I would get it if he would have simply stated that the Linux Foundation needs to abide by the sanctions, pretty much what GKH had said. But for Linus to go ahead with his stupid russophobic rant about Russian bot farms (LOL) is really too much.
They aren’t committing war crimes at all. You may be referring to something Ukraine made up. For example their own air defense hit civilian apartments and they blamed it on Russia. There are also many many many videos and photos on telegram of Ukranian soldiers hiding in kindergartens and hospitals. They also park military vehicles near apartment blocks to the dismay of the people inside. There’s photo and video evidence of this.
Really it’s the reverse – Ukraine is committing war crimes. Shelling civilians is a war crime. Murdering people you think that are sympathetic to the Russian gov is a war crime.
Ukraine’s?? They (the gov, which we installed and control) deserve it.
No evidence for this at all. In fact, if you go back to the original Russiagate claim it was debunked by the CEO of Crowdstrike.
Hahaha I saw the parent commentor of that chain notorious for getting into back and forth arguments, sometimes reasonable sometimes not, and I thought to myself, this is going to be fun. Then I recognized the username of that other .ml user as a known troll and I was like, yep now this is going to go way off the rails.
Jesus_666@lemmy.world
on 23 Oct 23:39
nextcollapse
Hoo boy, you weren’t kidding. I find it amazing how quickly this went from “the kernel team is enforcing sanctions” to an an unfriendly abstract debate about the definition of liberalism. I shouldn’t, really, but I still am.
LupertEverett@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 10:28
collapse
The absolute disregard of having any moderation is what does that. If there was any, there wouldn’t be the cases like having someone be there by their third account, after the first two got banned.
Not to mention that controversy = angry people and trolls = more clicks = more ad revenue. I don’t think Michael wants to miss out on it.
The security issue is very likely scenario. If you're in Russia, you can go to jail at any moment on totally bogus charges. It is very easy for FSB to pressure some random kernel maintainer into adding hard to detect backdoor into their code, it will be XZ situation all over again.
This actually makes common sense.
Aatube@kbin.melroy.org
on 23 Oct 22:28
nextcollapse
Freeze peach doesn't mean you can call people "fag"s. By using that word you're 1. insulting those who express their gender as they wish 2. calling us names
Also, my point is that there is precedent for laws to geopolitcally restrict open source. I agree that there is a real security issue.
Freeze peach doesn't mean you can call people "fag"s. By using that word you're 1. insulting those who express their gender as they wish 2. calling us names
wtf does this mean? i did not call anyone anything. what word?
Maybe try explaining what you meant instead of complaining that everyone is misunderstanding you. I dont see any context clues in there to indicate you mean anything other than the standard accepted meaning of “soyboy”
TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
on 23 Oct 21:47
nextcollapse
Liberals love collective punishment and have been in a Russophobic bender for decades, with an uptick in recent years. They hate all Russians and repeat racist rhetoric from Ukrainian Nazis.
It seems pretty clear that the negative implication is putin’s regime abusing his authority for sexual favors (especially given all the mass rapes by russian forces in ukraine…) and not that said favors are bad because theyre gay. It’s telling that they assumed it was based in homophobia, though.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 23 Oct 22:17
collapse
I’m well aware that liberal is an international term.
However, it is used very differently in the US to everywhere else. In the US, liberal is used to pretty much mean “left wing” or “relating to the Democrat party”.
People in the US wouldn’t describe an expansion in gun rights as something the libs would want, for example.
Nor would people in the US agree that liberal people want more freedoms for businesses.
But those are parts of liberal ideology elsewhere.
And I said fuck off with your Ukraine Nazi bullshit. Stop parroting Russian propaganda, gimboid.
? When I said anything about facism? About any country? When I defend anybody? When I said any Russian propaganda? You just put words in my mouth because I’m from lemmy.ml. Get a life.
I’m well aware that liberalism is an international term.
Yet you assumed I made a US-specific reference when I did in no way do so.
However, it is used very differently in the US to everywhere else. In the US, liberal is used to pretty much mean “left wing” or “relating to the Democrat party”.
Yes I know. I was not using it in that sense.
And I said fuck off with your Ukraine Nazi bullshit. Stop parroting Russian propaganda, gimboid.
It is not bullshit. There are and have been Ukrainian Mazis and liberals falling over themselves to repeat their racist and chauvinist talking points.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 23 Oct 22:34
collapse
You absolutely were using it in that sense.
There is literally nowhere on planet earth where humans live in any large number where you will not find Nazis.
Claiming that Ukraine is rife with it in any meaningful sense is very much a Russian talking point, and even one of the defenses given by Russia in starting their war/genocide.
Stop repeating Russian propaganda.
Honestly, what is it with lemmy.ml and people who love Russia?
I was not. Please do your best to participate in good faith and not make things up, let alone make them up and then repeatedly assert them based on nothing.
There is literally nowhere on planet earth where humans live in any large number where you will not find Nazis.
That is true, but also does not contradict anything I have said, nor does it excuse those who repeat their racist and chauvinist talking points.
Claiming that Ukraine is rife with it in any meaningful sense
I haven’t said anything like this. That is your insertion.
Stop repeating Russian propaganda.
Please stop lying about what I have said.
Honestly, what is it with lemmy.ml and people who love Russia?
It’s not me, it is you doing a poor job at wrestling with your cognitive dissonance. My mere mention of Russophobia from liberals, borrowed from Ukrainian Nazis, resulted in you inventing entire lines of thought and arguments that were not there rather than directly engaging with the facts if the matter. This is defensive behavior intended to avoid what I said and return to an arena where you feel more comfortable.
Not ironically, that arena is one where you feel comfortable being against Russia, lmao.
Yawn. Stop repeating the propaganda of a murderous dictatorship that has invaded their neighbour and is committing a genocide and mass rape as we speak.
Russia is more of an oligarchy, like a huge number of countries that are not the current Object of Hate. Russia is not committing a genocide, that is absurd. It is a conventional modern war, which is horrific enough on its own. The US and Israel are committing genocide, however. The US is doing two at once, actually. Re: mass rape, there is little to no evidence of anything systemic, which I believe is what this would have to mean. But again, war is horrific, and rape is a common wrapon of war. No armies of Western states are innocent of this.
Anyways I am getting tripped up in your internalized propaganda. What propaganda am I repeating, exactly, and how is it false?
The Nazis are the ones trying to do their own little Anschluss.
The Nazis are the people with Black Sun tats normalizing racial slurs and shelling civilian areas.
Russia is run by its major capitalists. They just have a team captain for the political sphere.
Russia absolutely is committing genocide, as per the UN’s definition.
It is not, per the UN’s definition. Feel free to explain your rationale.
There absolutely is evidence of large-scale rape. An alarming amount of it directed at children too.
Show yiur evidence of systemic mass rape. I have never seen anything but racist rumors from propagandists.
But I guess that probably gives you warm fuzzy feelings.
Please do your best to engage in good faith and not lie about me.
Again with the whataboutism
I think you have found your “get-out-of-thinkkng-free” card. You seem positively delighted at the prospect of not having to actually contend with the realities presented.
So Russia.
Nopez that was Kyiv for a decade via its committed fascistic shock troops. Do you know where Right Sector went after Euromaidan?
Presumably you also hate most Americans and Israelis, then.
Personally, I only hate those who take an active role in a major injustice and am merely frustrated with those who are passive, and I do so consistently across nationalities.
I think Palestinians have a right to be angry at Israelis, even to the point of potential violence.
And yet, by and large, Palestinians, facing genocide, focus their fights on soldiers and military equipment while showing empathy towards those Israelis who aren’t actively expressing racism towards them.
But yes Palestinians do have every right to resist occupation and genocide through violence.
But this was not my question. It is whether you consiste tky believe in and apply the rhetoric you are using or whether you are, note likely, swept up in the current hate-on towards all Russians.
Much in the same way I think Russians have long passed a historical threshold for which we should consider whether they are compatible with civilized society.
This reads as very racist and draws on orientalist tropes. I assume you picked them up from the upsurge in fascistic rhetoric, including from Ukrainian Nazis whose rhetoric has been amplified and anonymized/filtered through mainstream repetitiom, and have not discovered this talking point de novo.
We gave them a shot after the USSR fell, they didn’t take the opportunity to clean up their act.
tf are you talking about. The fall of the USSR came with a mass expropriation if wealth and industry and social programs at the expense of tens of millions of lives. Attempts to join the imperial core were rebuffed, it was placed in permanent shock therapy territory and systematically excluded. They did exactly what Western interests wanted them to do. This is the Russia your ideology created.
So now we’re going back to it, confrontation.
There was never a pause in imperialist escalation.
Only this time we’re not 2-3x stronger than them, we’re 10-20x. I like those odds.
I see that rather than ask yourself whether you consistently apply your logic, you are here just revealing that you are a nationalist that truly does not care and is now excited for a world war.
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 00:56
collapse
I’m excited for Russia seeing justice.
And a world War?
With Russia and whose army? Because theirs can’t handle Ukraine on their own. Their missiles explode on the launchpad, their submarines sink themselves, their only aircraft carrier has more Russian kills than enemy.
Oh, you honestly think China will save them? That’s absolutely adorable.
That shock therapy? That was their own oligarchs looting Russia wildly, which is why corruption has destroyed the Russian military so completely.
Russia has historically felt their only safety came from the perception by others that they were strong. That perception was utterly shattered by Ukraine, forever.
There is no way this turns out that is not disastrous for Russia, but then again I guess they just call that ‘history’. Personally I’m looking forward to it with anticipation.
Not thirsty for blood, thirsty for justice, as are much of Europe that were victims of Russian imperialism under the name of ‘buffer states’. Now those states are stronger than them and everyone is desperately eager to watch them suffer.
I could make a fortune selling popcorn in eastern Europe.
Just Russia? Or all countries with the same violations that outrage you? What about those with even worse? Are you excited for justice in all cases?
And a world War?
Yes.
With Russia and whose army?
A world war would involve multiple countries on both sides, dragged in by mutual ties and a recognition of which camp would have it in for them in victory. Starting am open war with Russia would drag in all nations that have sought independence and needed to build up a military to prevent being overcome by the domjnant superpower. Eventually it would drag in every major state. It is hard to say how all of the chios would fall, but the conditions under which Russia were openly targeted for destruction would immediately create alarm in China, Iran, and most of Africa. That bloc has an order of magnitude more productive capacity and manpower than the “good guys” you would have in mind.
Because theirs can’t handle Ukraine on their own.
Russia could destroy and overtake UA at basically any time but is instead choosing this status quo as achieving a strategic objective, namely bleeding UA of manpower and weapons stocks. Russia has notably not used the scorched earth approach that NATO and NATO ally countries have consistently taken during their invasions, one where mass civilian destruction and terror are the main components of victory and control, where their forces fall apart the minute theyvlack air superiority. UA does not have sufficient air defenses to prevent such attacks, Russia simply chooses not to make them.
If things turn south, I have no doubt Russia would adopt the more NATO-ie “make the civilian population scream for mercy and then push them even harder” approach.
Their missiles explode on the launchpad, their submarines sink themselves, their only aircraft carrier has more Russian kills than enemy.
You might as well just write, “I am easily misled by propaganda”. Since the beginning of the war, the false prospect that Ukraine could win has been essential for manufacturing consent for every ask made by Kyiv and the US government, up to and including mass deindustrialization of regions of Europe and making the EU dollar dependent again. Just follow the sources of what you read and ask what they choose to report on vs not and who pays them. It will be revealing.
Oh, you honestly think China will save them? That’s absolutely adorable.
Save them from what? If China is in a world war you can kiss any semblance of normalcy in your life goodbye. You should fear these prospects, not LARP about how much you will win. These are all nuclear powers with greater industrial capacity.
That shock therapy? That was their own oligarchs looting Russia wildly, which is why corruption has destroyed the Russian military so completely.
Feel free to familiarize yourself with what shock therapy refers to in this context. No lectures from you about this if you don’t know something so basic. But, in short: the oligarchs were created by this shock therapy, of mass privatization, and it was done by US policy in the region. Modern Russia is a direct consequence of US shock therapy treatment.
Russia has historically felt their only safety came from the perception by others that they were strong. That perception was utterly shattered by Ukraine, forever.
Silly little fairy tales.
There is no way this turns out that is not disastrous for Russia, but then again I guess they just call that ‘history’. Personally I’m looking forward to it with anticipation.
What about a disaster in Russia makes you excited?
Not thirsty for blood, thirsty for justice, as are much of Europe that were victims of Russian imperialism under the name of ‘buffer states’.
Justice is not abstract, it has a grounding in ending injustice, creating accountability, and making whole. Given that you seem, unprompted, pretty stoked for war, I don’t accept your claim to not have thirst for blood.
Re: Europe being victims of imperialism, what on earth are you talking about? I assume you are referring to the Warsaw Pact but I can only guess at what comic book-esque brainworms are at work.
Now those states are stronger than them and everyone is desperately eager to watch them suffer.
So you wish suffering on the Russian people? Sounds pretty Russophobic.
I could make a fortune selling popcorn in eastern Europe.
Russian hatred? We call that ‘being European’.
Ah, sounds like you
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 05:35
collapse
A world war would involve multiple countries on both sides, dragged in by mutual ties and a recognition of which camp would have it in for them in victory.
This is hilarious. That anyone would stand up for Russia, one of the most hated states on the planet.
China especially, they would watch and wait till Russia was about to fail, and take their eastern territories, giving them both the land and resources they are so desperate for.
Russia is a country without meaningful allies (oh, I’m sorry, I forgot north Korea), in a world that hates them and wants to see them suffer for their past actions.
Poland alone would do anything for the chance to revisit Russia with a fraction of the pain they’ve caused over the centuries, and nobody would dare stop them.
This is inevitable, the Russian decline guarantees their predation and destruction at the hands of their growing neighbors.
Like I said, popcorn futures.
TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
on 24 Oct 05:55
nextcollapse
This is hilarious. That anyone would stand up for Russia, one of the most hated states on the planet.
What no material grounding does to a person. There is a reason Russia is increasingly popular in the Sahel. Do you think it might also have something to do with Europe and material interest?
Though maybe I shouldn’t elaborate. It is probably good for the rest of the world if chauvinist Europeans falsely believe they represent it.
China especially, they would watch and wait till Russia was about to fail, and take their eastern territories, giving them both the land and resources they are so desperate for.
What, the trees and steppes? China’s material interests in Russia are in fossil fuels and their derivatives, industrial capacity for key industries (though China is overtaking), and as a market to sell things to.
Russia is a country without meaningful allies (oh, I’m sorry, I forgot north Korea), in a world that hates them and wants to see them suffer for their past actions.
Just repeating “European chauvinists represent the world” over and over again Lmao. At the moment European states are certainly acting against Russia, making yourself into weakened American dependencies and shooting the prospect of an independent Eurooe in the head to do it. But that is more manufactured consent than any real popular push. This is why Europe is taking a rightward turn against the liberal order that seeks to isolate Russia: y’all are paying a hefty price to do the US’ bidding.
