brandhout@feddit.nl
on 09 Feb 2024 18:26
nextcollapse
Kinda great! Although Guix and nixos are more my thing these days.
Pantherina@feddit.de
on 09 Feb 2024 19:07
nextcollapse
If you are a modder that wants to do stuff like replace the kernel, add in rust coreutils etc, then I think NixOS is indeed better. Have not used it but really want to try.
Image based Distros are just perfect for people that want to have perfectly reproducible bugs, or in general not many.
It is a good community concept, but tbh a preset of shared Nix config files could do the same thing too, with ease. Just dont deviate from those configs and you will have multiple people with the same systems.
SpeakinTelnet@programming.dev
on 09 Feb 2024 21:37
nextcollapse
Damn, rust really embrace the “Hey, Can I copy your homework?” Meme. I like rust btw, it’s just funny how often I see something along the line of “it’s like X, but in rust!”
Pantherina@feddit.de
on 09 Feb 2024 22:30
collapse
This shows something else. The traditional languages are all more common than Rust.
I suppose Go could be a good competitor, and I read a thread comparing C=Go, C++=Rust.
I just see a lot more rust in many projects, and it is well integrated with GTK for example. I also know of several drivers and modules written in Rust.
At least in Linux, Go seems to be used for WebTech more than for other things.
I am interested in a discussion about that, as I would like to learn one of these languages, but Rust seems to have a better ecosystem with more adaption, ready GUI toolkits, a Linux Desktop, multiple GTK apps etc. in the making, while for example “Fyne”, Go GUI toolkit (that I found in the Flatpak “Rymdport”) doesnt even have Wayland support yet.
drndramrndra@lemmygrad.ml
on 10 Feb 2024 14:18
collapse
This shows something else. The traditional languages are all more common than Rust.
It’s a survey from 2019, but in those rust is traditionally the favourite language nobody uses professionally.
I suppose Go could be a good competitor, and I read a thread comparing C=Go, C++=Rust.
Go’s syintax is C inspired, but it’s not made to replace it, nor do they compete in the same space.
Look at zig instead of you’re interested in that.
I am interested in a discussion about that, as I would like to learn one of these languages
Skip rust unless you have years to get good at it.
Exactly. The concept is great, but my Guix system (Nix fork from GNU) is already reproducible and capable of rollbacks and transactional upgrades (and declarative system configuration !)
The learning curve is quite steep tho (the Nix leaning curve is even higher, at least it used to be IMO). If the sway spin of Atomic Fedora was available earlier I probably wouldn’t have switched tbh. Both solutions are great.
Overall I’m quite happy with my Guix configuration. I’ve got roughly the same configuration on all my systems with ease, all config files (also sway for example) in the same language: Guile Scheme (LISP dialect), and the whole thing is in git. I don’t imagine going back to a regular distribution anytime soon.
Scheme is a more mature and more expressive language than Nix imo. And you can write your home configs in scheme too.
The differences aren’t that big, nix is great but I find (at least I did two years ago) the documentation a bit confusing. Both are great. I like scheme a lot better than Nix (the language), and the tooling is a bit less confusing to me.
I didn’t know about home-manager, but it seems like it.
refreeze@lemmy.world
on 10 Feb 2024 13:51
collapse
Agreed. I used to use Silverblue and it was very stable but did not solve all the problems that Nix addresses. Once you experience the first reinstall with NixOS you will wonder why we did things any other way. It’s amazing to just run one command and have things set up exactly how you like.
Pantherina@feddit.de
on 09 Feb 2024 19:01
nextcollapse
I like them a lot, switched to Kinoite⏩uBlue: (Kinoite-main, -nokmods (until that got silently dropped), -main again; 37-39)⏩Secureblue kinoite-laptop-userns
The biggest Problem is that Fedoras Images are not usable.
Filemanager movie thumbnails dont work
Flatpak browsers are not feature-complete and probably not secure (because they can’t create usernamespace-isolated processes for tabs)
they have no NVIDIA support
powerusers will miss ffmpeg
The idea of immutable images is, to have a base that most people dont need to change. You can, but the moment you add NVIDIA proprietary drivers or full ffmpeg, you are in unprotected territory again.
So I like the Distros for their reproducible bugs and future possibility to be a very secure base (you could just verify the hash of the root system to check for viruses). But they cannot be produced in the US.
