Project Bluefin: A Linux Desktop for Serious Developers (thenewstack.io)
from JoeKlemmer@lemmy.myserv.one to linux@lemmy.ml on 24 Nov 2023 22:07
https://lemmy.myserv.one/post/4373297

From The New Stack

#linux

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BautAufWasEuchAufbaut@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 24 Nov 2023 22:22 next collapse

What’s the Linux desktop for the playful developer? 🤔

mactan@lemmy.ml on 24 Nov 2023 22:35 next collapse

LFS

[deleted] on 24 Nov 2023 22:42 next collapse

.

[deleted] on 24 Nov 2023 23:50 next collapse

.

EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world on 25 Nov 2023 00:33 next collapse

YiffOS

Helix@feddit.de on 26 Nov 2023 06:17 collapse

Is that a fork of NixOS?

Vilian@lemmy.ca on 25 Nov 2023 00:35 next collapse

UwUbuntu

[deleted] on 25 Nov 2023 04:26 collapse

.

porcariasagrada@slrpnk.net on 25 Nov 2023 07:35 next collapse

gentoo

KISSmyOS@lemmy.world on 25 Nov 2023 08:40 next collapse

I don’t know but non-serious developers use Slackware.

Helix@feddit.de on 26 Nov 2023 06:16 next collapse

NixOS according to my local fetish community.

WeLoveCastingSpellz@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 26 Nov 2023 15:11 collapse

Among OS

GravitySpoiled@lemmy.ml on 24 Nov 2023 22:45 next collapse

I don’t get it. What’s the spirit of ubuntu? Is the underlying OS based on ubuntu instead of fedora?

What’s the actual difference to fedora silverblue?

Half the answer to “why did you make your own linux?” is that it’s awesome being able to revert back to the original fedora OS.

Because it follows a cloud-native approach, the end user has the flexibility to rebase back to the stock Fedora or any Universal Blue image. It’s more like having someone install, configure, and maintain a polished Fedora setup for you.

And the other half doesn’t provide any info either

Bluefin utilizes Fedora’s OCI features to compose and build an OS image. This process is overseen by a well-structured community that is committed to automation and sustainability. The end result is akin to a configuration management tool like Ansible or Salt, but without the typical challenges associated with maintaining a custom distribution.

Source

just_another_person@lemmy.world on 24 Nov 2023 22:54 next collapse

Yeah, they don’t have a clear mission statement to explain the delta of “why does this exist, and what problems does it solve”.

GravitySpoiled@lemmy.ml on 24 Nov 2023 23:02 collapse

I think it boils down to: “because we can”. “We can automatically build our own setup on github and that’s what we do”

Installing tailscale, zsh, fish, vscode, extension manager, codecs, etc. out of the box isn’t enough for a new distro. Especially because you break the signing of fedora by doing so.

russjr08@outpost.zeuslink.net on 25 Nov 2023 09:03 collapse

out of the box isn’t enough for a new distro.

I’m a bit surprised that they mentioned “distribution” on the Bluefin website, as the Universal Blue site (the base project behind Bluefin) explicitly mentions not being a distro - and I know that Jorge tends to be very clear that they’re not building a distro:

This isn’t a distribution, you can always rebase back to Fedora without reinstalling. This is a unique relationship between upstream and downstream that is popular in cloud, but still new to the Linux desktop. “Custom images” seems to be a decent place to start since that’s what people call them in cloud.

Helix@feddit.de on 26 Nov 2023 06:20 collapse

much cloud, very native, wow

j0rge@kbin.social on 25 Nov 2023 01:10 next collapse

What’s the actual difference to fedora silverblue?

Hi! Co-maintainer here, you can find the differences in the github repo: https://github.com/ublue-os/bluefin

And there's a doc page going over it here: https://universal-blue.discourse.group/docs?topic=41

If you have any other questions I'd be happy to answer them!

tkn@startrek.website on 25 Nov 2023 07:22 next collapse

Hi! Co-maintainer here, you can find the differences in the github repo: github.com/ublue-os/bluefin

I checked the github page you link and can find no differences listed, just three bullet points that appear to have be written by a PR team. You say an Ubuntu Desktop experience melded with Fedora Silverblue. Don’t you mean GNOME? Ubuntu isn’t a desktop environment, it’s a Linux distro. GNOME is the desktop environment. That seems like an embarassing blunder in your copy when you claim to be building a distro for “serious” developers.

