Linux phones are more important now than ever.
from Ulrich@feddit.org to linux@lemmy.ml on 04 Sep 14:36
https://feddit.org/post/18353777
from Ulrich@feddit.org to linux@lemmy.ml on 04 Sep 14:36
https://feddit.org/post/18353777
E: apparently it needs to be said that I am not suggesting you switch to Linux on your phone today; just that development needs to accelerate. Please don’t be one of the 34 people that replied to tell me Linux is not ready.
Android has always been a fairly open platform, especially if you were deliberate about getting it that way, but we’ve seen in recent months an extremely rapid devolution of the Android ecosystem:
- The closing of development of an increasing number of components in AOSP.
- Samsung, Xiaomi and OnePlus have removed the option of bootloader unlocking on all of their devices. I suspect Google is not far behind.
- Google implementing Play Integrity API and encouraging developers to implement it. Notably the EU’s own identity verification wallet requires this, in stark contrast to their own laws and policies, despite the protest of hundreds on Github.
- And finally, the mandatory implementation of developer verification across Android systems. Yes, if you’re running a 3rd-party OS like GOS you won’t be directly affected by this, but it will impact 99.9% of devices, and I foresee many open source developers just opting out of developing apps for Android entirely as a result. We’ve already seen SyncThing simply discontinue development for this reason, citing issues with Google Play Store. They’ve also repeatedly denied updates for NextCloud with no explanation, only restoring it after mass outcry. And we’ve already seen Google targeting any software intended to circumvent ads, labeling them in the system as “dangerous” and “untrusted”. This will most certainly carry into their new “verification” system.
Google once competed with Apple for customers. But in a world where Google walks away from the biggest antitrust trial since 1998 with yet another slap on the wrist, competition is dead, and Google is taking notes from Apple about what they can legally get away with.
Android as we know it is dead. And/or will be dead very soon. We need an open replacement.
threaded - newest
My next phone will run Linux, even if it is inconvenient.
As soon as this phone is paid off, I'll be changing from Google Fi as well. Which sucks because it's hella cheap.
What options are you looking into as far as a Fi replacement? I’m also on Fi and want to ditch them, and the Pixel soon.
I'm likely going to go to t-mobile as they're cheap from what I understand and they make up a big part of the network that google leases, along with (i think) US Cellular, or something similar.
That said, I've got about a year to decide, unless someone decides to hire me and then I can pay my phone off early.
go w an mvno; they’re usually cheaper and it rob the carriers of profit.
and the carriers deserve it for blacklisting chinese smartphones from their networks in collusion with the us gov’t in order to prevent chinese tech from entering the us like they’re doing with EV’s and solar panels using tariffs.
My family just switched from T-Mobile, as they’ve been jacking up prices lately, and without good reason, considering other carriers have better reception anyway.
What’d you switch to?
apparently it needs to be said that I am not suggesting you switch to Linux on your phone today; just that development needs to accelerate.I switched to Visible Wireless for now.
They’re asking what provider you switched to, not what phone.
Duh, thank you. Photon makes it hard to see context now.
Photon? Is that a Lemmy app? Try Summit! Anyway, thanks. I’m loving US Mobile so far, personally, but Visible would probably be my second choice.
Thanks for recommending Summit. I’ve been using Thunder and its OK, but initial looks at Summit and it seems much smoother an experience.
I came from Thunder, myself! I loved its big buttons, but it otherwise just didn’t have enough features. Check it out; you can always uninstall it if you end up disliking it!
Liking it so far. Is there a way to make the feed images big thumbnails like on thunder? I was looking around and didn’t see a setting for that. That’s really the only thing I’m not liking so far, everything else seems like an improvement.
Hmm, I’m not sure, but the dev is insanely active in !summit@lemmy.world if you ask or request this feature!
Thanks, I’m subbed to the community and asking. I’m loving summit so far I’m already uninstalling thunder.
FYI, I found the setting. There’s actually a slider for “image size” that allows you to set it at whatever % you want… Even better!
Dang, this dev has thought of everything! If anything, Summit is only criticized for having too many options, haha.
Looked at this comment and figured out the issue. I’ll push a fix soon!
Ha, I wasn’t trying to call you out. I really like it. It’s just there’s suddenly a lot of context missing. Thanks.
Good luck! Hope you get hired soon.
thanks! me too lol
As someone dailying a Linux phone, I will say that there were no issues getting it to work on T-Mobile. The only thing I did was manually enter the APN details, but that was an OS thing.
From what I have seen on forums Verizon won’t let you at all, and AT&T might take a bit of work to get them to whitelist the IMEI on their network.
at&t collects any and all data they can and sells it directly to law enforcment and the government btw. im pretty sure they all sell your data, but at&t has illegal deals with the government
I’m on Mint.
T-Mobile acquired them, per the usual bullshit, but I get 15GB a month with unlimited talk and text for “$20” a month. The catch is that you pay yearly in bulk for that price. Had it a year and change. Been solid.
I like us mobile alot. Well priced too
I’m with you, I’ve switched all my computers to Linux for similar reasons. I bought an android phone recently and put Linux on that, although still some things to iron out such as sound and microphone input but it’s working well otherwise. Looking forward to when I can ditch my iPhone.
what phone and os do you have? im currently shopping and have always been on android; im looking for recommendations on both phones and os <3
I have the Nothing Phone 1, running my fork of Mobile NixOS. I bought it because I wanted a bit of a challenge to get it running Linux and it’s relatively newer then other better supported Linux phones. I don’t recommend it for anyone who is new to Linux.
If you’re relatively new to Linux and want something that’s more compatible, I recommend looking at the OnePlus 6 or 6T. They have pretty good support for multiple different distros.
same. There is one windows computer still in this house and it's unplugged. Everything else is Linux, Android, or FreeBSD based.
I’ve switched as well but didn’t realize you could put Linux on an android device. Is it a specific distro and can you throw it on an old android tablet?
There are several distros. You do need to ensure (as listed in the OP) that your bootloader is unlockable (listed as “OEM unlock” in Android).
Interesting. I’ve seen Sailfish mentioned before, I’ll look into it. I’ve got a couple old tablets to mess around with, seems like a fun project. Thanks for the info!
Take a look into PostMarketOS, they are the bleeding edge for Linux mobile development. You can search on their wiki if your phone is supported.
The other solutions listed might be more turn key but not close to mainline Linux. (Custom kernel, etc)
They don’t seem to have any supported devices apart from community contributions?
“These are the most supported devices, maintained by at least 2 people and have the functions you expect from the device running its normal OS, such as calling on a phone, working audio, and a functional UI. Besides QEMU devices, this is currently empty.”
Yeah I wasn’t kidding about bleeding edge. It’s a double edged sword. You get more compatibility across a wide range of devices but it might not be 100% polished, yet.
To be fair, as most things in Linux, they are community developed. The community supported devices are supported by people who are taking their personal time to develop Linux to support these devices. You can view each individual device in the wiki to see how much support they have.
It’s all what you’re comfortable with, I still daily drive my iPhone as I need a very reliable device for my work. But I definitely rock my Linux phone when I can.
Wow, surprised to see the old Samsung Galaxy S3 on there. Looks like I’ve got a project coming up
I think they are very device specific. Like only a handful of specific phones have builds for these OS.
Is it true that the top 2 in your list have the most features?
I switched from Google Fi to the T- Mobile MI30TI plan (30GB/month, $10/month, data-only) with JMP.Chat VOIP and couldn’t be happier
I'll have to look into it. 30GB isn't bad at all. I think I have unlimited now with text and phone for only like $10 more a month. I'd have to look, it's been a while since i've dealt with it.
Worth noting that some services will reject VoIP phone numbers.
JMP also explicitly states that it doesn’t work for emergency calls.
100% agree. It’s worth testing with a new number first before porting your current number to JMP.Chat
Do you need a phone plan at all for emergency calling? It’s required for all carriers to take 911 calls in Canada.
That’s a good question. You don’t need a phone plan but I think you do still need some way to communicate with the towers. If you do like jevans (data plan only), I suspect there will be no calling functionality at all. Emergency or otherwise. But I could be wrong. Take out your SIM card and call 911 and let me know haha.
It works in Canada without a SIM. I know because my son did it on his “wifi-only” tablet.
What? People finance phones? 🤣
Yes, some of us have good credit.
I don’t but it doesn’t mean I’m better than other people who do
You can’t sideload in Linux.
On linux it’s just called running an executable
Edit: As a less snarky answer, you can run Android apps natively on linux by installing Android OS in a container using something like
AnboxWaydroid.Mint and US Mobile are both good alternatives to Fi. US Mobile is a bit more flexible since you can use any of the major US carriers.
Unfortunately there's a lot(!) to do to make Linux enjoyable on a phone. I bought a Pinephone some years ago. And in addition to the slow hardware, the entire software/desktop experience isn't great. While everyone else has instant messengers, Linux doesn't have connected standby and emails and messages just don't arrive unless the screen is on. It wastes quite some power, and there are a bazillion small little quirks and annoyances and it's barely usable if compared to a regular smartphone. I think someone needs to invest quite some more time and money until this becomes a thing. I mean don't get me wrong, Linux and the low-level system is awesome. And it's brilliant on any server/laptop/desktop computer. It's just that there's so many things missing for a proper phone experience. And it's not just mildly inconvenient, but like people expect instant messages to be delivered...
It seems like you read the title as “everyone needs to switch to Linux mobile right now” but that’s not what it says.
The point is, as you said, there’s a lot of work that needs to be done, and that work is more important now than ever.
So which is the best project to back?
I dunno! It will really require the participation of the entire community.
Gnome has been making great progress on the graphical front.
Notifications should be pretty simple, and probably should be provided by hardware manufacturers. But the support will need to be implemented into the apps that need them. That can potentially also fix the battery issue.
PostmarketOS I think is probably the most mature Linux mobile package currently but I’m no expert on the subject.
I’d argue that Ubuntu Touch and Sailfish are the most mature offerings. Both OSs are (or at least were at some point) developed as commercially viable alternatives to the duopoly. That gives them a headstart in terms of apps and overall pollish.
The postmarket shells are catching up, but you still get instructions like “drag and drop a file from your file manager to open it”, which doesn’t work on a phone. Phone UX still seems like an afterthought in many cases.
Postmarket OS is a desktop Linux system, but for phones. UT and Sailfish on the other hand are mobile OSs, that happen to use much of the same tech as desktop Linux. They are therefore much closer to the duopoly (for bettet or for worse).
Great, thanks! The next step would be to figure out if either is compatible with Syncthing and GPS-guided nav…
Syncthing:
Navigation:
Woohoo!! Now I can’t decide between the two…
Have had both. Still have Sailfish because the phone is cheaper.
Also I thought Ubuntu Touch would be discontinued and I no longer use Ubuntu on my desktop,
but an Arch-based OS.
Best thing you can do is buy a phone that’s most compatible to the OS.
So Fairphone 5 or Pixel 3a for Ubuntu Touch,
and Jolla 2 for the Sailfish.
Do not buy Pine64.
Pine64 is unusable.
Dang it, I gotta change, I guess, unless this info is old:
Isn’t the VollaPhone Quintus the best option for Ubuntu Touch? (It’s more expensive than the Fair Phone, but it ships with UT)
volla.online/en/index.php
If it does ship it with UT and Fairphone doesn’t, then yes.
Sure. It's just that the timeframe is a bit disheartening. To me... so all of this is highly subjective. We had the Nokia N900 in like 2009. And I was expecting to live the full Linux experience within a few years and those things to become a bit more affordable. And today it's almost 16 years later and it doesn't feel like we've come substantially closer. More recently we had Librem and Pine64 put some effort and publicity into it, and that's also been 5 years. The mobile/touch desktops made some good progress. PostmarketOS is kind of nice. But there are entire layers missing like the app framework in Android which enables such app lifecycles, connected standby... Sandboxing and a fine-granular permission system for proprietary apps (or just modern mainstream usage) is kind of in its infancy. And I'm not even sure if everyone is going to use Flatpak for everything. And all of those missing things are huge undertakings.
So I'm not sure when to expect such an every-day phone... Maybe in 2030 or 2035? But that's kind of late if the headline is "more important now, than ever". Because all the while Google is moving more and more stuff from AOSP into their proprietary Play services and it's getting uncomfortable for me. We have a deadline with the Google messes with the allowed apps on a phone starting 2027. And my life includes more and more mandatory apps, or I have to forfeit taking part in society, culture, convenience or riding a train... This year, Google started giving the GrapheneOS devs a hard time... Now they're making it even more complicated.
