'My personal failure was being stumped': Gabe Newell says finishing Half-Life 2: Episode 3 just to conclude the story would've been 'copping out of [Valve's] obligation to gamers'
(www.pcgamer.com)
from Agent_Karyo@lemmy.world to games@lemmy.world on 16 Nov 2024 13:40
https://lemmy.world/post/22091450
from Agent_Karyo@lemmy.world to games@lemmy.world on 16 Nov 2024 13:40
https://lemmy.world/post/22091450
Half-Life 2: 20th Anniversary Documentary by Valve
threaded - newest
At this point I am just expecting Half-Life 2: Episode 2, Part 2
Then Half-Life 2: Episode 2, Part 2; Chapter 2
Valve is asymptotically approaching episode three. Always getting closer, but never quite reaching it.
Manchester United: 3
: 3
Shame Ubisoft doesn’t feel this obligation to gamers. If they did, we’d probably only have 4 assassin’s Creed games
Is assassin’s creed any good? Once a game becomes a franchise with a bajillion releases I just tune it out. Feel the same way about marvel movies. Maybe they’re good, maybe they’re bad, but I’m more annoyed that they’re trying to shove it down my throat, so I tune out.
The first one was meh, the second one was good. Haven’t played most of the others but people seem to enjoy them.
There’s two or three good ones in the series. Thankfully the rest aren’t as bad as Far Cry which is just about the shittiest franchise I’ve ever had the displeasure of playing.
Far Cry 2 through 4 are fun. After that it’s pretty meh.
Obviously subjective, but I was a very big fan of the series for the first several entries, kinda began losing interest around Unity (although in hindsight, Unity is probably one of the best ones in a few ways, but at release it was a very buggy mess).
I am not personally a fan of the way they have ignored the modern day story line after around 3, as I am one of the few on the planet that actually found that part of the narrative compelling and the part I was really playing for.
I don’t like they gameplay changes since Origins, and it has increasingly become more of an action game over time and less of a dope assassin game.
Unity is flawed, but somewhat of an underrated gem. It’s such a shame that it released in the state it did and got the reception it did because that’s pretty much what caused Ubisoft to pivot into the style of the Origins and onwards style games.
Imagine what could have been if they built on what they had in Unity? The free run up/down system had so much potential and - while janky - the Unity parkour can produce some of the most pleasing, slick and stylish sequences. Just look at the stuff people are pulling off!
Also, revolutionary Paris is the best realised city they’ve ever made for an Assassin’s Creed game.
I absolutely loved the modern day story. I was so very invested and it still smarts a bit that they lost interest in doing it justice.
The downfall began when Ubisoft abruptly wrote Lucy out of the story after Kristen Bell asked for more money. Then they killed off the literal main character one game later, and nowadays you’d be excused for forgetting Desmond ever even existed given how little the modern day matters to the plot.
AssCreed4 is the best game of the series. Black Flag’s combat was great and the ship combat keeps me coming back to the game years on.
I’ve played pretty much all but the most recent. They have their ups and downs. The first was almost like a proof of concept. Kinda boring, but the story sets up the sequels. There was a good overall story arc in the Desmond/Ezio trilogy (Assassin’s Creed II, Brotherhood, and Revelations) that hasn’t been duplicated since.
AC3 was a bit of a breath of fresh air, being part of the American revolution, but it wasn’t for everyone. The story was being deviated from earlier games too much. AC4 is, for me, still the best single-player pirate game out there. It continues with Rogue. Both of those games I highly enjoyed.
Unity (Paris during French Revolution) and Syndicate (Victorian London) both have fantastic maps and character design, but gameplay and story just wasn’t as interesting to me. The series was feeling stale.
To Ubisoft’s credit, they knew that too and entirely revamped the gameplay and menu system starting with Origins (Ancient Egypt), then Odyssey (Ancient Greece), and Valhalla (Vikings during 9th Century). Valhalla was really fun. I love how they change certain villages up throughout the year… adding festivals/challenges depending on when you play. The maps were just getting too huge and overwhelming at this point.
