch or two. We'll see.
ampersandrew@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 16:06
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It’s worth keeping in mind what’s different here though. If the Steam Deck came out in the early 90s, it wouldn’t be analogous to the Game Gear; it would be competing with the Nomad. It plays the same games as a PC but handheld, so it’s capturing specifically the market that wants to extend that library to be handheld as well. Every Switch sold is handheld, but outside of the Switch Lite, we don’t know who values that system for its handheld capabilities (I basically never used my Switch handheld back when I actually used it). There was also literally no competition for it when it launched, so it will be interesting to see how many opt for a handheld PC instead when the handheld part is what they’re looking for.
Additionally, there’s this rising market segment of mini PCs that are powered by the same tech that’s in these handhelds. I’ve got one that I like to bring around for local multiplayer games, and if you only ever intend to use a computer at a desk for basic documents and web browsing, they can undercut low-end laptop prices for the same level of power and run the same operating system. Based on recent rumors, this tech could wind up in a new crop of Steam Machine-esque consoles very soon but with the library problem more or less solved compared to ten years ago.
Yeeeah, I don't know that "it'd slot in next to the Nomad" is a ringing endorsement of mainstream appeal.
You, by the way, are not in the majority in your usage pattern for the Switch. Every bit of info available suggests that handheld vs docked use of the Switch is pretty much evenly split. Which is surprising to me, because I see it as a handheld first and foremost.
I do agree that it'll be interesting to see how the Switch 2 fares in a market where it's not the only thing in its class, but if I had to place any bets, they have a humongous lead despite PC handhelds having been around for ages and the Deck having taken a very good stab at competitive pricing and performance a whole three years ago (what is even time, holy crap).
As for mini PCs... Man, I don't get mini PCs. I'm very much an early adopter of weird tech, I have more SBCs and handheld devices than I know what to do with, but... who wants a screenless laptop? Or an underpowered, overpriced desktop? I can see some use cases for it, I've had some NUCs and thin clients here and there, I just don't think the value proposition is there to use them even as a media device. But hey, it's a small but clearly competitive space, and if this gen APUs do indeed match a 4060 desktop level of performance when fed enough power maybe that starts to make sense next to a Xbox Series S or something as a gaming device. We'll see.
For the record, I do have a PC plugged into a TV for gaming, mostly made out of spares and hand-me-downs built into a smaller, less garish case. I haven't seen a mini PC that made me question that choice yet. I'm open to having my mind changed, it just hasn't happened yet.
Yeeeah, I don’t know that “it’d slot in next to the Nomad” is a ringing endorsement of mainstream appeal.
PC gaming has mainstream appeal, measurably. There are lots of reasons to play games on PC, and this is an additional one, particularly compared to PlayStation and Xbox, moreso than Switch.
Every bit of info available suggests that handheld vs docked use of the Switch is pretty much evenly split.
I haven’t seen any reporting on that in a long time, since before this PC form factor existed, but I’d happy to peruse a link. I see some people playing Switch on the subway from time to time, but also anecdotally, most of my friends, all adults, play them docked just about exclusively. I’ve definitely seen children playing Switch Lites at the laundromat as a tool that parents use to keep them busy.
As for mini PCs… Man, I don’t get mini PCs. I’m very much an early adopter of weird tech, I have more SBCs and handheld devices than I know what to do with, but… who wants a screenless laptop? Or an underpowered, overpriced desktop?
My use case is I have a very easily packed and unpacked local multiplayer machine, for emulators and fighting games especially. The Steam Deck is a bit of a pain to set up for this use case, and it can’t run Street Fighter 6 very well or at the resolutions I’d want it to, but the mini PC does all of that very well. That use case, and some interested fighting game tournament organizers I’ve been talking to, are admittedly very niche, but I think the alternative for a laptop has real legs. My friend just got one for her dad (in his late 60s) for a little north of $150. It runs Windows. It allows him to browse the web and run his office applications, plus whatever else he needs to run on x64. Most older folks I see using laptops only ever use them in a single place like a desk anyway, and they’d rather output them to a larger monitor. This is where I think this form factor will sing in the coming years, plus the real possibility of whatever living room PC game machine that Valve can put together for decent value. The other advantage is that not only can they be cheap up front and take up less space, they also use less electricity and produce less waste heat.
PC gaming absolutely has mainstream appeal, and it's growing. Just not specifically because of the handheld market. By the numbers, anyway. I find people tend to hedge on this. Either the Steam Deck is a consolized solution to PC gaming that makes the Switch obsolete or a bit of an experiment that doesn't need to stack up to mainstream devices.
Yes, PCs (desktop PCs, laptops and handhelds together) are comparable to 4K home consoles these days and lead in some segments. But of those categories the handhelds are the smallest contributor while they are the largest portion of the console market. I love PC handhelds and I'd like to see those proportions shift, but it's interesting that Valve has put a lot of resources behind having a competitive device at a very low price point and we haven't seen more of a change.
On the docked vs handheld thing, Nintendo disclosed that info a few times. This is the first result I found just searching for it. It's recent enough that there were already a hundred million of the things in the wild, so I don't expect it'll have changed much.
As for the mini PC thing... yeah, sure. I mean, I'm not sayng they don't do the thing, I'm saying whenever I sit to look at the optimal solution for a problem the mini PCs never seem to come out on top. A PC for an older person taht doesn't need a ton of computing power? I went with an Android tablet with a detachable keyboard last time, they are delighted at having a laptop-style thing and a tablet to watch media that works like their phone. A low power device to run some specific application? I can probably find some cheap SBC somewhere I can get running passively with a heatsink and will do the job. A portable gaming solution? I have laptops with dedicated GPUs around that are older but much faster than most mini PCs. Also, they have a screen, so there's that. A set-top box? I can put something together for cheaper in the same performance range.
There are valid use cases. Sure, if you need a dozen of these things to embed in desktops, or something you can mount behind a screen, or... something to run a FGC tourney for cheap, apparently, there are reasons to use them. I just haven't found they provided a better alternative than other devices for most of the uses I personally have.
PC gaming absolutely has mainstream appeal, and it’s growing. Just not specifically because of the handheld market. By the numbers, anyway.
I’d wager that the reason the PC market has grown is due to a million different reasons that, on their own, are quite small. Probably not many people would ditch their PlayStation just for mods. Or just for more freedom on controller choices. Or just for better performance. Or just for free online play. Etc.
If I might nitpick your link on the handheld usage, which by the way is dated approximately right when this handheld PC market was born, the thing that Nintendo was seemingly seeking to justify with that data is, “Do people switch with the Switch?”, but it would not answer the question, “How many people would buy the handheld-capable version if they already had a more powerful stationary machine that plays the same games?”
I'm confused on what your hypothesis is here. You think PC handhelds are massively shifting the modes of usage of the Switch towards being primarily docked? I'm not gonna dig for it, but my understanding was that the Switch usage was slowly drifting towards more handheld over time. Even if that wasn't the case, the numbers just don't match. Even if 10 million people had shifted from using the Switch as a handheld to a PC handheld, why would that impact the remaining 130 million users? PC handhelds are a rounding error in the space the Switch operates in.
If I had to guess the drift towards PC probably has a lot to do with software. PC ports weren't a given until recently and they arguably still aren't reliably great. With console exclusives becoming fewer and further between and both first parties now willing to ship PC ports there just is less of an incentive to be stuck to a specific piece of hardware. PCs have always been backwards and forwards compatible, but with all sorts of devices able to run the same software across many device types and hardware generations that is becoming a big selling point.
Which on the Switch is a lot weaker, mostly because Nintendo is better at making a ton of first party games than Sony and Microsoft and because they have a younger userbase that is less likely to have three other gaming-worthy devices at their fingertips at all times.
Answering this post is difficult without writing an entire book, but I think the existence of this form factor, the iteration on it, and the cycles of hardware going out of date and being replaced will, in the long term, have more and more of a tangible effect on all consoles, and Nintendo will feel that last out of the three. Rumor has it Xbox has given up on being a console and will actually just be a PC going forward.
With console exclusives becoming fewer and further between and both first parties now willing to ship PC ports there just is less of an incentive to be stuck to a specific piece of hardware.
This is basically the gist of my point, and long-term, I think it will apply to handhelds as well. As an example, on the current Switch, you can get compromised versions of the Witcher 3 and Doom Eternal, or you could just get the better version of the game on PC; it will run perfectly at home, and you can run it at acceptable settings when handheld. Feel free to extrapolate that a few years into the future when there’s a new handheld PC out and the consumer is comparing the latest new game on PC against a Switch 2.
This has been true of Nintendo hardware for a long time, though. I wouldn't discount their ability to sustain it through a steady feed of exclusives.
Whether they can do better at managing rising costs and complexity than others is anybody's guess. And we'll see what happens on PC with compatibility. With a handful of games that don't run on SteamOS dominating the PC market there is a quiet conflict there and it's not clear how it will resolve itself.
I think it’s very interesting to note that mainstream consoles like the Switch or PS5 have massive ad campaigns behind them, expensive television spots, and a constant churn of new exclusives that they’re using to keep themselves in the conversation. The Steam Deck certainly had an ad campaign, but it feels impressive to me that they managed to make those numbers happen mostly just through throwing up an announcement on the Steam front page and then having it review well once it found its way into critics’ hands.
HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club
on 25 Feb 17:57
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I look at the Steam Deck less as an end product and more of a means.
The Steam Deck is absolutely getting slaughtered by the Switch in terms of sales, but it gives Valve an alternative to the Windows ecosystem that is becoming more hostile as Microsoft tries to muscle in on gaming. I also think that Valve could have designed a Steam Deck variant to compete with the Switch 2, but hasn’t for various reasons
Already, Valve has the technology to create a console to compete with a PS5 and Xbox Series X, but doesn’t seem to want to.
I can’t imagine it would be that much harder to make a Chromebook equivalent, giving it access to the PC market without Windows.
Since Valve is using Linux, developing the tech stack is cheap. Also, Valve seems to be selling hardware for a profit, so it may be more comfortable with slimmer margins.
I'm comparing unit sales. The Deck just happens to slot in between older handhelds in terms of unit sales. It also sold about as much as the Saturn and a little more than the Dreamcast, as far as I can tell. I may be ahead of both and on par with the Wii U now, but Steam isn't super transparent with giving sales numbers.
No, I get it, no animosity here. I'm just curious about why you think the bar is fundamentally different for the Deck than for consoles in general.
Hell, adjusted for inflation the Game Gear retailed for the equivalent of 300 bucks at launch, which is not far off from the lowest price for the Deck at 399. Plus 90s devices sold a lot less than modern devices. Why would meeting the Game Gear not be a reasonable target for the Deck?
It's the most successful individual PC handheld, but it's also not made it into the same range as most consoles so it hasn't turned this product category into a mainstream device... yet.
Hah. You're overestimating the potential of 90s gaming devices. No game console, handheld or not, had sold a hundred million units. Hell, the Game Boy didn't crack into the hundreds until the Game Boy Color came around, and it was certainly the first.
Anyway, mild exaggeration aside, I get what you're aiming for, but I guess my question is why people read that positioning on Valve devices in the first place. There's no obvious indication that Valve is any less ambitious than any other first party, or any reason why they would be. They went to AMD and comissioned a custom APU at scale, just like Nintendo, Sony or Microsoft are doing. The only differentiating factor is they built the thing on top of a mostly usable pre-existing OS (which I suppose Microsoft also does, but hey). If anything their entire call to fame was to "consolize" Linux for SteamOS, which they'd been trying to do for a while anyway.
I agree that their goal is to set up an ecosystem that works for them, but I find it surprising that people assume they're disinterested in hardware sales. If I had to guess I'd say it's because they refuse to market too hard outside their own ecosystem, so their branding feels different than the more in-your-face releases of Sony, MS or Nintendo products and people assume that's because they're intrinsically or intentionally smaller, which I don't think is true. I do think that image is projected on purpose, though.
Nintendo has done backwards compatibility before, pretty extensively. The Switch 2 isn't a departure. They put a GBA cartridge slot in the first few Nintendo DSs (they lost it in the DSi), and the 3DS was backwards compatible with the DS. They also did GC to Wii and Wii to Wii U (but not GC to WiiU). They even put physical plugs for GC controllers and memory cards on the Wii.
And they've done weirder stuff, like the ability to use a GBA as a controller on the GameCube and some cross-save bonuses between games in some platforms.
The Game Gear is a weird example for that, specifically, since it was basically a repackaged Master System, so there was a lot of game crossover. Sega also had a widely advertised adapter that allowed the Mega Drive to play Master System games.
Anyway, nerdy retro gaming stuff aside, there is definitely a gradient across Valve, that is mostly driving a software platform across a ton of third party hardware, the 4K twins, which are relatively focused on service providing and Nintendo, which is somewhat more focused on a single platform, at least so far. It's very much not black and white and very much not a new thing, though.
And in any case, the smooth gradient does mean that ultimately it should be fair to at least compare Deck sales to console sales.
PieMePlenty@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 18:22
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Maybe handheld gaming PCs aren’t something that has mass market appeal? It feels like theres so many variables that depend on it. Exclusives? Price? Ease of use? Brand recognition? Advertising? Im glad Valve is happy with deck’s sales numbers becuase it means we will probably keep seeing more support for it and newer models down the line. It still feels like if Microsoft launched a handheld xbox, it would probably still be a console first experience without traditional PC functionality and probably sell more while directly competing with switch 2. Definitely will be interesting to see how handheld PC pan out in the next 5 years, right now it feels like a slowly emerging market.
As you say, it doesn't seem that manufacturers are too unhappy with their sales here, but I'd also like to see scale grow to the point where we can start seeing devices launch cheaper, rather than more expensive. Besides the presumably heavily subsidized (or at least priced for scale) Deck the more interesting alternatives are luxury items. It'd be nice to see them find some room for more competitive pricing, and that probably requires adding a zero to the sales numbers.
Well, with low-end gpus (like the integrated APU in the Steam Deck) there is still competition. The main reason high-end gpus are so expensive is that there are no alternatives to Nvidia, so they can ask for any price they want
Hm. That is an interesting read, I don't know if I see it. For fast iGPUs it's been all AMD for a while. Nvidia has been threatening to build a faster one, but it seems they may be targeting integrated, fully branded devices for AI instead of gaming or general use.
Intel has started competing there, but so far it's not been a popular pick with handheld manufacturers.
My understanding is this generation there are more powerful parts but they're expensive to implement and they many not be as good at low wattages, but I guess we'll have to wait a while to know for sure. Either way I don't see a reason why there would be downward pressure on prices. Less upwards pressure than Nvidia just throwing a number at the 5080 and 5090 presumably selected from a bingo card, for sure, but still not necessarily down in price to performance.
SolidShake@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 15:25
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The legion go s with steam OS should replace it 10000% but I don’t know if it will. There will never be a steam deck 2 and the steam deck is already outdated and slow.
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 15:27
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touchpads
SolidShake@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 15:30
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Legion go will have one for mouse. Not great for games I’d imagine. But I’d also imagine 99% of people use the joysticks on a steam deck when playing a game.
Man, I strongly dislike the touchpads on all of Valve's controllers. They just hurt my wrists a bunch.
I prefer the optical nub on the GPD Win, which I noticed is making a reappearance in the Legion Go S, actually, so that's a step up for me. Not that I'm in the market for a handheld this gen, I'm mostly set.
Of course the weird mouse mode thing of the big boy Legion Go is a much better brute force solution than either, if you need to use one for any stretch of time beyond clicking the one thing. It's going to be very weird have that turn out to be the model for the Switch 2's mouse gimmick if and when that gets confirmed.
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 16:07
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IMO Valve has the highest quality touchpads that I have ever interacted with on any product. They also pioneered haptic feedback, which makes their touchpads more usable than any other implementation that currently exists.
As a touchpad, maybe. But they're not being used as a touchpad, they're being used as this weird physical input substitute thing that is meant to work with your thumb. Two thumbs, actually. Sliding my thumb that way while holding the thing I'm using causes excruciating pain almost immediately, but even in the brief period until it does it's less functional than a large touchpad, let alone a mouse or a stick.
I know some people swear by them, I just don't think they're worth the space they take up as a pointer device and I don't think they're particularly useful as anything else.
But hey, that's the point of PCs, right? People who agree with me can get the Legion Go S with the actually good Thinkpad-style optical nub and people who like playing games by scratching a plastic square for some reason can stick to the Deck.