So of course not everyone has to use it, and I'm first of all concerned with my own wellbeing. But I really don't see a solution in the near future which is going to address the important issues if today and the next few years. So I'm a bit unsure if a Linux phone will come around and help me before it's too late, or if I need to find other ways to deal with it.
True but I also never even considered it before because honestly open source Android works really great on most devices already. Now that that’s all basically disappearing, hopefully more people will be more dedicated to creating an alternative.
Can you help me understand why Linux phones are the answer rather than a community maintained android fork?
Android is already fully featured and has a solid ecosystem so it’s usable now, not in 5-10 years with less of a need for adjustment for the people who want to switch.
Basically, why take several steps backwards and start from scratch?
Because a community maintained fork wont solve the problems in the OP?
I strongly disagree with this comment. I’ll answer your numbered points from the original post one by one with my perspective:
Do you disagree with any of these? Would love to hear your thoughts
Wow. Ok.
All “community driven forks” are based on Google’s AOSP. None of them have the resources to develop this stuff from the ground up.
No but someone would sell Linux devices if they were commercially viable, and no one would buy a Linux device with a locked bootloader.
You wouldn’t need it on Linux mobile because…it’s not Android.
I already addressed this in OP.
But then you need apps that work on Linux (optimised for mobile/touch). You can also easily create Apps for Android without play integrity API necessity.
Realistically an Android fork makes more sense.
Though in my ideal dream world a Rust based mobile wayland compositor (etc.) will be the future of open mobile OS. I hope there’s enough (financial) interest to at some point reach that future.
Correct again! Running Linux apps on Linux, what a concept!
It doesn’t, for all the reasons I listed in OP.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m the first promoting an Android free mobile Linux, free of big company influences.
Though, what I meant is that there’s very few mobile optimised apps on Linux, and I doubt that changes soon. The Android SDK is very matured (like Compose for UI). It’s fairly easy to create a good native app experience in Android. Less so for non-Android Linux. (I’ve developed apps for either) Think about that alone, which further complicates adoption, which TBH is just necessary to get to an ecosystem that us usable for daily usage.
I hope that changes sooner than later, but the current alternatives are just not there yet.
comparison is the thief of joy and it’s unrealistic to expect a product of grass roots community effort to compare to a product that benefits from deep pockets that can afford the finest talent and a considerably long head start.
I'm not sure. A phone is kind of a tool, same for a computer. Ideally we weigh our options (aka compare them) and pick which suits us best. And this grass roots effort isn't doing a half-assed job. I have almost everything available. I can do regular tasks, edit videos, do computer aided design, do heavy database stuff, run the bookkeeping for an entire mid-sized company, a server farm or almost anything I like with Free Software and Linux. I don't think a phone is fundamentally different and I kind of have the same high expectations for that niche. We're already doing great with lots of other things, both more niche and more ordinary stuff. And oftentimes it does not include money from tech giants.
How cool would it be to out of nowhere see Valve come out with a SteamPhone based on Arch which does everything you ever hoped for and runs on high quality hardware including all the features that others took away (colour alert pixel, 3,5mm jack, replaceable battery), complete with dual boot or a containerised Android-mode for running apps that would never work like banking or eID. Would buy instantly.
Definitely going to be trying for some kind of linux phone for my next one.
Debating biting the bullet on the ~$800 cost of a fairphone.
i know it is still google, but i just started searching ebay for a used pixel 9 - looks like they are around $400-500 (pixel 10 came out last month). i figure getting graphene os on one of these may be an inexpensive path forward… still looking for good options, tho.
i’ll have to check out fairphone. i remember something about them not being available in the US, but that may be old news.
There's a distributor, Murena, selling the Fairphone 4 and Fairphone 6 in the U.S. now. The Fairphone isn't fully usable with Linux yet, though. Calls, camera, and GPS all still apparently aren't working 100% with postmarket OS. I'm not aware of any other distribution that does any better. https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Category:Fairphone
oof, no wifi is kind of a dealbreaker for me; i have a home server and really dont want to have to be VPN’d into my home all the time :(
looks like fairphone 6 doesnt have much support on postmarket yet, but i’ll keep an eye on it - ty <3
Yeah, I don't think the Fairphone 6 is quite ready. In fact, since none of the previous Fairphone models ever got to full Linux usability, I don't really expect it to happen.
I think the best option -- and really the only option -- right now is the Furilabs FLX1. I'm planning on getting one soon.
I want one, too, as soon as the second batch is available. I hope there are some left after all the pre-orders are sent out.
Ubuntu Touch supports the FP4 & FP5 quite well: devices.ubuntu-touch.io
Oh nice! That is very encouraging.
I was looking into Fairphone and got sketched out, they do not really seem particularly trustworthy or competent.
For example: …grapheneos.org/…/24134-devices-lacking-standard-…
Oof
The main problem is that mobile OS is simply not useful without banking or government apps and they won’t ever appear on FOSS systems because giving control to user is exactly the opposite of what’s in their interest.
I don’t understand why people need banking apps on their phone. I only ever access my banking info from the PC…
2fa with a banking app, a lot of banks work that way
That’s insane. They don’t have TOTP? Or Passkeys? Or (God forbid) SMS or email verification? The only 2FA option is using their shitty app? I think I’d rather switch banks…
It became hard to do that in my country. I changed banks twice in a year because they became shit but even the third one uses its app as 2fa. At least it is a better bank…
Vancity credit union uses standard TOTP. But RBC uses their stupid app where I live.
None of my banks (a couple French and Belgian ones) seem to support anything but auth via app. Can’t log in on my computer without my phone.
I know Credit Mutuel can provide you a physical card with a bunch of codes of which one is selected at random at auth time
Had family use it because they had a Huawei phone
Interesting! Maybe it’s worth switching banks, at least once I get the courage to move to Linux mobile.
and you can do it from your phone too using a browser other than android-chrome or ios-safari.
If it is what the user wants, then it is a factor for adoption. It is a hard sell to say “yes it can only perform half the stuff you usually do with a phone, but you don’t need that anyways”. It comes across as condescending, too.
My intent is not to be condescending. It is to make people aware of the fact that they have a choice: They can choose to subject themselves to increasingly-closed and exploitative platforms, or they can choose the extremely minor (I would argue non) inconvenience of using the browser or another computer to access their banking information.
Convenience and the ability to back outside the comforts of my own home.
I had nothing but problems with banking apps. Can’t do anything if location is off, or it doesn’t like your IP, or if it thinks you have rooting software installed. And if it doesn’t work right, no one at the bank knows how to help. I just stopped using them, eventually.
If only banks could figure out how security works…
In my country, for all the banks I use, I need to have an app on my phone to access their website with my Linux computer.
So a Linux phone would need to provide this as I can’t be without access to my accounts.
Wat.
thats pretty common, in my country as well.
like a two factor authentication. but without TOTP. but with a proprietary app by the bank provided.
Ohhh right. Yeah that’s weird. Like I said elsewhere, I would find a new bank if I had that problem.
Yeah it’s part of the 2 factors authentification process.
Back in the days you received some card reader generating a code, but that ain’t the case anymore…
So Linux would need to have a native version of these apps or a way to efficiently emulate Android or iOS.
Those card readers are called TOTP and we can do that with apps now. Not like the specific app in question but just like a standard password manager that stores all your TOTPs.
I didn’t know this. But I guess the bank has to allow it.
Last time I checked my banks were only allowing you to do such things through an app or at the bank (which is far from my village).
In Sweden many parts of society requires an app called BankID. We authenticate getting mail packages, sign contracts, book a time in health care, etc with this app. It’s needed everywhere. Buying a bus ticket. A phone without this app is not sufficient to function in swedish society.
Interesting. I’m an online notary. I sign papers with essentially an encrypted certificate from my Linux PC.
Sounds a bit dystopian
A little bit yes, since the BankID is owned by private companies. There are those who are working on a free software version and some people think that the government should have an official authentication app free from private interests. But it’s been hard to make people aware and care about these issues. It’s like the xkcd worlds smallest open source violin. At the same time, many things that relate to proving that I am me has become very convenient in this society. For example I moved to a new apartment and they just sent a link to the contract and I signed it with the app and that was that, I did my taxes by just checking that the info they had was correct and signed it on my phone, etc.
Aren’t you able to get a dongle for 2fa like in Denmark? We have MitID but you can easily get a dongle so you don’t need a phone
Yes, true. But then you need to carry an extra device. I know it’s just inconvenience.
it’s not really a need, it’s more an imposition. we’re forced to do everything via the app
Many cheaper online banks rely on their mobile app. Your debit card will not work wirhout an in-app confirmation. There’s no web interface (“not secure enough”).
Can I switch banks and make my life less convenient? Sure. Would I do it just to stick it to google? No.
Which is an odd take as when I statted using "smart phones" not a singke.one supported apps from banks or government,.yet here we arw.
Buy Nothing Phones… Un-lockable bootloader without need to even ask for it, very lite and clean AOSP derivate android flavour.
That doesn’t solve any of the problems I listed.
It does. Unlock bootliader, flash lineage or just uninstall all Google apps and services.
Sure doesn’t.
Got a link? Buy Nothing is a national upcycling program in the US, haha.
There you go:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_(company)
Oh, I thought the phrase here was “Buy Nothing.”
I would like to move away from Android and iOS. But I'm not sure it's really feasible. Hell, I might even have to move fully to iOS, because that's what the wife uses. That's the challenge with Linux or alternative OSes on mobile. It goes against the purpose of the device - it needs to be able to interact with the people in your life.
Because I have Android and she has an iPhone, we can't easily share headphones (her AirPods or my generic ones) or some of the other accessories. For instance, I don't want a device without a 3.5mm jack, so none of my headphones work for her. About the only thing we can share is the USB-C cable, and it's less efficient on my device. We have to use Google Maps to share location, the built-in functions don't talk. We have to use regular SMS and calls or Discord to talk, because FaceTime and iMessage don't have compatible Android software. I love her with all my heart - and frankly speaking she's worth more to me than software advocacy.
That's what causes ecosystem lock-in. As Sartre said, Hell is other people.
That’s not a “challenge” that linux can ever overcome. The only way to overcome that is to ask your wife to switch to a device that’s respectful of you and her and everyone else.
I find it extremely irritating that so many people see other devices and “well I can’t interact with them the way I want to so I’d better join them and contribute to the problems so I can also not interact with other people on free systems”.
Okay. Give me a Linux phone that works out of the box that suits the following dealbreakers:
Compatibility with iMessage and FaceTime. This is essential because my wife, my MIL, and other family members all use it. I can't be expected to change everyone over, I need to be compatible with the majority. I might be able to convert them over time, but it's going to be gradual.
Always-on location information sharing with location data pulled from both GPS & terrestrial sources.
Full support for Bluetooth devices, especially the ANC function of AirPods or similar (oh, and support for my mother's hearing aid app).
OS-level support for telephony and SMS + MMS + RTC messaging. With software that has an instantly usable UI.
A deep repository of trusted software with clear and easy UX that doesn't require adjustment - it all needs to "just work".
Those are the dealbreakers for me.
Yes, thank you for laying out a great roadmap for the future.
That's the issue. It's a great set of goals, but I need to be able to make my wife happy today. Long-term plans for the future are all well and good, but we live in the present. So at the moment, Android is the most open compromise I can make.
Listen, if you want to continue to contribute value to companies that want to fuck you at every turn because you can’t be bothered to find other ways to overcome minor inconveniences, that’s your prerogative. You’re just like most people.
Once again, this is never going to happen. And this is NOT essential. To anyone. Not even a little bit. Ask your family members to use a different platform. There are HUNDREDS of messaging apps that all do the same fucking thing but aren’t behind Apple’s Walled Garden. If they can’t be bothered, then it must not be important. I ask my friends and family to message me on Signal and most of them don’t have a problem with it.
True, there are many ways to make video calls these days that already work on Linux.
Are any of them as user-friendly and accessible as FaceTime? The people in my life (myself included most days) value good UX over technical genius.
Signal on both Android and IOS
Unfortunately not usable with Linux without a phone yet but so far the most accessible option
Wait make ur wife happy because of these devices? That insane how u guys were living 20 years ago let not pretend that this devices bring something really important that was not possible to do in old way in the past ,they gave just some alternative way to do stuff including all ur things u said.I am so glad that my family don’t understand anything in tech in such things and using just usual phone calls and for video they using something like telegram
We were teenagers 20 years ago, is how.
