Understanding Linux and choosing your first Linux distro, v2.0
from wfh@lemm.ee to linux@lemmy.ml on 22 Jul 2024 09:09
https://lemm.ee/post/37682729

You’re about to take your first steps in the wonderful world of Linux, but you’re overwhelmed by the amount of choices? Welcome to this (I hope) very simple guide :)

The aim of this guide is to provide simple, clear information to ease your transition as a beginner. This is not a be-all-end-all guide nor an advanced guide. Because there is a lot of info and explanations everywhere, I will often (over-)simplify so as to keep the information accessible and digestible. Please refrain from asking to add your favorite distro/DE in the comments, I feel there is too much choice already ;)

Preamble

Make sure your hardware is compatible

Nowadays most relatively recent hardware works perfectly fine on Linux, but there are some edge cases still. If you don’t use niche hardware and your wifi card is supported, chances are you’re golden. Please note that nVidia is a bad faith player in the Linux world, so if you have a GeForce GPU, expect some trouble.

Make sure your favourite apps are either available or have a good replacement on Linux

If some proprietary app is essential to your workflow and is irreplaceable, consider running it in a VM, keeping a Windows partition for it or try and run it through Wine (this is advanced stuff though).

Be aware that Linux is not Windows/MacOS

Things work differently, and this is normal. You will probably struggle at the beginning while adjusting to a new paradigm. You may have to troubleshoot some things. You may break some things in the process. You will probably get frustrated at some point or another. It’s okay. You’re learning something new, and it can be hard to shed old habits forged by years on another system.

When in doubt, search for documentation

Arch Wiki is one of the greatest knowledge bases about Linux. Despite being heavily tied to Arch, most of its content is readily usable to troubleshoot most modern distros, as the building blocks (Kernel, systemd, core system apps, XOrg/Wayland, your DE of choice etc.) are the same. Most distros also maintain their own knowledge base.

Understanding the Linux world

What is Linux?

Linux, in the strictest definition, is the kernel, ie. the core component that, among other things, orchestrates and handles all interactions between hardware and software, of a large family of operating systems that, by metonymy, are called “Linux”. In general understanding, Linux is any one of these operating systems, called distros.

What is a distro?

A distro, short for “Software Distribution”, is a cohesive ensemble of software, providing a full operating system, maintained by a single team. Generally, all of them tend to provide almost the same software and work in a very similar way, but there are major philosophical differences that may influence your choice.

What are the main differences between distros?

As said above, there are a lot of philosophical differences between distros that lead to practical differences. There are a lot of very different ways the same software can be distributed.

What are the main components of a distro, ie. a Linux-based operating system?

All distros provide, install and maintain, among other things, the following components:

Which are the main Desktop Environments and which one should I choose?

As a new user, this is basically the only thing you should concern yourself about: choosing a first Desktop environment. After all, it will be your main interface for the weeks/years to come. It’s almost as important as choosing your first distro. These are a few common choices that cater to different tastes:

As for which one you should choose, this is entirely up to you, and depends on your preferences. FYI, you are not married to your distro’s default desktop environment. It’s just what comes preinstalled. You can install alternative DEs on any distro, no need to reinstall and/or distro-hop.

How do I install stuff on Linux?

Forget what you’re used to do on Windows of MacOS: searching for your software in a seach engine, finding a big “Download” button on a random website and running an installer with administator privileges. Your package manager not only keeps you system up to date, but also lets you install any software that’s available in your distro’s repositories. You don’t even need to know the command line, Gnome’s Software or Plasma’s Discover are nice graphical “App Stores” that let you find and install new software.

Flatpak are a great and more recent recent alternative to distro packages that’s gaining a lot of traction, and is increasingly integrated by default to the aforementioned App Stores. It’s basically a “universal” package manager system thet sits next to your system, that lets software developers directly distribute their own apps instead of offloading the packaging and distribution to distro maintainers.

Choosing a first distro

As discussed before, there is a metric fuckload (or 1.112 imperial fucktons) of distros out there. I advise you to keep it as mainstream as possible for your first steps. A distro with a large user base, backed by a decently large community of maintainers and contributors and aimed at being as fuss-free as possible is always better than a one-person effort tailored to a specific use-case. Choose a distro that implements well the DE of your choice.

What are great distros for beginners?

The following are great distros for beginners as well as more advanced users who just want to have a system that needs almost no configuration out of the box, just works and stays out of the way. Always read the installation documentation thoroughly before attempting anything, and follow any post-install requirements (for example, installing restricted-licence drivers on Fedora).

Which power-user distros should I avoid as a beginner, unless I reaaaally need to understand everything instead of being productive day one?

These are amongst the very best but should not be installed as your first distro, unless you like extremely steep learning curves and being overwhelmed.

Which distro should I avoid, period?

Philosophical questions, or “I’ve seen people arguing over the Internet and now I’m scared”

You’ve done your research, you’re almost ready to take the plunge, you even read a lot of stuff on this very community or on the other website that starts with a “R”, but people seem very passionately for or against stuff. What should you do?

Shoud I learn the command line?

Yes, eventually. To be honest, nowadays a lot of things can be configured on the fly graphically, through your DE’s settings. But sometimes, it’s much more efficient to work on the command line, and sometimes it’s the only way to fix something. It’s not that difficult, and you can be reasonably productive by understanding just about a dozen very simple commands.

I have a very old laptop/desktop, should I use a distro from its era?

Noooo!. Contrary to Windows and MacOS which only work correctly on period-correct computers, Linux runs perfectly well on any hardware from the last 20 to 30 years. You will not gain performance by using an old distro, but you will gain hundreds of critical security flaws that have been since corrected. If you need to squeeze performance out of an old computer, use a lightweight graphical environment or repurpose it as a headless home server. If it’s possible, one of the best ways to breathe new life into an old machine is to add some RAM, as even lightweight modern sofware will struggle with less than a few Gb.

Should I be concerned about systemd?

No. In short, systemd is fine and all major distros have switched to systemd years ago. Even the extremely cautious people behind Debian have used systemd as default since 2015. Not wanting to use systemd is a niche more rooted in philosophical and ideological rather than practical or technical reasons, and leads to much deeper issues than you should concern yourself with as a beginner.

