1984@lemmy.today
on 20 Sep 2024 18:37
nextcollapse
Nope.
Gaywallet@beehaw.org
on 20 Sep 2024 18:41
nextcollapse
wow what a thoughtful reply thank you, you really read that article and brought a lot of good points to the table for us to discuss
1984@lemmy.today
on 20 Sep 2024 18:55
nextcollapse
Ok I read the article… Answer is still nope.
Russian game companies are not our enemy. The leadership of the country may be, but so what? You going to try and influence that by choosing non-russian games? That’s ridiculous… :)
v4ld1z@lemmy.zip
on 20 Sep 2024 18:59
nextcollapse
Well yea, it’s another motivator for people to actively go against the Russian government in one way or another. The more discontent people are with the situation that’s been ongoing for 2+ years, the more likely something’s to happen, I’d wager
I think it’s silly. You can’t fight dictators with gaming choices. That stuff is real life.
Vodulas@beehaw.org
on 20 Sep 2024 19:43
nextcollapse
This is not about the politics of the company or whether or not the people support the government. Influence is not the point. This is about material support to the Russian government. Money spent on the game goes to the Russian government in the form of taxes. This blurb says it in plain text:
To put it crudely, an average gamer, who buys Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine 2 for $59.99, helps the company to fund the Russian army with almost $12
Caligvla@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 20 Sep 2024 21:30
collapse
Ok? And buying literally any game by EA, Activision, Microsoft, Sony, 2K, Devolver, Epic and countless other companies helps fund the war on Gaza and America’s neo-colonialism and imperialism. Notice I didn’t even mention European companies, because that’s another whole can of worms.
DdCno1@beehaw.org
on 20 Sep 2024 22:11
nextcollapse
Whataboutism isn’t a good look, but it’s consistently the only defense that people who defend autocratic hellholes like Russia and China come up with. You know it’s not even remotely the same.
Vodulas@beehaw.org
on 20 Sep 2024 22:32
nextcollapse
I have excellent news: you can also not buy games from those companies too.
helenslunch@feddit.nl
on 21 Sep 2024 00:52
collapse
I already don’t LOL but you’re still right.
It could be seen as funding the Ukrainians in their war against Russia though. Or literally anything else paid for by taxes which is…a fucking lot of things. It’s not like that money is sequestered for the war against Ukraine in Russia.
Gaywallet@beehaw.org
on 20 Sep 2024 20:29
collapse
Thank you for engaging 💜
callouscomic@lemm.ee
on 20 Sep 2024 22:40
collapse
To be fair, the OP did not ask them to read the article, they asked a yes or no question.
theangriestbird@beehaw.org
on 20 Sep 2024 18:49
collapse
I would argue we should. I win the argument! 👑
v4ld1z@lemmy.zip
on 20 Sep 2024 18:57
nextcollapse
This debate had been brought up back when Atomic Heart was bound to be released. Many people argued back then that it’s fine buying the game since the dev team had completely relocated to Cyprus (very popular country for Russians to move to next to Kazakhstan and numerous European countries), thus not funding the Russian government through taxes.
However, given that the dev team still lives in Russia this time, there’s not much to debate. The figures the author mentions check out and there’s no other way to put it, really, that gamers are, in part at least, funding Russia.
Sure, the company might have opposing views to Russia, but firstly, they haven’t moved to a different country, which is at least a little concerning, and secondly, are a legal entity in Russia, so they pay them regardless of motivation.
theangriestbird@beehaw.org
on 20 Sep 2024 19:54
nextcollapse
It’s interesting to compare to the Israel-Palestine debate, too. By the same logic, one should avoid buying any games from US-based developers, because those taxes are going to fund the genocide in Gaza. But of course, when you follow the logic to that end, one starts to consider their own income taxes in that debate.
v4ld1z@lemmy.zip
on 20 Sep 2024 20:22
nextcollapse
Yea that’s a valid point. Not really sure where to draw the line
Gaywallet@beehaw.org
on 20 Sep 2024 20:27
nextcollapse
Just because there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism doesn’t mean that we have zero control over what we consume. It’s perfectly fine to hold a viewpoint of trying to minimize harm where you can and when you’re aware of it. Where you draw your lines doesn’t have to be perfect either (after all, we’re human).
theangriestbird@beehaw.org
on 20 Sep 2024 20:37
nextcollapse
I appreciate that perspective, thank you
teawrecks@sopuli.xyz
on 20 Sep 2024 23:46
nextcollapse
Aka the Nirvana Fallacy. Aka “Don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good”
I think it’s better to just admit someone doesn’t care and they want to consume than trying to creating some moral loopholes for why it is excusable for a product they really want.
