autotldr@lemmings.world
on 11 Jun 2024 09:20
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This is the best summary I could come up with:
Oracle has started to dispatch Java audit letters to Fortune 200 companies for the first time, according to one licensing expert.
But industry experts have pointed out that businesses with limited Java use would have to license the software per employee under the latest model, a dramatic shift from the one previously offered by Oracle.
But that has changed in recent months, according to Craig Guarente, founder and CEO of Palisade Compliance, an independent Oracle licensing advisory company.
Guarente was speaking on a webinar hosted by Azul, which helps organizations move away from Oracle Java to open source alternatives.
In February 2023, Gartner warned that Oracle “actively targets organizations” on Java compliance following the introduction of new contractual terms for the code.
In July last year, The Register revealed Oracle was sending unsolicited emails to businesses offering to discuss Java subscription deals, seemingly in an effort to extract information that could be to its benefit in future license negotiations.
The original article contains 555 words, the summary contains 159 words. Saved 71%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
tourist@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 09:30
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auditors gonna make absolute bank from bribes
brbposting@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Jun 2024 12:59
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Is there some general history that makes you think that or more specific or just a gut feel?
BlackEco@lemmy.blackeco.com
on 11 Jun 2024 09:52
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Way to push Fortune 200 companies towards Azul, Adoptium, Correto and other alternative Java distributions, Oracle!
Arghblarg@lemmy.ca
on 11 Jun 2024 10:08
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Can Oracle kill javascript as well, please? Please?
Yeah, for a short time there the word ‘java’ was very ‘in’. Marketing hipsters at the time wanted to use it in everything, just like the word ‘AI’ now.
BeigeAgenda@lemmy.ca
on 11 Jun 2024 10:45
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It acquired its current name in 1994, when the European Computer Manufacturers Association (ECMA) changed its name to reflect the organization’s global reach and activities. As a consequence, the name is no longer considered an acronym and no longer uses full capitalization.
0x0@programming.dev
on 11 Jun 2024 11:15
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Java is to Javascript what car is to carpet or somesuch
Sonotsugipaa@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 11 Jun 2024 18:34
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Why would a car have a pet?
Aatube@kbin.melroy.org
on 13 Jun 2024 18:27
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I'd say it's as boat is to airplane
demizerone@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 15:38
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You can bet your bottom dollar Oracle will find a way if it is profitable.
redcalcium@lemmy.institute
on 11 Jun 2024 10:15
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Why would anyone recommend their company to use Oracle stuff these days? Oracle should give kickbacks to people that recommend to use Oracle Database, Java, or VirtualBox in their company so they’ll keep at it /s
figjam@midwest.social
on 11 Jun 2024 10:25
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Oracle databases are not allowed to run in the Google cloud because of ceo drama
hydroptic@sopuli.xyz
on 11 Jun 2024 10:19
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It feels like actual innovation in all sectors has slowed to a crawl, and corporations – especially the ones run by MBA parasites – are concentrating more and more on just squeezing money out of people with various bullshit tactics, while at the same time thinning their workforce (naturally the MBAs are never under threat, though)
Oracle was never really innovative on a technical level , it’s first and foremost a company focused on selling licenses, and they’re really innovative in that regard but if you fall for that as a company, I have no pity, this is their whole schtick.
Big companies in general are often rather conservative in nature while innovation happens on smaller scale and later expands.
The big problem is rather that a lot of innovation has been absorbed by the big companies via buyouts, especially when money was cheap to borrow. Innovation bears risk, buying an established solution and milking existing users much less so.
I don’t think the users are without blame. A lot of people ignore the red flags when a solution is just convenient enough (we need the commercial support / this exactly covers our use case so we don’t have to hire someone to adapt it / …) and the vendor then cashes out when moving away from his solution would be really expensive.
I think there’s still a lot of innovation lately, but a lot people are just looking for the next big thing that does everything it feels like.
pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 11 Jun 2024 12:47
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I was a developer at Oracle. We got handed down sales goals. ??? It was a running joke in our org that oracle is a sales company and we just scramble to make what they’re selling. When I left half our org had been laid off or left. Only got two raises in the 5 years I was there. Not worth.
hydroptic@sopuli.xyz
on 11 Jun 2024 13:11
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The big problem is rather that a lot of innovation has been absorbed by the big companies via buyouts
Which ultimately does seem to lead to innovation slowing down. The big players buy out any potential smaller competitors, and very often just outright kill the products / services they inherited in the acquisition.
bamfic@lemmy.world
on 12 Jun 2024 04:26
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oracle did not develop java. it was developed at sun, which oracle then bought
Alright, not that I wrote or implied that anywhere… In fact Java was probably the whole reason Oracle bought Sun to gain leverage over Android. Which fits very much into what I wrote - one company innovates, another one buys them to squeeze users (Google wasn’t a customer of Sun, they used their own implementation which wasn’t exactly Java but also not exactly anything else). Just that Sun by all means wasn’t a small company, I mean they controlled almost a full stack with their own processors (SPARC), workstations and servers (Blade was somewhat famous), an operating system with Solaris (and if you want to count it even JavaOS) and Java on top of those, and they contributed a lot of technology like NFS, ZFS (license discussions aside). On the other hand, when they bought someone, the product wasn’t just milked to death, but actually integrated into their stack and continued to be developed in the open.
Shame it turned out that way, I guess Sun was a bit overleveraged with how much they did vs. how much they made from it. And to think that Oracle paid less than a fifth than what Twitter sold for later for all of that technology to go to waste, just for a chance to sue Google… But we long as suits continue to license their stuff because they have cool advertisements at airports, this will keep going.
NostraDavid@programming.dev
on 12 Jun 2024 10:00
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Oracle was never really innovative on a technical level
Even their RDBMS and SQL was copied from ideas that came from IBM. And I recall either E. F. Codd or one of the SQL guys making a remark about Oracle’s less-than-saviour sales tactics, even back in the 90s.
some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org
on 11 Jun 2024 22:03
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We’re at the end-times for western capitalism, where rent-seeking has become the primary driver of markets. It’s happening all around us.