Should I be concerned about XOrg/Wayland?

Yes and No, but mostly No. First off, most distros install both Wayland and XOrg by default, so if one is not satisfying to you, try the other. Remember in the preamble when I said nVidia was a bad actor? Well, most of people’s complaints about Wayland are because of nVidia and their shitty drivers, so GTX/RTX users should stay on XOrg for now. But like it or not, XOrg is dead and unmaintained, and Wayland is the present and future. XOrg did too many things, carried too many features from the 80’s and 90’s and its codebase is a barely maintainable mess. X11 was born in a time when mainframes did most of the heavy lifting and windows were forwarded over a local network to dumb clients. X11 predates the Internet and has basically no security model. Wayland solves that by being a much simpler display protocol with a much smaller feature set adapted to modern computing and security. The only downside is that some very specific functionalities based on decades of X11 hacking and absolute lack of security can be lost.

I want to play some games, should I look for a gaming distro?

No. General purpose distros are perfectly fine for gaming. You can install Steam, Lutris, Heroic, Itch etc. and use Proton just fine on almost anything. Even Debian. In short, yes, you can game on Linux, there are great tutorials on the internet.

Should I be concerned about Flatpaks and/or Snaps vs. native packages?

Not really. Flatpaks are great, and more and more developers package their apps directly in Flatpak format. As a rule of thumb, for user facing applications, if your app store gives you the choice between Flatpak and your native package manager version, choose the most recent stable version and/or the one packaged by the developer themselves (which should often be the Flatpak anyway). Snaps however are kinda bad. They are a Canonical/Ubuntu thing, so as long as you avoid Ubuntu, its spins and its derivatives that still include Snaps, you should be fine. They tend to take a lot longer to startup than regular apps or Flatpaks, the snap store is proprietary, centralized and Canonical controls every part of it. Also, Canonical is very aggressive in pushing snaps to their users, even forcing them even when they want to install an apt package. If you don’t care, have fun.

I need/want program “x”, but it is only available on distro “y” and not on mine. I’ve been told to ditch my beloved distro and install the other one, should I?

No. Generally, most software is intallable from your distro’s package manager and/or Flatpak. But sometimes, your distro doesn’t package this program you need, or an inconsiderate developer only distributes a random .deb on their Github release page. Enter Distrobox. It is a very simple, easy to use command line tool that automates the creation of other Linux distros containers using Docker or Podman (basically, tiny, semi-independant Linuxes that live inside your regular Linux), and lets you “export” programs installed inside these containers to you main system so you can run them as easily and with almost the same performance as native programs. Some atomic distros like uBlue’s variants even include it by default. That .deb we’ve talked about before? Spin a Debian container and dpkg install the shit out of it. Absolutely need the AUR? Spin an Arch container and go to town.

Acknowledgements

Thanks to everyone who helped improve this guide: @GravitySpoiled@lemmy.ml, @tkn@startrek.website, @throwaway2@lemmy.today, @cerement@slrpnk.net, @kzhe@lemm.ee, @freijon@feddit.ch, @aarroyoc@lemuria.es, @SexualPolytope@lemmy.sdf.org, @Plopp@lemmy.world, @bsergay@discuss.online …and many others who chimed in in the comments <3

Link to version 1: lemm.ee/post/15895051

#linux

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DieserTypMatthias@lemmy.ml on 22 Jul 2024 09:59 next collapse

It’d be nice to mention Pantheon and elementaryOS.

bsergay@discuss.online on 22 Jul 2024 13:04 collapse

I’m well aware that both elementaryOS and its Pantheon DE were innovative and made major strides for user-friendliness a couple of years back. Hence, they rightfully earned a spot among the newbie-friendly distros. However, I might be wrong, but it feels as if they haven’t been able to keep momentum. And therefore lost their significance.

If you think I’m wrong, please feel free to correct me; I would love to be educated on how elementaryOS has kept relevance (if they actually have).

aarroyoc@lemuria.es on 22 Jul 2024 10:10 next collapse

I agree that Alpine Linux shouldn’t be recommended to newbies but I don’t like the explanation. Distros like Alpine Linux are good for the whole Linux ecosystem, as they avoid monoculture and bring diversity to the software, which in turn they foster competition. Like a biological ecosystem, betting everything into one particular specie is a recipe for disaster. Some examples: Glibc has found many bugs because musl did things differently, and it turned out that glibc was not following the standard (also musl had bugs on its own), GCC was stuck until Clang came out and developers started to prefer Clang,…

SexualPolytope@lemmy.sdf.org on 22 Jul 2024 10:44 next collapse

Very good write up overall. I’ll start by admitting that I didn’t read all of it. But from the parts that I did read, I have some small comments. I think that Debian Stable is a great beginner distro, since it’s essentially unbreakable. With something like KDE Plasma as a DE, it’s perfect for noobs. EndeavourOS is another great one. Maybe not for beginners, but for semi-advanced usecases.

Also, I’m not sure about suggesting the Atomic family of dostros to newcomers. It might be my relative unfamiliarity with them, but I don’t think immutable distro are a good place to start. They’re definitely great to try when you’re familiar with Linux, but they’re still kind of fringe. It’s hard to get support using those.

bsergay@discuss.online on 22 Jul 2024 11:20 next collapse

but I don’t think immutable distro are a good place to start.

FWIW, the first distro I used and subsequently daily-drove^[1]^ was Fedora Silverblue over two years ago. The try-hard in me immediately started off (or at least tried) applying the hardening outlined in Madaidan’s article. After banging my head for a week, I started actually using the system and it has been a very smooth ride ever since. The uBlue images are straight up better when it comes to the OOTB-experience without even mentioning the associated ‘managed’^[2]^ aspect that comes with it. Therefore, I believe that they’re perfectly suitable. They’re not for everyone, but no distro is anyways.


  1. I forgot to mention how simultaneously I quit Windows cold turkey as well.
  2. The uBlue images are able to ‘prevent’ breakages that would otherwise affect everyone.
Plopp@lemmy.world on 22 Jul 2024 11:51 next collapse

I think immutable distros could be great for newbies, but I’m just thinking they’re still so new that if you go online to look for Linux advice or help, most things you’ll find are very much not for immutables and I doubt a true newbie understands what’s what.

