wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Sep 2024 17:14
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Who cares. Why use sub par Type 2 virtualization with DKMS modules when you can use built+in world class, industry standard, Type 1 hypervisor with Qemu+KVM and Virt-Manager? Already has clipboard sharing with qemu-guest-agent.
leo85811nardo@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2024 17:35
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Because they are for different use cases. I use QEMU+KVM on desktop for games and 3D CAD software, because of its undeniable performance advantage. But on work laptop, I use VirtualBox to test my software on different platforms. On VirtualBox it’s relatively easy to initialize a VM, configure network, file sharing and device passthrough, and its snapshot feature allows me recreate the same environment for troubleshooting
wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Sep 2024 17:40
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All this is true using Virt-Manager… Especially if you use the qemu-guest-agent.
leo85811nardo@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2024 17:54
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I just looked them up and maybe you are right. But QEMU definitely lacks a GUI config tool that is both easy to use and allows for advanced features like snapshots. So far the only ones I know is GNOME Boxes and Virt Manager, and neither is as good as providing handy ways to configure as VirtualBox. I could probably just write the XML config or QEMU command by the documentation, but next time it could be a different scenario so I have to investigate the docs and maybe a few more forum posts. In VirtualBox, the buttons that do everything for me are always there
wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Sep 2024 18:19
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But QEMU definitely lacks a GUI config tool that is both easy to use and allows for advanced features like snapshots.
Let me say it louder for the people in the back: virt-manager.org
It literally does everything you mentioned, including allowing you to edit the XML files manually to reach advanced or obscure features that are not exposed. And it can do it remotely via SSH, and it managed LXC and Xen too.
leo85811nardo@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2024 18:36
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Last time I tried Virt manager, I couldn’t figure out bridge networks and ended up corrupted the XML config for the VM. Skill issue for me I guess
wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Sep 2024 20:24
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Bridge networking should be as simple as selecting “bridge” in the network interface setting and putting the name of your bridge interface… You can create a bridge interface with Network-Manager. Or use macvtap.
SomeKindaName@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2024 17:36
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Because at least for me getting a shared folder to work was a total pain in the ass. Virtualbox just worked in that regard.
wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Sep 2024 17:41
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Again, just install qemu-guest-agent. You can even drag and drop files.
data1701d@startrek.website
on 11 Sep 2024 17:41
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I totally agree with you on the Linux side. However, I first got into Linux by using it in Virtualbox on Windows. In the Windows world, as far as I know, it’s the easiest-to-use free-as-in-beer^1^ hypervisor, so long as UEFI support has improved since I last used it.
1: I say this because of the non-libre extension pack.
wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Sep 2024 17:44
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I mean yeah, Qemu/KVM is Linux software. We’re talking about Linux here. Ain’t ever heard of that other thing you speak about. Think I I stalled it once in a VM to run some firmware update on some obscure device.
the_crotch@sh.itjust.works
on 12 Sep 2024 00:02
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Hyper-v is bundled with windows now and is just as easy to use as virtualbox (slightly easier for windows guests since the drivers are bundled in the os)
data1701d@startrek.website
on 12 Sep 2024 00:36
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Who would have thought? I’ve hardly touched Windows in over 2 years (mostly other people’s computers and the occasional app in my GPU-accelerated VM) so I haven’t kept up much.
sanpo@sopuli.xyz
on 11 Sep 2024 17:57
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Because for some reason, no matter what I try, Windows 10 desktop is laggy as hell on Qemu, and smooth out of the box on VirtualBox.
wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Sep 2024 18:18
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Yeah, gotta have that and all that Secure Boot with TPM bullshit, because I’m visualizing a company workstation and nothing will work without those.
wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Sep 2024 20:18
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That’s all available in Qemu/OVMF yeah.