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 16:37
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Sliding my thumb that way while holding the thing I’m using causes excruciating pain almost immediately
Super bizarre and atypical. Probably a conversation you should have with your doctor.
I, along with pretty much anyone else that has used it, find they are surprisingly usable with thumbs, as they were designed to be. The left touchpad is especially useful as virtual menu and allows the device to be used effectively in many more games than is possible with other devices that are lacking these hardware features. Informational video and demo of touchpad virtual menu: www.youtube.com/watch?v=vorhbmYIFpg
It is atypical, and certainly a medical issue, but I'm not alone there by any means. People who like these do tend to be loud and proud about it, so they stand out more, but it's worth pointing out that any time Valve has tried to have them as a primary input they had to either reintroduce sticks alongside them or swap them out for sticks altogether. Accessibility wise I know people who share my issues and people who say they interact better with their own mobility problems. That's always the case with ergonomics and accessibility issues. On the plus side, that has taken me into a lively and very expensive habit of controller collecting, so... yay for me.
FWIW, I'm aware of the functionality, which works just as well with a modifier button and a stick. Those things and a lot of the features attached to them are, and have always been, a solution looking for a problem. There are very few games where the developer hasn't provided a viable control mapping that the Steam layers turn into a comfortable gaming experience. In most cases if it's not intended to be used with a controller I'd much rather go sit somewhere with a mouse and keyboard.
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 17:05
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any time Valve has tried to have them as a primary input they had to either reintroduce sticks alongside them or swap them out for sticks altogether
Such as…? Or are you just referring to the original Steam Controller teaser concept, compared to the final product that has a left stick in addition to the 2 touchpads (which is objectively a better design, and I appreciate that the left stick was included).
In most cases if it’s not intended to be used with a controller I’d much rather go sit somewhere with a mouse and keyboard.
That’s fine to only use the Steam Deck for games that were designed controller-first, but the point of the device and its major success has been to make any game, including non-controller games, playable in handheld form factor, and Valve’s touchpads have been the primary factor in that success.
This is the reason I see other devices that lack touchpads and can instantly dismiss them, as they aren’t really selling a product that is in the same category as the Steam Deck and therefore do not really compete with the Steam Deck. They are just selling a handheld console (despite the fact that they run Windows, made clear by how awkward and strange the interaction with the OS is), which is something that is not new and have existed since the late 80s. The Steam Deck is not a handheld console, it is a handheld PC. It is true that there are other examples of handheld PC devices, which are true competitors to Steam Deck, like GDP Win, but these attempts have not been nearly as successful.
The OG Steam controller was a bust in general, but yeah, they ended up having to add a stick there. And the original Vive controllers were touchpad-only, which was a bad choice that was reverted somewhere in the process of Valve exiting the picture and every other VR controller standardizing around sticks instead. And notably the Steam Deck launched with dual sticks in a standard configuration despite insisting on keeping the dual trackpads, but very few competitors have followed suit. One touchpad, sure, because these all need a remedial solution for a pointing device, but two is rare (I can think of one other example).
So yeah, Valve has been dragged kicking and screaming back to the standard layout, much as they seem to not want to entirely let go of the idea for some reason. There aren't many examples because they don't make a ton of hardware, but there is nothing in the history of those haptic trackpads to suggest that they're a runaway hit with users that will become the go-to for input devices. There's a lot more evidence for the opposite.
I fundamentally disagree that the touchpads had anything to do with the Deck's success. Reading reviews, looking at usage lists and just looking at how the thing is used, the killer feature is and has always been the ridiculously low price for what it packs and the user-friendly UI. The entire point of SteamOS is making the device manageable with the sticks alone and not needing a pointer device as much as the Windows alternatives. You're projecting your tastes onto it pretty heavily there.
I have to say, there is so much self-contradiction in people that get activist about this segment. And I say that as someone heavily invested in it. I upgraded from the OG Deck to the OLED and I own other handhelds. But man, people need to decide whether the reason the Deck is great is that it IS a console that works like a console and doesn't need to mess around with annoying Windows quirks... or a full-fledged PC that is not really competing with consoles.
Look, the Deck is a very, very, very cheap handheld PC that is less performant and not as sleek as some of the more boutique alternatives, but it's the best value in that space. And it's less of a hassle to use out of the box than the Windows alternatives (although the difference is smaller than most people claim, honestly). It's not as smooth as a console, it's clunky and it's less compatible than inititally promised. And not as successful as you'd think from the attention it gets. But it's good. Not best in class in most areas, but definitely best in value by a large margin.
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 17:47
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The OG Steam controller was a bust in general
Lol on planet earth? It sold over 1 million units in a couple months, and is so beloved and sought after that they go for over $150 in box on secondhand markets still today… Is it my favorite controller for playing games that are designed for controller? No, of course not, but that’s not what it is for… For playing non-controller games from the couch while docked to the TV, though? Absolutely indispensable, there is nothing else that exists that comes close to the success of the Steam Controller.
despite insisting on keeping the dual trackpads
Valve has been dragged kicking and screaming back to the standard layout
I don’t think anyone has ever expected or suggested that analog stick would not be included or do not belong on the Steam Deck, including Valve. The idea that Valve is against analog stick or attempted to not include them in the first place is ludicrous and the points you make about this are completely moot lol. The point of the device is to allow play of all games, and the sticks obviously play a role in that for games that were designed to be played with them. There’s never been any dragging or kicking or screaming.
Obviously there are many factors that contribute to the success of the Steam Deck: price, hardware performance, input features, Steam OS usability, compatibility with the vast majority of Steam libraries, etc. My point is that the touchpads are a discriminator between a handheld PC and a handheld console, a subtle but real difference. Comparing the Steam Deck to handheld consoles, it is not even close to the same sales of these devices like Nintendo Switch. But it doesn’t matter, it is still hailed as a major success, because it isn’t a handheld console.
One million units in the accessory market may as well be zero. The game controller market is woth billions each year just in the US. Specific per-company market share is hard to come by, but I'll put it this way: none of the data I've seen even includes Valve as a player in the space.
I do have a Steam Controller and it will continue to sit in a box next to the Steam Link indefinitely, because see above about having a collecting issue with controllers. My solution for playing non-controller games on the TV ended up being a lapboard with an embedded keyboard an a mouse area from Roccat, which they've discontinued because they're dumb.
The points I make about the success of the pads are entirely reasonable, seeing how Valve DID in fact market them as stick and button replacements on the original and included them instead of having sticks on the Vive controllers. They tried to sell them as a replacement, they did not work for that.
The Steam Controller is in this bizarre space where it bombed so hard it is not remembered at all by most and yet it has been subject to this revisionist history where instead of being briefly available and getting discontinued because nobody really wanted them or was using them it was a massive success that is not being made anyway because... I don't know, because they're special and unique and Valve doesn't want to devalue them? I have no idea how this is supposed to have gone down.
I mean, it's fine, it's not even close to the weirdest piece of tech I own. Not even the weirdest controller I own. But it was never a killer app, it was never particularly successful and the dumb touchpads were absolutely marketed as being superior to physical controls and were extremely not that. I was there for the fifteen minutes it took everybody to decide this, I remember.
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 18:32
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Memory and thumbs, two conversations that you need to have with a doctor lol. You can literally just look at Steam Controller reviews and reception, these webpages all still exist on the internet… Basically the only thing that it is dinged on in reviews is the plastic build quality (totally valid, the plastic does feel cheap), lack of compatibility with Mac, and need for input mapping. The worst that I have ever seen said about the touchpads on it is “it takes getting used to” for games that are controller-first, while for non-controller games they are completely intuitive and just work.
Neither I, nor Valve, have ever pushed the touchpads as a stick replacement, and I will just keep reiterating my point that they are indispensable for use with non-controller games and without them, the product is lacking to the point of being unusable for these types of games. Continuing to try to make points about stick replacement is a deflection and a strawman, honestly.
it was a massive success that is not being made anyway because… I don’t know, because they’re special and unique
We’re talking about Valve, this is basically their MO. Same could be said about their games… Half-Life, Portal, Left 4 Dead, Team Fortress: “massive success that is not being made anyway because… I don’t know, because they’re special and unique” yup. The only thing that is weird about Steam Controller stopping production is they didn’t stop after 2.
I have no doubt that some diehard PC gamers will put in tons of time customizing Steam Controller profiles, practicing, and becoming much more accurate than they ever would be with gamepad aiming. But the best you’re ever going to get is almost as good as a mouse, and I think games designed for an Xbox or PlayStation pad will still play better with the native hardware. Spending hours trying out the Steam Controller in the living room, I realized that don’t see much reason to make that compromise. There are very few PC games without controller support that I really want to play on my TV. When I tried, I mostly ended up just missing my mouse.
Hilariously the guy got much more negative (honest?) about it over time.
It works great for typing in Steam Big Picture mode or in SteamOS, but it ultimately fails at replicating the speed and precision of a mouse for gaming. Traditional controllers use a thumbstick to let users look around in games, but with the Steam Controller, you’re forced to use the right touchpad to look around and aim. I tried tweaking the sensitivity of the pads for various games but I could find any setting that felt natural. I constantly overshot my targets and relied on the right thumbstick for accuracy instead.
As touched on already, it's difficult for the dual-trackpads to replace the trusty thumbstick, especially when it comes to aiming in first-person shooters, or even moving the camera around. I believe it's certainly possible to get the hang of it and while everything appears to be accurate enough, it simply doesn't feel as responsive as the thumbstick, or rather you don't feel quite in control for quick snappy movements.
Valve being reported as saying trackpads are the superior option at The Escapist while also admitting they couldn't get people to use them:
The machinist said that the new prototype’s analog stick was tied to movement, in order to “ease new players in” to using the two trackpads, by starting them off using just one for aiming. While he said that the prototype had been successful, and that players were eventually able to transition to the dual trackpad layout, its big disadvantage that the controller’s d-pad had to be cut to make room for the stick.
I was there. I bought one. Why do you make me do homework?
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 18:59
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games designed for an Xbox or PlayStation pad will still play better with the native hardware
it’s difficult for the dual-trackpads to replace the trusty thumbstick, especially when it comes to aiming in first-person shooters
you literally just cherry-picked the same “stick replacement” talking point that I’ve already identified as a strawman and irrelevant to this discussion 🤦 Dude, no one is saying that the touchpads are a stick replacement or that the Steam Controller is better for playing controller-first console games. That’s literally why there are 2 analog sticks on the Steam Deck… and why I use them for controller-first games… and why Steam Controller isn’t my favorite or even what I would recommend for controller-first games… If someone at Valve said that once, then they’re wrong. The analog sticks being better for controller games doesn’t change the fact that not having touchpads entirely limits the usability of the device for non-controller games.
If all you play are console games and first-person shooters, 1) that’s totally fine, 2) yeah, you probably don’t get much if any use out of the touchpads. Those aren’t the only games that I play on Steam Deck or while docked to TV, though, and the touchpads on the Steam Deck and Steam Controller allow me to to play these other types of games that would not be possible to play effectively with a typical controller. If the Steam Deck only came with touchpads and no sticks, then we would be limited in the other direction. It has both, but other devices marketed as Steam Deck challengers do not have both.
it ultimately fails at replicating the speed and precision of a mouse for gaming
Obviously… lol, its not like the intention was ever to be using the Steam Controller at a desk while gaming on a desktop instead of using the mouse… but I’m not going to use a traditional mouse when sitting on my couch. Still irrelevant
Valve said it. It's not a straw man. I'm not cherry picking. Those are direct quotes from contemporary reviewers going off Valve's marketing and review guides. The first that I could find, too, there's only so much homework I'm willing to do.
The damn thing went to market with that as a USP. They told everybody the pads were superior before they had to backtrack on it and add a single stick because they couldn't get playtesters to go along with it.
If you think you know better than Valve and they mismarketed the thing... well, great. Good for you. But they still mismarketed the thing, people still reviewed it as a stick replacement and it still reviewed poorly on that front.
Now, I'd argue it was also poor at being a mouse replacement, which is also something mentioned in contemporary reviews. It may technically enable you to play a strategy game, but you're not going to excel at Dota 2 on a Steam Controller. There are multiple superior alternatives. Most obviously to just... you know, go to a desk and play with a mouse, but there are also multiple solutions to have a laptop mouse and keyboard combo. There was that Roccat solution and there are a number of variants on "here's a flat surface with a USB hub inside it" you can use for that, if you must.
So if it's not a great standard controller replacement and it's not a great mouse replacement, what is it for? It never solved the issue of playing mouse and keyboard games on the couch effectively, which by your own account was the entire idea (even though it wasn't). The solution to that ended up being developers adding mouse and keyboard options instead. And maybe gyro aiming.
In any case, we at least got Steam Input out of it, which never did much to fix the shortcomings of the Steam Controller, but is a solid tool to enhance controller support for other devices and it picks up the slack from Sony refusing to properly support their controllers on PC.
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 19:34
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Arguing against a point that actually isn’t the argument the other person is making is the definition of strawman. I am not arguing that the touchpads are good for replacing sticks. Making the point that touchpads are bad at replacing sticks over and over again is a textbook example of a strawman. I agree with you on it, it is irrelevant, it doesn’t score you any points against what I am actually saying.
So if it’s not a great standard controller replacement and it’s not a great mouse replacement
Correct, yes, we all agree here.
what is it for?
Playing non-controller games from the couch or in a handheld form factor. Lmfao
It never solved the issue of playing mouse and keyboard games on the couch effectively
This is where we disagree and what you have not actually made any points on that support your opinion that touchpads do not solve this effectively, besides it hurts your thumbs, which is a you thing, really
No, friend, the argument you're making is that Valve didn't sell it based on its ability to replace sticks or mice, which is what is incorrect.
Also, there are no points. This is a conversation, not basketball.
Explain to me how we can simultaneoulsy agree that it's not a great mouse replacement and you can still claim that it's a good solution to play non-controller games.
What non-controller games are these that don't rely on a mouse? Have we been arguing about your Donkey Konga or Typing of the Dead controller all along?
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 19:56
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No, friend, the argument you’re making is that Valve didn’t sell it based on its ability to replace sticks or mice, which is what is incorrect.
What??? No, reading comprehension (probably a good idea to understand the argument the other person is making before engaging with them). As I’ve stated over and over, the Steam Controller is good for playing non-controller games on the couch. Here, literally the first marketing paragraph from the literal Steam website…
Wow, gee… the exact point I’ve made over and over…
Its not a great mouse replacement
This means that I’m not going to sit down at my desk to play games on my desktop and choose to pick up a Steam Controller instead of just using the mouse that is right there. That does not mean that the touchpads aren’t still great for using with mouse-based games, which they are, it “solves the issue of playing mouse and keyboard games on the couch effectively”, but yeah it isn’t better than a mouse. The Steam Controller has not replaced using a mouse.
I don't think anyone has ever expected or suggested that analog stick would not be included or do not belong on the Steam Deck, including Valve. The idea that Valve is against analog stick or attempted to not include them in the first place is ludicrous and the points you make about this are completely moot lol.
I mean, it's easier homework if I only have to scroll up. You said what you said. Valve said what they said.
The weird part is we've ended up in the same place as the original Steam Controller. From being the "everything controller" that will support all types of games on a TV to being... well, not the right controller for games with controller support and clearly not as good as a mouse and keyboard for everything else, but hey, you could play stuff this way if you really wanted to.
Which is obviously not a great value proposition. "Hey, here's a slightly worse way to play a few of your games on a TV instead of at your desk" was never going to revolutionize gaming.
Oh, and by the way, I let this pass earlier because we weren't focusing on it, but for the Steam Deck specifically, the idea that the touchpads are "irreplaceable" and completely change the game when compared to other devices is also kind of confusing because...
... well, there's a touchscreen right there.
Not all games play well with touch inputs, but when you pile that on top of everything else the slice of games where the touchpads are an irreplaceable, indispensable requirement is vanishingly small.
I don't have a problem with people liking weird or inconvenient controls, mind you. It's just that I really would have prefered a version of the Deck that didn't need the Dumbo ears for the sake of keeping that weird vestigial remnant of the Steam Machines era.
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 20:44
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I don’t think anyone has ever expected or suggested that analog stick would not be included or do not belong on the Steam Deck, including Valve. The idea that Valve is against analog stick or attempted to not include them in the first place is ludicrous and the points you make about this are completely moot lol.