That’s also a reason I’d recommend something like Debian (although I’ve actually never even used it myself) because there’s so much compatible info out there. I would recommend OpenSUSE, even Tumbleweed, but there’s just not as much help or there to find as there is for Debian. But even with that said, OpenSUSEs snapshots and the way they’re configured out of the box is an absolute godsend and game changer for newcomers.

bsergay@discuss.online on 22 Jul 2024 13:14 next collapse

I think immutable distros could be great for newbies, but I’m just thinking they’re still so new that if you go online to look for Linux advice or help, most things you’ll find are very much not for immutables and I doubt a true newbie understands what’s what.

I definitely agree. But, I think it’s sufficient to communicate to new uBlue users that they should check uBlue’s own documentation first. And, if they didn’t find the answer there, that they should ask on discourse or on Discord.

I only addressed this for new uBlue users as I don’t think other immutable distros are sufficiently newbie-friendly yet.

wfh@lemm.ee on 22 Jul 2024 13:38 next collapse

I’m doing an experiment right now. I’m giving my previous laptop to my dad to replace his very old, very close to death MacBook Air. I’ve installed Bluefin, rebased to the Stable branch and keeping everything else stock.

We’ll see how it goes :D

bsergay@discuss.online on 22 Jul 2024 14:03 collapse

Hehe, consider to keep us updated 😜.

wfh@lemm.ee on 22 Jul 2024 14:13 collapse

Will report :D

The only thing that scares me a bit is that not only he’s a newbie, he also actively refuses to understand how computers work ^^;

bsergay@discuss.online on 22 Jul 2024 14:35 collapse

Perhaps that makes him the perfect candidate 😂.

Plopp@lemmy.world on 22 Jul 2024 14:40 collapse

Totally agree with that. I’m just wondering how many people read things like welcome screens etc where such info usually is presented.

They should have all necessary software installed and configured for people to easily get to things like those you mentioned. And have a clear help section in the OS, preferably with sections for different large topics and what not, that links to forum sections or similar. Steer them right before they even hit the web sort of.

bsergay@discuss.online on 22 Jul 2024 16:14 collapse

Wonderfully laid out. Couldn’t agree more.

I’m also curious to find out how effective welcome screens are.

I suppose the most effective would be if the user is told how to act whenever they’re about to commit a ‘mistake’; after which they’re friendly reminded what they should do instead 😅. But I believe that’s a gargantuan effort to effectively gameify the distro 😂. Cool idea though; hopefully some iteration is already in the works.

MonkeMischief@lemmy.today on 24 Jul 2024 08:13 collapse

OpenSUSEs snapshots and the way they’re configured out of the box is an absolute godsend and gangbanger for newcomers.

I have a general idea of how to set this sort of thing up in almost any distro now, but this is absolutely one of the ideas that swept me off my feet with OpenSUSE. I like a lot of distros but keep coming back to that wild little tumbleweed chameleon/geeko. :D

Plopp@lemmy.world on 25 Jul 2024 05:59 collapse

It’s huge. I’ve been using ~10 distros sporadically over the past 25 years, and I never ever felt like I could depend on my systems running Linux. Because one simple mistake by either me or an update could render the computer unusable because I didn’t (and still don’t) know how to fix it. And that was always something that finally happened that made me revert to Windows full time. Tumbleweed is the first distro ever where I feel like I’m standing on solid ground instead of on a house of cards that I can’t put back together, because of the snapshots. It gives me confidence and I feel like I finally can use Linux while slowly learning it at my own pace. Absolutely love it.

Also, I see that I have a typo to fix in my previous comment lol.

wfh@lemm.ee on 22 Jul 2024 12:34 collapse

Good call about Atomic distros, I’m adding some precisions.

bsergay@discuss.online on 22 Jul 2024 11:03 next collapse

First of all, thank you for this! This effort is very much appreciated and will definitely make it easier to parse through Linux; especially for beginners.

Having said that, some personal nitpicks of mine:

  • I absolutely love Fedora. But if it’s named first on your list of beginner distros (presumably due to alphabetical ordering), then it better be easy as hell and work as expected OOTB. Unfortunately, that ain’t the case. Hence, at least mentioning the Howto page of RPM Fusion would have been sensible to combat issues users might experience otherwise.
  • I’m fine with the inclusion of openSUSE Aeon, but openSUSE Kalpa is literally in Alpha. Therefore, it’s too early to be recommended.
  • I’m personally not very bothered with Fedora Workstation on the list of distros geared towards beginners, while Debian is found on the list of power-user distros that beginners should avoid instead. (I’m a die hard Fedora fanboy anyways.) However, I am curious to your reasoning/justification.
  • Alpine Linux was originally envisioned as an embedded-first distribution. Therefore, most of its design choices revolve around that; small, secure, simple et cetera. The way that you describe/depict Alpine Linux, is more in line with how I would for (what I’d refer to as) demonstrative distros like Artix and Devuan.
wfh@lemm.ee on 22 Jul 2024 12:33 collapse

I pondered a lot including a bit about rpmfusion in Fedora’s paragraph, but I elected not to because there is already too much stuff here :D

As a 20-years Debian user who switched to Fedora a couple years ago on my main laptop, I would say confidently that Debian is the distro I’m the most comfortable with. I love Debian. But, there are a couple things that prevent me from recommending it as a very first distro:

  • The base system is very barebones and you’re required to manually install vital things like proprietary drivers (I think it’s a bit more painless now with the nonfree installer but I haven’t installed a fresh Debian in a few years). For me, having a fully functional Debian laptop is not hard work but requires a bit of knowledge beforehand.
  • A lot of people want the latest and shiniest, and with Debian might be tempted to switch to Testing or Sid which is a very bad idea for a daily driver.

Good call about Kalpa, I’m removing it

bsergay@discuss.online on 22 Jul 2024 13:21 next collapse

Thank you for the clarifications!

Regarding what you mentioned on Debian; ultimately, you’re a lot more experienced than I am with it. But, IIUC, Debian 12 should have done a great job at easing (new) users into its ecosystem. Not sure if it’s sufficient though.

wfh@lemm.ee on 22 Jul 2024 13:29 collapse

You’re welcome!