Fedora is nice but just like with rpmfusion, ublue is the key part that makes it work. And on immutable images this cannot just be added in a welcome dialog, as you need massive overrides by default.
GravitySpoiled@lemmy.ml
on 09 Feb 2024 19:47
collapse
I can’t find an open issue regarding security with flatpaks on librewolf codeberg.org/librewolf/issues/issues it would be nice if you could open one such that it may get adressed.
Just install ffmpeg in a distrobox or layer it if you desire
Filemanager thumbnails - I usually don’t use big icons (or thumbnails) hence, I don’t remember it too well but that should depend on the file manager, right? And aren’t there tools for thumbnail creation in case they are missing? (I remember something from my time when I used arch)
Pantherina@feddit.de
on 09 Feb 2024 22:35
nextcollapse
You cant layer ffmpeg, you need to override-remove everything libav and then install everything new from rpmfusion. I did that, its a mess.
If you just want video playback thats just libavcodec-freeworld, thats why I specifically mentioned ffmpeg.
I am not a fan of Distrobox for small tools. For sure possible but unnecessary and the workflow is a pain. And trust me, I use it daily and even ran libvirt in a rootful one, virt-manager in a rootless one, connected over ssh.
My point was that Fedoras product is unusable. Ublue is the solution, their main images are basically Fedora Atomic but fixed.
that should depend on the file manager, right?
No thats libavcodec-freeworld and ffmpegthumbs. Most movies you find on the open sea are not in libre Codecs.
Pantherina@feddit.de
on 09 Feb 2024 22:42
collapse
And the Flatpak browser thing is complicated.
Chromium uses namespaces. Nowadays unprivileged user namespaces, but the legacy suid namespaces are still integrated.
If you want to run Chromium (and I think all Electron apps too) as Flatpak, you replace those namespaces with zypak, which instead isolates processes using flatpak and its seccomp filters.
These are the seccomp filters for every app though, so they are probably way too unrestricted. Also it has a small performance hit.
That is the reason why no Chromium Browser Flatpak is official.
Now the thing with Firefox is, I have no idea what isolation they use. Everyone says its less secure. And they adopted Flatpak as if it was nothing, without any comment on that topic.
The issue is that Flatpak uses a single seccomp filter for bubblewrap, that is used by every app. But browsers would need a different one, with just the added permission to create user namespaces.
Currently this is not even possible when using a seperate repo. Really, no idea. Bubblejail is an alternative with custom seccomp filters and usernamespace permission. But it is very different, uses system packages and is very alpha.
Pantherina@feddit.de
on 09 Feb 2024 19:04
nextcollapse
Jorge Castro has been the head of this project and I am excited by his vision. Bluefin aims to be the immutable desktop distro with the most sane defaults that also supports Nvidia.
Looks cool but like so fucking weird they gendered an os
Happybara@lemmy.world
on 10 Feb 2024 09:01
nextcollapse
It’s a mascot for brand recognition purposes, just like Tux the penguin. I don’t quite understand what the problem is. I feel like if I were to call anything about it weird, it would be the use of a derpy, chonky dinosaur rather than the gender of said derpasaurus.
FutileRecipe@lemmy.world
on 10 Feb 2024 11:09
collapse
if I were to call anything about it weird, it would be the use of a derpy, chonky dinosaur
Bluefin is a Deinonychus antirrhopus, a theropod dinosaur whose name means “terrible claw”. Discovered in the 1960s, she revolutionized our understanding of dinosaurs. Before Deinonychus, dinosaurs were often seen as slow, dim-witted creatures. However, she shattered these misconceptions, offering insight into the dynamic world of hot-blooded, rapidly evolving animals that were masters of their domain. We aim for our desktop to embody a similar nimbleness. Power and adaptability.
Pantherina@feddit.de
on 10 Feb 2024 14:15
collapse
And its always female, ships, cars, computers. Fucking weird
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 10 Feb 2024 10:32
collapse
Fedora may receive backing from RH, but it’s still community-ran. Similar to how Linux itself is backed by the likes of Google/Meta/Huawei/etc but is isn’t ran by them.
And they didn’t close-source RHEL. I don’t like the license changes they made either, but calling it closed source is inaccurate.
If you’re a customer of theirs, you can see the source code. The license customers agree to is certainly a restriction, but it’s not all of a sudden closed/proprietary software.