What point are you making by quoting this…? Like… I stand by the quote. Yup, its not a stick replacement. Yup, the sticks have always belonged on the Steam Deck and it was never intended to be touchpad-only.
“Hey, here’s a slightly worse way to play a few of your games on a TV instead of at your desk”
Compared to… what is the better way, exactly? It’s actually: “Hey, here’s a way to play a few (‘few’ 🙄 sure) of your games on a TV instead of at your desk that you couldn’t have done before with a controller”. Or is your answer “Just play those games on a desktop with a mouse! Stop having fun!” lmfao
… well, there’s a touchscreen right there.
Do you have three hands…? How are you holding the controller while operating the triggers and buttons and using the touchscreen at the same time? Using your nose to touch the screen? I think maybe you “let that one pass” for a reason 😉 (it doesn’t make any sense and isn’t relevant to the discussion). Are you genuinely proposing that “touchpads are bad and hard to use” but “the touch screen is a viable way to play mouse-based games”??
for the sake of keeping that weird vestigial remnant of the Steam Machines era.
Lmao boy, you are not going to like the Steam Deck 2 when it comes out. Guarantee that touchpads will continue to be first class citizens
Neither I, nor Valve, have ever pushed the touchpads as a stick replacement, and I will just keep reiterating my point that they are indispensable for use with non-controller games and without them,
Valve DID say they were a stick replacement. Maybe we can keep going until we catch up with ourselves.
I'm confused about why playing on your desk is "not fun", but I assume that was a joke? Besides that I've also mentioned multiple ways to use a mouse and keyboard on a TV, which I do routinely and it's just fine with next to no compromises. Plus the touchscreen on a Deck, motion controls and other stuff.
For the record, the touchscreen doesn't need a third hand at all. Plenty of games are perfectly playable touch-only and for anything with partial touch support it's barely an inconvenience to tap something on the screen and go back to the controllers. Maybe at this point you should tell me what mystery game absolutely requires a dual touchpad setup but doesn't require the responsiveness of precision of a mouse, thus making it indispensible to have your handheld device be the width of a tabloid or your controller have no right stick.
Because, honestly, I'm drawing a blank here. The proportion of games that don't support controllers, can't be navigated with a single touchpad and a touchscreen but would not require a full mouse setup is very small, in my book. And, frankly, for whatever those are the real answer is to... you know, play something else? Not every game needs to be played on every device. I wouldn't play some games on a Deck not because they lack controller features but simply because they're not the best fit for the device and I have thousands of other games I could play instead that feel at home on a handheld.
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 21:08
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The proportion of games that don’t support controllers, can’t be navigated with a single touchpad and a touchscreen but would not require a full mouse setup is very small
Hmm, gee, let me think… perhaps any game where you need to be able to point the mouse without clicking or while clicking several times, or any game where you need the ability to left click or right click? Lmfao a tiny miniscule proportion of games, right???
Or maybe even a game where you need to press A to jump or X to interact while also controlling the mouse? I’m sure there’s only one or two games ever made like that… 🤦
You didn't mention any games. What games are those.
Do I point the mouse without clicking in Monster Train or Slay the Spire? Yes. But also, those games have touch and controller support, so I can do the same in other ways. What game would I play on a handheld that requires that but doesn't have any other way to do the same? That's not rhetorical, I'm drawing a blank here.
Where do you need to jump or press buttons on a controller while controlling the mouse? What is that? What game has controller support but also requires a pointer? I mean, Abuse, but that was in 1996, so maybe not that? Most games that use mouse aiming when playing on a keyboard map that to the right stick, off the top of my head.
Surely there's a list of games you played this way with a Steam Controller or on Deck touchpads that wouldn't play well elsewhere. They must have names. Right?
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 21:36
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What game would I play on a handheld that requires that but doesn’t have any other way to do the same?
Umm… literally any RTS or management game… left click… right click… dragging entities around… multiselecting entities by dragging a box on screen… Good luck with the right stick for that, I’m sure its WAY easier to use it for these tasks than just using a touchpad to point the mouse, right? 🙄 Lmao.
Where do ou need to jump or press buttons on a controller while controlling the mouse? What is that?
Umm… literally any platformer or side scroller or top down game that has aim controls…
RTSs are unplayable on touchpads. I thought we agreed that touchpads aren't a good mouse replacement for anything requiring precision. Who is out there doing micro on Starcraft 2 on a Steam Controller?
And no, absolutely not true that side scrollers with aim controls need a touchpad. Bloodstained? Maps it to the right stick. Prince of Persia? Right stick. The entire Trine series? Right stick.
I hate when platformers require analogue inputs in the first place, because come on, you want to use a d-pad. But even then I can't think of a single example (since Abuse) that requires you to move and do analogue aim but won't support an analogue stick for that. The common name of top down games with free aim these days is "twin stick shooters", even. Nex Machina? Right stick. Minishoot? Right stick. Oooh, Knight Witch. Underrated. Right stick.
Rimworld, which I haven't played much, IS definitely a mouse and keyboard game. Same issue as with RTSs, though. I would absolutely not try to play that with a controller. Or a touchpad of any kind. Hell, the screen size would be a dealbreaker there.
We're looking for a bit of a unicorn here. It needs to be so coarse and slow that you can comfortably use a dual touchpad setup, but too cumbersome for a single touchpad or a touchscreen. Or somehow not supporting controllers but only for right stick aiming. Which Steam Input can simulate with a stick anyway.
Look, I'm not saying you can't prefer to play that way. You're in a very slim minority but you can absolutely be that guy.
I am saying that your choice is not anywhere near the only choice or the best choice. And for the places where playing with a mouse cursor is a must there is simply no good choice on a controller, with or without touchpads.
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 22:04
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I mean that’s basically like saying “Who is playing Startcraft 2 on a laptop???” lmao the Steam Deck and Steam Controller touchpads are literally more precise and usable than most laptop touchpads due to their quality and advanced haptics, and these games are 100% playable on Deck and TV because of them…
And further, in the same messages you accept “using a single touchpad”, so like… you agree with me… great. And to satisfy your “dual touchpad” requirement, like I said waaaaaay back up at the top, the left touchpad is great for virtual menus. Pretty indispensable again in any RTS game, or mmoRPG, or pretty much any other games designed for keyboard with complex keybinds that a controller cannot support. An analog stick can work with simple virtual menus, but only doesn’t totally suck when it is a radial menu. The virtual menu use is pretty much the only reason I use the left touchpad, and yet its so useful for making these types of games playable that it justifies its place on the Steam Deck.
Your argument, once again, amounts to: “Stop having fun!!”
I have no idea where you saw me saying anything about "using a single touchpad" where I was agreeing with you. I said I wouldn't play those games on any touchpad, single or dual, haptic or not.
You also underestimate how powerful Steam Input is, weirdly. Chords, button combos and controller layers can be combined into surprisingly complex setups. Probably too complex, unless you like playing Steam Input more than you like playing your game, but definitely very capable of doing as much as the left pad. Which, by the way, can be mapped to a radial menu and that's about it. Let's not get crazy with our much real state you have on that thing, especially if you're trying to do anything time-sensitive.
And no, the argument isn't "stop having fun", the argument is "don't force games that aren't fun on a controller to be on a controller". I can't imagine having fun with a fast mouse-driven game on the tiny touchpad on the Deck, or even in the larger one on the Steam Controller. Or on a huge Macbook touchpad or on ANY touchpad. They don't need to be coaxed to work poorly on a mediocre replacement when they work great on the native control setup they're designed for. A few cases overlap enough to make things work well enough, but then the lack of an overengineered dual touchpad setup is not the limiting factor because there are so many alternatives in modern devices, from motion controls to touchscreens and paddles.
The touchpads were always a solution looking for a problem, even when controllers were a lot simpler. Now they're a sub-par solution looking for a problem.
Out of curiosity, what RTSs do you play on the Deck or the Steam Controller? Because I've tried that (it was 2015, I had just gotten a Steam Controller and didn't know any better) and it's one of the least pleasant gaming experiences I can imagine. Did you really do that on purpose or is this a hypothetical?
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 22:37
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Chords, button combos and controller layers can be combined into surprisingly complex setups.
Ah yes, complex and hard-to-remember controller mappings, so much easier than: put thumb on pad -> make selection. Great point lmao. No one is saying that you can’t rig up solutions for controller, just that they are difficult to use and less payable than just using the touchpad. This very thing is probably what is driving you away from playing these games on Deck back to your computer or keyboard-lapboard gadget thing.
Probably too complex, unless you like playing Steam Input more than you like playing your game, but definitely very capable of doing as much as the left pad.
I agree 100%
Which, by the way, can be mapped to a radial menu and that’s about it
You underestimate how powerful Steam Input is, weirdly. Lmao
what RTSs do you play on the Deck or the Steam Controller?
Manor Lords. Total War games are great too. Civilization is turn based but still the same input mechanics and is much better on the TV due to the touchpads. Management games have all the same input mechanics as RTS but different gameplay, the obvious example is Rimworld, but also things like Zoo Tycoon and Cities: Skylines. All of these are totally playable, and several I, personally, prefer on the couch
“don’t force games that aren’t fun on a controller to be on a controller”
except they are fun and 100% playable, thanks to the touchpads. This is just what we actually disagree on, and MANY people agree with me here and use the Steam Deck to play these games, it isn’t some obscure or niche opinion, and its a major discriminator between the Steam Deck and other handhelds that are lacking in these input features
I mean, "MANY" in relation to, say, how many people would show up to someone's birthday party. Not "MANY" as in "the size of a videogame audience". We kinda know that for a fact. For reference, Steam does show the most played games on Deck. The first game with no official controller support shows up at 79. It's The Sims 4. For what it's worth, the two most used Steam Input configs do use the trackpads, but they just map the right one as a mouse and have the left one mapped to four directional functions. If your argument for the dual trackpads was simplicity, let me tell you, both of these configs are complete spaghetti, so I don't think that holds much water.
Rimworld is in there, suprisingly, in the 80s. Made me count all the way there, they should really put numbers on that list. Those seem to be the sole two mouse-driven entries. There are no RTS games, tycoon games or city builders that I can see.
In any case, you're right that we agree on whether playing strategy games on a touchpad is fun. It really is not.
By the way, you do realize your counter to the radial menu thing was a screenshot of a radial menu, right? The fact that it's using squares doesn't change how that works (except for how a grid layout actually fits fewer things than a radial menu, but that's neither here nor there).
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 23:18
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I mean… for any game in the top 500 on Steam Deck… That sure would be one hell of a birthday party. You must have no concept of how big of a number 4 million is and how many people are playing these games on Deck…
Do you just not know what a radial menu is? The grid layout fits as many things as you configure it to, and the layout and arrangement of squares are fully configurable, which can be more useful and contextual than a radial menu… you should really watch that video I linked above, especially if you have time to spend counting games in the steam list lmao
a grid layout actually fits fewer things than a radial menu
Area scales faster than perimeter/circumference. You are literally, mathematically, incorrect. 36 buttons in a grid would still be readable and usable, with only 6 buttons per row, while 36 slices of a circle would be an unreadable squished mess with 9 items in each quadrant… That radial menu would likely need to be the size of the screen
And for the record, its not really a surprise or supportive of your argument that controller-first games are more popular, given that the Steam Deck also works great for controller-first games… like… duh?? That doesn’t prove the point you think it does
Granblue Relink is just about closing that top 100 and has about 650 players right now. That's not on Deck, that's across all of Steam.
That's a big birthday party, but not an all-timer.
I know what a radial menu is. The menu you sent is a nine square grid, which is a neutral spot surrounded by eight directional inputs. So a radial menu.
You can make other menus, but you just happened to send me a radial menu, specifically. Which I suspect was chosen there because, like I said, the small touchpad at best suits a radial menu or a directional menu.
And the point isn't that controller-first games are more popular, it's that mouse-first games are quite unpopular. Several big mouse-first games are in the overall most played list but not on the Deck list. Others appear lower. DOTA 2, for one, which is at the top of the overall and nowhere to be seen on the Deck top 100.
And yeah, when somebody argues something iffy in an online discussion I'm the kind of person to go and check. I don't mind being wrong that much, but I do want to know.
Homework.
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 23:49
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Granblue Relink is just about closing that top 100 and has about 650 players right now. That’s not on Deck, that’s across all of Steam.
So a completely different measure than what is used for ranking Great on Steam Deck games…? 🤦 Comparison to concurrent users just isn’t valid because Great on Steam Deck ranking aren’t measured by concurrent users…
it’s that mouse-first games are quite unpopular
Evidence needed. Also, did you purposely leave out the fact that Civ VII is literally #2 trending on the Deck right now because it proves you argument wrong or…?
It's a different measure because Valve does not disclose full install counts at all, let alone per hardware type, but it does provide concurrent users. I work with what I have. In any case, the top of the list is in the hundreds of thousands of concurrent users, so that does show that the top 100 on Deck does run the gamut until fairly low in usage. That's not a surprise, gaming is very winner-takes-all right now, particularly on PC. Steam user counts drop VERY quickly, so your argument that the top 500 is all huge is not accurate.
As for Civ VII, I was going off the last top 100 list, which is yearly and thus covering a period before the Civ VII launch, but Civ VI was actually there and I missed it. It shows up at 37. That's now 3% of the list that is mouse driven. I stand corrected. You're still wrong.
By the way, speaking of using different metrics, "trending" games aren't built on absolute numbers, so top played and trending don't line up at all. I'm assuming Civ VII will make the cut on Deck whenever it does get counted on absolute usage, though.
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 26 Feb 00:41
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Makes invalid comparisons based on incompatible measures and draws incorrect conclusions
Not most users, not even as Valve intended (on the Deck, at least).
They literally reserved the green "Verified" badge for games with full controller support and are the only ones eligible for the "Great on Deck" tab. Mouse and Keyboard games get the yellow "Playable" tag instead and a warning on boot.
See, that's the sad part about actually looking things up. It takes time, people get to nitpick it to death and then some guys will just... you know, say stuff.
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 26 Feb 13:00
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It means official full controller support with the default config. There are few games that provide official controller support over Steam Input in the first place, even fewer that have any touchpad custom inputs by default and I'm not even sure if there are any that are Steam Verified. At a glance it's... what, just Rimworld again? Maybe some first party stuff left over from the Steam Machines fiasco? Sims is only Playable. Civ VII, which you called out earlier, I suspect incorrectly, has official all-stick support, what with having launched on consoles day and date. I haven't checked it because I haven't bought it yet, so if I'm wrong let me know. Civ VI doesn't have default controller support, but it's only Playable as well. In fact, if you have a list of verified games with touchpad default support I'd love to see it. I'm genuinely curious.
Look, you get to live in this very specific alternate reality where the only difference is people love dual touchpads as a main input system. That's fine, you're not hurting anybody. I get hung up on it because blatant misrepresentations on social media are fairly upsetting these days and because I'm still not over having had to use the dumb touchpads on the Vive for a couple of years back there.
But man, is it exhausting to watch it act as a proxy of some much more important crap in real time.
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 26 Feb 13:37
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Wow this “alternate reality” seems pretty immersive:
My experience with them has been pretty great. I was able to play a mouse and keyboard game with them without issue (in my case, the games I tested this with were Planet Zoo and FrostPunk). From my experience in the past with Steam controller, it’s the same if not better.
People have been playing every type of game out there with the Steam Controller for years. The efficacy of trackpads is self-evident.
I like to use them for typically very mouse-oriented games, like RTS and point-n-click adventures. They also help make navigating the desktop mode a snap.
Trackpads are highly underrated as inputs for the simple reason that there are two
the touchpads work great as a mouse replacement in games like Civilization VI, which was surprisingly playable on the Steam Deck.
Gee, what kind of “homework” did you even do? These were the top 3 search results for “steam deck trackpad review”, skipping over a Reddit post titled " Steam Deck Trackpads are Actually Good" which was the #2 search result
Hah. Man, you were fuming about that one for a while, huh?
I said at the very tippy top of this thread that
I know some people swear by them, I just don't think they're worth the space they take up as a pointer device
and later
People who like these do tend to be loud and proud about it, so they stand out more
It's no surprise that there are people swearing by them loudly and proudly. In fact, there are more people doing that than the opposite, because most people just... you know, ignore the whole thing altogether and haven't through about the Steam Controller in a decade.