Poland alone would do anything for the chance to revisit Russia with a fraction of the pain they’ve caused over the centuries, and nobody would dare stop them.
This is, more or less, historical illiteracy.
This is inevitable, the Russian decline guarantees their predation and destruction at the hands of their growing neighbors.
Growing neighbors like what? Belarus? Azerbaijan? Kazakhstan? If you mean China you can just say China.
Though again you have the material developments flipped. Europe is selling itself to Americans, not getting one over on Russia. Europe still buys Russian fossil fuels they just do so at a significant mark-up via middle men.
Like I said, popcorn futures.
Like I said, ethnic supremacist. And with that said, I won’t be giving you more attention.
Russia is a country without meaningful allies (oh, I’m sorry, I forgot north Korea), in a world that hates them and wants to see them suffer for their past actions.
It’s like you’ve never even heard of BRICS+, which is having its annual conference in Russia right now.
You have no idea what is going on in the world. Russia has rather a lot of allies in fact, it’s just that none of them are imperial core countries.
You may not have noticed that most of the world is ignoring the international rules-based order’s sanctions. And not only almost all of the Global South, which represents ~85% of the world’s people and the bulk of the world’s production* and natural resources. Even many Global North countries are skirting their own sanctions to trade with Russia.
The Global North is largely sanctioning itself, and Europe is paying a very high price for it. In particular high energy prices, which is eroding their industrial base even more.
You’re running on pure, undiluted Western propaganda.
*Since the Global North in its infinite wisdom de-industrialized itself.
AbidanYre@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 01:10
nextcollapse
Hmm yes, we all remember when noted liberal Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest geopolitical threat facing the US.
The security issue is very likely scenario. If you’re in Russia, you can go to jail at any moment on totally bogus charges. It is very easy for FSB to pressure some random kernel maintainer into adding hard to detect backdoor into their code, it will be XZ situation all over again.
Yes this is the obvious cognitive dissonance that arises from my question. The US has invaded and bombed countries, couped countries, plunged millions into poverty and death, consistently for decades. Buy I don’t see any if you saying, “Fuck America” and trying to kick all Americans out of your spaces.
The US is backing Israel’s genocide to the hilt righy now. It would not happen without American support that Israel depends on. And most European countries are backseat supporters if that agenda. Where is your bleating for villification of every person from all those countries?
Decent part of america was not larping the war either.
Which war? There have been so many US-bscked wars in recent years that I have no idea which one you would be referring to.
But I am confused about the qualifier. Who had said anything about larping? This is collective punishment and chauvinism against all Russians.
It is shameful what we did in middle east for israels benefit.
Can I get a “Fuck America”?
Hopefully never again but who are we kidding…
Not just never again, it is happening right now, under Dems, with support of their candidates that is part of the admin doing genocide. Every pro-Harris post on this site is a tacit endorsement. Should we ban them?
sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
on 23 Oct 22:21
nextcollapse
Buy I don't see any if you saying, "Fuck America" and trying to kick all Americans out of your spaces.
Fediserve is US centric platform, nobody going to be saying fuck America.
However, the sentiment here is pretty strong against the current situation both socio-economics wise and support for Israel... I don' think this a mainstream opinion quite there yet but people getting wiser on these issues.
I meant decent part of US population did not larp ME wars in early 2000s.
Fediserve is US centric platform, nobody going to be saying fuck America.
You should be if you respect your own thoughts that you are sharing.
Really, you are tacitly aknowledging what this really is: national chauvinism and Russophobia. Liberals taking their opportunity to be racist and xenophobic without being singled out as problematic.
However, the sentiment here is pretty strong against the current situation both socio-economics wise and support for Israel…
It is below the bare minimum, it is just slightly less jingoistic than in spaces curated by monopolies and staffed with literal feds. Pro-genocide discourse is strong here, it just hides behind electoralism discourse and feigned reluctance.
I don’ think this a mainstream opinion quite there yet but people getting wiser on these issues.
It won’t be a mainstream opinion in US-centric spaces without political education of such people.
I meant decent part of US population did not larp ME wars in early 2000s.
It was a very small part of it, really. Liberals rewrote their histories about their support for wars of aggression against Iraq and Afghanistan. They pretend to have been against it when they were actually part of their version of the “silent majority” and rampant islamophobia. The protests rapidly ran out of steam as Americans don’t even know how to fight against their state.
Of course it is not. By definition. Russia is conducting a conventional war and with far less indiscriminate bombing than typical Western “interventions”. But it would be amazing to see your logic and then try to apply it consistently.
And invasion.
Like that of Gaza? Lebanon? Syria? Iraq? Afghanistan? Haiti? Are you consistent in your hate?
And mass rape.
There is no evidence of systemic mass rape by Russia in Ukraine.
And a huge litany of human rights abuses.
Well yes that is definitely true. But again, are you consistent in your hate? Because if the object is human rights abuses Russia is nowhere near the top.
I don’t care for your whataboutism (a common soviet tactic, interesting).
Inconsistency in pursuit of chauvinism is so common that one must regularly try to reorient the confused and biased framings. If you have this much vitriol for Russia and thr people in it despite other countries doing more and worse why do you not hate those countries and everyone in them just as much? It more?
It reveals that, despite the pretenses and rhetoric, none of that really matters to you. It is just an excuse for getting to be chauvinist.
Of course you are. This thread is about people getting kicked off the maintainer list for simply being Russian and y’all are bleating “good, fuck Russia”.
just_another_person@lemmy.world
on 23 Oct 22:13
collapse
Yes. I am saying that the Russian people who were maintaining anything in the Linux kernel commits have a very real threat of not only being compromised to do ill, but also have their identity on the commit chain being taken over by state actors.
He is being pretty vague there. It could be any number of things in the orbit of anti-russia pressuring. That could include the feds pressuring legally, but it could also be many other less direct things or even a personal political decision.
Phobia, by definition, is uncontrollable, irrational, and lasting fear for something. In the current geopolitics situation I’d say that it’s not uncontrollable and very much not irrational. Fear, as a fellow Finn, might be a bit strong word, but it’s a definetly a concern.
When I first read that I thought that the response is a bit harsh, as Russian (and Soviet Union) individuals have traditionally been a big part of open source community and their achievements on computing are pretty significant, but when you dig a bit deeper on that, a majority of Soviet era things are actually built by Ukrainians in Kyiv (obviously Ukraine as a country wasn’t a thing back then).
Also, based on my very limited sight on the matter, Russians are not banned from contributing, but this is more of an statement that anyone working for the government in Russia can’t be a part of kernel development team. There’s of course legal reasons for that, very much including the trade bans against Russia, but also the moral part of it, which Linus seems to take a stand on.
Personally I’ve seen individuals at Russia to do quite amazing feats with both hardware and software, but as none of us are in a void without any external infcluence nor affect, I think that, while harsh, the “sanctions” (for a lack of better word) aren’t overshooting anything, but they’re instead leveling the playing field. Any Joe Anynymous could write a code which compromises the kernel as a whole, but should that Joe live in Russia, it might bring a government backed team which can hide their tracks on a quite a bit different level with their resources than any individual could ever even dream about.
So, while that decision might slow down some implementations and it might include some of the most capable of developers, the fear that one of them might corrupt the whole project isn’t unreasonable and, with ongoing sanctions in place (and legal requirements that follow) the core dev team might not even have a choice on this.
In current global environment we’re living in, I’d rather have a bit too careful management than one which doesn’t take things seriously enough. We already have Canonical and others to break stuff way too often, we don’t need malicious government to expand on that with nefarious purposes which could compromise a shit on of stuff on a very fundamental level if left unattended.
TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
on 23 Oct 22:32
nextcollapse
Phobia, by definition, is uncontrollable, irrational, and lasting fear for something. In the current geopolitics situation I’d say that it’s not uncontrollable and very much not irrational.
Russophobia is the fear or hatred of Russia or people from Russia. Etymology is not semantics, as anyone should already know.
When I first read that I thought that the response is a bit harsh, as Russian (and Soviet Union) individuals have traditionally been a big part of open source community and their achievements on computing are pretty significant, but when you dig a bit deeper on that, a majority of Soviet era things are actually built by Ukrainians in Kyiv (obviously Ukraine as a country wasn’t a thing back then).
This is simply false. Soviet contributions spanned a large array of ethnicitied and nationalities and Ukraine was a minority in their regard, as were all ethnicities and nationalities.
Though I don’t see why your point would matter. Is Russophobia only bad if Russians have made enough contributions to your field of interest?
Also, based on my very limited sight on the matter, Russians are not banned from contributing, but this is more of an statement that anyone working for the government in Russia can’t be a part of kernel development team.
To my knowledge, nothing at all has been said about working for the Russian government or: this issue. It I’d a blanket exclusion of all Russians from the maintainer list.
Personally I’ve seen individuals at Russia to do quite amazing feats with both hardware and software, but as none of us are in a void without any external infcluence nor affect, I think that, while harsh, the “sanctions” (for a lack of better word) aren’t overshooting anything, but they’re instead leveling the playing field.
Presumably you support much harsher sanctions against all Americans, Brits, Germans, French, and Israelis, then. Are you any of these things? Perhaps you should start advocating for sanctions on yourself.
Any Joe Anynymous could write a code which compromises the kernel as a whole, but should that Joe live in Russia, it might bring a government backed team which can hide their tracks on a quite a bit different level with their resources than any individual could ever even dream about.
That is in no way unique to Russia and we already have plenty of examples of US, Israeli, and other Western countries compromising systems and software. Do just a little bit of critical thinking.
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 23 Oct 23:14
collapse
Russophobia is the fear or hatred of Russia or people from Russia.
Ok, seems logical so far.
Linus is Finnish, maybe this is also a lesson: “Don’t brutalize random neighboring countries because in the future they might be in a position to fuck you in the ass.”?
I mean, the Winter War is kind of not a fond memory for them, though everybody loves some Sima Häyhä, one of the most righteous men of the 20th century.
Linus is Finnish, maybe this is also a lesson: “Don’t brutalize random neighboring countries because in the future they might be in a position to fuck you in the ass.”?
I will dispute your framing, but why does it justify collective punishment and hatred if all people from a country?
I mean, the Winter War is kind of not a fond memory for them, though everybody loves some Sima Häyhä, one of the most righteous men of the 20th century.
At the time of the Winter War, Finland had existed for about 20 years, same as the USSR. Both emerged out of the Russian Empire. The USSR sought land and space for military defense against its Northern flank near St Petersburg, which was vulnerable, as well as, ideally, ports to seal from water invasions. Finland rejected every attempt at land exchanges, which was of course their right, but the USSR also, correctly, predicted that Finland would facilitate the Nazi advance and that this land was necessary to repel their war. Faced with an existential threat, they invaded Finland and took much of the land they needed and the war unfolded there exactly as predicted, with Finland rapidly becoming Nazi collaborators and putting down most of its internal resistance. The Continuation War followed, of course. To this day, they teach false histories about this, via the usual government censorship and creation of school curricula.
Sima Häyhä was hated by many early on and received many personal death threats to his face. His rehabilitation in pop culture is more of a thing from the 70d and 80s. Finland collaborated with Nazis and built death camps and was subsequently liberated by the USSR. With fascist groups disbanded and banned and the USSR elevated to the status of primary protagonist of winning the war against the Nazis, those who had supported the previous fascist-friendly/just plain fascist government became pretty unpopular for some time.
For USSR being the victor in WW2. Why these Finnish “russian death camps” not in most of history textbooks?
Also it’s not unreasonable to hate the aggressor. So even if they were building death camps to get revenge on Russkies. It’s not like tribal collective punishment isn’t engrained in our blood.
For USSR being the victor in WW2. Why these Finnish “russian death camps” not in most of history textbooks?
Most history textbooks barely mention Finland at all. They will often not even tell you they were Axis-aligned. You have to read historians writing specifically about this topic. No lazy bones.
Also it’s not unreasonable to hate the aggressor.
Like I said, this does not excuse allying with Nazis. I am not arguing about whether everyday Finns might have had animosity towards Russia for a few years. I am talking about being the willing Northern front for Nazi Germany, deporting Jews to camps, rounding up tons of civilians and keeping them in starvation conditions.
So even if they were building death camps to get revenge on Russkies. It’s not like tribal collective punishment isn’t engrained in our blood.
This was not tribal, it was a nation state and the forces were political. Lapua members were the key Nazi collaborators and they were anticommunist ideologues long before the Winter War.
Please refrain from bullshit human nature arguments to justify Nazi collaboration.
Most history textbooks barely mention Finland at all. They will often not even tell you they were Axis-aligned. You have to read historians writing specifically about this topic. No lazy bones.
Most of history textbooks barely mention WWII by the same notion. I won’t argue I might know too little about the history of Finland. Although seeing how overwhelmingly current day Finns seem to oppose Russia and often mention the Winter War. It does seem that USSR was the worse of two evils there.
Like I said, this does not excuse allying with Nazis.
That’s the point. They had a choise. Either side with the Allies and hence USSR (which fucked them up) or ally with Germany. It was an obvious only choise for them.
This was not tribal
The point is that tribal “us vs them” is just common. Same goes with countries. It depends if the group has a common identity.
Why do you even want to defend an empire?
What on earth are you talking about?
False understanding of your stance on my part. Sorry for that. I thought you’re defending the current day Russian state.
Most of history textbooks barely mention WWII by the same notion. I won’t argue I might know too little about the history of Finland. Although seeing how overwhelmingly current day Finns seem to oppose Russia and often mention the Winter War. It does seem that USSR was the worse of two evils there.
Is it your experience that most people are historically informed as opposed to moved to adopt narratives by dominant forces? Finns have been doing historical revisionism on their alignment with Nazis since the 1940s. You need to have better logic than, “well most Finns say so”.
That’s the point. They had a choise. Either side with the Allies and hence USSR (which fucked them up) or ally with Germany. It was an obvious only choise for them.
The Finnish police state was already fascist-aligned before the Winter War. You are just making things up and pretending it is history. It is possible to actually know things, but you have to be humble and actually read. Your imagination is not a history book.
The point is that tribal “us vs them” is just common. Same goes with countries. It depends if the group has a common identity.
I already addressed this. You can respond to what I said or ignore it entirely but I won’t be entertaining it further if you are going to cherry pick.
False understanding of your stance on my part. Sorry for that. I thought you’re defending the current day Russian state.
The current day Russian state is also not an empire. Again, what on earth are you talking about?
You keep clinging on little details. Russia is an empire due to how many smaller nations were conquered to the east. Just like USA is an Empire etc. Current rebranding doesn’t change the fact.
Fuck ton of countries were fascist just before and during WWII. It’s not a serious argument to make here. Fascism is just getting to power without democratic means.
And for the Finns. I honestly feel sad for you, if you believe there is a conspiracy theory that managed to brainwash an entire nation.
Those “little details” are the core facts in contradiction of your claims.
Russia is an empire due to how many smaller nations were conquered to the east.
The Russian Empire did so. The Soviets and RF did not. Though if we are speaking of conquering nations, the US certainly did so, and remains the same political entity it did during its genocides of indigenous Americans. The transitions to the USSR and the RF were in no way trivial, it was not just some rebranding. Both were cataclysmic.
