Most consumer hardware on earth does already (Android phones). The problem is those drivers are usually proprietary bullshit that’s very difficult to integrate with anything but OEMs kernel fork & Android version. Unfortunately I don’t really foresee that changing in the near future, hopefully if Linux becomes more mainstream, Linux phones become too and then we get some progress.
And for laptops/desktops, I think the situation is pretty good already as well. Many mainstream OEMs have an option with Linux pre-installed now, and the drivers there are mostly FOSS. I’m hoping that the problematic part vendors e.g. NVidia and Broadcom step up and provide sources for their drivers - otherwise they will continue to be a buggy mess that most people hate.
Nvidia recently started NVK for Turing and newer and even more recently it was made conformant going back to Maxwell, but that still doesn’t give me a lot of hope for everything between Maxwell 1 (so basically just the GTX 750/750Ti for desktop Maxwell 1 cards) and Turing after driver version 580.
Also, Nouveau works for Maxwell 1 and earlier but ymmv with that stack, and it’s still not like Mesa RADV and AMDGPU for Radeon cards going back to GCN1.
LeFantome@programming.dev
on 07 Jul 03:12
nextcollapse
A big factor in Europe right now is a shifting relationship with the US.
Companies, governments, and individuals have some incentive to find alternatives to big US tech. For operating systems, Linux is really the only option.
interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
on 07 Jul 06:33
nextcollapse
Ok is what is the “META” answer to grandma’s laptop is going to get borked.
Put this USB stick in her laptop and press next a bunch of times and she can keep using it.
You have 5 lines of text to explain this solution.
I think the trick has to be that somebody who has a bit of technical skill sets the laptop up initially. I did this for my mom a while back, and once I set it up once, it just worked from there on. Non technical users tend to have a fairly small set of things they need to do like check email, browser the web, and play media. Once that’s working, they never need to change anything. In fact, they don’t want to change anything because they get used to the workflow, and they’re comfortable.
It would be great if people set up community centres where people can bring their old laptops, and somebody switches them over to Linux for them.
interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
on 07 Jul 16:57
collapse
Ok, what I am hearing is Nixos but with an installer like this
Rufus ISO to usb stick
stick usb stick into computer
press magical button to boot usb <-- this should be the most difficult part of the process
Screen appears, least amount of text possible
Ask only the important questions, on a single screen
then one last big scary page
“this will erase everything on your computer”
Check “I understand”
then press"ERASE BUTTON" (or cancel and reboots)
then it reboots and everything your average grandmother needs right there
a google button
an office button
and that’s pretty much it
Hmm, I’ll pitch this idea to a couple of Nixy lfriends, maybe we can hack something together. Also throw a Linux install party!
interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
on 08 Jul 08:33
collapse
Cool, so we need two things,
The most streamlined installer possible.
“Grandma’s Universal Nix.Conf”
The installer should be written using 4th grade simple english, no jargon
In the top right corner there should be a language selector.
There should be only one page of questions.
The installer should work completely offline.
The installer should detect all peripherals and modify the nix file accordingly.
The second page should only be tge warning about erasing everything
The installer should detect if a nixos installation already exist. If it does, then offer the user to repair the bootloader
Optionally, the installer coukd detect a windows installation. Check the amount of free space left on the drive.
In this case instead of a wipe, offer to shrink the windows partition and install nixos in the liberated space. Install a bootloader setup for dual boot. Auto mount the ntfs partition and place a shortcut to the c:\user folder on the desktop.
I think we can be even simpler than that. Don’t ask any questions. Simply generate the hardware-configuration.nix and have a single configuration.nix that is unchanged:
Some easy-to-use and simple DE. I’m thinking something like lxqt or xfce, maybe Pantheon - but that would be more familiar to Mac users than Windows. KDE seems way too complicated to just have it in configuration.nix without touching it, and it can sometimes break on updates.