SteveTech@programming.dev
on 12 Sep 2024 00:42
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I’ve had the same experience, you’re much better off RDPing into the VM. But I’d like to know if anyone has a better solution that doesn’t require an extra GPU.
wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
on 12 Sep 2024 03:47
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That’s using the externally developed Cyberus Technology backend though, like I mentioned. As mentioned all over this thread using extensions is rife for license abuse issues.
boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net
on 11 Sep 2024 18:44
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I think VBox is more user friendly? Virt-manager would need a GTK4 (?) update and a few UX improvements.
wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Sep 2024 20:14
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Certainly using a slightly dated Gtk is still more user friendly and better integrated than the god aweful stuff Oracle puts up. What UX improvements are you looking for?
boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net
on 11 Sep 2024 20:32
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I never got clipboard sharing working, on Fedora 40 KDE on Wayland. Probably a Wayland issue.
possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip
on 11 Sep 2024 23:30
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It should work out of the box but if not you can check to see if qemu-guest-agent is running
possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip
on 11 Sep 2024 23:30
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Virtual manager requires a lot less clicks. It also uses libvirt so you can run VMs in the background and on startup.
If you want a better UI look into other clients.
turkalino@lemmy.yachts
on 11 Sep 2024 20:08
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Virtualizing Windows 10 for various binbows-only work stuff
Virtualizing Windows XP to run Office from before it started sucking
wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Sep 2024 20:12
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Why would these not work in KVM exactly?
themoken@startrek.website
on 11 Sep 2024 20:23
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For XP, the machine KVM presents as may be too new, but that isn’t an issue with non-virtualized QEMU.
wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Sep 2024 20:27
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I think it should work with some version of the Q35 chipset, if not PC should work. But Wine might be a better option if you just want to run some old version of office (or frankly just use LibreOffice)
turkalino@lemmy.yachts
on 11 Sep 2024 22:03
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Ok so I guess I am the stupid because I always assumed kernel-level virtualization meant that you were limited to guest OS’s that used the Linux kernel. I was drawing incorrect connections to Docker
TIL
wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Sep 2024 22:58
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Yeah virtualization and containers are very different things. That said virt-manager can be used with LXC as well :)
possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip
on 11 Sep 2024 23:29
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Are you paying for a Virtual box commercial license? They change for every employee in the company not just active users.
Just use KVM and be done with it. You can get the Windows guest drivers and addons from the Fedora project
LeFantome@programming.dev
on 12 Sep 2024 22:20
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They only charge for the “extension pack” ( which is different from “guest additions”
LeFantome@programming.dev
on 12 Sep 2024 22:18
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I teach a class where I use VirtualBox. Students commonly use Windows or Mac. I use Linux.
It is very handily to use VirtualBox where, if I demo something, the same steps will work on the student machine. It is also nice for documentation if you want to show a screenshot.
I have never used the “extension pack” for this so it would be fine. Educational use seems to be permitted regardless.
wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
on 12 Sep 2024 23:13
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Sir or Madame, this is a Wendy’s. You’re in the Linux com here.
nightwatch_admin@feddit.nl
on 11 Sep 2024 17:37
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VBox could be nice, but Oracle is on a licensing hunt for people who install the extension pack on potentially work-related systems. Technically it is free for personal use, but is like explicitly inviting the vampire into your home - nothing might happen, but you wouldn’t know until the moment you have 2 tiny holes in your neck.
laurelraven@lemmy.zip
on 12 Sep 2024 02:36
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They don’t even care if you don’t get the extension pack, we’ve been pestered by those leeches even for the open source licensed for all use main package only
TCB13@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2024 19:57
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Maybe it can be installed in Debian 12 now without much trouble…
wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Sep 2024 20:30
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ouch@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2024 20:59
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Use software owned by Oracle? Fuck that, I would rather get mauled by a bear.
possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip
on 11 Sep 2024 23:26
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What ever you happens, do not use this for commercial purposes. Virtual box is free and libre but the guest addons are not. They will find and bill you for every single person in your company. Not per active user but per employee. This has cost companies millions
Under Linux you can just use KVM. Gnome boxes or virtual manager should work fine.
laurelraven@lemmy.zip
on 12 Sep 2024 02:34
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And they DO NOT CARE if you don’t actually use or install the extensions (unless something has changed, the guest add-ons are part of the free open source part, it’s the extensions for things like USB 2 support that aren’t free for commercial)
You can use it freely, by license, but they’ll come after you anyway
I’m still pissed that they bought Sun, so many great products now controlled by those assholes… Virtual box, MySQL, Solaris, Java…
possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip
on 12 Sep 2024 02:59
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I’ve just seen quite a few posts about companies getting audited by Oracle over Virtual box and Java
LeFantome@programming.dev
on 12 Sep 2024 22:12
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The only license that VirtualBox and the Guest Additions are even released under is GPL3. I do not even see a dual license.