Yeah I think the recent nonfree images should take care of the most pressing driver issues (last time I installed Debian, I had to separately download and put on a second USB stick the drivers for my WiFi card just to be able to proceed with the installer). I don’t know if you still need to manually install proprietary blobs for the CPU or the GPU post-install tho. If not, that would mean modern Debian is indeed very close to OOTB functionality.

superkret@feddit.org on 22 Jul 2024 19:17 collapse

Debian Sid is a great daily driver, just not for beginners.

rozodru@lemmy.ca on 22 Jul 2024 11:47 next collapse

I started with Mint for like a week then switched to CachyOS and I just installed Nobara on a separate partion to play around with. I’d say they’re both fairly beginner friendly. I mean I’m a brand new linux user and setting up CachyOS and customizing it to how I like it was a breeze. and with Arch, again as a noob, it’s pretty straight forward using AUR. Honestly all I knew at the beginning was git clone and then makepkg -si or pacman. With Octopi it was even more brainless.

I also tried Bazzite and I just didn’t like it at all. I like trying out distros on a live usb and Bazzite doesn’t povide that option (at least from what I could find) but once I got it setup I just didn’t like it. I prefer CachyOS, at least as far as gaming goes, over Bazzite.

If anything I found using Arch/CachyOS more user friendly than Mint. I had massive issues with Mint and Nvidia stuff but with Cachy it just worked and worked better.

Keep in mind like I said I’m a huge Linux noob, I’m only about a month into this but I really like Arch and the ease of finding things.

wfh@lemm.ee on 22 Jul 2024 12:24 collapse

Maintainer team size matters in the long run. CachyOS is maintained by 3 people, Nobara by one single person.

rozodru@lemmy.ca on 22 Jul 2024 14:26 collapse

well that’s fine I’m just stating with my personal experience I had more issues using Mint than I have using CachyOS. If Cinnamon broke on Mint due to customizing or what have you it REALLY broke to the point I needed to reinstall the OS. there were other issues with Mint (the Nvidia stuff being huge) that would break and would result in a reinstall. that’s the reason I made the move to another distro.

With CachyOS and Nobara they both feel more focused due to having small or single team members. Mint really felt like it was all over the place and broken. I’d say Mint is great for a brand new user for a couple weeks but you’ll quickly find it’s limitations, it’s not a distro I would stick with.

but this is just personal preference, I did like your write up and it has motivated me to switch to just using straight up Arch or Fedora.

HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com on 22 Jul 2024 12:15 next collapse

zorin is so easy for someone used to windows it amazes me it manages to not get mentioned so often.

Bombastic@sopuli.xyz on 22 Jul 2024 12:52 next collapse

How is a noob supposed to read and understand any of that?

Even my friends to which I have explained the general philosophy and utility of Linux (some of which are intrigued and somewhat open to switching) would look at me as if I were insane were I to send them this “guide”

woelkchen@lemmy.world on 22 Jul 2024 13:03 collapse

How is a noob supposed to read and understand any of that?

<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/5c609202-ea71-4e37-b6ef-dd4f1c3730a1.png">

wfh@lemm.ee on 22 Jul 2024 13:55 collapse

Fuck I wasted 30000 characters when I should’ve posted this instead :D

MonkeMischief@lemmy.today on 24 Jul 2024 08:09 collapse

Like FOSS philosophy:

Both can exist, and both are great, and that’s okay. :)

yetAnotherUser@lemmy.ca on 22 Jul 2024 13:11 next collapse

I liked your guide, but the vocabulary feels a bit too technical for people who have never used Linux before and aren’t tech savvy.

wfh@lemm.ee on 22 Jul 2024 13:19 collapse

Sorry, I’m not a native English speaker and I work in IT :D

I however believe that it’s more useful in the long run to use correct terminology (with a small explanation if necessary) rather than “dumbing it down”, as it makes finding pertinent information quicker/easier.

Yondoza@sh.itjust.works on 22 Jul 2024 22:34 collapse

I agree, we all have search engines and if someone doesn’t understand a word or phrase they can learn it on their own. Brilliant write up!

wfh@lemm.ee on 23 Jul 2024 05:32 collapse

Thanks !

lemmyvore@feddit.nl on 22 Jul 2024 13:24 next collapse

Wow, basically everything you wrote about Manjaro was wrong:

  • It doesn’t need constant maintenance, and it doesn’t break. The whole point of it is to be a stable variation of Arch.
  • It doesn’t have a highly irregular update schedule, it’s quite regular — every two weeks. There are also updates for outstanding security issues which can come faster (as needed). Occasionally very large updates can take longer in order to weed out all the issues, such as the recent example with Plasma 6 — those are announced in advance.
  • AUR doesn’t “expect” anything, it’s a dumping ground where anybody can put anything. I successfully run about 100 AUR packages on Manjaro without any issues, but nobody can guarantee anything when it comes to AUR. It’s officially unsupported on Arch and every Arch-based distro. If you want to call it dangerous that’s fine (if a bit hyperbolic) but don’t blame that on Manjaro, it just shows that you don’t understand how AUR works.
wfh@lemm.ee on 22 Jul 2024 13:53 collapse

FWIW I ran my gaming rig on Manjaro for a couple of years.

It doesn’t need constant maintenance, and it doesn’t break. The whole point of it is to be a stable variation of Arch.

It does need regular maintenance, as highlighted in every single stable update announcement. It doesn’t break if you follow these maintenance steps when relevant to your install. It is absolutely not stable (as in Debian Stable or RHEL or SLES stable) as things are moving quickly. It might be “stable” as in “crash-free”, but it is not “stable” stable. And as I said, after running it for 2 years, I’m not convinced it’s that crash-free either. I remember an era (I think 5.9-ish kernel series) that crashed all the time.

It doesn’t have a highly irregular update schedule, it’s quite regular — every two weeks

Okay, almost-semi-regular then.

AUR doesn’t “expect” anything, it’s a dumping ground where anybody can put anything.