Wait, aren’t we on here due to privacy?
Privacy is relative. I need my wife to know where I am and vice-versa.
Interesting, you must have quite the mobile work or something.
She does. And I can't drive, so I take mass transit, which makes her worry for my safety.
Dang, yeah, that makes sense!
Like you, I value my relationships and by extension my mental health more than which messaging app I use.
I hate Meta with a passion and them acquiring Whatsapp is probably the most disappointing acquisition of all time to me, but I’m going to continue using it because my wife, family in Latin America, and world friends all use it. And being lonely and out of touch isn’t worth the satisfaction of knowing my data isn’t being scraped to me. Others in these threads always seems to disagree here, and they’re free to do that but it’s not a lifestyle I’m interested in.
I’m making changes where I can; I self host a server for my media, photos, files. I’m going to install Graphene on my phone soon. I’m interested in picking up a cheaper older phone to try a Linux mobile OS on. I have my phone auto connect to my pihole to block trackers when I’m out of the house, etc. But I know as soon as it’s something I have to inconvenience others with, it’s not going to work.
Pick your battles.
I might be a dick for pointing it out, but the willingness to switch tech ecosystems for a spouse should really go both ways
You're not a dick for saying it. But switching and losing daily driven features isn't really something I think is fair. And that's why I would be the one to change. I'd probably just keep the apple device on hotspot mode and use the Android as a tablet and VOIP call/text device.
What phones do you recommend for linux then?
Send me back to the 90s with the flip phone. Old Nokia with a changeable battery, no malicious firmware that has spyware built in. It’s just a phone.
That’s just all electronics outside of Linux at this point.
i tried to do this recently but it created a lot of friction in daily life. once the masses have moved on, it’s hard to keep the old stuff, sadly. it’s really frustrating.
Yep, I tried going the dumbphone route and lasted about a month. I travel a fair bit for work, and it’s almost impossible now without a smartphone.
that’s the hard part for me. daily life is bearable with a dumb phone but i live in a semi-rural area. when i go to civilization it’s high friction without a smartphone.
I get by alright without a smart phone. Over the years I’ve seen more and more “just scan this QR code to do such-and-such”, and I ignore them. I think you’re right that it is a lot of added friction compared to using a phone. A lot of stuff is instantly at your fingertips with your phone.
But to be honest, I really truly think that a bit of friction is a good thing. Without it, we just slide helplessly into oblivion. Or, less metaphorically speaking, the friction turns an automatic decision into a deliberate one. The friction pushes people to think about their actions and choices a little bit. And that’s generally a good thing - even if its a little bit harder.
for me it was less about things being a little bit harder and more about being unable to travel from the airport to lodging or work offices without paying out of my own pocket, which I couldn’t afford anyhow.
typically I would just buy a cheap prepaid stock android phone for this and use as much fake info as I could.
Sure about that?
spyware in a 90s phone ? Where it was even a miracle to be able to connect to Internet ? Yeah, they were able to pinpoint your position using the cell towers (which were less than today so not that precise) and the telecom know who and when you were calling but other than that…
I really want one but I dont think I can live with it daily. Too much shit relies on phones now. Linux is perfect for my desktop and I never need windows, but I dont think a linux phone is gonna work for my banking or investment apps
Banks allow me to login via their web interface, send money to a BSB + Account Number or even a PayID (email / phone number) but using their app to do just the same is too far?
It’s total rubbish, honestly I’ve resurrected my OG ridge wallet and am planning on installing Graphene on my P7P to skirt the phone payment trap.
I was one of the few in Australia to test Google wallet (thanks for the free cash google) and thought it was the bees knees. It’s a fucking long con and fuck I feel dumb for falling into it.
Worst still my drivers licence is a phone app, so are my work certificates and probably a bunch of other shit that I’ll only realize later.
I guess fuck around and find out shows its ugly face eventually.
I switched back to banking at a branch years ago, and I love it. Money gets into my account so much faster when I deposit a check at a bank vs online.
Ahh we don’t really use cheques here in Aus. Payments being electronic doesn’t worry me, pay lands in my account the same day it’s processed, sometimes the following day if the accountants miss the deadline.
Sending someone money is generally instant using PayID, without fees too.
I use neobanks (no physical branches) so as long as their web interface works well enough for me, and I can use my own 2FA (not SMS based) ill be happy as a pig in mud.
Just wait and see if the climate turns to no physical cards in the next 5 - 10 years…
That sounds nice. Banking in the US is slow. Do you have something like shared ATMs for physical currency deposits, or is that also not used anymore?I can’t imagine us going no-card, but it sounds like your system is already most of the way there.
Not around here but the major banks in my area still allow for note / change deposits into accounts. They even have coin hoppers in some still, great for cleaning out the glovebox / centre console.
Been a while since I’ve used one as I generally take my change into work and convert it into notes there :D
It’s crazy to see the downturn in cash going through pubs, I’ve been in the industry for 20 years and remember when I’d started most transactions were physical money, these days on a busy night I’ll count the 7 tills we have and maybe end up with 3k in cash takings. (not including the pokies for obvious reasons).
Phone apps are a pet peeve of mine. Most apps are just websites wrapped up in the ASAR archive format. Instead of spending all this extra money to build an app, just make your original website responsive.
I imagine building on existing AOSP project like GrapheneOS or LineageOS would be the easiest path forward. There is already a decent ecosystem of open source apps available. You’d still need to figure out what to do with proprietary apps like Slack that regular people might need for day to day use.
Ultimately, the problem lies in lack of a hardware vendor willing to take make open phones that are geared towards running a custom OS on without having to jailbreak them. I really think the only way this can happen is if there was a vendor that focuses on providing a full stack open source system for mobile. Maybe a company like Liberux or even Framework will succeed at doing something like that at some point.
Liberux is using waydroid to add compatibility from what I’ve seen, so that may be the way forward where you have a base Linux system, and then a layer for running Android apps on top of it.
My thinking too. I don’t think we need a Linux phone from stracht but fork android and make it work without the play service. It’s the hardware manufacturers that are the problem.
I agree. As it stands, there is no immediate problem with buying a vendor unlockable phone for LineageOS or GrapheneOS. It does seem like Google is slowly closing the doors to FOSS, so the future could require an AOSP fork. But it also might not. We don’t really know for sure. As long as LineageOS and GrapheneOS exist and have developers, we have nothing to sorry about.
If, in the future, all hardware manufacturers fail us, I have used Waydroid on an old Thinkpad, and it is fantastic. And, more in the Linux ecosystem is Android Translation Layer which translates Android syscalls into Linux syscalls. It is buggy, but I could see it getting better in the future.
Anyway, I’m not really worried. There are still a lot of paths forward, and FOSS advocates are persistent.
Yeah, the foundation exists and it’s just going to be a question of building out on top of it. It’s also worth noting that the app ecosystem outside google is starting to become fairly complete as well. I find that in practice I only use a handful of apps such as email client, messenger, music player, weather app, a browser, a maps app, and a calendar. That accounts for most of what I do on my phone day to day, and there are mature open source options for all of these apps.
My next phone is definitely going to be a Linux phone. I don’t care if it’s ready. I’m ready.
Same here.
Yes. Need the kind of love desktop hardware got for Linux with mobile hardware. I don’t need tap to pay and mobile deposit. That can come when the ball really gets rolling and the user base is too large to not service. For now I’d be happy with consistent phone/text support, signal application, a mobile Firefox, and the phone dockable to run full desktop applications. Strong enough hardware. Google are a bunch of jackasses. Need more phones to support PostmarketOS or something
Most apps I can replace with a web browser but the mass market has shown it’s preference for an app store. Got to get payments integrated into Flathub
I’m in a similar position. My next phone will be a Linux device I just hope I can install Signal everything else I can do on my pc instead even if it’s less convenient
Valve could do it.
Haha yeah, probably. Honestly I’m shocked they don’t have an Android store like Epic. But I digress.
Make a beefy gaming phone with the steam store!
There are already some very cool-looking Linux cyberdecks.
What does this have to do with this discussion?
Cyberdecks are 1) pocketable 2) computing devices 3) often wireless, and 4) run Linux.
That’s what people want from phones, so I figured it was a valid contribution to the discussion.
I guess not…
<img alt="" src="https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/50d1b2cb-328b-4e15-9fa9-06d481062a4d.jpeg">
That does not look remotely pocketable…
Yes it does.
Oh ok, sorry
Not relevant to this thread. However, I didn’t know what a cyberdeck was and there are indeed some very cool-looking ones. :)
There’s still hope with AOSP. I could see something coming out of that before a Linux platform is ready.
Like what?
Like a fully open source Android ROM.
That wouldn’t solve 2, 3, or 4.
for 4 Linux would also kind have the same problem as a 3rd party ROM, (almost) no one is making mobile apps for Linux
Sure, there are a lot of desktop apps, but most don’t have a mobile UI in mind
Linux has all kinds of problems but none of them are fundamental the same way that Android is.
You’re saying that an Android without any Google/Samsung/Xiaomi/OnePlus interference wouldn’t solve the problems introduced by Google/Samsung/Xiaomi/OnePlus?
No that’s not what I said. I’m saying there is no Android without Google.
We already have it (LineageOS etc), the problem is that the hardware they run on (reflashed unlocked android phones) are disappearing and the whole android ecosystem with proprietary 3rd party software is getting more restrictive.
I thought they already gutted much of AOSP. Like removing the dialer or contacts and stuff.
My first thought was that a hard-fork of AOSP would be a much better solution than a Linux phone. But when you have locked down hardware, it doesn’t matter, because you simply can’t install it.
I still think a community fork of AOSP would be more efficient than Linux mobile.
Are there any Linux mobile OSs that do not use a compatibility layer with Android underneath it?
I tried Ubuntu Touch a couple of years ago and couldn’t get mobile data working with UK provider but apart from that it was very cool.
Yes, Ubuntu Touch is one of them. I listed more elsewhere.
I have a Pixel 9 Pro which is supposed to get security updates until 2031 but at the pace Google is closing Android down I wonder if it will even be viable to stay on an AOSP degoogled ROM until then.
I feel like the future is leading us to a place where we will have to reduce our mobile computing to a trusted but slow and unreliable main phone while keeping a secondary mainstream device for banking/government apps.
I also think disconnecting the concepts of “pocket computer” and “always-on two way radio with location tracking and internet connectivity” are things you could put in different physical devices.
Just gotta work out how to get internet on the pocket computer, so I can do mobile banking and cab bookings on the go.
GrapheneOS
Ubuntu Touch has a planned release for September 24th! Eager to see what devices have a full compatibility rating to know what I’ll buy next
Have you looked at the state of how open source smartphone os projects are funded? Seems like not enough people think it is currently important. i saw no bump in funding since the announcement. I would say the best bet is trying to help one of these projects with fundraising and trying to educate or convince enough people it is worth investing in. and obviously donate if you can. Although to be honest even i don’t do that (i think i invest enough in FOSS).
Once i bought a phone i tried to pick one that is friendly for FOSS projects and went with a pixel (which grapheneos recommended). so voting or signaling with your wallet is an option.
I also think something like codeberg. where anyone can be a member if he pays fees that help fund the organisation and democratically elect a board that decides what to fund could be helpful. codeberg has a pretty good organic growth so that is encouraging but i don’t know if there is enough interest in that.
Right there’s too many people shooting down the Linux phone concept within this thread 😔
Got me worried (bc i have a newish oneplus phone) but apparently OnePlus is only doing that in China for now. Still not a good sign for the future…
xiaomi is doing something like motorola, in which they drop support for unlocking older devices.
pretty slimy move considering those are the ones that need it the most. very disappointed in a manufacturer that otherwise makes great hardware.
Imagine if vendors like Anbernic started shipping devices that had phone hardware supported with open software. That would be so rad. They already run android and Linux and have a vibrant community.
This thing looks like it has all the hardware you need to make a cheap cell phone…
I think the biggest thing lacking in this kind of hardware is displays. Where can you find a phone-sized 1080p display that doesn’t require signing some NDA or reverse engineering the specs? OLED would be even better for battery life.
I don’t see that probably 360p black-or-white e-ink display is going to be a good experience unless you’re comparing it to a flip phone.
Flip phone would be a similar market. But this would be better.
