JackbyDev@programming.dev
on 13 Sep 2023 01:07
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SO sucks.
fubo@lemmy.world
on 13 Sep 2023 01:18
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Stack Overflow is in an impossible situation. You can’t both be a good meeting-place for experts and a good place for novices to get expert advice and an advertising venue. Those things have fundamentally incompatible requirements.
Any two of them, maybe.
lysdexic@programming.dev
on 13 Sep 2023 07:23
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You can’t both be a good meeting-place for experts and a good place for novices to get expert advice and an advertising venue.
I don’t agree. There is no clear cutout between what means to be an expert and a novice. What content you’re exposed to is the output of the service’s support for user profiling and search. It is simply not possible to get rid of an important subset of your customer base without causing false positives and generate ill-will. Finally, we should keep in mind that yesterday’s novice is today’s expert.
ck_@discuss.tchncs.de
on 13 Sep 2023 08:40
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Finally, we should keep in mind that yesterday’s novice is today’s expert.
That I would strongly disagree with, at least with regards to Stackoverflow. My experience with novice programmers is that the majority of them go to Stackoverflow to get copy/paste solutions to rather trivial problems. They don’t go there to learn but rather the opposite, they are looking for shortcuts. Their ideal Stackoverflow experience would be " I have this problem, please someone write the code for me…". On Stackoverflow, this is at least frowned upon. ChatGPT however cares little about your motivation.
In my opinion, the downfall of Stackoverflow was inevitable and also pretty much warranted.
thebardingreen@lemmy.starlightkel.xyz
on 13 Sep 2023 13:11
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Reddit managed.
MajorHavoc@lemmy.world
on 13 Sep 2023 01:40
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That boat sailed off into the sunset a really long time ago.
Whatever comes next should consider not starting by talking down to new users.
Source: I’m still pissed about a ten year old bug that threw out my helpful answer after I composed it because I didn’t have enough bullshit Internet points.
A decade later it doesn’t really feel like SO has fixed their fundamentally “asshole to new contributors” vibe.
I’m glad someone else contributes, but I can’t be arsed myself. And honestly, it doesn’t look like the staff at SO really care.
So I expect the current SO cohort will eventually age out and something new, with a new vibe, will replace it. I hope it has pokemon memes.
If that new thing is polite, I might contribute there.
Pro tip: I’m at least twice as likely to contribute to the next thing if they revive the domain ExpertSexChange.com.
kambusha@feddit.ch
on 13 Sep 2023 05:11
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SO has helped me countless times, so I can’t thank it enough. However, it just seems impossible to become an “expert” these days. I can’t even vote when a solution has helped me. I’ve tried raising my own legitimate questions, but at this point they’re going to be obscure & niche, so that no one interacts with it, and I don’t get magical internet points so that I can contribute myself. It’s actually really frustrating since I’ve actually wanted to give back to the community, and it just seems to work actively against me.
MajorHavoc@lemmy.world
on 13 Sep 2023 13:24
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Yeah. This exactly.
DigitalHello@programming.dev
on 14 Sep 2023 00:37
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At one point I decided it was time for me to contribute by answering questions.
I sorted by new in PHP and found a brand new, really confusing & poorly written question. After about 5 times reading it through I finally understood what they needed, and wrote a full answer along with corrected code that I had tested.
Got an error when I submitted my answer that the question was locked. Just before I submitted my answer, a mod had locked it because it was a low quality question. I wasn’t allowed to submit my answer to their problem.
I haven’t tried writing an answer since. Just felt like a massive slap in the face for trying to finally contribute.
jchaven@social.sdf.org
on 14 Sep 2023 00:49
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I had the exact same experience. First, I tried to ask a question and couldn't for some reason (it was ~10 years ago). Then in an attempt to gain points that would allow me to ask questions (I think that was my issue) I kept getting rejected.
At the time I was active on Experts Exchange but, they were moving to a paid model. I thought I could find community on SO. You're right it does feel like a slap in the face. I hate all of Stack because of SO.
MiddleKnight@discuss.tchncs.de
on 17 Sep 2023 20:17
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Having a bunch of answers to very poor questions is not the goal.
If you managed to parse out a good question in there of general interest that has not been answered yet, you can submit it yourself and provide your own answer. That way you are actually adding something valuable to the site.
I agree that it is really hard to contribute in a meaningful way though.
I’ve been on SO for around 10 years - I’m still not allowed to upvote good answers.