True, AUR is not sentient. AUR creators, on the other hand, are overwhelmingly Arch users who builds their scripts targeting an up-to-date Arch system.

lemmyvore@feddit.nl on 22 Jul 2024 14:27 collapse

It does need regular maintenance, as highlighted in every single stable update announcement.

If you’re talking about “Known issues and workarounds” those aren’t caused by Manjaro, they’re issues that crop up with various packages. The forum attempts to crowdsource fixes as part of Manjaro’s mission to make it easier on its users.

It’s a great resource and it can be used by people on any Arch-related distro (and potentially other distros as well). I wish more distros would do this.

It is absolutely not stable (as in Debian Stable or RHEL or SLES stable) as things are moving quickly.

Well it’s still a rolling distro with Arch heritage. It’s as stable as you can make Arch. Which is quite stable in the sense that a Manjaro install won’t stop working out of the blue (I can attest to that personally, going on the 5th year as a daily driver). And they’ve gone and added Timeshift snapshots as default so if you mess something up you can simply restore a snapshot, which takes care of user-related tinkering as well.

Okay, almost-semi-regular then.

Not sure I understand your point about the updates (or the “almost-semi” thing). What does it matter if updates come after 13 or 17 days? Is it important to you to be exactly 14 or what?

AUR creators, on the other hand, are overwhelmingly Arch users who builds their scripts targeting an up-to-date Arch system.

10% of AUR packages are abandoned. Another 20% have never been updated after the initial release. Only 35% have been updated within the last year.

Anyway, it doesn’t matter. AUR “packages” are recipes that either compile packages from source or download binary releases. Both methods are very resilient and don’t care about delays of a couple of weeks.

While you can in theory run into an AUR package that was just updated to require something that was just added to Arch the chances are extremely small. It’s hardly a common problem.

nyan@sh.itjust.works on 22 Jul 2024 14:06 next collapse

Distro best added to the “Power-user distros to avoid” list: Gentoo (saying that as a Gentoo user).

I disagree with your claim that doing things like installation steps manually is necessarily a bad idea, though. It depends on your goal. Obviously it isn’t the fastest way to get things up and running, and as such it isn’t appropriate for newcomers (or for mass corporate deployments). If your goal is to learn about the lower levels of the system, or to produce something highly customized, then it becomes appropriate. Occasionally, it pays dividends in the form of being able to quickly fix a system that’s been broken by automation that didn’t quite work as expected. Anyway, I’d suggest rewording that bit of your Arch screed.

communism@lemmy.ml on 22 Jul 2024 18:48 collapse

Never understood why Arch got the reputation it has tbh, I’ve been using Arch-based distros since forever (and since being more or less a beginner in understanding how Linux and Unix-like systems work in general) and never found it hard since it was so well-documented and all the knowledge I needed was spoonfed to me by the wiki. Gentoo should have that reputation. Gentoo uses so many confusing concepts that no other distro seems to use lol

dubyakay@lemmy.ca on 24 Jul 2024 03:25 collapse

I don’t know man. As someone who’s been using PCs for decades with occasionally dabbling with stuff on Linux shells, I’ve tried to install Arch on my laptop a couple months ago and I kept running into one problem after another while trying to follow the Arch wiki installation guide. Maybe if the guide had a single set of instructions that would work majority of the times, instead of branching into options, and only cursory mention of critical stuff that should not be left out mentioned in footnotes, it’d be easier to install. After the second attempt that took a full evening I just gave up.

communism@lemmy.ml on 24 Jul 2024 11:57 collapse

I’m sorry to hear—that’s surprising to me tbh, the Arch and Arch-based distros ive installed have all worked out of the box for me, with the only issues being related to hardware not working well with Linux ie not distro-specific (I used to have Ubuntu on the same machine for instance which had the same issues with the nvidia gpu and 1st gen ryzen cpu). But if you’ve had trouble thats fair enough, use whatever works well for you

Amaterasu@lemmy.world on 22 Jul 2024 14:20 next collapse

Very good write up. If I not agree with all, I probably agree with most that is in here. On the DE section, I think we should help drive the beginner choice. In the recent past, KDE and Gnome were the early adopters of Wayland and the ones introducing the new features. They are also the choice of most distros. Therefore, I’d recommend one of those two.

I’d open a new section worth of scrutinies, dedicated about security. I believe it may worth advising that as a criteria of selection is recommended to not use distros that freezes regular releases for more than 1 year in desktop installations. Like is explained here. At least in your first distro selection. Advise about restricting privileged access with SELinux or AppArmor. Perhaps, also add a note about secure boot as well and some guide of how to harden your installation, Madaidans, Privacy Tweaks, PrivSec and PrivacyGuides.

foofiepie@lemmy.world on 22 Jul 2024 15:23 next collapse

This is an exceptional write up, thanks!

I started with Mint and it was very simple to set up. I don’t really like the DE though (personal preference, I’ve used OSX for over 10 years). From your description it sounds like I can change Cinnamon to something else - is this fairly straightforward to do?

I’m looking to use the machine as a photo processing platform (from film and digital) and finding alternatives to Adobe products like Lightroom and Photoshop… with a view to ultimately having a NAS and cloud backup once I get to it.

emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works on 22 Jul 2024 16:58 next collapse

Mint has three prebuilt options, Cinnamon is just the default. Beyond that you can also install other desktops.

bsergay@discuss.online on 22 Jul 2024 19:31 collapse

From your description it sounds like I can change Cinnamon to something else

You definitely can.

is this fairly straightforward to do?

It ain’t bad. However, I would opt for a distro that defaults to the preferred DE. In this case, similarly to Linux Mint, the distro would have to be beginner-friendly, popular, polished and stable^[2]^. So, IMO, that would be:

  • GNOME^[3]^; Pop!_OS or Zorin OS
  • KDE Plasma; Tuxedo OS
  • Xfce; MX Linux

Note that there are many other DEs. However, the above mentioned DEs (together with Cinnamon) are the most polished and popular. And while there are many other distros through which you might ‘consume’ said DEs, the distros mentioned above are the ones I (personally) like to recommend.