0x0@programming.dev
on 11 Jun 2024 11:13
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Corpos nagging corpos? I’ll get the popcorn.
paf0@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 11:13
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This is how Oracle finally kills Java. I stopped working with Java many years ago and firmly believe that no developer should tie themselves to this fuckery. Find a new job before it’s too late.
masterplan79th@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 11:54
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This is only very indirectly related to Java as a whole.
the reference implementation of the jvm is open source and managed by a coalition of companies under a GPL license, the OpenJDK.
Oracle has its own set of enhancements to the reference jvm that handle things like just-in-time compilation and garbage collection differently and have some additional flags that allow for more fine-grained tweaking of certain features.
There are many other companies that do the same.
Oracle only started doing this in 2019 so many companies who were running Java before this used the Oracle JVM out of convenience, even if they weren’t going to use the tweaked parts. So everyone switched to another implementation, OpenJDK, Amazon Coretto, Eclipse J9 or some other available JRE/JDK.
In 2023 Oracle cracked down harder trying to get people to pay for licenses and changed their terms such that any company with even 1 employee using an Oracle JVM had to pay for every employee in the company. ridiculous I know.
This is just more news about Oracle’s licensing crackdown and not about Java as a whole at all.
Think of it more like the Unity licensing change and you’re telling people to stop coding in C#.
paf0@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 12:03
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I’m aware of the jdk alternatives and I will never use any of them because Oracle might some day decide that they’re an IP violation like they did with Google’s Android. I’m sure you’ll tell me something about the licensing being different but that still will not matter because there is always the possibility that Oracle will change their mind and start messing with me for sport. The Java ecosystem is rotten from the top down because Oracle cannot be trusted.
atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Jun 2024 12:29
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OpenJDK is released under the GPL. That requires making any patents available for free to users.
They could theoretically change their mind and try some shit, but the GPL is hard to go “backsies” on.
Sorry, I have my own company, my choices matter, you should blame whomever made that choice for you.
It’s not necessarily cynicism if it’s based on previous patterns of behavior. Oracle reveals themselves to be run by bullies again and again and I choose to not put myself at risk. You do you.
atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Jun 2024 15:22
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It’s not necessarily cynicism if it’s based on previous patterns of behavior.
It’s exactly what it is because you’re ignoring facts that contradict your position because “I’ve been hurt before”. The OpenJDK license is currently the MOST permissive it’s ever been. And that was done by Oracle which is shocking to me.
The GPL is an old and well accepted license and there are lots of groups who will jump to defend it. And there are lots of companies backing the OpenJDK that aren’t Oracle. Oracle would need to fight Amazon, Microsoft, IBM (RedHat), the Eclipse Foundations, etc. if they wanted to change that.
You’re having the same conversation with me on multiple threads and it’s me who is thick? It seems like you’re personally insulted when someone does not choose the tech stack that you identify with. It’s a language, not a religion, you’re going to be ok. I have my reasons not to like it and you do not have to approve. Get over yourself.
kaffiene@lemmy.world
on 12 Jun 2024 06:57
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FUD
Zagorath@aussie.zone
on 11 Jun 2024 12:49
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Oracle might some day decide that they’re an IP violation like they did with Google’s Android
They lost that case. It went all the way to the US Supreme Court and set a binding precedent that an API re-implementation falls under the Fair Use doctrine. Maybe Oracle could try some excuse to say that OpenJDK is different enough from what Android did for that precedent to apply, but it would be a major uphill battle, and they know it.
paf0@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 12:53
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It was expensive for Google and fighting them would destroy most companies. It’s cheaper to avoid the ecosystem entirely.
Zagorath@aussie.zone
on 11 Jun 2024 14:32
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It was expensive for Google, but they’ve done the hard work of establishing the precedent. It’s much easier to fight when you have a strong binding precedent on your side.
I don’t have to fight if I just use something else. There is very little advantage to using Java when everything from .NET to Node to Ruby to Python are all super mature and have a similar amount of open source packages available. There might still be a question of performance and for that we have Go, Rust and elixir- not quite as mature but all still can do everything I need and then some.
As an added bonus, none of those frameworks have Larry Ellison lurking around the corner waiting to sue me if he decides to change the terms of license. Java is dead to me.
atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
on 12 Jun 2024 05:14
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.NET… You trust Microsoft over Oracle. Ridiculous.
Feel free to do you, I have told you this already. Seeing you’re unable to drop the conversation, when did Microsoft ever sue someone for using C#? I trust Microsoft far more than Oracle (reasons detailed in another comment). However, I do not run Microsoft software at my company at this time, other things work better for what I need.
atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
on 12 Jun 2024 14:46
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Give them a few years to change the rules. If their prior love of lawsuits is any indication they will do so soon.
atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
on 12 Jun 2024 17:45
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Same with Microsoft. The company harvesting personal information to feed to an AI.
atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
on 12 Jun 2024 17:51
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Do you see?? Do you see yet that you’re just now blindly defending a company that has been so anti-open source in its past? A company that has been found guilty of abusing a monopoly? Yet you’re defending them over another company that has also done terrible things??
You’re approach is so laughably black & white with no nuance that you can’t even see that I’m mocking it by attacking Microsoft with your same terrible logic.
Zagorath@aussie.zone
on 11 Jun 2024 14:35
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Oh I agree. I love C#. My uni taught most of its classes in Java, but my work has been mostly C#, and it’s a huge step up. It would be my choice 100% of the time if starting a new project where the decision is between those two. But if I were using Java via OpenJDK, I wouldn’t be afraid of a lawsuit; that’s the only point I wanted to make.
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca
on 11 Jun 2024 17:27
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I’m curious. Microsoft is in a similar position with its open-source-like work. It’s been great for PR but MS has a bad history with Open-Source and with its customers (1999-doj-vs-ms). It’s one of the very few companies so bad they were actually sued by the doj.