Fuck you, stack
mounderfod@lemmy.sdf.org
on 13 Sep 2023 05:56
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All of the comments seem to be quite vehemently against the proposals, so it seems that stack overflow is quite happy with its somewhat toxic nature disguised as organisation :/
lysdexic@programming.dev
on 13 Sep 2023 07:27
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Being against this specific proposal does not mean people are happy with the current state of things. Is it possible that this particular proposal is bad and does not address the issues? I mean, the first item of grievance is complaining about how StackOverflow curates content by removing duplicate questions and problems that cannot be reproduced, with vague complains that this is newbie-friendly. Is this a reasonable complaint? I don’t think so.
Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world
on 13 Sep 2023 13:39
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One of the key points nailed it.
There’s way too many new questions. And frankly, new users do ask questions that are answered already. But the other problem - it’s difficult to know how to ask the good questions. Because novices don’t know what they’re asking for. Which also means, they don’t know what to search for.
But worse there’s a gamified part to it. Badly written questions don’t get much points. So even if you help, you aren’t acknowledged unless the question asker is active. So you get weird ass questions like “How do I install Tailwind on Windows?” And you try your best to understand what they mean, spend half an hour on an answer, for them to reply “No” or worst, ghost you.
It makes it weird as a community because on one end, you want to help them. But on the other end, because of SO’s own set of rules, you are limited to how. SO encourages new questions, they are badly written, experts feel like their time is being wasted because of the lack of response, experts become bitter. While the the bulk score chasers only go after extremely hot questions that have 20+ answers already. There are still jQuery answers (a pretty outdated framework from 10+ years ago) that get incredible activity, only because that’s where the points are, compared to more modern tooling.
Source: I’m apparently a top 10% contributor (?) because a few of my answers from 2011-2015 hit the top page and are highly upvoted. Also guessing it’s not hard to be in the top 10% because I’m not at all active, just been answering questions on SO for like a decade.
Obscerno@lemm.ee
on 13 Sep 2023 23:48
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I’m surprised at how negative the reaction to SO is here! It just takes a while to get the site, which unfortunately doesn’t work if you jump right in without lurking. If you ask questions the moment you run into trouble, you kind of project a disrespect for the answerer’s time by not trying to solve it yourself first. If you ask as a last resort and list what you’ve tried, people are waayy nicer, even if your question sucks.
I think the real problem is that people’s expectations aren’t properly primed going in. The site could do a much better job about that. If you ask only as a last resort, you end up solving most of your problems yourself, and SO is REALLY good at helping you do that, in a way that leaves most other sites in the dust, in my opinion.
Theharpyeagle@lemmy.world
on 14 Sep 2023 02:19
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I think the issue is that, as a new dev, you also have no idea where to go for the type of help you need, and SO is always at the top of the search results. I’ve found that discord servers are better for helping newbies because it allows more experienced users to interactively teach them how to ask questions and how to read documentation. Handing someone a URL and saying “look it up” is pretty helpful for a newbie, but that’s discouraged on SO since answers are much more permanent and links degrade over time.
Maybe SO needs some way to direct those who “don’t get the site” to a more chat-room like community where they can get their very common questions answered quickly rather than posting a duplicate question that no one wants to take the time to fully explain in a single answer.
shagie@programming.dev
on 14 Sep 2023 02:37
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Maybe SO needs some way to direct those who “don’t get the site” to a more chat-room like community where they can get their very common questions answered quickly rather than posting a duplicate question that no one wants to take the time to fully explain in a single answer.
Stack Overflow does have chat rooms, though it takes a bit of rep to get access to them (though that can be rep from any instance of stack exchange - this is because when it didn’t have a rep requirement they were spammed).
The next question would be “to what extent should Stack Overflow (the site) be redirecting people to other sites?” Consider the “if you don’t like {system}, to what extent does {system} need to be responsible for directing you to somewhere else?” Should Reddit be redirecting all its malcontents to Lemmy? Should Lemmy (the org / devs) be sending people who don’t like how its run to KBin or Mastodon?
Two things there - first, is it better to say “your question isn’t a good fit here, try this other place that accepts that type of question” (note that even if neutral wording is used people will interpret it as “your question sucks, go ask over there where its marginally better than Yahoo Answers”) and would the other place appreciate getting the poorly formed newbie questions at the rate that Stack Overflow gets them? Could any discord handle the hundreds of newbie questions that SO gets daily? How much of a disservice would Stack Overflow be doing by redirecting those questions to someone else?