I play the games now mainly for exploration. Gameplay and story are secondary as they aren’t as interesting anymore. They really put a lot of detail into their surroundings and do their research on history, whether real or fantastical. It’s escapism to another land in another time.
Ubisoft is not Rockstar. The story is no longer the reason to play these games. They are forgettable. The Desmond/Ezio storyline of the earlier games are no more. However, we don’t have to wait several years to play a sequel.
Valhalla was the only one that I paid full price for since it was 2020 and we were still basically trapped in our homes, but definitely got my money’s worth. They seemed to take more time making Mirage so I’ll check that out eventually. They are remastering some of their old games so I’d play those over the dated originals.
The Far Cry series has a similar feeling for me, but with a first person perspective. New lands to explore, new stories and characters, but some are better than others.
AC4 Black Flag is peak
Best sea shanty simulator of all time
The series should’ve ended with AC3, but Ubi milks IPs like crazy (think POP, both the 2008 reboot and whatever we got in last year)
Rogue had a great story though, I’d take it as a spinoff AC
We ought to improve as humanity so we can deserve Gabe.
We’ve been waiting for so long that games don’t even remember Half-Life. It’s all “silksong copium” memes now lol
Clearly this just means that Silksong IS Half-life 3.
I think HL3's meme status is the only reason a lot of gamers today do know it. If it had come out, it would've been forgotten.
I honestly don’t even see it memed anymore.
Just like duke nukem forever was. Had to think hard to remember the name.
That depends on how good it was but yeah when has the third in a trilogy ever been good?
“I was just stumped,” Newell said, sipping a drink on one of his many yachts. “Maybe I’ll get unstumped with my next yacht purchase.”
Overhearing the conversation, George RR Martin, sitting on a pile of money, quipped, “Yes, and I am thiiiis close to finishing the next book.”
How greedy of the man, to checks notes admit to not wanting to make a cash grab and instead leaving the series unfinished because they didn’t think they could do it justice.
Leaving it to rot for 15 years was far more unjust than a slightly less “revolutionary” game. And the concepts they show in the new doc are cool as hell! I would have loved to shoot at blobmonster! They just decided singleplayer FPS games weren’t as profitable, and that’s fine, I guess. They’re a company, they want to make money. But pretending they were somehow doing us a favor by leaving the cliffhanger for so long is utter nonsense. Especially since they wound up simply retconning it so the whole wait was pointless anyway!
Edit: y’all they literally said in the doc that if they’d kept working on it for 1-2 more years they would have been able to complete it, but they were more interested in multiplayer games and went to go work on that. But if you really want to drink the self-aggrandizing bs that Newell spouts, go right ahead
You can’t say anything bad or joke about him. He’s god around these parts.
A lot of these people will probably also say “billionaires shouldn’t exist” but for Gabe he’s “our” billionaire so it’s fine.
His cash grab was steam, lol.
Damn that bastard for making the best platform for buying and playing games. How dare he.
I’m not complaining, just noting that it was very lucrative. Folks are really overreacting with the downvotes. Chill people.
It sure sounded like you were. It’s because you said cash grab. That’s a negative attribute. You basically said it’s garbage but made him a lot of money. Along the lines of like the last 4 terminator movies.
Well, I use Steam a ton and have a Steam Deck. But, Steam dev effort to income ratio is probably ridiculously skewed. The company pretty much prints money. In that way, Steam is a cash grab.
I do question if Steam hadn’t been such a success if Valve might have released HL3 by now.
It has Google vibes to it. Google makes so much money in ad revenue that a lot of their other products just get cancelled.
I do like Valve overall though and am a fan. I’m a fan that wants to know the ending of HL3.
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cash grab
Zero punctuation on the orange box. youtu.be/_dlEm_2ke8k?si=bsTqae8W64qKny93
I think most gamers would have been perfectly happy with a trip to the Borealis just for the closure of the thing, even if the gameplay brought little to nothing new to the table other than some nice new visuals and arctic setpieces.
