New users probably shouldn’t be installing .debs, especially if they don’t know about terminal commands. I’ve seen so many fucked up systems from people treating Linux as Windows, as in installing everything by searching for stuff on their browser, downloading an installer and installing that.
hiddengoat@kbin.social
on 22 Oct 2023 21:00
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In other words, you've seen fucked up systems because people treat their Linux system like literally every non-Linux system they've used.
Which is a Linux problem, not a user problem.
grue@lemmy.world
on 22 Oct 2023 21:05
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It’s hardly a Linux problem that other OSs have done things in an inferior way.
hiddengoat@kbin.social
on 22 Oct 2023 21:11
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The "inferior way" being precisely the kind of walled garden Linux apologist types typically shit their pants and smear in on their faces about. But it's fine because it's UBUNTU's walled garden! Can't be using anything Ubuntu doesn't allow!
A dozen incompatible distribution standards, with shit not even compiled for most of them, relying on the distro for updates that can run several versions behind because the newest version isn't compatible with THEIR ecosystem...
But App Store bad. Windows Store bad. Play Store bad.
Piss on that hypocrisy.
KISSmyOS@lemmy.world
on 22 Oct 2023 21:22
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You sound like Slackware is the distro for you. There’s no walled garden. In fact there isn’t a garden at all, you go out into the wilderness and forage, but first you have to learn how to make the plants edible.
Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
on 22 Oct 2023 21:48
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The issue was that those users didn’t understand what they were doing and managed to mess up their systems. If you know what you’re doing then installing debs like regular could be totally fine.
voodooattack@lemmy.world
on 22 Oct 2023 21:51
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A walled garden doesn’t offer you the freedom to leave it. If you’re unhappy with Ubuntu, you can use a bajillion other distros and get the same software elsewhere. If you preserve your home directory and distro hop then nothing changes for you and your preferences/dot files carry over. I jumped between three distros at some point and my custom GNOME setup (extensions and all) survived through it with minor changes. Heck. Even Thunderbird kept my profile active and I never had to re-add all my email credentials from scratch.
Can you do that with Windows or MacOS?
hiddengoat@kbin.social
on 22 Oct 2023 22:35
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Can you do that with Windows or MacOS?
Yes, I can in fact download programs that aren't on the Windows or Mac app stores. Are you even paying attention here?
EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world
on 22 Oct 2023 22:37
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But you can’t completely switch your system with a different version managed by different people while preserving your home folder.
You can’t choose the windows you get, Microsoft chooses for you
hiddengoat@kbin.social
on 22 Oct 2023 22:44
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I'm sorry, are we talking about shit that users do or are we talking about masturbatory sysadmin jizzcup filler? Because it seems like you're not paying attention to the conversation, which is that Ubuntu doesn't even let users install .deb packages through the fucking package manager.
EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world
on 22 Oct 2023 22:51
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It’s not hard to switch to another Linux distro. Many, like mint, even let you separate the home partition with the grafical installer too.
KISSmyOS@lemmy.world
on 22 Oct 2023 21:12
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“not being exactly like Windows” isn’t a problem at all.
Also, absolutely everyone is familiar with systems that use a central app repository instead of downloading executables with a browser, on their phone.
hiddengoat@kbin.social
on 22 Oct 2023 21:18
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"Oh look, this software isn't available in the selection that Fedora/Ubuntu/Mint/whatever decided I should have. I guess I can't install it despite the fact that there are compatible packages for my distro."
Yeah right. Walled garden horseshit. Linux apologists do anything they can to move goalposts, to the point where using it is fucking impossible if you actually listen to every asshole's personal opinion.
If you can't adapt to the user's behavior YOU are in the wrong. End of fucking story.
And seriously, you're using an app store to illustrate why limiting user choice is good. What the actual fuck are you doing on a Linux sub anyway?
KISSmyOS@lemmy.world
on 22 Oct 2023 21:27
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If you can’t adapt to the user’s behavior YOU are in the wrong.
To avoid this issue, I use a distro that doesn’t give a flying fuck about what the user wants.
That’s the original Linux way: Someone makes a distro in their free time for fun, or for themselves. If it’s useful to others, great. If not, they can go change it, make their own distro or fuck off.
Repeat after me: FREE SOFTWARE ISN’T A PRODUCT. THERE IS NO PROFIT. MARKET SHARE IS IRRELEVANT.
So keep using Windows. Nobody cares.
hiddengoat@kbin.social
on 22 Oct 2023 21:35
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UBUNTU IS A PRODUCT. IT MAKES PROFIT. MARKET SHARE IS HOW THEY MAKE MONEY FOR DEVELOPMENT.
Or did you not even bother reading the fucking headline?
Or were you too busy moving the goalposts to even do that?
EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world
on 22 Oct 2023 22:34
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Ubuntu maybe, but Linux ain’t a product. Most Linux distros aren’t there to make a profit, they’re there because someone thought they’d be useful. They don’t care about markets hare or anything like that.
If you put the faults of Ubuntu on all of Linux then you don’t know much about Linux at all.
If Ubuntu does stupid shit, let it fail who cares there’s a billions distros to choose that provide a better experience than Ubuntu, and certainly better than Windows and macOS
hiddengoat@kbin.social
on 22 Oct 2023 22:39
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Goalpost moving fuck.
Not there to make a profit? Then why the fuck do all of the major distros have donation pages, and shops, and foundations, and all of the other things that generate money for a handful of people? Stop fucking acting like mainstream Linux distros are still Slackware equivalent one-man operations. That's horseshit and you fucking know it.
EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world
on 22 Oct 2023 22:54
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Then why the fuck do all of the major distros have donation pages
To help for whatever, but they’re donations, not selling you anything, not there for profit.
shops, and foundations, and all of the other things that generate money for a handful of people?
Not every distro, not even every mainstream distro, has this. And not every one of these things is necessarily there to make a profit over being a simple donation.
If you think accepting donation necessarily means wanting to make a profit then you might not be the brightest star in the sky
respectful counterpoint: marketshare is important, especially if we want to get more users to use ethical softwares instead of corporate controlled proprietary messes.
that doesn’t mean this particular issue needs to adapt to a Windows-style approach (and in fact it already can with flatpakref files, AppImages, etc.), but dismissing accessibility to people unfamiliar with Linux or dismissing having a goal of increasing Linux usage is harmful to the longevity of desktop Linux in society, and harmful to the goal of competing with the monopolistic, proprietary platforms that currently dominate.
EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world
on 23 Oct 2023 09:16
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There’s distros aimed at newbies. Maybe these distros should ship with a small, quick, idiot-proof tutorial saying (with fancy images too) “hey don’t do this, do this instead” “if you need to do this you can do so like this” and some common troubleshooting but you’d still have some folks who refuse to listen and do something that breaks their system. And we as a community should only tell noobs to use one or two distros like Linux Mint, at most a few other options in case someone needs something more specific. But aside from these distros not every distro should aim for larger marketshares, in fact some are probably better left with low marketshares (for desktop users anyways).
Also, it is impossible to have a system that doesn’t have problems at some point and users shouldn’t expect to not run into issues and they should be willing to at least try and look up a solution, and this doesn’t go just for Linux. The closest to an unbreakable system that I can think of is Debian where the only thing someone uses is Firefox to navigate the safe sites, possibly with uBlock Origin on and the browser is in a flatpak or contained in some way. If someone doesn’t want to learn at least the basics of how to use a computer and how to try to fix your problems they probably shouldn’t be using computers honestly.
Of course there’s issues that aren’t easy to resolve and that’s what forums and IT technicians are for too.
Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
on 22 Oct 2023 21:47
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Flatpaks
EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world
on 22 Oct 2023 22:18
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this software isn’t available in the selection that Fedora/Ubuntu/Mint/whatever
My man, those repos are vast as shit. The only time you will run into this situation is either if you’re using obscure software (that most newbies won’t use, and then again if you can’t Google a few things you shouldn’t be using obscure software) or stuff that isn’t supported on linux at all.
limiting user choice
We aren’t limiting user’s choice. You can do literally everything you want on Linux, just need to know how. You need to know how to do stuff in other OSes too btw, but doesn’t mean they will let you do everything.
hiddengoat@kbin.social
on 22 Oct 2023 22:37
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Those repos are nowhere near vast as shit. It's trivial to find software that isn't one or more of them, and quite often what is there isn't remotely a recent version.
Removing the ability to install .debs is literally limiting user choice and walling things off so the user doesn't hurt themselves, the same shit that every fucking Linux knob has been squealing about Windows and MacOS doing for decades.
EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world
on 22 Oct 2023 22:45
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This shows to me that you either didn’t use Linux a lot or don’t understand it.
quite often what is there isn’t remotely a recent version.
That is cause you’re using a stable release distro. If you wanted up to date packages you wouldn’t use something based on Debian stable but either a rolling release or semi-rolling like Fedora. Or Flatpaks, appimages, and the many other options you have. Again, not hard stuff to figure out if you are willing to learn. User’s fault.
Removing the ability to install .debs
Nobody is doing that, except maybe Ubuntu, you just need to learn how to do it. And if your distro does it, well wouldn’t you know it there 100000 distros more you can choose. Again if you’re looking for .debs first of all you’re not getting something different than what you’re getting on the official repo, and secondly you’re almost certainly looking for software that is lesser known or has bad support for Linux. In 2023 almost everything someone needs is in the repos of distros like Mint and Debian. Certainly everything for the type of user that is too lazy to Google anything.
EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world
on 22 Oct 2023 23:12
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That’s because the latest version of the software has some incompatibility with the distro that the distro devs can’t be arsed to fix.
You are using a stable release distro (like ubuntu) and expecting it to act like a rolling release and then get surprised when it doesn’t act like one. Again, if you don’t know what you’re doing and your tools, it ain’t the tool’s fault if shit ain’t working the way you expect it to.
If you’re not aware of how often this happens then YOU are the one that clearly doesn’t actually use Linux on a daily basis.
I have been using Linux on a daily basis for years, from mint to arch, and I can tell you haven’t, or more likely haven’t looked up how ot works, by how easily resolved the problems you mentioned would be of you just took the time to Google and inform yourself a bit on the tool you want to use.
WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK WE ARE TALKING ABOUT YOU ILLITERATE COW-FELLATER?
You’re the one here who keeps saying Linux sucks because of an Ubuntu-only problem and then complaining about it when people rightly inform you that you can always choose another option that doesn’t have the problem or do things differently to achieve the same result.
completely reinstall your entire system because one fucking dev doesn’t like having to deal with users installing .deb files.
Takes 15 minutes or less. And if you don’t want to do that you can do something else like flatpaks, learning how to do what you’re trying to do with the terminal or another way. You have plenty of choice, you just need to stop baby raging, Google a bit and fox your issue.
Says you, and who the fuck are you besides nobody?