And finally, despite that recent move, RH remains probably the biggest contributor to desktop Linux. If you want to avoid their work… good luck. It’s literally everywhere.
FutileRecipe@lemmy.world
on 10 Feb 2024 10:55
collapse
If you’re a customer of theirs, you can see the source code.
You’re basically saying that something isn’t wet, it just has water on it.
drndramrndra@lemmygrad.ml
on 10 Feb 2024 13:38
nextcollapse
TIL GPL is a proprietary licence
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 10 Feb 2024 14:30
collapse
I’m saying their source code is available to its users for auditing, changing, redistributing without risk of being sued for intellectual property violations.
That’s fine as far as the GPL goes. It doesn’t have to be public to non-users.
You’re basically saying that something isn’t wet, it just has water on it.
I’m saying nothing of the sort.
FutileRecipe@lemmy.world
on 10 Feb 2024 14:51
collapse
I’m saying their source code is available to its users for auditing, changing, redistributing without risk of being sued for intellectual property violations.
We’re saying the same thing, you just refuse to attach “closed source” to its definition. So answer me this: can anyone freely use it? Can only licensees use it? If the answers are no and yes respectively, that’s closed source.
I’m saying nothing of the sort.
You absolutely are. You’re using the word’s definition (source code available only to licensees), but won’t say the actual word (closed source).
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 10 Feb 2024 18:33
collapse
No, we aren’t saying the same thing, because you’re talking nonsense and I am not.
Closed source means computer programs whose source code is not published except to licensees
Nowhere in your link does it actually say that. And amusingly, by that definition, software where the source code isn’t provided to licensees isn’t closed source. What? So software where the code is a total black box that nobody other than the programmer knows isn’t closed source in your mind?
But here’s something it does say:
Proprietary software is software that grants its creator, publisher, or other rightsholder or rightsholder partner a legal monopoly by modern copyright and intellectual property law to exclude the recipient from freely sharing the software or modifying it
Let’s go through the two listed criteria, shall we?
Legal monopoly to exclude the user from sharing the software: RHEL doesn’t have this. They can’t sue anybody for sharing the code.
Legal monopoly to exclude the user from modifying the code: RHEL doesn’t have this. RHEL users are free to modify the code as they wish.
Saying “if you clone and republish RHEL, taking advantage of our work to undercut us with minimal effort, we reserve the right to not have you as a continued customer” is perhaps against the spirit of many open source licences, on that I agree, but it’s a far cry from being closed source. RHEL isn’t like MacOS or Windows.
FutileRecipe@lemmy.world
on 12 Feb 2024 05:27
collapse
Nowhere in your link does it actually say that.
It’s hard for me to take you seriously when it does and I literally copy/pasted from the link. Even if you don’t read the whole page, you can’t even do a CTRL+F correctly.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 12 Feb 2024 06:25
collapse
It literally doesn’t. Please stop lying. Everybody can see you lying. It just makes you look like even more of an idiot. You don’t want to look like even more of a idiot, do you?
I’ve used your own source to dismiss your argument.
But here’s another, just to drive the point home even more:
Calling me a liar (when it’s easily provable I’m not, I even included a screenshot for you) devolving to insults, calling me a kiddie and an idiot? If you can’t even formulate an argument without insults and you fail twice to read a link, yep, we’re done. Enjoy your day/night.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 12 Feb 2024 06:42
collapse
threaded - newest
Kinda great! Although Guix and nixos are more my thing these days.
If you are a modder that wants to do stuff like replace the kernel, add in rust coreutils etc, then I think NixOS is indeed better. Have not used it but really want to try.
Image based Distros are just perfect for people that want to have perfectly reproducible bugs, or in general not many.
It is a good community concept, but tbh a preset of shared Nix config files could do the same thing too, with ease. Just dont deviate from those configs and you will have multiple people with the same systems.
Damn, rust really embrace the “Hey, Can I copy your homework?” Meme. I like rust btw, it’s just funny how often I see something along the line of “it’s like X, but in rust!”
I mean coreutils in a memory safe language?
Rust is the currently most adopted C replacement
Where’s the data you’re using to measure that?
insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology
This shows something else. The traditional languages are all more common than Rust.
I suppose Go could be a good competitor, and I read a thread comparing C=Go, C++=Rust.