It’s like piracy. Some try so hard to morally justify it. Others just admit I want it for free. In the end we just want to consume. I sure do. I want my product.
The difference with Atomic Heart is that it wasn’t just made by a Russian developer, but that it also promoted a questionable outlook on the Soviet Union that closely mirrors the one the current Russian government is promoting.
AdellcomdoisL@beehaw.org
on 20 Sep 2024 20:07
nextcollapse
This is a ridiculous article. People are not their government. The fact that Russia is a non-democratic government even makes it even worse. The russian people still deserve to earn a wage, to pay for their necessities, even if their taxes - unfortunately - support a warmongering dictator, and they’re suffering through a draft. How is this any worse than the US government that not only builds itself on constant foreign interference as well as flat out invasions? And their soldiers willingly enlist. Should we ask that every american citizen starve themselves because their taxes support the military? Should we call that companies stop employing US citizens and drive them into poverty because of the countless atrocities the United States support?
To call out a foreign country on not standing up against their leaders is absurd. They control the policemen and the army, they have the weapons, the finances, and the policies. Why didn’t americans - the supposedly defenders of democracy - not easily depose Trump if that’s all it takes? Why are they struggling with a bipartisan system in which both candidates openly support the Palestinian genocide? Why not make a call for the rest of the world to abandon them and just let them die out? Its almost like its not that easy to change your entire nation, huh?
theangriestbird@beehaw.org
on 20 Sep 2024 20:22
nextcollapse
technically the article never goes as far as arguing that people should boycott the game, though that is obviously the implied thesis. I don’t exactly disagree with you, I just think it’s a conversation worth having.
The russian people still deserve to earn a wage, to pay for their necessities
While I can’t say that Saber for sure works this way, but every studio I know of pays a salary, and the sales of the game don’t factor in (with the exception of bonuses and maybe shady practices around contracted QA). The article even states they are busy working on their next game, so those people are currently being paid.
I don’t believe anyone is calling out the employees in this situation. I think the difference is agency. I can choose whether or not to spend money on the game, thereby choosing whether or not to send money to the Russian government. A Russian employee does not have that choice, much like people in the US don’t have a choice to pay taxes that fund a genocide. People buying leisure items do have that choice, though.
Faydaikin@beehaw.org
on 20 Sep 2024 23:30
nextcollapse
I don’t know.
But once ya’ll figure out where you stand, just know that Saber Int. has their fingers in quite a few upcoming titles.
t3rmit3@beehaw.org
on 21 Sep 2024 03:30
nextcollapse
This reminds me of similar questions around both Atomic Heart and Hogwarts: Legacy, and I think there are a couple differences in both cases.
In the case of Atomic Heart, part of the controversy was related to the sexualized robots that bear a traditional Ukranian hairstyle, and how subservient they are towards the player, as well as the way the USSR was depicted in general in the game. Taken together, a lot of people saw that as reflective of the current and common attitude of Ukraine being a subject state of Russia. So the monetary support for the devs were potentially directly benefiting people with questionable views.
In the case of Hogwarts: Legacy, the connection to a bad actor is even more clear cut, wrt JKR. Abstaining from purchasing it was roundly discussed as a boycott of her and her views, even if she had minimal connection to the game itself (we know she did financially benefit from it, as she stated it herself on Xitter).
I think this is one too many steps removed for me to condemn it in the same vein. Yes, Russia will benefit in tax revenue from it, but the studio isn’t state-owned or something; it’s no different than buying something made (in whole or part) in China giving tax money to the CCP to further Uighur genocide in Xinjiang, or tax money in the US going towards genocide in Gaza via military aid.
I’m not saying you’re a hypocrite if you choose to not buy this but still pay US taxes, because ultimately the consequences that you face for those 2 actions is very different. I might say it’s hypocritical to buy Chinese goods though, given they are still trading with Russia and supplying them materials.
Personally, I’m not going to treat all people as proxies for their government; that’s too close to collective punishment.
Kissaki@beehaw.org
on 21 Sep 2024 07:18
nextcollapse
it’s no different than buying something made (in whole or part) in China giving tax money to the CCP to further Uighur genocide in Xinjiang
The difference for me is that while I do try to avoid those things, it is not possible a lot of times. I can avoid buying a game 100% of the time. They are essentially a luxury item.