I mean, you could approximate a phone with a lot of SBCs out there right now, if you stuck a screen onto it. A lot of them even have SIM modules. If somebody wanted to go full hacker you could probably 3D print a case for something like a Banana Pi, stick a cheap touchscreen OLED panel in there and Frankenstein up a battery. Would be a lot of work though and I’m sure getting all the shit working would be nontrivial.
Yeah and it’d be thicc as fuck and completely ridiculous to carry around. Wouldn’t even fit in your pocket. At least this is compact and doesn’t have sharp edges and wires hanging out trying to unalive itself.
But think of the street cred!
Many people on r/cyberdeck had made something similar. Now I’m wondering if there’s one on lemmy too…
Lol. Even this $100 phone can get a headphone jack but the massively-funded Android OEMs aside Sony can’t offer this feature.
I’ll consider a Linux phone as long as the following are met:
If these are met, I’ll buy whatever is available in a year or two.
This one requirement I believe to be already met. Mobile kde, for one, is pretty nice. I believe the bottleneck of linux phones are really in the hardware
UX is more than the UI, it’s the entire User Experience (UX). That means scaled down desktop apps are not good substitutes for proper Mobile apps.
Google and Facebook will cooperate. WhatsApp will never work reliably.
Use the web version, although you’ll need a phone to authenticate.
Better yet, move out of whatsapp (i know, network effect).
There’s also some whatsapp clients on flathub that claim to support linux mobile. Matrix bridges are also available.
Yeah, I wish the Pine phone battery life was a bit better. Who knows, maybe it’s improved since I last tried it
My solution? Giving up the smartphone. They are too fragile and are high maintenance. I’ve simply had enough. So, I went with a Sonim XP3Plus flip phone. Mainly because the screen on the Pixel 3, the phone I went through the trouble of putting a custom ROM on and setting up just right, broke somehow inside.
Yeah, the flip phone runs Android, but it comes as a scaled down version of Android (no Google crap, or extra apps, like any app store; just the basics), so I don’t have to do any modding. And I just keep my plan cheap for unlimited calling with very little data (I keep the data off anyways, so I don’t care).
Basically, I’ve gone old school to solve a modern problem (for music, I went with an old school MP3 player). And if people can’t be bothered to pick up the phone, I move on. This is where I stand now. I’ve had enough.
I feel like I finally have peace again after 10 years of using the smart phone. Being disconnected while outside is great.
Best part? The flip phone can last about 2 weeks on a full charge.
PS: Being completely off Google; even YouTube? Feels amazing. I’ve turned to Odysee, Peertube and B-chute and use those with RSS feeds. No algorithms.
This is how I solved the modern tech problem.
You didn’t solve any problems, you just opted out of a whole bunch of features.
Features that I really didn’t give a crap about in the end. Also, my point still stands; smartphones are way too fragile and high maintenance.
So, I did solve the problem; by choosing not to bother with it. For the sake of my sanity. It was the only sane choice to make, given how stupid (and exploitative) modern smartphones have become. All this has done is set people back, wasting more time for absolutely nothing. Rather than being present, people are walking down the street with a phone in their face. It’s a sad future for society. Thankfully, I was born long before smartphones were a thing. So, I know how to live without one.
At least I can say this; I am not crying about why Google or Microsoft is doing “this” or “that” to me all the time in a constant cycle. That’s no solution at all. Cutting out the problem was the solution.
Walking away does not solve the problem. It just makes it no longer your problem. Everyone else still has to deal with it. Not everyone has that privilege.
People can change things if they really want to. The real issue is that most don’t want to because they are tied to a bunch of mainstream junk on their phones; thanks to those manipulative algorithms. And that is what you need to realize. Until then, you’ll never be free.
Yes and no. Some of us actually need our phones to accomplish things. Work, primarily. As people mentioned elsewhere, simple things like accessing their banking accounts. I wish we didn’t, but we do.
I’d never do banking on a smartphone; not in a million years. One theft or hack in public, and all your money and data are at risk. Beyond that, people put far too much of their lives into their phones, and that’s the bigger problem. And that’s the aspect you want to keep avoiding.
They’re not doing it by choice. The phone is used as mandatory authentication to access the account.
…and how do you suppose your laptop is immune from this? Or your desktop, even?
I’m not avoiding anything. What you fail to understand is that not everyone’s situation is the same as yours. For some of us, these things are outside of our control.
I have a separate flip phone with a number to get a verification code to access my bank account at home. It’s only used for getting codes (and nothing else). So, no chance of a SIM swapping.
I just said I do my online banking at home (with a local only encrypted password manager; KeePassXC). Why would I do online banking in public in general when I do my online banking at home? In public, that’s taking a huge risk; regardless of the device you use. I just couldn’t dream of doing anything confidential in public; cafes, trains, anywhere. It’s a huge unnecessary risk, and I choose to avoid it entirely.
And you are avoiding everything I am telling you, choosing to continue to make excuses for yourself. That’s why you will forever be where you are.
I don’t think you understand how SIM swapping works but that’s an irrelevant tangent, so I digress.
You are still not understanding what I’m saying: Many banks require an app to be installed on a mobile device (that is, iOS or Android) for account verification in order to access your account. Nothing at all to do with your SIM. You cannot access your account without this app being installed on a mobile device.
Who said anything about doing banking in public?
No. You are.
We’re done here.
Keep on avoiding the issue then, and keep up the good fight with the smartphone ecosystem. It will never end for you. For as long as you defend the smartphone ecosystem, and that you want to avoid the fact that the smartphone controls your life. This is what I mean; tech, like the smartphone isn’t serving the user anymore. Instead, the smartphone has become your master. And you, its slave.
Just look around; people walking down the street with their heads buried in their phones. It tells you all you need to know about who is the master and who is the slave.
PS: Use a different bank if they force you to only use an app. Just a thought? Just like restaurants forcing QR codes; walk away. You can make the choice any time you like. 🙂
Over here, banks aren’t allowed to do SMS codes anymore period. So tell me how I should solve the second factor required by law when all „dumb tech“ alternatives aren’t available anymore due to laws and regulations?
What a shitty law. Is this in the UK? If so, figures.
Well, if the bank apps only support Android and iPhone, you’re pretty much hooped. Aren’t you? A Linux phone won’t help you.
So, the only option is to use the smartphone for nothing but the silly app. Or, do things the old way. Go to the bank and do your banking there.
Then just use the flip phone for the everything else.
My bank does not have physical representation anywhere, since it is a digital bank. When I joined them they had a sheet of TAN numbers for us to use, but that is long since gone. And seeing how few and far between other banks are with theirs nowadays it would become extremely impractical to do physical banking only.
Well, that’s silly. I’d never do business with a bank that doesn’t have a physical location in the town or city that I live (or anywhere). That’s way too fishy. Not to mention, scary and uncertain if you ask me.
If we all stopped the world would adapt. The council let the street signs rot because everyone is on gmaps, restaurants stopped having menus just qr codes, places in England were you get kicked out if you insist to pay by cash.
All of it would be reversed if… we reversed A pipe dream but weirder things happened
Kicked out for using cash? You are serious? That is so backwards… What about old people who don’t use smartphones and use the old school landline? And if a restaurant didn’t have a paper menu, and wouldn’t offer me one, I would just walk right out. Clearly, they don’t want people’s business. It should be accessible to anyone who is willing to pay. Not just smartphone users. What kind of dystopian fate is this? That’s like discrimination for not owning… an algorithmic pushing slot machine. lol
Plus, people use their smartphones everywhere. Even in the bathroom. Then they bring it to the dinner table? That’s so gross. Horribly unsanitary.
They did reverse the cash ting at the pub, every day a different customer would have a proper argument about it. Don’t ask why I was there everyday tho
For observing the chaos over that poor decision? 😂
It’s a pub. I think there should be no questions 🤣
Okay well let me know when you get everyone to stop. Until then…
You keep on supporting it, then it will never change. Just like supporting the smartphone ecosystem still. It has way too much power over people’s lives. Sorry, it’s not healthy.
He did solve a problem, his problem. What’s the deal with thinking everything that applies to you applies to others?
No problems were solved.
That’s your best answer? “No problems we’re solved because I said so”? 🤣🤣🤣
No wonder you sound so angry here, lol.
No problems were solved because they weren’t solved. I know that may be hard for you to wrap your head around.
It is, very.
Eh… Leave him. He was just looking for attention; pretty sure he has every social media app under the sun on his smartphone. And he wants to make excuses that it’s for things like banking. Or work, apparently. Seems like a huge cop-out to avoid the real issue at hand; being held hostage on social media because of those addictive algorithms at play. 🙄
Simply put, he doesn’t want to take the initiative to make any changes for himself. So, he’ll defend that you can’t go through life without a smartphone anywhere. That’s how much smartphone users of today are held hostage by big tech. Again, the user is the slave, and the smartphone is their master.
Like, why don’t I have this problem with banking? Where I ‘MUST’ use a smartphone? Sure, my bank has an app, but I am not ‘forced’ to use it. I can get along quite fine with just using a web browser at home.
Seems like many people who use smartphones at every waking hour, forget the whole concept of what freewill is about. 🤣
Yeah, there ya go again. If it’s not a problem for you, it must not be a problem for anyone else. Everyone faces the same obligations and challenges. Right?
.
You act like a typical social media addict (policing comments that weren’t even directed to you; along with being unable to resist commenting). Guess it’s clear why you can’t bear to live without a smartphone, huh? Keep going. You’ll only prove my (and youmaynotknow’s) point more. But really, I thought you said you were done with me earlier. Isn’t that what you said? Well, I said my piece as far as things one can do. Time for a block. You got enough attention from me.
Enjoy keeping up with the smartphone rat race! 😂
😬 I’m writing this on my pixel 3… What happened??
Screen broke inside somehow. So, screen wouldn’t turn on. Touch worked I didn’t know where I was tapping and accidentally called 911. So, since I wasn’t using the phone for anything else than calling, I said to heck with it and went back to the flip phone.
My wife’s pixel 3 just busted without any warning a few years ago. PLEASE be sure to have backups of your things and passwords. At the time they didn’t remember their password and was only logged in on their phone. We were able to recover through my email but it wasn’t a recovery address so it was really scary.
The worst part is we already had a family password manager they weren’t using, so it was very difficult to not make it seem like an “I told you so” moment, but they’re on it now and have backups and stuff.
But yeah. We took it to some phone repair guy and he tried a bunch of different stuff. The motherboard just failed or something. No way to extract anything. He said it happened a lot with that model (well, he’s only seeing the bad ones but still).
2 weeks? That’s awesome. SM6115 and 2300mAh. My Lenovo P11 with LineageOS(GSI) also has a SM6115 with much bigger battery and only gives about 4 days idle… Are you using some technique for longer battery time?
A technique? Yeah. It’s called keeping your WIFI off and mobile data off. As in disconnect completely. You’ll regain your time and sense of autonomy, and your phone will last a lot longer on a single charge.
Same thing applied when I still had my Pixel 3 phone; it also lasted 2 weeks. I used it literally for nothing but calling. Other than that, it was left on the table untouched, and completely disconnected. Until the screen somehow broke inside and wouldn’t turn on, making me decide to just stop using smartphones altogether as they are just too fragile. Not to mention, high maintenance; which I didn’t want to deal with anymore.
Cool, not sure why it doesn’t work for me :/ I only turn on wifi about once a week to sync new books from my server since I use it as an offline ebook reader.
Haven’t had a pixel 3, but do have a pixel 2. Running stock rom because verizon and degoogled with adb and wifi off, only used for occasional quick photo shoots. The battery also only goes for about 3 days.
I’m glad I can use unlocked phones in Canada. And I was able to use a custom ROM on the Pixel 3 to remove every trace of Google. But honestly, the XP3Plus just spares me such a headache from modern tech. If I am being blunt, I don’t want to deal with anything big tech at all now. So, I am also glad I never got a career in IT. Tech of today is just so full of shit. It’s all locked down, boring and manipulative.
Smart phones are simultaneously such a wonder of human engineering and have become such a disappointment of human greed.
This whole situation has made me just care less about my phone, and use it less in my life while I use Linux PCs much more.
I don’t see my phone as a “computer” at this point, really. It’s more of a communication appliance. If I’m launching an app that’s not texting, calling, GPS, or music, it’s probably a replacement for a website I’d normally use on a PC.
Linux phones could change this though. The idea of your PC being your docked phone would work great for most use cases. Unfortunately though, even though I would love it I don’t really see the general public jumping at the chance to get back to the desktop experience. I could maybe see a little traction in the business world.
As for me, I just went back to a flip phone. So much less of a headache.
