"SO proof" distro
from Hozerkiller@lemmy.ca to linux@lemmy.ml on 15 Feb 18:51
https://lemmy.ca/post/39177789
from Hozerkiller@lemmy.ca to linux@lemmy.ml on 15 Feb 18:51
https://lemmy.ca/post/39177789
Any recommendations for a linux distro that i can set up and be reasonably sure my non techy SO won’t break accidentally? The set up doesn’t have to be easy it just has to not break once I leave her alone with it. My first thought was popOS.
My plan is to have 2 profiles and not give her access to sudo. I just don’t want to have to go into it unless she needs a new program.
threaded - newest
Fedora Atomic desktops, specifically Kinoite with KDE6 works well for me, and is basically unbreakable due to the way it works.
I vote the same, but I’d suggest a uBlue spin of the Fedora Atomic desktops. They have better defaults (all batteries included, as they say) and are easier to use overall IMHO. Bluefin and Bazzite are both great options, and both offer KDE and Gnome variants.
universal-blue.org
Edit: TIL the KDE version of Bluefin is called Aurora.
BTW, uBlue is getting some big recognition lately. They have been on the Fedora Podcast (official) and Framework Laptops has official instructions on their website for installing Bluefin and Bazzite.
Gotta be slightly careful with those spins though because there is near-zero documentation.
They have significant documentation, and anything not covered here is just part of Fedora atomic:
docs.bazzite.gg
That is a different spin than the original comment, which is why I made that commen.
docs.getaurora.dev docs.projectbluefin.io aurora has one small page of documentation total unless you click on the logo which suddenly opens a hidden unlabeled drawer with sparse docs. Bluefin has even less. I consider this near-zero documentation. So how would OP’s non-techy girlfriend (or someone who has only heard of aurora and bluefin from this thread) know to go to bazzite, a completely different project to most people, to debug their completely different OS? Because googling “ublue aurora flatpak won’t install” literally gives this page: docs.getaurora.dev/guides/software/ which is literally almost useless.
Bazzite’s documentation has gotten way better since I installed it (they had almost nothing on rpmostree commands when I did), but I don’t believe everything in the documentation for bazzite applies the same to aurora and bluefin, especially with differences in pre-installed non-layered gaming defaults vs working with flatpaks will be not even close to the same.
Also fedora knoite has little documentation docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-kinoite/. It has enough to get you started and installed, but that is about it. It has one single line of code about
rpmostreefor example, not even anything about installing an RPM not in fedora’s limited repos.I didn’t say any of it was bad. Just that you have to be slightly careful with using those for non-techy users because the documentation just isn’t there yet.
What do you feel is missing from the documentation, can you be specific? You’re examples are too generalized to be actionable.
Fedora is a bit too eager to deliver new updates IMO, especially KDE. As much as I love KDE, their .0 releases have had serious bugs several times in a row now. It’s always better to wait for .1 patch with Plasma. It may be hard for the user to break Kinoite, but it won’t save them from bugs.
Fedora’s mission have always been to push new stuff when it’s “mostly ready” at the cost of inconveniencing of some users, so I wouldn’t recommend it for non-tech-savvy people.
I know people say that it’s 100% stable for them (as they do for Arch, Tumbleweed, Debian Sid, etc) but that’s survirorship bias. As any bleeding edge distro, Fedora has its periods of stability that are broken by tumultuous transitions to the new and shiny tech (like it was with Pipewire, Wayland default, major DE upgrades, etc). During these times some people’s setup will break and you don’t know ahead of time if it will be yours.
Pick one of the
stablechannels from Universal Blue. You get the Fedora atomic goodness, but “ready” rather than “mostly ready”.Does it use the same flawed approach as Manjaro by indiscriminately delaying all updates (including critical security fixes)?
It would be whatever Fedora is doing in stable, but that seems unlikely. I’m sure the internet has the answer.
I’ve been on the
latestbranch for a year and it’s been rock solid across 2 different laptops.I don’t think Fedora has a “stable” channel. It has “testing” repo from which updates are pushed to “updates” repo after approval, and that’s it. My understanding is that ublue’s “latest” channel follows Fedora’s “updates”, while “stable” seems to update weekly (though it’s unclear what happens if a package update arrives in Fedora just before “stable” image is about to be built)
eh, gnome is about the same.
i always wait for at least the .1 or .2
Haven’t used GNOME for a while, but I guess that’s a problem of open source projects in general. Though GNOME at least has Red Hat behind it.
Any of them. Just don’t give the root password.
This is what I do with my mom and her boyfriend. I’ve had them on Linux for a few years now and neither have managed to break anything.