  1. At least relatively speaking.
  2. Stable is used here in the context of meant to be used without updating for 'extended’ time; except for security updates.
  3. While both default to GNOME, they differ pretty significantly in how they’re setup and the associated envisioned workflow.
ssm@lemmy.sdf.org on 22 Jul 2024 17:11 next collapse

As a BSD user, I’m downvoting for the implication Alpine and Devuan are less standardized and portable than Redshat distros; did IBM pay you well, OP?

wfh@lemm.ee on 22 Jul 2024 18:17 collapse

3.5 Lennarts.

ssm@lemmy.sdf.org on 22 Jul 2024 18:21 collapse

How much Microsoft stock is that worth?

Brickardo@feddit.nl on 22 Jul 2024 18:39 next collapse

Reading this feels like reading those famous math textbooks, which are for people who are already well-versed in the field yet kept being shoved into undergraduate courses.

wfh@lemm.ee on 22 Jul 2024 18:50 collapse

This is REAL Linux, done by REAL Linuxians.

“Hello I would like sudo pacman -Syyu apples please”

They have played us for absolute fools.

communism@lemmy.ml on 22 Jul 2024 18:58 next collapse

I don’t agree at all that Wine is for advanced users. If you install Wine you can use most Windows software out of the box like it’s Windows with modern Wine. I kept a Windows partition for quite a long time but nowadays I think Wine works well enough to not even need a Windows partition—Proton works well for gaming, and Wine works well for one Windows-only proprietary software I need to read some old files I have saved with a proprietary file format. (That’s also the only non-game I use Wine for—for the vast majority of Windows-only software, there’s a foss Linux alternative that works just fine, and it’s worth looking around for those alternatives when you make the switch.)

I also disagree that not using standards (such as systemd) is reserved for “very advanced users”. It depends on what exactly the standard you are moving away from is, but so long as you understand what it is you’re replacing, what you’re replacing it with, and how to use the replacement, you will be fine. Documentation is one big reason to avoid deviating from standards, but you may decide documentation is not as important as whatever your reason for wanting to use a different init system, or a different C library, or whatever. Tbh, personally, I use runit right now and find it a lot easier to use than systemd. It’s very simple—services are just executables and symlinks. I’d have to check documentation and look at examples to make a systemd service, but to make a runit service I just have to create a directory with an executable in it, and to enable it I just make a symlink. The benefit of systemd is how widely used it is so you’re more likely to find someone with the same problem as you, not because it’s inherently easier to use.

madasi@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 22 Jul 2024 21:24 collapse

If you

understand what it is you’re replacing, what you’re replacing it with, and how to use the replacement

then you, almost by definition, are an advanced user.

A beginner should avoid these things, once you are far enough along to understand why you might want to replace one of these things, and form your own opinion on it, then go right ahead. But you’re no longer a beginner at that point.

communism@lemmy.ml on 23 Jul 2024 00:32 collapse

then you, almost by definition, are an advanced user.

I don’t agree, but how people define “advanced”/“beginner” is mostly arbitrary I guess. I wouldn’t say that qualifies as advanced, maybe intermediate at best, but I think it’s entirely possible to understand eg the basic differences between init systems without ever touching Linux before in your life.

737@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 22 Jul 2024 18:58 next collapse

The package manager does matter, Void and Arch have good package managers, while Debian, Fedora, and OpenSUSE have bad package managers.

superkret@feddit.org on 22 Jul 2024 19:14 collapse

Lacking features doesn’t make a package manager good.
Arch just throws everything and the kitchen sink at you when you install a package. Debian lets you choose how minimal or bloated, stable or bleeding edge you want your system to be.

737@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 22 Jul 2024 23:23 next collapse

It’s way faster though.

superkret@feddit.org on 23 Jul 2024 04:34 collapse

You still spend way more time using it. 😜

737@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 23 Jul 2024 07:13 collapse

Not on Sid and OpenSUSE Tumbleweed.

737@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 23 Jul 2024 07:11 collapse

This is false.

You can’t really choose the release cycle on a per package basis practically:

wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian

Pacman also supports optional dependencies.

superkret@feddit.org on 22 Jul 2024 19:06 next collapse

Some distros are maintained by a single person or a very small group of people. These distros do not usually last very long.

Except the oldest distro that still exists is maintained by one person.

hopefull_cottonball@lemmy.ml on 22 Jul 2024 19:18 collapse

Slackware?

superkret@feddit.org on 22 Jul 2024 19:20 collapse

Yes.

737@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 22 Jul 2024 19:08 next collapse

Maybe mention tiling WMs too. Beginners may not directly be interested but it’s still a very important benefit of Linux.

RavenofDespair@lemmy.ml on 22 Jul 2024 19:34 next collapse

Big thanks for this.

corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca on 22 Jul 2024 20:02 next collapse

Anything that refuse to use standards for ideological reasons

See: “Best Practice”

original_reader@lemm.ee on 22 Jul 2024 20:43 next collapse

Thank you. Fantastic write-up. Saved for future use. :-)

I generally agree with these assessments. One point I would like to add some nuance to, though. This might not be the most popular take, but saying that Ubuntu should be avoided at all cost is a bit extreme. IMO.

If I may, here some counter-arguments to the criticisms of Ubuntu:

It is easy to use and accessible. It has a user-friendly interface and is installed with ease, making it an excellent choice for beginners. The large user base and extensive documentation also provide a wealth of resources for troubleshooting and learning.

Snap packages are convenient as they bundle all dependencies. Flatpaks do something similar, of course. But just because Canonical controls Snap and it is closed source doesn’t automatically make it evil.

The fact that Canonical has successfully commercialised Linux doesn’t always sit well with some people in the spirit of FOSS Linux, but they have also done a great deal to widen the distribution and appeal of Linux. Ubuntu has a large and active community that can be incredibly helpful to new users. The community support, forums and official documentation are most useful. I don’t currently use Ubuntu, but use their resources frequently. Their work also makes the work of distros like Mint, Elementary and Pop! OS easier.

Ultimately, the choice of Linux distribution depends on individual needs and preferences - even for beginners. Although I am not a Ubuntu fan, I wanted to provide a counterpoint with this post. Ubuntu certainly has its flaws, but are we really doing the world of Linux a favour by promoting complete avoidance and thus damaging Ubuntu?