I found myself using my phone less and less too, and to be honest, I’m even feeling healthier mentally. Portable devices were supposed to improve our life, not make it worse. Big tech did something really terrible to phones :(
Well, you came to realize that the smart devices made by big tech are now designed to manipulate the user. Not benefit them. Think about it. The phones come all preloaded with social media crap. So, it’s just a tap away. And it’s all so the big tech companies can monetize their attention; never letting go of them.
Gradually, more people are realizing this. And, I, for one, am happy the education system in my country is pulling the smartphones out of the schools. The younger people just can’t function anymore, and it shows. Even the teachers are just as addicted.
Oh same here! My reduced phone usage has been part of a much larger overall improvement in my well being and being able to live in the moment and be content.
I recently saw a video from a harvard dude talking about how we NEED to be bored. It’s when we fall into our baseline mental state and start thinking through shit and figuring life out. And not doing that can lead to anxiety and depression and other bad shit. Given my experiences, I certainly cannot disagree.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=orQKfIXMiA8
Being bored… It’s how I got back into writing and doing digital art again. Along with picking up Japanese again, and getting back into archery and even beach volleyball at the park. And coincidentally, it was because I not only filtered big platforms with my PiHole server and my hosted SearXNG instance (by filtering my search results of all big tech and huge platforms), I also turned to RSS feeds to avoid any future algorithm manipulation.
The getting rid of the smartphone (for a flip phone) was just the cherry on top; as I wasn’t using it for anything else but for calling by then.
All that helped give me my creativity back. If only Ulrich could see through the charade, he’d have a lot less stress over this smartphone rat race. Because in all truth, smartphones have steadily become not worth it.
I love hearing the individual specifics. All the variety and niches that make life interesting.
It’s funny you mention getting back into Japanese, because my big focus this year has been rebuilding and upgrading my koi pond. It would be neat to learn the language, but knowing how I function I don’t think it’s in the cards for me.
Then for my more physical activities, that was carpentry and construction driven by the damn pond. :D
It’s perfect for me though. I am a builder and creator to my core, and my career is in software and electronics, so outdoor wood working perfectly offsets that.
I guess it is funny. And Japanese isn’t an easy language to pick up. But anyway, yeah. I chose to filter out all the noise online and get my life back. Going to archery today in fact.
Speaking of noise, I think just as soon as I made this account, I’m just going to delete it. Because people on here like to complain for the drama when you offer practical solutions (the solution really is removing big tech from your life at this point); as it’s a byproduct of many people conditioned to using the mainstream social media. A lot of them have the same mentality, like the original poster. It’s an endless circle jerk I don’t want to waste my time on.
Have fun with the koi pond!
I hope you have fun as well, whether your account is deleted or not!
One note about the complaints and drama in response to your suggestions though: I see your instance is lemmy.ml and that fact alone will make a lot of people respond to you with hostility, regardless of what your personal political beliefs actually are.
And I don’t know the latest of who is defederated with who, but you may also not even see some of the more decent communities.
Doesn’t matter. It all just reinforces that people, even on decentralized platforms, are losers on a hamster wheel.
This is pretty much how I am. Use my desktop for important things. On weekends I try to not even have my phone on my person and I check it a couple times a day while it stays in the bedroom like a house phone. Life is so much better without it.
I unfortunately still do like to take it with if walking/biking/driving but I wish I didn’t. Id like to have another phone that only makes phone calls for that but has my same number. Its funny. When I was a kid we didn’t even think about it because none of us had phones. Going on a random dirt bike ride miles away with nothing. Better (also unsafe) times.
Im tired of smartphones consuming everyone’s minds.
Resisting the standard smartphone addiction just makes the addiction of some others so much more apparent. My own wife is still pretty badly shackled to hers.
My one friend cant stop staring at his when driving. He lives near me and sometimes I wave at him driving by and hes like I never even saw you. Like dude, youre a fucking idiot.
Anywhere there is freedom and thoughtful development there are corporations waiting to capitalize on it and ruin it.
Framework has the chance to do something really funny…
Yeah I wish Framework, Tuxedo or Stillbook produced a Linux phone🤞
They’d have a better chance banding together with other companies and communities and pool resources into one device/os combo.
Would love to see it but that sounds significantly more difficult.
I wonder what a SIM modem expansion card would look like
I’ve seen them before but so far none first-party.
My next phone will be a Linux phone.
I was on board the Fairphone hype, and while I think they have a good message, I actually think Pine64 does exactly what they do - just without the flashy marketing. Fairphone still uses AOSP as the basis for their OSes, so there is still a risk of hardware lockout by Google. This is leaving alone other issues like no headphone jack and USB 2.0 for the latest generation’s USB-C.
This is actually the same reason I think Ecosia won’t succeed in the long term unless they build their own search engine. Luckily it looks like they’ve already started delivering results as of last month.
I should also mention that the PinePhone isn’t Scott free from criticism either. Think I read somewhere that the camera is borked because the latest firmware or software update messed with the camera module functionality. No real fix for that soon, which sucks.
Instead of waiting, you could just go to a flip phone as a temporary measure. It’s a lot less on the mind. Believe me. And you may feel in the end, that you won’t need a smartphone anymore.
Realistically, i think this idea might work well in tandem with a sort of PDA built off a Pi. I use my phone as a computer, because its a computer. The parts of my phone that i need to be a phone are calls and text, as i dont take photos almost ever. Data is nice, but im fairly certain i had seen recently a sim module for Pi devices, so i can just bake it into that instead so i still have a mobile computer.
Someone will eventually make a better phone OS, but in the short term it seems smart to move to a dumb phone and offset everything else to a device tou can actually control.
I’m not hoping on that; especially if big tech is involved in anything that becomes mainstream. The best option is just to avoid the mainstream.
That’s the real point I am making. But people who put their entire life into their phone are incapable of this. And that’s what’s depressing about all of this. Because of addictive social media algorithms, people hinge their entire lives on their phone.
I don’t get it. I’ve never been addicted to my phone. It’s just something I can look stuff up on listen to music and maybe remote to my server. Oh also navigation I used that every day when working.
Music? Get an MP3 player. Navigation? Get a paper map. Want less stress? Learn to not rely on a smartphone. This is what people fail to understand. People functioned before smartphones were even a thing. People, especially younger people are just too conditioned to think outside the box.
Or, continue to deal with the smartphone rat race. It’s that simple.
Is funny, if you talk about an iPod or even cds nowadays people think youre about 10,000 years old. There was literally nothing wrong with that tech and it kept us away from corpo prying eyes and social media addiction.
Well, I don’t care what people think. I chose it (a flip phone and MP3 Player) for my peace of mind these days.
If they want to be big tech pawns and continue their circle jerk of drama, like the original poster, then that’s fine. And if people I engage with in public can’t be bothered to pick up the phone like a normal person to talk, then I just move on. Because clearly, they’ll never step outside of their smartphone. Not that you really can engage socially with those people to begin with; as they are so addicted. Just like the drug addicts.
You and I definitely think the same. I’ve said the same to my friends that continue to slurp up corptube media and have no problem with it. Gross.
I’ve made a rule. Not only does the people I hang out with have to be able to call me and pick up the phone, but anyone who is staring at their smartphone constantly, while they are supposed to be hanging out with me, I stop hanging out with. Because clearly they are too busy wasting time on social media.
I’d have few friends if I did that :/ . so many are addicted.
I’d much rather have a few good friends who want to socialize with me, over a bunch who couldn’t give me the time of day; due to their social media addiction on the smartphones.
I’m in the same exact boat.
At some point when Google kills custom ROMs, everyone working on customs ROMs won’t have anywhere else to go other than a Linux phone.
Or they could just give up. I’ve ssen some people in my friend group who were really into custom ROMs, no GAPPS and all that. Most of them just gave up when buying a new phone. Probably because they felt like missing out on Features, Apps (Banking and such) or a good and working camera. Also it’s a lot of work to put into developing custom ROMs and probably even more for Linux Phone Operating Systems. Pleople get older, have other priorities etc… Ich would also like to use a Linux Phone as daily Driver but it is not really appealing in it’s current state. So i really hope, you are right and perople will start working on that more. I’m probably just a bit frustrated from trying to get postmarketos working on some old phones. I am really stunned about how much effort has been put into that but the systems are so closed down and different, that it is a leally hard job to cover them all.
That’s what Google wants, because people gave up on Jailbreaking iPhones because the loss of features wasn’t worth it on the other side. Google probably doesn’t love that their flagship is the best model for use with custom ROMs, plus they’re also trying to lock out Xiomi as well for what that’s worth.
While giving up is an option, someone somewhere needs to coordinate this entire OSS ecosystem to focus on singular projects. I would love to see a privacy and FOSS non-profit do exactly this.
More than the camera : 24hrs of battery life tops is what you should expect.
Exactly what they do, except it’s not a functional product. “Overpriced, underpowered, and half-finished” is the motto of pine64.
Yeah, as I alluded to at the end of my post, Pine64 has a lot of issues with making their devices actually useful.
They base a lot of their development on the community though. So if the community isn’t up to it, then virtually no one at Pine64 is.
You missed the overpriced and underpowered part. In the EU, the pinephone pro cost 600€, the same as the fairphone 6, and it’s significantly worse in every single way. Even if it actually worked, who in their right mind would pay that much for a device that’s going to run out of ram as soon as you open a few tabs in Firefox?
I doubt they’ll be fixing anything since they seem to have stopped selling them.
Also, if we go by their track record with the pinetime, PRs fixing basic functionality will be left open for years. Like how they can’t be bothered to accept fixes allowing the stopwatch to run in the background and not reset when you get a notification, let alone QoL improvements like being able to tell the time on your watch while the stopwatch is running.
Pine64 stopped selling the PinePhone Pro due to a lack of demand.
The regular PinePhone is still being sold, although a lack of a “Pro” qualifier certainly doesn’t help their optics of producing a competent phone at today’s standards.
My next phone will be a ThinkPad because it has a SIM card slot.
ThinkPads are built to last. I have one that is 17 years old running as my Pi Hole server to not only clear out all the ads and trackers online, but also any mainstream social media platforms and anything big tech related.
And as the cherry on top, a Raspberry PI to host my own SearXNG instance with a blacklist applied to that as well; to filter mainstream tech sites, big tech and also all mainstream social media platforms from my search results.
It’s been refreshing.
I bought mine (P14s AMD) this year and it works flawlessly.
Nice!
With the simcard slot can you use mobile data? If so thats amazing and I will be looking for that feature on my next device.
Probably, I will try that later.
yep you can. actually a lot of business laptops other than thinkpads also have one, it’s very useful.
I have a laptop with a SIM slot and I can use mobile data, SMS and even make voice calls. It doesn’t support 5G though. Also the mobile hardware is crap, and I get like a 10th of the speed over 4G that I do on my phone, plus it chews through battery.
So yeah, awesome feature but not as nicely implemented as I’d like. Hopefully the Thinkpad version is better!
I have been wanting a Linux phone for ages but I can’t afford a librem and pine seems to have stalled out. Just found out about Furi and now I’m wondering if it really is that good. It’s still expensive but it at least doesn’t look like it’d choke on running a calculator app.
wow I didn’t knew about FuriPhone
You might have better luck looking at the distros themselves. They’re not exactly great on any device yet, but there are cases where mobile Linux distros work at least equally or a little better on select Android phones than they do on dedicated Linux phones.
I don’t agree!
A linux phone, or any other open source alternative, has ALWAYS been more important than the ones we’ve got. Being locked into an eco-system, has always been bad for the regular user. It’s about companies controlling people and the market, and it should never have to be a choice between a rock and a hard place.
I really wish that the Firefox phone had gained more support. And I wish that there will soon be a linux-phone for the regular person, all over the world.
But I guess people in general keep choosing to lock themselves in, by using Google and Apple…
How is it bad for the user? Most people don’t care and enjoy using their phones. Is it hurting them using iPhone or Android?
I already wrote why it is bad. I could mention even more areas. Don’t you know, it that why you ask? Or are you just trying to pick a fight?
It’s not a simple matter of choice. Most people aren’t invested into open source, they just want to get by and do their mundane things. Most people aren’t even aware of all the privacy stuff or abusive practices of big business, it’s usually some more outspoken tech savvy person that decides to expose what the big corps are doing. So using open source is not a choice, like you would be just choosing your preferred cereal brand, but both a technical and political act. And most people are just into the system, they aren’t aware of all malicious things around them.