Fuck ton of countries were fascist just before and during WWII. It’s not a serious argument to make here.
A handful of European countries were fascist around WWII. It is of course a basic fact and remains a deep stain. Please do your best to not normalize Nazi collaboration.
Fascism is just getting to power without democratic means.
That is not what fascism is at all. Not even under erroneous liberal definitions.
And for the Finns. I honestly feel sad for you, if you believe there is a conspiracy theory that managed to brainwash an entire nation.
False historical narratives do not require grand conspiracy theories. Just the very normal and common process of manufacturing consent.
Just beause Russian Empire rebranded itself it ia still basically the same size with the same subjugated people. The same yakut people are still subjugated. The cataclysmic event you’re talking about is workers revolt. The other is the collapse where quite a bit of countries at least managed to escape. All we can hope is for the fall of russia and for other cultures to emerge.
Here is the common definition:
Fascism - A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
Even if you have 2 fascist countries, their goals and decisions are and usually is different.
And for consent. Look at bloody linux distros. Even if people actually want consent, it is basically impossible to achieve. Every expert will interpret it differently and you will have multiple narratives.
Just beause Russian Empire rebranded itself it ia still basically the same size with the same subjugated people.
I addressed this in my previous comment. If you’re not going to even read and respond to what I sau, what are we doing here?
The same yakut people are still subjugated.
Good example. The Yakut people were conquered and annexed by the Russian Empire and many were forced into diaspora. The USSR created a Yakut autonomous region and gave them far more control over their own fates and lands. The RF has done very little other than the usual capitalist exploitation of resources. Three unique stories and three different experiences.
The cataclysmic event you’re talking about is workers revolt.
A revolution and creation of a new state premised on substantial regional autonomy and protection for local cultures. Ukraine today owes its entire national existence to Lenin’s insistence on promoting Ukrainian national identity and degrees of autonomy and cultural protections.
The other is the collapse where quite a bit of countries at least managed to escape.
A collapse due to capitakist takeover, a time period where the country was subjected to “shock therapy” and dissolved / split against the will of its people. Tens of millions died due to the sudden deprivations. That is the doing of your Western powers whose lines you are echoing
All we can hope is for the fall of russia and for other cultures to emerge.
Please refrain from racism.
Here is the common definition:
Fascism - A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
Yeah that’s not what you said before. Can you spot the differences? Though of course to understand fascism you will need to learn history and politics, not just Google “fascism definition”.
Even if you have 2 fascist countries, their goals and decisions are and usually is different.
Given that you don’t know what fascism is, why are you confidently announcing generalizations about it? In order to have correct ideas and be helpful to others, it is important to have humility.
And for consent. Look at bloody linux distros. Even if people actually want consent, it is basically impossible to achieve. Every expert will interpret it differently and you will have multiple narratives.
Ukraine had a national identity before Lenin, tho. Although the dude is/was ahead of it’s time. And the social idealism that follows looks pretty neat. Sadly he quickly died and another fella came to power. Usually when people bash USSR they bash Stalin’s regime. It’s far from socialist ideals. You shouldn’t mix it up and just nitpick what you like.
If people are subjugated and still remain under democratic rule, they can still be under repression, due to voting majority. It’s the same reason why Israel fears giving the vote access to palestinians.
You can try to follow Nazi fascism idea of fascism by following history notebooks. But it will get us nowhere. Without common definition that we have. Since for example Lithuania had a president which was with dictatorial levels of power during the time. He was not aligned with Nazi Germany. What kind of word would you use to describe the rule? There are reasons why fascism is defined like it is.
And dude, you can’t be racist against a country. You and I operate with completely different definitions. I doubt we’ll come to a conclusion. Would love to discuss it next to a beer, since it’s fascinating to find these so wildly difderent ideas. How do you even get to a point where you know so much but manage to draw completely different conclusions.
Ukrainians aren’t russian. Their language is different. Their culture is drastically different. Damn even regions inside Ukraine could count as different cultures.
For the split. It happened quite recently. I do recommend talking to people why they split and what was the common ideas on the streets back then from people who lived there. There were massive forced mixing in of Russians in those countries. Those people are usually the ones that still find as “it was better back then”.
Ukraine had a national identity before Lenin, tho.
It was suppressed and the language was dying out in written form.
Although the dude is/was ahead of it’s time. And the social idealism that follows looks pretty neat. Sadly he quickly died and another fella came to power. Usually when people bash USSR they bash Stalin’s regime. It’s far from socialist ideals. You shouldn’t mix it up and just nitpick what you like.
It was Stalin’s USSR that transformed from a quasi-feudal backwater into a superpower that defeated the Nazis. It did so following Marxist-Leninist principals, which is to say, the development of Marxism based on the Bolsheviks’ contributions - they seized the reins of capital and directed them to develop productive forces at a lightning pace and in a way that is never an option for imperialized countries. They ended famines, electrified the country, built rail at a scale that horrified and surprised the Nazi invasers, who remarked that little of it was on their mapsnfrom just a few years ago. And it did this under sanctions and attempted isolation by the major powers, the European capitalist forces that capitulated to the fascists, refused pacts with the USSR to build an alliance against the fascists, as they hoped they would turn east and deal with their red problem.
You should educate yourself about the USSR.
If people are subjugated and still remain under democratic rule, they can still be under repression, due to voting majority.
This can happen without voting as well and it is not inherently good or bad, relative to circumstances. We oppress murderers in one form or another. The impetus for thatbis understandable. Some have oppressed ethnic minorities for land grabs. That is not acceptable. Revolution requires oppression, you have to undo the order against which you are revolting. It does not immediately disappear just because you seized the army or run the newspapers.
It’s the same reason why Israel fears giving the vote access to palestinians.
Israel oppresses Palestinians because it seeks to steal their land and they know that Palestinians will oppose them in this. Israel is not an example of “tyranny of the majority” and it is not democratic. It is an ethnic supremaxist settler colonial apartheid state and should be destroyed as such.
You can try to follow Nazi fascism idea of fascism by following history notebooks. But it will get us nowhere.
That will get you the whole way. You must read history to understand this historical reference. No shortcuts!
Since for example Lithuania had a president which was with dictatorial levels of power during the time. He was not aligned with Nazi Germany. What kind of word would you use to describe the rule? There are reasons why fascism is defined like it is.
Lithuania’s president was a racist, antisemitic anticommunist liberal nationalists that dabbled a bit with fascists. Liberals have had all of the qualities of fascists over time and done the same kinds of deeds on a much greater scale. This is why you have to read history. If you just go by simple modern definitions, they will tell you that liberals are all about personal freedoms and equality. They will neglect to mention that liberals were the most brutal and racist colonizers and ethnic supremacists and misogynists and that this might pose a problem for their definition. They become an infinite No True Scotsman, defined in a way that means they never committed any crimes and it may be that, per their logic, no liberal has ever truly existed.
Fascists are really just a form of reactionary liberals that emerged out of inter-imperialist struggle after World War I. The fallout of WWI led to various nationalist and separatist movements in Europe as well as attempts to claim imperialist power. In particular, fascism rose most strongly in those places where conditions were degrading and communists were organizing for revolution. Fascists presented a triangulating position. They criticized the problems of capitalism by coopting socialist phrases but sought, in reallobersl simply organize capitalism into a nationalist form that had ambitions for Imperialism of their own. They built on the “fallen nation that must return to glory”, a sentiment that could only resonate among people living in a country losing its status and among degrading conditions. They offered scapegoats playing on old forms of racism. Antisemitism, anti-Roma, Anti-Russian, many more. And most importantly, they opposed the communists, which is why they were so well-funded by capitalists and found friends among liberals. Fascists found their most committed and prominent recruits from the petty bourgeoisie and their sons, an inherently liberal
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 23 Oct 23:22
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Fear, as a fellow Finn, might be a bit strong word, but it’s a definetly a concern.
I mean, if my country suffered through the Winter War, I’d consider that a very rational fear.
I’m sure Jews are pretty nervous around German hyper-nationalists too.
Lawyers will also usually advice the safer option. Even if your actions are legal, if its boarderline enough you have to defend your actions in court, its expensive and risky.
TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 06:43
nextcollapse
Lawyers will be honest or dishonest, just depending on what’s best for the person who is paying them. Their jobs are dependent on getting good outcomes for their clients, so they can most definitely be trusted if you are the one paying them.
Lawyer slander is so fucking stupid. Would you not want a lawyer on your side if it was your ass on the line? A lawyer’s job isn’t to judge wrong or right. It’s to convince a judge or jury of one’s innocence. A lawyer has to defend the morally fucked the same as they do the innocent. You can’t have one without the other.
I know this isn’t a criminal proceeding or anything of the sort but I sense that’s what the comment was referring to.
Yes they do. See the long-standing debate over the ban to export crypto algorithms to Iran.
kattfisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 23 Oct 22:28
nextcollapse
Yes, the sanctions against Russia, as mentioned by Linus. The change also said the maintainers “can come back in the future if sufficient documentation is provided”.
My guess is that the Linux Foundation must ensure that none of the people they work with are in any way associated with any organisation, person or activity on the sanctions list. And that they preemptively removed all maintainers that might risk violating the sanctions while they work with them to establish whether they might be covered by the sanctions or not.
Regardless of what you or they think of the sanctions, they are the law, and I don’t think anyone wants the Linux Foundation to have to spend their money on lawyers and fines because they had a maintainer who also worked on a research project funded by a sanctioned entity. (If that is how it works, IANAL)
Yeah, it seems like they genuinely are just trying to be compliant with the law. I do think the “anyone who has concerns about this is a Russian troll” thing is obnoxious though, knowing of the existence of sanctions doesn’t mean we’re all lawyers who know the requirements here for open source projects.
kattfisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 24 Oct 17:07
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The massive negative outcry over this fairly uninteresting change certainly seems oddly overblown, almost as if there are parties trying to turn it into a big political issue to paint Russia as a victim. But idk, nerds freak out over stuff all the time completely on their own.
Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I think the Linux Foundation has a hard time being clear on the matter because it just isn’t clear. These are new laws and a global open source cooperation run by a non-profit is likely a corner case that the lawmakers did not think about at all when making them.
almost as if there are parties trying to turn it into a big political issue to paint Russia as a victim
Idk, there’s probably some of that but until today with the clarification that the bans are happening from a list of employers they’re required not to work with, things were pretty unclear and I don’t think it was unreasonable to assume they were going beyond what was required…especially with Linus’ response being pretty tone deaf given the information critics had. People were angry what seemed like random Russian citizens were being targeted and Linus responded angrily as if we all already knew their employers were on a list despite it not being reported yet.
It’s not a huge deal but Linus is just not very good at handling this kind of thing. Nerds should have assumed there was more behind the scenes and given the benefit of the doubt, though.
OK, that’s the first reasonable explanation I’ve come across. I wish Greg Linus didn’t reply in that kind of “angry” tone, because for some of us it’s not that obvious.
Finland is experiencing suspicious acts of sabotage and disruption and believes Russia is engaged in broad-ranging influence operations against it and other European countries
Since Linus is Finnish, this literally hits home for him, hence (probably) his reaction.
Yes, but this action sounds as effective against Russian espionage as burning any clothes that has red blue and white in them.
TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
on 23 Oct 21:43
nextcollapse
Scratched liberals abound. It takes very liyyl3 for them to be racist and chauvinist.
just_another_person@lemmy.world
on 23 Oct 21:56
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Yes. What does “liberals” mean exactly?
TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
on 23 Oct 22:01
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It means supporters of the dominant ideology if capitalism, just like it has always meant.
just_another_person@lemmy.world
on 23 Oct 22:21
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Not at all true. If you’re referencing US ideologies of Capitalism, holy shit are you wrong and read the wrong Wikipedia.
In fact, the Democrats since the 60’s have run campaigns WAY against the threat of late-stage Capitalism. Republicans are the pro-capitalist party in the sense they want to privatize everything and help their friends, and also “deregulate” anything and everything.
These are anti-capitalist ideas.
Come on back with some more Wiki links, good buddy.
Aatube@kbin.melroy.org
on 23 Oct 22:32
nextcollapse
Dubliette is referring to the thought-terminating cliché that every major US party doesn't want to abolish capitalism (the economic system centered around capital, private ownership, etc.), ergo we're all liberals.
just_another_person@lemmy.world
on 23 Oct 22:42
nextcollapse
A thought-terminating cliché (also known as a semantic stop-sign, a thought-stopper, bumper sticker logic, or cliché thinking) is a form of loaded language, often passing as folk wisdom, intended to end an argument and quell cognitive dissonance.[1][2] Its function is to stop an argument from proceeding further, ending the debate with a cliché rather than a point. Some such clichés are not inherently terminating. They only become so when used to intentionally dismiss dissent or justify fallacious logic.[3]
TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
on 23 Oct 22:55
nextcollapse
I dunno how you can terminate a thought that never began
A capitalist is someone who owns capital, not someone who supports capitalism. A liberal is someone who supports capitalism. I don’t think Linus is a liberal, given that he’s the Linux guy. But he’s obviously a capitalist, and that’s okay, that’s something you should strive towards if you live under capitalism, even if ideologically you oppose capitalism.
TheOubliette@lemmy.ml
on 23 Oct 22:54
nextcollapse
Not at all true. If you’re referencing US ideologies of Capitalism, holy shit are you wrong and read the wrong Wikipedia.
I am quite correct, though I am referring to liberalism in the general internationa sense. This is what liberalism always has been. You must understand it as what it is and has done, not what it tells you it is meant to be. As Stafford Beer said, it makes no sense to think that the purpose of something is what it consistently fails to do. The liberalism of the enlightenment had in its right hand brutal, racist colonial exploitation and in its left a ruthless industrial revolution chaining the people to factories and removing them from all commond and property. It is a product of capitalism itself.
In fact, the Democrats since the 60’s have run campaigns WAY against the threat of late-stage Capitalism.
The Democrats are a capitalist party and always have been. They do not work against capitalism at all, they support it and protect it. There is really such thing as late-stage capitalism, it is just capitalism developing over time, retaining most of its qualities but taking on new angles. Buy if it does mean anything, it means neoliberalism wrought by financialization, and that is Democrats’ main political base. It’s their main thing, especially as an export.
Republicans are the pro-capitalist party in the sense they want to privatize everything and help their friends
Democrats also do this they just tell you it is efficiency and “public-private partnerships” and “a generous endowment to a public institution” (that they can now defund). The charter school movement is largely Democrats, for example. They simply have different factions on their chopping block, different groups to pander to.
These are anti-capitalist ideas.
What ideas are anti-capitalist? I didn’t see any.
Come on back with some more Wiki links, good buddy.
No thanks. Read the political philosophers of the enlightenment, colonialism, industrialization and proletarianizatikn, the liberal revolutions in Europe, and who emerged to identify themselves as anti-liberal once those revolutions established their ideologies as mainstream, namely monarchists, fascists, socialists, and anarchists. You cannot gain a political education through Wikipedia, it is a Cliffs Notes approach to social topics often written by often incorrect or heavily propagandized (or propagandist!) People, including literal Nazi apologists.