What remedy are they proposing when they come after you? I am not sure I would even take their call or respond to their letter. If I did, I would just send them the GPL text, announce that we are complying, and tell them to pound sand.
I suppose it might be fun to tell them that I got it via IBM or Red Hat or something and to take it up with them. But I probably would not actually be dishonest about. As above, if I got a letter asking me to pay for their GPL software, I would just mutter “idiots” and throw it away. If they want to persist, it would only cost them money and I would continue to respond the same way.
laurelraven@lemmy.zip
on 13 Sep 2024 05:37
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The extension pack does cost and is licensed differently from the core product
I did try that tact, more or less, but the fact is they kept harassing our licensing people and it just wasn’t worth it so we removed every copy of it and used something else
And the truth is, Oracle can throw an ungodly amount of legal hassle at people if they want, right or wrong… Just because you’re in the right and should win doesn’t mean there’ll be anything left of you on the other side, and they won’t have felt a thing while destroying you out of capriciousness
They’re pure evil and even their fully open source products should be avoided like the plague that they are. Hopefully someone will fork them at some point so we don’t have to be tied to that shitty company, but until then, better to just leave them alone, because it’s just not worth the hassle.
LeFantome@programming.dev
on 12 Sep 2024 17:28
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I use the version of VirtualBox that has been modified to use KVM as the back-end. Do you know if it has the same problems?
possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip
on 12 Sep 2024 17:36
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Hard to say. Just be mindful of blindly clicking “accept”
LeFantome@programming.dev
on 12 Sep 2024 17:55
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I do not believe I have had to accept anything. I am installing it from the AUR and it builds from source. Pretty sure it just went straight into the UI the first time I launched it ( without a EULA ).
I will have to look into it. Thank you for the answer through.
Overboard8171@startrek.website
on 12 Sep 2024 20:50
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Guest add-ons are free AFAIK. VirtualBox Extension Pack is not.
LeFantome@programming.dev
on 12 Sep 2024 22:05
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I just looked all this over and, just to clarify, both VirtualBox itself and the Guest Additions are free and released under GPL3.
threaded - newest
Who cares. Why use sub par Type 2 virtualization with DKMS modules when you can use built+in world class, industry standard, Type 1 hypervisor with Qemu+KVM and Virt-Manager? Already has clipboard sharing with qemu-guest-agent.
Because they are for different use cases. I use QEMU+KVM on desktop for games and 3D CAD software, because of its undeniable performance advantage. But on work laptop, I use VirtualBox to test my software on different platforms. On VirtualBox it’s relatively easy to initialize a VM, configure network, file sharing and device passthrough, and its snapshot feature allows me recreate the same environment for troubleshooting
All this is true using Virt-Manager… Especially if you use the qemu-guest-agent.
I just looked them up and maybe you are right. But QEMU definitely lacks a GUI config tool that is both easy to use and allows for advanced features like snapshots. So far the only ones I know is GNOME Boxes and Virt Manager, and neither is as good as providing handy ways to configure as VirtualBox. I could probably just write the XML config or QEMU command by the documentation, but next time it could be a different scenario so I have to investigate the docs and maybe a few more forum posts. In VirtualBox, the buttons that do everything for me are always there
Let me say it louder for the people in the back: virt-manager.org
It literally does everything you mentioned, including allowing you to edit the XML files manually to reach advanced or obscure features that are not exposed. And it can do it remotely via SSH, and it managed LXC and Xen too.