Theharpyeagle@lemmy.world
on 14 Sep 2023 03:02
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I base my opinion here on my experience with the Python discord, which is probably one of my favorite haunts these days. It excels at helping newbies, of which there are many each day, because their questions are quick to answer and can be handled almost instantly by any decently experienced active user. It’s the more specific or advanced questions that languish there, because it’s less likely that someone experienced with that particular domain will happen to be online. It doesn’t need to concern itself with archival quality because no one expects answers to be referenced later.
So I think both types of communities can play to their strengths without diminishing their quality. The chat rooms can answer the simple, open ended questions that don’t bring value to SO’s database of knowledge, and the more complex and advanced questions can have a better chance of being seen and answered with valuable insight on SO.
shagie@programming.dev
on 14 Sep 2023 05:26
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Consider, however, “what if on every Python question on SO, someone left a comment to check out the python discord channel to ask their questions”.
Would the python discord channel be able to handle that volume of beginner questions (about 1 question every 5 minutes all day, every day)? And if someone did post that and try to encourage people to ask there instead, and would a representative of python discord go and ask SO meta to dissuade that user from doing so?
Sites like Stack Overflow, if they even point/redirect a fraction of their traffic at some other place can overwhelm the capacity for both support and moderation of that other place easily.
Part of the problem is also that many people asking questions don’t want help, they want copy and passable answers that involves them (the person asking the question) doing as little as possible. I realize that’s a controversial stance in some circles, but if you spend time trying to help all the users with low rep on SO (and even some with higher rep), it feels like they represent a significant portion of the people asking questions. Sampling bias? Confirmation bias? Dunno… I’ll admit to some bias somewhere… but I still know what it feels like.
Yeah I think redirecting new potential users is something the higher ups at SO would recoil against, even though it’s valid. I wonder if that’s why they’re pushing AI so much, to retain new programmers until they have problems worth asking humans.
snowe@programming.dev
on 14 Sep 2023 16:52
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It just takes a while to get the site, which unfortunately doesn’t work if you jump right in without lurking.
I don’t really think that’s the problem here. It’s pretty clear that people answering most questions just want to be contrarian. Here’s a question I asked earlier this year (not on SO, but I’ve had the same exact problem on SO years ago) where I detailed literally everything I tried and instead of reading the post, the answerer literally said:
To be candid, this is much to lengthy and broad to follow. When you get the wait cursor (the spinning beachball of death), it means that the system is waiting for something before it can move on. It could be from either RAM or your disk or another application. Before you start taking drastic steps, boot into Safe Mode and see if the problem persists.
If they had literally read even a quarter of the way through the post they would have seen that I had already done what they suggested. It’s clear the problem is with the platform. Not the people asking the questions.
In fact if you look back at most of my questions you’ll find a majority of them not answered. Not because I didn’t provide enough information, but because SO rewards tagging and closing questions rather than answering the actually difficult questions. And because of that it’s just better to have a billion questions that get closed than answer a single question that might take more than a few minutes, even if that question comes with an example project to show the problem at hand
shagie@programming.dev
on 14 Sep 2023 17:31
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SO rewards tagging and closing questions rather than answering the actually difficult questions.
I’m curious as to what reward you believe that people are getting from closing questions?
Though I’ll certainly agree with that it doesn’t reward giving good answers to hard questions enough and rather encourages easy answers to popular questions (even if the popular questions have been asked before).
snowe@programming.dev
on 14 Sep 2023 18:59
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I’m curious as to what reward you believe that people are getting from closing questions?
there’s a bunch of badges for things that can only be accomplished by flagging.
<img alt="" src="https://programming.dev/pictrs/image/4a85a2d6-f7e7-46c7-ad10-02bac9fc4b39.png">
You also get the nice ‘feeling’ of clearing your queue. The faster you do that the better you feel. It’s literally all rewards for putting as little effort in to get as much ‘reward’ as possible.
shagie@programming.dev
on 14 Sep 2023 21:13
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I’m not sure how rewarding those are - or common. A total of 257k out of 21M doesn’t suggest many people are getting rewarded for flagging (and that’s just one). Raising 80 helpful flags (for example flagging spam or people leaving rude comments) is less than 0.07% of the user base.