The reason I was pulling quotes for you is that you denied the touchpad reception in the OG Controller was mixed and that Valve was presenting them as a stick substitute, which was demonstrably incorrect.
theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world
on 26 Feb 16:10
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What was I “fuming” about…? Wdym?
“Everyone around me says they have positive experiences with the touchpads! They’re the ones that are wrong and I am right, because… the real people just ignore them and don’t post about it!!!”
Lmao. Yeah, I’m the one in an alternate reality here…
Not everybody around me. Nobody around me has ever mentioned a touchpad outside of threads about the touchpad. It's not a thing.
Everybody on Steam seems to be playing controller games on sticks, though. At least from the data Steam shares. Which matches reviews at the time (and later, when people had to pay attention to them on the Deck), the way games on Deck are put together by devs, the low sales of the Controller, the changes to the Vive controller, the lack of other hardware manufacturers doing dual touchpads and pretty much every other piece of info at scale we have beyond anecdote.
Man, online chatter sucks and does bad things to people. I think I'm done with this. Have fun with the dual pads Valve bestowed upon you. I don't need you to change your mind about their popularity, but man, there's going to be a Smithers moment for you at some point on something else and it sure would be good if you thought back to this.
Ta.
ampersandrew@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 15:29
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Because some people love going off headlines, and not the actual articles, and then further twist information, to promote their narrative.
They never said there will never be one. They said there won’t be yearly incremental releases, because they want a substantial performance leap. And that is something I strongly admire. Makes the customers feel more secure in their choice, and lets Valve work on new stuff in peace
Well that’s cool. I heard just last year they weren’t going to and instead just make steam os more available. I’m not going to scrounge the internet for one video I saw several months ago sorry.
But what’s weird is when I look for steam deck 2 I get contradicting info like “steam deck several years away” and in the exact same particle “possibly late 2025”
it can still run everything, nothing outdated about it just yet
SolidShake@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 17:37
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It can “run” everything you mean. I at games that either struggle to stay above 30 or look worse than switch graphics. So because a game can run doesn’t mean it’s viably playable to other people. I think the aim should be medium settings for new games at a steady 40fps for the next deck. But for now we have to rely on Linux optimization.
I’m sorry man but you are just plain wrong on this front. Try any games that are on Switch and compare them to whatever settings you need to get 30+ fps on a Steam Deck. A couple that come to mind would be The Witcher 3, and The Outer Worlds. The Switch versions of those games are absolutely abysmal to play, but on the Deck you can absolutely play both of them all the way through just fine. No one on the planet should expect a Steam Deck to hold up to a proper gaming rig or even a PS5 Pro, but to say it’s worse than a Switch is just ignorance or a flat out lie.
explodIng_lIme@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 17:51
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That is over generalising. I got Control recently (great game BTW) and it technically runs but isn’t really playable. That said I still love that little machine and it is an auto include in my bag whenever I’m away from my desktop for a longer time.
When you are competing with PCs and home consoles. <30fps is slow in my opinion. Or. Turn the graphics super low and get maybe ~40?
The CPU/GPU is subpar
The ram is okay for most games, but soon 32 will be the new required standard.
The ssd makes apple seem generous…
I’m not bashing on it, I enjoy the steam deck, but if someone were to say they want to buy one right now I’d suggest waiting for legion go s or “the next steam deck” a few years from now. Unless valve cuts the cost of the steam deck by at least $100 each model, it’s not worth it anymore. There are dozens of better handhelds that you can install steam os on instead.
Note. I do also realize the steam deck community is hardcore shilly and everything I said will be read but not actually enter a brain and just passed off. Which is fine. Like I said I like the steam deck overall.
ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml
on 25 Feb 19:15
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Personally, I think the Deck is too big for my tastes, but the beauty of the ecosystem is that anyone can make one while still having almost all the Deck features.
I’d love to have a Vita or even PSP sized Steam handheld with a great screen for smaller titles, but that comes with its own problems
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works
on 25 Feb 20:37
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At some point you’re going to struggle to put a capable x86 machine in a device that small.
Yeah the one big thing Valve probably won’t touch is ARM because unlike WINE, that’s a whole other beast in which the only valid solution is for game devs to compile for ARM, because translation layers like Rossetta and Box64 will always have 20-30% performance losses.
There’s been reports of Valve looking at ARM for Proton actually but x86 chips keep getting better and more efficient. Not to mention Mali and Adreno are laughably bad compared to Radeon and Arc.
Honestly though I love the size of the deck but could even go a little bigger. Agree that as more manufacturers start using SteamOS it will be great to have options.
Are you kidding me? Steam Deck is so big and clunky. Don’t even get me started on the piss poor ergonomics and the thing is fucking heavy as shit too!
I love it because it’s open source, but it’s shortcomings really leave a lot to be desired in my opinion.
BumpingFuglies@lemmy.zip
on 26 Feb 00:54
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That’s just, like, your opinion, man.
I think it’s perfectly sized. No need for change. And the OLED model is noticeably more lightweight than the original LCD model, so the newer one isn’t too heavy.
I’m with you, I have large hands but I’m a serious gamer. An hour in and I’m already feeling it’s weight and feeling the fatigue. It’s a very impressive device, but it doesn’t suit me and my needs at all.
Bought an r36s and it’s glorious. Playing all the classic SNES and PSX games I didn’t play back in the day. Can grind in an RPG for hours one handed and it fits in my pocket. Bonus is that it’s so cheap if it breaks or gets lost it’s no big deal.
What are you playing that needs more then the deck currently offers?
Jimmycakes@lemmy.world
on 26 Feb 00:14
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Truck simulator
gallopingsnail@lemmy.sdf.org
on 26 Feb 01:20
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Both Euro and American truck sims run just fine on my Steam Deck. Not on max settings, mind, but it’s good enough for the small screen.
4shtonButcher@discuss.tchncs.de
on 26 Feb 11:21
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I play some Helldivers and Marvel Rivals on my ultrawide for example. And while I’m currently playing Cyberpunk on my Xbox I might play similar titles on a computer too
Until more recently when they started getting competion, what other handheld gaming PCs even existed?
ampersandrew@lemmy.world
on 25 Feb 22:15
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The first one I had was a GPD Win 2, in like 2018/2019-ish. You could do some fairly recent 3D stuff on it at the time, but it was better for 2D games.
There’s been a handful but nothing I could name off the top of my head and the specs meant anything more impressive than Super Meat Boy might be out of the question.
Just cheap crappy Windows 8 tablets for the most part, with controller buttons tacked on.
Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 25 Feb 22:33
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GPDwin for example?
I always wanted a mini laptop basically as big as my current phone but actually mobile.
Sadly I didnt have enough F-U money :(
thedirtyknapkin@lemmy.world
on 26 Feb 02:37
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there’s always handheld gaming pcs being released and going nowhere. the current generation includes the rog Ally and the Lenovo legion.
if you don’t follow this stuff religiously you’ve probably never heard of them, but they are out there. it’s just that no one really buys them.
the steam deck is the first successful one, but companies have been trying to make something like this for years.
SplashJackson@lemmy.ca
on 25 Feb 22:40
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They are, in almost every way, taking the console model approach. Updates when there is a significant generational leap and not just yearly updates because AMD made a slightly faster APU (though they did the switch to switch OLED thing but no one complained about that because they kept the LCD models for sale and the OLED really is nicer), selling at a loss (and making up for it in game sales) and of course, the ease of use that a console interface offers over a traditional PC interface.
Then they step it up beyond that by making it as open as possible (software/emulation, games from any source, it’s really a PC) and making the hardware repairable (making parts available and easy to fix in the first place,) and of course, cheap games and practically every game you’d ever want.
What the other handheld PC companies are lacking is (with some exceptions) repairability, that console experience, and price. Us nerds that can do whatever with technology will do it, so a legion or an ally or a gpd will sell just fine to that demographic, especially for the frame rate chasers. But for most of the rest of people, they would just get a switch or a PS5 or Xbox because it’s just plug in and game, and at least in the case of a Switch or Xbox S, the cost of entry is way lower than a PC, be it a gaming desktop/laptop, or even many of the handheld PC competitors. Yes you can build comparable cheap PCs to an Xbox or PS5, but that means building a PC, and most people don’t want to do that (I’m not talking to you, I know you have a sweet rig.) Yes I know games on PC are usually cheaper especially Steam sales or key seller/bundle sites, but console gamers often don’t consider that, and initial cost of entry is very important to non-enthusiast type people in any given hobby.
There’s a reason why Nintendo consoles sell so well despite being behind the competition in raw horsepower. It’s the console model (and in their case aggressive exclusivity of their famous IPs)
The things keeping Sony and Microsoft in the competition are basically the console ease of use, and their all you can eat subscriptions. Even they both realized that they can get more sales putting their games on PC, but that still means forking over MSRP for a single game, so those ps+ and gamepass subs are keeping them afloat at this point.
I’m a huge tech nerd and have been deep in related industries for over 20 years. I know how to do whatever I want with any pc hardware or software, I own a steam deck, and a rog ally, a proper beefy gaming desktop, a gaming laptop, a Switch, and a PS4. Despite all that, in the past 2 years, easily 90% of my gaming has been on the Steam Deck. It does everything I need it to and more, and it does it anywhere, anyhow. If I want to tweak and tinker with it I can, but more importantly, I can just PLAY GAMES with almost no friction. At home, on a break at work, at the airport waiting for my flight, cozy in bed, wherever, whenever, and fast, and easy.
The Steam Deck is the swiss army knife game device that childhood me always dreamed of, and now it exists. That is why it’s outselling it’s competition, and genuinely making PC gaming a viable thing for the masses. No it won’t beat Nintendo anytime soon, but it’s gaining steam on them and other consoles faster than any other attempt ever has before, and it will only get better.
The ease of use of the Steam Deck cannot be overstated. Yes you can tinker with it a bunch but if you just want to play your games, you download and play. The windows handhelds will never be as easy since windows is just crap for this (and MS is not interested in improving).
SabinStargem@lemmings.world
on 26 Feb 03:06
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I would like Gabe to with the EU to make a EULinux. They both have respective reasons to get away from Microsoft’s control over software, and I would very much like to daily drive a Linux without worrying about game compatibility. Unfortunately, I am stuck with Windows because I play many obscure or old games, and simply hate dealing with technical hassles enough as it is. Here’s hoping that Linux becomes good enough within a couple years from now.
ohshit604@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Feb 03:24
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Here’s hoping that Linux becomes good enough within a couple years from now.
I jumped head first into Linux without any prior knowledge a year-ish ago, I went and chose what seemed to be a simple distro (Debian) and later found out it’s one of the more difficult distros out there (also most native packages are outdated) and some how made it work day to day.
Basically every game on steam is Linux compatible and a good handful of popular anti-cheats have partnered with Valve to ensure proper compatibility.
Now the problem is, game producers (like Ubisoft & EA) have been pushing this rhetoric that Linux users are all cheaters & hackers and intentionally prevent users from connecting to their servers or even launching the games.
I think the switch isn’t as bad as you make it seem. Hope I provided some insight.
SabinStargem@lemmings.world
on 26 Feb 08:11
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I ply in games that aren’t sold on Steam, that require Japanese locale, do mods, and so forth. Edges cases even on Windows can be a problem. My efforts with trying to get into Mint, made it clear that issues would pop up.
Linux is an good idea, but not yet suitable for intermediate users.
If you’re a gamer like me, go with Bazzite. You will not regret it.
thatKamGuy@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Feb 04:12
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I think the biggest hurdle against transitioning away from Windows to Linux for most government offices isn’t the OS itself - but rather the MS Office suite!
You’d honestly be surprised how pervasive Excel is amongst white collar workers; and I think the biggest hurdle is the uncertainty of compatibility (of formulas, macros, workbook links etc.) from Excel to Open/Libre Office alternatives.
My understanding is that Libre Office is the closest to actually being a good replacement to Excel. Having used Libre Office’s Excel equivalent, it does not feel good to use (then again, neither did Excel).
I’m not sure if we’ll ever be able to replace the Microsoft office suite - Microsoft owns the rights to those softwares’ workflow paradigms IIRC, and people who have been taught those workflows are not going to abandon them. I mean, we’ve not even managed to move away from the staggered qwerty layout that was established for typewriters in the 1870’s. I think the only options are for schools to either adopt new paradigms (using opensource software as teaching tools) over mass adoption in industry.
thatKamGuy@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Feb 08:22
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I’ll give Libre Office a crack over the weekend, if/when I get my Bazzite installation going and will see how it goes; I wonder just how much support it has for the newer functions that have outputs that overfill into adjacent cells (e.g. UNIQUE)?
I tried dworak for awhile and just like switching from windows it is a bit rough sometimes. Every game you play have to change keybindings as a person who play a lot of different games it became too much. But writing was so good. So much easier and intuitive. Only took like a week or something to get into it.
It is still a mystery to me why no one ever created software that can automatically pull videogame input config files and rebind for other layouts. I guess it is somewhat niche. At the same time, input config files are all pretty similar and it sounds fairly straightforward as a project.
Lutris has an option to switch to US QWERTY. Also doesn’t take much effort to do manually but it’s buggy with X.org (sometimes it insists on keeping the previous layout for no reason).
It’s not really ever an issue to rebind keys manually, it’s just time consuming. The point of auto-rebind would be time saving for nonstandard keyboard users.
I use BÉPO AFNOR and some games don’t like É instead of W, autorebind only works for me in games that actually have modern keyboard management and use key codes and/or understand Unicode, dead keys, etc. I’m better off setting the keyboard to US QWERTY
The main issue with Excel is that it is not multithreading in all operations.
But for a lot of things it is the only software that can fit the bill.
Libre office feels a lot worse in to work in up to 8 hours a day compared to Excel and it is probably still missing some features like powerquery among others.
I do need to test it again, it has been a while.
Then again I work as accountant so I am probably in minority of Excel users.
The whole handheld gaming market is pretty small. There’s the Switch which outsold the last couple gens of Xboxes and PlayStations. Good luck beating that. Besides that you have smartphones which just about everyone owns and only a handful of brands being especially popular. Then you have dedicated Android having handhelds and handheld emulation machines which are extremely niche.
So either you’re looking at extremely popular and widely owned handheld devices with extensive histories and customer loyalty or extremely niche devices. Not really a great comparison.
I’m just saying there’s not much competition in the handheld space. Either you have massively popular products with an extensive history or extremely niche devices. The handheld PC market is still fairly nascent and Steam Deck dominating it and popularizing it so much (even if it’s not that much compared to, say, the Switch) is still significant.
If you mean the switch, then it has been thoroughly squashed. If you mean phones, well I think we can agree they are not really competing for the same customers, and if you think they do, most people are buying phones for reasons other than gaming. So you’d need a way to section the market for “gaming phones” (yes, that’s a thing).
Basically just read and write emails handheld pc’s but they were not made for gaming.
frezik@midwest.social
on 26 Feb 13:23
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They got the formula right on this space:
Linux, not Windows–Windows provides little that can’t be done on Linux in this space
AMD, not Intel–AMD just has better products at this level (any level at this point, really)
720p–going higher doesn’t provide much at this size except suck battery life and requiring a more powerful GPU
Price
Now, price is partially because Valve can afford to subsidize the cost and expect to make it up on Steam sales. I’d be remiss to ignore how they’re making their money. Still, they’re also able to have a good price because they didn’t try to make it as powerful as it could be, but as powerful as it needed to be.
I wonder how many people, like me, who really use their Steam Deck as a Pirate Deck.
If I see a game I like on Steam Store I simply go to STEAMRlP and grab it pre-installed. Then I run it through Wine/Proton. Installing dependencies is very easy, thanks to steamdb.info + Wine-/Protontricks.
Now, some games I do buy afterwards. KCD2 is one example. The Last Flame another. When I know that I enjoy it, I know what I get for my money, then I can make the decision to buy it.
I’d guess not many. We’re a bit more Linux/tech savvy here but most users would hear “Wine/Proton” alone and freak out. I bring up my terminal and people somehow think I’m “hacking”. With all the convenience with buying and playing games on Steam, their model works (even on PC, with competing platforms and unlimited piracy potential).
Edit: They also have a really great refund policy.
ventusvir@lemmy.world
on 26 Feb 23:29
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Well, while probably not universally true, but I’m guessing that if you can afford to buy a steam deck, you can probably afford to buy games
I am currently editing the guide, will finish tomorrow. but you might have luck following it already. Check out
lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/38810596
shortrounddev@lemmy.world
on 26 Feb 14:29
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I almost always plug mine into my dock and run it with a controller lol, rarely use it as an actual handheld
garretble@lemmy.world
on 26 Feb 16:06
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Now that it has been three years, while I’d like to have one, I feel like I’ll just wait until whatever the next version is - even if that means waiting another year or so.