I can say the exact same response to you saying the Mint repos are small. I am someone who used mint for about 2 years before switching off of it and know people who have used it for as long as it exists and never had to install programs that weren’t some very uncommon/specialized ones from outside the package manager.
Again, a cunt blaming the user for a distro removing options
The distro removing an option is shitty but if you don’t want to switch to a different distro or do the necessary work to fix it then it is your fault when the problem isn’t magically fixed. This isn’t proprietary shit, you don’t have to beg the company overlord to fix it for you (if they want). Open the browser, look for a solution to your problem that you like, and solve the issue.
I see you’re angry, but it makes you look bad if you let it out on others. Can’t you just discuss this in a civilised manner? I get that you’re edgy and think you’re smarter than the rest of the people, but you’re literally here to complain about a pretty newbie thing to do, so I’d refrain from telling others they’re illiterate.
You don’t need to reinstall your distribution if you want to install DEB files, you just need to find a way that is not broken. Although I’d really recommend reinstalling another distribution if you’re using Ubuntu because they keep doing questionable decisions.
I don’t know what to respond to the rest of your angry rant because it doesn’t contain substance I would be able to respond to. Looking at your other posts it’s probably not worth engaging with you anyway since you’re digressing into angry rants 80% of the time. Hope you can prove me wrong.
moomoomoo309@programming.dev
on 22 Oct 2023 22:45
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I think you’re mixing up “You shouldn’t do this” with “you shouldn’t be able to do this”. The former is common in Linux, the latter is not. No one is advocating for the latter.
hiddengoat@kbin.social
on 22 Oct 2023 22:52
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I like finally seeing someone sane in a Linux sub. Am I dreaming? I love Linux but I hate how unapologetically elitist and blind the fanbase is regarding the egregious user-unfriendliness.
“But it works for me!!” - Yeah, Bob, you just spent 25 hours troubleshooting your network drivers and recompiling their kernel module.
“Just choose the distro you want!!!” - Yeah, Alice, you just spent 5 hours researching the various distributions available.
“I never had any problems!!” - Yeah, Kaitleiynn, you have the exact hardware configuration and OS combo that works perfectly.
t0m5k1@lemmy.world
on 22 Oct 2023 21:13
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No it is not a system issue. User made an assumption and got a slap as this is not windows.
hiddengoat@kbin.social
on 22 Oct 2023 21:15
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Something that worked last week now does not work.
System issue. Suck less shit at systems and maybe people in general would give a shit about Linux.
EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world
on 22 Oct 2023 22:25
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You act like problems don’t happen on windows and macOS. But they do happen, and they’re harder to fix than on linux most of the time.
Then again, with immutable distros, Debian, Linux Mint, and others, most of the time if something doesn’t work it is because the user did something to break their system and in those cases put effort into it.
If you are a user that only uses the computer to browse the web, maybe play some games on steam, then you’re unlikely to encounter any issues provided you chose the right distro (Mint would be my recommendation but I hear Fedora Silverblue works nicely). If you’re the kind of user to tinker a lot then you’re likely not a noob and you have no excuse for not looking up what you’re doing.
If you aren’t willing to learn at least the basics of how to do the stuff you want to do then probably you shouldn’t do that stuff, not blame the system for doing what you told it to do.
hiddengoat@kbin.social
on 22 Oct 2023 22:40
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"Provided you choose the right distro."
Yeah. Windows or MacOS if you actually want to do shit.
EDIT
Just wanted to mention, I've never had an issue with Windows or MacOS that wasn't directly caused by my own personal fuckery. Somehow though, I've had multiple Linux distro installs decide to hose themselves because they didn't update through the precious fucking package manager properly. You know, the thing that everyone is now shitting on users for not using?
The most fun one was whenever a Debian update decided that the right thing to do was move my primary drive into a subfolder in /etc. Yeah. That fucking happened.
EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world
on 22 Oct 2023 22:48
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So you’re complaining that your system breaks because you’re trying to use it as something that it isn’t, without looking up what you’re doing, and somehow that’s not your fault?
If you try to use a fork as an outlet cleaner don’t complain that the outlet sucks when you’re getting electrocuted.
Pantherina@feddit.de
on 22 Oct 2023 21:24
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Hahah not a Linux problem at all
Pantherina@feddit.de
on 22 Oct 2023 21:38
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Thats also possible with appstream. But unless the repos go and people just install flatpaks, stuff like this will happen.
Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
on 22 Oct 2023 21:46
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Well it was the users who had a problem with their systems being messed up
hiddengoat@kbin.social
on 22 Oct 2023 22:34
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Yes, by the shit-tier decisions of the distro developers.
You mean their decision to allow GUI installs of debs or what do you mean? The problem was the easy install and since they can’t control what is installed, the people I mentioned just installed whatever random shit not even made for the distro in question. It was a mess.
No, it’s a user problem on both OS’s.
Installing random shit from untrustworthy sources is a much more likely source of infection that a zero-day, network-based exploit, etc
Not every OS allows you to simply click on a random installer/eventually (maybe enter a password) and get owned.
IOS on phones doesn’t.
Android requires you enable untrusted sources.
It sounds like not including a GUI app by default to click-install random packages (outside the package manager) is the extra step for various Linux distros. That’s not a problem, that’s a good idea.
nik282000@lemmy.ca
on 23 Oct 2023 01:25
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Github is untrustworthy, anyone can put anything on there. It is up to the end user to determine if a project is safe to use or not.
The default repos for Debain on the other hand are filled only with software that has been checked by at least one competent person, making them inherently safe.
hiddengoat@kbin.social
on 23 Oct 2023 01:50
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But I thought the open nature of open source meant it was safe because someone has checked all code everywhere!
