from danielfgom@lemmy.world to linux@lemmy.ml on 30 Sep 2023 13:04
https://lemmy.world/post/6026960
LMDE 6 has been officially released. The big deal about this is that it’s based on the recently released Debian 12 and also that being based on Debian LMDE is 100% community based.
If you’ve been disappointed by what the Linux corporations have been doing lately or don’t like the all-snap future that Ubuntu has opened, then this is the distro for you.
I’m running it as my daily driver and it works exactly like the regular Mint so you don’t lose anything. Clem and team have done a great job, even newbies could use Debian now.
Personally I think LMDE is the future of Linux as Ubuntu goes it’s own way, and this is a good thing for Mint and the Linux community. Let’s get back to community distros and move away from the corps.
EDIT: LMDE is 64bit only. There is no 32bit option.
threaded - newest
Been using mint for a while on my main machine and I’m not keen on doing a reinstall, but the next time I do I’ll definitely be looking at Debian edition.
If you don’t have Nvidia gpu, then LMDE is better. It is slightly snappier and boots slightly faster.
Oh dang. It sucks to hear that my 10 year old GPU is still poorly supported.
I have a very old Nvidia GPU and am on LMDE5. The official legacy driver works fine for me. Can't speak for the open-source one.
Going to assume that LMDE6 will be similar when I get around to upgrading.
Well, the thing is I don’t have Nvidia gpu but it is a general rule since LMDE doesn’t ship with the driver manager as the “regular” Mint does.
That’s because it doesn’t need to use the Ubuntu drivers. I’m pretty sure it’s intentional (if a bit less user friendly). I wish distros could come up with a universal(ish) driver app.
Why would anyone support an end of life gpu lmfao
LMDE has proprietary driver repos afaik.
Yes, for NoVideo.
I just installed it in a VM to check it out, as I’m not a Cinnamon guy usually, and I really like it! I need to try it out on metal and see how it handles games, but so far I’m really happy.
I’m excited to give it a try.
So I’m showi my my extreme age but I remember when Mint was born as a sort of windows-like Ubuntu for easy migration. Has it carved out a reason for existing for folks that don’t want a windows like experience?
It’s just a generally solid, stable, and easy to use distro. I use EndeavourOS nowadays, but when I was first getting started Mint was what I always returned to after spats of distro hopping. As far as it’s primary DE, Cinnamon, it’s less “windows like” and more “not gnome like”. Every DE that isn’t gnome could be called “windows like” in my experience.
More like Cinnamon being GNOME 2.5
Since GNOME 3 changed everything for better or worse.
Mostly worse.
Their interface is familiar to Windows users but so is KDE and many things that aren’t GNOME. Primarily it is the flagship distro for Cinnamon, they put a lot of work into making the user experience seamless and their implementation of Cinnamon especially is much better than other distros that ship it as an option. They also co-founded MATE when GNOME 3 came out and have supported that forever.
Main thing for me is extremely sane defaults, just enough automation to simplify some things without it getting in the way, just enough customization without it being overwhelming or an eyesore (I hate KDE context menus). It’s been very good for getting out of the way so I can focus, I appreciate that it doesn’t have a ton of flying, shiny objects all over the place but still looks good, and I don’t have to add a ton of extensions to get it the way I like.
This. Mint is the only distro I’ve found where I’ve truly never needed the CLI if I didn’t feel like using it.
I tried the beta and liked it. The only issue I ran into was that the MozillaVPN app wasn’t working on debian.
I also had not seen much progress on the Debian version of the app from what I found. I could be wrong as that was my first dip into Debian.
Mullvad is available and I might switch to that at a later time when the motivation strikes me.
I prefer the idea of community driven projects though.
Mullvad works fine on both LMDE and stock mint fwiw
Which Debian version is it based on?
Debian 12. Mentioned in the article/blog
And in the post
Thanks! So much for my reading skills/attention span 😂
Very excited to see this. After having been through the last few Ubuntu versions, they have made some very frustrating decisions that have made the system management side a real pain.
I’ve never had a use for Linux Mint myself, but I’m still happy to see them cut out the middle man and base it directly off of Debian. Hopefully being closer to the source will result in even more upstream contributions.