If it weren’t open source, I’d think this was a scam. Weird choice.

russjr08@outpost.zeuslink.net on 25 Nov 2023 08:54 collapse

IIRC, Bluefin uses the GNOME extensions that Ubuntu uses - so yes, GNOME in the same way that the current version of Pop!_OS is GNOME + their own extensions.

KISSmyOS@lemmy.world on 25 Nov 2023 07:29 collapse

Instead of linking to articles full of buzz-words, can you explain what’s the difference between this distro and Fedora Silverblue?
I’m guessing the “spirit of Ubuntu” means they took Silverblue and preconfigured some stuff.

j0rge@kbin.social on 25 Nov 2023 13:25 collapse

I linked to it, here it is again: https://universal-blue.discourse.group/docs?topic=41#features-9

And the previous link was directly to the source code of the image.

GravitySpoiled@lemmy.ml on 26 Nov 2023 03:27 collapse

Tbo, I lost interest in it.

I’ve spend a good amount of time on it trying to figure out what the project is about. Even after clarifying the confusion and multiple people asking for clarification from your side and multiple upvotes, there’s nothing from your side. You reference to something that has been saying nothing for many people.

You didn’t even clarify the magical wonders of ubuntu in your project. I kind of feel insulted if I think properly about it.

Delete following part of your post

Bluefin

A familiar(ish) Ubuntu desktop for Fedora Silverblue. It strives to cover these three use cases:

For users it provides a system as reliable as a Chromebook with near-zero maintenance, with the power of Ubuntu and Fedora fused together. For developers we endeavour to provide the best cloud-native developer experience by enabling easy consumption of the industry’s leading tools. These are included in dedicated bluefin-dx and bluefin-dx-nvidia images. For gamers we strive to deliver a world-class gaming experience via Flathub or bazzite-arch “Evolution is a process of constant branching and expansion.” - Stephen Jay Gould This image heavily utilizes cloud-native concepts.

GNOME Software with Flathub: Use a familiar software center UI to install graphical software System designed for automatic staging of updates If you’ve never used an image-based Linux before just use your computer normally Don’t overthink it, just shut your computer off when you’re not using it Should I trust you? This is all hosted, built, and pushed on GitHub. As far as if I’m a trustable fellow, here’s my bio. If you’ve made it this far, then hopefully you’ve come to the conclusion on how easy it would be to build all of this on your own trusted machinery. :smile:

The difference between silverblue and your image is that silverblue is signed by fedora and yours isn’t. There’s no reason for anyone but you to use the image. Even if I were to us tailscale and fish, I’d be better off with silverblue.

j0rge@lemmy.ml on 26 Nov 2023 16:38 collapse

Here maybe it’s easier if I just paste in the differences:

  • Ubuntu-like GNOME layout.

    • Includes the following GNOME Extensions:
      • Dash to Dock - for a more Unity-like dock
      • Appindicator - for tray-like icons in the top right corner
      • GSConnect - Integrate your mobile device with your desktop
      • Blur my Shell - for that bling

  • GNOME Software with Flathub:

    • Use a familiar software center UI to install graphical software

  • Built on top of the the Universal Blue main image

    • Extra udev rules for game controllers and other devices included out of the box
    • All multimedia codecs included
    • System designed for automatic staging of updates
      • If you’ve never used an image-based Linux before just use your computer normally
      • Don’t overthink it, just shut your computer off when you’re not using it

  • Starship is enabled by default to give you a nice shell prompt

  • Solaar - included for Logitech mouse management along with libratbagd

  • Tailscale - included for VPN along with wireguard-tools

  • zsh and fish optional

  • Built-in Ubuntu user space

  • <kbd>Ctrl</kbd>-<kbd>Alt</kbd>-<kbd>u</kbd> - will launch an Ubuntu image inside a terminal via Distrobox and your home directory will be transparently mounted for the Ubuntu image to access

  • A BlackBox terminal is used just for this configuration

  • Use this container for your typical CLI needs or to install software that is not available via Flatpak or Fedora

  • Optional ubuntu-toolbox image with Python, and other convenience development tools. just distrobox-bluefin to get started. To configure just follow the guide.