In fact, the Democrats since the 60’s have run campaigns WAY against the threat of late-stage Capitalism.
Bruh what world are you living in lmao. Obama reached to bankers uncaringly tanking the global economy by giving them money to do with as they wished (and, as always, they wished to give themselves a bonus).
I understand, thank you. My statement kind of assumes north korea is maintaining a fork of the kernel they patch and customize. It also implies NK is one of the few organizations that would accept russian contributions into their fork, given the somewhat limited number of linux projects operating outside of the sanctions.
savvywolf@pawb.social
on 23 Oct 22:07
nextcollapse
Huh. Lot of people Russian’ to conclusions in this thread.
???
We couped Ukraine in 2014 and their CIA, the SBU is committing acts of terrorism against Russia on at least a bi-weekly basis. Also, they’ve killed and continue to kill tens of thousands of civilians in the independent republics, for some reason.
The idea that Russia invaded Ukraine for no reason is absolutely brain dead
Glitterbomb@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 11:57
nextcollapse
How’s that Kool aid taste? You’re not even worth debating, it’s clear you’re a lost cause. Keep believing this, and let the rage build inside you.
Jacobin: Why the Twitter Files Are in Fact a Big DealOn the Left, there’s been a temptation to dismiss the revelations about Twitter’s internal censorship system that have emerged from the so-called Twitter Files project. But that would be a mistake: the news is important and the details are alarming.
GeneralInterest@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 10:55
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they’ve killed and continue to kill tens of thousands of civilians in the independent republics
Even if I assume the truth of that statement, do you not care about the deaths of Ukrainian civilians?
We couped Ukraine in 2014
My understanding is that Ukraine’s parliament (Rada) removed Yanukovych from his position as president. That seems fair to me. Many countries, including the US, have legal processes for removing their leaders.
electric_nan@lemmy.ml
on 24 Oct 01:33
nextcollapse
I would never. The idea that any person should be disbarred from contributing to FOSS due to the actions of their government, is incredibly exclusionary. Linus is acting as much like a toddler as daddy USA is.
finland has pretty bad climate-change-exploitation-fucking-over-the-third-world dealings in my country, despite enforcing seemingly very good stuff inside their own borders so meh, id argue they aint close to the victims they make out to be. some would argue that as a consequence for having a strong socialist influence.
i have mixed feelings about them as a country, but i recognize there are plenty of good (and even well known good) people on there because of the aforementioned good stuff, linus included. for different but not that dissimilar reasons i think contemporary russian citizens should not be blanket banned from helping everyone out.
this one is about southeast/northeast brazil, but the finnish are involved in aggressive extractivism in northwest brazil (amazon rainforest) too, and i think its even worse over there. you will dig up pretty horrible things if you do some research on it. about most of the western 1st world countries tbh.
humblebun@sh.itjust.works
on 25 Oct 00:45
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The context is that a partial descendant of an enemy species (Romulans) was the victim of a witch hunt. He was half human and a starfleet officer. He had lived in the federation his whole life.
A real world equivalent example to that would be banning Americans with Russian ancestry that were born in America and lived in America their whole lives from contributing.
That is not what’s happening here. You are arguing in bad faith. Picard would be perfectly fine with preventing Romulans in the Romulan Empire from accessing/modifying sensitive technology.
How does this prevent the Russians from accessing sensitive technology? Oh it doesn’t! It just excludes them from contributing to Linux, not from using it.
Accusing others from “arguing in bad faith” are we?
the comments on the article started off pretty good but pretty quickly devolved into a cancerous combination of NAFO and Hasbara.
jol@discuss.tchncs.de
on 24 Oct 05:21
nextcollapse
Linus has never been the best communicator, but he usually speaks the truth. But this is just bonkers and wrong. Not everyone living in Russia has “ties with Russia” other than “they were born there”. If this is about sanctions, he could have still just told them that. But instead he just disrespected contributors completely and then double down in it by being xenophobic.
Linux foundation is a US company, and he’s a EU citizen and there’s companies that those devs where employed that are under sanction , hot that hard to understand
aspiring_sage@lemmy.today
on 25 Oct 03:05
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Jumuta@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 07:49
nextcollapse
It’s really disappointing seeing Russian contributors being disrespected like this, the regime that rules Russia wasn’t entirely their fault, and allegiance, nationality, and ethnicity are all clearly different things
Also, wouldn’t a state sponsored Russian hacker pretend to be from the US or something anyway? No way they’d contribute code as a Russian, that’d just increase others’ suspicion
I agree with Linus a lot too but I strongly disagree here. I hope he’s just being made to say this because of government policies
jol@discuss.tchncs.de
on 24 Oct 08:12
nextcollapse
And the most dangerous part here is the whole rethoric of “if you disagree, you are a Russian shill”.
Man, I wish he’d leave the communication to someone else. He is so, so bad at it. And this isn’t the first time
The way he attacks critics puts himself in a bad light. But much more importantly, I read this and am still unsure if he has administrative/legal reason, security reasons or political reasons…
If I’d work in Russian propaganda, I’d love this so much. Hope this will not cause disruption in the community.
It is inherently disruptive. And “knowing” Linus, if he apologizes for the communication, it won’t come soon enough.
gigachad@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 05:31
nextcollapse
Lol, ml. users getting wild in the comments
Mihies@programming.dev
on 24 Oct 06:05
nextcollapse
I’d really like to see the criteria for delisting people, though. As Russia is not the only one waging wars, there are worse countries out there. I guess it all boils down to Linus being from Finland.
Nah. If anything, USian and non-Russian companies will add one or two more devs to their efforts to take up the slack. Linux is the bedrock of their revenue streams.
If your company is on the U.S. OFAC SDN lists, subject to an OFAC sanctions program, or owned/controlled by a company on the list, our ability to collaborate with you will be subject to restrictions, and you cannot be in the MAINTAINERS file.
That sounds like an advice, not something official? Also why is an open source project affected by US sanctions? It’s not an US open source project, or is it?
But does it mean they own Linux? They list (support I guess) a lot of projects, including RISC-V. BTW smart move from RISC-V
emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Oct 09:06
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The Linux kernel (the code) is open-source. Linux Foundation (the people who write said code) is headquartered in the US. The US can decide what Linux Foundation can and cannot do, who works there, etc. They can’t control who uses the code.
somegeek@programming.dev
on 24 Oct 06:11
nextcollapse
One of the worst news I’ve read lately.
Why aren’t Israeli maintainers removed? Oh because linux is basically owned by IBM now.
The linux kernel isn’t free anymore. It’s open source, but not free.
AI_toothbrush@lemmy.zip
on 24 Oct 06:15
nextcollapse
I understand where this comes from, he is finnish but this is pretty unprofessional.
hitwright@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 09:34
nextcollapse
I’m pretty sure not just the US wants Russia sanctioned to the oblivion. All of the Europe that borders Russia wants that. Now why would it be like that?
That’s more like his opinion or a post facto justification. Turns out it is a US thing.
If your company is on the U.S. OFAC SDN lists, subject to an OFAC sanctions program, or owned/controlled by a company on the list, our ability to collaborate with you will be subject to restrictions, and you cannot be in the MAINTAINERS file.
So to get back, you have to basically prove that you have no relations with OFAC SDN companies.
Everyone who disagrees with me is a paid russian troll of course. Nobody would oppose blacklisting people based on nothing but their nationality unless they were getting paid for it.
hitwright@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 09:38
nextcollapse
I guess it’s difficult to otherwise explain the position you have? It’s not like people face criminal charges in Russia just for speaking against it. It’s easy to see how the state would want to introduce backdoors to most western systems.
It’s extremely sad that a lot of good Russians get swooped in this. But even abroad their lives are in danger to fight the state.
I doubt if someone wants to introduce a backdoor, they would do that with a russian mailing address. People removed were open and transparent about their nationalities which means there is even less chance them being bad actors than some random guy pretending to be American.
I think you’re making up a world in your head. Who are these “lots” of “good” Russians who are abroad and whose lives are in realistically danger of state assassination? Not that it has never happened, but you’re blowing things out of proportion. Probably Russia does it at a scale roughly similar to the US.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 24 Oct 14:30
nextcollapse
I think you’re making up a world in your head.
My friend, they poisoned people in the UK with a fucking nerve agent. They are so brazen and open about people being killed for not doing that the Kremlin tells them.
They have purposely made a meme out of the “suspiciously fell from window” thing, because they want people to know exactly what happens and why.
We’re not talking about taking out former spies in foreign, sovereign nations you dolt. I used that as an example to show just how brazen and open they are about this stuff. Using such a dangerous method, on foreign soil, is basically unheard of.
If you actually want to talk about frequency, we should be looking at the defenestration cases…
This shit is happening so frequently that there are several wiki pages dedicated to listing them:
Scroll down to “see also” for a long list of related articles about the Russian government assassinating citizens and low-level bureaucrats.
Assuming you actually give a shit
EDIT: apparently Lemmy markdown doesn’t like the link. For anyone who can’t figure out why it’s not working, or for some weird reason thinks I would make up a wiki page with a title that specific:
It’s almost as if the markdown on Lemmy changed the text of the link so it’s not valid.
And you couldn’t take the 3 second to fix it, and then actually learn something.
Well done.
You also seem confused about what we are even talking about. We are referring to software developers WITHIN RUSSIA. So the risk of defenestration is very real. Again, to repeat myself, I only brought up Russia using chemical warfare on foreign soil as an example to show how open and brazen they are.
I edited the original comment with a fixed link if you actually care
We’re talking about poisoning a single person not a gas cloud. Poisoning a single person vs drone striking a wedding.
LeFantome@programming.dev
on 24 Oct 16:38
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Very nice link that not only does not have a list of names but also fairly explicitly explains that it is not talking about Americans killing Americans.
I am not going to spend more than 30 seconds on it but here is the first list of “lots” of Russians that are believed to have been assassinated by their own government.
Despite your personal attacks, the trivially discoverable facts are not on your side.
I used Wikipedia since you apparently find it credible.
My favourite “suicide” of a notable Russian in the last couple of years was the one that had a suicide note signed by “illegible signature” ( what it actually said ). I guess the FSB did not totally understand the instructions.
Indeed A LOT of falling out of windows. Quite a bit of poisoning as well. These are the successful ones. How about that time they poisoned the entire Ukrainian peace team including the owner of the Chelsea Football Club?
“The imperial core is sanctioning Russia therefore you are a Russian troll.” Impeccable logic.
boincboy3000@feddit.org
on 24 Oct 08:54
nextcollapse
Hm i never coded a line in my life, but i always wondered so honest question to the experts here: is it realistic that someone codes security back doors so hidden in other bad or wrong documented code, that nobody recognizes it in OSS community? I mean code is getting more complicated and specialized, dont you need more and more human resources (more than one person and hopefully not all with a bad intention) to check over that code? If im correct you shouldnt let more code into your software than the community is able to check an validate several times… Doesnt mean it has to be russians that need to be excluded idk
There will be a million security issues across all OSS. Some of it will be intentional; if so definitely don’t expect it to be a “findable” back door. It will be a set of vulnerabilities across several projects, that when combined allow the perpetrators privilege-escalations or a known path through a security system. Removing “Russians” from contribution doesn’t actually stop that, everyone can use a VPN and work as an American or whatever, but it does send a signal.
Yes, not only is it realistic, it has actually happened. It’s easier to write code than understand it. Even when reviewing code, you miss more or less obvious issues. Not to mention intentional vulnerabilities that can be sneaked in over multiple commits and time span long enough to make reviewers forget the larger context.
This might not be super useful if you don’t write code but I always found the contest submissions fun to read and try to figure out for the www.underhanded-c.org contest.
They break down and explain the runner up and finalist for each year and how the attack works. It’s usually something very subtle that most people wouldn’t catch.
As a finn, I understand that there are probably legal reasons for doing this.
I just wish they would be transparent and share those reasons with us. The Linux kernel is certainly not the only free software project that is impacted, if this comes straight from EU/US sanctions. Maintainers of other projects have a lot of interest in what is happening.
Transparency is also important because if EU/US policy/sanctions are causing issues for free software projects, then that discussion needs to be public, so that there is a chance to amend the policies if necessary.
That is hardcore wishful thinking, the nature by which critical digital infrastructure is developed and maintained is of keen importance to political systems everywhere. This situation was inevitable with the ongoing escalation of war
It has to be there, because politics is connected with lawmaking, and open source software is dependent on laws.
A lot of people like to say that politics isn’t in their life or that they keep politics out of their life, but the reality is that’s just not true. The rules that govern society affect you, always, either with or without your input, either with or without your acknowledgment.
You’re probably trying to say that we should keep pointless politicking out of open source software, and I agree, but that’s going to come down to personal definitions of pointlessness.
LeFantome@programming.dev
on 24 Oct 23:02
collapse
The legal reasons was because the Linux Foundation is based in the USA and the targeted devs worked for companies explicitly sanctioned by the USA. Linus said he knew and trusted the devs he was forced to delist.
The Linux Foundation needs to relocate to some stable neutral country like Switzerland.
NauticalNoodle@lemmy.ml
on 24 Oct 10:47
nextcollapse
He alludes to sanctions being a factor but never clarifies on advice from his lawyers. ngl I don’t like the look of it just from a transparency perspective.
Probably because the advice in question was lengthy and technical (subtype: laws and legality), and the short form had the disclaimer "Please don’t publish the short form because it’s too much like giving legal advice.) Something similar happened back in 2012 with Project Byzantium, when we were consulting with the EFF with respect to having cryptographic libraries included in the distro.
Arcturus@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 24 Oct 11:39
nextcollapse
We’re gonna start seeing large open source communities start to break into smaller ones because of sanctions from now aren’t we?
Dunno. But this post is about Linus Torwalds booting Russians from an open source project due to their association with a warmongering regime. It’s nothing to do with the US.
Eyck_of_denesle@lemmy.zip
on 25 Oct 05:23
nextcollapse
You seriously think that the US are not warmongering?
My point was, that your enemy might be in your ranks.
Some of your dotzend secret services might have other goals than the interests of the common people. It’s rarely only black and white.
Btw, didn’t they ask Linus to include a backdoor once already?
Arguably, ITAR set the precedent in the 1990’s during the crypto wars. USians used to have to travel to Canada to work on cryptographic code in OpenBSD because their commits couldn’t legally be exported.
GhiLA@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 15:46
nextcollapse
You don’t need sanctions. I’ve seen you petty fucks fork projects over a font.
KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml
on 25 Oct 02:20
nextcollapse
They’ll fight over fonts meanwhile WordPress is on fire and where are the forks?
threaded - newest
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No, it’s not good, it’s blatantly russophobic.
I would get it if he would have simply stated that the Linux Foundation needs to abide by the sanctions, pretty much what GKH had said. But for Linus to go ahead with his stupid russophobic rant about Russian bot farms (LOL) is really too much.
