In regard to Hyprland and Fascism
(drewdevault.com)
from doomsdayrs@lemmy.ml to linux@lemmy.ml on 07 May 16:38
https://lemmy.ml/post/29744414
from doomsdayrs@lemmy.ml to linux@lemmy.ml on 07 May 16:38
https://lemmy.ml/post/29744414
Like y’all keep posting about it, praising it, giving it free advertisement, and what not.
But the dev is a fascist, the discord server is a fascist bar, and the project thus is fascist.
I’ve met people who were harassed, I browsed through now deleted messages of Vaxry using slurrs and more.
So I wonder is if the people who post constantly about it know and are complicit, or just don’t know and would act otherwise?
It gets tiring to see the project be given “fame” when I know the roots of the plants are founded in toxicity & abuse.
threaded - newest
I don’t really care, the Lemmy devs also got some funky political opinions but I’m still here
at the end of the day software is software and this stuff is all free and open source anyway
Great, yeah, both sides are the same huh? Grow a spine.
I’d rather not get banned from this community by arguing that.
At any rate that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying the political views don’t matter, the software does and its great
Luckily there’s programming.dev which I hope will be the go to lemmy for programming
Too bad it’s American.
Oh :/
Nobody said both sides are the same. Grow a spine
The software itself does not harm anyone, considering it is free software and nobody has to contribute money to use it, i don’t care. If you feel so outraged by it, fork the software and develop your own version. At least with free software you have that option, as opposed to proprietary software where you have no option.
I’m not using Hyperland personally, but i’m not opposed to people using it.
Fr, you can disagree with someone and still make use of the software they create. Especially because you’re not even directly supporting them monetarily.
lemmy is not a great comparison, there’s like 3 alternatives, there are tens if not more hyprland alternatives.
i don’t think software is just software, why would this tech be exempt? pilot-less aircrafts is just tech, just like software, but we do remember that drones bomb people. supporting problematic developers is not “as bad” as building killing machines, but it’s the same principle: looking the other way when it’s convenient. we should aim to ostracize and isolate problematic devs, and it starts by not using their software, because doing so gives them clout and relevance
What other well supported wayland tiled window managers are out there with smooth animations? I would check them out for sure, but I only know about hyprland.
I’ve heard of SwayFX, but it’s pretty niche and I doubt it comes close to the featureset of Hyprland
i’m not on wayland so i can’t try any of these, but there are lists you can browse from (wiki.archlinux.org/title/Wayland#Compositors for example)
you are setting quite restrictive and arbitrary limits
what do you mean?
what counts as “smooth animations”?
if your message boils down to “something which looks really good to me and that has a discord i can go into and ask for help”, you may have set the requirements tight enough to only include hyprland, but that’s not a valid excuse in my opinion to avoid boycotting problematic developers
I agree they’re restrictive and arbitrary reasons and they’re also the reasons every single hyprland user has for chosing it. You have a different set of arbitrary reasons for setting your system up the way you like. It’s called a “preference”.
In order to fulfill this preference, is it ok for me to fork hyprland and call it something else? Or do I need to rewrite hyprland’s functionality from scratch and pretend it was all my idea? Can I reference hyprland during the rewrite or does it need to be clean room? Should i make a fork available for people who disapprove of the hyprland devs? But what if I’m not a good enough person? Oof, just noticing, i forgot to check the ideologies of each maintainer of the thousands of packages in my system.
I think it’s possible that the boycott idea makes more sense in a capitalist setting than a communist one. The reason we stop supporting JK Rowling or Chick-Fil-A is because being a customer directly translates to their success and thus the success of their ideology. But no one is making a profit from developing and maintaining a Linux package. In fact, typically the more people use your package, the more thankless work falls on you.
I’m simply interested in having control over my PC, and the FOSS community exists to exchange learnings and code to enable each other to do that. And like all of science throughout history, there are problematic people who contribute useful ideas, and I think we would be cutting off our own noses to reject those ideas just because they come from people we otherwise disagree with.
preference is s weak motivation honestly. i prefer google maps yet i still don’t want google and make do with OSM
but you don’t, you still depend on vaxry. can you maintain, update, fix and recompile hyprland yourself? if so, fork it and start boycotting vaxry. if not, what control are you talking about? it’s just preference
this whole argument to me sounds like “i prefer a WM with smooth animations and an active discord so im going to overlook the problematic maintainer im going to give clout to and start depending on”
Do you see the important difference between your example of preference and mine? My preference is a specific set of features, yours is a specific product.
Hah, I felt I already poked a dozen holes in that position. If you’d like to actually back up your position, I welcome it.
You keep bringing up their discord like that’s relevant to me. It’s not.
Yeah, I’m fully convinced you didn’t read my previous comment. For the record, I’m not downvoting you because I disagree with you, I think it’s valid to criticize others in the community for their behaviour, and I respect that. I’m going to downvote you because you’re not contributing to the discussion.
It is a quandary.
I would not support the project monetarily because I would not want to fund the primary persons behind it.
But Hyprland is FOSS is it not? Someone could fork the project to resolve the issue you are describing.