Chromium (with pre-installed ublock origin)
Libreoffice
Some flatpak store (so that people can install apps without touching configuration.nix)
Make a simple “update” app that just pops up once in a couple weeks or so, prompts you to click a button and then runs npins update and nixos-rebuild boot, and finally annoys you until you reboot (it should also update to the next stable channel when that becomes available, and make that a big deal so that a user understands it might change some of their workflows)
Set up the bootloader so that if a generation “fails” (some script in the autostart of the DE doesn’t set a flag somewhere) on the next boot it boots a previous generation, kinda like Android’s A/B slot system but better. I don’t think systemd-boot allows this sort of thing, but I think it’s possible with a GRUB script
Maybe add a shortcut to open tmate and copy the URL to clipboard, so that you can send it someone in the know and they can help you troubleshoot
Finally, use impermanence to make sure everything outside /home, /nix, and wherever flatpak are stored, is wiped on every reboot and recreated from the generation, so that “reboot it” is a viable troubleshooting strategy.
interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
on 08 Jul 11:44
collapse
Sounds reasonnable,
Installed should be downloaded by going to grandmasnixos.com
On the front page, a single click starts to download a single file, that contains everything
It is a tailored rufus executable with the ISO that contains everything to make it to first desktop boot
When download ends, no internet connection will be required to make it to grandmasnixos desktop
When the file is clicked and a usb stick has been inserted beforehand, the grandmasnixos ISO is preselected, rufus autochooses the usb stick
User only needs to press “start”
The motherboard version is checked against a lookup table, and the user is told
Reboot computer a press $KEY_TO_USB_BOOT and choose to boot the usb key
Installation is a single screen that says “This will erase everything on this computer, to continue, click the checkbox below”
[ ] I understand this will erase everything on my computer
buttons below
[ ERASE AND INSTALL GRANDMASNIXOS ] or [ CANCEL AND REBOOT] (first button only clickable if the checkbox is checked)
(there is an “Options and settings” button somewhere, it does not have to be clicked to continue)
No further user interaction until it boots into a working desktop
There is no password by default, the desktop auto-logs in, no remote access is possible until a password is set, sudo works passwordless
There should be no updating unless enabled, no telemetry, no call home of any kind,
the system should be able to work offline and forever without an internet access and never nag the user.
The desktop environment should be something occasional win10 using grandma will not get lost in
Taskbar at bottom
Desktop that you can dump files onto and start stuff by clicking those files
systray on the right
Large font start menu
Start menu includes a single settings panels that does everything a user needs (passwords, wifi, power management, update, timezone, language, locale, host and domain name, remote desktop etc…)
taskbar should have pinned the most important apps
file browser, browser, calculator, notepad, word-like and maybe a mail client maybe a zoom? client or something equivalent but open source and usable ?
If updating is turned on, it should be very conservative, updates hand curated by grandmasnixos, basically never uses software that hasn’t been proven rock solid for at least 6 months. Rolling back any update should be one-click-trivial
On first boot there could be an “out of box experience” screen that allows setting up
wifi password
region/timezone/locale/language
power settings
host and domain name
password
enable updates
enable remote desktop and services
open easy user guide
So total, from download to desktop it should be 8 clicks total counting press F9 during boot as a “click”
There should be no updating unless enabled <…> and never nag the user.
I disagree, at that point you might as well continue using Win10. Security updates are the #1 reason to do this. Most computer use nowadays is networked (actually in a browser), and it’s super important we keep that updated.
If updating is turned on, it should be very conservative, updates hand curated by grandmasnixos, basically never uses software that hasn’t been proven rock solid for at least 6 months
Eh, this sounds like a lot of work. Probably just use the stable channels, and only manually test when switching to a new stable channel.
Rolling back any update should be one-click-trivial
Agreed, should also be very obvious (like a label on the desktop that says “Issues after update?” and gives you a button to roll back and reboot)
The desktop environment should be something occasional win10 using grandma will not get lost in
This is the main question IMHO. I’ve not used any DEs for a while, so don’t really know which one would fit this best while also being simple and robust.
Yeah basically, a turn key solution where your machine gets wiped and imaged with a Linux distro that does all the basic stuff most people need would be an ideal solution. A good way to look at it would be making sort of a Linux based console for non technical users as opposed to a general purpose computer. Tech people want the latter, but non technical users just want a reliable tool that can reliably handle a few tasks.
interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
on 08 Jul 21:54
collapse
Yes, I find it baffling that this does not yet exist.