If you feel this way about Oracle, what’s your feeling toward Microsoft? Does it colour your use of c# or dot-net knowing that a company with a track record of rug-pulling and secretly thumbing the scale is still in control of the tools you choose to use?
C# is not my first choice but I did tolerate it the last time I worked a corporate job. MS seems committed to .NET core being open source and have never tried to rug pull C# or the .NET framework itself.
Also, I believe Microsoft’s incentives are different, and in a way that benefits me. For instance, they sell more Windows Server licenses because it’s easier for legacy shops to administrate (even though it can be done with nginx now). They also get more native software released for Windows, sell more Visual Studio Pro licenses and are able to steer people toward Azure DevOps and other Azure based cloud services.
Oracle has some similar products but their revenue streams are miniscule in comparison. They also have historically been a very lawsuit-based company, as an aggressor not a defendant.
Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Jun 2024 15:03
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The open source implementation replicates the same bugs as the oracle JVM for compatibility. So you’re still beholden to oracle for fixes and that’s why none should ever use a proprietary language
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca
on 11 Jun 2024 16:24
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even 1 employee using an Oracle JVM had to pay for every employee in the company
Before that one, they were using a “if one core can run it, all cores must have a license” model.
If you want to see how well that model did, remember
Oracle moved off its success onto this one
VMwareCom is now using it
Microsoft is using it (want to run a single 2022? License every core in your cluster)
It makes the SuSE AND SCO seat-license deal look tame.
BrianTheeBiscuiteer@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 12:00
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Nah, my company still uses Java but an open source version (Eclipse Temurin). We haven’t used Oracle Java in like 4 years.
That’s great for as long as they allow that to exist. I do not have an army of lawyers, they do. I will not ever be using Java.
kogasa@programming.dev
on 11 Jun 2024 23:11
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In a hypothetical and highly unlikely world where everyone had to pay Oracle to use Java, everyone would switch to something else. It would be guaranteed suicide. Anyway, in that world, they would need to both make this ridiculous decision and win an unwinnable legal battle afterwards. It’s not a realistic concern.
kameecoding@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 16:12
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Java has gotten me lucrative jobs and I make a more than decent living thanks to it. And I bet I am not the only one.
People should stop hating on languages and just use what’s right for the job. I am no fanboy of Java or anything (I program in multiple languages), but saying it should die already is a weird take, IMHO.
The language Java has nothing to do with the JVM. Use OpenJDK (temurin or the likes) instead, although I understand if you don’t have the freedom to do so.
Google got sued for using the language. They won, but I can’t afford that fight. They might lose but I refuse to believe that Oracle won’t change their mind in the future and decide that anyone who breathes the word Java owes them money. Oracle can’t be trusted.
Omgboom@lemmy.zip
on 11 Jun 2024 11:19
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Oracle quoted us 30K because a small handful of our users needed to use a .jnlp application a couple times per year. It took me a couple of days but I got it working with Corretto and a program called OpenWebStart.
slazer2au@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 13:45
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Not going to lie, that is the only way I remember how to spell the company name now.
Corbin@programming.dev
on 11 Jun 2024 21:07
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Oracle Ruined America’s Cup (Larry Ellison)
atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Jun 2024 12:37
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Oracle is a law firm with a large IT department.
They’ve been giving us shit because they “see downloads from our IP addresses”. It’s an absolute shake-down operation. They let anybody download their poisoned jvm for free and then tell your company that they now owe them a fortune.
thesporkeffect@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 14:14
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It’s time for corporate IT to block that download
atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Jun 2024 14:52
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We’d love to but we do have some legitimate needs for it since Oracle software requires their jvm. It’s a massive pain in the ass.
zer0squar3d@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 12 Jun 2024 04:13
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atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
on 12 Jun 2024 12:32
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It’s not about functionality. When you’re paying for licensing and support you need to use supported versions of things. If you call up about an issue with the database and you’re running an unsupported os or Java version they hang up on you.
zer0squar3d@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 12 Jun 2024 16:28
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I know it may not be an easy question to answer, but does your company really owe them money? I’m guessing that their other software that uses their JVM also has a license, so they should be more clear about the company having to license out the JVM in order to use it. This sounds like a scam that comes packaged along with some other software.
atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
on 12 Jun 2024 14:43
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Oh - sorry, Oracle offers a free “entitlement” to use the JVM when used with their software if it’s required. We don’t pay extra for the Oracle JVM.
JackbyDev@programming.dev
on 20 Jun 2024 22:10
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What’s hilarious is that the AdoptOpenJDK project (now called Adoptium) managed to create a better UI than Oracle ever had for downloads.
proton_lynx@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 14:17
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STOP USING JAVA
pohart@programming.dev
on 11 Jun 2024 15:20
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It’s so easy to use openjdk. I think the lesson is stop using oracle
IphtashuFitz@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 15:42
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My employer has a pretty large presence in AWS. We finished migrating to Amazon’s Corretto (based on openjdk) months ago. It was pretty painless given we already use Amazon’s Linux distros.
Simulation6@sopuli.xyz
on 11 Jun 2024 21:45
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What could possibly go wrong with locking yourself into an environment owned by Amazon, or Google or Microsoft?
kogasa@programming.dev
on 11 Jun 2024 22:22
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What’s the lockin? Is it really harder than just swapping the jdk path to switch between Coretto and OpenJDK? I understand Coretto being preferable for performance and security patches but I don’t imagine it’s that big of a deal if one eventually had to switch
atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
on 12 Jun 2024 05:10
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It’s not a big deal. Java haters know very little about Java.
mrkeen@mastodon.social
on 12 Jun 2024 06:47
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I think that may have been in reference to using AWS, not corretto specifically.
Feathercrown@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 18:32
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Ever since I looked up “java download” and had to go through the horrible process on the Oracle site, I decided that they didn’t want me to download Java so I should avoid it, and that has always proved to be a good decision
balder1993@programming.dev
on 11 Jun 2024 22:39
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As much as I do like programming in Java, you have a good point.
