jia_tan@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 01 Nov 2024 08:51
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🦀🦀🦀
perviouslyiner@lemmy.world
on 01 Nov 2024 08:55
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Seems excessive to convert everything to rust when you can use std::shared_ptr and std::weak_ptr to eliminate the memory safety issue?
cmnybo@discuss.tchncs.de
on 01 Nov 2024 09:02
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I wonder how many issues rewriting everything in another language will create?
tyler@programming.dev
on 02 Nov 2024 01:09
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Just as many issues as not reading the article.
psycotica0@lemmy.ca
on 01 Nov 2024 11:45
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I get what you’re saying, but I think the issue with optional memory safety features is that it’s hard to be sure you’re using it in all the places and hard to maintain that when someone can add a new allocation in the future, etc. It’s certainly doable, and maybe some static analysis tools out there can prove it’s all okay.
Whereas with Rust, it’s built from the ground up to prove exactly that, plus other things like no memory being shared between threads by accident etc. Rust makes it difficult and obvious to do the wrong thing, rather than that being the default.
arendjr@programming.dev
on 01 Nov 2024 11:56
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Using smart pointers doesn’t eliminate the memory safety issue, it merely addresses one aspect of it. Even with smart pointers, nothing is preventing you from passing references and using them after they’re freed.
refalo@programming.dev
on 01 Nov 2024 15:43
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To be fair, it’s entirely possible to make the same and very similar mistakes in Rust, too.
GetOffMyLan@programming.dev
on 01 Nov 2024 18:55
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I’m fairly sure use after free isn’t possible unless you explicitly use unsafe code right?
It’s compiler enforced is the point.
robinm@programming.dev
on 05 Nov 2024 08:30
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Is it possible to do in Rust?
Yes
Is possible to do in Rust, by mistake, and not easily caught by a review?
Definitively not.
refalo@programming.dev
on 05 Nov 2024 20:03
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I think you could argue the same point with C++
robinm@programming.dev
on 09 Nov 2024 12:44
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Neither foo(), nor add_missing_values() looks suspicious. Nonetheless, if v.push_back(3) requires v to grow, then ref becomes an invalid reference and std::cout << ref becomes UB (use after free). In Rust this would not compiles.
It is order of magnitudes easier to have lifetime errors in C++ than in Rust (use after free, double free, data races, use before initialisation, …)
refalo@programming.dev
on 09 Nov 2024 14:56
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This would be caught by ASan and other tools though, which should be part of any review.
robinm@programming.dev
on 09 Nov 2024 19:51
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That’s why I did not said it was impossible, just order of magnitude harder to catch in C++ compared to Rust.
To have asan finding the bug, you need to have a valid unit test, that has a similar enough workload. Otherwise you may not see the bug with asan if the vector doesn’t grow (and thus ref would still be valid, not triggering UB), leading to a production-only bug.
Asan is a wonderfull tool, but you can’t deny it’s much harder to use and much less reliable than just running your compiler.
robinm@programming.dev
on 12 Nov 2024 09:23
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this test case triggers the bug (it is not guarateed to properly reproduce you production environment since it depends on the parameters of the allocator of your vector)
you use ubsan
… then the bug will be caught.
Yes it is possible, noone says the opposite. But you can’t deny it’s harder. And because its harder, more bugs get past review, most notably security bugs as demonstrated again and again in many studies.
The
magic_lobster_party@fedia.io
on 01 Nov 2024 12:10
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From the original document:
Software manufacturers should build products in a manner that systematically prevents the introduction of memory safety vulnerabilities, such as by using a memory safe language or hardware capabilities that prevent memory safety vulnerabilities. Additionally, software manufacturers should publish a memory safety roadmap by January 1, 2026.
My interpretation is that smart pointers are allowed, as long it’s systematically enforced. Switching to a memory safe language is just one example.
FizzyOrange@programming.dev
on 03 Nov 2024 13:47
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I have never seen a single C++ codebase do that. It helps but it’s not a practical full solution.
