Wine 9.0 is now available (gitlab.winehq.org)
from mr_MADAFAKA@lemmy.ml to linux@lemmy.ml on 16 Jan 2024 21:53
https://lemmy.ml/post/10639839

#linux

threaded - newest

TCB13@lemmy.world on 16 Jan 2024 22:00 next collapse

🎉🎉🎉

Yet another major release that fails do support basic Win32 APIs available since Windows 95 properly.

🎉🎉🎉

dinckelman@lemmy.world on 16 Jan 2024 22:12 next collapse

Instead of leaving snide comments like this, you can use your head to open up an IDE, implement the features you want, and make a pull request. Keep it to yourself

maness300@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 13:27 collapse

Oh no, how dare he have higher standards!

drugo@sh.itjust.works on 16 Jan 2024 22:13 next collapse

“available”

Cool, where’s the code?

SomethingBurger@jlai.lu on 16 Jan 2024 22:25 collapse

Well, it’s out there, but Wine devs can’t look at it.

troyunrau@lemmy.ca on 16 Jan 2024 23:10 collapse

Not without getting sued, no. But you could do a double blind on it. One person reads it and describes it in freeform prose, and another reads the prose then writes code to implement it as described. In the absence of documents describing the implementation details, this can sometimes work as it will avoid the copyright argument.

Still sketchy though, and you’d really have to verify isolation.

moonpiedumplings@programming.dev on 17 Jan 2024 00:52 collapse

you’d really have to verify isolation.

What if they live streamed the entire process, like on twitch?

troyunrau@lemmy.ca on 17 Jan 2024 01:04 collapse

Still difficult in another sense. The person who was reading the code live on twitch or whatever, could never in the future work on wine. They’d have to commit to long term seperation from the project.

(Plus, they’d probably want to do it anonymously, since they’ve illegally obtained the source code.)

aniki@lemm.ee on 16 Jan 2024 22:19 next collapse

No one ever promised infinite compatibility forever. It’s most certainly NOT a microshit product.

turbowafflz@lemmy.world on 16 Jan 2024 22:53 next collapse

It’s a miracle we have wine at all, reverse engineering an entire operating system isn’t easy. Be grateful for what we have (which is already enough to run a ton of software really well)

TCB13@lemmy.world on 16 Jan 2024 22:56 next collapse

Still ReactOS performs better in basic Win32 APIs
 makes no sense.

AnonTwo@kbin.social on 16 Jan 2024 23:04 next collapse

Hasn't ReactOS been accused of using code that was not reverse-engineered multiple times? If they became too big MS would probably just sue them.

Plasma@lemmy.ml on 16 Jan 2024 23:16 collapse

From what I’ve heard they used some assembly code directly for very low level functions.

TCB13@lemmy.world on 16 Jan 2024 23:18 collapse

As if the Windows XP source code wasn’t leaked already


AnonTwo@kbin.social on 16 Jan 2024 23:23 collapse

That's...not a legal excuse.

In fact that';s an open and shut end to a project if you're caught doing it.

TCB13@lemmy.world on 16 Jan 2024 23:24 collapse

As long as you don’t copy code


mundane@feddit.nu on 17 Jan 2024 08:23 collapse

It’s enough that you have read the code before implementing an alternative to get into legal trouble.

TCB13@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 09:31 collapse

Good luck proving that.

ChairmanMeow@programming.dev on 17 Jan 2024 11:18 next collapse

It’s happened in the past and is easier than you might think.

TCB13@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 11:43 collapse

What happened in the past was lazy developers cutting corners and effetely copying code and thinking that by switching a few variable names and the order of some operators they would get around the problem.

AnonTwo@kbin.social on 17 Jan 2024 15:35 collapse

?? Historically it's been an issue where you need to prove you didn't do it, because otherwise the companies would bury you in legal fees trying to defend yourself. You're like...trying to argue an alternate universe to how this normally plays out.

natsume_shokogami@lemmy.world on 16 Jan 2024 23:36 next collapse

If you want some APIs implemented, make a feature request; you understand what you want

_Sprite@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 03:24 collapse

Unrelated but everytime you end a sentence with an ellipsis I imagine someone’s nerdy youtube rantsona with their arms crossed and a sly grin

TCB13@lemmy.world on 16 Jan 2024 23:19 collapse

reverse engineering an entire operating system isn’t easy

Have you noticed the the NT / Windows XP source code was leaked years ago. There’s isn’t much of a need to “reverse engineering”, it’s just about reading their implementation and providing an alternative implementation that doesn’t copy code


otter@lemmy.ca on 16 Jan 2024 23:29 next collapse

it’s just about reading their implementation and providing an alternative implementation that doesn’t copy code


That sounds difficult though. Didn’t companies have to set up ethics walls to protect against lawsuits for things like that?