  • Optional universal image with Python, Node.js, JavaScript, TypeScript, C++, Java, C#, F#, .NET Core, PHP, Go, Ruby, and and Conda. just distrobox-universal to get started

  • just assemble shortcut to declaratively build distroboxes defined in /etc/distrobox/distrobox.ini

  • Refer to the Distrobox documentation for more information on using and configuring custom images

  • GNOME Terminal - <kbd>Ctrl</kbd>-<kbd>Alt</kbd>-<kbd>t</kbd> - will launch a host-level GNOME Terminal if you need to do host-level things in Fedora (you shouldn’t need to do much).

The difference between silverblue and your image is that silverblue is signed by fedora and yours isn’t.

Of course Fedora only signs Fedora images, we sign our own images.

There’s no reason for anyone but you to use the image. Even if I were to us tailscale and fish, I’d be better off with silverblue.

Then use Silverblue! If you don’t understand the features of something then you might not be the target audience!

milkjug@lemmy.wildfyre.dev on 26 Nov 2023 04:47 collapse

This is the umpteenth time I’ve come across this project but I just don’t get what they’re going for here.

These are just custom images, are they not?

If I wanted Ubuntu I’d use Ubuntu. If I wanted Fedora I’d use Fedora. Maybe I’m not getting it but I wonder how big of a population that’s out there that wants some Ubuntu mixed in with a touch of Fedora and some buzzword salad thrown into the mix.

[deleted] on 24 Nov 2023 22:57 next collapse

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indigomirage@lemmy.ca on 24 Nov 2023 23:10 next collapse

YaNJaLD.

Yet another not just another Linux desktop.

bitwolf@lemmy.one on 26 Nov 2023 06:08 collapse

Lmao I first read that as

Yet another Newly Jank ass Linux Distro

BaroqueInMind@kbin.social on 24 Nov 2023 23:16 next collapse

"Cloud native" technology is double speak for your shit is running on other people's computers who will be tracking your use and selling it to pay for server upkeep and also maybe profit?

sudotstar@kbin.social on 24 Nov 2023 23:52 next collapse

In this case it's referring to the fact that the OS is built upon the same containerization technology used on cloud platforms such as Kubernetes. As a marketing tool it's a bit buzzwordy, but it's not about running the core OS components outside of the physical machine here.

interceder270@lemmy.world on 25 Nov 2023 08:40 collapse

‘Containerized’ would be more accurate.

Both are incredibly stupid attempts to convince people they need something they don’t.

You all should look into a ‘blue ocean’ business strategy. Lots of shitty businessmen are constantly trying to push ‘new’ things and have a vested interest in convincing laymen of their necessity.

Needs are born from solving problems, not making them.

Aggravationstation@lemmy.world on 25 Nov 2023 22:54 collapse

Yea and coming with Visual Studio pre installed? No thanks

const_void@lemmy.ml on 25 Nov 2023 00:21 next collapse

Are other distros not serious? I don’t understand what this is.

duncesplayed@lemmy.one on 25 Nov 2023 05:25 next collapse

You’re just not cloud-native enough to understand how revolutionary it is to run GNOME on Fedora.

Helix@feddit.de on 26 Nov 2023 06:15 collapse

We are really experiencing a cloud native generation. These Zoomers don’t even know how life was without a cloud over their heads.

interceder270@lemmy.world on 25 Nov 2023 08:38 collapse

Just a bad attempt at marketing.

They should feel shame.

fxdave@lemmy.ml on 25 Nov 2023 00:32 next collapse

“I use bluefin btw” It doesn’t feel nice.

TCB13@lemmy.world on 25 Nov 2023 01:13 next collapse

Linux desktop will, most likely, fail for: Developers and sysadmins, because not everyone is using Docker and Github actions to deploy applications to some proprietary cloud solution. Finding a properly working FTP/SFTP/FTPS desktop client (similar WinSCP or Cyberduck) is an impossible task as the ones that exist fail even at basic tasks like dragging and dropping a file.

Linux desktop is great, I love it but I don’t sugar coat it nor I’m delusional like most posting about it.

It all comes down to a question of how much time (days? months?) you want to spend fixing things on Linux that simply work out of the box under Windows for a minimal fee. Buy a Windows license and spend the time you would’ve spent dealing with Linux issues doing your actual job and you’ll, most likely, get a better ROI.

tadeubento.com/…/linux-desktop-a-collective-delus…

Also, immutable distributions are a scam:

Guess what happens whenever people popularize immutable distros as the next hype in tech that will make everything better? You get yourself into a totally unreasonable and avoidable ecosystem just because those systems won’t cut it for most use cases… same that happened with Docker/Kubernetes.