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Really it’s the reverse – Ukraine is committing war crimes. Shelling civilians is a war crime. Murdering people you think that are sympathetic to the Russian gov is a war crime.
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I mean, that’s basically what he said:
Doesn’t sound like they banned Russians in general, just people employed by sanctioned companies.
The comments under the article are a special kind of braindead.
Yeah. Why is everyone saying this is removing their contribution credits? It's just a list of active maintainers...
This is not an unusual comment section on Phoronix, to put it mildly.
That’s a fair point. I rarely read comments on news articles, but morbid curiosity overpowered my self-preservation instinct.
Always is with Phoronix comments.
You find everything there from “Gnome is satanist” all the way up to pro-genocide crap.
I really don’t know what it is about the site that brings out the craziest souch.
For half a second there, I was like “yeah, so glad Lemmy is more rational than that site”.
Few comments later, folks be talking about “Ukranian Nazis”…
Hahaha I saw the parent commentor of that chain notorious for getting into back and forth arguments, sometimes reasonable sometimes not, and I thought to myself, this is going to be fun. Then I recognized the username of that other .ml user as a known troll and I was like, yep now this is going to go way off the rails.
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Edgy tweens being edgy.
I just smoked weed and … smoked weed.
are you a CIA bot or what? since when did people start ignoring facts and just repeat state department or fed propaganda? very strange.
🤣
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Hoo boy, you weren’t kidding. I find it amazing how quickly this went from “the kernel team is enforcing sanctions” to an an unfriendly abstract debate about the definition of liberalism. I shouldn’t, really, but I still am.
Wholesome banderite chungus
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/a092facc-49ff-4809-90d8-8636ff8ee2be.jpeg">
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/cf9490dc-4236-4721-ab2d-9f26378b2a34.jpeg">
I would wager that every country has far-right elements, including Russia.
What Russia claims though is that the Ukrainian government is full of Nazis, which I don’t think is true.
“Bcachefs sucks because I use ext4”
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/64e68abb-1841-4789-98fe-05c853500e2b.gif">
The absolute disregard of having any moderation is what does that. If there was any, there wouldn’t be the cases like having someone be there by their third account, after the first two got banned.
Not to mention that controversy = angry people and trolls = more clicks = more ad revenue. I don’t think Michael wants to miss out on it.
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Some old folk are reminded of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_from_the_United_States
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I'm giving an example of sanctions applying to software.
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How is this a conspiracy theory‽
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I didn't link to that!
What? No: I am a graybeard, and I lived through those software embargoes.
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why the fuck are we using that word here? just read the article yourself, "auteur de war" sans nees
sir this is a public fora, people speak as they wish?
better reasoning comment up:
https://thebrainbin.org/m/linux@lemmy.ml/t/348217/Phoronix-Linus-Torvalds-Comments-On-The-Russian-Linux-Maintainers-Being/comment/3467412#entry-comment-3467412
This actually makes common sense.
Freeze peach doesn't mean you can call people "fag"s. By using that word you're 1. insulting those who express their gender as they wish 2. calling us names
Also, my point is that there is precedent for laws to geopolitcally restrict open source. I agree that there is a real security issue.
wtf does this mean? i did not call anyone anything. what word?
soy boy
I’m a soy boy
learn to read...
Yes... Now do context read on what i said...
I'm done explaining.
The issue is you are not reading it or reading without understanding context.
If your issue here is the use of the term, thats a you issue.
You cant even articulate the issue tho beyond dont like usage of the word, period.
You tried to suggest i was calling somebody else this term but ... I wasnt
Maybe try explaining what you meant instead of complaining that everyone is misunderstanding you. I dont see any context clues in there to indicate you mean anything other than the standard accepted meaning of “soyboy”
As you know, they do not.
clearly...
Oh, did I get whooshed by a meme? :(
I think you read it right which is the bad part based on down votes 👻
I was referring to the other guy not being able to read beyond usage "bad" word
Ah, the Crypto Wars…
Is there a specific reason for this?
Nobody has stated any actual reason. Based on Linus’ comments, Russophobia is the likely answer.
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Liberals love collective punishment and have been in a Russophobic bender for decades, with an uptick in recent years. They hate all Russians and repeat racist rhetoric from Ukrainian Nazis.
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Get that homophobia out if here
I didn’t think that being murdered by Putin’s thugs is specifically Homophobic, but do let us know in the comments.
Like and Subscribe.
It seems pretty clear that the negative implication is putin’s regime abusing his authority for sexual favors (especially given all the mass rapes by russian forces in ukraine…) and not that said favors are bad because theyre gay. It’s telling that they assumed it was based in homophobia, though.
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Of course there was and it is why their comment was removed.
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That is of course a homophobic insult
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Get that homophobia out of here.
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Liberalism is primarily an international term. You are very confused if you think it is just about US “left” politics.
And I said that there are Ukrainian Nazis whose racism is repeated by liberals. This is a simple fact.
this propaganda is no longer any good bro... 2014-22, it was decent engagement slop for the westoid but it don't work. why are y'all still using it?
Because liberals repeated and repeat the talking points of Ukrainian Nazis.
You seem to be under the midapprheen that they either didn’t exist or went away. That would be incorrect.
i trust you bro
No need for trust, it is public record
Because it is established fact, as even Western mainstream media has reported.
I’m well aware that liberal is an international term.
However, it is used very differently in the US to everywhere else. In the US, liberal is used to pretty much mean “left wing” or “relating to the Democrat party”.
People in the US wouldn’t describe an expansion in gun rights as something the libs would want, for example.
Nor would people in the US agree that liberal people want more freedoms for businesses.
But those are parts of liberal ideology elsewhere.
And I said fuck off with your Ukraine Nazi bullshit. Stop parroting Russian propaganda, gimboid.
When he says “Liberals love collective punishment…” he is not saying left wing, he is saying loudly right wing.
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Dude I’m not endorsing his comment, I’m saying what he means with “Liberals”
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👍
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? When I said anything about facism? About any country? When I defend anybody? When I said any Russian propaganda? You just put words in my mouth because I’m from lemmy.ml. Get a life.
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👍
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Yet you assumed I made a US-specific reference when I did in no way do so.
Yes I know. I was not using it in that sense.
It is not bullshit. There are and have been Ukrainian Mazis and liberals falling over themselves to repeat their racist and chauvinist talking points.
You absolutely were using it in that sense.
There is literally nowhere on planet earth where humans live in any large number where you will not find Nazis.
Claiming that Ukraine is rife with it in any meaningful sense is very much a Russian talking point, and even one of the defenses given by Russia in starting their war/genocide.
Stop repeating Russian propaganda.
Honestly, what is it with lemmy.ml and people who love Russia?
I was not. Please do your best to participate in good faith and not make things up, let alone make them up and then repeatedly assert them based on nothing.
That is true, but also does not contradict anything I have said, nor does it excuse those who repeat their racist and chauvinist talking points.
I haven’t said anything like this. That is your insertion.
Please stop lying about what I have said.
It’s not me, it is you doing a poor job at wrestling with your cognitive dissonance. My mere mention of Russophobia from liberals, borrowed from Ukrainian Nazis, resulted in you inventing entire lines of thought and arguments that were not there rather than directly engaging with the facts if the matter. This is defensive behavior intended to avoid what I said and return to an arena where you feel more comfortable.
Not ironically, that arena is one where you feel comfortable being against Russia, lmao.
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Yes, liberals are often Russophobic nowadays.
Russia is more of an oligarchy, like a huge number of countries that are not the current Object of Hate. Russia is not committing a genocide, that is absurd. It is a conventional modern war, which is horrific enough on its own. The US and Israel are committing genocide, however. The US is doing two at once, actually. Re: mass rape, there is little to no evidence of anything systemic, which I believe is what this would have to mean. But again, war is horrific, and rape is a common wrapon of war. No armies of Western states are innocent of this.
Anyways I am getting tripped up in your internalized propaganda. What propaganda am I repeating, exactly, and how is it false?
The Nazis are the people with Black Sun tats normalizing racial slurs and shelling civilian areas.
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Russia is run by its major capitalists. They just have a team captain for the political sphere.
It is not, per the UN’s definition. Feel free to explain your rationale.
Show yiur evidence of systemic mass rape. I have never seen anything but racist rumors from propagandists.
Please do your best to engage in good faith and not lie about me.
I think you have found your “get-out-of-thinkkng-free” card. You seem positively delighted at the prospect of not having to actually contend with the realities presented.
Nopez that was Kyiv for a decade via its committed fascistic shock troops. Do you know where Right Sector went after Euromaidan?
The ones that are, are.
Only love speech for Banderites, please.
lmao
I mean, I hate most Russians, but only since they invaded Ukraine.
Russia whines endlessly about ancient wrongs against them, the Finns have a lot to remember about Russia too.
Presumably you also hate most Americans and Israelis, then.
Personally, I only hate those who take an active role in a major injustice and am merely frustrated with those who are passive, and I do so consistently across nationalities.
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And yet, by and large, Palestinians, facing genocide, focus their fights on soldiers and military equipment while showing empathy towards those Israelis who aren’t actively expressing racism towards them.
But yes Palestinians do have every right to resist occupation and genocide through violence.
But this was not my question. It is whether you consiste tky believe in and apply the rhetoric you are using or whether you are, note likely, swept up in the current hate-on towards all Russians.
This reads as very racist and draws on orientalist tropes. I assume you picked them up from the upsurge in fascistic rhetoric, including from Ukrainian Nazis whose rhetoric has been amplified and anonymized/filtered through mainstream repetitiom, and have not discovered this talking point de novo.
tf are you talking about. The fall of the USSR came with a mass expropriation if wealth and industry and social programs at the expense of tens of millions of lives. Attempts to join the imperial core were rebuffed, it was placed in permanent shock therapy territory and systematically excluded. They did exactly what Western interests wanted them to do. This is the Russia your ideology created.
There was never a pause in imperialist escalation.
I see that rather than ask yourself whether you consistently apply your logic, you are here just revealing that you are a nationalist that truly does not care and is now excited for a world war.
I’m excited for Russia seeing justice.
And a world War?
With Russia and whose army? Because theirs can’t handle Ukraine on their own. Their missiles explode on the launchpad, their submarines sink themselves, their only aircraft carrier has more Russian kills than enemy.
Oh, you honestly think China will save them? That’s absolutely adorable.
That shock therapy? That was their own oligarchs looting Russia wildly, which is why corruption has destroyed the Russian military so completely.
Russia has historically felt their only safety came from the perception by others that they were strong. That perception was utterly shattered by Ukraine, forever.
There is no way this turns out that is not disastrous for Russia, but then again I guess they just call that ‘history’. Personally I’m looking forward to it with anticipation.
Not thirsty for blood, thirsty for justice, as are much of Europe that were victims of Russian imperialism under the name of ‘buffer states’. Now those states are stronger than them and everyone is desperately eager to watch them suffer.
I could make a fortune selling popcorn in eastern Europe.
Russian hatred? We call that ‘being European’.
Just Russia? Or all countries with the same violations that outrage you? What about those with even worse? Are you excited for justice in all cases?
Yes.
A world war would involve multiple countries on both sides, dragged in by mutual ties and a recognition of which camp would have it in for them in victory. Starting am open war with Russia would drag in all nations that have sought independence and needed to build up a military to prevent being overcome by the domjnant superpower. Eventually it would drag in every major state. It is hard to say how all of the chios would fall, but the conditions under which Russia were openly targeted for destruction would immediately create alarm in China, Iran, and most of Africa. That bloc has an order of magnitude more productive capacity and manpower than the “good guys” you would have in mind.
Russia could destroy and overtake UA at basically any time but is instead choosing this status quo as achieving a strategic objective, namely bleeding UA of manpower and weapons stocks. Russia has notably not used the scorched earth approach that NATO and NATO ally countries have consistently taken during their invasions, one where mass civilian destruction and terror are the main components of victory and control, where their forces fall apart the minute theyvlack air superiority. UA does not have sufficient air defenses to prevent such attacks, Russia simply chooses not to make them.
If things turn south, I have no doubt Russia would adopt the more NATO-ie “make the civilian population scream for mercy and then push them even harder” approach.
You might as well just write, “I am easily misled by propaganda”. Since the beginning of the war, the false prospect that Ukraine could win has been essential for manufacturing consent for every ask made by Kyiv and the US government, up to and including mass deindustrialization of regions of Europe and making the EU dollar dependent again. Just follow the sources of what you read and ask what they choose to report on vs not and who pays them. It will be revealing.
Save them from what? If China is in a world war you can kiss any semblance of normalcy in your life goodbye. You should fear these prospects, not LARP about how much you will win. These are all nuclear powers with greater industrial capacity.
Feel free to familiarize yourself with what shock therapy refers to in this context. No lectures from you about this if you don’t know something so basic. But, in short: the oligarchs were created by this shock therapy, of mass privatization, and it was done by US policy in the region. Modern Russia is a direct consequence of US shock therapy treatment.
Silly little fairy tales.
What about a disaster in Russia makes you excited?
Justice is not abstract, it has a grounding in ending injustice, creating accountability, and making whole. Given that you seem, unprompted, pretty stoked for war, I don’t accept your claim to not have thirst for blood.
Re: Europe being victims of imperialism, what on earth are you talking about? I assume you are referring to the Warsaw Pact but I can only guess at what comic book-esque brainworms are at work.
So you wish suffering on the Russian people? Sounds pretty Russophobic.
Ah, sounds like you
This is hilarious. That anyone would stand up for Russia, one of the most hated states on the planet.
China especially, they would watch and wait till Russia was about to fail, and take their eastern territories, giving them both the land and resources they are so desperate for.
Russia is a country without meaningful allies (oh, I’m sorry, I forgot north Korea), in a world that hates them and wants to see them suffer for their past actions.
Poland alone would do anything for the chance to revisit Russia with a fraction of the pain they’ve caused over the centuries, and nobody would dare stop them.
This is inevitable, the Russian decline guarantees their predation and destruction at the hands of their growing neighbors.
Like I said, popcorn futures.
What no material grounding does to a person. There is a reason Russia is increasingly popular in the Sahel. Do you think it might also have something to do with Europe and material interest?
Though maybe I shouldn’t elaborate. It is probably good for the rest of the world if chauvinist Europeans falsely believe they represent it.
What, the trees and steppes? China’s material interests in Russia are in fossil fuels and their derivatives, industrial capacity for key industries (though China is overtaking), and as a market to sell things to.
Just repeating “European chauvinists represent the world” over and over again Lmao. At the moment European states are certainly acting against Russia, making yourself into weakened American dependencies and shooting the prospect of an independent Eurooe in the head to do it. But that is more manufactured consent than any real popular push. This is why Europe is taking a rightward turn against the liberal order that seeks to isolate Russia: y’all are paying a hefty price to do the US’ bidding.
This is, more or less, historical illiteracy.
Growing neighbors like what? Belarus? Azerbaijan? Kazakhstan? If you mean China you can just say China.
Though again you have the material developments flipped. Europe is selling itself to Americans, not getting one over on Russia. Europe still buys Russian fossil fuels they just do so at a significant mark-up via middle men.