The cleaning the queue is… Stack Overflow’s review queues have never been cleared. Today’s stats for Stack Overflow’s close queue ( with 3000 items in it that time out after 3 days stackoverflow.com/review/close/stats ) has had 273 reviews done (not all were close votes) done by 18 people (out of 21 million) and most of those people who have done the majority of the reviews received the marshal badge over 5 years ago and so aren’t getting any new rewards for doing more. You are equally rewarded for clicking “leave open” as you are for clicking “close” in the queues.
There is no reputation reward for any of the review tasks either.
With over 1000 rep on Stack Overflow, you should have access to the First Posts and Late Answers review queues where you can get an idea of well, give it a try to see what’s in there. There’s a fair bit of people trying to sneak links into new answers to old questions (Late Answers) that having another set of eyes on would help catch before they get too far. Likewise, there’s a lot of posts to First Posts where someone could help a new user and take the time to help them make their question better… or if it isn’t a good fit for the Q&A format of Stack Overflow flag it for closure.
Without the gamification of the badges, the participation in community moderation and curation of the material would likely be even less active.
snowe@programming.dev
on 17 Sep 2023 14:41
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With over 1000 rep on Stack Overflow, you should have access to the First Posts and Late Answers review queues where you can get an idea of well, give it a try to see what’s in there. There’s a fair bit of people trying to sneak links into new answers to old questions (Late Answers) that having another set of eyes on would help catch before they get too far. Likewise, there’s a lot of posts to First Posts where someone could help a new user and take the time to help them make their question better… or if it isn’t a good fit for the Q&A format of Stack Overflow flag it for closure.
Those queues were the ones I’m talking about. SO rewards clearing your queue of 40 per day for each queue (maybe that’s different if you have more rep).
Without the gamification of the badges, the participation in community moderation and curation of the material would likely be even less active.
I very much doubt that. Forums for helping others existed for decades before SO and even now a lot of stuff has moved to discord, Reddit, Zulip, and slack and they still have moderation and most people actually get answers to their questions.
shagie@programming.dev
on 17 Sep 2023 16:13
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You can do at most 40 reviews per day (to avoid people going on autopilot) but you are no more rewarded for doing 40 reviews in a day than you are doing 1 review a day for 40 days. The only exception to the 40/day limit is for diamond (elected) moderators.
Furthermore, you’ll note that the review that you recently did (first posts) you were rewarded for doing it for the firs time… and your review action (which is public) was “looks ok” rather than down voting it or flagging it (though the answer you review wasn’t upvoted… so its ok, but not ok enough to up vote?).
The goal of the review queues is to get people to just check to make sure things are going ok.
If/when you get to 3000 rep, you’ll be just as rewarded for casting a close vote in the close vote queue as you would for saying “leave open” - or going into the reopen queue and casting a reopen vote.
The point is that the one sided statement of “SO rewards tagging and closing questions” doesn’t properly capture what you are doing. Additionally, the rewards for doing reviews (badges) is completely separate from the rewards that drive the rest of the site (reputation).
Overall, the system of voting, curation, and moderation on Stack Overflow has broken down. There are not enough people doing these things on a regular basis and so the actions that are taken to keep Stack Overflow from becoming Yahoo Answers are predominately “close” rather than “cultivate and curate” because there isn’t enough time for people who are able to do those tasks to do so and make a meaningful impact.
Your next badge would be to help out in the first posts review queue another 249 times.
The badges are there to help guide new users to discovery of the site as they participate more on it. Voting everyone does and understands, but few people see the review queues unless guided there by badges and blame “the moderators” (which is everyone on the site with sufficient rep to do reviews) for actions.
How do you get users who have participated enough to get 1000 rep to do a first posts review? Or 2000 rep to help out and check the suggested edits? Or 3000 rep and see if things should be opened or closed other than with the badges prompted prompted by reaching various reputation thresholds?
Forums for helping others existed for decades before SO and even now a lot of stuff has moved to discord, Reddit, Zulip, and slack and they still have moderation and most people actually get answers to their questions.
Zulip and Slack and discord are quite good for interactive help with someone on a problem now. They’re absolutely a non-starter for searching for past issues so that you don’t need to ask someone to get interactive help now.
Reddit is ok as it’s indexed by google… until people go through and delete their old content. Sure, that’s fine and it’s their content, but it also means that you’re asking questions there. And you’ll also note the curation and formatting of in www.reddit.com/r/javahelp/ isn’t exactly up to Stack Overflow standards.
The point is that these are different systems with different goals and are trying to do them in different ways.