Set up Tailscale and an SSH key for remote tech support
Or just wireguard and ssh?
Or just ssh. Personally I’d set up a remote desktop in addition to that
If you already have a public facing server for them to connect to then sure.
.
Might end up in dumb annoying situations like setting up wifi requiring root and such
That is not a thing in userspace. No idea what you’re even alluding to here.
<img alt="" src="https://lemm.ee/pictrs/image/3f5ecc2f-d27b-4d26-83a5-ddfa2582a74c.png">
Surprising amount of stuff requires root (or used to). It reminds me of this glorious rant from Linus from his less domesticated times (that he made on Google Plus hah). …freebsd.org/…/linus-to-opensuse-devs-kill-yourse…
The highlight:
Oof.
This is old as hell, and on a locked down account. You don’t need restrictions like this for a personal use machine, and a base install of any distro wouldn’t have this type of issue whatsoever. It is not a modern concern.
Friend, this is from my own system I’m running right now lol.
Oh wild, I thought “No way!”, but apparently yes way as I (Tumbleweed/KDE/Standard User) get all of this which I imagine would be disorienting to non-Linux users. Just going to Wi-Fi & Networking, not attempting to make any changes even. <img alt="" src="https://awful.systems/pictrs/image/aab96a07-3421-4980-8629-b658fa96975a.png">
Don’t have this issue on archlinux. I think there is a group, which if you are part of, you can change networking settings.
Yes, and it’s a standard group anymore, which is why something is up with these folks saying this affects them.
The common theme with us and the complaint from Linus is openSUSE. Dunno why these groups aren’t set up as default on Tumbleweed, maybe some old and dusty security policy. This case seems to be some polkit nonsense going on, dunno why this is the default. But this is the sort of stuff a user without root password might bump into that would cause them pain.
Then your account is not part of the proper groups to control NetworkManager as integrated in Gnome. That’s on you.
Friend, that’s KDE lol.
Doesn’t matter what DE it is.
Uhhuh. Dunno why you brought up Gnome when it doesn’t seem to be at all relevant
Debian is good at being basic, generic, stable AND has an automatic security-update-in-the-background feature
The whole amount of instruction to give to Dear SO is just to reboot the machine if it ever seems to misbehave
“Hello IT have you tried turning it on and off again?”
Linux mint is a good, “click first” distro that won’t break without root + will be easy for her to use. For something with a more modern desktop and more recent updates, Bazzite is really good at just working and (in my experience) has never broken
Bazzite might be what i go for the more i look at it. Thanks
I like bazzite!
Here’s the bazzite attempt at viral marketing, everyone.
Remember when we saw it for MX Linux?
Be careful about what you install on your computers.
Edit: The incessant, vehement backlash against calling out shilling is always a telltale sign of shilling. Shills are not allowed to let people accuse them of shilling without going through their playbook of what to say next.
I mean it’s not perfect but what is?
I tried MX Linux for a while, it was okay. did I miss something?
I never mentioned perfection.
I hope people reading this can start to recognize shilling when they see it.
Dude you might be paranoid…
Nah. I just wasn’t born yesterday.
Any particular you’re against it?
So you were born today then?
“Someone mentions a distro they like” ≠ shilling. I use Bazzite and have been for months. Before that, used Nobara, EndeavourOS, and vanilla Fedora, along with a number of others I tried when I was distro-hopping. Wholeheartedly believe that Bazzite is currently the best generally-available Linux distro for gaming and is up there for general use. It’s not perfect, but nothing is - it gets close for the use-cases I mentioned, though.
I tried mx for 7 minutes. it installed nvidia drivers and that killed it. off to the next distro I hopped, knowing the problem could have been easy to fix. shame, it seemed interesting.
You know the build scripts which turn Fedora Kinoite into Bazzite are all open on GitHub, right… 🤦
Bro I’m the lead developer and I’m just now seeing this, just accept you called the viral marketing wrong.
We’ve grown to the point that when I market something, I tell people not to listen to me because I’m biased.
Its popular rnow because of all the handhelds I think
I have tried most known distros but not bazzite, yet. might be the next one on my distrohop journey since everyone recommends it. hope it works better than fedora kde, it does not get along with my hardware AT ALL
For me, Mint borked the network after an update. I never got to figure what was wrong - the local network worked, the Internet connection was there and other devices worked through the same router, remote IPs were unreachable so it’s not a DNS problem, etc.
But I might have had an edge case.
Aurora or Bluefin would be great, general purpose distros. They’re based on Fedora Kinoite and Silverblue, respectively, so you get that atomic unbreakability with the addition of some handy software and easy, optional scripts via
ujust.I have Bazzite on a laptop specifically for this reason, so if I ever kick the bucket early, they will have a reliable and portable computer.