I’ve been saying it for year and nobody cares: nowadays those companies are all about re-creating and reconfiguring the way people develop software so everyone will be hostage of their platforms. We see this in everything now Docker/DockerHub/Kubernetes and GitHub actions were the first sign of this cancer. We now have a generation of developers that doesn’t understand the basic of their tech stack, about networking, about DNS, about how to deploy a simple thing into a server that doesn’t use some Docker BS or isn’t a 3rd party cloud xyz deploy-from-github service.

The latest endeavor in making everyone’s hostage is the new Linux immutable distribution trend. Immutable distros are all about making thing that were easy into complex, “locked down”, “inflexible”, bullshit to justify jobs and payed tech stacks and a soon to be released property solution.

We had Ansible, containers, ZFS and BTRFS that provided all the required immutability needed already but someone decided that is is time to transform proven development techniques in the hopes of eventually selling some orchestration and/or other proprietary repository / platform / BS like Docker / Kubernetes does.

“Oh but there are truly open-source immutable distros” … true, but this hype is much like Docker and it will invariably and inevitably lead people down a path that will then require some proprietary solution or dependency somewhere that is only required because the “new” technology itself alone doesn’t deliver as others did in the past.

As with CentOS’s fiasco or Docker it doesn’t really matter if there are truly open-source and open ecosystems of immutable distributions because in the end people/companies will pick the proprietary / closed option just because “it’s easier to use” or some other specific thing that will be good on the short term and very bad on the long term. This happened with CentOS vs Debian is currently unfolding with Docker vs LXC/RKT and will happen with Ubuntu vs Debian for all those who moved from CentOS to Ubuntu.

Those popularizing immutable distributions clearly haven’t had any experience with it before the current hype. Let me tell you something, immutable systems aren’t a new thing we already had it with MIPS devices (mostly routers and IOTs) and people have been moving to ARM and mutable solutions because it’s better, easier and more reliable.

Thrickles@lemm.ee on 25 Nov 2023 01:41 next collapse

Let people enjoy things.

Abnorc@lemm.ee on 26 Nov 2023 16:29 collapse

What if I enjoy ruining other people’s fun?

andruid@lemmy.ml on 25 Nov 2023 03:21 next collapse

There is always some solutionizm in tech, but I’m interested in containerzation as a solution to problems I’ve had with configure drift building up on my systems and make it easier to share and work with the community.

The immutable desktop work to me is specifically working on bridging the gap between the UX of a local admin (you know wanting custom configuration and fast reaction to user input) and the industrial expectations of being able to test and track every change and reduce the number of different pieces you need to operate a system.

Hopefully we can lose some of the industries bad habits though. Like “relying on this proprietary piece is ok because we can move faster” or making other excuses as if you are going to have to explain to your boss why some metric looks bad instead of just trying to make the best system or solution we can.

[deleted] on 26 Nov 2023 06:35 collapse

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ExLisper@linux.community on 25 Nov 2023 10:33 next collapse

I care!

Helix@feddit.de on 26 Nov 2023 06:36 collapse

The amount of times my Windows installation(s) broke is just as high as the amount of times my Linux installations had issues. The article you quoted seems to be from someone with more Windows experience than Linux experience.

One example: FileZilla is a capable GUI SFTP and FTP client, but so is nearly every file manager. I can drag and drop files from Dolphin into a fuse mounted FTP, SMB or SFTP folder just fine. Skill issue?

EDIT: omg, I just realised they use WinSCP for deploying applications. It really seems like a skill issue since you can automate that even without proprietary clouds. I can probably replace this person with a PowerShell script, which is even more efficient than them doing their job on Windows.

All operating systems sadly need lots of maintenance nowadays. The main reason I use Linux is that I feel in control of the system and the vendor doesn’t actively try to fuck with my installation.

drwankingstein@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 25 Nov 2023 01:21 next collapse

uses the GNOME interface

yeah thats a no from me.

BarrierWithAshes@kbin.social on 25 Nov 2023 01:42 next collapse

Plus its just running off Fedora? Easy no.