Reddit doesn’t care about the long term searchable value of a question or answer as much as Stack Overflow does because once it drops off the page it’s gone and no one is going to find it again. Stack Overflow had a different goal.
Stackoverflow is sort of like the anti-experts-exchange (minus the nausea-inducing sleaze and quasi-legal search engine gaming) meets wikipedia meets programming reddit. It is by programmers, for programmers, with the ultimate intent of collectively increasing the sum total of good programming knowledge in the world. No matter what programming language you use, or what operating system you call home. Better programming is our goal.
It’s fair to argue if its by programmers anymore - but that was its goal and its a very different goal than “help each person who asks a question.”
While I respect the degree of technical expertise you can get on SO, I am very much convinced this is a failed experiment which will slowly collapse on itself. And I think that because the organization of the site is completely at odds with it’s professed goal.
SO is not really a forum, because time is supposed to be irrelevant : a 12 years old answer takes precedence over a question asked now, failing to consider that, maybe, the context of this question has changed. Its ridiculous, especially in the context of software engineering.
On the other hand, it’s not a library either : a library is a collection of book, which are relatively self-contained knowledge systems. And in practice, the SO answers are not self-contained. They merely answer a specific point, with no guaranteed coherence from one to another, so a beginner cannot use them to build a broad understanding of a subject.
To take the analogy of the Cathedral and the Bazar, I am under the impression that SO members are trying to build a cathedral out of the stone sold by hundred of bazaar people, and refuse to see that fact that all stones all having different sizes and dimensions is maybe kind of a problem when you build a cathedral.
QuadriLiteral@programming.dev
on 14 Sep 2023 19:45
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Failed experiment? SO is by far the best source for tech questions. It’s wildly successful.
threaded - newest
SO sucks.
Stack Overflow is in an impossible situation. You can’t both be a good meeting-place for experts and a good place for novices to get expert advice and an advertising venue. Those things have fundamentally incompatible requirements.
Any two of them, maybe.
I don’t agree. There is no clear cutout between what means to be an expert and a novice. What content you’re exposed to is the output of the service’s support for user profiling and search. It is simply not possible to get rid of an important subset of your customer base without causing false positives and generate ill-will. Finally, we should keep in mind that yesterday’s novice is today’s expert.
That I would strongly disagree with, at least with regards to Stackoverflow. My experience with novice programmers is that the majority of them go to Stackoverflow to get copy/paste solutions to rather trivial problems. They don’t go there to learn but rather the opposite, they are looking for shortcuts. Their ideal Stackoverflow experience would be " I have this problem, please someone write the code for me…". On Stackoverflow, this is at least frowned upon. ChatGPT however cares little about your motivation.
In my opinion, the downfall of Stackoverflow was inevitable and also pretty much warranted.
Reddit managed.
That boat sailed off into the sunset a really long time ago.
Whatever comes next should consider not starting by talking down to new users.
Source: I’m still pissed about a ten year old bug that threw out my helpful answer after I composed it because I didn’t have enough bullshit Internet points.
A decade later it doesn’t really feel like SO has fixed their fundamentally “asshole to new contributors” vibe.
I’m glad someone else contributes, but I can’t be arsed myself. And honestly, it doesn’t look like the staff at SO really care.
So I expect the current SO cohort will eventually age out and something new, with a new vibe, will replace it. I hope it has pokemon memes.
If that new thing is polite, I might contribute there.
Pro tip: I’m at least twice as likely to contribute to the next thing if they revive the domain ExpertSexChange.com.
SO has helped me countless times, so I can’t thank it enough. However, it just seems impossible to become an “expert” these days. I can’t even vote when a solution has helped me. I’ve tried raising my own legitimate questions, but at this point they’re going to be obscure & niche, so that no one interacts with it, and I don’t get magical internet points so that I can contribute myself. It’s actually really frustrating since I’ve actually wanted to give back to the community, and it just seems to work actively against me.
Yeah. This exactly.
At one point I decided it was time for me to contribute by answering questions.
I sorted by new in PHP and found a brand new, really confusing & poorly written question. After about 5 times reading it through I finally understood what they needed, and wrote a full answer along with corrected code that I had tested.
Got an error when I submitted my answer that the question was locked. Just before I submitted my answer, a mod had locked it because it was a low quality question. I wasn’t allowed to submit my answer to their problem.
I haven’t tried writing an answer since. Just felt like a massive slap in the face for trying to finally contribute.