I don’t need one, particularly, and I don’t want to be caught at the tail end of this hardware.
I was on the fence of asking for one for my birthday late last year for exactly this reason.
What tipped me over was that I took a look at my Steam library and realized I literally have hundreds of indie and AA games that I’ve never played or have less than 4 hours in that I always meant to go back to.
And that was it, I decided the Steam Deck was going to be my indie gaming experince platform. It has been amazing at doing this, and I’ve been chewing through my indie game library like crazy, and have picked up so many more that I’m loving gaming again! I can see myself keeping the current steam deck around and will be used regularly for at least the next 5 years.
If you’re looking for a portable machine that’ll tackle most modern & higher end games, either look at the alternative SteamOS portables or wait for the next Steam Deck (the touch screen, D-Pad, Sticks, and dual touch pad make it the best choice for best I out options for game compatibility).
However, if you want a great machine for indies, AA, older AAA titles, and console EMU, the current hardware is amazing and worth the price
SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world
on 26 Feb 21:12
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Steam deck is awesome.
With the Desktop mode, a monitor, mouse, and keyboard it’s also just a computer.
Its been awesome playing games on it then flipping on my VPN and downloading movies and stuff that I can then watch on it.
The future is now
_cryptagion@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 27 Feb 13:59
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There’s a reason for that, and it’s more than the usual Valve fanboyism. The Deck is objectively a better user experience than the alternatives, Steam Input is a masterpiece, Linux runs games better than Windows now (thanks, Gabe), and the community around it is friendly and super helpful to everyone.
Even a device with better specs will have trouble surpassing the Deck if they can’t cover these areas as well.
threaded - newest
If you’re just looking for sales numbers, which we haven’t had much of for a long time, the long and short of it is:
4M Steam Decks since launch, 2M of all of its competitors combined; expected that all handheld PCs sharing this AMD tech will sell about 2M more this year.
To put it in perspective there are 150 million Switches and 75 million PS5s out there. And 15 million Wii Us, if anybody is counting. This puts PC handhelds some ways ahead of the N-Gage and well behind the Game Gear.
I'm less concerned about who's ahead in the handheld PC market and more interested on whether it'll ever become a mass market space. I think a lot depends on prices for integrated GPUs not skyrocketing like their desktop counterparts and their performance stepping up a notch or two. We'll see.
It’s worth keeping in mind what’s different here though. If the Steam Deck came out in the early 90s, it wouldn’t be analogous to the Game Gear; it would be competing with the Nomad. It plays the same games as a PC but handheld, so it’s capturing specifically the market that wants to extend that library to be handheld as well. Every Switch sold is handheld, but outside of the Switch Lite, we don’t know who values that system for its handheld capabilities (I basically never used my Switch handheld back when I actually used it). There was also literally no competition for it when it launched, so it will be interesting to see how many opt for a handheld PC instead when the handheld part is what they’re looking for.
Additionally, there’s this rising market segment of mini PCs that are powered by the same tech that’s in these handhelds. I’ve got one that I like to bring around for local multiplayer games, and if you only ever intend to use a computer at a desk for basic documents and web browsing, they can undercut low-end laptop prices for the same level of power and run the same operating system. Based on recent rumors, this tech could wind up in a new crop of Steam Machine-esque consoles very soon but with the library problem more or less solved compared to ten years ago.
Yeeeah, I don't know that "it'd slot in next to the Nomad" is a ringing endorsement of mainstream appeal.
You, by the way, are not in the majority in your usage pattern for the Switch. Every bit of info available suggests that handheld vs docked use of the Switch is pretty much evenly split. Which is surprising to me, because I see it as a handheld first and foremost.
I do agree that it'll be interesting to see how the Switch 2 fares in a market where it's not the only thing in its class, but if I had to place any bets, they have a humongous lead despite PC handhelds having been around for ages and the Deck having taken a very good stab at competitive pricing and performance a whole three years ago (what is even time, holy crap).
As for mini PCs... Man, I don't get mini PCs. I'm very much an early adopter of weird tech, I have more SBCs and handheld devices than I know what to do with, but... who wants a screenless laptop? Or an underpowered, overpriced desktop? I can see some use cases for it, I've had some NUCs and thin clients here and there, I just don't think the value proposition is there to use them even as a media device. But hey, it's a small but clearly competitive space, and if this gen APUs do indeed match a 4060 desktop level of performance when fed enough power maybe that starts to make sense next to a Xbox Series S or something as a gaming device. We'll see.
For the record, I do have a PC plugged into a TV for gaming, mostly made out of spares and hand-me-downs built into a smaller, less garish case. I haven't seen a mini PC that made me question that choice yet. I'm open to having my mind changed, it just hasn't happened yet.
PC gaming has mainstream appeal, measurably. There are lots of reasons to play games on PC, and this is an additional one, particularly compared to PlayStation and Xbox, moreso than Switch.
I haven’t seen any reporting on that in a long time, since before this PC form factor existed, but I’d happy to peruse a link. I see some people playing Switch on the subway from time to time, but also anecdotally, most of my friends, all adults, play them docked just about exclusively. I’ve definitely seen children playing Switch Lites at the laundromat as a tool that parents use to keep them busy.
My use case is I have a very easily packed and unpacked local multiplayer machine, for emulators and fighting games especially. The Steam Deck is a bit of a pain to set up for this use case, and it can’t run Street Fighter 6 very well or at the resolutions I’d want it to, but the mini PC does all of that very well. That use case, and some interested fighting game tournament organizers I’ve been talking to, are admittedly very niche, but I think the alternative for a laptop has real legs. My friend just got one for her dad (in his late 60s) for a little north of $150. It runs Windows. It allows him to browse the web and run his office applications, plus whatever else he needs to run on x64. Most older folks I see using laptops only ever use them in a single place like a desk anyway, and they’d rather output them to a larger monitor. This is where I think this form factor will sing in the coming years, plus the real possibility of whatever living room PC game machine that Valve can put together for decent value. The other advantage is that not only can they be cheap up front and take up less space, they also use less electricity and produce less waste heat.
PC gaming absolutely has mainstream appeal, and it's growing. Just not specifically because of the handheld market. By the numbers, anyway. I find people tend to hedge on this. Either the Steam Deck is a consolized solution to PC gaming that makes the Switch obsolete or a bit of an experiment that doesn't need to stack up to mainstream devices.
Yes, PCs (desktop PCs, laptops and handhelds together) are comparable to 4K home consoles these days and lead in some segments. But of those categories the handhelds are the smallest contributor while they are the largest portion of the console market. I love PC handhelds and I'd like to see those proportions shift, but it's interesting that Valve has put a lot of resources behind having a competitive device at a very low price point and we haven't seen more of a change.
On the docked vs handheld thing, Nintendo disclosed that info a few times. This is the first result I found just searching for it. It's recent enough that there were already a hundred million of the things in the wild, so I don't expect it'll have changed much.
As for the mini PC thing... yeah, sure. I mean, I'm not sayng they don't do the thing, I'm saying whenever I sit to look at the optimal solution for a problem the mini PCs never seem to come out on top. A PC for an older person taht doesn't need a ton of computing power? I went with an Android tablet with a detachable keyboard last time, they are delighted at having a laptop-style thing and a tablet to watch media that works like their phone. A low power device to run some specific application? I can probably find some cheap SBC somewhere I can get running passively with a heatsink and will do the job. A portable gaming solution? I have laptops with dedicated GPUs around that are older but much faster than most mini PCs. Also, they have a screen, so there's that. A set-top box? I can put something together for cheaper in the same performance range.
There are valid use cases. Sure, if you need a dozen of these things to embed in desktops, or something you can mount behind a screen, or... something to run a FGC tourney for cheap, apparently, there are reasons to use them. I just haven't found they provided a better alternative than other devices for most of the uses I personally have.
I’d wager that the reason the PC market has grown is due to a million different reasons that, on their own, are quite small. Probably not many people would ditch their PlayStation just for mods. Or just for more freedom on controller choices. Or just for better performance. Or just for free online play. Etc.
If I might nitpick your link on the handheld usage, which by the way is dated approximately right when this handheld PC market was born, the thing that Nintendo was seemingly seeking to justify with that data is, “Do people switch with the Switch?”, but it would not answer the question, “How many people would buy the handheld-capable version if they already had a more powerful stationary machine that plays the same games?”
I'm confused on what your hypothesis is here. You think PC handhelds are massively shifting the modes of usage of the Switch towards being primarily docked? I'm not gonna dig for it, but my understanding was that the Switch usage was slowly drifting towards more handheld over time. Even if that wasn't the case, the numbers just don't match. Even if 10 million people had shifted from using the Switch as a handheld to a PC handheld, why would that impact the remaining 130 million users? PC handhelds are a rounding error in the space the Switch operates in.
If I had to guess the drift towards PC probably has a lot to do with software. PC ports weren't a given until recently and they arguably still aren't reliably great. With console exclusives becoming fewer and further between and both first parties now willing to ship PC ports there just is less of an incentive to be stuck to a specific piece of hardware. PCs have always been backwards and forwards compatible, but with all sorts of devices able to run the same software across many device types and hardware generations that is becoming a big selling point.
Which on the Switch is a lot weaker, mostly because Nintendo is better at making a ton of first party games than Sony and Microsoft and because they have a younger userbase that is less likely to have three other gaming-worthy devices at their fingertips at all times.
Answering this post is difficult without writing an entire book, but I think the existence of this form factor, the iteration on it, and the cycles of hardware going out of date and being replaced will, in the long term, have more and more of a tangible effect on all consoles, and Nintendo will feel that last out of the three. Rumor has it Xbox has given up on being a console and will actually just be a PC going forward.
This is basically the gist of my point, and long-term, I think it will apply to handhelds as well. As an example, on the current Switch, you can get compromised versions of the Witcher 3 and Doom Eternal, or you could just get the better version of the game on PC; it will run perfectly at home, and you can run it at acceptable settings when handheld. Feel free to extrapolate that a few years into the future when there’s a new handheld PC out and the consumer is comparing the latest new game on PC against a Switch 2.
This has been true of Nintendo hardware for a long time, though. I wouldn't discount their ability to sustain it through a steady feed of exclusives.
Whether they can do better at managing rising costs and complexity than others is anybody's guess. And we'll see what happens on PC with compatibility. With a handful of games that don't run on SteamOS dominating the PC market there is a quiet conflict there and it's not clear how it will resolve itself.
I think it’s very interesting to note that mainstream consoles like the Switch or PS5 have massive ad campaigns behind them, expensive television spots, and a constant churn of new exclusives that they’re using to keep themselves in the conversation. The Steam Deck certainly had an ad campaign, but it feels impressive to me that they managed to make those numbers happen mostly just through throwing up an announcement on the Steam front page and then having it review well once it found its way into critics’ hands.
I look at the Steam Deck less as an end product and more of a means.
The Steam Deck is absolutely getting slaughtered by the Switch in terms of sales, but it gives Valve an alternative to the Windows ecosystem that is becoming more hostile as Microsoft tries to muscle in on gaming. I also think that Valve could have designed a Steam Deck variant to compete with the Switch 2, but hasn’t for various reasons
Already, Valve has the technology to create a console to compete with a PS5 and Xbox Series X, but doesn’t seem to want to.
I can’t imagine it would be that much harder to make a Chromebook equivalent, giving it access to the PC market without Windows.
Since Valve is using Linux, developing the tech stack is cheap. Also, Valve seems to be selling hardware for a profit, so it may be more comfortable with slimmer margins.
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I'm comparing unit sales. The Deck just happens to slot in between older handhelds in terms of unit sales. It also sold about as much as the Saturn and a little more than the Dreamcast, as far as I can tell. I may be ahead of both and on par with the Wii U now, but Steam isn't super transparent with giving sales numbers.
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No, I get it, no animosity here. I'm just curious about why you think the bar is fundamentally different for the Deck than for consoles in general.
Hell, adjusted for inflation the Game Gear retailed for the equivalent of 300 bucks at launch, which is not far off from the lowest price for the Deck at 399. Plus 90s devices sold a lot less than modern devices. Why would meeting the Game Gear not be a reasonable target for the Deck?
It's the most successful individual PC handheld, but it's also not made it into the same range as most consoles so it hasn't turned this product category into a mainstream device... yet.
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Hah. You're overestimating the potential of 90s gaming devices. No game console, handheld or not, had sold a hundred million units. Hell, the Game Boy didn't crack into the hundreds until the Game Boy Color came around, and it was certainly the first.
Anyway, mild exaggeration aside, I get what you're aiming for, but I guess my question is why people read that positioning on Valve devices in the first place. There's no obvious indication that Valve is any less ambitious than any other first party, or any reason why they would be. They went to AMD and comissioned a custom APU at scale, just like Nintendo, Sony or Microsoft are doing. The only differentiating factor is they built the thing on top of a mostly usable pre-existing OS (which I suppose Microsoft also does, but hey). If anything their entire call to fame was to "consolize" Linux for SteamOS, which they'd been trying to do for a while anyway.
I agree that their goal is to set up an ecosystem that works for them, but I find it surprising that people assume they're disinterested in hardware sales. If I had to guess I'd say it's because they refuse to market too hard outside their own ecosystem, so their branding feels different than the more in-your-face releases of Sony, MS or Nintendo products and people assume that's because they're intrinsically or intentionally smaller, which I don't think is true. I do think that image is projected on purpose, though.
Tap for spoiler
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Nintendo has done backwards compatibility before, pretty extensively. The Switch 2 isn't a departure. They put a GBA cartridge slot in the first few Nintendo DSs (they lost it in the DSi), and the 3DS was backwards compatible with the DS. They also did GC to Wii and Wii to Wii U (but not GC to WiiU). They even put physical plugs for GC controllers and memory cards on the Wii.
And they've done weirder stuff, like the ability to use a GBA as a controller on the GameCube and some cross-save bonuses between games in some platforms.
The Game Gear is a weird example for that, specifically, since it was basically a repackaged Master System, so there was a lot of game crossover. Sega also had a widely advertised adapter that allowed the Mega Drive to play Master System games.
Anyway, nerdy retro gaming stuff aside, there is definitely a gradient across Valve, that is mostly driving a software platform across a ton of third party hardware, the 4K twins, which are relatively focused on service providing and Nintendo, which is somewhat more focused on a single platform, at least so far. It's very much not black and white and very much not a new thing, though.
And in any case, the smooth gradient does mean that ultimately it should be fair to at least compare Deck sales to console sales.
Maybe handheld gaming PCs aren’t something that has mass market appeal? It feels like theres so many variables that depend on it. Exclusives? Price? Ease of use? Brand recognition? Advertising? Im glad Valve is happy with deck’s sales numbers becuase it means we will probably keep seeing more support for it and newer models down the line. It still feels like if Microsoft launched a handheld xbox, it would probably still be a console first experience without traditional PC functionality and probably sell more while directly competing with switch 2. Definitely will be interesting to see how handheld PC pan out in the next 5 years, right now it feels like a slowly emerging market.
Maybe? That'd be a shame, I do like PC handhelds.
As you say, it doesn't seem that manufacturers are too unhappy with their sales here, but I'd also like to see scale grow to the point where we can start seeing devices launch cheaper, rather than more expensive. Besides the presumably heavily subsidized (or at least priced for scale) Deck the more interesting alternatives are luxury items. It'd be nice to see them find some room for more competitive pricing, and that probably requires adding a zero to the sales numbers.
Well, with low-end gpus (like the integrated APU in the Steam Deck) there is still competition. The main reason high-end gpus are so expensive is that there are no alternatives to Nvidia, so they can ask for any price they want
Hm. That is an interesting read, I don't know if I see it. For fast iGPUs it's been all AMD for a while. Nvidia has been threatening to build a faster one, but it seems they may be targeting integrated, fully branded devices for AI instead of gaming or general use.
Intel has started competing there, but so far it's not been a popular pick with handheld manufacturers.
My understanding is this generation there are more powerful parts but they're expensive to implement and they many not be as good at low wattages, but I guess we'll have to wait a while to know for sure. Either way I don't see a reason why there would be downward pressure on prices. Less upwards pressure than Nvidia just throwing a number at the 5080 and 5090 presumably selected from a bingo card, for sure, but still not necessarily down in price to performance.