So here’s the thing. This year I fell in love wih clojure, it’s an absolute pleasure to program in. It’s also a hosted language that runs on java (primarily) or javascript (or a bunch of marginalized things). And honestly, I feel like I can make the java backend run more resource-effecient than the JS one.
Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 14:47
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Lol brb gonna share this with the CFO and watch them go into a panic. Going to bet they’ll freak out and by the end of 2024, no more Java for us.
This is the golden ticket I’ve been waiting for.
Senseless@feddit.de
on 11 Jun 2024 14:51
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Good luck
kameecoding@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 16:14
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You will just switch to one of the openjdk implementations
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca
on 11 Jun 2024 16:17
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I’ve only seen this switch go really well. The odds are good .
firelizzard@programming.dev
on 11 Jun 2024 17:53
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Obviously OpenJDK is superior to dealing with Oracle’s bull. But even more superior (IMO) is simply not using Java. My life has been noticeably more pleasant since I started refusing to touch Java.
Kissaki@programming.dev
on 11 Jun 2024 20:07
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Did you stop programming altogether? /s
I think you can potentially get stuck with worse when you stop Java.
firelizzard@programming.dev
on 12 Jun 2024 05:33
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Sure, there are worse languages and environments to get stuck with. But I can avoid those jobs. And if I get hired as a SomeLang developer and they force me to work in Java or whatever, it’s time to dust off the resume.
kameecoding@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 21:13
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No offense but I have never seen a good developer complain about java.
TheSambassador@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 23:02
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Java has a lot of advantages, but that’s a crazy statement. I feel like literally everyone complains about basic stuff like public static void main, over reliance on factories and OOP, and just how much code you need to generate for some basic stuff. I’m not a Java hater, but I am glad I don’t have to use it anymore.
kameecoding@lemmy.world
on 12 Jun 2024 08:17
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What’s the issue with public static main?
And whats the issue with factories? Factories are a design pattern thats not specific to Java, I’d recommend you read the design patterns book and understand why they exist. I also have 0 factory useage stuck in my mind and I have been developing with java since 2016.
OOP? It’s an OO language ffs, that’s like complaining that C isn’t OO. If you don’t want to use an OO language don’t use one.
how much code you need to generate for some basic stuff
Do you mean verbosity because thats only a complaint for people who dont need to maintain stuff long term. Or maybe you misused java for doing something simple where python would have sufficed.
And then there is the springboot framework that makes shit trivial
TheSambassador@lemmy.world
on 15 Jun 2024 17:12
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So a lot of Java hate I think is mostly in jest.
Personally, Java was the programming language that I had to use for my first two years of college. It’s how I learned OOP, data structures, and algorithms. I had to use Eclipse, which at the time was AWFUL (and maybe still is, no idea). I remember it being semi-normal for it to take over a minute to launch on my (gaming) PC.
Later on, as I learned other languages and got a job, I just haven’t really had a reason to go back to Java, and most of my memories of it are from being annoyed at Eclipse and needing to implement Quicksort in it. I’m sure it’s a great language and I bet it’s a lot better and more convenient now. It’s just kinda trendy and weirdly nostalgic to hate on it in a half-serious way :) .
topperharlie@lemmy.world
on 12 Jun 2024 04:31
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you clearly don’t know many good developers
echodot@feddit.uk
on 12 Jun 2024 08:12
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People complain about Java being weird all the time. The reason people complain about it is because they use it all the time and things about it annoy them.
Pretty much everyone who uses any programming language has stuff they don’t like about it and we’ll complain about it from time to time. A lot of this stuff never really gets fixed, because updating languages is problematic, see mysqli_real_escape_string.
I don’t want to be that guy, but that PHP function call at the end that you said never really gets fixed… I haven’t used that in 20 years of PHP, and I’m pretty sure that hasn’t existed since like 10-15 years ago. People seem to love to hate php because 20 years ago it did something not quite right.
MadhuGururajan@programming.dev
on 12 Jun 2024 10:10
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Being good has nothing to do with having to maintain your company’s code base that’s in Oracle’s Java SE 1.6.
You can’t just design your way out of a conflict whose solution is to change either the existing system architecture or change Java versions,
both suggestions will get you laughed out of the room.
atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
on 12 Jun 2024 05:20
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This isn’t Java it’s the jvm. Other languages run on it as well.
firelizzard@programming.dev
on 12 Jun 2024 05:30
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I am aware of that, but Java is the most popular language that runs on the JVM. I don’t specifically dislike other JVM languages, though one of my issues is type erasure and that’s partially a limitation of the JVM.
azthec@feddit.nl
on 12 Jun 2024 05:46
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There are solutions to it. For example in Scala I’ve had to use Class tags a couple of times before and they were ergonomic and functioned well
atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
on 12 Jun 2024 12:47
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Kotlin is becoming very popular.In like 10 years of Java development I ran into type erasure like once…
Project Valhalla should help with it though (when it finally lands). And kotlin/other jvm languages will benefit as well.
werefreeatlast@lemmy.world
on 11 Jun 2024 20:00
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People are still using Java?
kogasa@programming.dev
on 11 Jun 2024 22:27
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3 billion devices
werefreeatlast@lemmy.world
on 12 Jun 2024 03:33
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That’s it?
Kolanaki@yiffit.net
on 11 Jun 2024 22:25
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But industry experts have pointed out that businesses with limited Java use would have to license the software per employee under the latest model
What about JavaFX? It’s included in the Oracle JVM but not in the others afaik.
atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jun 2024 15:58
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JavaFX was removed from the main Java spec in Java 11. Even the Oracle Java distribution. It’s a separate project now and is pretty easy to include as as jar if needed. In fact there are non-Oracle builds of the JVM that do add it (there are Zulu builds that put it back in). Because Java is now GPL. Anyone can create a build and include what they want.
I’m actually not that shocked. Corporations make weird corporate decisions all the time because they feel as if they’re getting the more professional version or something. They tend to view open source projects as either unprofessional or in some complicated way, actually illegal. Like it’ll turn out that open source isn’t allowed after all.