Sonotsugipaa@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 01 Nov 2024 09:02
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That is an extremely oddly specific cysec issue they’re choosing to target…
BlazeDaley@lemmy.world
on 01 Nov 2024 12:20
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It’s one backed by a lot of data. One example is from the Android project.
The percent of vulnerabilities caused by memory safety issues continues to correlate closely with the development language that’s used for new code. Memory safety issues, which accounted for 76% of Android vulnerabilities in 2019, and are currently 24% in 2024, well below the 70% industry norm, and continuing to drop.
There’s an argument that critical infrastructure software vendors are already meeting standards for basic, non-memory related items. Yes, there are other categories, but memory safety is one that’s harder to verify. Moving to memory safe languages is an ensure a category of correctness. This excludes usage of unsafe escape hatches.
MyNameIsRichard@lemmy.ml
on 01 Nov 2024 09:08
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wewbull@feddit.uk
on 01 Nov 2024 09:11
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That sounds like policy written by somebody who has no idea what the reality of software development is.
1 year to rewrite critical software in a new language?
nous@programming.dev
on 01 Nov 2024 10:57
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Did you read the article at all?
“Putting all new code aside, fortunately, neither this document nor the U.S. government is calling for an immediate migration from C/C++ to Rust — as but one example,” he said. “CISA’s Secure by Design document recognizes that software maintainers simply cannot migrate their code bases en masse like that.”
Companies have until January 1, 2026, to create memory safety roadmaps.
All they are asking for by that date is a roadmap for dealing with memory safety issues, not rewrite everything.
IsThisAnAI@lemmy.world
on 01 Nov 2024 11:25
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Solid detective work Lou.
GetOffMyLan@programming.dev
on 01 Nov 2024 18:53
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That sounds like a comment written by somebody who has no idea what the article says
sp3tr4l@lemmy.zip
on 01 Nov 2024 09:48
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… Are the Feds aware that the core systems that many, many older companies (and government agencies) use are still based on COBOL?
Is… is that not of any concern?
aubeynarf@lemmynsfw.com
on 01 Nov 2024 11:00
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Is COBOL subject to buffer overflows and use-after-free bugs? I honestly don’t know.
I don’t recall the COBOL code I’ve read using pointers.
The problem I am aware of is moreso that the number of programmers that know COBOL is vanishingly small, it … COBOL does not seem to really be taught anymore…
…so if something goes wrong at that level, you may be SOL if you cannot find an increasingly rare programmer that knows COBOL well.
tyler@programming.dev
on 02 Nov 2024 01:01
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The article says this isn’t to affect existing code.
mox@lemmy.sdf.org
on 01 Nov 2024 20:41
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Don’t assume too much from the headline, folks. They’re not saying everything has to be rewritten by 2026. They’re saying new product lines serving critical infrastructure should be written in memory-safe languages, and existing ones should have a memory safety roadmap.
If you’re about to post about how you think that’s unreasonable, I think you should explain why.
Primer81@lemmy.zip
on 01 Nov 2024 20:51
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Just from reading the article, is the scope just critical software infrastructure? What does that encompass exactly? Banking and military software seems easy to assume - what about embedded medical device software? Or just embedded software in general?
NauticalNoodle@lemmy.ml
on 01 Nov 2024 21:07
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threaded - newest
🦀🦀🦀
Seems excessive to convert everything to rust when you can use std::shared_ptr and std::weak_ptr to eliminate the memory safety issue?
I wonder how many issues rewriting everything in another language will create?
Just as many issues as not reading the article.
I get what you’re saying, but I think the issue with optional memory safety features is that it’s hard to be sure you’re using it in all the places and hard to maintain that when someone can add a new allocation in the future, etc. It’s certainly doable, and maybe some static analysis tools out there can prove it’s all okay.