Instead we got Half Life: Alyx which was a stunning albeit niche experience in the same old City 17, which retconned Episode 2’s cliffhanger with another, different cliffhanger. For fuck’s sake, Gabe.
This. I didn’t (and still don’t) need groundbreaking gameplay for Episode 3. I just wanted an ending to the plot.
Only if you’re rich enough to afford VR setup. Fuck me for being born in a third world country, right Gabe?
Haha you’re poor
Choke on my toes
Don’t threaten them with a good time.
It was the same for HL2 though. I played it like 10 years after it was released, didn’t make the game worse. With VR the first experience will probably be even better in the future.
Literally how? All you needed was a computer that could run games, which if you were into gaming on PC, you already had.
It required a good computer which I living in a third-world country didn’t have.
But that was not exclusive to HL2. That’s for every AAA PC game released at the time. Don’t tell me you could run GTA:VC but not HL2.
VR is not exclusive to Alyx as well. I could run Diablo 2 but not HL2.
False equivalency. Most games these days, and for the foreseeable future, aren’t VR.
And are physically abled to play in VR.
I had a VR Headset (Vive Cosmos), but my eyes just aren’t up scratch, so I could never enjoy it.
I have so many thoughts about this.
I would've wanted a conclusion just to shut up all of the dead-horse beating to dust memelords that for years have been wagoning their tiresome HL3 jokes.
But, it's like, how many games have we waited so long to be released whether it's to continue the story or end it and the reception being more of "...wait that's it?!" than "I'm satisified."
Gamers are the hardest people to appease, so I get the sentiment that Gabe not only felt stumped but written himself into a corner with HL3. Whatever hype at all that has been built, is insurmountably high that whatever Valve pitches out, it's going to be mixed. It'll have a higher chance of being what happened to Duke Nukem Forever in context, than it being what Baldur's Gate 3 became 23 years later after Baldur's Gate II. It's a very narrow window to hit that sweet spot.
I wonder if at some point we’ll get a good HL3 from a different studio that have passion to make it’s worth.
So just leaving the series dead on a cliffhanger is somehow not a copp out to gamers??
It’s spelled coppp-out
The rest of the word is gonna be part of the Chapet 2 expansion of my comment. There will be no third.
Meh. They might have not wanted to make Ep3, but the fans sure did.
I understand Valve works or used to work very differently, people collaborating without a strong top-down steering from management. Yet whatever explanation they have, we were punched in the gut at the end of Ep2, then left waiting, holding our breath. It’s just a piece of media, but it was an important part of my teenage years, and I could never experience the end of the story (outside of reading it in a blog) I waited so much for.
This made me really resent Valve, and soured my experience/memories with the series, I haven’t touched HL or other Valve game for 10+ years, and I don’t think I will in the future.
Half-Life 2 doesn’t even have a good combat loop. Half-Life 1 has more variety in the weapons and the map team in HL1 actually talked to the AI team. Notice how the combine just stand in doorways or out in the open? It’s lost, but I once saw a video showing that the combine can flank the player and do other complex maneuvers if the maps are properly designed, but Gabe was too obsessed with the Gravity Gun and everything else suffered. The “puzzles” are all either busy work or another seesaw task. I remember being hyped when Gabe said that Ep2 would have the biggest physics puzzle in it, but it ended up just being a huge seesaw “puzzle” that was solved just by clearing the cars off of it.
Every time I do a Half Life replay, I always end up getting bored in HL2 and skip to the community made stuff. Half-life Echoes and Entropy: Zero are musts.
HL2 still did more for the industry than probably any other game on the market. Also, Minerva is a must to play, one of the best HL2 mods.
There are so many landmark games. I’d say HL1 was more influential then HL2 anyway. Hell, I’d say Portal did more for first person puzzle games then HL2 did for FPS games.
It just handicapped itself by making the gravity gun such busy work and ignoring other aspects.