Like I said, ethnic supremacist. And with that said, I won’t be giving you more attention.
It’s like you’ve never even heard of BRICS+, which is having its annual conference in Russia right now.
You have no idea what is going on in the world. Russia has rather a lot of allies in fact, it’s just that none of them are imperial core countries.
You may not have noticed that most of the world is ignoring the international rules-based order’s sanctions. And not only almost all of the Global South, which represents ~85% of the world’s people and the bulk of the world’s production* and natural resources. Even many Global North countries are skirting their own sanctions to trade with Russia.
The Global North is largely sanctioning itself, and Europe is paying a very high price for it. In particular high energy prices, which is eroding their industrial base even more.
You’re running on pure, undiluted Western propaganda.
*Since the Global North in its infinite wisdom de-industrialized itself.
Hmm yes, we all remember when noted liberal Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest geopolitical threat facing the US.
Mitt Romney is a liberal, yes.
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Tragically unfunny deflection
The security issue is very likely scenario. If you’re in Russia, you can go to jail at any moment on totally bogus charges. It is very easy for FSB to pressure some random kernel maintainer into adding hard to detect backdoor into their code, it will be XZ situation all over again.
thank you... now this makes sense.
so presumably this applied to Russians nationals living within Russia.
If that's accurate, the measure is proper IMHO
Fuck Russia. Pretty good reason.
For what reason do all Russians deserve to be punished and excluded as pariahs?
Being obediet dogs like germans during nazi regime.
Nearly all citizens are obedient to their countries. Why single out Russians?
Becuase russia and israel are causing seriouss issues currently.
Before you do america too... Decent part of america was not larping the war either. It is shameful what we did in middle east for israels benefit.
Hopefully never again but who are we kidding...
Yes this is the obvious cognitive dissonance that arises from my question. The US has invaded and bombed countries, couped countries, plunged millions into poverty and death, consistently for decades. Buy I don’t see any if you saying, “Fuck America” and trying to kick all Americans out of your spaces.
The US is backing Israel’s genocide to the hilt righy now. It would not happen without American support that Israel depends on. And most European countries are backseat supporters if that agenda. Where is your bleating for villification of every person from all those countries?
Which war? There have been so many US-bscked wars in recent years that I have no idea which one you would be referring to.
But I am confused about the qualifier. Who had said anything about larping? This is collective punishment and chauvinism against all Russians.
Can I get a “Fuck America”?
Not just never again, it is happening right now, under Dems, with support of their candidates that is part of the admin doing genocide. Every pro-Harris post on this site is a tacit endorsement. Should we ban them?
Fediserve is US centric platform, nobody going to be saying fuck America.
However, the sentiment here is pretty strong against the current situation both socio-economics wise and support for Israel... I don' think this a mainstream opinion quite there yet but people getting wiser on these issues.
I meant decent part of US population did not larp ME wars in early 2000s.
You should be if you respect your own thoughts that you are sharing.
Really, you are tacitly aknowledging what this really is: national chauvinism and Russophobia. Liberals taking their opportunity to be racist and xenophobic without being singled out as problematic.
It is below the bare minimum, it is just slightly less jingoistic than in spaces curated by monopolies and staffed with literal feds. Pro-genocide discourse is strong here, it just hides behind electoralism discourse and feigned reluctance.
It won’t be a mainstream opinion in US-centric spaces without political education of such people.
It was a very small part of it, really. Liberals rewrote their histories about their support for wars of aggression against Iraq and Afghanistan. They pretend to have been against it when they were actually part of their version of the “silent majority” and rampant islamophobia. The protests rapidly ran out of steam as Americans don’t even know how to fight against their state.
yes 🤡
There it is, .ml maga losers raising their heads off the mud again
They keep bringing up how small the protests were and how they “ran out of steam” or w/e. It really shows how little they actually know about the US.
The protests against the War on Iraq represented a small percentage of the US population and ran out of steam in a few weeks.
Lmfao sure dude, whatever you need to believe. We’ll save a seat for you over here in reality whenever you feel like joining the rest of us.
These are just basic facts about what happened. Liberals went home pretty quickly.
Just like how they did a pink hat protest, i.e. police-sanctioned march, and then went home for years.
I think you are confused. Being against the genocide of Gaza is not a MAGA thing.
Idk there fits many kind of Nazis in the maga crowd
Because Russia has invaded another country and is currently committing a genocide. Christ 🤦♀️
Russia is not committing a genocide. However, the US and Israel are have been invading Lebanon and Syria.
Do you support removing all Americans from the maintainer lost? Can I get a “Fuck America”?
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Of course it is not. By definition. Russia is conducting a conventional war and with far less indiscriminate bombing than typical Western “interventions”. But it would be amazing to see your logic and then try to apply it consistently.
Like that of Gaza? Lebanon? Syria? Iraq? Afghanistan? Haiti? Are you consistent in your hate?
There is no evidence of systemic mass rape by Russia in Ukraine.
Well yes that is definitely true. But again, are you consistent in your hate? Because if the object is human rights abuses Russia is nowhere near the top.
Inconsistency in pursuit of chauvinism is so common that one must regularly try to reorient the confused and biased framings. If you have this much vitriol for Russia and thr people in it despite other countries doing more and worse why do you not hate those countries and everyone in them just as much? It more?
It reveals that, despite the pretenses and rhetoric, none of that really matters to you. It is just an excuse for getting to be chauvinist.
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Get that homophobia outbof here
We aren’t talking about “all Russians”. What thread are you watching?
Of course you are. This thread is about people getting kicked off the maintainer list for simply being Russian and y’all are bleating “good, fuck Russia”.
Yes. I am saying that the Russian people who were maintaining anything in the Linux kernel commits have a very real threat of not only being compromised to do ill, but also have their identity on the commit chain being taken over by state actors.
What in the hell are you arguing for here?
lmao what a load of crap.
But anyways thanks for contradicting yourself.
If I’m saying this, and the founders and mainters of the Linux Kernel agree, it really seems like I’m not wrong here.
Might be time reevaluate some stuff.
Linus is just following the law, the law != doing the right thing.
There’s a law for Open Source projects with no country governance? Holy shit. News to me.
Lmfao, what law is being followed here? Come on.
What? He is doing what the lawyers is saying to do, the quote:
"No, but I’m not a lawyer, so I’m not going to go into the details that I - and other maintainers - were told by lawyers.
He is following the sanctions.
He is being pretty vague there. It could be any number of things in the orbit of anti-russia pressuring. That could include the feds pressuring legally, but it could also be many other less direct things or even a personal political decision.
They are being cagey.
That’s true. I’m more inclined of the idea that he is just trying to avoid conflict to focus on the development.
That’s a common idea that I see in this type of people.
Is that type of person, “asshole”? That seems to be the entirety of Linus’ personality, such as it is.
I’ll not confirm or deny.
:)
Maybe he’s trying to avoid conflict with US government, but he clearly is not trying to avoid conflict with that statement.
Believe or not both you and Linus Torvalds can be wrong. Shocking, I know. I don’t know how you’ll break the news to your loved ones.
Yes, like you contradicting your entire previous comment and then continuing on like nothing happened.
This is not collective punishment.
Of course it is. It is punishing all members of a nationality for the actions if their government.
I didn’t realize all Russians were in the Linux kernel maintainers file. Silly me.
A trivial bad faith reading. Think about it for a few seconds more: what qualified their removal?
Read a newspaper some time. You might learn a thing about that.
lmao what kind of zinger is that
He just applied Russians’ favorite soviet era saying “those who is not with us is against us”
Who did that? And that is a cartoonish an embarrassing thing for you to say I’d a soviet saying, let alone a popular one.
All it takes is reading the article to see why it was done. You clearly did not do that and instead inserted your own agenda.
I did read the article and drew the conclusion I just stated. Feel free to offer your own take.
While he certainly wasn’t sensitive about how he said it, he did state is was sanctions related.
He was not clear on that at all. For all we know it could be an excuse among the several vague ones he gave or a reference to pressure from Feds.
The “various comoliance requirements” are unstated. Everything here is being left to a vague implication.
Phobia, by definition, is uncontrollable, irrational, and lasting fear for something. In the current geopolitics situation I’d say that it’s not uncontrollable and very much not irrational. Fear, as a fellow Finn, might be a bit strong word, but it’s a definetly a concern.
When I first read that I thought that the response is a bit harsh, as Russian (and Soviet Union) individuals have traditionally been a big part of open source community and their achievements on computing are pretty significant, but when you dig a bit deeper on that, a majority of Soviet era things are actually built by Ukrainians in Kyiv (obviously Ukraine as a country wasn’t a thing back then).
Also, based on my very limited sight on the matter, Russians are not banned from contributing, but this is more of an statement that anyone working for the government in Russia can’t be a part of kernel development team. There’s of course legal reasons for that, very much including the trade bans against Russia, but also the moral part of it, which Linus seems to take a stand on.
Personally I’ve seen individuals at Russia to do quite amazing feats with both hardware and software, but as none of us are in a void without any external infcluence nor affect, I think that, while harsh, the “sanctions” (for a lack of better word) aren’t overshooting anything, but they’re instead leveling the playing field. Any Joe Anynymous could write a code which compromises the kernel as a whole, but should that Joe live in Russia, it might bring a government backed team which can hide their tracks on a quite a bit different level with their resources than any individual could ever even dream about.
So, while that decision might slow down some implementations and it might include some of the most capable of developers, the fear that one of them might corrupt the whole project isn’t unreasonable and, with ongoing sanctions in place (and legal requirements that follow) the core dev team might not even have a choice on this.
In current global environment we’re living in, I’d rather have a bit too careful management than one which doesn’t take things seriously enough. We already have Canonical and others to break stuff way too often, we don’t need malicious government to expand on that with nefarious purposes which could compromise a shit on of stuff on a very fundamental level if left unattended.
Russophobia is the fear or hatred of Russia or people from Russia. Etymology is not semantics, as anyone should already know.
This is simply false. Soviet contributions spanned a large array of ethnicitied and nationalities and Ukraine was a minority in their regard, as were all ethnicities and nationalities.
Though I don’t see why your point would matter. Is Russophobia only bad if Russians have made enough contributions to your field of interest?
To my knowledge, nothing at all has been said about working for the Russian government or: this issue. It I’d a blanket exclusion of all Russians from the maintainer list.
Presumably you support much harsher sanctions against all Americans, Brits, Germans, French, and Israelis, then. Are you any of these things? Perhaps you should start advocating for sanctions on yourself.
That is in no way unique to Russia and we already have plenty of examples of US, Israeli, and other Western countries compromising systems and software. Do just a little bit of critical thinking.
Ok, seems logical so far.
Linus is Finnish, maybe this is also a lesson: “Don’t brutalize random neighboring countries because in the future they might be in a position to fuck you in the ass.”?
I mean, the Winter War is kind of not a fond memory for them, though everybody loves some Sima Häyhä, one of the most righteous men of the 20th century.
I will dispute your framing, but why does it justify collective punishment and hatred if all people from a country?
At the time of the Winter War, Finland had existed for about 20 years, same as the USSR. Both emerged out of the Russian Empire. The USSR sought land and space for military defense against its Northern flank near St Petersburg, which was vulnerable, as well as, ideally, ports to seal from water invasions. Finland rejected every attempt at land exchanges, which was of course their right, but the USSR also, correctly, predicted that Finland would facilitate the Nazi advance and that this land was necessary to repel their war. Faced with an existential threat, they invaded Finland and took much of the land they needed and the war unfolded there exactly as predicted, with Finland rapidly becoming Nazi collaborators and putting down most of its internal resistance. The Continuation War followed, of course. To this day, they teach false histories about this, via the usual government censorship and creation of school curricula.
Sima Häyhä was hated by many early on and received many personal death threats to his face. His rehabilitation in pop culture is more of a thing from the 70d and 80s. Finland collaborated with Nazis and built death camps and was subsequently liberated by the USSR. With fascist groups disbanded and banned and the USSR elevated to the status of primary protagonist of winning the war against the Nazis, those who had supported the previous fascist-friendly/just plain fascist government became pretty unpopular for some time.
This country attacked me. Should I allow their enemies to reach them through my territory? Sure.
“USSR correctly predicted this!”
The timeline is fuwky wucky in your argument mate
Ah yes, the famed “reluctant” Nazi collaborators that just had to help Nazis and build death camps to get revenge on the Russkies.
I wonder why all of these liberals here keep making excuses for Nazis and Nazi collaborators.
For USSR being the victor in WW2. Why these Finnish “russian death camps” not in most of history textbooks?
Also it’s not unreasonable to hate the aggressor. So even if they were building death camps to get revenge on Russkies. It’s not like tribal collective punishment isn’t engrained in our blood.
Why do you even want to defend an empire?
Most history textbooks barely mention Finland at all. They will often not even tell you they were Axis-aligned. You have to read historians writing specifically about this topic. No lazy bones.
Like I said, this does not excuse allying with Nazis. I am not arguing about whether everyday Finns might have had animosity towards Russia for a few years. I am talking about being the willing Northern front for Nazi Germany, deporting Jews to camps, rounding up tons of civilians and keeping them in starvation conditions.
This was not tribal, it was a nation state and the forces were political. Lapua members were the key Nazi collaborators and they were anticommunist ideologues long before the Winter War.
Please refrain from bullshit human nature arguments to justify Nazi collaboration.
What on earth are you talking about?
Most of history textbooks barely mention WWII by the same notion. I won’t argue I might know too little about the history of Finland. Although seeing how overwhelmingly current day Finns seem to oppose Russia and often mention the Winter War. It does seem that USSR was the worse of two evils there.
That’s the point. They had a choise. Either side with the Allies and hence USSR (which fucked them up) or ally with Germany. It was an obvious only choise for them.
The point is that tribal “us vs them” is just common. Same goes with countries. It depends if the group has a common identity.
False understanding of your stance on my part. Sorry for that. I thought you’re defending the current day Russian state.
Is it your experience that most people are historically informed as opposed to moved to adopt narratives by dominant forces? Finns have been doing historical revisionism on their alignment with Nazis since the 1940s. You need to have better logic than, “well most Finns say so”.
The Finnish police state was already fascist-aligned before the Winter War. You are just making things up and pretending it is history. It is possible to actually know things, but you have to be humble and actually read. Your imagination is not a history book.
I already addressed this. You can respond to what I said or ignore it entirely but I won’t be entertaining it further if you are going to cherry pick.
The current day Russian state is also not an empire. Again, what on earth are you talking about?
You keep clinging on little details. Russia is an empire due to how many smaller nations were conquered to the east. Just like USA is an Empire etc. Current rebranding doesn’t change the fact.
Fuck ton of countries were fascist just before and during WWII. It’s not a serious argument to make here. Fascism is just getting to power without democratic means.
And for the Finns. I honestly feel sad for you, if you believe there is a conspiracy theory that managed to brainwash an entire nation.
Those “little details” are the core facts in contradiction of your claims.