Last time I tried Virt manager, I couldn’t figure out bridge networks and ended up corrupted the XML config for the VM. Skill issue for me I guess
Bridge networking should be as simple as selecting “bridge” in the network interface setting and putting the name of your bridge interface… You can create a bridge interface with Network-Manager. Or use macvtap.
.
Because at least for me getting a shared folder to work was a total pain in the ass. Virtualbox just worked in that regard.
Again, just install qemu-guest-agent. You can even drag and drop files.
I totally agree with you on the Linux side. However, I first got into Linux by using it in Virtualbox on Windows. In the Windows world, as far as I know, it’s the easiest-to-use free-as-in-beer^1^ hypervisor, so long as UEFI support has improved since I last used it.
1: I say this because of the non-libre extension pack.
I mean yeah, Qemu/KVM is Linux software. We’re talking about Linux here. Ain’t ever heard of that other thing you speak about. Think I I stalled it once in a VM to run some firmware update on some obscure device.
Hyper-v is bundled with windows now and is just as easy to use as virtualbox (slightly easier for windows guests since the drivers are bundled in the os)
Who would have thought? I’ve hardly touched Windows in over 2 years (mostly other people’s computers and the occasional app in my GPU-accelerated VM) so I haven’t kept up much.
Because for some reason, no matter what I try, Windows 10 desktop is laggy as hell on Qemu, and smooth out of the box on VirtualBox.
Are you using UEFI in Qemu?
Yeah, gotta have that and all that Secure Boot with TPM bullshit, because I’m visualizing a company workstation and nothing will work without those.
That’s all available in Qemu/OVMF yeah.
I’ve had the same experience, you’re much better off RDPing into the VM. But I’d like to know if anyone has a better solution that doesn’t require an extra GPU.
.
vbox is easy. qemu is kinda frustrating to use sometimes, although virt-manager makes it a little easier
Virt-Manager provides a complete UI, with a four step wizard to creating a VM, how is vbox any easier?
Vbox will create a bridge with my wifi card (I’m a laptop user with no option for a wired nic in the host).
I’ve never been able to get kvm to do that and haven’t found any working instructions online that a simpleton like me can follow
Create the bridge with Network Manager advanced config, voilà!
.
vbox is easy until it starts saying vt-d isn’t enabled and refuses to start when it fact it is.
Doesn’t VirtualBox use KVM if it’s available?
I like
VBoxManage. Any crazy thing I’ve ever imagined doing with a VM it’s already supported.So, to answer your question - I use VirtualBox because it does everything I want and I’ve never had a reason to look elsewhere.
No, VBox does not use KVM unless you use some off brand backend, which is an extra layer of complexity and software you must install and manage.
Absolutely everything you might want to do with VBoxManager is going to be available via virsh and the multiple libviet utilities.
Not using Type 2 hypervisor would be a good one. Not being beholden to Oracle’s shitry licensing schemes is certainly another.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ca/pictrs/image/12480db5-b81e-49ee-89f9-9f5ee6441c46.png">
That’s using the externally developed Cyberus Technology backend though, like I mentioned. As mentioned all over this thread using extensions is rife for license abuse issues.
I think VBox is more user friendly? Virt-manager would need a GTK4 (?) update and a few UX improvements.
Certainly using a slightly dated Gtk is still more user friendly and better integrated than the god aweful stuff Oracle puts up. What UX improvements are you looking for?
I never got clipboard sharing working, on Fedora 40 KDE on Wayland. Probably a Wayland issue.
It should work out of the box but if not you can check to see if qemu-guest-agent is running
Virtual manager requires a lot less clicks. It also uses libvirt so you can run VMs in the background and on startup.
If you want a better UI look into other clients.
Virtualizing Windows 10 for various binbows-only work stuff
Virtualizing Windows XP to run Office from before it started sucking
Why would these not work in KVM exactly?
For XP, the machine KVM presents as may be too new, but that isn’t an issue with non-virtualized QEMU.
I think it should work with some version of the Q35 chipset, if not
PCshould work. But Wine might be a better option if you just want to run some old version of office (or frankly just use LibreOffice)Ok so I guess I am the stupid because I always assumed kernel-level virtualization meant that you were limited to guest OS’s that used the Linux kernel. I was drawing incorrect connections to Docker
TIL
Yeah virtualization and containers are very different things. That said virt-manager can be used with LXC as well :)
Are you paying for a Virtual box commercial license? They change for every employee in the company not just active users.
