from eugenia@lemmy.ml to linux@lemmy.ml on 24 Aug 12:45
https://lemmy.ml/post/35143077
I’m a Linux user since 1998 (my main desktop PC runs Debian), however I do have a couple of Macs around because I love their hardware (not so much the software though). In fact, I have three old MacBook Airs (mid-2011, 2012, 2015), all running Linux. The moment I got them, I erased MacOS and installed Linux pronto!
But my main laptop is a MacBook Air M1 with MacOS because it’s much faster than these older Intel-based MacBook Airs. Modern web browsing and video editing requires a lot of processing power.
So, I want to move to have my main laptop running Linux too. I DON’T want to install Asahi Linux on my M1, because I don’t consider it a proper solution for my needs (I want to run Resolve, you see, and most foss apps that I use would need recompiling). Also, I don’t like that Asahi is dependent on MacOS to exist, because you can’t boot with a usb to install it.
My issue is that I can’t find ANYTHING on the PC market that is as slick or full featured as a MacBook Air (minus its limited ports). What I need is this:
-
Screen no larger than 13.3" inches, Full HD at least, preferably good color gamut (but not a must). I still need the laptop to be portable though. Basically, I’m not even asking for HDR, as the MacBook Air features.
-
Keyboard to have backlight, without the numpad (I hate these laptops where the touchpad is off center).
-
The touchpad needs to be glass or of equivalent feel. The Apple touchpads slide/glide with ease. I find every PC touchpad I’ve used so far to be “sticky”. My finger on some Chromebooks and Dell/Lenovo laptops is doing a “grrrkkk, grrrkkkk” when I slide my finger! There’s something special about Apple’s touchpads, I dunno.
-
Intel 13th+ gen CPU, with passmark points over 17,000 on multi-threading. My M1 scores about 12,000 points, and it’s 5 years old. So obviously I’d need something faster than what I have now.
-
Intel GPU (no AMD or Nvidia please, I need Intel’s superior video decoding abilities). On a Mac that isn’t a problem, because Apple does support these 10bit 4:2:2 codecs I need, with hardware acceleration. But on the PC side, only Intel provides good support for these without headaches (only the newest nvidias support that, but I don’t want to use Nvidia for too many reasons – AMD is a disaster on that video front btw). I don’t play 3D games.
-
I need speakers that sound good. Every single PC laptop I’ve tried, had the worst sound ever. I need it to be hear-able on YouTube and not sound as if you’re listening via a can. I bought a Thinkpad x280 a few months ago and I can’t use it because its speakers are so bad! DELL (from 5 years ago that I tried) aren’t better either.
-
I need a (supported) fingerprint reader!
-
32 GB of RAM.
-
1 TB of storage.
-
Below a $1800 price tag. That’s the price I can get with a MacBook Air for all that.
Now, you might think that “well, it seems that you just want a new MacBook”, but that’s not true. I want a PC laptop so I can run Debian Linux instead of MacOS. But I need it to be a laptop that is “proper” by my own standards. The quality of the interaction between my palms, fingers, eyes and PC laptops IS NOT the same as with any Apple laptop I’ve ever used. The reason people buy Apple hardware is NOT because “MacOSX is lickable” (as it was suggested many years ago by Jobs). I’ve actually researched the “why”. It’s because the INTERACTION of your senses and the laptop’s design/quality FITS. It’s like a glove for one another. It’s difficult to explain but I know it now to be true. It was never MacOSX itself (although MacOSX’s gui smoothness helps the overall experience).
So the question is: am I missing that special, Linux-compatible, PC laptop somewhere? If you know that such a laptop exists, please reply with a link. I’ll buy it in a heartbeat.
This is a serious post btw. I spent the whole weekend trying to find that mythical PC laptop, and I can’t. I’m frustrated.
EDIT: I might end up with the Framework 13. Not 100% what I’m after, but probably the best solution right now.