Anyway, just my opinion. I know some of you will disagree with me, perhaps passionately and strongly. Some will agree. That is fine. My hope is that the Linux world remains as diverse as possible, with plenty of options for everyone, and enough resources for fast, high quality development.

wfh@lemm.ee on 22 Jul 2024 21:52 collapse

I think Ubuntu was relevant 15 years ago, when Linux was scary. Nowadays, it’s neither easier to install nor to use than, say, Fedora for example. I’d even say any current distro with a live CD and a graphical installer is easier to install than Ubuntu 15 years ago.

The fact that Canonical has successfully commercialised Linux doesn’t always sit well with some people in the spirit of FOSS Linux, but they have also done a great deal to widen the distribution and appeal of Linux.

I agree with the second part but not the first. Linux would be nowhere near what it is today without some serious corporate investments, so commercial Linux is a good thing (or a necessary evil depending on your POV). The largest kernel contributors are large IT and hardware companies, after all.

What’s bad about Ubuntu is that the “free” version is an inferior product, like a shareware of old. The biggest commercial competitors like SLES or RHEL are downstream from excellent community distros (OpenSuse and Fedora, respectively).

The community support, forums and official documentation are most useful. I don’t currently use Ubuntu, but use their resources frequently.

Fortunately that knowledge can be used downstream and often upstream too. After all, most Ubuntu issues are Debian Sid issues.

GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml on 22 Jul 2024 23:04 next collapse

Recommending Fedora and especially its atomic spins without much documentation to a new user? Expected but still bad. Downvoted.

bsergay@discuss.online on 23 Jul 2024 02:24 collapse

Recommending Fedora and especially its atomic spins without much documentation to a new user?

To be clear; while OP does mention “Fedora Silverblue” to introduce and contrast atomic distros to traditional ones, they only explicitly recommend uBlue images.

And while it’s by no means as exhaustive as the ArchWiki or Gentoo Wiki, uBlue’s documentation isn’t a slouch either; I’ve seen far worse. If possible, could you name what’s crucially missing?

GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml on 23 Jul 2024 07:25 collapse

If possible, could you name what’s crucially missing?

User-friendly articles and answers on forums to absolutely all more or less common issues like what Mint, Arch, Ubuntu and other extremely popular distros/bases have. It’s very important for a new user imo. We shouldn’t overwhelm them with choices and technical documentation. If you don’t believe me, check some content creators. They all agree that we should just give them a popular distro like Mint or Ubuntu and let them progress as fast as they can.

bsergay@discuss.online on 23 Jul 2024 10:43 collapse

Thank you for the reply!

Disclaimer: After a couple of revisions and rewrites, I concluded that directness and conciseness was required. If my tone seems confrontational at times, I would like you to know that that’s not my intent. Therefore, in such cases, I would like to friendly request you to assume the best. Thank you.

User-friendly articles

How is uBlue’s documentation not user-friendly? Be specific and come with an example.

forums

Naive in a post-Discord world.

User-friendly articles and answers on forums to absolutely all more or less common issues

Based on what do you imply that uBlue’s discourse and Discord has failed this? Again, be explicit and give an example.

It’s very important for a new user imo. We shouldn’t overwhelm them with choices and technical documentation.

Assumes new users to be sufficiently homogeneous in this regard. The silent majority is not accounted for.

choices

What choices?

If you don’t believe me

I believe there’s definitely some truth in your earlier made statements.

check some content creators. They all agree that we should just give them a popular distro like Mint or Ubuntu and let them progress as fast as they can.

Even if that’s true, I think it’s hilarious to appeal to their consensus 😂.

GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml on 23 Jul 2024 17:22 collapse

Even if that’s true, I think it’s hilarious to appeal to their consensus 😂.

Imo this shows your aggressive inability to accept opinions different to yours, even if they are obviously more true. At this point I’m asking you to stop stalking me and making fun of me or I will be forced to report you and/or contact law enforcements.

bsergay@discuss.online on 23 Jul 2024 19:52 collapse

Your reply is much appreciated! Even though I am saddened by the content. And apologies for the upcoming long reply. I thank you in advance for reading through it all.

Imo

Thank you for weakening it with “Imo”! To clarify; it seemed as if the “authority” in “appeal to authority” was conflated with content creators. If this wasn’t an appeal to authority in the first place, then please feel free to dismiss my earlier stated sentence.

Normally, I would have asked for clarification in order to prevent possible miscommunication. Unfortunately, after our first serious attempt at reconciling our differences failed miserably, I have instead chosen for a more direct approach in hopes of making it more accessible. It’s also more prone to being misunderstood as confrontational, aggressive et cetera. But, if even my super sweet approach in the earlier mentioned conversation failed, I don’t see why I should make it less accessible for all involved parties if it doesn’t benefit either of us.

this shows your aggressive inability to accept opinions different to yours

I may as well accuse you of doing the same. But…, I don’t. But somehow I’m perceived as the villain. I simply fail to understand.

On Lemmy, I engage for one reason, and for one reason only; to arrive at a mutual understanding. This manifests itself in multiple ways:

  • I’m interested in the communities output on a certain query and engage with them through a post I create.
  • I’m introduced to a new concept through a post/comment -> Search engines don’t yield anything useful -> I ask a question in hopes of learning something new -> And hopefully that engagement yields new information for me; I’m primarily on the receiving end of 'profit’
  • Someone poses something that I don’t agree with or don’t understand -> I engage in hopes of my understanding being proven wrong; as that results in the most new information; hence most profit -> Most often, it’s somewhere in between; I might get a new perspective on something, but not too crazy. At times, though, the person I was engaging with had some notions that were not entirely backed up; hence, we both end up learning a thing or two
  • Misinformation or fake news or misunderstanding or whatever known false fact is shared -> I engage in hopes of combating false notions. No profit; but you gotta do what you gotta do
  • Question is asked, I happen to know an answer that might be helpful -> I contribute. No profit; but contributions are required to foster a nice community

To be clear; I love to accept valid criticism. Especially, if they provide me with new insights and polish my own ideas/notions. Heck, I’ve even been complimented on how I engage with them in one of our first interactions. And, if you’ve noticed, this very conversation below our current post is not very different. I just ask you to back up your claims so that I may learn from them. I want to accept them; new knowledge/insights/profit et cetera. But I can’t simply accept your claims on the basis of nothing. That doesn’t make any sense. That’s not how epistemology works.

even if they are obviously more true.