If this does not resolve the issue in your opinion (as you seem to have concerns with the “roots” of the project), and if we go with that logic, we should be just as opposed to using the modern “Jerry” gas can as it was a Nazi invention originally.
Both good and evil people invent things - whether the thing that is invented is itself reflective or could be considered supportive of the inventors ideals varies. Nazi’s are terrible and I don’t want to support them, but at the same time I think that it is good and useful to be able to safely and effectively transport gas if needed, and I’m not so certain that function supports Nazi ideals. If I purchased the gas can from a Nazi, then it would, but nothing is being purchased in the case of Hyprland as far as I am aware.
I don’t know a tonne about Hyprland as a thing however, so my decision on whether or not to use it may also vary.
In short, you can have massive, entirely valid criticisms of the evil deeds of a person, but that does not necessarily fault everything they invent or touch, even if we would like it to. This is the crux of the Composition/Division logical fallacy if I am not mistaken, which is where we make an assumption that what is true about part of something must be applied to the rest of it without exception.
In this instance, the inventor may be evil but it does not automatically mean that their inventions are inherently evil.
If there are criticisms of Hyprland, the software itself - then it is a different matter.
I feel like this is kind of a misnomer about how FOSS software gets developed. for one the Vaxry guy is basically the only active dev of Hyprland and if you look at for example the GitHub contribution breakdown he has worked much more on Hyprland stuff than all the other contributors combined. Since this kind of work is essentially free labor for no return simply forking the project and continuing Hyprland without him is infeasible IMO - other Wayland compositors already exist, like sway or niri and some even try to fill the same niche as Hyprland like swayfx (i.e. eye candy effects and smooth animations), so I don’t really see a reason to fork Hyprland when those other compositors can do similar things while already being in active development.
Hyprland is actively being developed by a fascist and that fascist is actively being platformed within the FOSS community through it. I think that is also what OP is trying to say, it doesn’t matter if Hyprland is “good” or “bad” software.
I see. Thanks for expanding on the conversation with this thoughtful reply.
Your reply was also appreciated, thank you.
I thought this was going to be a new article or news, but it’s from April 9, 2024.
I think this situation has been picked over and rehashed now to the point where anyone who was going to change their behaviour will have already done so. If there is no update on the situation then all I see is you dragging up drama from a year ago.
I don’t remember hearing about it before. I might have, but even if so the reminder is helpful.
My first time hearing about it, too
It was recently featured by a top 10 YouTuber.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/8dc50004-a131-4fe5-841d-4a19cba22148.png">
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Sadly there are many people in the open source community who don’t care, to them if the software is good then it doesn’t matter who the artist is.
Specifically with the Linux community I feel like it’s half queer people and half middle aged men and the other half often doesn’t care and likely lean right wing or libertarian anyway.
That’s my opinion at least. Tons of people still use and recommend Proton even though its founder and owner is toxic and harmful to queer people as well.
Imo theres a massive diffrence between using a massive companys software that only runs on their servers and generates money for them, and a completly FOSS tiling desktop that the creator almost quit because they get literally nothing from people using the code. The entire point of open source is to make software that benefits everyone nomatter the original creators views
I get the aspect that usage of open source projects don’t necessarily benefit their dev (for better or worse), but at the end of the day promotion of a software is still promotion of its dev (even if to a much smaller degree) and consequently their reach. I can understand why people like the op would have issues with it being actively recommended.
Have you tried to use only products made by nice guys or nice companies? It’s impossible.
It’s also a bit ironic to post this opinion on Lemmy, whose creators are also bigots.
Gabe Newell is toxic and harmful?
Proton the email service.
What has he done to queer people?
<img alt="reddit-logo" src="https://hexbear.net/api/v3/image_proxy?url=https%3A%2F%2Fchapo.chat%2Fpictrs%2Fimage%2F4aac8007-876f-4c7f-936d-b7eabf506ef4.png"> moment
I don’t care, i care for the tech. I don’t need to make friends with the devs of the tech nor give them my money.
They have different political views than me, yes. Does it affect the tech they develop? Not in my opinion.
Fascism is not an opinion.
Fixed that, you are correct.
Still, I don’t care if they are gay or straight communist or fascist, black yellow white or gray. Software is a tool and its apolitical.
Fascism isnt a political view either. Conservatism is a political view. It also cant be viewed the same as communism or socialism. One is based on feeding, housing and helping everyone while the other is tied to discriminating, abusing and even killing people of different ethnicity and ability.
uhhhh no? its authoritarian capitalism. Mussolini called it a merger of the corporation and the state, and he’s the guy who started it
That’s not what corporatism is, it’s a different meaning of the word “corporation”.
You’re absolutely correct that fascism is an illiberal capitalist ideology, but Mussolini framed their movement as pro-labour, not pro-capitalist. We must learn to recognize Classical Fascism’s class-collaborationist hypothesis as flawed and pro-capitalist, especially since this rhetoric is often echoed in social democracy.