Oh, no. They consider Ubuntu the best APT base out there, and even after some trouble with Canonical, they insist on basing Mint on Ubuntu. This is a plan B, it came precisely after the differences between Mint and Ubuntu were public, but I can’t find any source of that episode between Canonical and Clemente Lefebvre.
EDIT: Found one.
Ah, my bad. I thought LM was going all in on Debian. Well, I’m glad they’re at least providing the option then.
They want to be able to provide the option should Ubuntu go off the reservation
Big thing about being based on Ubuntu is that the community support is the biggest. Any issue you find, you can google, and there’s a 99% chance there’ll be an answer for Ubuntu which can be applied as-is to Mint.
True, but it’s not like Ubuntu is this unique distribution with very peculiar software. Most of the time, no matter which distro I use, the best reference to solve any problem is the Arch wiki.
I wonder if they’ll ever ditch Ubuntu and release a version based on Debian Sid.
Not Sid, but that’s exactly that Mint LMDE is. Rather than being built on top of Ubuntu, it’s built on top of Debian
Copypasting: (source)
The cautious approach for LMDE5 users: If your system is working fine and there are no especially must-have features in LMDE6, there is almost certainly no rush to upgrade. Take your time.
Make backups. Test backups. Play games. Work. Do things entirely unrelated to the distro.
You could even almost (aaalmost) completely forget about LMDE6 (but do keep an eye on the LM blog).
The Mint team haven't announced an EOL date for LMDE5 yet, but if past dates are anything to go by, it'll be at least 18 months before they pull the plug. Even then, LTS updates might still filter through from Debian proper.
[How many people will actually see this message and how many it actually applies to out of them might well include me and literally one other guy somewhere else on the planet, but if you're that one guy, breathe friend. No rush.]
Debian 11 and thus LMDE 5 have a libvirt bug where libvirt doesn’t properly create config files for apparmor for virtual machines that are imported instead of created on the specific host. You have to recreate the vm definition from scratch, or disable apparmor to start it. Not fixed in Debian backports either.
It’s a niche issue but I’ve been chomping at the bit for LMDE6 for some time.
That sounds like one of the "especially must-have" features I was talking about. Maybe I was thinking about less serious things when I said it (gotta have that shiny new program that only works in 6 or whatever), but it still fits.
Just fucking use debian lmao.
😂 yeah I hear you but I want the up to date Cinnamon desktop and I like how Mint has configured the system.
They’re beating around the bush at this point 😅
You might as well tell others to just use windows at this point.
Edit: Yeah sorry, my point is that freedom is what makes linux linux. I don’t really think you have ever used linux mint before and I don’t want to sound like a white knight for linux mint but you should atleast be a little less condenscending towards a distro that has been among the top distro for beginners to switch and has fulfilled the role of a full OS without ever needing for many like me to dig too deep into linux configs and stuff. Mint’s development towards debian is only a good thing for many users like me because it preserves the future in case of a ubuntu upstream issue, besides freedom is the spirit of linux.
Still no Wayland, right?
Sadly, no :(
Why is this important?
Security and Wayland compositors run better for me. YMMV, of course.
Mint/Cinnamon will probably be the last adopters of Wayland but surely at this point they should be starting to test it?
Mate has some Wayland support just the development died down.
I wonder if I can install this on my late 2011 macbook pro…
Pretty sure you can install it on any Intel based MacBook.
Definitely. I’m assuming that it’s a 64bit CPU, but even if it’s 32bit they’ll have that too
Can anyone tell me if the Debian Testing branch has been stable? I like Debian, and I like rolling release to be more up to date, so I was considering swapping from Fedora.
Either use Stable or Unstable. Testing is actually the most unstable of the three branches, due to how Debian works:
Updated packages are first introduced into Experimental, then into Unstable when they actually build and run. So Unstable is equivalent to Arch’s main branch.
Then they automatically enter Testing after a few weeks without anyone reporting a critical bug.
What this means: Testing is the only branch where the decision over what enters isn’t made by a human.
If someone notices critical bugs in Testing, the packages may be kicked out of Testing again until the bugs are fixed. So Testing is the only branch where packages can simply disappear when you run an update.