I was installing debian the other day and the incessant one-question-at-a-time installation with long delays between the question was aggravating.
In particular since none of these questions really needed to be answered at the time.
Proxmox does it better, but still with annoying questions and limitation like having a mandatory static IP address and making your enter an email address notification. This is all actually optional stuff and it could all be dealt with after the install is completed.
I’ve got only one machine left running Windows 10 at home: a desktop PC I use exclusively for gaming. I increasingly look forward to purging Windows from it and installing Bazzite when the EOL date comes around.
threaded - newest
Ah yes, the year of the Linux desktop
(in all seriousness, this is looking really good, my main hope from all this is that hardware manufacturers step up their FOSS drivers game)
Agreed - and make those drivers open source and unrestricted
When Linux hits 10%, you will see hardware ship with Linux drivers day one.
.
Most consumer hardware on earth does already (Android phones). The problem is those drivers are usually proprietary bullshit that’s very difficult to integrate with anything but OEMs kernel fork & Android version. Unfortunately I don’t really foresee that changing in the near future, hopefully if Linux becomes more mainstream, Linux phones become too and then we get some progress.
And for laptops/desktops, I think the situation is pretty good already as well. Many mainstream OEMs have an option with Linux pre-installed now, and the drivers there are mostly FOSS. I’m hoping that the problematic part vendors e.g. NVidia and Broadcom step up and provide sources for their drivers - otherwise they will continue to be a buggy mess that most people hate.
Nvidia recently started NVK for Turing and newer and even more recently it was made conformant going back to Maxwell, but that still doesn’t give me a lot of hope for everything between Maxwell 1 (so basically just the GTX 750/750Ti for desktop Maxwell 1 cards) and Turing after driver version 580.
Also, Nouveau works for Maxwell 1 and earlier but ymmv with that stack, and it’s still not like Mesa RADV and AMDGPU for Radeon cards going back to GCN1.
A big factor in Europe right now is a shifting relationship with the US.
Companies, governments, and individuals have some incentive to find alternatives to big US tech. For operating systems, Linux is really the only option.
Ok is what is the “META” answer to grandma’s laptop is going to get borked. Put this USB stick in her laptop and press next a bunch of times and she can keep using it. You have 5 lines of text to explain this solution.
I think the trick has to be that somebody who has a bit of technical skill sets the laptop up initially. I did this for my mom a while back, and once I set it up once, it just worked from there on. Non technical users tend to have a fairly small set of things they need to do like check email, browser the web, and play media. Once that’s working, they never need to change anything. In fact, they don’t want to change anything because they get used to the workflow, and they’re comfortable.
It would be great if people set up community centres where people can bring their old laptops, and somebody switches them over to Linux for them.
Ok, what I am hearing is Nixos but with an installer like this
Rufus ISO to usb stick stick usb stick into computer press magical button to boot usb <-- this should be the most difficult part of the process Screen appears, least amount of text possible Ask only the important questions, on a single screen
then one last big scary page “this will erase everything on your computer”
Check “I understand” then press"ERASE BUTTON" (or cancel and reboots)
then it reboots and everything your average grandmother needs right there a google button an office button and that’s pretty much it
Hmm, I’ll pitch this idea to a couple of Nixy lfriends, maybe we can hack something together. Also throw a Linux install party!
Cool, so we need two things, The most streamlined installer possible. “Grandma’s Universal Nix.Conf”
The installer should be written using 4th grade simple english, no jargon
In the top right corner there should be a language selector.
There should be only one page of questions.
The installer should work completely offline.
The installer should detect all peripherals and modify the nix file accordingly.
The second page should only be tge warning about erasing everything
The installer should detect if a nixos installation already exist. If it does, then offer the user to repair the bootloader
Optionally, the installer coukd detect a windows installation. Check the amount of free space left on the drive.
In this case instead of a wipe, offer to shrink the windows partition and install nixos in the liberated space. Install a bootloader setup for dual boot. Auto mount the ntfs partition and place a shortcut to the c:\user folder on the desktop.