If they’re “obviously more true”, then it should have been obviously easy to prove their truth. But, I’ve yet to receive a proof, even after I’ve explicitly asked you. Or, conversely, proof my falsehood. That’s basically the problem at hand: you’re less sensitive to back up your claims; even when pressed to do so. Instead, you choose to do whatever you did (or tried) in your most recent reply.

Or, I don’t know, ask me how I’m so sure of my own convictions/judgements/ideas. But, and that’s very curious; I don’t recall you ever asking me a question. Isn’t that the most obvious indication that I’m actively trying to engage with your ideas and your output? While you seem to be completely devoid of that. And, somehow, I’ve become the one that’s regarded as possessing “aggressive inability to accept opinions different to yours, even if they are obviously more true.”. Sorry, I simply can’t take this serious 😅.

At this point I’m asking you to stop stalking me and making fun of me

Fam, you got some hate-boner towards Fedora, ‘immutable’ distros and especially their intersection; Fedora Atomic. Either educate yourself on them and act accordingly, or simply stop spreading misinformation. Either way, you’ll never hear from me again. Related point; simply don’t spread misinformation. Period.

wuphysics87@lemmy.ml on 23 Jul 2024 00:04 next collapse

There are two reasons switching to, or even trying out Linux is difficult and often ends in failure: too many choices or too much information. This (great) write up is an example of the latter. Those among us, the would be tutors of Linux, actually read the whole thing before hopping down to the comments, or offer our opinion. Be honest.

We are all passionate about FOSS. Not just because it’s neato, but because we recognize that it improves the quality of life of anyone who uses it, and (hopefully) society at large.

Rather than providing many choices with a sink or swim mentality, or write a novel Herman Melville would envy, my suggestion is to become mentors rather tutors. What’s the difference?

MonkeMischief@lemmy.today on 24 Jul 2024 07:59 collapse

Haha I dunno I thought it was a pretty good primer for people seeking it out, and people in this community are super helpful and mentor-like in my experience.

I wouldn’t even call myself a beginner anymore, but I read the whole thing. :)

wuphysics87@lemmy.ml on 24 Jul 2024 14:11 collapse

Oh yea folks on lemmy are super helpful. And some of them are mentors. To me there are two qualities of a good mentor: time and patience. They will take a student and work with them for however long it takes. They know the student won’t get it immediately, so they wait. They recast the question. They will provide personalized examples. They spend enough time with a single student for that student to mature as much as they can while the two are together. Think Mr. Miyagi from the karate kid.

Just as with the other two, there are drawbacks. Mentorship takes time. I’m from the standpoint that if we spend that time, and I mentor 2 people, and you mentor two people, and they mentor two people, we reach critical mass and we start reaching the normies who want, but don’t have another way. I’m not as wise as Mr. Miyagi and I’m quite snarky with my opinions 🙃

possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip on 23 Jul 2024 13:12 next collapse

I feel like Manjaro is so much worse than Ubuntu. I don’t like Ubuntu but you seem to be at the level of hate. Ubuntu has a nice layout and everything works out of the box. The problem is snap but that can be explained.

wfh@lemm.ee on 23 Jul 2024 13:39 next collapse

“Hate” is a strong word. I don’t hate Ubuntu. It’s just irrelevant.

It’s not alone anymore in the realm of “easy to install and use”, and ongoing enshittification nagging you to upgrade to Pro™️ makes it an objectively worse product than its direct competitors.

MonkeMischief@lemmy.today on 24 Jul 2024 07:57 collapse

Exactly. Both Manjaro and Ubuntu have had a certain history of “silly misguided shenanigans” that sorta damage trust. You just never know when the next stunt might be pulled.

I personally didn’t have too many problems with Manjaro on my gaming laptop, but have since moved to EndeavourOS, which I’m enjoying very much. :D

N0x0n@lemmy.ml on 24 Jul 2024 10:49 collapse

Same here :) switch from a 2 day Manjaro testing into EndeavourOS without the hassel of native Arch install.

Manjaro looks like a really good distro from the outside, but heard a few strange things about that specific distro I didn’t like at all. Also they messed with the boot up logo, add their personal bookmarks in new firefox install…

Had a really strange feeling about that non-authorized intrusive installation. I’m no expert so I won’t rant over Manjaro, but my moto says to always follow your guts !

Cube6392@beehaw.org on 23 Jul 2024 14:16 collapse

The problem is other distros exist that do everything Ubuntu does right without all the things Ubuntu does wrong

jpablo68@infosec.pub on 23 Jul 2024 20:00 next collapse

I want to translate this into spanish (and probably esperanto) little by little if that’s ok

dubyakay@lemmy.ca on 24 Jul 2024 03:06 next collapse

Thanks to this guide I’ve stopped banging my head against the wall trying to install Arch on a laptop and just ended up putting Mint on it. Nearly everything works out of the box, and Cinnamon seems to be close enough to what a Windows user would expect, and then some, seeing how customizable it is.

I’ll bang my head against the wall again once I’ve familiarized myself with it.

Thanks again OP!

bsergay@discuss.online on 24 Jul 2024 07:10 collapse

Thank you for sharing your experiences!

May I ask you what made you pursue an Arch installation in the first place?

dubyakay@lemmy.ca on 24 Jul 2024 15:33 collapse

The memes…

bsergay@discuss.online on 24 Jul 2024 15:35 collapse

😂. Thanks for the clarification!

fine_sandy_bottom@discuss.tchncs.de on 24 Jul 2024 08:30 collapse

My opinion doesn’t mean much since it’s been forever since I tried any other distro but I’m surprised Debian isn’t on the beginners list.

it might be a bit too involved for an absolute beginner to configure to perfection

I’m not really sure what this means? It might be more accurate to say it’s not the best distro if you’d like to tinker with your desktop experience.

Notably, nothing on the beginners list ought to be run as a headless server, but debian is perfect for that job. The reason I’ve become so enamoured with debian over the years is that I can use it on my desktop and on servers and it’s the same system - everything is exactly where I’m used to it being.