It’s also the most insecure branch: When a vulnerability is discovered, the packages in Stable are patched to close it. The packages in Unstable are updated to a new version that closes it. In Testing, the vulnerability stays until the new version eventually migrates down the line again after spending a while in Unstable.
I’ve run Unstable for years. IMO it’s a great rolling release distro with horrible branding.
Thanks for the info! I know what you mean that unstable is similar to Arch, but I know Arch has like a 3 day period or something like that before it hits the default “stable” repo. Is Unstable similar to that, or do they just raw dog it?
Sid is not a rolling release distro, it’s an unstable distro. If you want a rolling release distro, you want something like Arch Linux, OpenSUSE Tumbleweed or OpenMandriva RR.
Unless you know how to deal with problems, go ahead and install Sid. It shouldn’t be a problem if you already know Linux and Debian specifics.
That’s just semantics in my opinion. Debian Sid isn’t meant to be a rolling release distro, but it works perfectly fine as one.
You have to take the same care as with other rolling release distros - actually read the changelogs, don’t automate updates, and type “No” if it wants to remove packages you need. Other than that, I’ve never had any issues, and never heard from anyone whose Sid brakes regularly.
Debian does not agree. They even warn you about packages with unfulfilled dependencies. In my experience, OpenSUSE Tumbleweed does feel like a finished, polished rolling release distro. Sid breaks sometimes, it’s okay for it to get broken. I don’t know your use case but it did for me, especially with some obscure libraries or with very specific versions of scientific ones. It’s not semantics only, Sid is fundamentally designed as an unstable distribution, not as a rolling release one.
But I insist, if it works for you as a rolling release distro, it’s great. I just feel the obligation to warn the others what’s the intention behind Sid.
I’ve only been running Debian testing for a few weeks (hopped from Ubuntu dev), but I believe testing also has a 2 to 10 day period before pulling packages from unstable. Like after 10 days in unstable with no issues it automatically gets moved into testing, with more important updates getting a human moving it earlier.
I use debian 12 unstable and it has been great. No issues so far.
I ran 12 (testing) for the last year and the only issue I had was related to unsupported hardware with a newer laptop.
I would’ve jumped on this instantly, but I finally landed on a Min21 configuration that works well. New laptop => new hardware => need new nvidia driver => need new kernel.
Which kernel does LMDE currently ship with?
6.1 like Debian 12.
I’ll probably give it a go, then, if I need to reinstall.
Backports kernel is available too, currently 6.4.
Oh boy, here I go distro-hopping again.
Just kidding - you can pry Slackware from my cold, dead hands.
Why do you use slackware?
Because it is predictable and doesn’t suck.
It’s more stable than Debian and more simple in design than Arch.
It basically doesn’t do anything, except run your hardware and software, and that’s all an OS should do.
More stable than debian sounds terrifying
And pretty hard to achieve, considering breaking Debian is borderline an endeavour.
I use “stable” not in the sense of “doesn’t break”, but in the sense of “doesn’t change its behaviour”.
Debian is rock solid, but Slackware is the most stable in the sense that it still looks and works pretty much exactly like it did 10-20 years ago.
That lack of dependency management tho…
…is irrelevant due to how Slackware works.
It installs all dependencies for the entire official repo right from the start.
Challenge accepted
Has the package manager improved? Can it automatically handle dependencies?
Slackware works differently than other distros. After a default installation, dependency tracking is pointless because you install its entire repository up front.
If you need something that isn’t in the repository, you’ve got Slackbuilds that work just like Arch’s AUR. Or you can use third party repos with their own package managers, semi-official tools with depedency checking, flatpaks or whatever else you want. The point is, how you manage your packages is your choice. The default package manager is just a helpful bash script.
People wouldn’t be talking about the lack of dependency management of it didn’t cause.some problems somewhere, so where could it be? Third party stuff I guess?
“Slackware has no dependency management” is a meme as old as Debian, and basically the only thing people know about it.
Fact is, you install additional packages from Slackbuilds, and there’s a tool that resolves dependencies for that (slpkg). It’s not officially supported but well-maintained and it works. So in practice, it works the same way as Arch’s AUR (where absolutely everyone uses yay even though it is also not officially supported or recommended).