@DigitalHello @kambusha
I had the exact same experience. First, I tried to ask a question and couldn't for some reason (it was ~10 years ago). Then in an attempt to gain points that would allow me to ask questions (I think that was my issue) I kept getting rejected.
At the time I was active on Experts Exchange but, they were moving to a paid model. I thought I could find community on SO. You're right it does feel like a slap in the face. I hate all of Stack because of SO.
Having a bunch of answers to very poor questions is not the goal.
If you managed to parse out a good question in there of general interest that has not been answered yet, you can submit it yourself and provide your own answer. That way you are actually adding something valuable to the site.
I agree that it is really hard to contribute in a meaningful way though.
I’ve been on SO for around 10 years - I’m still not allowed to upvote good answers.
Fuck you, stack
All of the comments seem to be quite vehemently against the proposals, so it seems that stack overflow is quite happy with its somewhat toxic nature disguised as organisation :/
Being against this specific proposal does not mean people are happy with the current state of things. Is it possible that this particular proposal is bad and does not address the issues? I mean, the first item of grievance is complaining about how StackOverflow curates content by removing duplicate questions and problems that cannot be reproduced, with vague complains that this is newbie-friendly. Is this a reasonable complaint? I don’t think so.
One of the key points nailed it.
There’s way too many new questions. And frankly, new users do ask questions that are answered already. But the other problem - it’s difficult to know how to ask the good questions. Because novices don’t know what they’re asking for. Which also means, they don’t know what to search for.
But worse there’s a gamified part to it. Badly written questions don’t get much points. So even if you help, you aren’t acknowledged unless the question asker is active. So you get weird ass questions like “How do I install Tailwind on Windows?” And you try your best to understand what they mean, spend half an hour on an answer, for them to reply “No” or worst, ghost you.
It makes it weird as a community because on one end, you want to help them. But on the other end, because of SO’s own set of rules, you are limited to how. SO encourages new questions, they are badly written, experts feel like their time is being wasted because of the lack of response, experts become bitter. While the the bulk score chasers only go after extremely hot questions that have 20+ answers already. There are still jQuery answers (a pretty outdated framework from 10+ years ago) that get incredible activity, only because that’s where the points are, compared to more modern tooling.
Source: I’m apparently a top 10% contributor (?) because a few of my answers from 2011-2015 hit the top page and are highly upvoted. Also guessing it’s not hard to be in the top 10% because I’m not at all active, just been answering questions on SO for like a decade.
I’m surprised at how negative the reaction to SO is here! It just takes a while to get the site, which unfortunately doesn’t work if you jump right in without lurking. If you ask questions the moment you run into trouble, you kind of project a disrespect for the answerer’s time by not trying to solve it yourself first. If you ask as a last resort and list what you’ve tried, people are waayy nicer, even if your question sucks.
I think the real problem is that people’s expectations aren’t properly primed going in. The site could do a much better job about that. If you ask only as a last resort, you end up solving most of your problems yourself, and SO is REALLY good at helping you do that, in a way that leaves most other sites in the dust, in my opinion.
I think the issue is that, as a new dev, you also have no idea where to go for the type of help you need, and SO is always at the top of the search results. I’ve found that discord servers are better for helping newbies because it allows more experienced users to interactively teach them how to ask questions and how to read documentation. Handing someone a URL and saying “look it up” is pretty helpful for a newbie, but that’s discouraged on SO since answers are much more permanent and links degrade over time.
Maybe SO needs some way to direct those who “don’t get the site” to a more chat-room like community where they can get their very common questions answered quickly rather than posting a duplicate question that no one wants to take the time to fully explain in a single answer.
Stack Overflow does have chat rooms, though it takes a bit of rep to get access to them (though that can be rep from any instance of stack exchange - this is because when it didn’t have a rep requirement they were spammed).
The next question would be “to what extent should Stack Overflow (the site) be redirecting people to other sites?” Consider the “if you don’t like {system}, to what extent does {system} need to be responsible for directing you to somewhere else?” Should Reddit be redirecting all its malcontents to Lemmy? Should Lemmy (the org / devs) be sending people who don’t like how its run to KBin or Mastodon?
Two things there - first, is it better to say “your question isn’t a good fit here, try this other place that accepts that type of question” (note that even if neutral wording is used people will interpret it as “your question sucks, go ask over there where its marginally better than Yahoo Answers”) and would the other place appreciate getting the poorly formed newbie questions at the rate that Stack Overflow gets them? Could any discord handle the hundreds of newbie questions that SO gets daily? How much of a disservice would Stack Overflow be doing by redirecting those questions to someone else?