This shit has become tedious.
nik282000@lemmy.ca
on 23 Oct 2023 02:41
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This shit has become tedious
No kidding. Open source software is safe because it can come from a trusted source that can be checked by others. Not every open source project is checked but the default repos of Debian, for example, are checked and can be trusted.
All closed source software, on the other hand, is untrustworthy because it can never be checked. This goes for the iOS and Android ecosystems as well. Despite their walled gardens the software is not open and can not be checked, which is why malicious software keeps making it’s way onto phones.
Have you ever heard of malicious code in the Debian repos?
Was it ever trustworthy? What made you think that?
isVeryLoud@lemmy.ca
on 23 Oct 2023 00:44
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Problem is a lot of closed source software still release their software as .deb or .rpm packages that installs their repos so you can install their software from the software centre.
Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
on 23 Oct 2023 12:08
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I’m telling them that because it is a poor idea. But preferably the system should fix user mistake and behind the scenes just install Discord from repo or flatpak, with option to bypass this behaviour for those who know what they’re doing.
Preferably these software vendors would know to guide users towards proper ways of installing stuff, but that’s not happening.
Holzkohlen@feddit.de
on 23 Oct 2023 12:27
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Tell them to install via flatpak. Spotify, Discord and so on should be available as flatpak via Gnome Software or the KDE software center. NOW on Ubuntu, this is anyone’s guess. I’m guessing there is no flatpak support by default. Ubuntu is doing the linux community a disservice.
Pantherina@feddit.de
on 22 Oct 2023 21:23
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Add a GUI desktop entry for that, assign .deb file mimetype to it, bam. A usable experience.
khorovodoved@lemm.ee
on 23 Oct 2023 11:48
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rotopenguin@infosec.pub
on 22 Oct 2023 20:34
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If a website stuffed a .deb into your Downloads folder and you click on it, should the default behaviour be to run it? Is there a significant pile of Ubuntu software out there that is unavailable in the apt and snap and flatpak stores? Other stores such as Steam and Epic (Heroic) are easily installable via … starting in your apt/snap/flatpak store.
KISSmyOS@lemmy.world
on 22 Oct 2023 20:43
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The default beaviour shouldn’t be to run it, but it also shouldn’t be to tell you that a program that can run it doesn’t exist, when it actually does.
If you want to do it via GUI, default behaviour should be to tell you that for security reasons, installation of deb files from the web is disabled, with a link to the root-accessible setting that enables it (similar to Android, for example).
billwashere@lemmy.world
on 22 Oct 2023 22:07
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And neither is a doc file, but most OSes would open up a compatible word processor.
jonne@infosec.pub
on 22 Oct 2023 22:54
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It can install a service that will start automatically after install, so for all intents and purposes, if you click it and enter your sudo password, you might as well have run an executable.
rotopenguin@infosec.pub
on 23 Oct 2023 06:03
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It has pre and post-install scripts. Once you hand it off to dpkg, it can do pretty much anything.
answer42@lemmy.world
on 23 Oct 2023 05:04
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Ubuntu goes full enshitification… Glad I’m back to pure Debian for a long time
danielfgom@lemmy.world
on 23 Oct 2023 06:31
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Yeah man. I’m on LMDE 6 and SO glad about that. No Ubuntu BS. Just pure Debian with Mint optimizations and desktop.
Holzkohlen@feddit.de
on 23 Oct 2023 12:04
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I’d be very surprised if the Mint team keeps the regular mint releases going instead of just going all in on LMDE
nik282000@lemmy.ca
on 23 Oct 2023 15:53
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I’ve used plain old Debian since ~2016 and only just tried LMDE this month, it’s really nice! I prefer Gnome but the default LMDE desktop was perfectly usable and clear, and I really like that it walks the user through setting up automatic backups. I would definitely recommend it over Ubuntu now for new users.
junezephier@lemmy.sdf.org
on 23 Oct 2023 16:19
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For whatever reason, when i tried to fresh install lmde 6 two weeks ago, it absolutely refused to set up grub properly for me. Something in the installation just refused to work, despite reformatting and setting up partitions in both the automatic and manual configurations. Hopefully other new users have a smoother time than i did?
nik282000@lemmy.ca
on 23 Oct 2023 17:50
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Was it a uefi thing? In the past 10 years the only fail-to-install issues I have had were related to that.
admin@sh.itjust.works
on 23 Oct 2023 19:53
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I’ve had that happen on EndeavourOS but it was because of a corrupted ISO. Have you checked checksums?
danielfgom@lemmy.world
on 23 Oct 2023 16:12
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From what I’ve seen they like to take things slow. However I agree that it’s only a matter of time now. Ubuntu also plans to have the next distro LTS released as both a regular iso and a snap-only read-only version.
In other words two iso’s will be supplied and one will be immutable and every component and library will be all snaps only. This is the future they envision for Ubuntu so Mint will definitely have to move to Debian only eventually.
danielfgom@lemmy.world
on 23 Oct 2023 06:39
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I thought that perhaps Ubuntu were done with screwing the community after they forced snaps on their users.
Just when I thought, ok that’s it what worse could they do?, then they pull this nonsense!
They really, really don’t want the user to have control of the system do they? They think we are dumb and need a walled garden experience like Apple where you only get apps from Snaps or the repo.
And frankly it’s against the principles of FOSS where the foundation is to protect user freedom.
I moved to Mint when this snaps thing made me feel up. And as soon as LMDE 6 came out I immediately switched to that .