The Russian Empire did so. The Soviets and RF did not. Though if we are speaking of conquering nations, the US certainly did so, and remains the same political entity it did during its genocides of indigenous Americans. The transitions to the USSR and the RF were in no way trivial, it was not just some rebranding. Both were cataclysmic.
A handful of European countries were fascist around WWII. It is of course a basic fact and remains a deep stain. Please do your best to not normalize Nazi collaboration.
That is not what fascism is at all. Not even under erroneous liberal definitions.
False historical narratives do not require grand conspiracy theories. Just the very normal and common process of manufacturing consent.
Just beause Russian Empire rebranded itself it ia still basically the same size with the same subjugated people. The same yakut people are still subjugated. The cataclysmic event you’re talking about is workers revolt. The other is the collapse where quite a bit of countries at least managed to escape. All we can hope is for the fall of russia and for other cultures to emerge.
Here is the common definition: Fascism - A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
Even if you have 2 fascist countries, their goals and decisions are and usually is different.
And for consent. Look at bloody linux distros. Even if people actually want consent, it is basically impossible to achieve. Every expert will interpret it differently and you will have multiple narratives.
I addressed this in my previous comment. If you’re not going to even read and respond to what I sau, what are we doing here?
Good example. The Yakut people were conquered and annexed by the Russian Empire and many were forced into diaspora. The USSR created a Yakut autonomous region and gave them far more control over their own fates and lands. The RF has done very little other than the usual capitalist exploitation of resources. Three unique stories and three different experiences.
A revolution and creation of a new state premised on substantial regional autonomy and protection for local cultures. Ukraine today owes its entire national existence to Lenin’s insistence on promoting Ukrainian national identity and degrees of autonomy and cultural protections.
A collapse due to capitakist takeover, a time period where the country was subjected to “shock therapy” and dissolved / split against the will of its people. Tens of millions died due to the sudden deprivations. That is the doing of your Western powers whose lines you are echoing
Please refrain from racism.
Yeah that’s not what you said before. Can you spot the differences? Though of course to understand fascism you will need to learn history and politics, not just Google “fascism definition”.
Given that you don’t know what fascism is, why are you confidently announcing generalizations about it? In order to have correct ideas and be helpful to others, it is important to have humility.
You did not understand my reference.
Ukraine had a national identity before Lenin, tho. Although the dude is/was ahead of it’s time. And the social idealism that follows looks pretty neat. Sadly he quickly died and another fella came to power. Usually when people bash USSR they bash Stalin’s regime. It’s far from socialist ideals. You shouldn’t mix it up and just nitpick what you like.
If people are subjugated and still remain under democratic rule, they can still be under repression, due to voting majority. It’s the same reason why Israel fears giving the vote access to palestinians.
You can try to follow Nazi fascism idea of fascism by following history notebooks. But it will get us nowhere. Without common definition that we have. Since for example Lithuania had a president which was with dictatorial levels of power during the time. He was not aligned with Nazi Germany. What kind of word would you use to describe the rule? There are reasons why fascism is defined like it is.
And dude, you can’t be racist against a country. You and I operate with completely different definitions. I doubt we’ll come to a conclusion. Would love to discuss it next to a beer, since it’s fascinating to find these so wildly difderent ideas. How do you even get to a point where you know so much but manage to draw completely different conclusions.
Ukrainians aren’t russian. Their language is different. Their culture is drastically different. Damn even regions inside Ukraine could count as different cultures.
For the split. It happened quite recently. I do recommend talking to people why they split and what was the common ideas on the streets back then from people who lived there. There were massive forced mixing in of Russians in those countries. Those people are usually the ones that still find as “it was better back then”.
TZD
It was suppressed and the language was dying out in written form.
It was Stalin’s USSR that transformed from a quasi-feudal backwater into a superpower that defeated the Nazis. It did so following Marxist-Leninist principals, which is to say, the development of Marxism based on the Bolsheviks’ contributions - they seized the reins of capital and directed them to develop productive forces at a lightning pace and in a way that is never an option for imperialized countries. They ended famines, electrified the country, built rail at a scale that horrified and surprised the Nazi invasers, who remarked that little of it was on their mapsnfrom just a few years ago. And it did this under sanctions and attempted isolation by the major powers, the European capitalist forces that capitulated to the fascists, refused pacts with the USSR to build an alliance against the fascists, as they hoped they would turn east and deal with their red problem.
You should educate yourself about the USSR.
This can happen without voting as well and it is not inherently good or bad, relative to circumstances. We oppress murderers in one form or another. The impetus for thatbis understandable. Some have oppressed ethnic minorities for land grabs. That is not acceptable. Revolution requires oppression, you have to undo the order against which you are revolting. It does not immediately disappear just because you seized the army or run the newspapers.
Israel oppresses Palestinians because it seeks to steal their land and they know that Palestinians will oppose them in this. Israel is not an example of “tyranny of the majority” and it is not democratic. It is an ethnic supremaxist settler colonial apartheid state and should be destroyed as such.
That will get you the whole way. You must read history to understand this historical reference. No shortcuts!
Lithuania’s president was a racist, antisemitic anticommunist liberal nationalists that dabbled a bit with fascists. Liberals have had all of the qualities of fascists over time and done the same kinds of deeds on a much greater scale. This is why you have to read history. If you just go by simple modern definitions, they will tell you that liberals are all about personal freedoms and equality. They will neglect to mention that liberals were the most brutal and racist colonizers and ethnic supremacists and misogynists and that this might pose a problem for their definition. They become an infinite No True Scotsman, defined in a way that means they never committed any crimes and it may be that, per their logic, no liberal has ever truly existed.
Fascists are really just a form of reactionary liberals that emerged out of inter-imperialist struggle after World War I. The fallout of WWI led to various nationalist and separatist movements in Europe as well as attempts to claim imperialist power. In particular, fascism rose most strongly in those places where conditions were degrading and communists were organizing for revolution. Fascists presented a triangulating position. They criticized the problems of capitalism by coopting socialist phrases but sought, in reallobersl simply organize capitalism into a nationalist form that had ambitions for Imperialism of their own. They built on the “fallen nation that must return to glory”, a sentiment that could only resonate among people living in a country losing its status and among degrading conditions. They offered scapegoats playing on old forms of racism. Antisemitism, anti-Roma, Anti-Russian, many more. And most importantly, they opposed the communists, which is why they were so well-funded by capitalists and found friends among liberals. Fascists found their most committed and prominent recruits from the petty bourgeoisie and their sons, an inherently liberal
I mean, if my country suffered through the Winter War, I’d consider that a very rational fear.
I’m sure Jews are pretty nervous around German hyper-nationalists too.
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It’s actually just my analysis but okay
Compliance with sanctions from the US and EU IIRC
Sanctions apply on OS development?
I dont know ennough on the topic, does this ecen check out?
As they said in the article, they are just listening to their lawyers. I would assume those lawyers are correct.
That's a generic fuck you, I don't need to explain myself.
Which does make me question their reasoning even more tbh
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Lawyers tend to be honest to the people they’re being paid by.
Lawyers will also usually advice the safer option. Even if your actions are legal, if its boarderline enough you have to defend your actions in court, its expensive and risky.
Lawyers will be honest or dishonest, just depending on what’s best for the person who is paying them. Their jobs are dependent on getting good outcomes for their clients, so they can most definitely be trusted if you are the one paying them.
Lawyer slander is so fucking stupid. Would you not want a lawyer on your side if it was your ass on the line? A lawyer’s job isn’t to judge wrong or right. It’s to convince a judge or jury of one’s innocence. A lawyer has to defend the morally fucked the same as they do the innocent. You can’t have one without the other.
I know this isn’t a criminal proceeding or anything of the sort but I sense that’s what the comment was referring to.
Yes they do. See the long-standing debate over the ban to export crypto algorithms to Iran.
Yes, the sanctions against Russia, as mentioned by Linus. The change also said the maintainers “can come back in the future if sufficient documentation is provided”.
My guess is that the Linux Foundation must ensure that none of the people they work with are in any way associated with any organisation, person or activity on the sanctions list. And that they preemptively removed all maintainers that might risk violating the sanctions while they work with them to establish whether they might be covered by the sanctions or not.
Regardless of what you or they think of the sanctions, they are the law, and I don’t think anyone wants the Linux Foundation to have to spend their money on lawyers and fines because they had a maintainer who also worked on a research project funded by a sanctioned entity. (If that is how it works, IANAL)
Underrated comment.
Yeah, it seems like they genuinely are just trying to be compliant with the law. I do think the “anyone who has concerns about this is a Russian troll” thing is obnoxious though, knowing of the existence of sanctions doesn’t mean we’re all lawyers who know the requirements here for open source projects.
The massive negative outcry over this fairly uninteresting change certainly seems oddly overblown, almost as if there are parties trying to turn it into a big political issue to paint Russia as a victim. But idk, nerds freak out over stuff all the time completely on their own.
Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I think the Linux Foundation has a hard time being clear on the matter because it just isn’t clear. These are new laws and a global open source cooperation run by a non-profit is likely a corner case that the lawmakers did not think about at all when making them.
Idk, there’s probably some of that but until today with the clarification that the bans are happening from a list of employers they’re required not to work with, things were pretty unclear and I don’t think it was unreasonable to assume they were going beyond what was required…especially with Linus’ response being pretty tone deaf given the information critics had. People were angry what seemed like random Russian citizens were being targeted and Linus responded angrily as if we all already knew their employers were on a list despite it not being reported yet.
It’s not a huge deal but Linus is just not very good at handling this kind of thing. Nerds should have assumed there was more behind the scenes and given the benefit of the doubt, though.
OK, that’s the first reasonable explanation I’ve come across. I wish
GregLinus didn’t reply in that kind of “angry” tone, because for some of us it’s not that obvious.Reuters reports:
Since Linus is Finnish, this literally hits home for him, hence (probably) his reaction.
Yes, but this action sounds as effective against Russian espionage as burning any clothes that has red blue and white in them.
Scratched liberals abound. It takes very liyyl3 for them to be racist and chauvinist.
Yes. What does “liberals” mean exactly?
It means supporters of the dominant ideology if capitalism, just like it has always meant.
Not at all true. If you’re referencing US ideologies of Capitalism, holy shit are you wrong and read the wrong Wikipedia.
In fact, the Democrats since the 60’s have run campaigns WAY against the threat of late-stage Capitalism. Republicans are the pro-capitalist party in the sense they want to privatize everything and help their friends, and also “deregulate” anything and everything.
These are anti-capitalist ideas.
Come on back with some more Wiki links, good buddy.
Dubliette is referring to the thought-terminating cliché that every major US party doesn't want to abolish capitalism (the economic system centered around capital, private ownership, etc.), ergo we're all liberals.
Lolbye
I dunno how you can terminate a thought that never began
There’s no argument, it’s the definition of the word. Why do you assume there should be argument around the normal usage of a word?
because for some reason, torvalds is bad now because he is a capitalist while nearly everyone is a capitalist. that’s the argument made.
A capitalist is someone who owns capital, not someone who supports capitalism. A liberal is someone who supports capitalism. I don’t think Linus is a liberal, given that he’s the Linux guy. But he’s obviously a capitalist, and that’s okay, that’s something you should strive towards if you live under capitalism, even if ideologically you oppose capitalism.
I am quite correct, though I am referring to liberalism in the general internationa sense. This is what liberalism always has been. You must understand it as what it is and has done, not what it tells you it is meant to be. As Stafford Beer said, it makes no sense to think that the purpose of something is what it consistently fails to do. The liberalism of the enlightenment had in its right hand brutal, racist colonial exploitation and in its left a ruthless industrial revolution chaining the people to factories and removing them from all commond and property. It is a product of capitalism itself.
The Democrats are a capitalist party and always have been. They do not work against capitalism at all, they support it and protect it. There is really such thing as late-stage capitalism, it is just capitalism developing over time, retaining most of its qualities but taking on new angles. Buy if it does mean anything, it means neoliberalism wrought by financialization, and that is Democrats’ main political base. It’s their main thing, especially as an export.
Democrats also do this they just tell you it is efficiency and “public-private partnerships” and “a generous endowment to a public institution” (that they can now defund). The charter school movement is largely Democrats, for example. They simply have different factions on their chopping block, different groups to pander to.
What ideas are anti-capitalist? I didn’t see any.
No thanks. Read the political philosophers of the enlightenment, colonialism, industrialization and proletarianizatikn, the liberal revolutions in Europe, and who emerged to identify themselves as anti-liberal once those revolutions established their ideologies as mainstream, namely monarchists, fascists, socialists, and anarchists. You cannot gain a political education through Wikipedia, it is a Cliffs Notes approach to social topics often written by often incorrect or heavily propagandized (or propagandist!) People, including literal Nazi apologists.
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Bruh what world are you living in lmao. Obama reached to bankers uncaringly tanking the global economy by giving them money to do with as they wished (and, as always, they wished to give themselves a bonus).
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Maybe they can contribute to RedStar instead. Is best os for great compute.
Wutlol
Linux is the kernel, not the OS. RedStar uses Linux as the kernel.
I understand, thank you. My statement kind of assumes north korea is maintaining a fork of the kernel they patch and customize. It also implies NK is one of the few organizations that would accept russian contributions into their fork, given the somewhat limited number of linux projects operating outside of the sanctions.
Huh. Lot of people Russian’ to conclusions in this thread.
Sorry.
Ok, dad.
Shhh. Let Linus Finnish.
Sorry for liking it.
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???
We couped Ukraine in 2014 and their CIA, the SBU is committing acts of terrorism against Russia on at least a bi-weekly basis. Also, they’ve killed and continue to kill tens of thousands of civilians in the independent republics, for some reason.
The idea that Russia invaded Ukraine for no reason is absolutely brain dead
How’s that Kool aid taste? You’re not even worth debating, it’s clear you’re a lost cause. Keep believing this, and let the rage build inside you.
remindme! 20 years, when mainstream media finally admits it because it doesn’t matter anymore.
Oh wait, they already admitted it.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/b42deb04-c179-46b4-bb73-023692ece21f.jpeg">
The only bots here are the alt accounts downvoting coolusername.
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Even if I assume the truth of that statement, do you not care about the deaths of Ukrainian civilians?
My understanding is that Ukraine’s parliament (Rada) removed Yanukovych from his position as president. That seems fair to me. Many countries, including the US, have legal processes for removing their leaders.
Banning Israeli contributers too?
No, it’s not like Israel is attacking its neighbors. It doesn’t, does it?
ALL of them? Not at once. Usually.
They would never!
It’s not about punishing Russia, is admit preventing vulnerability to a country that has an ongoing effort to compromise infosec.
Not at all saying Israel doesn’t suck balls right now.
Any confirmation, that these specific maintainers were compromising something?
Unironically I would support it
I would never. The idea that any person should be disbarred from contributing to FOSS due to the actions of their government, is incredibly exclusionary. Linus is acting as much like a toddler as daddy USA is.
The west is sanctioning Russia because their daddy US tells them to. Similarly they don’t sanction Israel because of daddy.
so are we okay with banning development time donated to foss because of nationality?
are these people found to support heinous shit or is this just wartime shenanigans?