EDIT 2: I bought a DELL 5640 16" laptop, 32 GB RAM, i7 cpu, that comes with Linux pre-installed (so I know it’s compatible). It ticks all my boxes except the size and the trackpad being off center. Oh well.
threaded - newest
I’ve been loving my Framework
How’s the build quality compared to other brands, particularly macbooks? I haven’t found a brand with even remotely the same build quality as a macbook.
I’m sure you have, I spec’ed one earlier today. But I can’t find ANYWHERE in their docs or spec pages if it has a fingerprint reader or not. And when spec’ed similarly, it was more expensive than a macbook air ($2065 compared to $1800). And I still don’t know about the quality of its trackpad or speakers.
It has a fingerprint reader.
all of them do?
Except the 12 unfortunately
I have a first gen, and it does. There was some coding stickiness, and (i haven’t been able to solve) a key that the fingerprint reader doesn’t get access too. The effect is that it logs you in and then you get a pop-up that asks for your system password (though you can start using right away). I’m only a junior level coder though, ans just haven’t solved it- others might have.
Imo, the framework might mostly meet your spec. I came from a 2012 mac and the build quality and feel are the best I’ve seen in a non-apple laptop.
One comment on audio, I find mine can be tinny, verging in crappy. This may have been upgraded in more recent models.
Finally, I know you don’t want AMD, but they have an AMD AI motherboard that I thought looked very interesting, at least for complex processing. Perhaps it will be of value to explore further? Just a thought.
Happy shopping! :)
In the specs for the Laptop 13, it says:
Same for the 16, but not the 12.
I have a 16, not a 13, but:
Framework laptops are expensive, but you buy repairability and upgradability. A lot of parts have already been improved in the 5(?) years the FW13 has been around.
Confirmed my 13 fingerprint reader works on Arch
The framework 13 definitely has a fingerprint reader. Top right corner power button, just like a Mac.
frame.work/products/fingerprint-reader-kit?v=FRAN…
Just as usable as the one on my old M2 Pro work laptop too.
Fwiw, I did the DIY and brought my own 32gb of ram and 2TB nvme to keep the costs down a bit.
My first gen Framework 13: Fingerprint reader, check! (Fedora KDE). Screen, ports, performance, check! Sound, WAY better than my ThinkPad. Touchpad… cough cough
I have a Framework 13 and I’m pretty thrilled with it. I’m happy with the trackpad and the speakers. It wouldn’t surprise me if a modern MacBook’s are better but I’m satisfied just the same.
@eugenia I had semi requirement of requirements. Longtime MAC user, most recent 2019 intel MBPro. Loved the hardware but just couldn’t stomach macOS anymore or Apple in general. I have dual boot on an older 10th gen intel HP, it serves me well but the battery sucks and Gpu is not that great. I’m saving up for a star labs or framework. I want new hardware but I despise the thought of buying a Co-Pilot infused machine.
You want a MacBook. Apple has always made fantastic hardware. If you’re not willing to compromise, you’re stuck with macs.
Example, literally nobody else makes a trackpad like that.
.
Thank you, I think this puts it well. I’m not sure yet if I want to compromise or not, to be honest. I was hoping there’s a well-designed PC laptop out there.
In fact, 2 years ago I bought a levovo (16,000 passmark points, touchscreen, unfortunately large). I thought “ok, I’ll compromise”. But the moment my fingers touched the touchpad, I just couldn’t use it. It was just terrible. Sticky, and NOWHERE to disable the terrible tap-n-drag (I had left it with Windows11 back then).
That laptop now belongs to my niece. I just gave it away (and it was our fastest machine at our house at the time!).