So, the fact that the default package manager doesn’t resolve dependencies is irrelevant in practice. What is relevant, and an actual valid criticism of Slackware, is that the default installation isn’t minimal or tailored to you, and should’t be changed unless you absolutely know what you’re doing. It gives you a wide variety of software for all kinds of tasks that wasn’t chosen by you, but by benevolent dictator Patrick Volkerding. And his choices are very different from what’s become the de facto Linux standard today (e.g. Calligra instead of LibreOffice).
My take on it is that Slackware is the perfect OS for maybe 100,000 people on earth, and I happen to be one of them.
Would this be analogous to Endeavor OS for Arch?
Yes. The Mint team have done all the work that you normally would have to with Debian, to give you a nice stable, fast and full featured desktop system.
Plus they keep Cinnamon up to date over the years. Even though the Debian base will remain the same (apart from any security patches/important updates) you’ll always have the latest Cinnamon desktop and utilities from Mint like Timeshift, Warpinator etc
Btw Warpinator works like Airdrop. Install the app on your Android, pair to LMDE and you can easily send and receive files and photos between phone and desktop.
How does warpinator compare to kde connect?
KDE Connect is more full featured. It can also show phone notifications on Linux, copy clipboard, screen mirror your android to Linux.
Warpinator is literally just to transfer files wirelessly.
Warpinator is essentially what would happen when you flesh out the “send file” feature of KDE Connect a bit more. It doesn’t cover the rest of KDE Connect.
I would say Mint adds more to Debian than EndeavourOS adds to Arch.
For one thing, Mint has its own DE ( Cinnamon ). You can install this on other distros but it was made for Mint and it is the DE experience out-of-the-box on LMDE.
This begs the question: what sketchy stuff does Linux Mint Normal Edition doing?
Nothing, Linux Mint Debian Edition / LMDE is an officially maintained version of Linux Mint.
Exactly
I still dont understand. Normal Mint isn’t maintained?
Both are maintained. Both are official. LMDE / Linux Mint Debian Edition is an alternative version.
But what’s different???
One is based on Ubuntu, the other is based on Debian.
It’s maintained in case something goes wrong with Ubuntu, or for those who don’t want to use it as the base for Mint.
Ah, I didn’t realize Mint was based on a distro that was based on Debian. Thanks for clarifying.
SteamOS is debian based right? does that mean LMDE will benefit from valve’s commits in some ways mint wouldnt have otherwise?
I thought at least on steamdeck it is more arch based makeuseof.com/key-differences-steamos-and-arch-li…
SteamOS 1 and 2 was Debian based, the new one is arch based
Well, time to try it. Hopefully XFCE runs well; Cinnamon is not to my liking at all.
This is 👍 👌 👍
so what would be the difference between LMDE and Debian with cinnamon DE
Literally the only difference is that regular Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu and LMDE is based on Debian.
So LM will use the Ubuntu repo and any additions to the code Ubuntu made, whereas LMDE will use the Debian repos and their code.
At the moment LMDE actually has a newer kernel (6) than LM (5) and newer apps, but that will change with the next version of Linux Mint when it should catch up.
And finally, LMDE is also available in 32bit as well as 64bit, whereas LM is 64bit only.
Did not answer the question.
They’re pretty much the same to novice users, only differing in packages versions (including the kernel, as OP mentioned).
I am guessing this is kinda the point, to make it as similar as possible, since Linux Mint team is looking to replace its main base to Debian from Ubuntu.
Can someone explain to me how it differs from regular Debian Cinnamon? Is it as secure, with updates and all?
Underneath it’s exactly the same and you will get all the same security updates. However Debian will not release any further updates to the Cinnamon desktop until Debian 13. And they don’t theme it, your get the basic grey version m
Linux Mint Debian Edition will include the latest Cinnamon desktop and it will be continually updated by the Mint team because they are the creators of the Cinnamon desktop. So you’ll likely have a better version of cinnamon on LMDE.
Plus they theme it out of the box. And LMDE includes other Mint utilities like Warpinator and Timeshift. These will also get updated sooner than plain Debian.
And of course you are more likely to get support on Linux Mint compared to Debian
Nice, thanks for the explanation!