HL2 is more than just the gravity gun. The art style, the open levels on the beaches, the facial animations, the improved storytelling from HL1, the antlion army, game was so much more than just an updated half life. Without HL2, portal wouldn’t have any legs to stand on, valve took on narbacular drop, hired the team and put them to work on the source engine to make portal. Counter strike source was the defacto mp shooter for years if not decades, hell even the portal 2 goo came from half life 2 ep 3 just like they mention in the documentary. Saying they ignored all other aspects of the game for the gravity gun does half life 2 a disservice to what it accomplished.
Hey, here’s this cool thing. You can summon Antlions to fight with you, but only in two areas and never again. Oh, that boss fight in Ep2 where you could have gotten it again? Nope, but here’s a Defend Against Waves set piece instead.
What I’m saying is that the combat loop got ignored for the gravity gun. Where’s the Gluon Gun? Why is the Tau Cannon only mounted to the buggy? Why are both the SMG and AR2 full auto, spread weapons? If we’re doing wide open areas, the AR2 should really have a tighter spread for long range engagements.
Halo did wide open environments, did vehicles with mouse or analog stick steering was a joy to drive and actually used them in more then one area before HL2. Keyboard steering sucks.
What HL2 excels at is presentation of the story. It’s really not that deep of a story.
Also, never liked CS or military shooters, so that’s not exactly a going to sell me. And don’t get me started on the hat shit.
The combat may not have been the most interesting versus basic grunts, but it never got stale. I’ve never played another game where the core gameplay changed so much so frequently.
Physics interactions -> Basic FPS -> Fan Boat -> Mounted Gun -> Gravity Gun -> Zombies & Traps -> Car -> THE CRANE FIGHT -> Rockets & Gunships -> Ant Lions -> Ant Lion Minions -> Turrets -> Resistance Squads -> Striders -> Super Gravity Gun
Honestly the HL1 combat may have been somewhat more challengjng, but it was a grind. Fights were often just frustrating. I’ve abandonded playthroughs because I didn’t feel like spending another 10 hours beating my head against the endless amounts of enemies just to get to the end of… whatever I was doing I forgot.
HL1’s big innovation was never removing control from the player just to tell the story. Beyond that they also had some interesting AI behaviour and weapons. It was a game with old-school length and old-school difficulty.
HL2’s big innovation was the physics engine, and they played with it in so many ways, while polishing every other aspect of the design. They kept the gameplay tight and did something just long enough to explore it and then they moved on. They never forced you to hang out just repeating the same loop over and over to pad the length.
.
I. Do. Not. Care. About. The. Tech.
Gabe, you created an obligation when you ended Episode 2 on a cliff hanger. You should have just let Marc Laidlaw and the game devs just make more games.
As long as it had kept the core writers, I’m sure everyone would be happy. Hell, any “innovation” is being handled by the modding continuity. Breadman of Entropy: Zero created a more fun combat loop then any of the HL2 games have. Singularity has a better physics weapons just by being able to use it independent of the selected weapon and making the object transparent.
Exactly. The tech doesn’t matter. Tech only exists in service of the gameplay, and (introduced with HL1), the story (previous to HL1 the ‘story’ of most games was just a quick blurb on why there’s monsters and why you have to shoot them).
Gamers DGAF about new tech. Gamers wanted to be told a story. We LOVED the story.
Valve could’ve used the existing engine, built NOTHING AT ALL NEW, and just finished the story with existing assets and we’d all have been over the moon happy.
You know, I knew the next HL game to come out after Ep2 would be a VR title. It was the most obvious direction Valve could go considering Gabe treats the HL series as a tech demo. Seriously, I think out of anyone at Valve, he has the least respect for the franchise. What I didn’t predict that it would a a VR exclusive title and that it would retcon the ending of Ep2 so a character that died(and who’s VA had died), would be alive again. Hell, they didn’t even ask one of the MC’s original VA to reprise her role(or cast into a different character if the age was an issue).
I have way more trust in the fan community to continue the story. Entropy: Zero took some cues from Epistle 3, so I hope the breadman and the Project Borealis are sharing notes, so the can have a shared continuity. I really, really liked the voiced MC of Entropy: Zero and the combat loop, with more enemy types and weapons was superb.