If you can find a laptop that you like, you could replace the trackpad with a glass one: reddit.com/…/ive_just_changed_my_plastic_touchpad…
Sorry if I’m wrong, but I’m guessing the problem you have is:
consider using a trackpoint instead of a touchpad, that way you don’t have a point of comparison for it to “feel worse” (trackpoint is superior anyway)
i have the same kinda thing with not wanting to give up my thinkpad keyboard, and ofc i don’t want a modern shitty laptop keyboard but I’ll probably have to swallow it some day
There’s three threads recommending framework 13. I commented in one. I actually own a new 13 with all the latest stuff. It comes close, but it’s not a Mac.
The trackpad works really good except it has a lot of play in it - it’s annoying.
I’ve seen better screens. Yes I have the newest one, no it’s not terrible - but there’s better out there.
The speakers are just ok. Not bad, just ok.
The 13 craftsmanship wise is amazing. My father in law just bought the 16. That one has fit issues with the trackpad and the spacers on either side of it.
Fingerprint readers on both and they work great. No touchscreen.
Battery life is good. Macs are better. My 13 goes about 6-7 hours of continual “normal use”. If I’m using teams for a video call, it’s significantly less - maybe 3 hours. Games - depends on the game but that can drain it in a couple of hours. You cannot under any circumstances go an entire day+ of continuous use without charging.
They are both fantastic linux machines (frameworks) and I highly recommend them. But the hardware is not Mac perfect despite what others say. Just trying to be real here - sounds like you have high expectations and I’d hate for you to buy an expensive laptop and be dissatisfied.
What model Thinkpad was it? Just curious.
Part of me wants to plug Thinkpad E16 as the cheapest new laptop you can get away with, but if the trackpad is the same one that drives you insane. Honestly, I don’t really care about the trackpad because I exclusively use Trackpoint.
Also, I would call the speakers mediocre, but honestly, I rarely listen to audio on my laptop, so they may be total crap.
afaik the major pc laptop vendors, dell, lenovo, hp, ms surface… all have at least some models now with glass or haptic trackpad.
I feel like I’m in the same boat. I don’t have a solution, just wanted to say I understand your perspective.
I’ve completely ditched Microsoft from my life and I’d love to ditch Apple too, but there’s just nothing on the market I’ve seen which matches the build and usability of macbook hardware.
With the old Intel macs it was simple enough to run Linux but now with Apple Silicon it’s not on the cards. I love what the Asahi team have been doing and I hope they keep doing it, but it’s not ready for primetime yet.
And so I’ve reached the same annoying conclusion - for the moment I’m stuck with Mac, and therefore stuck with macos too.
Thank you, I needed to hear that…
I understand your feeling as I like the Apple classy touch and would love to find it elsewhere.
I guess you’re gonna have to compromise on something as I don’t know about any laptop bring all of these things.
You can confirm a Framework 13 with an Intel Ultra 7 155h (passmark score of over 21k) with 32GB Ram and 1TB of storage for under $1500.
I’m in Greece. The price it gives me as an absolute minimum for that spec (plus power adapter, etc) is 1707 euros. And I added the better screen, to match the macbook air, plus the usb adapters (it has four slots). Then the price ballooned to $2050 euros.
Are you pricing it as supplied by Framework or the DIY where you can bring your own separately purchased RAM and storage? That could bring the price down. And you can start small and grow it later. And repair it if things go wrong. If you really want a Linux laptop I think DIY framework is the best option you’re going to get at the moment due to the repairability and sustainability. I think the trackpad is perfectly fine. I use headphones on a laptop so I barely remember what the speakers sound like. Or just stick with Apple if you prioritize hardware feel. That’s perfectly valid.
I would be happy to pay someone more money for a linux device than to apple
I know they are working on it here is a status page and mailing list wiki.debian.org/Teams/Bananas
Apple hardware may piss off in my world, glad it works for you but claiming some universal UX superiority is very silly.
I can’t stand the keyboard layout, the touchpad, the case shape, the crummy ports, I really dislike it all.
Admit you’re very picky and just want Apple because it fits your specific desires; that is fine.
Dell XPS 13 checks all your boxes except good speakers.