I just see a lot more rust in many projects, and it is well integrated with GTK for example. I also know of several drivers and modules written in Rust.
At least in Linux, Go seems to be used for WebTech more than for other things.
I am interested in a discussion about that, as I would like to learn one of these languages, but Rust seems to have a better ecosystem with more adaption, ready GUI toolkits, a Linux Desktop, multiple GTK apps etc. in the making, while for example “Fyne”, Go GUI toolkit (that I found in the Flatpak “Rymdport”) doesnt even have Wayland support yet.
It’s a survey from 2019, but in those rust is traditionally the favourite language nobody uses professionally.
Go’s syintax is C inspired, but it’s not made to replace it, nor do they compete in the same space.
Look at zig instead of you’re interested in that.
Skip rust unless you have years to get good at it.
Exactly. The concept is great, but my Guix system (Nix fork from GNU) is already reproducible and capable of rollbacks and transactional upgrades (and declarative system configuration !)
The learning curve is quite steep tho (the Nix leaning curve is even higher, at least it used to be IMO). If the sway spin of Atomic Fedora was available earlier I probably wouldn’t have switched tbh. Both solutions are great.
Overall I’m quite happy with my Guix configuration. I’ve got roughly the same configuration on all my systems with ease, all config files (also sway for example) in the same language: Guile Scheme (LISP dialect), and the whole thing is in git. I don’t imagine going back to a regular distribution anytime soon.
NixOS User here: what made you use Guix over NixOS?
Scheme is a more mature and more expressive language than Nix imo. And you can write your home configs in scheme too.
The differences aren’t that big, nix is great but I find (at least I did two years ago) the documentation a bit confusing. Both are great. I like scheme a lot better than Nix (the language), and the tooling is a bit less confusing to me.
so you have your own Version of Home-Manager as well?
I didn’t know about home-manager, but it seems like it.
Agreed. I used to use Silverblue and it was very stable but did not solve all the problems that Nix addresses. Once you experience the first reinstall with NixOS you will wonder why we did things any other way. It’s amazing to just run one command and have things set up exactly how you like.
I like them a lot, switched to Kinoite⏩uBlue: (Kinoite-main, -nokmods (until that got silently dropped), -main again; 37-39)⏩Secureblue kinoite-laptop-userns
The biggest Problem is that Fedoras Images are not usable.
The idea of immutable images is, to have a base that most people dont need to change. You can, but the moment you add NVIDIA proprietary drivers or full ffmpeg, you are in unprotected territory again.
So I like the Distros for their reproducible bugs and future possibility to be a very secure base (you could just verify the hash of the root system to check for viruses). But they cannot be produced in the US.
Fedora is nice but just like with rpmfusion, ublue is the key part that makes it work. And on immutable images this cannot just be added in a welcome dialog, as you need massive overrides by default.
I can’t find an open issue regarding security with flatpaks on librewolf codeberg.org/librewolf/issues/issues it would be nice if you could open one such that it may get adressed.
Just install ffmpeg in a distrobox or layer it if you desire
There’s at least Fedora atomic with nvidia github.com/ublue-os/nvidia
Filemanager thumbnails - I usually don’t use big icons (or thumbnails) hence, I don’t remember it too well but that should depend on the file manager, right? And aren’t there tools for thumbnail creation in case they are missing? (I remember something from my time when I used arch)
You cant layer ffmpeg, you need to override-remove everything
libavand then install everything new from rpmfusion. I did that, its a mess.If you just want video playback thats just
libavcodec-freeworld, thats why I specifically mentioned ffmpeg.I am not a fan of Distrobox for small tools. For sure possible but unnecessary and the workflow is a pain. And trust me, I use it daily and even ran libvirt in a rootful one, virt-manager in a rootless one, connected over ssh.
My point was that Fedoras product is unusable. Ublue is the solution, their main images are basically Fedora Atomic but fixed.
No thats
libavcodec-freeworldandffmpegthumbs. Most movies you find on the open sea are not in libre Codecs.And the Flatpak browser thing is complicated.
Chromium uses namespaces. Nowadays unprivileged user namespaces, but the legacy suid namespaces are still integrated.
If you want to run Chromium (and I think all Electron apps too) as Flatpak, you replace those namespaces with zypak, which instead isolates processes using flatpak and its seccomp filters.
These are the seccomp filters for every app though, so they are probably way too unrestricted. Also it has a small performance hit.