I think it’s really funny how in proprietary software, if you download stuff without asking, you’re presumed to have economically harmed a business. But in free and open source software, if you download stuff without asking, you’re presumed to have economically benefited the random individual that made the project.
If you like hyprland, use it. Just dont prompte it. Dont talk about it. Dont even mention it
Why? We like something. We share it. You may ignore it.
Because promoting hyprland is morally wrong? Its pretty simple
It is not tho
How much wrong does a person have to do for you to consider it morally wrong to promote the things they make?
Why is it wrong to promote the things a shitty person makes?
It’s FOSS, so using it doesn’t give them money. On the other hand, a user might voluntarily donate if they’re unaware.
One might claim they’re being given a platform in the community by people promoting their product, but on the other hand I hear more loudly that they’re toxic, fascist and banned from various places.
Anything else to add?
I don’t have a lot that I would add, but I would just assert that the “user might donate if they’re unaware” is a big enough reason on its own. Even if you promote it alongside a caveat mentioning the moral shortcomings, the people who start using it because of your promotion might also promote it, but there’s no guarantee they’ll keep the caveat (in fact I’d consider it likely that people who will use the product despite the caveat are exceptionally likely to neglect to mention anything in their promotion).
And to your second point I’d say that its pretty indisputable that they are being given a platform, as evidenced by the platform they have. It is a platform that is, as you mention, not subscribed to by a lot of people with a moral backbone, but it is significant.
If I had to give a one-liner for why it is bad to promote the things a shitty person makes, I’d say “its a bit of a Nazi bar thing”.
And in addition to that: It's also kind of a big thing that they get an audience. The more people use the projects, the bigger the audience. They'll get a Discord and people will join because of the project, people will start reading their blog because of the attention via the software... People will maintain and package their software, or use it, or contribute to it... Directly resulting in interactions with the group which develops a project. That's a direct consequence of the project getting attention. And "promoting" is a way to draw attention.
The more people learn to drive, the bigger the chance they’ll get a private car, the more accidents, the more people will die. Thus: let’s recommend everyone to not learn to drive.
I feel this path is sort of a baby-sitting approach to recommendations. Not only do I have to know if the software if good before recommending it, I also have to research if there’s a chance that whoever I’m recommending it to might find a community somewhere for which they might lack enough critical thinking to judge on by themselves?
How about we recommend good software when it’s good while at the same time recommending good ideals / good thoughts when they are good?
How about we just tell the truth as is? I mean in your analogy... Would you recommend a faulty car with the same words you'd choose for a very nice one? Would you hide that the manufacturer does problematic things? I think the way you phrase it, has indeed some things in common for example with recommending a Tesla car these days. Generally, people don't keep their mouth shut about who manufactures them. So yeah, I don't think speaking the truth is babysitting at all... But of course you also don't hide the fact that Hyperland exists and if it's any good. I'd advocate for just stating the facts. As an added bonus, everyone can then go ahead and make that desicion themselves. I mean I personally wouldn't buy a Swasticar. I have less objections using Hyprland. But I always try to give these kind of info out as well, if someone asks me about software. Because I think it's kind of important if a project is healthy, has a nice community etc. I think the comparison with driving cars falls a bit short, since we don't recommend people shouldn't use any desktop. It's fine to use one. And it's also fine to drive a car. You should just be aware of the consequences. And in fact I think it'd be beneficial if we were to drive less cars, for several reasons.
But that’s exactly what I mean when I say recommend good software and recommend good thoughts.
Why do you assume I wanna “hide” problematic information? Did I say that? What I’m saying is don’t hide the fact that good things are good. The good car will be a good car, and the manufacturer being problematic will be a problematic manufacturer.
Recommending the good car does not imply that you support the manufacturer, and denouncing the manufacturer does not imply that their cars are bad and not something we should recommend.
What’s the manufacturer of the device you are using right now?
If a notorious criminal created a cure for cancer, I’ll sing praises to his amazing work, asking everyone to use it. But that dos not mean I approve of their crimes. It would be perfectly consistent with my praise of his work to, at the same time, ask for him to to be judged and sentenced accordingly for the crimes he committed…
The world is not black and white. People are not angels just because they have one good thought, nor do they become monsters that poison everything they touch if they have one wrong thought.
Yeah, seems we're on the same page, then. Because I occasionally get into that situation. People ask me stuff and I'll tell them, there is software XY or Linux distribution XY which does exactly what you're looking for, but it's owned by a company which is known for making problematic business decisions, so wouldn't recommend using it before giving it a good thought if that's going to impede with your application... Or I'll tell them about some software project and simultaneously say, I can't endorse it due to the political stance or behaviour of the devs/maintainers... Happened a few times to me with niche projects, Android distributions and Fediverse projects. I'll then not walk around and advertise for them, but instead only give a complete picture of the situation on request.
And I'll do it in other parts of my life as well... Try to boycott clothes from a particularly bad sweatshop, even if they fit and suit me well... Not buy tasty food if it's from Nesté or the Coca Cola company... Though those are on a different level of "bad" as this one. Just saying toxic things on the internet isn't exactly the same as supporting child labor, slavery and stealing poor people's water supply.