I did have really good experiences with LM, notably
But it broke for me. Also it wasnt fully Ubuntu, which was a hassle too.
I wonder why it broke? Did you reach out to support? They would have helped you.
I also used to use full Ubuntu but I’m fed up with the snaps nonsense.
I even went so far as to uninstall the snap system, yet somehow on doing apt update, it freaking re-installed it 🤬
That’s when I understood what Mint was about and why it’s so great.
Moving to LMDE I’ve taken a full step away from Ubuntu all together.
Random screen freezes afaik.
I dont know the exact package Differences between Ubuntu and Debian, but I think LMDE will be pretty outdated soon, right? Ubuntu is also not really bleeding edge but way better. Until they stop packaging APT packages I guess it should be fine?
Random screen freezes sounds like a graphics card issue. Do you have an Nvidia graphics card by any chance because Nvidia doesn’t supply any open source drivers so getting them to work is huge pain on Linux?
Actually LMDE currently has newer packaged and kernel then regular LM because the Ubuntu base is from 22.04 whereas Debian 12 came out with the latest kernel and packages.
For whatever reason Ubuntu never released an LTS this year so Mint has to wait until next year February. I suspect it will use the same kernel and packages as Debian, because it’s an LTS, which never includes the very latest stuff.
So we could be looking at a scenario where both LM and LMDE will have the same kernel and packages for at least one year, until the next Ubuntu LTS (25.04?).
But even though LMDE will have the same kernel and packages for 2 years or so, Cinnamon desktop and the Mint apps will still be updated to the latest as far as I know.
If your need the very latest packages then LM is probably what you should use but if don’t need that and want stability and not having to update often then LMDE is the way to go.
No actually its said to be a typical AMD problem. Mint actually was Thinkpad T430 intel integrated Graphics, and AMD modern mobile graphics.
Ok thanks, so Debian ≈ Ubuntu LTS?
Odd, AMD produce open source drivers…
You could say Debian = Ubuntu LTS, but only for 1 year because Ubuntu normally rehearses a new LTS every year (but not this year for some reason). Debian won’t update for another 2 years at least.
Now if it had
It maaay be a nice option.
Neither of those features are 100% production ready, even on the most cutting edge system.
Even if you are running KDE or GNOME, chances are your apps would still require X.
Why would you want immutable? That would be for either containers or embedded, none of which is Linux Mint’s use case.
If you’re looking to explore these cutting-edge features, Linux Mint is not for you.
Xwayland
Rpm-ostree works perfectly well for many users. Flatpak is not production ready, but if you do background updates and not that often, you can totally just layer everything you want.
Immutable is not cutting edge, is simply a traced, resettable, secure system. You can reset it with one command. But you can also install as many native packages as you want, simply that updating will take a bit longer then. But updates are done in the background, I dont know if by default, but there is a systemd service.
Flatpak is more mature than you’d think. It also seen more adoption than Wayland (not exactly apples to apples…).
Immutable concept may not be new, but the current implementations are. Even the pioneers such as NixOS, Fedora, and openSUSE are still ironing out quirks as we are having this discussion. Even NixOS, the current top leading, is having performance issues.
Linux Mint have snapshot system. It is not perfect (certainly won’t beat immutables), but ot certainly works well for its use cases. Once again, being the latest and greatest is never its use case.
Flatpaks lack:
They are already better in
Never heard of performance issues of immutable OSes. Why should there be.
Linux mints shapshotting works for avoiding errors that happened in between two versions of the OS, during a single update.
If the issue happened over time, or you already updated two times with the error, its useless.
Rpm-ostree allows to:
I think a well-managele system could and should also be possible to do without all that image-creation. Having two seperate systems is not needed if you know exactly whats the difference between your two images.
Wayland probably has more things it lacks. Again, it’s not apples to apples comparison.
The performance is more toward manipulating system packages. Since it’s not supposed to be changed, a new system image tends to get created everytime user makes modification. At least that’s the issue with Nix.
While that rpm-ostree sounds nice, it is not required for Linux Mint’s use case.
Yeah, I don’t think Linux Mint is for you… Perhaps NixOS would fit you better.
Don’t get me wrong, I am interested in the prospect of immutable systems. I just don’t think it is a silver bullet for every problem out there.