Not only that, but also when companies feel threatened, they start imposing new technical and legal restrictions to make using OSS harder. Since they have more control over the whole production supply chain of devices, they have more cost effective options and even partnership with hardware vendors to make using OSS very hard or impossible.
Android has been fairly “open” to the extent that I could do all the things I felt were important. But it’s heading in a concerning direction.
KaiOS 4.x just dropped with Fx 128 I think. You will be on an underpowered flip phone, but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing…
Android is Linux. It uses a Linux kernel paired with a BSD based user land. Also there is an AOSP version of Android which is Android without all the Google bits. LineageOS and some other security oriented firmwares derive from it. That isn’t to say Google are necessarily happy about this entirely but at the same time, they open sourced most of Android and probably see it as a useful antitrust defence and the impact of flashed devices barely more than background noise.
The issue of bootloaders is an orthogonal matter since Linux or not does not mean bootloader or not - many black box devices use Linux but you won’t be flashing them any time soon - TVs, set top boxes etc. I would argue that regardless of OS, there should be a right to repair law (e.g. in Europe) that allows people to maintain devices beyond their warranty. And if Samsung et al don’t want to do it, then they should have an obligation to unlock devices upon request.
I forsee a requirement that only “approved” OS are allowed to connect to mobile networks, citing security issues.
Jesus not this again 🤦
It’s the exact opposite.
ASOP is open-source, it’s in the name.
Google’s Android has been less and less open-source every year, they’ve been replacing AOSP apps with their own and vendor-locking them to their GooglePlayAppsWhatever system (hence microG), shunning away the open-source variants they replace.
I mean open source is that. The only reason open source exist is to be able to close some parts of its source (i.e. compatibility with privative software). Google promoted open source because it allowed them to close it whenever they want it. The Trojan Horse was always there, at plain sight.
That’s why it’s important to distinguish free software from open software. In most cases open source is just a label that companies can use to look friendlier.
Wait… they opened it so they can close it?
Yeah, it depends on the specific licence clauses. AOSP uses Apache Licence 2.0 which is normally regarded as a free software licence but it also could be regarded as Open software as by the OSS definition.
The problem with this licence is that it allows distribution of binaries based on the original source code without having to share the source or even changing the licence.
This means that Google could effectively take the entire (some part of Google Android is already close sources) AOSP in the current state (with the contributions of thousand of individual developers) and use it to start developing a close source Android OS project. Since Google are the main developers of Android and they could shift OG Android into a closed environment that could be no longer compatible with the old one. Google also is the main provider of security fixes. Since phone manufacturera want to able to run Google Android (stock Android) this could make old Android versions (before privatization) incompatible with phones.
For example let’s say that Google Android changes the main OS ABI or API. Then programs made for Google Android wouldn’t be compatible with other Android versions.
This would basically make users decide or you stay with Google Android (close sourced) and you trust use because “do no evil ;)”. Or you stay with your free software versions of Android that are no longer compatible with current Android programs basically forcing you to have an OS that’s not able to run “common” programs, basically isolating you from the mainstream smart phone use cases like having banking apps, mainstream chat apps, etc.
You think if they used another licence it would be any different? Countless open source projects have a GPLv3 + proprietary licence which is way more evil than Apache - they poison the open source with GPLv3 so no competitor can contribute without revealing their changes while they themselves can use the proprietary licence. e.g. Trolltech and QT for example but there are many others.
And frankly you should be blessed that you have a fully fledged, open source phone OS you may fork and build from. The OP wants a Linux phone OS and AOSP is a Linux phone OS. There are many forks of Android, closed and open that wouldn’t exist if Google had just decided to be proprietary from the get go. They were under no compulsion to do this but they did. If you have used LineageOS, or GrapheneOS for example then you are a beneficiary of this. You are completely at liberty to have a de-Googled modern phone OS powered by Linux right now.
QT uses one or another, either GPLv3/LGPLv3/GPLv2 or privative. Poisoning open source? If you refer to the fact that they allow a closed source licence, yes I also dislike that. But how is GPLv3 poisoning anything? If you want to use and modify/contribute to the QT project then you have to maintain user freedoms unless you pay QT for their rights. In the end term, the user is always respected since contributions to base qt are always free software. With only a GPL licence then the developers would need to share source code for their distributions. The Multiple-Licence allows third party developers to gain “fully-paid-ownership” which allows them to close source it.
Also since QT it’s allowed to be shiped with LGPL third party devs can close source their parts of code that link against QT.
So it’s basically an interesting way of having a permissible licence while keeping the QT base fully libre.
Probably you refer to the availability that open source philosophy gives. Yeah, that is the principal difference between libre software and open software. Open software advocates for fully openness for the sake of the developers no matter what they want to make later with it, libre software advocates for the source code of the end user.
the vast majority of commenters here either have no direct experience with a Linux phone or have seen some shallow youtube “review” of a dude swiping the same two screens left/right and extrapolate a buncha shit that has no contact with reality.
presently, and in the foreseeable future, linux phones aren’t an android alternative, they are just linux on the phone, i.e. they allow you to do linux shit on a handheld device.
like, the bleeding edge version of any variant (plasma mobile, gnome, phosh) isn’t even close to an Android phone from like 2015, let alone a modern one.
and that’s before we touch on the pillars of mobile tech like fluidity, battery efficiency, reliability, etc., none of those things are even in a remotely passable state, not to mention - using the thing to make calls. you are better off forgetting about the camera, as well.
and the reason is simple, not only is there a gargantuan discrepancy between evil corp’s resources and the predominantly unpaid enthusiasts, each dev team’s reimplementing shit that’s already solved on another platform. apple doesn’t have to do that. google as well.
then there’s the idea that the javascript-backed Gnome - that has issues running fluidly on super-capable hardware - is the basis on a low-power device on which the linux mobile phone experience is built. reinventing solved shit, but in a stupid way - THREE FINGER swipe on a phone, really?
although there’s a solid app base, the apps that are supposedly mobile friendly are few and far between, most are just downright unusable on a vertical screen and dog help you if launch an electron app. firefox, even with pmOS patches (useless without) is tiresome to use. you can forget about dating, ubering, banking, or even just using a messenger everybody else does.
if you’re squeamish about flashing custom recoveries and ROMs, the e.g. pmOS install process is way, way, way more involved and failure prone. if you go with ubuntu touch or mobian, even more so.
finally, if you’re talking about a device that you’ve grown accustomed to to the extent that you’re using it subconsciously, swiping and multitasking and such whilst walking and dodging other pedestrians - no such thing exists over here.
I’m just tying this up because I keep reading about “switching”, people are either delusional or misinformed, there’s nothing (yet) to switch to.
get a couple of $50 ex-flaghips to play with, flash lineageOS on one and pmOS on the other and that should hold you over for a coupla years.
There is always the option of waydroid to get android apps running on Linux. It’s not a great solution, but a first stopgap measure to use services only available as apps.
that’s not a thing, presently. the OS has trouble running on its own and handling “native” apps, let alone introducing an emulation to the mix.
of course, it can and does work to some extent - but not one where you depend on it, like you do with modern phones.
That’s a security nightmare
Not to mention navigation and using the car screen.
Osmin on PinePhone was… Tolerable. I’m just pleasantly surprised it worked okay with GPS being integrated into the modem.
Takes a long time to get a GPS fix (like old standalone GPS units), but it’s possible to provide A-GPS data to it.
I’m not critiquing your post, I’m just clarifying to a buncha people who think otherwise that it’s not an option.
as to “it needs to accelerate”, I have a grim outlook. the only way it’s gonna do that is if there significant cash behind it and if everything non-essential is to be trimmed so that a functional platform can emerge. in our ever-enshittifying, greater-fool-theory investment climate, it’s doubtful there loose capital with such an agenda, and I doubt such a thing is even on the horizon.
same way with “desktop linux”; like, can you image where we’d be if every development effort is geared towards just one DE/WM, instead of tons of duplicated efforts and abandoned paths? yeah, good things eventually emerge from all the disjointed chaos, but eventually. and our joint assessment is that we’re running outta time for the “eventual” part.
It’s not great but lots of people are using it today. There are multiple entire businesses built on it. It may not fit your needs but it obviously does for many. And it’s only going to get better.
see, this is the thing I’m talking about. your comment indicates that it’s possibly a viable alternative to OS developed by the wealthiest corps in the world, for 15+ years and people are like “ok, there’s options”…
it is nowhere near that. it’s linux on a mobile device, and that’s such a humongously, vastly different thing than an alternative and that should be the first and foremost thing said. same with the “android is linux” bozos in every thread (it really, really isn’t) who are not helping the issue, at all.
and then we can dwell on whether it’s usable or not in its present state.
It already is. It’s just a matter of porting it over to a different form factor.
Eh, for desktop I’d say we’re just about there now. For people who don’t use their computers for much more than gaming and web browsing Bazzite works pretty great. Helped a friend who doesn’t do much more than that build a PC and install an OS and they seem to be doing fine with it, no complaints so far.
What dating apps work in Andorid? Lol
What?? PmOS and Ubuntu Touch both have very easy, foolproof installers. No idea about Mobian to be fair.
I’ve been using only Linux-based mobile OS’s since my first smartphone, and while you’re right for a lot of the new breed made for the Pinephone and Librem, Sailfish OS and Ubuntu Touch are both perfectly useable for lots of people. Both have a decent app ecosystem and both support running Android apps to fill in the gaps (I’ve used both, the proprietary Jolla one is about as good as it gets and is practically seamless for like 99% of Android apps).
Of course there’s going to be people who will respond to me to say they can’t possibly switch because of that one app that they and 5 other people in the world use, as though they’re in any way relevant to what I’ve said. Just the same as when I post about people switching to Linux on the desktop and there’s always that one Fusion 360 user who thinks everyone in the world also uses Fusion and so Linux can’t possibly ever work for anyone.
UT and mobian need to be on stock, ancient versions of android prior to flashing. that is a challenge in an of itself, just check out what it takes to go from lineage A15 to stock A9. also, “easy” and “foolproof”, please - you’re not the target audience I’m addressing.
To be fair, Fusion 360 is pretty good… I hate to love it, to miss it. I can’t wrap my head around the work flow in FreeCAD.
But more often I am shocked by people saying they have to stay on windows because of Office… Like, the fuck? MS doesn’t even want you to have that installed on your computer anymore and is pushing all web based, but that is going to keep you on Windows?? Nothing there is particularly hungry, just put it in a VM if you absolutely can’t get by with one of the several great alternatives.
Yeah, my point isn’t that F360 sucks or that FreeCAD is awesome, it’s that basically no one uses either of these apps in the grand scheme of things. Doing CAD is just not something most people do. To be honest, the same goes for Photoshop which is another often-touted point, as though even a small percentage of PC users ever go near Photoshop!
I agree with your sentiment entirely. Hell, I do really like F360, but it isn’t enough for me to go back to using windows.
In most situations, especially ones typical users are going to run into, I’ve found the alternatives to be much easier for me to learn and use. I fucking love Krita for the image editing I need an image editor for. From my experience, 95%+ people would have a better time if they weren’t blindly sticking to proprietary software they think they “need”.
This seems less of a problem in the US, but a lot of stuff here is done with some apps that won’t run on these distributions.
Banks have created identity provides which now the government also uses, and they’re locked down to Android and iOS. Without these, making payments or do other stuff you need your identity for gets hard. And there are used by hundreds of thousands of people daily.
If they can run, I’d switch over instantly, but now I’m pretty much stuck.
Thank you. I get what OP is saying, but in general I’m so over the constant blind Linux fanboy hype train, like it’s the solution to everything. One of the reasons I can’t really stand to be on this instance unless I see something important enough to hit the front page. I’ll take a remotely functional windows dist with customized features over pretty much any linux OS anyday in order to not struggle to complete the most basic, essential tasks.
Life’s too short to spend glued to Stackexchange instead of actually getting shit done.
What are these “most basic, essential” tasks you’re struggling with? Outside of trying to get Discord to screen share nicely with Baulders gate 3 and the one time I accidentally overwrote the python 3 install and broken it, it has been pretty pain free. And I code with both .NET and with Android Studio, I do plenty of gaming, and some photo editing. All things beyond the most basic of tasks and I rarely run into issues.
Have I broken a Linux install? Yep. But I’ve also bricked a handful of Windows systems poking around in the registry.
That says you’re already way beyond the non tech savvy user.
Spoken like someone that’s never actually tried Linux. Enjoy your electron start menu, shill.