My current device is a Dell laptop I got second hand.
Those are both great points, thanks for explaining.
No worries I’m glad we could discuss it in a way that was helpful!
It’s morally wrong to promote bad things, and morally good to promote good things.
Just because I admire the theories Isaac Newton came up with and I encourage others to learn about them does not mean I support everything Isaac Newton did, said or thought.
All of our society is built on the shoulders of giants who did a lot of “good” despite being, in most cases, “bad people”.
Thats a tangibly different example though right? Isaac Newton isn’t alive to benefit from your support so the moral downside is basically gone. If a modern genius was out here breaking new ground left and right in science but he was also a raging Nazi I certainly wouldn’t be promoting him and I’d be very wary of using any of his breakthroughs
However, let’s centre the conversation back on what it is: a flashy tiling window manager made by a bit of a knob
So the bad thing is the off chance that he would benefit?
Because that’s a very different thing. Then this should not be about judging morals related to the thing they made, but executing punishment for a completely separate thing they did.
Then it’s not a disagreement of morals, it’s a disagreement on the approach you are taking to execute that punishment.
Ah, but will you still use them? will you promote his breakthroughs if they help people? what if his scientific work leads to the cure for cancer?
Punish the nazi political work, promote the scientific work.
Its not “the bad thing” and its not an off chance, but sure let’s roll with that for the sake of having some constructive discussion.
It isn’t about executing punishment, but about the moral implications of my own actions. If, by supporting this theoretical Nazi science genius, I enable him to better perform Nazism, then I have been morally complicit in his Nazism. I think we can agree on that point? Its getting into the weeds a bit with the example, but it feels important to mention, that you could theoretically support this Nazi genius if sufficient measures are taken to ensure that it doesn’t benefit his nazism, thus removing the negative moral outcome. But that starts to fall apart pretty badly in this particular example of the Nazi genius.
Will I use them? Perhaps! Its about the moral outcome, right? If I can sufficiently convince myself that the overall outcome is morally positive (at a very utilitarian level this could perhaps be “does his science save more people than his Nazism kills?”), then it may well be reasonable to support. Its hard to say specifically in this example because I don’t know how lifesaving his research would be and how damaging his Nazism would be. However, the moral downside in the real case we are discussing is “more people are exposed to the creator’s nonsense, he may spread his views further than he otherwise would have” and the moral upside is… I get to use a specific tiling window manager? Which has 0 moral weight so the balance is pretty indisputably an overall negative, though how negative is up in the air based on speculation on how much damage he can do.
I agree in a vacuum with “punish the Nazism and promote the science” but in reality it isn’t that simple. Can one support jkr’s harry potter stuff without supporting her transphobic rampage? Pretty decisively not. Let’s say that harry potter is somehow a moral positive, and that you can in fact somehow cut off JKRs ability to spread hate about trans people, eliminating the negative, then maybe it becomes morally OK to support jkr?
I rambled a bit, but I hope I come across clearly enough.
If you think anything that could benefit him is enabling that, then there’s all sort of things that are complicit. Even the public social services and the State might be complicit, even people who pay taxes might be complicit… international influence/opinion, the whole world, society would be complicit.
I’m a believer of honesty and direct punishment for direct precise problems. The more abstract the punishment, the most likely it is you’d end up with the innocent paying for the sins of the guilty.
I think people should be aware of the exact reasons why something is bad, as opposed to punishing a general abstraction without actually addressing the root of the problem. I’ve seen how this often results in people religiously believing something is good/bad based on sheep thinking, and this leads to situations that actually create more Nazis than what they destroy. An unjust punishment is just a badly patched up wound that will not really heal and instead extend to other parts. Have you considered this in your calculation of moral consequences?
I take into consideration as much as I can take into consideration. I can see the pathway directly from “I support the creator of hyprland” to “the creator of hyprland grows his platform” and I don’t see any moral upside to supporting him, so this is a fairly easy calculation.
As you say, some issues are indeed more nuanced, and may have more complex balances when it comes to morality. I don’t think “not promoting someone” is a punishment, it is a decision. I prefer rehabilitation over punishment, when it comes to individuals, where possible, but that’s neither here nor there.
This truly has strayed so far into the abstract, however. We are talking about a guy who’s nasty who makes a tiling window manager. The moral judgement can only be neutral or negative, theres basically no way that anyone could argue for a moral upside of hyprland, or at least I’d love to see someone try.
I don’t support the TWM: explicitly neutral outcome, morally I do support the TWM: either negative or neutral, morally, depending on what you determine the likely outcome of your support would be
It’s more abstract than that, because this started with “recommending hyperland”, not with “I support the creator of hyprland”.
I assure you most users don’t know (or care) about the creator of the software they use.
I don’t know about you, but me, myself, don’t really know the creators of every piece of libre/open source software I use.
I’ve even contributed to software some changes I wanted, without even knowing or caring who the creators or contributors of the other components were.
So, with that in mind, it’s not hard to imagine how this could raise a few eyebrows in people who do not agree with the approach.