Just use KVM and be done with it. You can get the Windows guest drivers and addons from the Fedora project
They only charge for the “extension pack” ( which is different from “guest additions”
I teach a class where I use VirtualBox. Students commonly use Windows or Mac. I use Linux.
It is very handily to use VirtualBox where, if I demo something, the same steps will work on the student machine. It is also nice for documentation if you want to show a screenshot.
I have never used the “extension pack” for this so it would be fine. Educational use seems to be permitted regardless.
Sir or Madame, this is a Wendy’s. You’re in the Linux com here.
VBox could be nice, but Oracle is on a licensing hunt for people who install the extension pack on potentially work-related systems. Technically it is free for personal use, but is like explicitly inviting the vampire into your home - nothing might happen, but you wouldn’t know until the moment you have 2 tiny holes in your neck.
They don’t even care if you don’t get the extension pack, we’ve been pestered by those leeches even for the open source licensed for all use main package only
Maybe it can be installed in Debian 12 now without much trouble…
Why would you do that?
Use software owned by Oracle? Fuck that, I would rather get mauled by a bear.
What ever you happens, do not use this for commercial purposes. Virtual box is free and libre but the guest addons are not. They will find and bill you for every single person in your company. Not per active user but per employee. This has cost companies millions
Under Linux you can just use KVM. Gnome boxes or virtual manager should work fine.
And they DO NOT CARE if you don’t actually use or install the extensions (unless something has changed, the guest add-ons are part of the free open source part, it’s the extensions for things like USB 2 support that aren’t free for commercial)
You can use it freely, by license, but they’ll come after you anyway
I’m still pissed that they bought Sun, so many great products now controlled by those assholes… Virtual box, MySQL, Solaris, Java…
I’ve just seen quite a few posts about companies getting audited by Oracle over Virtual box and Java
The only license that VirtualBox and the Guest Additions are even released under is GPL3. I do not even see a dual license.
What remedy are they proposing when they come after you? I am not sure I would even take their call or respond to their letter. If I did, I would just send them the GPL text, announce that we are complying, and tell them to pound sand.
I suppose it might be fun to tell them that I got it via IBM or Red Hat or something and to take it up with them. But I probably would not actually be dishonest about. As above, if I got a letter asking me to pay for their GPL software, I would just mutter “idiots” and throw it away. If they want to persist, it would only cost them money and I would continue to respond the same way.
The extension pack does cost and is licensed differently from the core product
I did try that tact, more or less, but the fact is they kept harassing our licensing people and it just wasn’t worth it so we removed every copy of it and used something else
And the truth is, Oracle can throw an ungodly amount of legal hassle at people if they want, right or wrong… Just because you’re in the right and should win doesn’t mean there’ll be anything left of you on the other side, and they won’t have felt a thing while destroying you out of capriciousness
They’re pure evil and even their fully open source products should be avoided like the plague that they are. Hopefully someone will fork them at some point so we don’t have to be tied to that shitty company, but until then, better to just leave them alone, because it’s just not worth the hassle.
I use the version of VirtualBox that has been modified to use KVM as the back-end. Do you know if it has the same problems?
Hard to say. Just be mindful of blindly clicking “accept”
I do not believe I have had to accept anything. I am installing it from the AUR and it builds from source. Pretty sure it just went straight into the UI the first time I launched it ( without a EULA ).
I will have to look into it. Thank you for the answer through.
Guest add-ons are free AFAIK. VirtualBox Extension Pack is not.
I just looked all this over and, just to clarify, both VirtualBox itself and the Guest Additions are free and released under GPL3.
www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Licensing_FAQ
What is not free is the separately downloadable “VirtualBox Extension Pack”.
As long as you stay away from the “Extension Pack”, you are ok.
Neat. As I am in the process of fully migrating to wayland, it is good. I only work as a teacher, so I don’t really concern about licensing, lol.