Dran_Arcana@lemmy.world on 25 Nov 2023 01:49 collapse

How did they manage to just take the worst of both and put them together?

interceder270@lemmy.world on 25 Nov 2023 08:38 collapse

It’s a cultural thing at this point.

They just have a different culture than us.

PixxlMan@lemmy.world on 25 Nov 2023 14:04 collapse

You’re just not a serious developer 😒

[deleted] on 25 Nov 2023 04:22 next collapse

.

dauerstaender@feddit.de on 25 Nov 2023 05:57 collapse

Everybody knows Linux is primarily used and developed (?) by moms who play FarmVille in terminal.

[deleted] on 25 Nov 2023 04:45 next collapse

.

interceder270@lemmy.world on 25 Nov 2023 08:37 next collapse

🥱

What a shitty tagline. What have I been doing these past few years, lol?

conc@lemmy.ml on 25 Nov 2023 08:54 next collapse

Ahh you must be a frivolous developer

Helix@feddit.de on 26 Nov 2023 06:13 collapse

Or a funny one.

nayminlwin@lemmy.ml on 26 Nov 2023 09:42 next collapse

Hello, fellow goofy developer.

imgel@lemmy.ml on 26 Nov 2023 16:24 collapse

Not being serious enough thats for sure

Laborer2125@discuss.tchncs.de on 25 Nov 2023 13:38 next collapse

I prefer to have a minimal linux ditro and install the apps I need.

PixxlMan@lemmy.world on 25 Nov 2023 14:02 next collapse

A serious desktop got serious developers who are seriously serious about their serioucity

maryjayjay@lemmy.world on 26 Nov 2023 04:06 next collapse

Are you cereal?

nayminlwin@lemmy.ml on 26 Nov 2023 09:41 next collapse

I can’t take that much seriousness.

PixxlMan@lemmy.world on 26 Nov 2023 14:27 collapse

Seriously?!

Tattorack@lemmy.world on 26 Nov 2023 16:14 collapse

Damn, that sounds serious.

imgel@lemmy.ml on 26 Nov 2023 16:24 collapse

as serious as a heart attack

[deleted] on 25 Nov 2023 18:53 next collapse

.

Helix@feddit.de on 26 Nov 2023 06:13 next collapse

Sorry, I only know silly, goofy developers. Can’t recommend this to anyone.

isVeryLoud@lemmy.ca on 27 Nov 2023 01:57 collapse

Yeah same, I’m a silly goose developer, can’t use this. Sorry!

catastrophicblues@lemmy.ca on 26 Nov 2023 07:20 collapse

Can someone tell me the recent hype about immutable distros? What exactly is the immutable part, and why is it attractive?

Asthmatic_Goose@lemm.ee on 26 Nov 2023 10:13 next collapse

Immutable, adjective: Unchanging over time or unable to be changed.

From the article: “We want a reliable desktop experience that runs everything, but we’re too lazy to maintain anything. So we automated the entire delivery pipeline in GitHub.”

So, in other words… “Please don’t ever update your system or everything will break”

conciselyverbose@kbin.social on 26 Nov 2023 16:46 collapse

It means the core OS is isolated from all the functionality in a way that allows you to modularly add all the functionality on top of it in a reproducible, robust way.

In theory. I haven't actually dug into any of them personally.

moreeni@lemm.ee on 26 Nov 2023 10:25 next collapse

The system (the os files to be precise) is only mutable by package manager for specific tasks like updating. It can break certain workflows if the user wants to change system files, because they can’t.

Bonuses from that are security and reproducibility. You can be sure that whatever package you have will look and behave exactly the same as on another device with the same OS. Malware won’t be able to mess around with your OS so trivially as it does on mutable distros.

catastrophicblues@lemmy.ca on 26 Nov 2023 21:29 collapse

Interesting. Sounds like DevOps folks would love it. Maybe I’ll look into it more. Thanks!

misophist@lemmy.world on 26 Nov 2023 16:28 next collapse

The base OS is a known unchanging set of bits. Squirt this datastream onto a storage volume and boot to it and you have a known-working system. Then you can futz around with all the self-contained packaged apps you want, and no worries about weird interactions fucking over your whole system.

It’s not for me, but I kinda see the appeal.

caseyweederman@lemmy.ca on 27 Nov 2023 21:37 collapse

It’s when you can’t set the volume to 0% so that everyone around you has to hear how hard you’re working.