Bazzite does seem like a good option, thanks.
Aurora gets a vote from me. I set it up for my technically repulsive father, and he gets on just fine with it.
Use btrfs snapshots. Bring the PC to a state that you like, make a snapshot. Then on shutdown set the profile to reload to the specific snapshot.
Any issues? Just restart. Might take a minute, but it ensures the exact same environment every time.
I would like to avoid BTRFS at all costs if possible. But snapshots are definitely part of my plan.
Why? I have used btrfs for years and haven’t had any issues with it, it functionally works about the same as ext4.
Because ZFS exists.
Most distros don’t offer it as an option when installing afaik due to licensing, while btrfs is usually an option along side ext4
I’ve heard enough horror stories of BTRFS to just use ext4
yeah, the file system tools still suck for btrfs
Don’t worry: people just ignore the btrfs horror stories like they do the ceph ones. That makes it okay.
ZFS gives me a real hardon
So be it. I’ve been using btrfs for a long time now without any real issues. No idea why everyone’s dick gets so hard whenever you mention it.
Doesn’t this mean that the system is never up to date? If so, please don’t.
I mean, yes. You can’t exactly snapshot a system and return it to operational order “under any circumstances” without compromise…
Grub-btrfs is what broke my setup. Btrfs is what broke my backup. This was last week. Come again with btrfs if it gets stable.
An immutable distro would be a good choice. They are distros designed to be more resilient against failure. For a gamer, bazzite is a solid choice; otherwise, silverblue.
Thinly-veiled bazzite shill thread
I honestly had never heard of it till I posted this. To be fair there are a billion linux distros at this point.
I honestly was expecting everyone to say mint.
Plough? Cash-drawer?
Why don’t you try to be useful instead? Is there anything wrong with Bazzite? Are there other distros that are better suited for what OP needs?
Honestly I’m not expecting much from ya. Though, I hope you can surprise me.
Explain how you can shill for a free product which makes no money?
I don’t use Bazzite, but I’m glad to see immutable distros being mentioned as they’re the only sensible option for OP’s use-case
Use Bluefin or some other immutable/atomic distro.
The upside is that it’s rock solid and will likely never fail in a way that cant be easily rolled back. The downside being that it’s slightly more complex to administer than a traditional distro model (which probably isn’t a big problem if you are going to be administering your SO’s PC for the most part.)
Bluefin is basically a more general desktop, less gaming-focused version of Bazzite. Bluefin uses Gnome, but there’s also a KDE Plasma version called Aurora.
Zorin OS is trending
Zorin is a good shout, but it’s definitely not “trending”, it’s been a staple recommendation for over 5 years now.
I’ve set up Linux mint for my sister in law and didn’t hear from her the whole two years she was in college. But nowadays we have immutable distros. They’re fantastic for a set it and forget it kinda thing. They’re solid for those who don’t want things to break.
Does she want this?
If so then just set her up exactly what you have so you can easily help when there’s a problem.
If not then get her the computer she actually wants.
It’s a no money and cant run windows 11 situation.
Consider 0patch before you give up on windows. They do good work and it’s real affordable.
No matter what you do, in this circumstance it’s worth keeping that windows partition around.
I do think whatever you use is the right choice though.
E: I looked up the 0patch pricing and you get a year of patches for a bunch of eol versions of windows like 7 and 10 for $25 a year. It’s a good deal I think for people who don’t want to or can’t upgrade to 11, and they beat Microsoft to a bunch of zero day exploits.
I know you said it’s a no money kind of situation but I really think when ten is still a possibility theres two bucks and some change a month in the budget.
Unless there’s a very specific application need, I think the most sensible thing would be to ditch Windows. Better for security, better for the world to increase the mainstreaming of Linux.
Yeah wouldn’t it be nice…
But the most considerate thing for the user is to help them use what they want to use. There’s also a real benefit to keeping ahold of that windows because people often have their own ways of doing things and it may be more expedient to boot back into 10 than to figure out how to complete some task in Linux.
Aren’t there ways to patch the whatever-it-is that is “required” by W11 that older PCs don’t have so that you can bypass the check and have W11 on older machines? I feel like that’s a better solution than paying for Microsoft’s garbage, if one was bent on not moving to Linux
I suggested 0patch not to bypass some arbitrary check, for which there are many options, but to provide access to security patches and updates after Microsoft stops publishing them for 10.
I guess it depends what she does on her pc.
But ignoring that, Mint without sudo. Throw in flatpaks and appimages.