I have the XPS 15 9510 model. Intel 13th gen i7, backlit keyboard, great trackpad, sleek design. It came with 16GB ram but I replaced with 32.
I bought it “refurb” on eBay last May SPECIFICALLY because I wanted the most Mac-like PC. Running Arch Linux from day one and it’s been rock solid and super fast. The speakers aren’t great and the mic is pretty bad. But I usually use headphones or external speakers when docked.
I honestly am very happy with it and it was only like $550.
I spent a bunch of time before this comparing new computers; between Thinkbooks, Framework, Tuxedo, XPS. In the end I decided what I wanted didn’t require it to be new. I was only concerned about degraded battery but I can replace that myself when the time comes.
I don’t want to plug the seller but they’re constantly selling these on eBay so you’ll probably see them if you search.
Side note I disabled the NVIDIA GPU and only use the Intel iGPU which has saved a lot of battery.
This is very useful, thank you. I will investigate!
btw, can you really replace the ssd/ram on these xps 13s? I found one afor $1700, and in greece they ask for $2500 if you spec it with 32gb of ram. But if I can replace it myself easily, that would be nice.
Yes SSD and RAM are simple to replace. There are two SSD NVME slots in fact, and only one is used by default so you can add another.
Second the XPS, I have a 9310 and I’m super happy with it! The touchpad isn’t glass like though but I personally like it
Unfortunately I believe Apple hardware is unsurpassed when it comes to solid builds, care into details, functionalities and beautiful appearances.
I’ve been using Linux for over 20 years, never had problems making my desktops look good and work fine with the right cases and components, but laptops? meh
Only once in 20 years I found one that I like aesthetically and has all the compatible hardware (full Intel only), I got it at half the price because they weren’t making it anymore…
I bought a refirb Chromebook with an Intel CPU for $150 and put Debian on it.
Its a piece of shit, but I feel like a technology racoon. Its also lightweight. I do my homework on it.
Speakers don’t work tho, but it’s OK thats what headphones are for.
You could just go cheap until u find something perfect.
I already have 5 laptops. Laptops that range from 2800 passmark points to 5500 points (older Chromebooks usually clock between 1400 and 4000 points, so yours is probably in that range). I use these laptops as testbeds mostly, not as my main laptops for work/browsing. I need something faster than my M1 Macbook Air (which clocks 14,000 points – and that’s already 5 years old). So a 6th refurbished, old, slow laptop won’t do the job.
In fact, funnily enough, I’ve done the same mistake with video cameras back in the day. I was buying cheaper stuff, thinking that one feature here, or one feature there would make out for not buying a more expensive camera. They weren’t enough. I had to wait to 2024 to actually find the video camera that I was looking for in 2011.
Same for phones. Even after the popularization of the iphone and android, I still didn’t like them. I had to wait until about 2018-or-so, to feel that they had matured to the level I envisioned them 15 years earlier!
I guess I have certain ideas on what I want from hardware and anything less doesn’t cut it…
Thinkpad T420
Did you even read the post with my required specs? :)
Refurb models come with i5 processor at 3.5Ghz and 4GB RAM but has another slot you can put another chip into (or replace both with 8GB RAM chips). The processor is also replaceable so you could hit a higher clock speed. Everything in a thinkpad is modular including the screen so you can pretty much do what you want with it.
Edit: Yeah, tbf I skimmed over your spec list. Not sure why the apple hardware or the CPU generation is important, especially for the latter where the clock speed is what really matters. Could probably put 16GB RAM in each slot.
Edit2: X1 Carbon or something from that series would probably match the lightweight requirement although they are less modular. No replacing the CPU.
The CPU generation is important because older ones don’t clock faster than my M1 macbook. If I’m going to buy something new, it better be faster than what I already have. GPU is also important, because before the 11th gen, 4:2:2 10bit video didn’t have video encoding/decoding, which I need. Also the trackpad is terrible (I have an X280 thinkpad), so is its speaker quality afaik. Thinkpads were great laptops for an older generation. I bought one because everyone was raving about them. Except its screen and keyboard, everything else sucks on it. It won’t even support some usb-c chargers (while other laptops don’t have an issue).