I think Wayland is the future. In fact, I’ve been using it as a daily driver. However, it’s still a long way to go until it can truly replace X11. For starter, it has some issues that can be dealbreaker for some people (having all the applications terminated upon crash is one). Also, XFCE, MATE, and all the others got some catching up to do.
You may have your opinion, but there are reasons those two features are not as widely adopted (yet?).
I am already on Fedora Kinoite. Not sure if their immutability model is actually suited for rolling Distros though:
sudo ostree admin cleanup 0. Btw wheel can do rpm-ostree stuff without a password prompt.Its a really superior technology and the best overall solution. I was mind experimenting with an only traced system that is not immutable but uses OSTree to manage updates. Only when something breaks you would create a new clean image, or rebase. As most updates work normally since forever.
Because in the process of generating the image, locally the complete OS is build on every update. Not downloaded. But copied etc. This takes a lot of resources, which works fine on monthly updates like on Android, but not so well on daily rolling updates.
To “Linux mint does not require OStree”. Rpm-ostree or apt-ostree not. But ostree I think yes. It may be stable and all, but what if its not? And you dont want to reinstall everything? There needs to be a way to reset the system to work again. All rpm-ostree does is remove “it works on my machine though” bugs. Its the only thing newcomers should use.
You are not meant to add tons of RPMs to your system, but you can. Updates can be done in the background, no problem. So you could literally “layer” (thats what its called) any huge piece of software, that doesnt work locally. You can add proprietary drivers, install media codecs and all.
Various ways to make media playback work on RPM Firefox
UBlue, and awesome project creating custom OS and Distrobox/Toolbox/Docker/Podman images for things like Arch+AMDGPUpro Drivers for Davinci resolve. They create their custom versions of the distros with patches for Asus, Framework, Surface, and all out of the box, secured modifications that are reproducible
Ublue really shows the potential of rpm-ostree. Use Fedora as base, to kernel mods, layerings, replacements how you like, and ship the “working out of the box” image for exactly your hardware. Its brilliant.
I’m not a fan of the immutable distro and I think it goes against the LM philosophy. The user should always have full control over their system.
They are looking at Wayland but for now X works better and with more applications. Reliability is a top priority for LM so they won’t just change to Wayland and have users systems break.
I’m sure in a few years they’ll have Wayland
You have a lot of control over an immutable system. Linux mint is the noob distro, at least for loots of people. I dont think Cinnamon is really a poweruser desktop, I would see KDE here
It’s considered a noob distro but it is full blown Linux after all so it can easily be used by pro’s as well as noobs.
I like that it gets out the way and let’s you do what you need to do. And it looks good.
After years of distro and DE hopping I understand the appeal of Mint: there’s nothing I need to configure, it’s reliable, it’s fast, lighter than Gnome, more legible than KDE and has useful extras like Warpinator and Timeshift.
I quite like the app choices too and only need to install a handful of apps and only remove 3 of the installed apps: Rhythmbox, Thunderbird and Libre office.
“LMDE would be nicer if it was Fedora Silverblue”
At first I read it as “completely based” and wondered whether LMDE is also red pilled.
When I heard LMDE was goated, I wondered if it was with or without the sauce.
The question everyone is thinking, but no one will ask: will I be able to install Snap packages on it? Hahahhaha kidding.
I’ve been eagerly awaiting this release, and will likely replace my OpenSuse with this. I really like OpenSuse, but have some software needs that are only available on dep packages.
Hahahaha…good one! 😂
That’s a good point - that’s the same reason I also prefer to use a Debian based distro, all non repo software is most likely going to be available as a deb.
How’s the performance / system requirements compared to Debian 12 with xfce? I’m on pretty old hardware and lower system requirements was why I installed Debian over Ubuntu. I don’t see CPU mentioned in the requirements on that link, just RAM and disk space
Requirements using the standard Cinnamon desktop are 2GB RAM minimum and 20GB disk space. On idle LMDE uses about 900mb RAM without swap. If RAM use increases it will use the swap.
It’s definitely not as light as XFCE so your install will be lighter by quite a bit.
LMDE 6 still has a 32-bit version, probably the last kek