I highly recommend everyone abandon Ubuntu and Fedora - the two Corporation backed distros - and use only 100% independent distros like LMDE or Debian or any of the others.
And if you’re using a distro that is Ubuntu or Fedora based pressure the dev to move to Debian or opensuse. Or any other independent base.
If we don’t take action as a community eventually new users will become accustomed to this BS and will never know what it’s like to use REAL Linux.
Which is by almost all means better than downloading a random crap of a package from the web because “that’s how it’s done on wondows”. Seriously, distributing software via repositories is like second most important reason the situation with malware isn’t the same on the desktop Linux market (the first being small market share). And nope, that’s not because Linux is somehow “more secure”, which it isn’t.
thepiguy@lemmy.ml
on 23 Oct 2023 07:32
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Unpopular opinion, I think this should be like this if there exists a snap or a package in the repo for it. Even if this is a bug. Maybe they should make a popup educating users about how they don’t need to download installers. As for apps like discord, I believe there is a well maintained snap package available to install easily from the app center. I can’t seem to find chrome there sadly, but it is on flathub. I hope it gets a package.
MazonnaCara89@lemmy.ml
on 23 Oct 2023 07:42
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I don’t agree with you on this, people are used to install app on other operating systems this way, there is a better way yes I’m not arguing this, but a lot of proprietary software is distributed this way and not on the snap store, and being ubuntu a noob friendly distro make it worse for the averange user to search the internet only to install deb packages instead of providing a user friendly interface!
Yup, I understand that people are going to search for an installer and install it that way. What I am saying is maybe they should direct users to the snap store or something if the package they are trying to install exists on there already. Pretty non intrusive way to make sure they are doing it the right way.
Edit: this is not me advocating for snaps btw. I don’t care what package manager anyone uses, as long as its not bricking your system.
threaded - newest
Try command line?
That’s likely an app just not installed by default for GUI
Correct, but new users don’t want to need the command line for something as simple as installing packages.
New users probably shouldn’t be installing .debs, especially if they don’t know about terminal commands. I’ve seen so many fucked up systems from people treating Linux as Windows, as in installing everything by searching for stuff on their browser, downloading an installer and installing that.
In other words, you've seen fucked up systems because people treat their Linux system like literally every non-Linux system they've used.
Which is a Linux problem, not a user problem.
It’s hardly a Linux problem that other OSs have done things in an inferior way.
The "inferior way" being precisely the kind of walled garden Linux apologist types typically shit their pants and smear in on their faces about. But it's fine because it's UBUNTU's walled garden! Can't be using anything Ubuntu doesn't allow!
A dozen incompatible distribution standards, with shit not even compiled for most of them, relying on the distro for updates that can run several versions behind because the newest version isn't compatible with THEIR ecosystem...
But App Store bad. Windows Store bad. Play Store bad.
Piss on that hypocrisy.
You sound like Slackware is the distro for you. There’s no walled garden. In fact there isn’t a garden at all, you go out into the wilderness and forage, but first you have to learn how to make the plants edible.
The issue was that those users didn’t understand what they were doing and managed to mess up their systems. If you know what you’re doing then installing debs like regular could be totally fine.
A walled garden doesn’t offer you the freedom to leave it. If you’re unhappy with Ubuntu, you can use a bajillion other distros and get the same software elsewhere. If you preserve your home directory and distro hop then nothing changes for you and your preferences/dot files carry over. I jumped between three distros at some point and my custom GNOME setup (extensions and all) survived through it with minor changes. Heck. Even Thunderbird kept my profile active and I never had to re-add all my email credentials from scratch.
Can you do that with Windows or MacOS?
Yes, I can in fact download programs that aren't on the Windows or Mac app stores. Are you even paying attention here?
But you can’t completely switch your system with a different version managed by different people while preserving your home folder.
You can’t choose the windows you get, Microsoft chooses for you
I'm sorry, are we talking about shit that users do or are we talking about masturbatory sysadmin jizzcup filler? Because it seems like you're not paying attention to the conversation, which is that Ubuntu doesn't even let users install .deb packages through the fucking package manager.
It’s not hard to switch to another Linux distro. Many, like mint, even let you separate the home partition with the grafical installer too.
“not being exactly like Windows” isn’t a problem at all.
Also, absolutely everyone is familiar with systems that use a central app repository instead of downloading executables with a browser, on their phone.
"Oh look, this software isn't available in the selection that Fedora/Ubuntu/Mint/whatever decided I should have. I guess I can't install it despite the fact that there are compatible packages for my distro."
Yeah right. Walled garden horseshit. Linux apologists do anything they can to move goalposts, to the point where using it is fucking impossible if you actually listen to every asshole's personal opinion.
If you can't adapt to the user's behavior YOU are in the wrong. End of fucking story.
And seriously, you're using an app store to illustrate why limiting user choice is good. What the actual fuck are you doing on a Linux sub anyway?
To avoid this issue, I use a distro that doesn’t give a flying fuck about what the user wants.
That’s the original Linux way: Someone makes a distro in their free time for fun, or for themselves. If it’s useful to others, great. If not, they can go change it, make their own distro or fuck off.
Repeat after me: FREE SOFTWARE ISN’T A PRODUCT. THERE IS NO PROFIT. MARKET SHARE IS IRRELEVANT.
So keep using Windows. Nobody cares.
UBUNTU IS A PRODUCT. IT MAKES PROFIT. MARKET SHARE IS HOW THEY MAKE MONEY FOR DEVELOPMENT.