Immutable distros are probably fine too but in my experience they tend to be a bit fussy if you need to change something in the system config.
Ubuntu, always a solid choice for beginners but Gnome shell is a bigger change from windows conpared to Cinamon.
P.S. I have Mint on our TV PC and my SO handdles it without issues.
Pop all the way
maybe not for a few months since they’re gonna be launching COSMIC this year, which will likely be buggier than usual for a bit.
Sure but 22.04 is LTS without COSMIC and you’ll have plenty time to upgrade to 24.04 with COSMIC
People are complaining 22 packages are getting stale... But these people should be using fedors anyway lol
Ah lol then don’t use LTS? The alpha is out for 24.04
I’ve had my wife on Pop for 3-4 months now but she performed some update in the Pop Shop this week that totally borked the bootloader. I was not able to repair or even get it to see her hard drive.
I was able to mount the drive using the Pop live USB and backup her data. I moved her over to Bazzite, which is what I use.
I have PCs here running pop updated the same way, no issues. Are you sure it wasn’t a hardware problem?
I should probably clarify that I think my wife did something wrong and not Pop. I ran it smoothly for months before moving to Bazzite on my item machine. She knows enough to be dangerous and may have changed something without knowing what it did.
An atomic system would be more SO proof for me.
Aurora by Universal Blue. She will be unable to break it, and it’s so freaking easy to use and install.
While I enjoy using Aurora, there were a bunch of issues popping up over the last few months (e.g. display freezes). I guess that’s the danger of a rolling release cycle, but I’m not sure it’s 100% as foolproof as it needs to be right now.
Aurora is not a rolling release. It’s part of Universal Blue, based on Fedora Silverblue.
Okay, let’s call it a semi-rolling release. Having breaking changes every 6 months is still very often for a set-and-forget system.
Depends on the use case. For example, I actually managed to bork Aurora to the unbootable state while trying to make a VPN work properly a while ago. It didn’t live long :D
OpenSUSE MicroOS
I switched from ubuntu to debian when 12 was released and it’s been fine. Only thing i was worried about was running WoW via lutris but had no issues.
So when my SO windows pc died we bought some newish parts and i installed debian on it as well. Also installed chrome since that’s her browser of choice. She’s still getting used to gnome, but all she needs is browser, WoW, and libreoffice, which is close enough that it hasnt been an issue. She doesn’t even know how to update the system.
If she wants a familiar experience and ease of switching, why not consider KDE or Cinnamon? Both are officially available within Debian.
I thought this was a request for Stack Overflow proof.
Then figured that was 'proof from pasting random crap from SO".
Then figured it’s the same thing.
Any distro will be suitable, create yourself as the first user when installing (which will probably be added to the wheel/sudoers group or whatever) then create a new ‘standard’ user.
Most distribution defaults should be adequate.
For added safety, choose one that is immutable like, for example, Fedora atomic.
I’m gonna be the boring guy.
RedHat Enterprise Linux. (Or Rocky)
Most boring distro ever. Install it, turn on all the auto updates and be happy. Install something to take backups. Ignore any new major-releases, that laptop will die before the OS hits EOL.
Benefits:
Drawbacks:
If you install anything else than RHEL-derivatives or possibly Ubuntu on a machine that someone else will use, you are both in for a world of pain. It has to ”just work” without intervention by you, and it needs to keep working that way for the next 5 years.
Source: Professionally deploying and supporting multiuser desktop Linux to a few thousand users other than myself.
In the era of Flatpak, I kind of agree with you.
The primary drawback is the complete lack of packages. A home user is going to want something not included and then things fall apart. Flatpaks and Distrobox have made that a lot better.
If you could get away with a RHEL core and Flatpak for apps, you would have a pretty solid setup for a “normal” person.
I both agree with you, and kinda disagree.
If you venture into installing Flatpaks on such a system, just keep in mind that:
Keep in mind, like 95% of normal people (we are not normal) don’t know what a package manager is and only use
For that, we need the default desktop install and the Spotify app (probably a Flatpak). That’s about it. It’s a glorified web browser with batteries. Treat it that way and keep it that way, unless your SO has any specific needs and requirements.
The limited and dated package set is kind of a feature. Only packages that should work until the laptop breaks, and only packages that won’t change randomly when you update (mostly).
Really seems like we are agreeing. I get that the limited package set is a feature. I also get that it is both too small and too enterprise to satisfy most people you would describe as a “SO” precisely because they are probably normal people.
You gave the excellent example of Spotify and suggested a Flatpak for that. Honestly, I am not sure where we are in disagreement. Especially since I started by “mostly agreeing” myself. We even agree on that. :)
Nixos with whatever defaults you don’t want her touching, then she can use nix profiles to install extra software if she wants
Has “non techy” evaded you ?