I try to know where my software (and hardware and everything else) comes from for this exact reason, but I understand a lot of people don’t
Can you tell me the political affiliation of the creator of grep? I use that tool a lot.
I think it’s impossible to know for sure what the political thinking of the people involved in everything that happens to have contributed to something in your life is. Some people are not even easy to discern… some people are interpreted out of context, some people are just caught in drama.
I’d rather take advantage of their work, be thankful for it but without any sort of para-social intent, just thankful for the mathematical algorthms.
Not sure, but if you’re interested to know I’m sure the information is out there :)
Edit after your edit:
Its impossible to know everything perfectly, but you can know some things to some degree and take action based on what you do know. Some will choose to not bother, and that is their decision to make, but it is a decision.
Anyway I think we’re talking around in circles at this point. Have a good one.
My morals come from my religion and not from some arbitrary standards set by a Western supremacist, who thinks their culture is superior to everyone else and the rest of the world is “primitive”. Promoting a tool by itself is not morally wrong. It seems like some people have a very low opinion about other people. They think that others will not be able to differentiate between a tool and the morals of its makers. I am sorry that I have a much higher opinion about adults.
Who is the Western supremacist in this scenario and what relationship do they have to morality? Kinda makes or breaks your whole argument
Attention, fame, encouragement, and engagement are also currency, and aiding fascists is fascism. We all deserve to live in a world where fascists don’t feel safe openly declaring themselves.
It’s because proprietary software actually has value
(jk, I’m one of us)
You probably don’t care about my opinion, but one of the reason I don’t really care about this is that I only have the “drama” second hand from very unreliable sources. There is the Vaxry’s version of the story which cannot be trusted because that’s conflict of interest. Then there is Drew, who according to a Distrotube video is quite a bizzare person, who really enjoys to stir the drama and write these extremely misleading “hitpieces” on famous FOSS people. The issue is that to me Distrotube is not a credible source regarding this either because he’s got for me too schizo view of the world. He has a rifle collection, in case he has to fight for his country. (including a rifle, “that’s good for children”)
So it’s just too foggy for me. Well I don’t promote Hyprland because I don’t care about my computer’s “looks” and because according to some (I think) Void dev, Hyprland code is crap. But that’s a different story. Anyways my point is that I can see why people can see it as not that bad.
edit: adding sources for the Drew, Distrotube and Void stuff, in that order. Also the Drew video relies on indirect evidence but for me it’s fairly convincing.
youtube.com/watch?v=NLHIIVppdMw
youtube.com/watch?v=nvQ-ZY460WQ
reddit.com/r/voidlinux/comments/…/on_hyprland
You don’t have to trust Drew, though. Vaxry is pretty clear on his stance on the subject.
Source: blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-inclusiveActivists
Note how this article is not where he first stated the above. This article is where he doubles down on the above statement in the face of criticism. In the rest of the article he presents nazism as an opinion people might have that you disagree with. He argues that his silent acceptance of nazis is the morally correct stance while inclusive communities are toxic actually.
This means that it’s not just Drew or the FDO who are arguing that Vaxry’s complete lack of political stance is creating safe spaces for fascists. It’s Vaxry himself that explicitly states this is happening and that it’s intentional on his part.
To me that’s not controversial at all and does not suggest in the slightest that he’s a fascist, National Socialist or whatever. And he isn’t creating “safe spaces” for these kind of people either. A safe space to me means a place where said people can express their (stupid) opinion freely, which Vaxry according to this statement does not support. Also I don’t have the exact quote but in a different episode of his blogpost saga he claimed that when some person was transphobic, said person was banned. So that would also be supporting evidence that he does not create safe spaces for bigots.
If we’re talking strictly hypothetically, I’m a worse person than Vaxry because unlike me, he claims not to allow bigots to express their opinions in his dicksword server, while I am engaging in communication in a Lemmy community where being a fan of Mao or Stalin is allowed.
He didn’t say anything about Nazism being an opinion you disagree with.
He does argue that his stance is morally correct but what you said is not his stance. I think the following quote implies the point he’s trying to make.
I think his point is that him disallowing ostracising of people creates communities that tolerate all kinds of people including say, LGBT people. The Nazis would be collateral damage of inclusiveness, I suppose. I’m naming specifically LGBT, since in a different quote he’s talking about illegal things in Hungary, which is famously a highly LGBT-discriminating country in the EU:
Also part of his point is that just because someone claims some other person is a bigot, does not mean that’s actually true. The former person could just be lying or otherwise twisting the truth, therefore it’s important to be inclusive:
This is literally the only point the article makes and there’s no point even discussing it further if you’re too blind or dishonest to admit that.
What’s Hyprland?
yeah the only thing it makes me think about is the bbc special with tom baker talking about what hypertext could be like before it was really anything.
its a window manager for Linux
youtu.be/gOGM0uHCDFk
I see. Thanks!
Find a better cause than this nothing burger. Literally nothing better to do but complain about some old discussion. God forbid you forgive and move on. No you said something that offended me years ago and I will not forgive such a terrible transgression. This 'look at me" posting is so tiring. Look at how great I am. Don’t worry everyone I’ll fall on the sword and call out the bad people.