I base my opinion here on my experience with the Python discord, which is probably one of my favorite haunts these days. It excels at helping newbies, of which there are many each day, because their questions are quick to answer and can be handled almost instantly by any decently experienced active user. It’s the more specific or advanced questions that languish there, because it’s less likely that someone experienced with that particular domain will happen to be online. It doesn’t need to concern itself with archival quality because no one expects answers to be referenced later.
So I think both types of communities can play to their strengths without diminishing their quality. The chat rooms can answer the simple, open ended questions that don’t bring value to SO’s database of knowledge, and the more complex and advanced questions can have a better chance of being seen and answered with valuable insight on SO.
chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/info/6/python and sopython.com/chatroom for SO’s python chat room.
Consider, however, “what if on every Python question on SO, someone left a comment to check out the python discord channel to ask their questions”.
Would the python discord channel be able to handle that volume of beginner questions (about 1 question every 5 minutes all day, every day)? And if someone did post that and try to encourage people to ask there instead, and would a representative of python discord go and ask SO meta to dissuade that user from doing so?
Sites like Stack Overflow, if they even point/redirect a fraction of their traffic at some other place can overwhelm the capacity for both support and moderation of that other place easily.
Part of the problem is also that many people asking questions don’t want help, they want copy and passable answers that involves them (the person asking the question) doing as little as possible. I realize that’s a controversial stance in some circles, but if you spend time trying to help all the users with low rep on SO (and even some with higher rep), it feels like they represent a significant portion of the people asking questions. Sampling bias? Confirmation bias? Dunno… I’ll admit to some bias somewhere… but I still know what it feels like.
Yeah I think redirecting new potential users is something the higher ups at SO would recoil against, even though it’s valid. I wonder if that’s why they’re pushing AI so much, to retain new programmers until they have problems worth asking humans.
I don’t really think that’s the problem here. It’s pretty clear that people answering most questions just want to be contrarian. Here’s a question I asked earlier this year (not on SO, but I’ve had the same exact problem on SO years ago) where I detailed literally everything I tried and instead of reading the post, the answerer literally said:
If they had literally read even a quarter of the way through the post they would have seen that I had already done what they suggested. It’s clear the problem is with the platform. Not the people asking the questions.
In fact if you look back at most of my questions you’ll find a majority of them not answered. Not because I didn’t provide enough information, but because SO rewards tagging and closing questions rather than answering the actually difficult questions. And because of that it’s just better to have a billion questions that get closed than answer a single question that might take more than a few minutes, even if that question comes with an example project to show the problem at hand
I’m curious as to what reward you believe that people are getting from closing questions?
Though I’ll certainly agree with that it doesn’t reward giving good answers to hard questions enough and rather encourages easy answers to popular questions (even if the popular questions have been asked before).
there’s a bunch of badges for things that can only be accomplished by flagging. <img alt="" src="https://programming.dev/pictrs/image/4a85a2d6-f7e7-46c7-ad10-02bac9fc4b39.png">
You also get the nice ‘feeling’ of clearing your queue. The faster you do that the better you feel. It’s literally all rewards for putting as little effort in to get as much ‘reward’ as possible.
I’m not sure how rewarding those are - or common. A total of 257k out of 21M doesn’t suggest many people are getting rewarded for flagging (and that’s just one). Raising 80 helpful flags (for example flagging spam or people leaving rude comments) is less than 0.07% of the user base.
The cleaning the queue is… Stack Overflow’s review queues have never been cleared. Today’s stats for Stack Overflow’s close queue ( with 3000 items in it that time out after 3 days stackoverflow.com/review/close/stats ) has had 273 reviews done (not all were close votes) done by 18 people (out of 21 million) and most of those people who have done the majority of the reviews received the marshal badge over 5 years ago and so aren’t getting any new rewards for doing more. You are equally rewarded for clicking “leave open” as you are for clicking “close” in the queues.
There is no reputation reward for any of the review tasks either.
With over 1000 rep on Stack Overflow, you should have access to the First Posts and Late Answers review queues where you can get an idea of well, give it a try to see what’s in there. There’s a fair bit of people trying to sneak links into new answers to old questions (Late Answers) that having another set of eyes on would help catch before they get too far. Likewise, there’s a lot of posts to First Posts where someone could help a new user and take the time to help them make their question better… or if it isn’t a good fit for the Q&A format of Stack Overflow flag it for closure.