Or did you not even bother reading the fucking headline?
Or were you too busy moving the goalposts to even do that?
Ubuntu maybe, but Linux ain’t a product. Most Linux distros aren’t there to make a profit, they’re there because someone thought they’d be useful. They don’t care about markets hare or anything like that.
If you put the faults of Ubuntu on all of Linux then you don’t know much about Linux at all.
If Ubuntu does stupid shit, let it fail who cares there’s a billions distros to choose that provide a better experience than Ubuntu, and certainly better than Windows and macOS
Goalpost moving fuck.
Not there to make a profit? Then why the fuck do all of the major distros have donation pages, and shops, and foundations, and all of the other things that generate money for a handful of people? Stop fucking acting like mainstream Linux distros are still Slackware equivalent one-man operations. That's horseshit and you fucking know it.
To help for whatever, but they’re donations, not selling you anything, not there for profit.
Not every distro, not even every mainstream distro, has this. And not every one of these things is necessarily there to make a profit over being a simple donation.
If you think accepting donation necessarily means wanting to make a profit then you might not be the brightest star in the sky
respectful counterpoint: marketshare is important, especially if we want to get more users to use ethical softwares instead of corporate controlled proprietary messes.
that doesn’t mean this particular issue needs to adapt to a Windows-style approach (and in fact it already can with flatpakref files, AppImages, etc.), but dismissing accessibility to people unfamiliar with Linux or dismissing having a goal of increasing Linux usage is harmful to the longevity of desktop Linux in society, and harmful to the goal of competing with the monopolistic, proprietary platforms that currently dominate.
There’s distros aimed at newbies. Maybe these distros should ship with a small, quick, idiot-proof tutorial saying (with fancy images too) “hey don’t do this, do this instead” “if you need to do this you can do so like this” and some common troubleshooting but you’d still have some folks who refuse to listen and do something that breaks their system. And we as a community should only tell noobs to use one or two distros like Linux Mint, at most a few other options in case someone needs something more specific. But aside from these distros not every distro should aim for larger marketshares, in fact some are probably better left with low marketshares (for desktop users anyways).
Also, it is impossible to have a system that doesn’t have problems at some point and users shouldn’t expect to not run into issues and they should be willing to at least try and look up a solution, and this doesn’t go just for Linux. The closest to an unbreakable system that I can think of is Debian where the only thing someone uses is Firefox to navigate the safe sites, possibly with uBlock Origin on and the browser is in a flatpak or contained in some way. If someone doesn’t want to learn at least the basics of how to use a computer and how to try to fix your problems they probably shouldn’t be using computers honestly.
Of course there’s issues that aren’t easy to resolve and that’s what forums and IT technicians are for too.
Flatpaks
My man, those repos are vast as shit. The only time you will run into this situation is either if you’re using obscure software (that most newbies won’t use, and then again if you can’t Google a few things you shouldn’t be using obscure software) or stuff that isn’t supported on linux at all.
We aren’t limiting user’s choice. You can do literally everything you want on Linux, just need to know how. You need to know how to do stuff in other OSes too btw, but doesn’t mean they will let you do everything.
Those repos are nowhere near vast as shit. It's trivial to find software that isn't one or more of them, and quite often what is there isn't remotely a recent version.
Removing the ability to install .debs is literally limiting user choice and walling things off so the user doesn't hurt themselves, the same shit that every fucking Linux knob has been squealing about Windows and MacOS doing for decades.
This shows to me that you either didn’t use Linux a lot or don’t understand it.
That is cause you’re using a stable release distro. If you wanted up to date packages you wouldn’t use something based on Debian stable but either a rolling release or semi-rolling like Fedora. Or Flatpaks, appimages, and the many other options you have. Again, not hard stuff to figure out if you are willing to learn. User’s fault.
Nobody is doing that, except maybe Ubuntu, you just need to learn how to do it. And if your distro does it, well wouldn’t you know it there 100000 distros more you can choose. Again if you’re looking for .debs first of all you’re not getting something different than what you’re getting on the official repo, and secondly you’re almost certainly looking for software that is lesser known or has bad support for Linux. In 2023 almost everything someone needs is in the repos of distros like Mint and Debian. Certainly everything for the type of user that is too lazy to Google anything.
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You are using a stable release distro (like ubuntu) and expecting it to act like a rolling release and then get surprised when it doesn’t act like one. Again, if you don’t know what you’re doing and your tools, it ain’t the tool’s fault if shit ain’t working the way you expect it to.
I have been using Linux on a daily basis for years, from mint to arch, and I can tell you haven’t, or more likely haven’t looked up how ot works, by how easily resolved the problems you mentioned would be of you just took the time to Google and inform yourself a bit on the tool you want to use.
You’re the one here who keeps saying Linux sucks because of an Ubuntu-only problem and then complaining about it when people rightly inform you that you can always choose another option that doesn’t have the problem or do things differently to achieve the same result.
Takes 15 minutes or less. And if you don’t want to do that you can do something else like flatpaks, learning how to do what you’re trying to do with the terminal or another way. You have plenty of choice, you just need to stop baby raging, Google a bit and fox your issue.
I can say the exact same response to you saying the Mint repos are small. I am someone who used mint for about 2 years before switching off of it and know people who have used it for as long as it exists and never had to install programs that weren’t some very uncommon/specialized ones from outside the package manager.
The distro removing an option is shitty but if you don’t want to switch to a different distro or do the necessary work to fix it then it is your fault when the problem isn’t magically fixed. This isn’t proprietary shit, you don’t have to beg the company overlord to fix it for you (if they want). Open the browser, look for a solution to your problem that you like, and solve the issue.