I wouldnt think 2 years is old, and its not like he changed his mind since then, in any capacity. what he did can’t really be forgiven, except if you don’t care about the safety of your peers. yes, I said safety, because people like vaxry often find joy in harming… anyone they don’t like.
Forgive my ignorance, but what did he do?
How long is enough, apologies dont matter either right? If you actually spend the time to read the infraction and response you’ll see people are just bored and looking to make themselves feel important by randomly posting stuff like this unprompted.
well 2 years is obviously not old. 5 maybe.
as I remember their “apology” was a very unnatural, visibly forced and offended thing
Vaxry is not a very smart guy. He originally got a wrist slap by FDO saying don’t do your toxic shit here. Then he followed it up by going postal on the FDO mailing list. Then he put up a blog post where he was like like “SJWs are coming for me”.
blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-inclusiveActivists
The entire argument is that you can’t make an exclusionary space for people (no definition of what that means) but you should be able to call them slurs. Who would want anything to do with him? He should have gone full tilt and made a list of slurs you should be allowed to say beyond just arguing for the R-slur. That would have really convinced people he’s not an extremely toxic right wing weirdo.
blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity
This was his non-apology where he says “lets be real” a lot which is a common way of just ignoring a criticism and then he follows it up with, I should have banned that user instead of doing what I did.
Asking for professionalism in the OSS community is not a huge deal. It’s also quite literally not even about the code AFAIR Drew Devault is still taking Vaxry’s patches. He just doesn’t want him in the community starting shit with people.
The “paradox of tolerance” is a concept I love to bring up time and time again.
No tolerance for the intolerant, lest intolerants take over tolerant spaces and turn them intolerant.
Social contract not a moral imperative.
Or seen as a repeated prisoners dilemma, play tit-for-tat, or maybe (N*tit)-for-tat (where N gives a ‘punitive’ damages expectation for breching the accepted norms).
Quite a lot of lefties don’t like thinking about what is “rational” though because “people aren’t cognitively rational” so rationality based social equilibia can obviously never have any relevance.
Can you elaborate on the last part of your comment? I’m not sure I fully understand, though it sounds like we mostly agree.
I’m not sure why you threw in that digression about political leaning at the end, though. It makes your last statement pretty vague.
I don’t see it as a paradox, but as rational. But there are people who I think do hold tolerance as some sort of moral compulsion, and get offended by the notion that it might just emerge from people figuring out how and why to cooperate, without any high and mighty guiding morality.
These people will also object to using rational models to understand/describe human behaviours, because they can point to many examples of people acting irrationally. Many of these examples are psychology lab “experiments” so are irrelevant to the real world. But plenty of real examples of things like loss aversion and risk (mis)percepion, sunk costs, time-inconsistent decisions and so on where individuals clearly do behave “irrationally”.
I often come across people who believe that this undermines anything any “rational model” has to say. And so I do try to use such reasoning with those people, or even challenge those observations with examples where collective rationality does seem to emerge as a social (not individual) phenomenon, then I’ll be derided as some sort of neo-conservative capitalist fascist or whatever.
So I find that it’s generally good practice to chuck in some insult about one type of political zealot or other every so often, so as to quickly establish where I stand. I’d rather be vague than waste my breath with zealots.
Fuck hyprland
All my homies hate hyprland
Repeat after me:
“You do not support a project or its dev in any way by just using the software you got for free.”
In fact, unless you donate, advertize or contribute to the project, you’re a net drain on its resources.
I don’t disagree exactly, but I’d argue that you’re contributing to the project even if you’re just reporting bugs or helping others with it on e.g. Lemmy.
I could see avoiding all of that pragmatically in order to use some obscure, critical software, but not something you use every day and for which there are reasonable alternatives.
Great, so you agree with OP, who was criticizing people who are:
After reading a lot of the material I am not convinced the hyprland dev can reasonably be called a “fascist”.
It’s an interesting story, though.
WDYM? because being a bigot is not the sams as being a fascist?
yeah actually communist bigots exist, as do Anarcho bigots
yes. and catholic conservatives and neoliberals and social democrats whatnot
thanks for the downvotes. i would still like an answer to my questions
Honestly I just stopped caring about developer’s personalities or political views. If you only use products made by nice guys who share your political views you won’t use anything in your life. Not even a phone.
All the VR users that care about this sort of thing better be aware of Oculus’ founder Palmer Luckey too. Their friends will be so sad when they stop showing up in VR chat
Well, I also have some bad news for the users of Apple, Amazon, Alphabet, Meta, Wal-Mart, Microsoft, Verizon, AT&T, Comcast, Target, FedEx, Dell, Lowe’s, General Electric, Proctor & Gamble, IBM, Nvidia, AMD, Cisco, Publix, Intel, HP, United Airlines, Nike, Oracle, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Dow Chemical Company, Best Buy, Cargill, Koch Industries, H-E-B, Love’s, JPMorgan Chase, Johnson & Johnson,
…I could go on.