This is what happens when lawyers who don’t actually know what they’re talking about make recommendations. They don’t know, so they always advise caution. Also they genuinely don’t seem to know the difference between pirated software and open source.
Fungah@lemmy.world
on 12 Jun 2024 13:52
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I’m currently involved in a legal case in which I produced audio recordings. I was questioned intensely by the other sides lawyer about the modified date on windows.
I kept asking him to clarify what he meant by modified until he said “I don’t know”.
The reason corporation are like that is because the responsibility is with the employee the decided to use the open source tool, when there is another company backing a product, there is someone to hold accountable. Also, there is a support number if shit hits the fan, and guarantee of support long term if the supplier is financial healthy.
threaded - newest
Private Domicile and I will not be harassed!
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Oracle has started to dispatch Java audit letters to Fortune 200 companies for the first time, according to one licensing expert.
But industry experts have pointed out that businesses with limited Java use would have to license the software per employee under the latest model, a dramatic shift from the one previously offered by Oracle.
But that has changed in recent months, according to Craig Guarente, founder and CEO of Palisade Compliance, an independent Oracle licensing advisory company.
Guarente was speaking on a webinar hosted by Azul, which helps organizations move away from Oracle Java to open source alternatives.
In February 2023, Gartner warned that Oracle “actively targets organizations” on Java compliance following the introduction of new contractual terms for the code.
In July last year, The Register revealed Oracle was sending unsolicited emails to businesses offering to discuss Java subscription deals, seemingly in an effort to extract information that could be to its benefit in future license negotiations.
The original article contains 555 words, the summary contains 159 words. Saved 71%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
auditors gonna make absolute bank from bribes
Is there some general history that makes you think that or more specific or just a gut feel?
Way to push Fortune 200 companies towards Azul, Adoptium, Correto and other alternative Java distributions, Oracle!
Can Oracle kill javascript as well, please? Please?
.
No, I know that – I honestly want them both to die :p
Both have been a blight on software development for decades.
I don’t have a problem with Java, and you can get Oracle free versions of Java.
JavaScript on the other hand is a blight as you say.
You can get blight free versions of JavaScript too, if you use TypeScript.
Yeah, for a short time there the word ‘java’ was very ‘in’. Marketing hipsters at the time wanted to use it in everything, just like the word ‘AI’ now.
JavaScript’s real name is ECMAScript.
tc39.es
ECMA by Ecma?
<img alt="" src="https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/71e19075-9944-4b6c-9d6e-f681884f748d.jpeg">
Ahh, needed Wiki:
Java is to Javascript what car is to carpet or somesuch
Why would a car have a pet?
I'd say it's as boat is to airplane
You can bet your bottom dollar Oracle will find a way if it is profitable.
Why would anyone recommend their company to use Oracle stuff these days? Oracle should give kickbacks to people that recommend to use Oracle Database, Java, or VirtualBox in their company so they’ll keep at it /s
Oracle databases are not allowed to run in the Google cloud because of ceo drama
It feels like actual innovation in all sectors has slowed to a crawl, and corporations – especially the ones run by MBA parasites – are concentrating more and more on just squeezing money out of people with various bullshit tactics, while at the same time thinning their workforce (naturally the MBAs are never under threat, though)
Oracle was never really innovative on a technical level , it’s first and foremost a company focused on selling licenses, and they’re really innovative in that regard but if you fall for that as a company, I have no pity, this is their whole schtick.
Big companies in general are often rather conservative in nature while innovation happens on smaller scale and later expands.
The big problem is rather that a lot of innovation has been absorbed by the big companies via buyouts, especially when money was cheap to borrow. Innovation bears risk, buying an established solution and milking existing users much less so.
I don’t think the users are without blame. A lot of people ignore the red flags when a solution is just convenient enough (we need the commercial support / this exactly covers our use case so we don’t have to hire someone to adapt it / …) and the vendor then cashes out when moving away from his solution would be really expensive.
I think there’s still a lot of innovation lately, but a lot people are just looking for the next big thing that does everything it feels like.
I was a developer at Oracle. We got handed down sales goals. ??? It was a running joke in our org that oracle is a sales company and we just scramble to make what they’re selling. When I left half our org had been laid off or left. Only got two raises in the 5 years I was there. Not worth.
Which ultimately does seem to lead to innovation slowing down. The big players buy out any potential smaller competitors, and very often just outright kill the products / services they inherited in the acquisition.
oracle did not develop java. it was developed at sun, which oracle then bought
Alright, not that I wrote or implied that anywhere… In fact Java was probably the whole reason Oracle bought Sun to gain leverage over Android. Which fits very much into what I wrote - one company innovates, another one buys them to squeeze users (Google wasn’t a customer of Sun, they used their own implementation which wasn’t exactly Java but also not exactly anything else). Just that Sun by all means wasn’t a small company, I mean they controlled almost a full stack with their own processors (SPARC), workstations and servers (Blade was somewhat famous), an operating system with Solaris (and if you want to count it even JavaOS) and Java on top of those, and they contributed a lot of technology like NFS, ZFS (license discussions aside). On the other hand, when they bought someone, the product wasn’t just milked to death, but actually integrated into their stack and continued to be developed in the open.
Shame it turned out that way, I guess Sun was a bit overleveraged with how much they did vs. how much they made from it. And to think that Oracle paid less than a fifth than what Twitter sold for later for all of that technology to go to waste, just for a chance to sue Google… But we long as suits continue to license their stuff because they have cool advertisements at airports, this will keep going.
Even their RDBMS and SQL was copied from ideas that came from IBM. And I recall either E. F. Codd or one of the SQL guys making a remark about Oracle’s less-than-saviour sales tactics, even back in the 90s.
We’re at the end-times for western capitalism, where rent-seeking has become the primary driver of markets. It’s happening all around us.
<img alt="" src="https://i.imgflip.com/8tl1it.jpg">
Is that not all of them right now?
Probably the majority
Oracle was one of the first companies on my personal shit-list. I feel validated.
<img alt="I fucking knew it" src="https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/000/896/c3a.png">
Lol wtf is that bird?