The legion go s with steam OS should replace it 10000% but I don’t know if it will. There will never be a steam deck 2 and the steam deck is already outdated and slow.
touchpads
Legion go will have one for mouse. Not great for games I’d imagine. But I’d also imagine 99% of people use the joysticks on a steam deck when playing a game.
But, software usually dies before hardware does.
Man, I strongly dislike the touchpads on all of Valve's controllers. They just hurt my wrists a bunch.
I prefer the optical nub on the GPD Win, which I noticed is making a reappearance in the Legion Go S, actually, so that's a step up for me. Not that I'm in the market for a handheld this gen, I'm mostly set.
Of course the weird mouse mode thing of the big boy Legion Go is a much better brute force solution than either, if you need to use one for any stretch of time beyond clicking the one thing. It's going to be very weird have that turn out to be the model for the Switch 2's mouse gimmick if and when that gets confirmed.
IMO Valve has the highest quality touchpads that I have ever interacted with on any product. They also pioneered haptic feedback, which makes their touchpads more usable than any other implementation that currently exists.
As a touchpad, maybe. But they're not being used as a touchpad, they're being used as this weird physical input substitute thing that is meant to work with your thumb. Two thumbs, actually. Sliding my thumb that way while holding the thing I'm using causes excruciating pain almost immediately, but even in the brief period until it does it's less functional than a large touchpad, let alone a mouse or a stick.
I know some people swear by them, I just don't think they're worth the space they take up as a pointer device and I don't think they're particularly useful as anything else.
But hey, that's the point of PCs, right? People who agree with me can get the Legion Go S with the actually good Thinkpad-style optical nub and people who like playing games by scratching a plastic square for some reason can stick to the Deck.
Super bizarre and atypical. Probably a conversation you should have with your doctor.
I, along with pretty much anyone else that has used it, find they are surprisingly usable with thumbs, as they were designed to be. The left touchpad is especially useful as virtual menu and allows the device to be used effectively in many more games than is possible with other devices that are lacking these hardware features. Informational video and demo of touchpad virtual menu: www.youtube.com/watch?v=vorhbmYIFpg
It is atypical, and certainly a medical issue, but I'm not alone there by any means. People who like these do tend to be loud and proud about it, so they stand out more, but it's worth pointing out that any time Valve has tried to have them as a primary input they had to either reintroduce sticks alongside them or swap them out for sticks altogether. Accessibility wise I know people who share my issues and people who say they interact better with their own mobility problems. That's always the case with ergonomics and accessibility issues. On the plus side, that has taken me into a lively and very expensive habit of controller collecting, so... yay for me.
FWIW, I'm aware of the functionality, which works just as well with a modifier button and a stick. Those things and a lot of the features attached to them are, and have always been, a solution looking for a problem. There are very few games where the developer hasn't provided a viable control mapping that the Steam layers turn into a comfortable gaming experience. In most cases if it's not intended to be used with a controller I'd much rather go sit somewhere with a mouse and keyboard.
Such as…? Or are you just referring to the original Steam Controller teaser concept, compared to the final product that has a left stick in addition to the 2 touchpads (which is objectively a better design, and I appreciate that the left stick was included).
That’s fine to only use the Steam Deck for games that were designed controller-first, but the point of the device and its major success has been to make any game, including non-controller games, playable in handheld form factor, and Valve’s touchpads have been the primary factor in that success.
This is the reason I see other devices that lack touchpads and can instantly dismiss them, as they aren’t really selling a product that is in the same category as the Steam Deck and therefore do not really compete with the Steam Deck. They are just selling a handheld console (despite the fact that they run Windows, made clear by how awkward and strange the interaction with the OS is), which is something that is not new and have existed since the late 80s. The Steam Deck is not a handheld console, it is a handheld PC. It is true that there are other examples of handheld PC devices, which are true competitors to Steam Deck, like GDP Win, but these attempts have not been nearly as successful.
The OG Steam controller was a bust in general, but yeah, they ended up having to add a stick there. And the original Vive controllers were touchpad-only, which was a bad choice that was reverted somewhere in the process of Valve exiting the picture and every other VR controller standardizing around sticks instead. And notably the Steam Deck launched with dual sticks in a standard configuration despite insisting on keeping the dual trackpads, but very few competitors have followed suit. One touchpad, sure, because these all need a remedial solution for a pointing device, but two is rare (I can think of one other example).
So yeah, Valve has been dragged kicking and screaming back to the standard layout, much as they seem to not want to entirely let go of the idea for some reason. There aren't many examples because they don't make a ton of hardware, but there is nothing in the history of those haptic trackpads to suggest that they're a runaway hit with users that will become the go-to for input devices. There's a lot more evidence for the opposite.
I fundamentally disagree that the touchpads had anything to do with the Deck's success. Reading reviews, looking at usage lists and just looking at how the thing is used, the killer feature is and has always been the ridiculously low price for what it packs and the user-friendly UI. The entire point of SteamOS is making the device manageable with the sticks alone and not needing a pointer device as much as the Windows alternatives. You're projecting your tastes onto it pretty heavily there.
I have to say, there is so much self-contradiction in people that get activist about this segment. And I say that as someone heavily invested in it. I upgraded from the OG Deck to the OLED and I own other handhelds. But man, people need to decide whether the reason the Deck is great is that it IS a console that works like a console and doesn't need to mess around with annoying Windows quirks... or a full-fledged PC that is not really competing with consoles.
Look, the Deck is a very, very, very cheap handheld PC that is less performant and not as sleek as some of the more boutique alternatives, but it's the best value in that space. And it's less of a hassle to use out of the box than the Windows alternatives (although the difference is smaller than most people claim, honestly). It's not as smooth as a console, it's clunky and it's less compatible than inititally promised. And not as successful as you'd think from the attention it gets. But it's good. Not best in class in most areas, but definitely best in value by a large margin.
Lol on planet earth? It sold over 1 million units in a couple months, and is so beloved and sought after that they go for over $150 in box on secondhand markets still today… Is it my favorite controller for playing games that are designed for controller? No, of course not, but that’s not what it is for… For playing non-controller games from the couch while docked to the TV, though? Absolutely indispensable, there is nothing else that exists that comes close to the success of the Steam Controller.
I don’t think anyone has ever expected or suggested that analog stick would not be included or do not belong on the Steam Deck, including Valve. The idea that Valve is against analog stick or attempted to not include them in the first place is ludicrous and the points you make about this are completely moot lol. The point of the device is to allow play of all games, and the sticks obviously play a role in that for games that were designed to be played with them. There’s never been any dragging or kicking or screaming.
Obviously there are many factors that contribute to the success of the Steam Deck: price, hardware performance, input features, Steam OS usability, compatibility with the vast majority of Steam libraries, etc. My point is that the touchpads are a discriminator between a handheld PC and a handheld console, a subtle but real difference. Comparing the Steam Deck to handheld consoles, it is not even close to the same sales of these devices like Nintendo Switch. But it doesn’t matter, it is still hailed as a major success, because it isn’t a handheld console.
One million units in the accessory market may as well be zero. The game controller market is woth billions each year just in the US. Specific per-company market share is hard to come by, but I'll put it this way: none of the data I've seen even includes Valve as a player in the space.
I do have a Steam Controller and it will continue to sit in a box next to the Steam Link indefinitely, because see above about having a collecting issue with controllers. My solution for playing non-controller games on the TV ended up being a lapboard with an embedded keyboard an a mouse area from Roccat, which they've discontinued because they're dumb.
The points I make about the success of the pads are entirely reasonable, seeing how Valve DID in fact market them as stick and button replacements on the original and included them instead of having sticks on the Vive controllers. They tried to sell them as a replacement, they did not work for that.
The Steam Controller is in this bizarre space where it bombed so hard it is not remembered at all by most and yet it has been subject to this revisionist history where instead of being briefly available and getting discontinued because nobody really wanted them or was using them it was a massive success that is not being made anyway because... I don't know, because they're special and unique and Valve doesn't want to devalue them? I have no idea how this is supposed to have gone down.
I mean, it's fine, it's not even close to the weirdest piece of tech I own. Not even the weirdest controller I own. But it was never a killer app, it was never particularly successful and the dumb touchpads were absolutely marketed as being superior to physical controls and were extremely not that. I was there for the fifteen minutes it took everybody to decide this, I remember.
Memory and thumbs, two conversations that you need to have with a doctor lol. You can literally just look at Steam Controller reviews and reception, these webpages all still exist on the internet… Basically the only thing that it is dinged on in reviews is the plastic build quality (totally valid, the plastic does feel cheap), lack of compatibility with Mac, and need for input mapping. The worst that I have ever seen said about the touchpads on it is “it takes getting used to” for games that are controller-first, while for non-controller games they are completely intuitive and just work.
Neither I, nor Valve, have ever pushed the touchpads as a stick replacement, and I will just keep reiterating my point that they are indispensable for use with non-controller games and without them, the product is lacking to the point of being unusable for these types of games. Continuing to try to make points about stick replacement is a deflection and a strawman, honestly.
We’re talking about Valve, this is basically their MO. Same could be said about their games… Half-Life, Portal, Left 4 Dead, Team Fortress: “massive success that is not being made anyway because… I don’t know, because they’re special and unique” yup. The only thing that is weird about Steam Controller stopping production is they didn’t stop after 2.
Oh, my Gabe.
Okay, here. PC Gamer review:
Hilariously the guy got much more negative (honest?) about it over time.
IGN, on the trackpad on its review:
Windows Central:
Valve being reported as saying trackpads are the superior option at The Escapist
while also admitting they couldn't get people to use them:
I was there. I bought one. Why do you make me do homework?
you literally just cherry-picked the same “stick replacement” talking point that I’ve already identified as a strawman and irrelevant to this discussion 🤦 Dude, no one is saying that the touchpads are a stick replacement or that the Steam Controller is better for playing controller-first console games. That’s literally why there are 2 analog sticks on the Steam Deck… and why I use them for controller-first games… and why Steam Controller isn’t my favorite or even what I would recommend for controller-first games… If someone at Valve said that once, then they’re wrong. The analog sticks being better for controller games doesn’t change the fact that not having touchpads entirely limits the usability of the device for non-controller games.
If all you play are console games and first-person shooters, 1) that’s totally fine, 2) yeah, you probably don’t get much if any use out of the touchpads. Those aren’t the only games that I play on Steam Deck or while docked to TV, though, and the touchpads on the Steam Deck and Steam Controller allow me to to play these other types of games that would not be possible to play effectively with a typical controller. If the Steam Deck only came with touchpads and no sticks, then we would be limited in the other direction. It has both, but other devices marketed as Steam Deck challengers do not have both.
Obviously… lol, its not like the intention was ever to be using the Steam Controller at a desk while gaming on a desktop instead of using the mouse… but I’m not going to use a traditional mouse when sitting on my couch. Still irrelevant
Valve said it. It's not a straw man. I'm not cherry picking. Those are direct quotes from contemporary reviewers going off Valve's marketing and review guides. The first that I could find, too, there's only so much homework I'm willing to do.
The damn thing went to market with that as a USP. They told everybody the pads were superior before they had to backtrack on it and add a single stick because they couldn't get playtesters to go along with it.
If you think you know better than Valve and they mismarketed the thing... well, great. Good for you. But they still mismarketed the thing, people still reviewed it as a stick replacement and it still reviewed poorly on that front.
Now, I'd argue it was also poor at being a mouse replacement, which is also something mentioned in contemporary reviews. It may technically enable you to play a strategy game, but you're not going to excel at Dota 2 on a Steam Controller. There are multiple superior alternatives. Most obviously to just... you know, go to a desk and play with a mouse, but there are also multiple solutions to have a laptop mouse and keyboard combo. There was that Roccat solution and there are a number of variants on "here's a flat surface with a USB hub inside it" you can use for that, if you must.
So if it's not a great standard controller replacement and it's not a great mouse replacement, what is it for? It never solved the issue of playing mouse and keyboard games on the couch effectively, which by your own account was the entire idea (even though it wasn't). The solution to that ended up being developers adding mouse and keyboard options instead. And maybe gyro aiming.
In any case, we at least got Steam Input out of it, which never did much to fix the shortcomings of the Steam Controller, but is a solid tool to enhance controller support for other devices and it picks up the slack from Sony refusing to properly support their controllers on PC.
Arguing against a point that actually isn’t the argument the other person is making is the definition of strawman. I am not arguing that the touchpads are good for replacing sticks. Making the point that touchpads are bad at replacing sticks over and over again is a textbook example of a strawman. I agree with you on it, it is irrelevant, it doesn’t score you any points against what I am actually saying.
Correct, yes, we all agree here.
Playing non-controller games from the couch or in a handheld form factor. Lmfao
This is where we disagree and what you have not actually made any points on that support your opinion that touchpads do not solve this effectively, besides it hurts your thumbs, which is a you thing, really
No, friend, the argument you're making is that Valve didn't sell it based on its ability to replace sticks or mice, which is what is incorrect.
Also, there are no points. This is a conversation, not basketball.
Explain to me how we can simultaneoulsy agree that it's not a great mouse replacement and you can still claim that it's a good solution to play non-controller games.
What non-controller games are these that don't rely on a mouse? Have we been arguing about your Donkey Konga or Typing of the Dead controller all along?
What??? No, reading comprehension (probably a good idea to understand the argument the other person is making before engaging with them). As I’ve stated over and over, the Steam Controller is good for playing non-controller games on the couch. Here, literally the first marketing paragraph from the literal Steam website…
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/5159763b-1044-45e5-9529-7bf26f37f438.png">
Wow, gee… the exact point I’ve made over and over…
This means that I’m not going to sit down at my desk to play games on my desktop and choose to pick up a Steam Controller instead of just using the mouse that is right there. That does not mean that the touchpads aren’t still great for using with mouse-based games, which they are, it “solves the issue of playing mouse and keyboard games on the couch effectively”, but yeah it isn’t better than a mouse. The Steam Controller has not replaced using a mouse.
I mean, it's easier homework if I only have to scroll up. You said what you said. Valve said what they said.
The weird part is we've ended up in the same place as the original Steam Controller. From being the "everything controller" that will support all types of games on a TV to being... well, not the right controller for games with controller support and clearly not as good as a mouse and keyboard for everything else, but hey, you could play stuff this way if you really wanted to.
Which is obviously not a great value proposition. "Hey, here's a slightly worse way to play a few of your games on a TV instead of at your desk" was never going to revolutionize gaming.
Oh, and by the way, I let this pass earlier because we weren't focusing on it, but for the Steam Deck specifically, the idea that the touchpads are "irreplaceable" and completely change the game when compared to other devices is also kind of confusing because...
... well, there's a touchscreen right there.
Not all games play well with touch inputs, but when you pile that on top of everything else the slice of games where the touchpads are an irreplaceable, indispensable requirement is vanishingly small.
I don't have a problem with people liking weird or inconvenient controls, mind you. It's just that I really would have prefered a version of the Deck that didn't need the Dumbo ears for the sake of keeping that weird vestigial remnant of the Steam Machines era.
What point are you making by quoting this…? Like… I stand by the quote. Yup, its not a stick replacement. Yup, the sticks have always belonged on the Steam Deck and it was never intended to be touchpad-only.
Compared to… what is the better way, exactly? It’s actually: “Hey, here’s a way to play a few (‘few’ 🙄 sure) of your games on a TV instead of at your desk that you couldn’t have done before with a controller”. Or is your answer “Just play those games on a desktop with a mouse! Stop having fun!” lmfao
Do you have three hands…? How are you holding the controller while operating the triggers and buttons and using the touchscreen at the same time? Using your nose to touch the screen? I think maybe you “let that one pass” for a reason 😉 (it doesn’t make any sense and isn’t relevant to the discussion). Are you genuinely proposing that “touchpads are bad and hard to use” but “the touch screen is a viable way to play mouse-based games”??
Lmao boy, you are not going to like the Steam Deck 2 when it comes out. Guarantee that touchpads will continue to be first class citizens
Alright, so more homework:
Valve DID say they were a stick replacement. Maybe we can keep going until we catch up with ourselves.
I'm confused about why playing on your desk is "not fun", but I assume that was a joke? Besides that I've also mentioned multiple ways to use a mouse and keyboard on a TV, which I do routinely and it's just fine with next to no compromises. Plus the touchscreen on a Deck, motion controls and other stuff.