If someone is conflicted then best is to wait for a steep sale, bundle, or giveaway so it’s a decreased cut. Either way it’s a win win for the wallet and I don’t most people have trouble finding time to finish games and a backlog that keeps growing than having no games to play.
ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net
on 21 Sep 2024 18:36
collapse
I agree. If you buy a game brand new, you are telling the publisher that you want this game and support whatever they’re doing with it. All those FIFA/CoD players who buy on day 1 no matter how much garbage micro transactions added? They’ve accepted it with their wallets.
Buying on sale, it says you’re budget friendly while still kinda on board or willing to look away. I say a lot of shit about Ubisoft. But I absolutely buy their games at like $10, DRM toxic sexual harassment company BS and all.
Pirating, it means you don’t give AF. Probably the best solution of you wanna give a company the finger. But also willing to take some danger with you.
State of Fifa and NBA games is depressing. Even the annual release for roster updates wasn’t something I liked, but it being full on freemium casino at annual full price is why I stopped getting sports games years ago. Left too bad a taste to get ripped off like that.
threaded - newest
Nope.
wow what a thoughtful reply thank you, you really read that article and brought a lot of good points to the table for us to discuss
Ok I read the article… Answer is still nope.
Russian game companies are not our enemy. The leadership of the country may be, but so what? You going to try and influence that by choosing non-russian games? That’s ridiculous… :)
Well yea, it’s another motivator for people to actively go against the Russian government in one way or another. The more discontent people are with the situation that’s been ongoing for 2+ years, the more likely something’s to happen, I’d wager
I think it’s silly. You can’t fight dictators with gaming choices. That stuff is real life.
This is not about the politics of the company or whether or not the people support the government. Influence is not the point. This is about material support to the Russian government. Money spent on the game goes to the Russian government in the form of taxes. This blurb says it in plain text:
Ok? And buying literally any game by EA, Activision, Microsoft, Sony, 2K, Devolver, Epic and countless other companies helps fund the war on Gaza and America’s neo-colonialism and imperialism. Notice I didn’t even mention European companies, because that’s another whole can of worms.
Whataboutism isn’t a good look, but it’s consistently the only defense that people who defend autocratic hellholes like Russia and China come up with. You know it’s not even remotely the same.
I have excellent news: you can also not buy games from those companies too.
I already don’t LOL but you’re still right.
It could be seen as funding the Ukrainians in their war against Russia though. Or literally anything else paid for by taxes which is…a fucking lot of things. It’s not like that money is sequestered for the war against Ukraine in Russia.
Thank you for engaging 💜
To be fair, the OP did not ask them to read the article, they asked a yes or no question.
I would argue we should. I win the argument! 👑
This debate had been brought up back when Atomic Heart was bound to be released. Many people argued back then that it’s fine buying the game since the dev team had completely relocated to Cyprus (very popular country for Russians to move to next to Kazakhstan and numerous European countries), thus not funding the Russian government through taxes.
However, given that the dev team still lives in Russia this time, there’s not much to debate. The figures the author mentions check out and there’s no other way to put it, really, that gamers are, in part at least, funding Russia.
Sure, the company might have opposing views to Russia, but firstly, they haven’t moved to a different country, which is at least a little concerning, and secondly, are a legal entity in Russia, so they pay them regardless of motivation.
It’s interesting to compare to the Israel-Palestine debate, too. By the same logic, one should avoid buying any games from US-based developers, because those taxes are going to fund the genocide in Gaza. But of course, when you follow the logic to that end, one starts to consider their own income taxes in that debate.
Yea that’s a valid point. Not really sure where to draw the line
Just because there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism doesn’t mean that we have zero control over what we consume. It’s perfectly fine to hold a viewpoint of trying to minimize harm where you can and when you’re aware of it. Where you draw your lines doesn’t have to be perfect either (after all, we’re human).
I appreciate that perspective, thank you
Aka the Nirvana Fallacy. Aka “Don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good”
Adding to that, sometimes those lines are things you know of and would like to not cross, but are impossible to avoid.
Reductio ad absurdum, meet your distant cousin, reductio ad Judeam.
Proving a point by comparing something to the genocide in Gaza?
It’s just clumsy whataboutism. Nothing more to it.
I think it’s better to just admit someone doesn’t care and they want to consume than trying to creating some moral loopholes for why it is excusable for a product they really want.
It’s like piracy. Some try so hard to morally justify it. Others just admit I want it for free. In the end we just want to consume. I sure do. I want my product.