Dude is Finnish, from his own mouth, it’s just normal racism against an aggressive imperial, like how people hate the us
Edit: like how people from lemmy.ml hate Americans, if that wasn’t clear
finland has pretty bad climate-change-exploitation-fucking-over-the-third-world dealings in my country, despite enforcing seemingly very good stuff inside their own borders so meh, id argue they aint close to the victims they make out to be. some would argue that as a consequence for having a strong socialist influence.
i have mixed feelings about them as a country, but i recognize there are plenty of good (and even well known good) people on there because of the aforementioned good stuff, linus included. for different but not that dissimilar reasons i think contemporary russian citizens should not be blanket banned from helping everyone out.
Which country is that, and what dealings?
brazil, and they do some shady stuff in the amazon. mainly fuck you extrativism.
Can you find any links where one can read about this?
If Finland is wasting tax payer money to something shady, it should be brought to the local media.
heres one i found with a quick google.
this one is about southeast/northeast brazil, but the finnish are involved in aggressive extractivism in northwest brazil (amazon rainforest) too, and i think its even worse over there. you will dig up pretty horrible things if you do some research on it. about most of the western 1st world countries tbh.
…wikipedia.org/…/East_Karelian_concentration_camp…
As if Finish people had any moral ground here
yeah i aint putting my ass on the line for that country, thats for sure.
It’s “for any county” to me. Nationalism is a cancer
Sure nice of Russia to look after only the breeding stock. Seems some things never change.
Wow, some real clown behavior from Linus.
I was expecting an adequate response, but this… I’ll just say I’m very disappointed.
Quote taken completely out of context.
The context is that a partial descendant of an enemy species (Romulans) was the victim of a witch hunt. He was half human and a starfleet officer. He had lived in the federation his whole life.
A real world equivalent example to that would be banning Americans with Russian ancestry that were born in America and lived in America their whole lives from contributing.
That is not what’s happening here. You are arguing in bad faith. Picard would be perfectly fine with preventing Romulans in the Romulan Empire from accessing/modifying sensitive technology.
How does this prevent the Russians from accessing sensitive technology? Oh it doesn’t! It just excludes them from contributing to Linux, not from using it.
Accusing others from “arguing in bad faith” are we?
I don’t give a shit about that. OP misused a Picard quote. Completely unacceptable.
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the comments on the article started off pretty good but pretty quickly devolved into a cancerous combination of NAFO and Hasbara.
Linus has never been the best communicator, but he usually speaks the truth. But this is just bonkers and wrong. Not everyone living in Russia has “ties with Russia” other than “they were born there”. If this is about sanctions, he could have still just told them that. But instead he just disrespected contributors completely and then double down in it by being xenophobic.
I don’t understand how sanctions can impact free software, tbh, what’s free about this? This leaves a weird taste, I have to admit.
Linux foundation is a US company, and he’s a EU citizen and there’s companies that those devs where employed that are under sanction , hot that hard to understand
He’s also been a US citizen since 2010.
It’s really disappointing seeing Russian contributors being disrespected like this, the regime that rules Russia wasn’t entirely their fault, and allegiance, nationality, and ethnicity are all clearly different things
Also, wouldn’t a state sponsored Russian hacker pretend to be from the US or something anyway? No way they’d contribute code as a Russian, that’d just increase others’ suspicion
I agree with Linus a lot too but I strongly disagree here. I hope he’s just being made to say this because of government policies
And the most dangerous part here is the whole rethoric of “if you disagree, you are a Russian shill”.
At this point it’s the Russians peoples fault.
could you elaborate on why?
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Yup. If you don’t want to “mysteriously fall from a window,” you do what they say.
I agree 100% with Linus here
[Citation needed]
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/ff56ef80-a375-433b-85fb-99a27ac92a82.jpeg">
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Man, I wish he’d leave the communication to someone else. He is so, so bad at it. And this isn’t the first time
The way he attacks critics puts himself in a bad light. But much more importantly, I read this and am still unsure if he has administrative/legal reason, security reasons or political reasons…
If I’d work in Russian propaganda, I’d love this so much. Hope this will not cause disruption in the community.
It is inherently disruptive. And “knowing” Linus, if he apologizes for the communication, it won’t come soon enough.
Lol, ml. users getting wild in the comments
I’d really like to see the criteria for delisting people, though. As Russia is not the only one waging wars, there are worse countries out there. I guess it all boils down to Linus being from Finland.
Yeah the kernel might end up being forked if this shit keeps going. Sanctions affecting open source software like this was not something I expected…
Nah. If anything, USian and non-Russian companies will add one or two more devs to their efforts to take up the slack. Linux is the bedrock of their revenue streams.
There may be worse countries, but rest of the word is not in a proxy war with them.
The US and EU governments have the criteria for sanctions available.
An update:
(direct link)
That sounds like an advice, not something official? Also why is an open source project affected by US sanctions? It’s not an US open source project, or is it?
Linux Foundation (of which Linus is an employee) is an US entity. RISC-V International foresaw this and chose to incorporate in Switzerland.
But does it mean they own Linux? They list (support I guess) a lot of projects, including RISC-V. BTW smart move from RISC-V
The Linux kernel (the code) is open-source. Linux Foundation (the people who write said code) is headquartered in the US. The US can decide what Linux Foundation can and cannot do, who works there, etc. They can’t control who uses the code.
One of the worst news I’ve read lately.
Why aren’t Israeli maintainers removed? Oh because linux is basically owned by IBM now.
The linux kernel isn’t free anymore. It’s open source, but not free.
I understand where this comes from, he is finnish but this is pretty unprofessional.
Linus unprofessional?! Surely you jest!!
Free as in… obeys US foreign policy
I’m pretty sure not just the US wants Russia sanctioned to the oblivion. All of the Europe that borders Russia wants that. Now why would it be like that?
It makes no sense to discuss here.They probably follow Russia’s narrative of Europe being a puppet of the US.
In the article, Linus explicitly said that it’s not just a US thing:
That’s more like his opinion or a post facto justification. Turns out it is a US thing.
So to get back, you have to basically prove that you have no relations with OFAC SDN companies.
This update is from lwn.net/Articles/995186/
Shame to see this shit from torvalds
He’s gonna ban american and “israeli” maintainers too then, I guess?
Why? There aren’t any sanctions for them in Finland?
Linus said it was to prevent security backdoors.
It can be two things.
Everyone who disagrees with me is a paid russian troll of course. Nobody would oppose blacklisting people based on nothing but their nationality unless they were getting paid for it.
I guess it’s difficult to otherwise explain the position you have? It’s not like people face criminal charges in Russia just for speaking against it. It’s easy to see how the state would want to introduce backdoors to most western systems.
It’s extremely sad that a lot of good Russians get swooped in this. But even abroad their lives are in danger to fight the state.
I doubt if someone wants to introduce a backdoor, they would do that with a russian mailing address. People removed were open and transparent about their nationalities which means there is even less chance them being bad actors than some random guy pretending to be American.
Aren’t the removed commiters with direct access to the kernel? It’s not like it’s some rando that makes pull requests.
I think you’re making up a world in your head. Who are these “lots” of “good” Russians who are abroad and whose lives are in realistically danger of state assassination? Not that it has never happened, but you’re blowing things out of proportion. Probably Russia does it at a scale roughly similar to the US.
My friend, they poisoned people in the UK with a fucking nerve agent. They are so brazen and open about people being killed for not doing that the Kremlin tells them.
They have purposely made a meme out of the “suspiciously fell from window” thing, because they want people to know exactly what happens and why.
Yes, they did. How often is that happening? Proportion.
We’re not talking about taking out former spies in foreign, sovereign nations you dolt. I used that as an example to show just how brazen and open they are about this stuff. Using such a dangerous method, on foreign soil, is basically unheard of.
If you actually want to talk about frequency, we should be looking at the defenestration cases…
This shit is happening so frequently that there are several wiki pages dedicated to listing them:
en.wikipedia.org/…/Suspicious_deaths_of_notable_R…
Scroll down to “see also” for a long list of related articles about the Russian government assassinating citizens and low-level bureaucrats.
Assuming you actually give a shit
EDIT: apparently Lemmy markdown doesn’t like the link. For anyone who can’t figure out why it’s not working, or for some weird reason thinks I would make up a wiki page with a title that specific:
Suspicious deaths of notable Russians in 2022–2024
And, again, after checking out the main article, take a look at the “see also” section.
In any case, the defenestrations I’ve heard of have been within Russia, not outside it.
Not unheard of. US drone strikes on US citizens is a no-less dangerous a method.
It’s almost as if the markdown on Lemmy changed the text of the link so it’s not valid.
And you couldn’t take the 3 second to fix it, and then actually learn something.
Well done.
You also seem confused about what we are even talking about. We are referring to software developers WITHIN RUSSIA. So the risk of defenestration is very real. Again, to repeat myself, I only brought up Russia using chemical warfare on foreign soil as an example to show how open and brazen they are.
I edited the original comment with a fixed link if you actually care
Nerve agents compared to drone strikes look humane and civilized.
Disagree. Chemical warfare is an entirely different beast.
We’re talking about poisoning a single person not a gas cloud. Poisoning a single person vs drone striking a wedding.
Very nice link that not only does not have a list of names but also fairly explicitly explains that it is not talking about Americans killing Americans.
I am not going to spend more than 30 seconds on it but here is the first list of “lots” of Russians that are believed to have been assassinated by their own government.
…wikipedia.org/…/Suspicious_deaths_of_notable_Rus…
Despite your personal attacks, the trivially discoverable facts are not on your side.
I used Wikipedia since you apparently find it credible.
My favourite “suicide” of a notable Russian in the last couple of years was the one that had a suicide note signed by “illegible signature” ( what it actually said ). I guess the FSB did not totally understand the instructions.
Indeed A LOT of falling out of windows. Quite a bit of poisoning as well. These are the successful ones. How about that time they poisoned the entire Ukrainian peace team including the owner of the Chelsea Football Club?
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That’s true, as he said just use your brain, Russia is under sanctions he literally said that, so Russian troll is a actually very accuracy
“The imperial core is sanctioning Russia therefore you are a Russian troll.” Impeccable logic.
Hm i never coded a line in my life, but i always wondered so honest question to the experts here: is it realistic that someone codes security back doors so hidden in other bad or wrong documented code, that nobody recognizes it in OSS community? I mean code is getting more complicated and specialized, dont you need more and more human resources (more than one person and hopefully not all with a bad intention) to check over that code? If im correct you shouldnt let more code into your software than the community is able to check an validate several times… Doesnt mean it has to be russians that need to be excluded idk
There will be a million security issues across all OSS. Some of it will be intentional; if so definitely don’t expect it to be a “findable” back door. It will be a set of vulnerabilities across several projects, that when combined allow the perpetrators privilege-escalations or a known path through a security system. Removing “Russians” from contribution doesn’t actually stop that, everyone can use a VPN and work as an American or whatever, but it does send a signal.
Yes, not only is it realistic, it has actually happened. It’s easier to write code than understand it. Even when reviewing code, you miss more or less obvious issues. Not to mention intentional vulnerabilities that can be sneaked in over multiple commits and time span long enough to make reviewers forget the larger context.
Interesting answers, thanks!
This might not be super useful if you don’t write code but I always found the contest submissions fun to read and try to figure out for the www.underhanded-c.org contest.
They break down and explain the runner up and finalist for each year and how the attack works. It’s usually something very subtle that most people wouldn’t catch.
fremdscham++😬As a finn, I understand that there are probably legal reasons for doing this.
I just wish they would be transparent and share those reasons with us. The Linux kernel is certainly not the only free software project that is impacted, if this comes straight from EU/US sanctions. Maintainers of other projects have a lot of interest in what is happening.
Transparency is also important because if EU/US policy/sanctions are causing issues for free software projects, then that discussion needs to be public, so that there is a chance to amend the policies if necessary.
Politics should not be on FOSS development.
That is hardcore wishful thinking, the nature by which critical digital infrastructure is developed and maintained is of keen importance to political systems everywhere. This situation was inevitable with the ongoing escalation of war
That’s why the “should be” I guess, though that’s not to say there aren’t idiots (right in this thread too) actually shilling for this.
If current open source licenses still have flaws like this, we’re gonna need new ones.
FOSS is inherently political though, but I guess you mean country vs country politics moreso than ideological politics.
It has to be there, because politics is connected with lawmaking, and open source software is dependent on laws.
A lot of people like to say that politics isn’t in their life or that they keep politics out of their life, but the reality is that’s just not true. The rules that govern society affect you, always, either with or without your input, either with or without your acknowledgment.
You’re probably trying to say that we should keep pointless politicking out of open source software, and I agree, but that’s going to come down to personal definitions of pointlessness.
The F in FOSS stands for politics
The legal reasons was because the Linux Foundation is based in the USA and the targeted devs worked for companies explicitly sanctioned by the USA. Linus said he knew and trusted the devs he was forced to delist.
The Linux Foundation needs to relocate to some stable neutral country like Switzerland.
Switzerland is controlled by the US
Suggest a country then
He alludes to sanctions being a factor but never clarifies on advice from his lawyers. ngl I don’t like the look of it just from a transparency perspective.
Probably because the advice in question was lengthy and technical (subtype: laws and legality), and the short form had the disclaimer "Please don’t publish the short form because it’s too much like giving legal advice.) Something similar happened back in 2012 with Project Byzantium, when we were consulting with the EFF with respect to having cryptographic libraries included in the distro.
We’re gonna start seeing large open source communities start to break into smaller ones because of sanctions from now aren’t we?
This sets such a bad precedent…
The bad precedent was starting a war
Yeah I’m sure the maintainers are in talks with Putin directly
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CIA could do that too.
Ah yes. The Finnish CIA.
They have one?
Dunno. But this post is about Linus Torwalds booting Russians from an open source project due to their association with a warmongering regime. It’s nothing to do with the US.
Are there no American or Israeli maintainers?
Is the country of Linus beholden to sanctioning those countries?
Not sure but they should
You seriously think that the US are not warmongering?
My point was, that your enemy might be in your ranks. Some of your dotzend secret services might have other goals than the interests of the common people. It’s rarely only black and white.
Btw, didn’t they ask Linus to include a backdoor once already?
Linux isn’t a sovereign nation. This isn’t difficult.
Arguably, ITAR set the precedent in the 1990’s during the crypto wars. USians used to have to travel to Canada to work on cryptographic code in OpenBSD because their commits couldn’t legally be exported.
You don’t need sanctions. I’ve seen you petty fucks fork projects over a font.
They’ll fight over fonts meanwhile WordPress is on fire and where are the forks?
Or a name
BringFork out the GIMP!gimp-qt
:3
This article gives a good discussion about a potential coming East/West political split in the world of FOSS.
thenewstack.io/avoiding-a-geopolitical-open-sourc…
Based Linus as always
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Hey - an explanation. Who’da’thunk it?
www.phoronix.com/…/Linux-Compliance-Requirements
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are the tankies in the room with us right now
Lemmy was built by communists. you would be better served by going back to Reddit.
Shit like this is why I use the most generic yankee cowboy aliases online.
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