For the record, the touchscreen doesn't need a third hand at all. Plenty of games are perfectly playable touch-only and for anything with partial touch support it's barely an inconvenience to tap something on the screen and go back to the controllers. Maybe at this point you should tell me what mystery game absolutely requires a dual touchpad setup but doesn't require the responsiveness of precision of a mouse, thus making it indispensible to have your handheld device be the width of a tabloid or your controller have no right stick.
Because, honestly, I'm drawing a blank here. The proportion of games that don't support controllers, can't be navigated with a single touchpad and a touchscreen but would not require a full mouse setup is very small, in my book. And, frankly, for whatever those are the real answer is to... you know, play something else? Not every game needs to be played on every device. I wouldn't play some games on a Deck not because they lack controller features but simply because they're not the best fit for the device and I have thousands of other games I could play instead that feel at home on a handheld.
Hmm, gee, let me think… perhaps any game where you need to be able to point the mouse without clicking or while clicking several times, or any game where you need the ability to left click or right click? Lmfao a tiny miniscule proportion of games, right???
Or maybe even a game where you need to press A to jump or X to interact while also controlling the mouse? I’m sure there’s only one or two games ever made like that… 🤦
Lmaoo yep, that’s what I thought.
You didn't mention any games. What games are those.
Do I point the mouse without clicking in Monster Train or Slay the Spire? Yes. But also, those games have touch and controller support, so I can do the same in other ways. What game would I play on a handheld that requires that but doesn't have any other way to do the same? That's not rhetorical, I'm drawing a blank here.
Where do you need to jump or press buttons on a controller while controlling the mouse? What is that? What game has controller support but also requires a pointer? I mean, Abuse, but that was in 1996, so maybe not that? Most games that use mouse aiming when playing on a keyboard map that to the right stick, off the top of my head.
Surely there's a list of games you played this way with a Steam Controller or on Deck touchpads that wouldn't play well elsewhere. They must have names. Right?
Umm… literally any RTS or management game… left click… right click… dragging entities around… multiselecting entities by dragging a box on screen… Good luck with the right stick for that, I’m sure its WAY easier to use it for these tasks than just using a touchpad to point the mouse, right? 🙄 Lmao.
Umm… literally any platformer or side scroller or top down game that has aim controls…
You wanted the name of a game, sure: Rimworld.
RTSs are unplayable on touchpads. I thought we agreed that touchpads aren't a good mouse replacement for anything requiring precision. Who is out there doing micro on Starcraft 2 on a Steam Controller?
And no, absolutely not true that side scrollers with aim controls need a touchpad. Bloodstained? Maps it to the right stick. Prince of Persia? Right stick. The entire Trine series? Right stick.
I hate when platformers require analogue inputs in the first place, because come on, you want to use a d-pad. But even then I can't think of a single example (since Abuse) that requires you to move and do analogue aim but won't support an analogue stick for that. The common name of top down games with free aim these days is "twin stick shooters", even. Nex Machina? Right stick. Minishoot? Right stick. Oooh, Knight Witch. Underrated. Right stick.
Rimworld, which I haven't played much, IS definitely a mouse and keyboard game. Same issue as with RTSs, though. I would absolutely not try to play that with a controller. Or a touchpad of any kind. Hell, the screen size would be a dealbreaker there.
We're looking for a bit of a unicorn here. It needs to be so coarse and slow that you can comfortably use a dual touchpad setup, but too cumbersome for a single touchpad or a touchscreen. Or somehow not supporting controllers but only for right stick aiming. Which Steam Input can simulate with a stick anyway.
Look, I'm not saying you can't prefer to play that way. You're in a very slim minority but you can absolutely be that guy.
I am saying that your choice is not anywhere near the only choice or the best choice. And for the places where playing with a mouse cursor is a must there is simply no good choice on a controller, with or without touchpads.
I mean that’s basically like saying “Who is playing Startcraft 2 on a laptop???” lmao the Steam Deck and Steam Controller touchpads are literally more precise and usable than most laptop touchpads due to their quality and advanced haptics, and these games are 100% playable on Deck and TV because of them…
And further, in the same messages you accept “using a single touchpad”, so like… you agree with me… great. And to satisfy your “dual touchpad” requirement, like I said waaaaaay back up at the top, the left touchpad is great for virtual menus. Pretty indispensable again in any RTS game, or mmoRPG, or pretty much any other games designed for keyboard with complex keybinds that a controller cannot support. An analog stick can work with simple virtual menus, but only doesn’t totally suck when it is a radial menu. The virtual menu use is pretty much the only reason I use the left touchpad, and yet its so useful for making these types of games playable that it justifies its place on the Steam Deck.
Your argument, once again, amounts to: “Stop having fun!!”
I have no idea where you saw me saying anything about "using a single touchpad" where I was agreeing with you. I said I wouldn't play those games on any touchpad, single or dual, haptic or not.
You also underestimate how powerful Steam Input is, weirdly. Chords, button combos and controller layers can be combined into surprisingly complex setups. Probably too complex, unless you like playing Steam Input more than you like playing your game, but definitely very capable of doing as much as the left pad. Which, by the way, can be mapped to a radial menu and that's about it. Let's not get crazy with our much real state you have on that thing, especially if you're trying to do anything time-sensitive.
And no, the argument isn't "stop having fun", the argument is "don't force games that aren't fun on a controller to be on a controller". I can't imagine having fun with a fast mouse-driven game on the tiny touchpad on the Deck, or even in the larger one on the Steam Controller. Or on a huge Macbook touchpad or on ANY touchpad. They don't need to be coaxed to work poorly on a mediocre replacement when they work great on the native control setup they're designed for. A few cases overlap enough to make things work well enough, but then the lack of an overengineered dual touchpad setup is not the limiting factor because there are so many alternatives in modern devices, from motion controls to touchscreens and paddles.
The touchpads were always a solution looking for a problem, even when controllers were a lot simpler. Now they're a sub-par solution looking for a problem.
Out of curiosity, what RTSs do you play on the Deck or the Steam Controller? Because I've tried that (it was 2015, I had just gotten a Steam Controller and didn't know any better) and it's one of the least pleasant gaming experiences I can imagine. Did you really do that on purpose or is this a hypothetical?
Ah yes, complex and hard-to-remember controller mappings, so much easier than: put thumb on pad -> make selection. Great point lmao. No one is saying that you can’t rig up solutions for controller, just that they are difficult to use and less payable than just using the touchpad. This very thing is probably what is driving you away from playing these games on Deck back to your computer or keyboard-lapboard gadget thing.
I agree 100%
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/60c22b75-e819-4347-ab66-e944a8f8d549.png">
You underestimate how powerful Steam Input is, weirdly. Lmao
Manor Lords. Total War games are great too. Civilization is turn based but still the same input mechanics and is much better on the TV due to the touchpads. Management games have all the same input mechanics as RTS but different gameplay, the obvious example is Rimworld, but also things like Zoo Tycoon and Cities: Skylines. All of these are totally playable, and several I, personally, prefer on the couch
except they are fun and 100% playable, thanks to the touchpads. This is just what we actually disagree on, and MANY people agree with me here and use the Steam Deck to play these games, it isn’t some obscure or niche opinion, and its a major discriminator between the Steam Deck and other handhelds that are lacking in these input features
I mean, "MANY" in relation to, say, how many people would show up to someone's birthday party. Not "MANY" as in "the size of a videogame audience". We kinda know that for a fact. For reference, Steam does show the most played games on Deck. The first game with no official controller support shows up at 79. It's The Sims 4. For what it's worth, the two most used Steam Input configs do use the trackpads, but they just map the right one as a mouse and have the left one mapped to four directional functions. If your argument for the dual trackpads was simplicity, let me tell you, both of these configs are complete spaghetti, so I don't think that holds much water.
Rimworld is in there, suprisingly, in the 80s. Made me count all the way there, they should really put numbers on that list. Those seem to be the sole two mouse-driven entries. There are no RTS games, tycoon games or city builders that I can see.
In any case, you're right that we agree on whether playing strategy games on a touchpad is fun. It really is not.
By the way, you do realize your counter to the radial menu thing was a screenshot of a radial menu, right? The fact that it's using squares doesn't change how that works (except for how a grid layout actually fits fewer things than a radial menu, but that's neither here nor there).
I mean… for any game in the top 500 on Steam Deck… That sure would be one hell of a birthday party. You must have no concept of how big of a number 4 million is and how many people are playing these games on Deck…
Do you just not know what a radial menu is? The grid layout fits as many things as you configure it to, and the layout and arrangement of squares are fully configurable, which can be more useful and contextual than a radial menu… you should really watch that video I linked above, especially if you have time to spend counting games in the steam list lmao
Area scales faster than perimeter/circumference. You are literally, mathematically, incorrect. 36 buttons in a grid would still be readable and usable, with only 6 buttons per row, while 36 slices of a circle would be an unreadable squished mess with 9 items in each quadrant… That radial menu would likely need to be the size of the screen
And for the record, its not really a surprise or supportive of your argument that controller-first games are more popular, given that the Steam Deck also works great for controller-first games… like… duh?? That doesn’t prove the point you think it does
Granblue Relink is just about closing that top 100 and has about 650 players right now. That's not on Deck, that's across all of Steam.
That's a big birthday party, but not an all-timer.
I know what a radial menu is. The menu you sent is a nine square grid, which is a neutral spot surrounded by eight directional inputs. So a radial menu.
You can make other menus, but you just happened to send me a radial menu, specifically. Which I suspect was chosen there because, like I said, the small touchpad at best suits a radial menu or a directional menu.
And the point isn't that controller-first games are more popular, it's that mouse-first games are quite unpopular. Several big mouse-first games are in the overall most played list but not on the Deck list. Others appear lower. DOTA 2, for one, which is at the top of the overall and nowhere to be seen on the Deck top 100.
And yeah, when somebody argues something iffy in an online discussion I'm the kind of person to go and check. I don't mind being wrong that much, but I do want to know.
Homework.
So a completely different measure than what is used for ranking Great on Steam Deck games…? 🤦 Comparison to concurrent users just isn’t valid because Great on Steam Deck ranking aren’t measured by concurrent users…
Evidence needed. Also, did you purposely leave out the fact that Civ VII is literally #2 trending on the Deck right now because it proves you argument wrong or…?
That’s certainly convenient for you lol
It's a different measure because Valve does not disclose full install counts at all, let alone per hardware type, but it does provide concurrent users. I work with what I have. In any case, the top of the list is in the hundreds of thousands of concurrent users, so that does show that the top 100 on Deck does run the gamut until fairly low in usage. That's not a surprise, gaming is very winner-takes-all right now, particularly on PC. Steam user counts drop VERY quickly, so your argument that the top 500 is all huge is not accurate.
As for Civ VII, I was going off the last top 100 list, which is yearly and thus covering a period before the Civ VII launch, but Civ VI was actually there and I missed it. It shows up at 37. That's now 3% of the list that is mouse driven. I stand corrected. You're still wrong.
By the way, speaking of using different metrics, "trending" games aren't built on absolute numbers, so top played and trending don't line up at all. I'm assuming Civ VII will make the cut on Deck whenever it does get counted on absolute usage, though.
Makes invalid comparisons based on incompatible measures and draws incorrect conclusions
😂
None of the measure are incompatible, none of the conclusions are incorrect and you're still wrong.
Alrighty, then! If you say so
continues enjoying keyboard and mouse games on Steam Deck like most users, as Valve intended
Not most users, not even as Valve intended (on the Deck, at least).
They literally reserved the green "Verified" badge for games with full controller support and are the only ones eligible for the "Great on Deck" tab. Mouse and Keyboard games get the yellow "Playable" tag instead and a warning on boot.
See, that's the sad part about actually looking things up. It takes time, people get to nitpick it to death and then some guys will just... you know, say stuff.
Lmao “Playable” tag…
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/3480d762-8779-4a54-9cb4-110ed8eadcdc.gif">
It means official full controller support with the default config. There are few games that provide official controller support over Steam Input in the first place, even fewer that have any touchpad custom inputs by default and I'm not even sure if there are any that are Steam Verified. At a glance it's... what, just Rimworld again? Maybe some first party stuff left over from the Steam Machines fiasco? Sims is only Playable. Civ VII, which you called out earlier, I suspect incorrectly, has official all-stick support, what with having launched on consoles day and date. I haven't checked it because I haven't bought it yet, so if I'm wrong let me know. Civ VI doesn't have default controller support, but it's only Playable as well. In fact, if you have a list of verified games with touchpad default support I'd love to see it. I'm genuinely curious.
Look, you get to live in this very specific alternate reality where the only difference is people love dual touchpads as a main input system. That's fine, you're not hurting anybody. I get hung up on it because blatant misrepresentations on social media are fairly upsetting these days and because I'm still not over having had to use the dumb touchpads on the Vive for a couple of years back there.
But man, is it exhausting to watch it act as a proxy of some much more important crap in real time.
Wow this “alternate reality” seems pretty immersive:
www.reddit.com/r/…/how_good_are_the_touchpads/
steamcommunity.com/app/…/4353368616863474991/
tomshardware.com/…/steam-deck-valve-gaming-handhe…
Gee, what kind of “homework” did you even do? These were the top 3 search results for “steam deck trackpad review”, skipping over a Reddit post titled " Steam Deck Trackpads are Actually Good" which was the #2 search result
Hah. Man, you were fuming about that one for a while, huh?
I said at the very tippy top of this thread that
and later
It's no surprise that there are people swearing by them loudly and proudly. In fact, there are more people doing that than the opposite, because most people just... you know, ignore the whole thing altogether and haven't through about the Steam Controller in a decade.
The reason I was pulling quotes for you is that you denied the touchpad reception in the OG Controller was mixed and that Valve was presenting them as a stick substitute, which was demonstrably incorrect.
What was I “fuming” about…? Wdym?
“Everyone around me says they have positive experiences with the touchpads! They’re the ones that are wrong and I am right, because… the real people just ignore them and don’t post about it!!!”
Lmao. Yeah, I’m the one in an alternate reality here…
Not everybody around me. Nobody around me has ever mentioned a touchpad outside of threads about the touchpad. It's not a thing.
Everybody on Steam seems to be playing controller games on sticks, though. At least from the data Steam shares. Which matches reviews at the time (and later, when people had to pay attention to them on the Deck), the way games on Deck are put together by devs, the low sales of the Controller, the changes to the Vive controller, the lack of other hardware manufacturers doing dual touchpads and pretty much every other piece of info at scale we have beyond anecdote.
Man, online chatter sucks and does bad things to people. I think I'm done with this. Have fun with the dual pads Valve bestowed upon you. I don't need you to change your mind about their popularity, but man, there's going to be a Smithers moment for you at some point on something else and it sure would be good if you thought back to this.
Ta.
Why would there never be a Steam Deck 2?
Because some people love going off headlines, and not the actual articles, and then further twist information, to promote their narrative.
They never said there will never be one. They said there won’t be yearly incremental releases, because they want a substantial performance leap. And that is something I strongly admire. Makes the customers feel more secure in their choice, and lets Valve work on new stuff in peace
Citation for there never being a Steam Deck 2?
Because the interview at CES 2025 heavily implied it: youtu.be/UI-C-nZnDE8?t=525
And the article we’re commenting on mentioned it.
Well that’s cool. I heard just last year they weren’t going to and instead just make steam os more available. I’m not going to scrounge the internet for one video I saw several months ago sorry.
But what’s weird is when I look for steam deck 2 I get contradicting info like “steam deck several years away” and in the exact same particle “possibly late 2025”
it can still run everything, nothing outdated about it just yet
It can “run” everything you mean. I at games that either struggle to stay above 30 or look worse than switch graphics. So because a game can run doesn’t mean it’s viably playable to other people. I think the aim should be medium settings for new games at a steady 40fps for the next deck. But for now we have to rely on Linux optimization.
I’m sorry man but you are just plain wrong on this front. Try any games that are on Switch and compare them to whatever settings you need to get 30+ fps on a Steam Deck. A couple that come to mind would be The Witcher 3, and The Outer Worlds. The Switch versions of those games are absolutely abysmal to play, but on the Deck you can absolutely play both of them all the way through just fine. No one on the planet should expect a Steam Deck to hold up to a proper gaming rig or even a PS5 Pro, but to say it’s worse than a Switch is just ignorance or a flat out lie.