Would a pixel phone running GOS be future proofed, or one day Google can just push out some hidden updates that prevent you from running it at all?
Well if your not running Google’s OS. how can they push updates. My issue with GrapheneOS is the trackers. It well not warn if trackers are following you and if you have trackers you well spam everyone with unknown tracker following you.
Tracker blocking uses flawed heuristics. The only methods that are typically used are static lists which is just badness enumeration. There is nothing stopping the app/service from sending the data down a different domain that isn’t blocked or a domain that can’t be blocked without breaking the service.
Adding to that, how do we even decide what is a “tracker”? What is the definition? Some might say it includes all telemetry or crashlytics. Are those inherently malicious?
I don’t think it would make sense for GrapheneOS to include something flawed like a “tracker blocker” that lulls people into a false sense of security. They use robust and meaningful methods for improving the privacy and security of the OS.
I mean Google could theoretically decide to stop open development entirely or lock the bootloader, and that would be the end of that.
Currently i am looking for a Jolla phone commerce.jolla.com/…/jolla-community-phone
They are private company but seems to be very user friendly and carefull with their dev community. What do you think about them folks?
not bad at all, i saw it on thelinuxexperiment video and I like it
I find it ironic that their webpage has meta and shopify trackers…
I’ll switch away from Android when there’s a good alternative, but I’m not very technical and need something with a nice GUI and an easy installation process. Hopefully Linux will offer something like that someday, but I don’t think it’s there yet.
Meh, this will just push more people to not install gapps. None of these issues affect folks who don’t install gapps.
The best apps are on fdroid, anyway. If I was a Dev I wouldn’t bother putting it on Google play, anyway
While I get what you mean, I think people who make their income from android apps will definitely want to put them on Google play to charge money :P
Maybe. The only apps I ever bought were off Google Play, anyway. Threema and OsmAnd.
It absolutely does, if you actually read the OP.
How? Nobody buys Samsung or OnePlus locked down crap anyway
How delusional are you? Samsung holds over 20% of the worldwide mobile phone market, only beat by Apple by a few percent.
And that is ignoring the obvious trend from Google to lock down the Android ecosystem to only them and their partners. If they have their way, they will make 3rd party ROMs nearly impossible, block all 3rd party apps, and close the door on fdroid. Maybe what has been done so far doesn’t affect you, but if no one gets in their way, it absolutely will and soon.
I don’t even know how to answer that. Nothing in the OP has anything to do with Google apps.
Samsung is the largest android manufacturer by a wide margin.
Is it possible to have my normal shitty samsung for stuff that wont work on a linux phone, and have like a pinephone for simple calls and stuff, but have them both use the same phone # ? I doubt.
Cuz when hiking or something I like a phone for safety but I dont want distractions.
It’s possible using VoIP. Have done it before.
Can you explain how to do this? I’d make the switch, honestly. Not a super techy person, but I’m willing to learn if it means a Linux phone.
Just sign up with your service of choice and log in on whatever devices you want.
Someone suggested jmp.chat elsewhere.
I just hope that this time we go Free Software and not committing the mistake of going Open Source for a 3rd time (BSD/UNIX AT&T; Android/Google). Unless we want to fall with the same stone yet once more.
Android going Open Source allowed Google to close Android once it got mature. It’s a Trojan Horse, yet people still go Open Source and then complain when some company closes their source.
Though we can’t use the android name and logo, the software that was open so far is still open for use.
Take that part and continue building from there
How exactly does Free, non-open-source software prevent that?
Because the license allows the closing of the code whenever a coder wants. BSD has that problem. It gives so much freedom that it can go against freedom itself. Microsoft took Kerberos (BSD), forked it and extended it. The MS fork gained ground against the BSD one and MS closed the source when its fork was the most used, pushing out the original BSD version.
I get where this argument is coming from, but I don’t think there are meaningful differences in the success of gpl or other copyleft licenses, vs permissive ones (except maybe cases where someone was willing and able to enforce the gpl in court). Companies are no less capable of doing EEE with copyleft. There are also plenty of permissively licensed software projects that have gained a lot of popularity, just like some gpl ones have.
The difference in traction between Linux and BSD probably has more to do with the same kinds of forces that allowed Android to succeed and then crowd Windows phones out of the market.
My bad for no specifying I didn’t use a very specific naming indeed. Normally Open Source it’s used for source code that’s not copylefted or copylefted software that does not defend user freedom (Although Open Source OSS does not say that, indeed GPL by the OSS definition is open source software). On the other hand Free software is commonly used for GPL like software (although most of the so called open source software could also be named free software). Also free software does not refer to “gratis” software. For a better explanation you can check this and this.
Anyways what I wanted to point out is that software that protects user freedoms and is copylefted (like GPL) protect users because the source code is protected from being closed if it is distributed.
On the other hand some open source software (open as open access), like ASOP, give open access without any protection for the user freedoms. For example the BSD-3-Clause.
I prefer to use the term Free Software instead of Open Software, because it points out that the whole meaning behind the licence is to maintain source code freedoms. On the other hand Open software seems to defend the fact that the source code is open but not its freedoms.
Both OSS Open source and FSF Free software definition refer to mostly the same set of licences, which in order to distinguish you would need to check the particular details like copyleft, etc.
By the way, outside of our brawl down below, I do agree with you 100% that having a fully functional and modern Linux phone would be an amazing thing to have.
It would be cool to see people move beyond the standard smartphone and into some sort of hotspot and linux based palmtop or umpc like setup
I had something like that in the early 2000s with a nokia n800 and it worked well enough I’m sure it would be even better now
Check out postmarketOS, a real Linux distro for phones with a 10-year life cycle goal and mainline kernel support. It’s not daily-driver ready for everyone, but it frees you from Google and OEM lockdowns. If we want an open mobile future, this is the project worth supporting.
Sounds good. I wish there was something for samsung s23s.
This looks great. If we collectively threw some funding behind a few worthy projects, even at 1-10€ per person, it could really accelerate development.
Donation page link for those who’d also like to send some cash their way: opencollective.com/postmarketos
Thanks for the suggestion! I was about to ask what non-Android Linux options are available.
I’m about a tech zero skill but I am at Lemmy for THIS news. Thank you for resisting complete shitification hegemony. Resist!
i still think that the Linux Mobile ecosystem is bad(even worse then Desktop Linux), i want it to happen and become as good as Desktop Linux.
also i am pretty sure Google cannot fully get rid of AOSP, especially Android is put on any phone that isn’t Google.
tho even before the Goolog fuckery these things where there.
Samsung required a a leaked program to Unlock its bootloader(Odin which is proprietary), and would trip Knox.
Xiaomi required a wait time to unlock its bootloader, and the unlocking bootloader thingy is proprietary.
Banking apps wouldnt work with root and stuff, even before the Play Integrity API forcing thingy.
indeed, android has been a shit show for the last couple of months and its not looking good.
i was thinking that this will make rooting and by extension custom ROMs prevalent again which hopefully will take us back to the golden age of android modding, but be careful of what you wish for.
I DON’T WANNA USE STOCK ANDROID. DON’T WANNA DON’T WANNA DON’T WANNA DON’T WANNA DON’T WANNA DON’T WANNA
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/6a737879-4c44-4996-b2ba-4b1252a4dec9.webp">
Custom ROMs and rooting won’t solve any of these problems.
i know that’s why i’m seething right now, we are hopeless since custom roms and root users are a fraction of a fraction that is people who install apk outside google
removing the ability to unlock bootloaders is just another negative
I just bought the Fairphone 6 with /e/os. I am pleasantly surprised with how many apps work just fine.
The point of this post is that there are worrying trends that threaten the entirety of the Android ecosystem. Not necessarily today, but in the near future.
What’s e/os?
Degoogled android
But it’s still android?
Yeah it is. Just “deGoogled unGoogled” as they say
Thanks for the info!
Is that what Graphene and Lineage are too? (sorry I am a noob to this)
I also don’t know them in depth, but from what I do know:
Lineage is a tweaked AOSP, it doesn’t have google apps by default but can use MindTheGapps or microG
/e/OS is either their own system or heavily modded android, iirc it uses microG by default (mG is by /e/ i think)
Graphene is a privacy-focused android mod that can use googl.e apps, but in a sandbox. Basically a separate space, where they don’t have any access to outside data
So basically they all lack google by default, but with different ways to use apps that use google
Thanks, a friend in Signal just told me similar. The different phrasing helps.
It’s besically android without the Google parts.
While I support the continued progress of real Linux phones, have a Pinephone, and even wasted all of yesterday trying to make a working build of Armbian for retro handheld I have; I think it’s more practical to focus on open Android distributions, getting more phones out that can support multi os’s and buying those, and growing a robust app market system that can compete with Google Play.
F-Droid is almost there, but being open-source doesn’t mean something has to be free of charge. F-Droid should be extended, or possibly an additional app manager be established, that still promotes software freedom and privacy, but allows for devs to charge for their apps as well.
I just laid out how the entire Android ecosystem as a whole is in jeopardy. That was the entire point of the post.
Nothing that has or will happen can stop the parts of Android that are already open from remaining open. Yes there will be fewer choices. Yes this means alternative ROM makers will have no choice but to shoulder more of the development burden themselves. And yes this means there’s going to be significantly fewer open Android devices and new manufacturers will have to make the intentional effort to make and sell new devices that are free by design - a few of which already exist.
But no matter how many obstacles open Android has, the thing you’re ignoring is that it’s still in a far better place than mobile Linux. For a start, any device that respects rights enough to be Linux compatible will automatically be compatible with free and degoogled versions of Android as well.
What these growing problems are is a galvanizing call. Samsung, Xiaomi, and OnePlus, and Google were never our friends. Whatever their imperfections, at least Pine64, Purism, BQ, Planet Computers, Murena, Fairphone, F(x)tec, Volla, and SHIFT have sold hardware that was rights respecting by design. We need more companies or other organizations to do that, and we need to choose to buy and promote more devices like that.
And as that happens more, open Android and Linux are going to benefit equally, but there’s no getting around the fact that for now and the forseeable future, the open Android variants are still far more mature, far more feature-complete, way closer to the kind of user experience the vast majority of people expect, and far more established.
And again, probably the biggest missing thing we need there is an app marketplace that competes more directly with Google Play, that gives more devs good incentives to want to switch away from Play.
Not really relevant if future development stalls.
The thing you’re ignoring is that Linux is continually progressing and improving while Android is regressing.
The hardware is irrelevant when the software is fundamentally broken.
No, in a lot of ways the open Android roms keep getting better, despite every possible obstacle being thrown in their way. It’s easy to make a mature platform sound like it has “stalled”, when you’re comparing it to alternatives that are still so unusably bad that they have nowhere to go but up.
Do what you want, but get real. If you care more about making your ideals happen, maybe stop debating internet randos so feverishly, and start making pull requests.
It’s not “stalled”, it’s regressing. I explained all of this in detail in the OP.
My brother in Christ, you came in here and debated me in my thread. I am not debating with myself here…
Did it ever occur to you that everyone is not a coder?
Is identity verification for publishing android apps that bad? Both the app store and play store already have your billing information since you have to pay to publish an app anyway right?
What does “that bad” mean? It gives Google ultimate control over what apps you can install on “your” phone. Essentially bringing it on PAR with Apple.
There are (currently) ways to distribute apps outside of Play Store on Android. So no. I don’t even have a Google account anymore for them to associate with my payment information.
Only if you’re using Android, though. It makes sense to me that Google would want publishers of Android apps to be verified, since Google would face backlash if any attacker could publish Android apps anonymously.
…Yeah? That was my point. It’s time to move away from Android.
I don’t think you understand. This is the way it’s always been, since the beginning of Android.
It may be what Google wants; as a user it is absolutely not what I want. It is not any of Google’s business what I install on my device. If they want to provide it as a service and give users the option to opt out of it, I’m totally fine with that. As is, it sure looks like they just want more control, the same way Apple has. I’d be very unsurprised to see Google following in their footsteps in short order and requiring 27% of their income in order to be “verified”, or blocking apps that compete with them, or making it so God Damn frustrating that developers just quit, as they have on the Play Store.
Google has continuously faced bad press for having a nearly non-existent quality control for their play store. Apps loaded with malware, or updated to become malware, are super common. The majority will attempt to inject ads every-fucking-where, like press back, SURPRISE AD! Press home, AD TIME! Close the ad, HERE’S AD 2 ELECTRIC BOOGALOO!