I see you’re angry, but it makes you look bad if you let it out on others. Can’t you just discuss this in a civilised manner? I get that you’re edgy and think you’re smarter than the rest of the people, but you’re literally here to complain about a pretty newbie thing to do, so I’d refrain from telling others they’re illiterate.
You don’t need to reinstall your distribution if you want to install DEB files, you just need to find a way that is not broken. Although I’d really recommend reinstalling another distribution if you’re using Ubuntu because they keep doing questionable decisions.
I don’t know what to respond to the rest of your angry rant because it doesn’t contain substance I would be able to respond to. Looking at your other posts it’s probably not worth engaging with you anyway since you’re digressing into angry rants 80% of the time. Hope you can prove me wrong.
I think you’re mixing up “You shouldn’t do this” with “you shouldn’t be able to do this”. The former is common in Linux, the latter is not. No one is advocating for the latter.
Unless you're Ubuntu, apparently.
Ubuntu doesn’t hinder you installing DEB packages, it just hinders you to do so if you’re an idiot.
I like finally seeing someone sane in a Linux sub. Am I dreaming? I love Linux but I hate how unapologetically elitist and blind the fanbase is regarding the egregious user-unfriendliness.
“But it works for me!!” - Yeah, Bob, you just spent 25 hours troubleshooting your network drivers and recompiling their kernel module.
“Just choose the distro you want!!!” - Yeah, Alice, you just spent 5 hours researching the various distributions available.
“I never had any problems!!” - Yeah, Kaitleiynn, you have the exact hardware configuration and OS combo that works perfectly.
No it is not a system issue. User made an assumption and got a slap as this is not windows.
Something that worked last week now does not work.
System issue. Suck less shit at systems and maybe people in general would give a shit about Linux.
You act like problems don’t happen on windows and macOS. But they do happen, and they’re harder to fix than on linux most of the time.
Then again, with immutable distros, Debian, Linux Mint, and others, most of the time if something doesn’t work it is because the user did something to break their system and in those cases put effort into it.
If you are a user that only uses the computer to browse the web, maybe play some games on steam, then you’re unlikely to encounter any issues provided you chose the right distro (Mint would be my recommendation but I hear Fedora Silverblue works nicely). If you’re the kind of user to tinker a lot then you’re likely not a noob and you have no excuse for not looking up what you’re doing.
If you aren’t willing to learn at least the basics of how to do the stuff you want to do then probably you shouldn’t do that stuff, not blame the system for doing what you told it to do.
"Provided you choose the right distro."
Yeah. Windows or MacOS if you actually want to do shit.
EDIT
Just wanted to mention, I've never had an issue with Windows or MacOS that wasn't directly caused by my own personal fuckery. Somehow though, I've had multiple Linux distro installs decide to hose themselves because they didn't update through the precious fucking package manager properly. You know, the thing that everyone is now shitting on users for not using?
The most fun one was whenever a Debian update decided that the right thing to do was move my primary drive into a subfolder in /etc. Yeah. That fucking happened.
So you’re complaining that your system breaks because you’re trying to use it as something that it isn’t, without looking up what you’re doing, and somehow that’s not your fault?
If you try to use a fork as an outlet cleaner don’t complain that the outlet sucks when you’re getting electrocuted.
Hahah not a Linux problem at all
Thats also possible with appstream. But unless the repos go and people just install flatpaks, stuff like this will happen.
Well it was the users who had a problem with their systems being messed up
Yes, by the shit-tier decisions of the distro developers.
You mean their decision to allow GUI installs of debs or what do you mean? The problem was the easy install and since they can’t control what is installed, the people I mentioned just installed whatever random shit not even made for the distro in question. It was a mess.
No, it’s a user problem on both OS’s. Installing random shit from untrustworthy sources is a much more likely source of infection that a zero-day, network-based exploit, etc
Not every OS allows you to simply click on a random installer/eventually (maybe enter a password) and get owned. IOS on phones doesn’t. Android requires you enable untrusted sources.
It sounds like not including a GUI app by default to click-install random packages (outside the package manager) is the extra step for various Linux distros. That’s not a problem, that’s a good idea.
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Github is untrustworthy, anyone can put anything on there. It is up to the end user to determine if a project is safe to use or not.
The default repos for Debain on the other hand are filled only with software that has been checked by at least one competent person, making them inherently safe.
But I thought the open nature of open source meant it was safe because someone has checked all code everywhere!
This shit has become tedious.
No kidding. Open source software is safe because it can come from a trusted source that can be checked by others. Not every open source project is checked but the default repos of Debian, for example, are checked and can be trusted.
All closed source software, on the other hand, is untrustworthy because it can never be checked. This goes for the iOS and Android ecosystems as well. Despite their walled gardens the software is not open and can not be checked, which is why malicious software keeps making it’s way onto phones.
Have you ever heard of malicious code in the Debian repos?
It always was tedious to use computers, people just get a lot of stuff abstracted away by millions of hours of manpower.
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Was it ever trustworthy? What made you think that?
Problem is a lot of closed source software still release their software as .deb or .rpm packages that installs their repos so you can install their software from the software centre.
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I’m telling them that because it is a poor idea. But preferably the system should fix user mistake and behind the scenes just install Discord from repo or flatpak, with option to bypass this behaviour for those who know what they’re doing.
Preferably these software vendors would know to guide users towards proper ways of installing stuff, but that’s not happening.