I’d be tempted to stick with macOS and get an M3, then run linux in a VM with QEMU or whatever. Given your focus on ergonomics I don’t see any other hardware that will match your expectations.
I understand. BTW, I am running Linux on my M1 macbook with UTM Qemu, and linux is really, really slow under emulation (faster if you run arm versions). Even on M3/M4.
There are a few projects like lima and crossroads (not sure about name, might be crossover) by canonical which create a new user in /home and runs ubuntu “natively” on M series chips.
2025 is the year of the Linux laptop
FW13 seems to check all the boxes. Speakers are not great but usable, and I heard they improved them with the new keyboard that rattles less.
Sounds good, thx!
I have a framework 13 running Linux. It’s fantastic - but it’s not up to the high bar OP has laid out (IMO).
The screen is nice - but I’ve seen nicer. The trackpad works well, but the fit has a little bit to be desired - it’s no apple trackpad. The speakers are ok. Not bad, just ok. It’s also pricey.
If OP can compromise on those things, then yes, it’s probably as close to Mac hardware as he’ll get.
You can vastly improve any laptops speakers with “easy effects” but some peeps have gone to great length to create a profile for the framework laptops:
community.frame.work/t/…/44645
and
github.com/FrameworkComputer/…/easy-effects
Dell Precision 5570
Its what I got from work, its pretty nice quality I have to say.
Usually a functional thinkpad guy, but the screen, trackpad, build, specs, all very good. Keyboard could be better but if you’re coming from a Mac then it will be just fine.
5480 is the 14" apparently.
I own the Latitude 5480 from 2017. Terrible screen, terrible speaker, heavy… Not sure about newer models.
It definitely doesn’t. What it does require is a bit of RAM, which Apple intentionally sold in insufficient quantities for thousands of dollars, and judging by local classified boards, that’s almost exclusively what everyone bought.
AMD is and has been the superior processor for quite some time now, both in speed and efficiency.
Well…you are severely limiting your options there. I’ve never even seen Intel mobile GPUs, personally.
Yeah that’s gonna be very tough also.
You’re looking for a niche product, which, if it even exists, will have niche pricing.
Unless you’re willing to make compromises somewhere, I don’t think you’re going to.
I can tell you I recently got a Lenovo Yoga Pro, and it rivals Apple in terms of build quality. It has the best laptop keyboard I’ve ever used, by a longshot.
I was thinking framework but looks like your already on that path.
Lenovo
I was in a very similar situation when shopping for my current laptop so here are my thoughts: I set out looking for a lightweight and relatively powerful 13" Linux laptop and ended up with an M4 MacBook Air. Despite what a lot of people wanna say, the MacBook Air is one of the best deals you can get for an ultrabook, especially on these newer generations, as others I’ve looked at struggle to compete in performance per watt while at the same price point and with lower build quality. Seems to me that with the requirements you’ve listed, you will have to compromise on a few things if you want the advantages of running Linux.
The FW13, best fit I can think of, is a wonderful machine, you will probably have a good time with it, but it certainly does not have as good of a build quality, battery life nor UX refinement as a MacBook. The difference isn’t massive but it is there. These are common compromises when you buy into more ethical tech.
I was about to suggest the framework as well, but I don’t have to :)
I would just add that the build quality is at least equal to any mainstream brand like Dell or Lenovo, and you also gain in repairability/upgradability which will make this laptop last forever (every single piece is replaceable) or upgradable for a fraction of the price of a new laptop.
I wrote a first impression and 2.5 months review if you’re interested.