This is about installing APKs, not apps downloaded from the Play Store. Which, by the way, also have no quality control. Publish a YouTube downloader and it gets taken down in 3 seconds. Make an app to steal people’s data, perhaps even steal their money? Literally not an issue.
Google doesn’t want you to be able to install a secure open source YouTube client that can ignore ads, or modified apps that can bypass ads they serve that 3rd party app developers put in. They do not give a fuck about attackers getting all your shit. They also don’t want you using NextCloud if you could be using Google Drive - so rest assured, Nextcloud fuckery will now continue on APKs too, not just the Play Store verifications.
In all of this, Apple is in some ways better than what Google wants to do - only because Apple makes money off all devices that run iOS. So they don’t really care if you use something like NextCloud instead of iCloud - they already made money off you, anything else is a bonus. Of course they do still want to keep you paying for shit and they don’t want to be sued by Google for allowing ad-free youtube apps, so they’re only marginally better.
Oh shutting down side loading? yeah no nvr mind i thought this only applied to the play store. how is that even legal, its blatantly monopolistic.
I dunno, ask Apple, they’ve been getting away with it for 20 years.
Maybe there should be legislation around what qualifies as a general pupose computer and some requirements therein.
I could see it being useful for distinguishing the rules for servers and pcs and phones from consoles and such.
Or maybe the legislation says that an OEM must allow you to install whatever software on your computer that you want? And disable whatever security mechanisms you want?
Which is fine for their store. But one of the things that used to make Android a more free ecosystem was that you could load apps from 3rd-party sites or stores, including stuff like F-Droid. Some of these apps do things that Google in particular won’t like - i.e. circumventing ads/analytics - so having them control who gets signing keys is not good
At this point, the “best” solution might be buying one of those SBC (single board computers) that also has an android image, like orangePi or ODroid and “build” the rest of the phone on top of it. Might be the only way people can get a screen smaller than 6" as well. I say Android in this case because it has access to all the apps without needing emulation or Waydroid
OOOOORRRRR, just buy an used older phone that you know is easy to unlock and install a custom rom. Did that with a motorola G6, am happy with lineage. Not the fastest phone by a long shot, especially as newer versions of many apps just introduce more bloat because fuck you, but perfectly usable for messaging and video watching. Also has a headphone jack!
I mean Android itself is the main problem here…
There’s already a project like the first thing you wrote, SPIRIT, built on top of a rpi cm5, currently in ideas and mb design stage
Ill address your issues with Android and then ill give my issues with mobile Linux:
1
>1. The closing of development of an increasing number of components in AOSP. Yeah this is bad but not even devastating for custom roms like GOS or LineageOS
2
>2. Samsung, Xiaomi and OnePlus have removed the option of bootloader unlocking on all of their devices. I suspect Google is not far behind. I highly doubt Google would lock the bootloader, they still make the most friendly devices for custom roms (yes even after all they have done). Also Samsung hasnt acturally allowed custom roms for a while now while Xiaomi doesn’t either.
3
>3. Google implementing Play Integrity API and encouraging developers to implement it. Notably the EU’s own identity verification wallet requires this, in stark contrast to their own laws and policies, despite the protest of hundreds on Github. Even if a developer used the Play Integrity API it doesn’t mean custom roms or other operating systems like GOS arent supported. I use GOS and have had no issues with play integrity, there are no incentives to require a certified Android device.
4
> 4. And finally, the mandatory implementation of developer verification across Android systems. Yes, if you’re running a 3rd-party OS like GOS you won’t be directly affected by this, but it will impact 99.9% of devices, and I foresee many open source developers just opting out of developing apps for Android entirely as a result. Sideloading isnt going anywhere and tbh I doubt this will be strongly enforced, Google will always have the threat of root resurfacing. You dont even need root to get rid of Google Play services and install MicroG.
Conclusion
> Android as we know it is dead. And/or will be dead very soon. We need an open replacement. That seems highly unlikely, even with everything Google has done the fact is AOSP is the only mature open source mobile project.
Now ill get to my issues with mobile Linux:
Hardware
As of now there is no good hardware and no plans by any company to make good hardware in the future.
UI
Mobile Linux interfaces are at least a decade behind Android, clunky and bearly usable. Btw yes I have tried them recently, they suck. For the most part mobile Linux interfaces are made by developers who would never acturally daily drive them.
Software support
Not a lot of Linux software supports arm and those that do either don’t work with touchscreens or have them as an afterthought.
UX
The software that does work generals isnt designed with small screens in mind and are very often scaled down desktop apps
Basic functionality
Basic functionality is absolutely not there on Linux phones, things like calling and texing either require commands or outright dont work at all. For example according to the Postmarketos Wiki in order to change volume on a Pixel 3a during a call you need to manually change it with commands. Genuenly what the fuck, if im on an important call the other person isnt going to wait several hours for me to fiddle with the terminal. If I need to send a text now im not waiting several hours until it works.
Security
Mobile Linux has all the security issues as Linux with no mitigations, except phones contain a lot more personal information and are more likley to be a target for data extraction.
Not yet. It’s a concerning trend. It’s certainly put a strain on their already-limited resources.
…why not?
They had unlocked bootloaders. Now they don’t. That’s all I can say about that.
That’s…exactly what that means. That’s the entire point.
Oh well I suppose if you have no issues, no one else is either? No. You’re just not using the apps in question. But once again, it is a concerning growing trend. More and more apps are implementing it.
Why would Google lie about this?
As you might have read in the first sentence of the OP, I was not suggesting installing it now.
My point is that the issues with mobile Linux is so numerous and severe that the timeframe for when the average person could use it is at least seven years or more.
Graphene team already did a blog post about the lock down of AOSP and how it will significantly hinder their ability to support future hardware, since drivers was a huge part of what was moved closed source by google. Those open source drivers was the big driving force for why Graphene basically only supported Pixel phones. They made it significantly harder for people using AOSP derivatives currently to upgrade to a new phone when it is time.
Sure but the GOS team has openly said that even with everything they’re still going full steam ahead on Google Pixel support. People thought GOS was going to die but we know now that it was severely overblown.
True, GOS team has not quit, but we don’t know yet what the consequences will be. They have said hardware support going forward will take more time than it used to. We do not know how much time that will take. We don’t know what functionality might be lost in the process.
Just because GOS didn’t throw in the towel doesn’t mean that they won, or that the fight is even over. No one knows what roadblocks Google’s next steps will cause either.
Google has all but officially declared that they look at custom roms and anything other than Google’s official android to be akin to piracy and hacking (something similar to a mod-chip from the old playstation days). They are actively trying to start an arms race between their prevention tactics and the FOSS community’s way around those tactics (or win it before it starts), just like with adblockers.
Android is Linux
:sigh:
?
About as much as the burger I ate yesterday still was one this morning
GNU doesn’t make Linux, Linux; the kernel does. Android uses the Linux kernel. Hence it is a Linux operating system.
So what is our alternative? I get that we need to start working on an actual viable open platform, but it seems like the difficulty is mostly hardware and device manufacturers locking the bootloader at this point, isn’t it? So is that where we need to go? To make the “Raspberry Pi” of mobile phones?
I’m happy to help, I just don’t have the free time to spearhead a whole project.
Not necessarily. If the software is made viable, the hardware will be the easy part.
But isn’t that your point: that bootloaders are getting locked down by OEMs and so custom software is being made non-viable?
There will necessarily be Linux-specific hardware. And there already is.
I got a Sailfish OS last year seeing the writing on the wall already with all the bootloader locking. It’s been bumpy to put it lightly, but at least it has Android apps to help get over the gaping holes of basic missing apps like a halfway decent XMPP client. …But at least native WhisperFish lets you get around the lack of Signal on most non-duopoly platforms.
The problem with them is that they’re only available on their respective site. And so they have limited exposure. If they were available at a local store, then the people would notice them. Same with Fairphones, Frameworks and with any brand that is pro-environment.
Lets just load a e sim on the steamdeck and call it a day
I’ve been thinking about this and I wonder if Linux can have more success if we have pocket computers that gradually add phone functions instead of trying to have phone hardware work with a system that isn’t made for phone-like experience in general.
How could that be a more successful approach when people aren’t already carrying pocket computers as they are phones?
What I really hope for is a way to install linux on any mobile device, be it Samsung, Google, One Plus or whatever, like we do with Linux… with linux it doesn’t matter which brand is your laptop… it always works, and if we can replicate that it means true freedom and also it means linux mobile phones are gonna be more fun and broader than desktop computers… cuz everyone uses smart phones.
tl;dr: buy a second hand pixel 8 and install GrapheneOS. It’s Android, but it will get you through a few years while you wait for postmarketOS to become viable as a daily driver.
Hi! I’ve been looking into getting GOS on a Pixel lately. I was wondering if there is a reason you recommend the pixel 8 over the pixel 9?
Just cheaper.
I’m interested in switching to GOS but my main question is regarding photos. Pixel cameras are quite good but mainly because of Google’s post treatment of the files. Are the photos still good on GOS?
Yes, GOS’s camera app is very good. And if you still don’t like it, you can use the proprietary Google camera app, with it’s internet connection disabled. In GOS, when you don’t give an app internet access, it cannot even connect to local services like Google Play Services, if installed, which is not the case in many other custom ROMs.
Why would they be different?
No. Incorrect. You should actually read it. GOS is Android. Android is the problem.
I said it’s android.
Its going to be a problem but it’s not yet.
I’m probably going to spam this around a bit, since most people don’t seem to know about it, but a reminder that FuriLabs has a (GNU+)Linux phone with decent spec.s and the ability to run Android app.s (from what I’ve heard) pretty decently: furilabs.com
Biggest drawback is it’s based on Halium. Usual growing pains of a new product/company apply but apparently the company is pretty responsive and their dev.s have worked with customers to get things like calling working with the carrier and bands of their country where it hasn’t worked before so improvements move pretty quickly.
Collection of different experiences I’ve variously seen online over the last year or so:
I don’t own one, myself, so I can’t give any personal experience but I’ve seen it around for a few years now but most people don’t seem to even know about it. Maybe there’s a reason for that? But none I’ve ever seen anyone say.
I’ve been a mobile dev for many years, I fell in love with the Nokia 810 with maemo which kinda got me started, but I never had one myself. I moved to OpenMoko and saved to buy a Neo. But then Android became big with Google’s support and all companies rushing to have an alternative to iOS with the iPhone. Back then when Android meant openness. As much as I loved the openmoko project it had plenty of issues as a daily driver, so eventually I cracked and moved to Android with a Galaxy S2, ah, the innocence back then when one could think Google was actually different… Actually doing good and creating a great Linux phone.
I absolutely agree on all your points. It is time to kill Android as a free/open source idea if it is not dead yet. And you know what, Linux is absolutely ready to substitute anything as a mobile platform. It needs more polishing in terms of UI but Maemo nearly 20 years ago already offered a great UX IMO. Thank you Microsoft and all Nokia management for destroying it.
Now, I say Linux as a mobile platform is ready… But we all know it doesn’t lack problems. What are those? The problems come from anticompetitive practices, locked hardware for chips, drivers and so on, specially all related to phone networking. The other main problem is apps which is only a small issue with all the ways there are available to make android apps run on Linux, that is… Until google comes to fuck things up with the points #3 and #4 you make. Those are the biggest threats right now, and it’s no wonder Google is doing that. They are preventing the possibility of competition arising. Like I said, I have been a dev for many years, it absolutely sucks the path all tech is taking. But there are solutions, just need to have proper anticompetitive practices and protections… At least in Europe we kinda do, but more needs to be done.
The main point is, Linux as an alternative is kinda ready, if only there was a real posible competition to be had outside of being incredibly rich.
Google’s ongoing Android lockdown feels like the end of an era, with the understanding that eras don’t end overnight. They fade away slowly.
It is.
The discussions here are quite passionate so a bit of a reality check :
“PineStore has also discontinued the PinePhone Pro which was talked about in the last recent blog post. TLDR, sales were low”. pine64.org/2025/08/16/august_2025/#pinephone-pro-…
So… people here say they do want one, but clearly not like that one.
Also recently the crowd funding of www.indiegogo.com/projects/liberux-nexx--3 barely reached 10% of €1,434,375 Fixed Goal with just 135 backers.
So… also clearly not that one either.
So what accelerated development do people not just want to claim they do want, but actually pay for?
The suggestion was that we need it, not that a large number of people want it.
The software development really needs to happen before hardware sales. Pretty pointless without it.