Don’t you dare speak ill of HEB.
Uhh if they cared about that they wouldn’t be using a meta owned headset in the first place. Palmer luckey sold oculus to facebook a decade ago
I’m just on the topic of people using tech from a morally compromised creator without being aware. Also idk about how transfering ownership absolves the sin. Even if it wasn’t meta that bought it but instead some ethical company it’s still riding on the shoulders of a giant (piece of shit).
Don’t really get the down votes, maybe VR is a sore spot?
Luckey hasn’t had anything to do with Oculus in years.
your argument is a bit extreme, it doesn’t need to only be software from nice folks, it just needs to not be software made by not nice folks
apart from sqlite, i think everything is replaceable with a bit of compromise
what things made by not nice folks are you locked into?
I agree with the sentiment of supporting nice folks, especially in the FOSS ecosystem.
What OS are you going to use on your Smartphone if you remove software from Google and Apple? What VR headset are you going to use? What telecom are you going to use? Are you only going to shop in local food markets? Lemmy’s creators are also biggots, yet here we are…
I financially support projects and people I like, but I use whatever software I enjoy using. FOSS, closed source, made by a nice guy, bad guy. If I feel my experience is good I’ll use that, if something better appears along the way I’ll move on. I don’t want to be a cop and background check the political views of whoever created all the software, hardware, services, movies, books, etc I use. I’d do nothing else with my life.
People in the FOSS community constantly talk about the best ways to minimise use of Google, Apple and Microsoft products. That is an absolutely valid motivation for choosing to use one project over another.
If someone is willing to use the behaviour of a company or its owners as a factor when choosing a software stack, presumably it’s valid to apply the same sentiment to development teams of smaller projects too.
I’ve gone though the Degoogle journey myself but there’s just no way to run a phone without software made by jerks. And that’s one example.
You can use whatever criteria you want yo pick software, that’s fair. I don’t tend to include politics and personality into the equation myself but I’m not imposing anyone to do the same.
aosp, fdroid, no gservices
not into vr so can’t say
sadly, not a good one. i wish i had a choice, but this isn’t software
sort of? i get fresh stuff from actual markets when i can and when i go for groceries i avoid ultra processed stuff from big multinationals, making sure of the provenance and the maker of the stuff i get, supermarkets also sell stuff from local producers
eh, im still leeching off some other person hosting, im not going to host lemmy and im slowly making my own thing
also can you provide examples? i heard it multiple times, I’m not contesting it, just kinda want to see myself, like with vaxry, and not only trust second hand accusations
no absolutely fine i don’t check all my software too, but when i hear a callout i dont hide behind “art and artist” mentality and move off the bigot’s stuff
While aosp with microg is a step into the right direction, it’s not Google free. Most android code is made by Google and streamed to aosp.
So you think people must only use software made by nice guys but you can use hardware, services, books, movies, etc. from whoever? What makes software so special?
You’re not hosting a lemmy instance but here we adding content, and therefore value, to the platform. I don’t host hyprland either, I am leeching off the entire devs work for zero dollars. Does that make it okay now?
I give more importance to qualities like open source, safety, privacy and performance other than who supports trump or not.
Friends don’t let friends use the shitty fash compositor <3
Friend shouldn’t control what you do, but ok…
Nobody said that, don’t put words in my mouth <3
The main reason why I use open source is precisely because I don’t need or want to worry about this crap. The software is as much property of humanity as it is of the creator, it is basically just knowledge
This! If it is Free Software, it respects everyone’s freedom. If I don’t like the developer, I will not buy them a coffee. If I don’t like the software practices of the developer, a fork is in order (e.g. Oracle with OpenOffice --> LibreOffice)
Absolutely this. Too many people think that because you use some open source software from some fascist dev that “obviously you’re fascist, too”.
Bigotry: obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
Hating on Hyprland users that know what’s going on but still really like the software fits this definition. Plus, isn’t the biggest kick in the face having the exact people you hate use and enjoy your software?
This is exactly why I switched from PolyMC to Prism Launcher. The PolyMC dev was a fascist prick and an anti-gay/trans activist. His fear was that PolyMC was “going to get taken over by the gays due to the name having Poly in it (as in polysexual)”, so he started banning all the devs who disagreed with him or even made a joke about it.
Those devs forked the project and, to rub salt in the wound, made the icon rainbow. But guess what? Its the same software. They forked it because they still liked it and wanted to use it. The software itself had absolutely nothing to do with the dev.
I got the impression that the PolyMC situation was quite different, with that developer masking it and doing a minority of the work, but after one change made by the rest of the developers they snapped, used their control over the repository to remove the rest of the maintainers and take sole control over the repository.
I was aware of some shenanigans and hostility from PolyMC and never used it, but I got the impression there were no major outward signs before that happened?
There really wasn’t a lot of ramp up to it but there were Discord screenshots of his toxic personality being put down in r/feedthebeast at the time and (iirc) one of the devs that actually did do work on the project quoted the whole “poly” thing. Dunno if there was a screen of it, though.