You can install imperatively using nice profiles. So you the OP can set up the base distro in a way their SO can’t break. Then any extra software can be installed imperatively using nix profiles. Any installed software will work as normals. Checking the normal places for configurations if their SO even needs to go that far
In fairness, there are attempts to make Nix user-friendly, such as SnowflakeOS, featuring a lot of improvements including a graphical app store etc, but those are alpha and not ready for an average user.
I recently set up Fedora Kinoite on my dad’s laptop for him and he seems very happy with it. Kinoite is the atomic/immutable version with KDE Plasma by default. Once I’d set up a couple of things everything else he needs can be installed with flatpak (just make sure to set Flathub as the default and disable the Fedora flatpaks repo that ships broken packages all the time)
BLUEFIN.
Or Aurora/Kinoite, for a more familiar experience
If you’re not going to give her sudo access then I’d say it’ll be really hard maybe even impossible to screw up. Also maybe setup a cron job that’ll do auto updates and if needed add in a check to make sure it isn’t uninstalling anything. Also how about immutable distro.
I’ve got my wife and 5 year old on slackware. They wouldn’t know how to screw it up if they wanted to!
Now that’s an extreme choice :D
Doing a lot of tech support, don’t you?
Nope! Everything just works and it’s rock solid. It’s also been my daily driver for over 20 years.
I was doing a lot of tech support when my wife was on endeavouros and my daughter was on bazzite. Tbf, my problems with bazzite were probably down to me not understanding the immutable distro concept.
I can absolutely expect Slackware to be solid; my concern is about user-friendliness :D
Not the easiest distro out there.
On the topic of immutable distros, I more or less understood them and kind of managed to work fine with them, but, honestly, I feel all they do is enforce a certain way to interact with the system that makes screwing it up very hard - but on the other hand, introduces a slew of non-standard and sometimes complicated solutions newbies won’t understand (even for veterans it takes a while to get a grasp on them). If you follow the same pipeline on a mutable distro, you get the same stability plus the ability to do a lot of things without jumping through the hoops.
Right now I ended up on classical non-atomic Fedora for this reason. It features a lot of safe practices from immutable distros - system snapshots before updating, prioritizing flatpaks, container-oriented terminal able to work with Distrobox among all other things - but at the same time it’s a mutable distro able to work with everything else.
Any immutable distro would do I guess
That is, if you have experience running immutable distros yourself and are able to serve as a tech support for them should they ever need it.
A lot is different under the hood, and general Linux knowledge doesn’t always help.
Since less techy people tend to use more the mouse/touchpad anyways, I would pick a hard-to-mess-with desktop environment like Cinnamon or Gnome. With KDE, XFCE and such you can screw panels really easily if you don’t know what you’re doing.
Slap Debian under it and there you go
I prefer Manjaro, super easy.
I’d rather recommend Manjaro to those who want to start out simple, but then get into the details of Linux.
Unless all you do is browsing, Manjaro starts easy but then has a steep curve because it’s still Arch, with the added issue of practically every Manjaro newbie ignoring warnings about AUR and getting to taste the consequences.
It will require you to work with the terminal, troubleshoot, and get to understand your system. This is not bad - that’s how I got into Linux and never looked back after all all, and I generally don’t join the “Manjaro bad” crowd - but this is not a bulletproof “SO distro”.
Mint.
I have my mum (67) and my partner using it.
Libre office and Firefox cover 99.9% of all the things mum actually does.
My partner uses blender, krita and audacity also.
Auto updates… Almost no tech support.
Linux mint makes sense. Auto updates and its hastle free for non techy person like me.
Even if I’m doing something crazy , chatgpt to the rescue.
Any of the ostree variants of Fedora, be they Fedora Official or downstream ones like the Universal Blue family
I’ve installed popOS to a couple of relatives, haven’t had anty issues for a year so far. Can definately recommend!
Semi-serious suggestion: Guix or NixOS. They’re not break-safe per se, but if they do break something, you can use the OS’ previous generations to go back to an operational state. Just… don’t let them use the commands that delete older generations.
(Semi-serious because they’re both not exactly mainstream and not eactly conventional in their setup.)
Yep, NixOS as a base + some Flatpak store for installing apps. In fact, use impermanence to just drop all OS state apart from logs, network settings and flatpaks. That way, “turn it off and then on again” will almost always work to fix the OS.
Fedora Silverblue.
Or really any immutable OS; they would have to go way out of their way to even edit system files, much less break the system. I just recommend Silverblue because gnome is really hard for an inexperienced user to break.