Tell them to install via flatpak. Spotify, Discord and so on should be available as flatpak via Gnome Software or the KDE software center. NOW on Ubuntu, this is anyone’s guess. I’m guessing there is no flatpak support by default. Ubuntu is doing the linux community a disservice.
Add a GUI desktop entry for that, assign .deb file mimetype to it, bam. A usable experience.
Or just install gdebi.
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If a website stuffed a .deb into your Downloads folder and you click on it, should the default behaviour be to run it? Is there a significant pile of Ubuntu software out there that is unavailable in the apt and snap and flatpak stores? Other stores such as Steam and Epic (Heroic) are easily installable via … starting in your apt/snap/flatpak store.
The default beaviour shouldn’t be to run it, but it also shouldn’t be to tell you that a program that can run it doesn’t exist, when it actually does.
If you want to do it via GUI, default behaviour should be to tell you that for security reasons, installation of deb files from the web is disabled, with a link to the root-accessible setting that enables it (similar to Android, for example).
Well, that marks the first time I’ve seen anyone refer to it as “the apt store.” Thanks, I hate it.
I’m off to download some standards docs from the ieee-shop 👨🔧 🍄
A deb is not an executable. You can’t run it
And neither is a doc file, but most OSes would open up a compatible word processor.
It can install a service that will start automatically after install, so for all intents and purposes, if you click it and enter your sudo password, you might as well have run an executable.
It has pre and post-install scripts. Once you hand it off to dpkg, it can do pretty much anything.
Ubuntu goes full enshitification… Glad I’m back to pure Debian for a long time
Yeah man. I’m on LMDE 6 and SO glad about that. No Ubuntu BS. Just pure Debian with Mint optimizations and desktop.
I’d be very surprised if the Mint team keeps the regular mint releases going instead of just going all in on LMDE
I’ve used plain old Debian since ~2016 and only just tried LMDE this month, it’s really nice! I prefer Gnome but the default LMDE desktop was perfectly usable and clear, and I really like that it walks the user through setting up automatic backups. I would definitely recommend it over Ubuntu now for new users.
For whatever reason, when i tried to fresh install lmde 6 two weeks ago, it absolutely refused to set up grub properly for me. Something in the installation just refused to work, despite reformatting and setting up partitions in both the automatic and manual configurations. Hopefully other new users have a smoother time than i did?
Was it a uefi thing? In the past 10 years the only fail-to-install issues I have had were related to that.
I’ve had that happen on EndeavourOS but it was because of a corrupted ISO. Have you checked checksums?
From what I’ve seen they like to take things slow. However I agree that it’s only a matter of time now. Ubuntu also plans to have the next distro LTS released as both a regular iso and a snap-only read-only version.
In other words two iso’s will be supplied and one will be immutable and every component and library will be all snaps only. This is the future they envision for Ubuntu so Mint will definitely have to move to Debian only eventually.
I thought that perhaps Ubuntu were done with screwing the community after they forced snaps on their users.
Just when I thought, ok that’s it what worse could they do?, then they pull this nonsense!
They really, really don’t want the user to have control of the system do they? They think we are dumb and need a walled garden experience like Apple where you only get apps from Snaps or the repo.
And frankly it’s against the principles of FOSS where the foundation is to protect user freedom.
I moved to Mint when this snaps thing made me feel up. And as soon as LMDE 6 came out I immediately switched to that .
I highly recommend everyone abandon Ubuntu and Fedora - the two Corporation backed distros - and use only 100% independent distros like LMDE or Debian or any of the others.
And if you’re using a distro that is Ubuntu or Fedora based pressure the dev to move to Debian or opensuse. Or any other independent base.
If we don’t take action as a community eventually new users will become accustomed to this BS and will never know what it’s like to use REAL Linux.
What is the problem with Fedora?
Basically it’s Red Hat which is IBM. The same Red Hat that basically making it difficult for the community to make Fedora compatible server OS’.
They consider the community free loaders.
This is basically anti Libre/FOSS in spirit.
So why should we help them improve Fedora, which eventually becomes Red Hat Enterprise, if they aren’t willing to share their server code?
Basically they have zero regard for the Linux community (user’s and Devs)
This was no accident. They want you to install apps via their walled garden snap store.
Which is by almost all means better than downloading a random crap of a package from the web because “that’s how it’s done on wondows”. Seriously, distributing software via repositories is like second most important reason the situation with malware isn’t the same on the desktop Linux market (the first being small market share). And nope, that’s not because Linux is somehow “more secure”, which it isn’t.
Unpopular opinion, I think this should be like this if there exists a snap or a package in the repo for it. Even if this is a bug. Maybe they should make a popup educating users about how they don’t need to download installers. As for apps like discord, I believe there is a well maintained snap package available to install easily from the app center. I can’t seem to find chrome there sadly, but it is on flathub. I hope it gets a package.
I don’t agree with you on this, people are used to install app on other operating systems this way, there is a better way yes I’m not arguing this, but a lot of proprietary software is distributed this way and not on the snap store, and being ubuntu a noob friendly distro make it worse for the averange user to search the internet only to install deb packages instead of providing a user friendly interface!
Yup, I understand that people are going to search for an installer and install it that way. What I am saying is maybe they should direct users to the snap store or something if the package they are trying to install exists on there already. Pretty non intrusive way to make sure they are doing it the right way.
Edit: this is not me advocating for snaps btw. I don’t care what package manager anyone uses, as long as its not bricking your system.
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Local deb packages suck ime.
They keep looking for trouble. Something is going to bite them in the ass one day.