But even before that, there was apparently some horrible stuff that MultiMC did that resulted in PolyMC and other forks in the first place. That whole application has a shady past, tbh.
I’m just trying to say, use Hyprland if you like Hyprland. There WILL be a fork of it someday. That is always guaranteed to happen when a dev becomes a piece of shit. Its all about when it is going to happen, but by all means move over to the fork when it does.
As long as its open source and money does not change hands, you are in no way directly supporting a fascist dev. Once that software is on your PC that software is yours to do what you want with it, not the dev’s. By all means, design your Hyprland as pro-trans with trans flag colors. I endorse that wholeheartedly, in fact. 🏳️⚧️
I just don’t like when people get auto-labeled for something they use or do. Its basic stereotyping and it drives me nuts. A lot of people just don’t want to give the benefit of the doubt to others before even getting to know them. Getting branded because of a piece of software you enjoy is just… its up there, at any rate. I really can’t put words to how frustrated it makes me. I don’t even use Hyprland (I did try it, though). I run KDE because I’m a dirty mouse user. I’m much too smoothbrain for a tiling WM.
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Don’t say nobody cares. I care. Fuck fascists.
You call man a bigot and you make a drama publicly because you can’t stand how he can have a different opinion or way of living than you, right? Guess that makes you… a bigot? 😉
I made myself a promise to donate to Hyprland and Vaxry every time I see bad press against him. And I just made another payment. He makes good software and this is something he should concentrate on and just like many others on this thread: I don’t care if he has one opinion or the other. You don’t like it? Just don’t engage with him, his Discord or Hyprland, let the guy have his space.
Or make another bad press and make me donate again, I’ll happily do that💪🏻
You also donate to the KKK? How’s your investment in anti-trans communities going so far, what’s the ROI? Happy with all the hatred you are fueling?
If you honestly throw KKK and Vaxry into the same bucket then I guess it speaks for yourself: as for me, I’m not going deeper into conversation if this is how it starts ¯_(ツ)_/¯
I didn’t do it. He did that himself, he [pretty much, in other words] said:
“I’m fine with a genocidal transphobe homophobe racist antisemite literal murderer being welcomed of my software community if he was alive now. As long as he keeps his crimes against humanity off the main focus: my project and my project alone.”
Owning the libs by giving a fascist transphobe all my money
I wouldn’t’ve gunned down those minors from ethnic minorities if the leftist SJWs didn’t have so many pronouns!!!
Im looking forward to the full release of cosmic as I dont want to keep using hyprland. Sadly theming is incomplete and it’ll be a while before good themes get released.
Discord fails to include a libre software license text file. We do not control it, anti-libre software.
A belated happy 1st birthday to this blog post
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I disagree with you. Of course having any actual point to disagree with you gets my comment removed, because Lemmy is awesome and is free speech and stuff. Yay. This shit is infuriating.
bruh
There’s no drama like FOSS drama.
Agree with the other comments here saying that not everything in life should be viewed through the prism of politics. Civilised society is comprised of people putting their differences aside to work together on various endeavours.
Use Vivarium instead, it works and it is very featured !
Last commit 2 years ago. :(
github.com/inclement/vivarium
is this the part where i get to smugly use i3? :P
This is akin to MAGA calling the pope marxist cuz he disagrees with them, some people are so one-dimensional its comical, you cant fight stupidity with stupidity, this is how actual fascists justify all of their extremist views, extremism just encourages extremism on the other side and gives those who are indoctrinated a bigger reason to support their indoctrinators. Tunnel vision is one crazy phenomenon 🤡
Regardless of his views I’ll continue using it and supporting it. People will find anything good and look for a reason to ruin it grow tf up.
American politics genuinely makes me lose braincells, backwards fucking country, MAGA or otherwise
Yes, I’m noticing it’s getting worse as time goes on.
We’re rewarded for our hysteria and punished for going against it.
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Vaxry’s a shitbird and I’m glad people aren’t quiet about it. “It’s just software, why does everyone make it political”, mfer software is inherently political. FOSS even more so. You can use whatever you want, but that doesn’t shield you from contributing to a fash asshole’s power within the community. If you’re comfy with that, I’m just as comfy calling you out for letting the Nazi into the bar
Nikola Tesla and Thomas Edison could have both had kids in their basement, would that stop me from using electricity absolutely fucking not, someone invents something I like, and is useful to me, I use it, I don’t fucking care what he thinks about anything, he could be best mates with fucking Kanye and make music about how he fucked his cousin, I’d still use it, it’s open source and useful, he works on it full time from what it seems and maintains it for himself and not you lot and your huge fucking egos who think everything revolves around you. He wanted to make something he’d find useful and decided to share it with the world.
Would you stop using anything mass manufactured, just because Henry Ford, who did in fact have actual Nazi ideals, hated Jews and worker’s rights, invented the conveyor belt, and call anybody that uses mass manufactured items a fascist?
i hate to be a pedant (who am i kidding, i love to be) but they didn’t really invent electricity, so much as discover it and improve on existing technologies. ben franklin was writing about lightning rods a century before. also autoerotic asphyxiation. that’s true, look it up.