Whereas with Rust, it’s built from the ground up to prove exactly that, plus other things like no memory being shared between threads by accident etc. Rust makes it difficult and obvious to do the wrong thing, rather than that being the default.
Using smart pointers doesn’t eliminate the memory safety issue, it merely addresses one aspect of it. Even with smart pointers, nothing is preventing you from passing references and using them after they’re freed.
To be fair, it’s entirely possible to make the same and very similar mistakes in Rust, too.
I’m fairly sure use after free isn’t possible unless you explicitly use unsafe code right?
It’s compiler enforced is the point.
Yes
Definitively not.
I think you could argue the same point with C++
Neither foo(), nor add_missing_values() looks suspicious. Nonetheless, if
v.push_back(3)
requiresv
to grow, thenref
becomes an invalid reference andstd::cout << ref
becomes UB (use after free). In Rust this would not compiles.It is order of magnitudes easier to have lifetime errors in C++ than in Rust (use after free, double free, data races, use before initialisation, …)
This would be caught by ASan and other tools though, which should be part of any review.
That’s why I did not said it was impossible, just order of magnitude harder to catch in C++ compared to Rust.
To have asan finding the bug, you need to have a valid unit test, that has a similar enough workload. Otherwise you may not see the bug with asan if the vector doesn’t grow (and thus
ref
would still be valid, not triggering UB), leading to a production-only bug.Asan is a wonderfull tool, but you can’t deny it’s much harder to use and much less reliable than just running your compiler.
I think you have a hard time understanding the différence between “not possible” and “much harder”.
In Rust, the code does not compile.
In C++ the code compile, but
… then the bug will be caught.
Yes it is possible, noone says the opposite. But you can’t deny it’s harder. And because its harder, more bugs get past review, most notably security bugs as demonstrated again and again in many studies. The
From the original document:
My interpretation is that smart pointers are allowed, as long it’s systematically enforced. Switching to a memory safe language is just one example.
I have never seen a single C++ codebase do that. It helps but it’s not a practical full solution.
That is an extremely oddly specific cysec issue they’re choosing to target…
It’s one backed by a lot of data. One example is from the Android project.
…googleblog.com/…/eliminating-memory-safety-vulne…
There’s an argument that critical infrastructure software vendors are already meeting standards for basic, non-memory related items. Yes, there are other categories, but memory safety is one that’s harder to verify. Moving to memory safe languages is an ensure a category of correctness. This excludes usage of unsafe escape hatches.
Feds have found a way to hack rust /s?
DARPA has unironically been funding a tool that purports to translate C / C++ into Rust…
www.darpa.mil/program/translating-all-c-to-rust
That’s nice.
That sounds like policy written by somebody who has no idea what the reality of software development is.
1 year to rewrite critical software in a new language?
Did you read the article at all?
All they are asking for by that date is a roadmap for dealing with memory safety issues, not rewrite everything.
Solid detective work Lou.
That sounds like a comment written by somebody who has no idea what the article says
… Are the Feds aware that the core systems that many, many older companies (and government agencies) use are still based on COBOL?
Is… is that not of any concern?
Is COBOL subject to buffer overflows and use-after-free bugs? I honestly don’t know.
I don’t recall the COBOL code I’ve read using pointers.
The problem I am aware of is moreso that the number of programmers that know COBOL is vanishingly small, it … COBOL does not seem to really be taught anymore…
…so if something goes wrong at that level, you may be SOL if you cannot find an increasingly rare programmer that knows COBOL well.
.
The article says this isn’t to affect existing code.
Don’t assume too much from the headline, folks. They’re not saying everything has to be rewritten by 2026. They’re saying new product lines serving critical infrastructure should be written in memory-safe languages, and existing ones should have a memory safety roadmap.
If you’re about to post about how you think that’s unreasonable, I think you should explain why.
Just from reading the article, is the scope just critical software infrastructure? What does that encompass exactly? Banking and military software seems easy to assume - what about embedded medical device software? Or just embedded software in general?
is Rust ready for this?