Unfortunately devs at Valve eventually will be swallowed by the money making machine called Steam. It’s the way the company is structured, the people working on the most profitable projects are rewarded the most.
Like the team working on In the Valley of Gods has disintegrated after Valve bought Campo Santo. The devs are all working on other things inside Valve.
I think that’s the thing that annoys me the most. Sometimes, a game doesn’t get a sequel because sales were bad or the studio was bought out or even went bankrupt. Here, it’s just because the guy running the company doesn’t feel like it. They have a constant stream of free money from Steam sales to fall back on, so why not just let your game devs do something? I haven’t kept up to date, but wasn’t there this huge gap of time where none of the TF2 devs had logged and played any TF2?
What did Episode 1 and 2 push forward?
Linear, set-piece story-telling.
It sure wasn’t rapid smaller releases
HL1 already did that
Copping out of an obligation?
Dude, not finishing the story and leaving us all on a cliffhanger for seventeen fucking years and then giving this as an excuse is the real cop out.
Looking back, I actually don’t like what Half-Life did to the genre. It didn’t push it forward; it made everything after a linear, set-piece experience with minimal replay value. It might have been different back in the day, but it wasn’t something I had hoped other developers clung to like they did.
Honestly, I have no problems with linear games.
Even Rockstar is fumbling with open-world games. God forbid if you try to do missions slightly differently than how Rockstar intended.
:It doesn’t necessarily have to be open world as is currently used these days. The OG Doom isn’t exactly linear, but also isn’t open world in any sense. Remove the loading times between levels and it would be open world in the way that term was originally used. The desirable aspect of an open world, for me, has more to do with the continuity of the play space than how games calling themselves open world games are designed. Free to explore the map without it just being a series of hallways with only one actual path and maybe 1 dead end per fork where they stick a “secret” or treasure.
The OG Doom is fairly linear, unless you play on the lowest difficulty level where all doors are permanently open. Else you need to kill specific enemies that can only be found in certain rooms to get keys.
At this point, I’m aching desperately for that linear shooter. They have other strengths. Halo Infinite offered a ton more freedom than the old games, but it was worse off for it.
It was very different back in the day.
I think it was inevitable. Before HL2 we had Deus Ex. It was glorious. Fans loved it. Game devs looked at it and went “F*%@ that! We’re not making 3 games worth of content when you’re only going to see 1 on a given play through!”
So that defines the basic tension. Gamers love replay value and multiple paths and different character builds and tons of secrets to explore. Game devs on the other hand want players to see every little blade of grass and tree they worked so hard at placing in the game. I think they also have a lot of data from achievements that show most gamers barely finish the game once, let alone discover all the secrets and alternate endings etc.
I’ll just say as an aging gamer, I simply do not have time to grind or replay things. I could do that stuff in highschool, but not anymore.
Grinding especially is a no-go for me. 100% achievements? No chance in hell that’s happening.
Life moves too fast and there’s too much entertainment. Devs that think people have time to sit there and enjoy some obscure shit they hid, will be disappointed.
That’s an interesting take! I’m getting to be an aging gamer myself and I no longer really play story-focused games. I play Roguelikes which I can pick up and drop any time, 5-10 minutes at a time, here and there. These games are designed to have maximum replay value. So even though I don’t have a lot of time I spend it on replaying rather than playing new games!
It’s an interesting difference and I think it depends on what we both look to get out of games.
Yea that’s also good. I do that with chess 😂
Why does Gabe newell look like Richard stallman,Funny enough they have different goals and oppose each other.
The man has aged since that famous photo from like 20 years ago.
~shock~
~gasp~
~questions asked at parliament~
frr
I’d have done it just to conclude the story, but then agian, I like stories…
Of ylu watch the video other core half life devs state they regret not finishing episode 3 with estimates thagbitbwoulf have only taken another ~2 years of work.
Although theybalsp pointed out we probably would have not gotten another game in exchange, like maybe portal or tf2