TCB13@lemmy.world on 16 Jan 2024 23:40 collapse

Didn’t companies have to set up ethics walls to protect against lawsuits for things like that?

What are you talking about? There’s copyright infringement that when you copy the leaked Windows source code into something like Wine or ReactOS and then there’s reading it to understand what Microsoft did and coming up with an alternative implementation that will provide a compatible API for programs to use. There’s no “gray zone” or ethical BS - it’s either copied or not.

otter@lemmy.ca on 17 Jan 2024 00:44 collapse

What are you talking about?

Ah the term I was looking for was “clean room”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design

See the bit about examples and IBM. While you could probably look, the easiest way to defend against a giant tech company’s legal team is to do the clean room setup

turbowafflz@lemmy.world on 16 Jan 2024 23:51 next collapse

Well, since it’s so easy, go do it.

dario@feddit.it on 17 Jan 2024 00:12 next collapse

Paragraph «Don’t», bullet point number 3: Don’t look at any Microsoft source code. wiki.winehq.org/Clean_Room_Guidelines

TCB13@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 00:20 next collapse

Guess that rule was in place because some people would look at it and proceed to copy it. The rule should be “if you copy code from Microsoft you’ll be kicked from the project and the code removed”. While I see why this is place and what it protect the project from this is also a very big roadblock to the project’s evolution and a clear example of what’s wrong with it and why we still have compatibility issues.

Cqrd@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 17 Jan 2024 01:22 next collapse

Nope, because if you write code and they can prove you were influenced by leaked proprietary code in any way then they will sue the shit out of you and shut you down.

Also see Halt and Catch Fire for a show with this as a plot point. It’s very real though.

OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml on 17 Jan 2024 02:32 collapse

That’s a lot of words to emphasize you don’t understand copyright law

RubberElectrons@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 05:37 next collapse

Succinctly.

maness300@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 13:26 collapse

If only there were ways to subvert copyright law


maness300@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 13:26 collapse

Lol.

Imagine shooting yourselves in the foot like this.

neo@lemmy.comfysnug.space on 17 Jan 2024 02:03 collapse

They are legally not allowed to touch it.

troyunrau@lemmy.ca on 16 Jan 2024 23:11 next collapse

Ask for a refund

TCB13@lemmy.world on 16 Jan 2024 23:17 collapse

Too bad time isn’t refundable. Free software is only free if you don’t factor in the time you spend making it work.

troyunrau@lemmy.ca on 16 Jan 2024 23:25 next collapse

Wow, you’re the most entitled user of free software I’ve met in a while. Just buy a windows license next time.

TCB13@lemmy.world on 16 Jan 2024 23:38 next collapse

Well at least I’m not here perpetuating the delusion that desktop Linux desktop is as user-friendly and productive for every use-case as Windows and macOS are. If one lives in a bubble and doesn’t to collaborate with others then native Linux apps might work and might even deliver a decent workflow. Once collaboration with Windows/Mac users is required then it’s game over – the “alternatives” aren’t just up to it.

Windows licenses are cheap and things work out of the box. Software runs fine, all vendors support whatever you’re trying to do and you’re productive from day zero. Sure, there are annoyances from time to time, but they’re way fewer and simpler to deal with than the hoops you’ve to go through to get a minimal and viable/productive Linux desktop experience.

It all comes down to a question of how much time (days? months?) you want to spend fixing things on Linux that simply work out of the box under Windows for a minimal fee. Buy a Windows license and spend the time you would’ve spent dealing with Linux issues doing your actual job and you’ll, most likely, get a better ROI.

Just buy a windows license next time.

Here’s the thing, I can get a legit Windows license by various means. I don’t need to go into microsoft.com and get it for 300$, a second hand windows machine with an old i5 CPU will sell for 50$ and that includes a valid Windows license. Computers selling on retail stores also include a Windows license, students can get them for free etc. what else?

[deleted] on 17 Jan 2024 00:11 next collapse

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TCB13@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 00:22 collapse

Oh yes, I value and like Linux a LOT
 just not for desktop as it doesn’t deliver as everyone says it does. To be fair I believe that only someone who values Linux as much as I do would be comfortable to criticize what’s wrong with it.

[deleted] on 17 Jan 2024 00:23 collapse

.

TCB13@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 00:26 collapse

Well I can’t spend all my time trying to fix ridiculous issues that would’ve been fixed by now if people had the balls to look at Windows XP source code


[deleted] on 17 Jan 2024 00:27 collapse

.