Hi. Typing this on M2 Air, running Gentoo. 👋
The limited ports drive me crazy too, but what’s maybe EVEN MORE frustrating, is the glossiness of the screen. It is not that good to be used outside, especially because it is dust and finger print magnet. I’m constantly wiping the screen. One thing that smudges the display seems to be the fact that some parts of the base touches the display when the lid is closed. Bad design, or I may just have a faulty specimen. The touchpad is needlessly big, but isn’t really a problem. My wrist can’t bend so that I could move my finger easily from corner to corner. :D Touchpad haptic stuff is nice when dragging. Keyboard is… meh. Nothing special. Then there’s the money problem. You have to spend ridiculous amounts of money to jump off from the base model. I have 256GB/8GB model. The least I should have accepted is 16Gigs of RAM. I got this Air for only for 300 euros (luck was involved), so a money well spent to get to know current Apple HW. But still… I feel I barely made a good deal (because my last laptop was Matebook D with the same amount of RAM and 1TB NVMe SSD). I’ll keep using this until I cannot cope with the amount of RAM anymore.
Battery life, performance and passively cooled CPU are the main highlights. Oh and the DAC can drive high impedance heaphones (I have Beyerdynamic DT-770 250 Ohm). I’m most disappointed to the display. The LCD under the glass is fine, but the glass itself is just horrible design. From now on: I choose only matte displays.
I think you’re much better off with Framework. I think that’ll be eventually my choice too.
I really like my Framework 16 laptop. I’ve been using it for about a year now. The modular ports and easily upgradeable design were a major selling point for me. Video workflows work well via Kdenlive and ffmpeg, but you can also install Davinci Resolve with some additional configuration. I purchased the GPU upgrade (frame.work/…/16-graphics-module-amd-radeon-rx-770…) and a handful of different port modules. My only dislikes are that it can get really hot from time to time and the GPU fans are pretty loud when they kick on. A coworker of mine has a Framework 13 laptop and seemed very satisfied with it. Best of luck in your search!
Yup. At this point, I’d just want to run Linux like normal on modern MacBook. Man my m1 MacBook Air is still a beast and with all good hardware.
Maybe a Starbook from Starlabs? starlabs.systems/pages/starbook
Or a V54 from NovaCustom?: novacustom.com/product/v54-series/
Or a Jupiter Pro from Juno Computers?: junocomputers.com/product/jupiter-14-pro-v3/
Or InfinityBook Pro 14 from Tuxedo?: tuxedocomputers.com/…/TUXEDO-InfinityBook-Pro-14-…
None of them are ticking every box but worth a look.
FYI, 14” is sort of the new 13.3”. A lot of newer 14” laptops are the about size of an older 13.3” laptop, but just have less bezel.
Same situation as with 16” vs 15.6”.
On the off chance that you’re still reading responses to this post:
I repair electronics, everything from automotive to industrial to audio to computers and phones. Not just screwdriver work either, bga rework and microscopic trace repair. I’m speaking from years of hands in experience with lots of computers, tablets, phones, amplifiers, plcs, ecus, and anything else you can think of plus countless hours of exercise helping people figure out what to buy, weather to repair, what to change and how a failure happened.
Get the mac.
You are describing the choice as being between the linux support level and the quality of other laptops. One is constantly improving, currently only falling short of your expectations due to requiring the existence of the computers native os and requiring you to maybe compile some stuff, the other begins below your expectations and cannot meet them. No one’s gonna push a free update that fixes the fit and finish or shitty trackpad of a computer.
Get the hardware you need.
Also, macs are secretly extremely repairable. People don’t like that they can’t just get in there and fuck around with a jewelers screwdriver and guitar pick, but it’s easy to find a qualified shop around you to fix whatever’s wrong with the computer. There’s always tons of replacement parts available, first party support docs (for shops that can prove they are real businesses) and third party info of all kinds.
Thank you for the lucid reply. I already got a DELL 5640 16" laptop in the interim. It ticks all my boxes except the large size and the off centered trackpad. Otherwise it’s ok. Nothing amazing, but it’s fast and with a lot of RAM for the $765 euros that I paid.