That is the reason why no Chromium Browser Flatpak is official.
Now the thing with Firefox is, I have no idea what isolation they use. Everyone says its less secure. And they adopted Flatpak as if it was nothing, without any comment on that topic.
The issue is that Flatpak uses a single seccomp filter for bubblewrap, that is used by every app. But browsers would need a different one, with just the added permission to create user namespaces.
Currently this is not even possible when using a seperate repo. Really, no idea. Bubblejail is an alternative with custom seccomp filters and usernamespace permission. But it is very different, uses system packages and is very alpha.
Btw, uBlue List of aweome custom Images
I just want to drop this here
projectbluefin.io
Jorge Castro has been the head of this project and I am excited by his vision. Bluefin aims to be the immutable desktop distro with the most sane defaults that also supports Nvidia.
Give it a whirl!
Looks cool but like so fucking weird they gendered an os
It’s a mascot for brand recognition purposes, just like Tux the penguin. I don’t quite understand what the problem is. I feel like if I were to call anything about it weird, it would be the use of a derpy, chonky dinosaur rather than the gender of said derpasaurus.
And its always female, ships, cars, computers. Fucking weird
.
Fedora may receive backing from RH, but it’s still community-ran. Similar to how Linux itself is backed by the likes of Google/Meta/Huawei/etc but is isn’t ran by them.
And they didn’t close-source RHEL. I don’t like the license changes they made either, but calling it closed source is inaccurate.
If you’re a customer of theirs, you can see the source code. The license customers agree to is certainly a restriction, but it’s not all of a sudden closed/proprietary software.
And finally, despite that recent move, RH remains probably the biggest contributor to desktop Linux. If you want to avoid their work… good luck. It’s literally everywhere.
Are you saying that their source code is not published except to licensees?
You’re basically saying that something isn’t wet, it just has water on it.
TIL GPL is a proprietary licence
I’m saying their source code is available to its users for auditing, changing, redistributing without risk of being sued for intellectual property violations.
That’s fine as far as the GPL goes. It doesn’t have to be public to non-users.
I’m saying nothing of the sort.
Closed source means computer programs whose source code is not published except to licensees.
We’re saying the same thing, you just refuse to attach “closed source” to its definition. So answer me this: can anyone freely use it? Can only licensees use it? If the answers are no and yes respectively, that’s closed source.
You absolutely are. You’re using the word’s definition (source code available only to licensees), but won’t say the actual word (closed source).
No, we aren’t saying the same thing, because you’re talking nonsense and I am not.
Nowhere in your link does it actually say that. And amusingly, by that definition, software where the source code isn’t provided to licensees isn’t closed source. What? So software where the code is a total black box that nobody other than the programmer knows isn’t closed source in your mind?
But here’s something it does say:
Let’s go through the two listed criteria, shall we?
Legal monopoly to exclude the user from sharing the software: RHEL doesn’t have this. They can’t sue anybody for sharing the code.
Legal monopoly to exclude the user from modifying the code: RHEL doesn’t have this. RHEL users are free to modify the code as they wish.
Saying “if you clone and republish RHEL, taking advantage of our work to undercut us with minimal effort, we reserve the right to not have you as a continued customer” is perhaps against the spirit of many open source licences, on that I agree, but it’s a far cry from being closed source. RHEL isn’t like MacOS or Windows.
It’s hard for me to take you seriously when it does and I literally copy/pasted from the link. Even if you don’t read the whole page, you can’t even do a CTRL+F correctly.
It literally doesn’t. Please stop lying. Everybody can see you lying. It just makes you look like even more of an idiot. You don’t want to look like even more of a idiot, do you?
I’ve used your own source to dismiss your argument.
But here’s another, just to drive the point home even more:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux
Lol
Lmao
We’re done here, kiddie.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/323c9ed3-54bb-4f7c-a044-8df8efd08dd3.png">
Calling me a liar (when it’s easily provable I’m not, I even included a screenshot for you) devolving to insults, calling me a kiddie and an idiot? If you can’t even formulate an argument without insults and you fail twice to read a link, yep, we’re done. Enjoy your day/night.
<img alt="1000070850" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/22db9b94-9f73-4a94-9c9a-51307758c97b.jpeg">
😂😂😂😂
SuSE is releasing one of those as well. It seems to be the trend nowadays.