TCB13@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 00:30 collapse

<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/68158a59-d3e5-45b5-8d29-d74c07b085f4.webp">

lemmy_user_838586@lemmy.ml on 17 Jan 2024 00:34 collapse

C’mon, keep doing it!

TCB13@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 00:37 collapse

Guess not, we’re just wasting lemmy’s resources :P

lemmy_user_838586@lemmy.ml on 17 Jan 2024 00:38 collapse

Noo, keep going man, I got an apt-get error you need to waste time fixing for me

kurwa@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 05:16 next collapse

You’re doing something worse, complaining about something that no one really does. The average Linux user doesn’t want the average computer user to install Arch Linux. Stop spamming this garbage.

uzay@infosec.pub on 17 Jan 2024 11:28 collapse

Well at least I’m not here perpetuating the delusion that desktop Linux desktop is as user-friendly and productive for every use-case as Windows and macOS are.

Wait, are you saying Windows and macOS are user-friendly and productive for every use-case? That’s hilarious!

maness300@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 13:28 collapse

Since when is having standards being ‘entitled’?

Just because something is free doesn’t mean it has to be janky.

maness300@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 13:27 collapse

So true.

UnsavoryMollusk@lemmy.world on 16 Jan 2024 23:17 next collapse

Which one? Am curious since I worked with the winapi for a long time.

OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml on 17 Jan 2024 02:32 next collapse

Sorry, I missed the part where you submitted an MR

neo@lemmy.comfysnug.space on 17 Jan 2024 02:03 collapse

Then perhaps you can open a pull request?

SomethingBurger@jlai.lu on 16 Jan 2024 22:26 next collapse

All modules that call a Unix library contain WoW64 thunks to enable calling the 64-bit Unix library from 32-bit PE code. This means that it is possible to run 32-bit Windows applications on a purely 64-bit Unix installation. This is called the new WoW64 mode, as opposed to the old WoW64 mode where 32-bit applications run inside a 32-bit Unix process.

🩀🩀🩀

henfredemars@infosec.pub on 17 Jan 2024 00:03 next collapse

Come on Steam, show those 32-bit libs the door!

Not the political kind. The shared object kind.

VinesNFluff@pawb.social on 18 Jan 2024 12:13 collapse

Ok but now I am curious what the difference between 32 and 64 bit liberals would be

5714@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 18 Jan 2024 13:10 collapse

Since they have longer words, 64-bit liberals would be more intellectual than 32-bit liberals. 32-bit liberals also have a term limit in 14 years.

BlanK0@lemmy.ml on 17 Jan 2024 00:37 next collapse

So in the future no need to install 32 bit packages of wine in a 64 system??? 👀

OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml on 17 Jan 2024 02:31 collapse

Correcto. Which means Steam will probably drop 32 bit libs soon. Which means Ubuntu will stop shipping 32 libs. The era is truly coming to an end

StefanT@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 07:25 collapse

Let’s call it “soonish”. The old proton versions still need 32 bit libs if they do not backport the feature.

OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml on 17 Jan 2024 08:16 collapse

Old Proton builds probably won’t backport this (unless it’s completely isolated, idk the code layout of Wine). But are old Proton builds still necessary? Occasionally there’s regressions, but are there really any games that require like a 2 year old Proton build?

addie@feddit.uk on 17 Jan 2024 13:19 next collapse

There are, but it’s complicated. Doom (2016) for instance - it doesn’t handle the very large Vulkan swap chain that’s possible on some modern graphics cards, crashes on start-up. Someone patched Proton around that time so that Doom would start; the patch was later reverted since it broke other games. Other games based off of that engine - couple of Wolfensteins, Doom Eternal - have the problem fixed in the binaries, and so run on up-to-date Proton, but depending on your hardware, only a few specific, old, versions of Proton, will do for Doom.

Regressions get fixed - that’s okay. Buggy behaviour which depended on regressions that got fixed - that’s a problem.

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 18 Jan 2024 16:23 collapse

quite a few games need old proton IME

not many, but enough to make a difference.