The difference with Atomic Heart is that it wasn’t just made by a Russian developer, but that it also promoted a questionable outlook on the Soviet Union that closely mirrors the one the current Russian government is promoting.
Right, that was a thing too
This is a ridiculous article. People are not their government. The fact that Russia is a non-democratic government even makes it even worse. The russian people still deserve to earn a wage, to pay for their necessities, even if their taxes - unfortunately - support a warmongering dictator, and they’re suffering through a draft. How is this any worse than the US government that not only builds itself on constant foreign interference as well as flat out invasions? And their soldiers willingly enlist. Should we ask that every american citizen starve themselves because their taxes support the military? Should we call that companies stop employing US citizens and drive them into poverty because of the countless atrocities the United States support?
To call out a foreign country on not standing up against their leaders is absurd. They control the policemen and the army, they have the weapons, the finances, and the policies. Why didn’t americans - the supposedly defenders of democracy - not easily depose Trump if that’s all it takes? Why are they struggling with a bipartisan system in which both candidates openly support the Palestinian genocide? Why not make a call for the rest of the world to abandon them and just let them die out? Its almost like its not that easy to change your entire nation, huh?
technically the article never goes as far as arguing that people should boycott the game, though that is obviously the implied thesis. I don’t exactly disagree with you, I just think it’s a conversation worth having.
While I can’t say that Saber for sure works this way, but every studio I know of pays a salary, and the sales of the game don’t factor in (with the exception of bonuses and maybe shady practices around contracted QA). The article even states they are busy working on their next game, so those people are currently being paid.
I don’t believe anyone is calling out the employees in this situation. I think the difference is agency. I can choose whether or not to spend money on the game, thereby choosing whether or not to send money to the Russian government. A Russian employee does not have that choice, much like people in the US don’t have a choice to pay taxes that fund a genocide. People buying leisure items do have that choice, though.
I don’t know.
But once ya’ll figure out where you stand, just know that Saber Int. has their fingers in quite a few upcoming titles.
This reminds me of similar questions around both Atomic Heart and Hogwarts: Legacy, and I think there are a couple differences in both cases.
In the case of Atomic Heart, part of the controversy was related to the sexualized robots that bear a traditional Ukranian hairstyle, and how subservient they are towards the player, as well as the way the USSR was depicted in general in the game. Taken together, a lot of people saw that as reflective of the current and common attitude of Ukraine being a subject state of Russia. So the monetary support for the devs were potentially directly benefiting people with questionable views.
In the case of Hogwarts: Legacy, the connection to a bad actor is even more clear cut, wrt JKR. Abstaining from purchasing it was roundly discussed as a boycott of her and her views, even if she had minimal connection to the game itself (we know she did financially benefit from it, as she stated it herself on Xitter).
I think this is one too many steps removed for me to condemn it in the same vein. Yes, Russia will benefit in tax revenue from it, but the studio isn’t state-owned or something; it’s no different than buying something made (in whole or part) in China giving tax money to the CCP to further Uighur genocide in Xinjiang, or tax money in the US going towards genocide in Gaza via military aid.
I’m not saying you’re a hypocrite if you choose to not buy this but still pay US taxes, because ultimately the consequences that you face for those 2 actions is very different. I might say it’s hypocritical to buy Chinese goods though, given they are still trading with Russia and supplying them materials.
Personally, I’m not going to treat all people as proxies for their government; that’s too close to collective punishment.
Great assessment and well argued!
The difference for me is that while I do try to avoid those things, it is not possible a lot of times. I can avoid buying a game 100% of the time. They are essentially a luxury item.
If someone is conflicted then best is to wait for a steep sale, bundle, or giveaway so it’s a decreased cut. Either way it’s a win win for the wallet and I don’t most people have trouble finding time to finish games and a backlog that keeps growing than having no games to play.
I agree. If you buy a game brand new, you are telling the publisher that you want this game and support whatever they’re doing with it. All those FIFA/CoD players who buy on day 1 no matter how much garbage micro transactions added? They’ve accepted it with their wallets.
Buying on sale, it says you’re budget friendly while still kinda on board or willing to look away. I say a lot of shit about Ubisoft. But I absolutely buy their games at like $10, DRM toxic sexual harassment company BS and all.
Pirating, it means you don’t give AF. Probably the best solution of you wanna give a company the finger. But also willing to take some danger with you.
State of Fifa and NBA games is depressing. Even the annual release for roster updates wasn’t something I liked, but it being full on freemium casino at annual full price is why I stopped getting sports games years ago. Left too bad a taste to get ripped off like that.