That is over generalising. I got Control recently (great game BTW) and it technically runs but isn’t really playable. That said I still love that little machine and it is an auto include in my bag whenever I’m away from my desktop for a longer time.
Tell me how it’s slow? If you turn on fps counters and your goal is to make that number go higher then you’re not using the deck to play games.
When you are competing with PCs and home consoles. <30fps is slow in my opinion. Or. Turn the graphics super low and get maybe ~40? The CPU/GPU is subpar The ram is okay for most games, but soon 32 will be the new required standard. The ssd makes apple seem generous…
I’m not bashing on it, I enjoy the steam deck, but if someone were to say they want to buy one right now I’d suggest waiting for legion go s or “the next steam deck” a few years from now. Unless valve cuts the cost of the steam deck by at least $100 each model, it’s not worth it anymore. There are dozens of better handhelds that you can install steam os on instead.
Note. I do also realize the steam deck community is hardcore shilly and everything I said will be read but not actually enter a brain and just passed off. Which is fine. Like I said I like the steam deck overall.
So you’re comparing a handheld system with full on desktops and consoles… No need to figure the “discussion” then.
Bro also fucking hates it when his Toyota corolla can’t keep up with a Ferrari. He gets the car enthusiasts market can be hardcore and shilly though.
pls to meke stem controller 2 🥲 😻
Personally, I think the Deck is too big for my tastes, but the beauty of the ecosystem is that anyone can make one while still having almost all the Deck features.
I’d love to have a Vita or even PSP sized Steam handheld with a great screen for smaller titles, but that comes with its own problems
At some point you’re going to struggle to put a capable x86 machine in a device that small.
Yeah the one big thing Valve probably won’t touch is ARM because unlike WINE, that’s a whole other beast in which the only valid solution is for game devs to compile for ARM, because translation layers like Rossetta and Box64 will always have 20-30% performance losses.
There’s been reports of Valve looking at ARM for Proton actually but x86 chips keep getting better and more efficient. Not to mention Mali and Adreno are laughably bad compared to Radeon and Arc.
Might run into trouble with UIs as well, but the heart wants what the heart wants.
That’s what she said.
Honestly though I love the size of the deck but could even go a little bigger. Agree that as more manufacturers start using SteamOS it will be great to have options.
Are you kidding me? Steam Deck is so big and clunky. Don’t even get me started on the piss poor ergonomics and the thing is fucking heavy as shit too!
I love it because it’s open source, but it’s shortcomings really leave a lot to be desired in my opinion.
That’s just, like, your opinion, man.
I think it’s perfectly sized. No need for change. And the OLED model is noticeably more lightweight than the original LCD model, so the newer one isn’t too heavy.
Interesting detail, I didn’t know that about the oled model
I’m with you, I have large hands but I’m a serious gamer. An hour in and I’m already feeling it’s weight and feeling the fatigue. It’s a very impressive device, but it doesn’t suit me and my needs at all.
Bought an r36s and it’s glorious. Playing all the classic SNES and PSX games I didn’t play back in the day. Can grind in an RPG for hours one handed and it fits in my pocket. Bonus is that it’s so cheap if it breaks or gets lost it’s no big deal.
Hell yeah, that’s what’s up! I’d definitely like to have another console to run emulators on, that isn’t the deck. Lol.
Odin 2 still has my attention.
Show me your deck
Deck pics
Yes, you’ve got a nice deck, okay??
I trimmed the bushes around it so it looks bigger.
Mfer really took “play anywhere” to heart.
They better release a new one before I break down and buy a new “gaming laptop” because I sometimes game.
What are you playing that needs more then the deck currently offers?
Truck simulator
Both Euro and American truck sims run just fine on my Steam Deck. Not on max settings, mind, but it’s good enough for the small screen.
I play some Helldivers and Marvel Rivals on my ultrawide for example. And while I’m currently playing Cyberpunk on my Xbox I might play similar titles on a computer too
Until more recently when they started getting competion, what other handheld gaming PCs even existed?
The first one I had was a GPD Win 2, in like 2018/2019-ish. You could do some fairly recent 3D stuff on it at the time, but it was better for 2D games.
There’s been a handful but nothing I could name off the top of my head and the specs meant anything more impressive than Super Meat Boy might be out of the question.
Just cheap crappy Windows 8 tablets for the most part, with controller buttons tacked on.
GPDwin for example?
I always wanted a mini laptop basically as big as my current phone but actually mobile.
Sadly I didnt have enough F-U money :(
there’s always handheld gaming pcs being released and going nowhere. the current generation includes the rog Ally and the Lenovo legion.
if you don’t follow this stuff religiously you’ve probably never heard of them, but they are out there. it’s just that no one really buys them.
the steam deck is the first successful one, but companies have been trying to make something like this for years.
I love when my hands get dominated
They are, in almost every way, taking the console model approach. Updates when there is a significant generational leap and not just yearly updates because AMD made a slightly faster APU (though they did the switch to switch OLED thing but no one complained about that because they kept the LCD models for sale and the OLED really is nicer), selling at a loss (and making up for it in game sales) and of course, the ease of use that a console interface offers over a traditional PC interface.
Then they step it up beyond that by making it as open as possible (software/emulation, games from any source, it’s really a PC) and making the hardware repairable (making parts available and easy to fix in the first place,) and of course, cheap games and practically every game you’d ever want.
What the other handheld PC companies are lacking is (with some exceptions) repairability, that console experience, and price. Us nerds that can do whatever with technology will do it, so a legion or an ally or a gpd will sell just fine to that demographic, especially for the frame rate chasers. But for most of the rest of people, they would just get a switch or a PS5 or Xbox because it’s just plug in and game, and at least in the case of a Switch or Xbox S, the cost of entry is way lower than a PC, be it a gaming desktop/laptop, or even many of the handheld PC competitors. Yes you can build comparable cheap PCs to an Xbox or PS5, but that means building a PC, and most people don’t want to do that (I’m not talking to you, I know you have a sweet rig.) Yes I know games on PC are usually cheaper especially Steam sales or key seller/bundle sites, but console gamers often don’t consider that, and initial cost of entry is very important to non-enthusiast type people in any given hobby.
There’s a reason why Nintendo consoles sell so well despite being behind the competition in raw horsepower. It’s the console model (and in their case aggressive exclusivity of their famous IPs)
The things keeping Sony and Microsoft in the competition are basically the console ease of use, and their all you can eat subscriptions. Even they both realized that they can get more sales putting their games on PC, but that still means forking over MSRP for a single game, so those ps+ and gamepass subs are keeping them afloat at this point.
I’m a huge tech nerd and have been deep in related industries for over 20 years. I know how to do whatever I want with any pc hardware or software, I own a steam deck, and a rog ally, a proper beefy gaming desktop, a gaming laptop, a Switch, and a PS4. Despite all that, in the past 2 years, easily 90% of my gaming has been on the Steam Deck. It does everything I need it to and more, and it does it anywhere, anyhow. If I want to tweak and tinker with it I can, but more importantly, I can just PLAY GAMES with almost no friction. At home, on a break at work, at the airport waiting for my flight, cozy in bed, wherever, whenever, and fast, and easy.
The Steam Deck is the swiss army knife game device that childhood me always dreamed of, and now it exists. That is why it’s outselling it’s competition, and genuinely making PC gaming a viable thing for the masses. No it won’t beat Nintendo anytime soon, but it’s gaining steam on them and other consoles faster than any other attempt ever has before, and it will only get better.
The ease of use of the Steam Deck cannot be overstated. Yes you can tinker with it a bunch but if you just want to play your games, you download and play. The windows handhelds will never be as easy since windows is just crap for this (and MS is not interested in improving).
100% agree
I would like Gabe to with the EU to make a EULinux. They both have respective reasons to get away from Microsoft’s control over software, and I would very much like to daily drive a Linux without worrying about game compatibility. Unfortunately, I am stuck with Windows because I play many obscure or old games, and simply hate dealing with technical hassles enough as it is. Here’s hoping that Linux becomes good enough within a couple years from now.
I jumped head first into Linux without any prior knowledge a year-ish ago, I went and chose what seemed to be a simple distro (Debian) and later found out it’s one of the more difficult distros out there (also most native packages are outdated) and some how made it work day to day.
Basically every game on steam is Linux compatible and a good handful of popular anti-cheats have partnered with Valve to ensure proper compatibility.
Now the problem is, game producers (like Ubisoft & EA) have been pushing this rhetoric that Linux users are all cheaters & hackers and intentionally prevent users from connecting to their servers or even launching the games.
I think the switch isn’t as bad as you make it seem. Hope I provided some insight.
Edit - dropping ProtonDB (fixed the link)
I ply in games that aren’t sold on Steam, that require Japanese locale, do mods, and so forth. Edges cases even on Windows can be a problem. My efforts with trying to get into Mint, made it clear that issues would pop up.
Linux is an good idea, but not yet suitable for intermediate users.
If you’re a gamer like me, go with Bazzite. You will not regret it.
I think the biggest hurdle against transitioning away from Windows to Linux for most government offices isn’t the OS itself - but rather the MS Office suite!
You’d honestly be surprised how pervasive Excel is amongst white collar workers; and I think the biggest hurdle is the uncertainty of compatibility (of formulas, macros, workbook links etc.) from Excel to Open/Libre Office alternatives.
My understanding is that Libre Office is the closest to actually being a good replacement to Excel. Having used Libre Office’s Excel equivalent, it does not feel good to use (then again, neither did Excel).
I’m not sure if we’ll ever be able to replace the Microsoft office suite - Microsoft owns the rights to those softwares’ workflow paradigms IIRC, and people who have been taught those workflows are not going to abandon them. I mean, we’ve not even managed to move away from the staggered qwerty layout that was established for typewriters in the 1870’s. I think the only options are for schools to either adopt new paradigms (using opensource software as teaching tools) over mass adoption in industry.
I’ll give Libre Office a crack over the weekend, if/when I get my Bazzite installation going and will see how it goes; I wonder just how much support it has for the newer functions that have outputs that overfill into adjacent cells (e.g. UNIQUE)?
I tried dworak for awhile and just like switching from windows it is a bit rough sometimes. Every game you play have to change keybindings as a person who play a lot of different games it became too much. But writing was so good. So much easier and intuitive. Only took like a week or something to get into it.
It is still a mystery to me why no one ever created software that can automatically pull videogame input config files and rebind for other layouts. I guess it is somewhat niche. At the same time, input config files are all pretty similar and it sounds fairly straightforward as a project.
Lutris has an option to switch to US QWERTY. Also doesn’t take much effort to do manually but it’s buggy with X.org (sometimes it insists on keeping the previous layout for no reason).
It’s not really ever an issue to rebind keys manually, it’s just time consuming. The point of auto-rebind would be time saving for nonstandard keyboard users.
I use BÉPO AFNOR and some games don’t like É instead of W, autorebind only works for me in games that actually have modern keyboard management and use key codes and/or understand Unicode, dead keys, etc. I’m better off setting the keyboard to US QWERTY
The main issue with Excel is that it is not multithreading in all operations. But for a lot of things it is the only software that can fit the bill.
Libre office feels a lot worse in to work in up to 8 hours a day compared to Excel and it is probably still missing some features like powerquery among others. I do need to test it again, it has been a while.
Then again I work as accountant so I am probably in minority of Excel users.
Try ONLYOFFICE, it’s FOSS and looks very much like modern Office Suit yet more modern looking than Libre Office
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/7a890d53-a669-4ab8-8c4c-ac052d3c6b45.webp">
Mine broke because of a faulty TI chip :/ At least i got my money back
Sounds impressive until you see the qualifier
Not that impressive.
Compare it to the whole handheld gaming market!
The whole handheld gaming market is pretty small. There’s the Switch which outsold the last couple gens of Xboxes and PlayStations. Good luck beating that. Besides that you have smartphones which just about everyone owns and only a handful of brands being especially popular. Then you have dedicated Android having handhelds and handheld emulation machines which are extremely niche.
So either you’re looking at extremely popular and widely owned handheld devices with extensive histories and customer loyalty or extremely niche devices. Not really a great comparison.
Wat!
Sourced from wikipedia: switch has sold over 150 million units.
150 million
Small as in not a lot of competitors…
Its no different to the console market. Essentially a duopoly
Ok and? What’s your point?
I’m just saying there’s not much competition in the handheld space. Either you have massively popular products with an extensive history or extremely niche devices. The handheld PC market is still fairly nascent and Steam Deck dominating it and popularizing it so much (even if it’s not that much compared to, say, the Switch) is still significant.
If you mean the switch, then it has been thoroughly squashed. If you mean phones, well I think we can agree they are not really competing for the same customers, and if you think they do, most people are buying phones for reasons other than gaming. So you’d need a way to section the market for “gaming phones” (yes, that’s a thing).
Hahaha You are delusional. Switch has sold over 150million units.
Yes, it squashes the steam deck, that’s what I said.
It’s easy to dominate when you were only one in the market for so long time.
They’re not, though. There’s quite a few other offerings in this space, and the Steam Deck appears to outsell all of them combined.
Use a competitor like the ASUS ROG for 30 minutes and you’ll understand why the SteamDeck is king.
Handheld PCs have been on the market for 20 years. Comparable to steam deck (x86_64) at least since 2016 GPD Win
Dingdingding, right answer here!
Basically just read and write emails handheld pc’s but they were not made for gaming.
They got the formula right on this space:
Now, price is partially because Valve can afford to subsidize the cost and expect to make it up on Steam sales. I’d be remiss to ignore how they’re making their money. Still, they’re also able to have a good price because they didn’t try to make it as powerful as it could be, but as powerful as it needed to be.
I wonder how many people, like me, who really use their Steam Deck as a Pirate Deck.
If I see a game I like on Steam Store I simply go to STEAMRlP and grab it pre-installed. Then I run it through Wine/Proton. Installing dependencies is very easy, thanks to steamdb.info + Wine-/Protontricks.
Now, some games I do buy afterwards. KCD2 is one example. The Last Flame another. When I know that I enjoy it, I know what I get for my money, then I can make the decision to buy it.
I’d guess not many. We’re a bit more Linux/tech savvy here but most users would hear “Wine/Proton” alone and freak out. I bring up my terminal and people somehow think I’m “hacking”. With all the convenience with buying and playing games on Steam, their model works (even on PC, with competing platforms and unlimited piracy potential).
Edit: They also have a really great refund policy.
Well, while probably not universally true, but I’m guessing that if you can afford to buy a steam deck, you can probably afford to buy games
Is there a guide you’d recommend following?
I’ll reply tomorrow with a guide. Gotta create a Lemmy community for it and then I’ll make a post-guide on how to!
I am currently editing the guide, will finish tomorrow. but you might have luck following it already. Check out lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/38810596
I almost always plug mine into my dock and run it with a controller lol, rarely use it as an actual handheld
Now that it has been three years, while I’d like to have one, I feel like I’ll just wait until whatever the next version is - even if that means waiting another year or so.
I don’t need one, particularly, and I don’t want to be caught at the tail end of this hardware.
I was on the fence of asking for one for my birthday late last year for exactly this reason.
What tipped me over was that I took a look at my Steam library and realized I literally have hundreds of indie and AA games that I’ve never played or have less than 4 hours in that I always meant to go back to. And that was it, I decided the Steam Deck was going to be my indie gaming experince platform. It has been amazing at doing this, and I’ve been chewing through my indie game library like crazy, and have picked up so many more that I’m loving gaming again! I can see myself keeping the current steam deck around and will be used regularly for at least the next 5 years.
If you’re looking for a portable machine that’ll tackle most modern & higher end games, either look at the alternative SteamOS portables or wait for the next Steam Deck (the touch screen, D-Pad, Sticks, and dual touch pad make it the best choice for best I out options for game compatibility).
However, if you want a great machine for indies, AA, older AAA titles, and console EMU, the current hardware is amazing and worth the price
Steam deck is awesome.
With the Desktop mode, a monitor, mouse, and keyboard it’s also just a computer.
Its been awesome playing games on it then flipping on my VPN and downloading movies and stuff that I can then watch on it.
The future is now
There’s a reason for that, and it’s more than the usual Valve fanboyism. The Deck is objectively a better user experience than the alternatives, Steam Input is a masterpiece, Linux runs games better than Windows now (thanks, Gabe), and the community around it is friendly and super helpful to everyone.
Even a device with better specs will have trouble surpassing the Deck if they can’t cover these areas as well.