Vash63@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 01:09 next collapse

What does this have to do with rust?

bruhduh@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 20:51 collapse

X86 to arm will become easier with this as box64 could handle everything now

CalcProgrammer1@lemmy.ml on 18 Jan 2024 17:13 collapse

Does this change run the 32-bit .exe using x86_64 instructions? From the description it just sounds like it allows 64-bit Linux libraries to be used in place of 32-bit ones, but that the Windows layer still operates in native 32-bit mode. This means there is still a need to emulate 32-bit x86 instructions which I don’t think box64 can do at this time (x86_32 translates to arm32 with box86, x86_64 translates to arm64 with box64). If box86 could translate x86_32 to arm64 then this might work as Wine would handle the conversion between 32 and 64 bit addressing and argument passing into the libraries but I’m not familiar with the inner workings there.

bruhduh@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 18:47 collapse

Thanks for correction, not everything, but more

moon@lemmy.cafe on 16 Jan 2024 22:50 next collapse

codeweavers the true gigachad of Linux

they managed to make their anti-microsoft crusade a sustainable and profitable venture

henfredemars@infosec.pub on 17 Jan 2024 00:05 next collapse

Heavy: killing you is full-time job now!

fossphi@lemm.ee on 17 Jan 2024 00:30 collapse

Them and also collabora seem to be doing an amazing job!

jackpot@lemmy.ml on 18 Jan 2024 13:35 collapse

difference between collabora anf libreoffice?

fossphi@lemm.ee on 18 Jan 2024 13:43 collapse

If you meant onlyoffice, then I think it promises better compatibility with ms office stuff and also itsinterface is closer to it, compared to libreoffice.

jackpot@lemmy.ml on 18 Jan 2024 14:07 collapse

wait does collobora do more than onlyoffice? and if so why do many linux distribuitions pack libreofficd and not onlyoffice

fossphi@lemm.ee on 18 Jan 2024 14:21 collapse

Maybe there’s some confusion here.

Collabora is a company, they funded some work on OnlyOffice which is a FOSS office suite like LibreOffice. I think they also worked on making it web hostable like Google docs (through nextcloud?)

Edit: Apparently now there’s also collabora office suite?

OnlyOffice and LibreOffice are both very good. The former promises better compatibility with ms office files and has an easier interface imo. LibreOffice seems way more featureful

As for why fewer distros have onlyoffice in their repository, maybe because it’s relatively newer? Anyway, it’s available through flatpak and that’s how I use it. I haven’t tried Collabora online stuff

yianiris@kafeneio.social on 18 Jan 2024 23:12 collapse

Is abiword foss?
It is the most reasonable of editors/wp I have found, LO gives me a headache looking at 1000 menus/items.
The gtk2 version is stable as a rock, despite of some bad wrap it got last few years.

@fossphi @jackpot

UNWILLING_PARTICIPANT@sh.itjust.works on 16 Jan 2024 23:28 next collapse

Wine nine you say? 🧐

autokludge@programming.dev on 17 Jan 2024 05:32 next collapse

Wine-ine-oh

aksdb@feddit.de on 17 Jan 2024 08:47 collapse

They should have code-named this release “Brooklyn”.

Molecular0079@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 16:51 collapse

WINE NINE!

yianiris@kafeneio.social on 16 Jan 2024 23:33 next collapse

There is nothing "worth" running in wine, but it is good to know it exists, just to spite those choosing binary blobs.

@mr_MADAFAKA

henfredemars@infosec.pub on 17 Jan 2024 00:20 next collapse

How about this then. While your neighbors are using wine, it attracts more commercial attention to develop the open source projects that you do actually use. It’s so impactful that you measurably benefit directly from its contributions, like optimizations to the Linux kernel.

You don’t have to agree with it, but you cannot deny the increased investment in open source projects it causes.

For a painfully blatant example see: Steam Deck.

Also for the binary blob purists, how do you feel about all that closed source firmware underpinning your pure world? Isn’t it practically impossible to get completely open source firmware down to the silicon? And even then, do you trust the silicon? Are you running everything on FPGAs?

Adanisi@lemmy.zip on 18 Jan 2024 11:08 collapse

Hi! “Binary blob purist” here! Yes, it bothers us that so much firmware is proprietary, but we are working to fix that :).

It is possible to have fully free firmware on certain select devices.

The silicon is unchangeable, much like a chair is unchangeable. So being concerned about changing it isn’t really productive. But, RISCV looks promising and a good remedy to the issue of not knowing what it does.

FPGAs would be nice but they aren’t powerful enough yet.

But, at the same time, unless the silicon can make outside connections itself or modify behaviour (a la Intel ME), or has been updated with what is essentially software baked into it that can change it’s behaviour on the fly, I’d say it can be trusted to do the computing you tell it to do and nothing more (again, excluding those processors where we know that it doesn’t like those with the ME).

OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml on 17 Jan 2024 02:31 next collapse

Dunno fam, I like LAN partying 2001 games with old friends during our biannual meetups.

dandroid@dandroid.app on 17 Jan 2024 02:47 collapse

As a Linux gamer, I run just about everything in wine since proton uses wine.

domi@lemmy.secnd.me on 17 Jan 2024 08:30 collapse

I even run native games through Proton at this point since many native builds don’t work properly.

dandroid@dandroid.app on 17 Jan 2024 15:58 collapse

I have done that before as well. I had a native game that randomly stopped working after a borked update or something. I downloaded the proton version instead, and it worked perfectly.

marlowe221@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 03:50 collapse

Honestly, I don’t even try native versions (when they exist) for most games. I go straight to Proton or Lutris.

sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works on 16 Jan 2024 23:39 next collapse

Finally, a version that rhymes.

bitcrafter@programming.dev on 17 Jan 2024 12:57 next collapse

A truly fantastic update for our times!

taladar@sh.itjust.works on 17 Jan 2024 13:37 collapse

Wine is not an emulniner?

heartfelthumburger@sopuli.xyz on 17 Jan 2024 06:19 next collapse

Finally, native Wayland support! Looking forward to when proton is updated with this. Good job to all the developers!

Confused_Emus@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 08:08 next collapse

Sorry if this is a dumb question, I’m still very new to Linux. I have Wine 8 installed, currently just to run one application for one of my games. Should I bother to update to 9 if my current setup is working? I’m still adjusting to the FOSS environment and haven’t quite figured out whether or not I should always update to the latest and greatest just because I can.

mundane@feddit.nu on 17 Jan 2024 08:18 next collapse

If it works and you are still figuring things out, I suggest not taking specific action right now. Use your package manager to keep your system up to date and it will deal with this in due time.

version_unsorted@lemmy.ml on 17 Jan 2024 10:06 collapse

A lot of the time the version of wine will cause issues with the application, so if you have something working, stick with it.

It would be worthwhile to look into a wine prefix manager like lutris or bottles for gaming. Regular apps can benefit also, but I am not up to speed on anything not for gaming.

Confused_Emus@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 19:20 collapse

Thanks for the advice! The application I’m using in Wine is Elite Dangerous Market Connector, nota game itself but a small helper app for the Elite Dangerous game. According to the git page, you can get it running from source with Python, but I wasn’t quite skilled enough to get that working.

As far as my actual games go, those seem to all run fine through Steam/Heroic Games Launcher with Proton GE edition, which as I understand it incorporates Wine somehow
? I’m not sure of the specifics, but I assumed Wine in that context would get updated with Proton eventually.

Clearwater@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 2024 19:39 next collapse

As a heads up, EDMC runs natively on Linux well, or at least it did the last time I used it. See github.com/EDCD/
/Installation-&amp;-Setup#linux-


Since you’ve got it running in wine just fine, I personally wouldn’t change anything, but if you have issues in the future, you can try that.

Confused_Emus@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 04:15 collapse

Right, those are the instructions I tried to follow, but had issues in the “running from source” process. I did eventually get it running, but I’d get errors and nothing would work once I tried to start adding the plugins I wanted.

[deleted] on 18 Jan 2024 04:18 next collapse

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Confused_Emus@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 04:21 collapse

o7 Fly dangerously!

version_unsorted@lemmy.ml on 18 Jan 2024 09:58 collapse

There appears to be a flatpak for edmc, maybe that would be easier than using wine?

flathub.org/apps/io.edcd.EDMarketConnector

Confused_Emus@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 16:19 collapse

Ah, nifty. I may check that out then. Thanks!

FluffyPotato@lemm.ee on 17 Jan 2024 13:17 next collapse

Ooo, native Wayland support, now only about half my software will be running through xwayland once Proton is updated as well.

azvasKvklenko@sh.itjust.works on 19 Jan 2024 11:53 collapse

Dont hold your breath. It’s just initial support. It’s still opt-in and I can’t see Valve using it with Proton by default unless they start supporting native Wayland clients in Gamescope

kugmo@sh.itjust.works on 17 Jan 2024 20:29 next collapse

The fact that I don’t have to deal with lib32-gst-plugins-ugly/bad/ect is amazing, but I’ll have to keep 32 bit libraries for Team Fortress 2 and other online Source games.

theangryseal@lemmy.world on 18 Jan 2024 13:47 collapse

Should I not be playing the native Linux version? Or am I just an idiot who doesn’t understand how the game works?

kugmo@sh.itjust.works on 18 Jan 2024 15:32 collapse

Pretty sure TF2’s VAC only works on the Linux version, otherwise it kicks you out when you try to join a match.

cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 18 Jan 2024 12:18 collapse

linda belcher alrightttttttt