That’s a Harpy Eagle, I think.
Corpos nagging corpos? I’ll get the popcorn.
This is how Oracle finally kills Java. I stopped working with Java many years ago and firmly believe that no developer should tie themselves to this fuckery. Find a new job before it’s too late.
This is only very indirectly related to Java as a whole. the reference implementation of the jvm is open source and managed by a coalition of companies under a GPL license, the OpenJDK.
Oracle has its own set of enhancements to the reference jvm that handle things like just-in-time compilation and garbage collection differently and have some additional flags that allow for more fine-grained tweaking of certain features.
There are many other companies that do the same.
Oracle only started doing this in 2019 so many companies who were running Java before this used the Oracle JVM out of convenience, even if they weren’t going to use the tweaked parts. So everyone switched to another implementation, OpenJDK, Amazon Coretto, Eclipse J9 or some other available JRE/JDK.
In 2023 Oracle cracked down harder trying to get people to pay for licenses and changed their terms such that any company with even 1 employee using an Oracle JVM had to pay for every employee in the company. ridiculous I know.
This is just more news about Oracle’s licensing crackdown and not about Java as a whole at all. Think of it more like the Unity licensing change and you’re telling people to stop coding in C#.
I’m aware of the jdk alternatives and I will never use any of them because Oracle might some day decide that they’re an IP violation like they did with Google’s Android. I’m sure you’ll tell me something about the licensing being different but that still will not matter because there is always the possibility that Oracle will change their mind and start messing with me for sport. The Java ecosystem is rotten from the top down because Oracle cannot be trusted.
OpenJDK is released under the GPL. That requires making any patents available for free to users.
They could theoretically change their mind and try some shit, but the GPL is hard to go “backsies” on.
Feel free to use it, as long as you’re willing to pay lawyers to fight them when they decide otherwise.
You’re just spreading FUD now.
It’s just my reasoning as to why I won’t use Oracle products. Feel free to put your own company at risk.
I f’ing love how you’re blaming me personally. Don’t be a dick.
BTW - don’t mistake “cynicism” for “reasoning”.
Sorry, I have my own company, my choices matter, you should blame whomever made that choice for you.
It’s not necessarily cynicism if it’s based on previous patterns of behavior. Oracle reveals themselves to be run by bullies again and again and I choose to not put myself at risk. You do you.
It’s exactly what it is because you’re ignoring facts that contradict your position because “I’ve been hurt before”. The OpenJDK license is currently the MOST permissive it’s ever been. And that was done by Oracle which is shocking to me.
The GPL is an old and well accepted license and there are lots of groups who will jump to defend it. And there are lots of companies backing the OpenJDK that aren’t Oracle. Oracle would need to fight Amazon, Microsoft, IBM (RedHat), the Eclipse Foundations, etc. if they wanted to change that.
Sorry, no, I will not go back to my abuser because they say it’s different this time.
Like I said - cynicism.
Reality.
Buddy I’d love to introduce you to reality some day.
Is that a threat?
Only if you fear reality?
Depends on how you “introduce me to reality”
Do you always make vague threats when someone disagrees with you on the internet?
Do you always take sarcastic insults as threats?
Not usually. Are you always this poor of a communicator?
Maybe you’re just a bit thick.
You’re having the same conversation with me on multiple threads and it’s me who is thick? It seems like you’re personally insulted when someone does not choose the tech stack that you identify with. It’s a language, not a religion, you’re going to be ok. I have my reasons not to like it and you do not have to approve. Get over yourself.
FUD
They lost that case. It went all the way to the US Supreme Court and set a binding precedent that an API re-implementation falls under the Fair Use doctrine. Maybe Oracle could try some excuse to say that OpenJDK is different enough from what Android did for that precedent to apply, but it would be a major uphill battle, and they know it.
It was expensive for Google and fighting them would destroy most companies. It’s cheaper to avoid the ecosystem entirely.
It was expensive for Google, but they’ve done the hard work of establishing the precedent. It’s much easier to fight when you have a strong binding precedent on your side.
I don’t have to fight if I just use something else. There is very little advantage to using Java when everything from .NET to Node to Ruby to Python are all super mature and have a similar amount of open source packages available. There might still be a question of performance and for that we have Go, Rust and elixir- not quite as mature but all still can do everything I need and then some.
As an added bonus, none of those frameworks have Larry Ellison lurking around the corner waiting to sue me if he decides to change the terms of license. Java is dead to me.
.NET… You trust Microsoft over Oracle. Ridiculous.
When have they ever sued someone for using .NET?
They could though! Microsoft has a long history of “embrace, extend, extinguish”!
You may be willing to put your company at risk because you trust Microsoft but I’m not going to.
Feel free to do you, I have told you this already. Seeing you’re unable to drop the conversation, when did Microsoft ever sue someone for using C#? I trust Microsoft far more than Oracle (reasons detailed in another comment). However, I do not run Microsoft software at my company at this time, other things work better for what I need.
When has Oracle sued somebody for using OpenJDK?
Give them a few years to change the rules. If their prior love of lawsuits is any indication they will do so soon.
Same with Microsoft. The company harvesting personal information to feed to an AI.
Do you see?? Do you see yet that you’re just now blindly defending a company that has been so anti-open source in its past? A company that has been found guilty of abusing a monopoly? Yet you’re defending them over another company that has also done terrible things??
You’re approach is so laughably black & white with no nuance that you can’t even see that I’m mocking it by attacking Microsoft with your same terrible logic.
No, these are different situations. One openly sued the user’s of their language, the other did not.
You don’t even understand what they sued over. 🤣
C# is a better language anyway.
I expect the future is in Rust and C#.
Oh I agree. I love C#. My uni taught most of its classes in Java, but my work has been mostly C#, and it’s a huge step up. It would be my choice 100% of the time if starting a new project where the decision is between those two. But if I were using Java via OpenJDK, I wouldn’t be afraid of a lawsuit; that’s the only point I wanted to make.