Without the gamification of the badges, the participation in community moderation and curation of the material would likely be even less active.
Those queues were the ones I’m talking about. SO rewards clearing your queue of 40 per day for each queue (maybe that’s different if you have more rep).
I very much doubt that. Forums for helping others existed for decades before SO and even now a lot of stuff has moved to discord, Reddit, Zulip, and slack and they still have moderation and most people actually get answers to their questions.
You can do at most 40 reviews per day (to avoid people going on autopilot) but you are no more rewarded for doing 40 reviews in a day than you are doing 1 review a day for 40 days. The only exception to the 40/day limit is for diamond (elected) moderators.
Furthermore, you’ll note that the review that you recently did (first posts) you were rewarded for doing it for the firs time… and your review action (which is public) was “looks ok” rather than down voting it or flagging it (though the answer you review wasn’t upvoted… so its ok, but not ok enough to up vote?).
The goal of the review queues is to get people to just check to make sure things are going ok.
If/when you get to 3000 rep, you’ll be just as rewarded for casting a close vote in the close vote queue as you would for saying “leave open” - or going into the reopen queue and casting a reopen vote.
The point is that the one sided statement of “SO rewards tagging and closing questions” doesn’t properly capture what you are doing. Additionally, the rewards for doing reviews (badges) is completely separate from the rewards that drive the rest of the site (reputation).
Overall, the system of voting, curation, and moderation on Stack Overflow has broken down. There are not enough people doing these things on a regular basis and so the actions that are taken to keep Stack Overflow from becoming Yahoo Answers are predominately “close” rather than “cultivate and curate” because there isn’t enough time for people who are able to do those tasks to do so and make a meaningful impact.
Your next badge would be to help out in the first posts review queue another 249 times.
The badges are there to help guide new users to discovery of the site as they participate more on it. Voting everyone does and understands, but few people see the review queues unless guided there by badges and blame “the moderators” (which is everyone on the site with sufficient rep to do reviews) for actions.
How do you get users who have participated enough to get 1000 rep to do a first posts review? Or 2000 rep to help out and check the suggested edits? Or 3000 rep and see if things should be opened or closed other than with the badges prompted prompted by reaching various reputation thresholds?
I’m sure that people still go to javaranch.com to view posts like coderanch.com/f/33/java for getting help and searching for answers.
Zulip and Slack and discord are quite good for interactive help with someone on a problem now. They’re absolutely a non-starter for searching for past issues so that you don’t need to ask someone to get interactive help now.
Reddit is ok as it’s indexed by google… until people go through and delete their old content. Sure, that’s fine and it’s their content, but it also means that you’re asking questions there. And you’ll also note the curation and formatting of in www.reddit.com/r/javahelp/ isn’t exactly up to Stack Overflow standards.
The point is that these are different systems with different goals and are trying to do them in different ways.
Reddit doesn’t care about the long term searchable value of a question or answer as much as Stack Overflow does because once it drops off the page it’s gone and no one is going to find it again. Stack Overflow had a different goal.
blog.codinghorror.com/introducing-stackoverflow-c…
It’s fair to argue if its by programmers anymore - but that was its goal and its a very different goal than “help each person who asks a question.”
While I respect the degree of technical expertise you can get on SO, I am very much convinced this is a failed experiment which will slowly collapse on itself. And I think that because the organization of the site is completely at odds with it’s professed goal.
SO is not really a forum, because time is supposed to be irrelevant : a 12 years old answer takes precedence over a question asked now, failing to consider that, maybe, the context of this question has changed. Its ridiculous, especially in the context of software engineering.
On the other hand, it’s not a library either : a library is a collection of book, which are relatively self-contained knowledge systems. And in practice, the SO answers are not self-contained. They merely answer a specific point, with no guaranteed coherence from one to another, so a beginner cannot use them to build a broad understanding of a subject.
To take the analogy of the Cathedral and the Bazar, I am under the impression that SO members are trying to build a cathedral out of the stone sold by hundred of bazaar people, and refuse to see that fact that all stones all having different sizes and dimensions is maybe kind of a problem when you build a cathedral.
Failed experiment? SO is by far the best source for tech questions. It’s wildly successful.
I agree, but I think this issue is fixable and doesn’t invalidate the whole concept