I think we can be even simpler than that. Don’t ask any questions. Simply generate the
hardware-configuration.nixand have a singleconfiguration.nixthat is unchanged:configuration.nix)npins updateandnixos-rebuild boot, and finally annoys you until you reboot (it should also update to the next stable channel when that becomes available, and make that a big deal so that a user understands it might change some of their workflows)/home,/nix, and wherever flatpak are stored, is wiped on every reboot and recreated from the generation, so that “reboot it” is a viable troubleshooting strategy.Sounds reasonnable,
Installed should be downloaded by going to grandmasnixos.com On the front page, a single click starts to download a single file, that contains everything It is a tailored rufus executable with the ISO that contains everything to make it to first desktop boot When download ends, no internet connection will be required to make it to grandmasnixos desktop
When the file is clicked and a usb stick has been inserted beforehand, the grandmasnixos ISO is preselected, rufus autochooses the usb stick
User only needs to press “start”
The motherboard version is checked against a lookup table, and the user is told
Reboot computer a press $KEY_TO_USB_BOOT and choose to boot the usb key
Installation is a single screen that says “This will erase everything on this computer, to continue, click the checkbox below” [ ] I understand this will erase everything on my computer buttons below [ ERASE AND INSTALL GRANDMASNIXOS ] or [ CANCEL AND REBOOT] (first button only clickable if the checkbox is checked)
(there is an “Options and settings” button somewhere, it does not have to be clicked to continue)
No further user interaction until it boots into a working desktop
There is no password by default, the desktop auto-logs in, no remote access is possible until a password is set, sudo works passwordless
There should be no updating unless enabled, no telemetry, no call home of any kind, the system should be able to work offline and forever without an internet access and never nag the user.
The desktop environment should be something occasional win10 using grandma will not get lost in
Taskbar at bottom Desktop that you can dump files onto and start stuff by clicking those files systray on the right Large font start menu Start menu includes a single settings panels that does everything a user needs (passwords, wifi, power management, update, timezone, language, locale, host and domain name, remote desktop etc…)
taskbar should have pinned the most important apps file browser, browser, calculator, notepad, word-like and maybe a mail client maybe a zoom? client or something equivalent but open source and usable ?
If updating is turned on, it should be very conservative, updates hand curated by grandmasnixos, basically never uses software that hasn’t been proven rock solid for at least 6 months. Rolling back any update should be one-click-trivial
On first boot there could be an “out of box experience” screen that allows setting up
wifi password region/timezone/locale/language power settings host and domain name password enable updates enable remote desktop and services open easy user guide
So total, from download to desktop it should be 8 clicks total counting press F9 during boot as a “click”
I disagree, at that point you might as well continue using Win10. Security updates are the #1 reason to do this. Most computer use nowadays is networked (actually in a browser), and it’s super important we keep that updated.
Eh, this sounds like a lot of work. Probably just use the stable channels, and only manually test when switching to a new stable channel.
Agreed, should also be very obvious (like a label on the desktop that says “Issues after update?” and gives you a button to roll back and reboot)
This is the main question IMHO. I’ve not used any DEs for a while, so don’t really know which one would fit this best while also being simple and robust.
Yeah basically, a turn key solution where your machine gets wiped and imaged with a Linux distro that does all the basic stuff most people need would be an ideal solution. A good way to look at it would be making sort of a Linux based console for non technical users as opposed to a general purpose computer. Tech people want the latter, but non technical users just want a reliable tool that can reliably handle a few tasks.
Yes, I find it baffling that this does not yet exist. I was installing debian the other day and the incessant one-question-at-a-time installation with long delays between the question was aggravating. In particular since none of these questions really needed to be answered at the time.
Proxmox does it better, but still with annoying questions and limitation like having a mandatory static IP address and making your enter an email address notification. This is all actually optional stuff and it could all be dealt with after the install is completed.
Yup, it’s frustrating that there’s still no process that’s easy enough for a non techie to go through easily.
I really hope that people will make the transition instead of just buying new… Linux is great - and more users will equal more support for it.
Indeed, it kills me how much perfectly hardware is constantly thrown out because Windows refuses to run on it.
I’ve got only one machine left running Windows 10 at home: a desktop PC I use exclusively for gaming. I increasingly look forward to purging Windows from it and installing Bazzite when the EOL date comes around.
But why Bazzite? There is already fedora, opensuse, and everything else