I’m curious. Microsoft is in a similar position with its open-source-like work. It’s been great for PR but MS has a bad history with Open-Source and with its customers (1999-doj-vs-ms). It’s one of the very few companies so bad they were actually sued by the doj.
If you feel this way about Oracle, what’s your feeling toward Microsoft? Does it colour your use of c# or dot-net knowing that a company with a track record of rug-pulling and secretly thumbing the scale is still in control of the tools you choose to use?
C# is not my first choice but I did tolerate it the last time I worked a corporate job. MS seems committed to .NET core being open source and have never tried to rug pull C# or the .NET framework itself.
Also, I believe Microsoft’s incentives are different, and in a way that benefits me. For instance, they sell more Windows Server licenses because it’s easier for legacy shops to administrate (even though it can be done with nginx now). They also get more native software released for Windows, sell more Visual Studio Pro licenses and are able to steer people toward Azure DevOps and other Azure based cloud services.
Oracle has some similar products but their revenue streams are miniscule in comparison. They also have historically been a very lawsuit-based company, as an aggressor not a defendant.
Azul here
The open source implementation replicates the same bugs as the oracle JVM for compatibility. So you’re still beholden to oracle for fixes and that’s why none should ever use a proprietary language
Before that one, they were using a “if one core can run it, all cores must have a license” model.
If you want to see how well that model did, remember
It makes the SuSE AND SCO seat-license deal look tame.
Nah, my company still uses Java but an open source version (Eclipse Temurin). We haven’t used Oracle Java in like 4 years.
That’s great for as long as they allow that to exist. I do not have an army of lawyers, they do. I will not ever be using Java.
In a hypothetical and highly unlikely world where everyone had to pay Oracle to use Java, everyone would switch to something else. It would be guaranteed suicide. Anyway, in that world, they would need to both make this ridiculous decision and win an unwinnable legal battle afterwards. It’s not a realistic concern.
What an ignorant take, lmao
What a well thought out retort /s
Java has gotten me lucrative jobs and I make a more than decent living thanks to it. And I bet I am not the only one.
People should stop hating on languages and just use what’s right for the job. I am no fanboy of Java or anything (I program in multiple languages), but saying it should die already is a weird take, IMHO.
I like languages that aren’t going to get my company sued later
The language Java has nothing to do with the JVM. Use OpenJDK (temurin or the likes) instead, although I understand if you don’t have the freedom to do so.
Nonetheless, the suing part is damn stupid.
Google got sued for using the language. They won, but I can’t afford that fight. They might lose but I refuse to believe that Oracle won’t change their mind in the future and decide that anyone who breathes the word Java owes them money. Oracle can’t be trusted.
Oracle quoted us 30K because a small handful of our users needed to use a .jnlp application a couple times per year. It took me a couple of days but I got it working with Corretto and a program called OpenWebStart.
idrac console? I tried open web start, no joy
One Rich Asshole Called Larry Ellison
Wired name for a lawn mower.
Are lawn mower names normally wireless?
Anti Commercial-AI license
Not going to lie, that is the only way I remember how to spell the company name now.
Oracle Ruined America’s Cup (Larry Ellison)
Oracle is a law firm with a large IT department.
They’ve been giving us shit because they “see downloads from our IP addresses”. It’s an absolute shake-down operation. They let anybody download their poisoned jvm for free and then tell your company that they now owe them a fortune.
It’s time for corporate IT to block that download
We’d love to but we do have some legitimate needs for it since Oracle software requires their jvm. It’s a massive pain in the ass.
Openjdk: openjdk.org
Or for people that use jre or want installers: adoptopenjdk.net/releases.html
We just went through all of this and we just switched to openjdk without issues.
You didn’t seem to understand. Oracle only supports their own jvm when running their software that uses Java (e.g. weblogic).
.
It’s not about functionality. When you’re paying for licensing and support you need to use supported versions of things. If you call up about an issue with the database and you’re running an unsupported os or Java version they hang up on you.
Sorry forgot about support. You are right.
I know it may not be an easy question to answer, but does your company really owe them money? I’m guessing that their other software that uses their JVM also has a license, so they should be more clear about the company having to license out the JVM in order to use it. This sounds like a scam that comes packaged along with some other software.
Oh - sorry, Oracle offers a free “entitlement” to use the JVM when used with their software if it’s required. We don’t pay extra for the Oracle JVM.
What’s hilarious is that the AdoptOpenJDK project (now called Adoptium) managed to create a better UI than Oracle ever had for downloads.
STOP USING JAVA
It’s so easy to use openjdk. I think the lesson is stop using oracle
My employer has a pretty large presence in AWS. We finished migrating to Amazon’s Corretto (based on openjdk) months ago. It was pretty painless given we already use Amazon’s Linux distros.
What could possibly go wrong with locking yourself into an environment owned by Amazon, or Google or Microsoft?
What’s the lockin? Is it really harder than just swapping the jdk path to switch between Coretto and OpenJDK? I understand Coretto being preferable for performance and security patches but I don’t imagine it’s that big of a deal if one eventually had to switch
It’s not a big deal. Java haters know very little about Java.
@atzanteol @kogasa bullshit
You’re getting downvoted because you spoke the truth.
I think that may have been in reference to using AWS, not corretto specifically.
Ever since I looked up “java download” and had to go through the horrible process on the Oracle site, I decided that they didn’t want me to download Java so I should avoid it, and that has always proved to be a good decision
As much as I do like programming in Java, you have a good point.
So here’s the thing. This year I fell in love wih clojure, it’s an absolute pleasure to program in. It’s also a hosted language that runs on java (primarily) or javascript (or a bunch of marginalized things). And honestly, I feel like I can make the java backend run more resource-effecient than the JS one.
Lol brb gonna share this with the CFO and watch them go into a panic. Going to bet they’ll freak out and by the end of 2024, no more Java for us.
This is the golden ticket I’ve been waiting for.
Good luck
You will just switch to one of the openjdk implementations
I’ve only seen this switch go really well. The odds are good .
Obviously OpenJDK is superior to dealing with Oracle’s bull. But even more superior (IMO) is simply not using Java. My life has been noticeably more pleasant since I started refusing to touch Java.
Did you stop programming altogether? /s
I think you can potentially get stuck with worse when you stop Java.
Sure, there are worse languages and environments to get stuck with. But I can avoid those jobs. And if I get hired as a SomeLang developer and they force me to work in Java or whatever, it’s time to dust off the resume.
No offense but I have never seen a good developer complain about java.
Java has a lot of advantages, but that’s a crazy statement. I feel like literally everyone complains about basic stuff like public static void main, over reliance on factories and OOP, and just how much code you need to generate for some basic stuff. I’m not a Java hater, but I am glad I don’t have to use it anymore.
What’s the issue with public static main?
And whats the issue with factories? Factories are a design pattern thats not specific to Java, I’d recommend you read the design patterns book and understand why they exist. I also have 0 factory useage stuck in my mind and I have been developing with java since 2016.
OOP? It’s an OO language ffs, that’s like complaining that C isn’t OO. If you don’t want to use an OO language don’t use one.
Do you mean verbosity because thats only a complaint for people who dont need to maintain stuff long term. Or maybe you misused java for doing something simple where python would have sufficed.
And then there is the springboot framework that makes shit trivial
So a lot of Java hate I think is mostly in jest.
Personally, Java was the programming language that I had to use for my first two years of college. It’s how I learned OOP, data structures, and algorithms. I had to use Eclipse, which at the time was AWFUL (and maybe still is, no idea). I remember it being semi-normal for it to take over a minute to launch on my (gaming) PC.
Later on, as I learned other languages and got a job, I just haven’t really had a reason to go back to Java, and most of my memories of it are from being annoyed at Eclipse and needing to implement Quicksort in it. I’m sure it’s a great language and I bet it’s a lot better and more convenient now. It’s just kinda trendy and weirdly nostalgic to hate on it in a half-serious way :) .
you clearly don’t know many good developers
People complain about Java being weird all the time. The reason people complain about it is because they use it all the time and things about it annoy them.
Pretty much everyone who uses any programming language has stuff they don’t like about it and we’ll complain about it from time to time. A lot of this stuff never really gets fixed, because updating languages is problematic, see
mysqli_real_escape_string.I don’t want to be that guy, but that PHP function call at the end that you said never really gets fixed… I haven’t used that in 20 years of PHP, and I’m pretty sure that hasn’t existed since like 10-15 years ago. People seem to love to hate php because 20 years ago it did something not quite right.
Being good has nothing to do with having to maintain your company’s code base that’s in Oracle’s Java SE 1.6.
You can’t just design your way out of a conflict whose solution is to change either the existing system architecture or change Java versions,
both suggestions will get you laughed out of the room.
This isn’t Java it’s the jvm. Other languages run on it as well.
I am aware of that, but Java is the most popular language that runs on the JVM. I don’t specifically dislike other JVM languages, though one of my issues is type erasure and that’s partially a limitation of the JVM.
There are solutions to it. For example in Scala I’ve had to use Class tags a couple of times before and they were ergonomic and functioned well
Kotlin is becoming very popular.In like 10 years of Java development I ran into type erasure like once…
Project Valhalla should help with it though (when it finally lands). And kotlin/other jvm languages will benefit as well.
People are still using Java?
3 billion devices
That’s it?
Yikes.
Fairly sure that in that case it would actually be more cost effective to just rewrite the application.
In most cases they could probably switch to OpenJDK without losing anything whatsoever.
The memory hog JVM and Dalvik on Android both need to go tbh.
Even if you can use OpenJDK or Kotlin as an upgrade, Go has shown a much better system with selective memory control which is easy to implement.
Or Rust if you want all the performance.
Kill it before it gestates
We got the notice 2 months ago, I played dumb asking for their proof and they sent a 5 hits detected from ips we owned. Which was a joke.
openjdk.org for pre built binaries or for installers and jre, use: adoptopenjdk.net/releases.html
Oracle is horrible and deserves to lose Java.
As it says on AdoptOpenJDK page, the project has rebranded to Adoptium.
I use Adoptium on Windows (dunno, seems to run Minecraft, OK, that’s good enough for me). On Linux I just use whatever OpenJDK is packaged in distro.
Is anyone else in this thread surprised people weren’t using OpenJDK this whole time?
OpenJDK misses some parts that are in the Oracle JVM
Not anymore, they changed it so they are identical except for the license
OpenJDK is the reference implementation now. Biggest differences I’ve seen are in the default list of trusted CAs.
What about JavaFX? It’s included in the Oracle JVM but not in the others afaik.
JavaFX was removed from the main Java spec in Java 11. Even the Oracle Java distribution. It’s a separate project now and is pretty easy to include as as jar if needed. In fact there are non-Oracle builds of the JVM that do add it (there are Zulu builds that put it back in). Because Java is now GPL. Anyone can create a build and include what they want.
I’m actually not that shocked. Corporations make weird corporate decisions all the time because they feel as if they’re getting the more professional version or something. They tend to view open source projects as either unprofessional or in some complicated way, actually illegal. Like it’ll turn out that open source isn’t allowed after all.
This is what happens when lawyers who don’t actually know what they’re talking about make recommendations. They don’t know, so they always advise caution. Also they genuinely don’t seem to know the difference between pirated software and open source.
I’m currently involved in a legal case in which I produced audio recordings. I was questioned intensely by the other sides lawyer about the modified date on windows.
I kept asking him to clarify what he meant by modified until he said “I don’t know”.
Like. Ffs.
The reason corporation are like that is because the responsibility is with the employee the decided to use the open source tool, when there is another company backing a product, there is someone to hold accountable. Also, there is a support number if shit hits the fan, and guarantee of support long term if the supplier is financial healthy.
Also corruption where the person choosing to pay Oracle also is an owner of Oracle.
I like Java but Oracle are pricks. Thank god for OpenJDK
Oracle is a law firm disguised as a tech company