Windex007@lemmy.world
on 04 Sep 01:54
nextcollapse
“Well, it’s all website-driven, and people don’t really care about domain names these days; it’s all subdomains on sites like Vercel.”
Shut up. People love their ego domains.
I like the article, but that one almost seems like a strawman. Is anyone actually arguing that?
JakenVeina@midwest.social
on 04 Sep 12:40
collapse
Probably not. Seems more like he’s pre-emptively anticipatibg counter-arguments. Which is fair. He’s the one who put up a chart of TLD registrations as evidence of his point.
That’s a great read. I’ve used AI a few times, and I’ve never used any of the code it’s spat out. The only thing it’s helped me with was telling me how to solve a bug when I knew what the problem was, but didn’t know the right RFC the solution was in (RFC 2047, about encoding non ASCII text in email headers, if you’re interested).
One big issue I have with AI is how utterly reliant on RegEx it is. Everything can be solved with a RegEx! Even if it’s a terrible solution with horrendous performance implications, just throw more RegEx at it! Need to parse HTML? Guess what! RegEx!
Anafabula@discuss.tchncs.de
on 04 Sep 06:11
nextcollapse
it’s great at interpreting stack traces/logs/crash reports
surph_ninja@lemmy.world
on 04 Sep 13:55
nextcollapse
Have you tried telling it not to suggest a regex solution?
iamtherealwalrus@lemmy.world
on 04 Sep 15:56
nextcollapse
I’ve never seen it recommend a solution using regex. And I’ve had it provide a lot of useful code. Perhaps you need to look into prompt engineering training?
The RegEx thing is so true in my experience. I started working on a Neovim plugin to make editing injected code easier, and instead of suggesting Treesitter integration it wanted to create its own parser using RegEx…
azertyfun@sh.itjust.works
on 04 Sep 22:51
collapse
I’ve been using the AI to help me with some beginner level rust compilation checks recently.
I never once got an accurate solution, but half the time it gave me a decent enough keyword to google or broken pattern to fix myself. The other half of the time it kept giving me back my own code proudly telling me it fixed it.
Don’t worry though, AGI is right around the corner. Just one more trillion dollars bro. One trillion and we’ll provide untold value to the shareholders bro. Trust me bro.
FizzyOrange@programming.dev
on 04 Sep 06:25
nextcollapse
I think it’s both true that you can’t really write an entire app with just AI… At least not easily.
But also I don’t buy that AI doesn’t make me more productive. I’m not allowed to use it on my actual code but I have used it several times to generate one-off scripts and visualisations and for those it can easily save hours. They aren’t software I need to edit myself though.
tatterdemalion@programming.dev
on 04 Sep 06:52
collapse
Pretty much everyone I’ve talked to about this says the same thing. LLMs are useful for one-off scripts or quickly generating boilerplate. It just turns out that those tasks don’t make up the majority of programming work unless you are in a bullshit job anyway.
We aren’t yet great at knowing when LLM will save time and when it will inflate time.
flambonkscious@sh.itjust.works
on 04 Sep 09:47
nextcollapse
If only we libraries online of boilerplate crap with a few options to transfom them slightly… We’d need a lot less datacentres
flambonkscious@sh.itjust.works
on 04 Sep 19:59
collapse
Yes!
I’m not even a programmer, but lot of this is really dictated by the language, isn’t it? (C or .Net, for example - and all the default crap needed for UI elements I’ve had to endure in Powershell, which was probably calling a .Net library)
C at least has a preprocessor. C# has almost nothing except generators, which are a huge pain in the ass. Java seems to be similar.
Lisp is the greatest. Everything else is in between.
FizzyOrange@programming.dev
on 04 Sep 10:07
collapse
They’re probably pretty good for CRUD apps, which do tend to be like 50% boilerplate, but also I also wouldn’t characterise them as “bullshit”. Boring maybe.
I dont get to decide what i code at work. My manager and product owners decide based on business needs. Most of the time its fixes and adding or removing functions as competing interests change priorities. But its really good at documenting old code while everyone figures exactly what they want. This author is in the 80s asking why every company doesnt immediately have a website now that the internet is available.
bitcrafter@programming.dev
on 04 Sep 14:54
nextcollapse
That’s unfortunate for you, but not every company operates like that. There’s new startups every day, and with all the VC money they’re getting, they’re in a prime position to be building these new products. The fact so many AI products are under-delivering is enough of an indicator for me to agree with the article’s logic
thesmokingman@programming.dev
on 04 Sep 21:23
collapse
Your response seems very enterprise-focused. I think you might be missing the kind of software development that happens before it becomes enterprise. All of these metrics are very reasonable for new products, startups, consulting, and hobby hackers. If code were moving 10X now, we should reasonably see 10X new growth. These numbers show we’re not.
Arguably we should also see a 10X something in legacy and enterprise as well which is harder to measure. If we assume a 10X dev is producing 10X more code, we should expect 10X more bugs so we should also see a rise in QA positions. We’re not, so that’s a good indicator. We should also see a rise in product manager roles to handle teams that are suddenly producing 10X per member. We’re not, so that’s a good indicator. We should also see 10X new product deliveries from companies like Salesforce. We’re not, so that’s a good indicator.
You completely missed the sections on how long these tools have been available. Your point about the internet would be valid if this article was written in, say, 2021 when Copilot and Tabnine were new and hot. It would also have maybe been valid in early 2023 when people were first spinning up workflows off ChatGPT and making 10X promises. It’s now years later and we’re not seeing any growth in any of those numbers as illustrated by the article.
I did my time in start ups and VCs. Its not all that much different. They have a main product and you spend your timevenhancing or integrating that with everyone else. Its just getting started. Were in the bbs era of ai. Most people are still just trying out copilot. Go watch the machiners and creators on youtube or one of the other platforms. Its working it way into everything and still being refined. People pay way to much attention to hype and propoganda/advertising. Just like with tesla but electric cars are still going strong, getting better and increasingly replacing ice cars. Just because front men overhype things dont mean theyre without value. Like ive said in other comments ai as it is now is a tool like any other. There will be fhose that adapt and those that fall behind. This is all just deja vu for me with soalr power and electric cars from from the 80s and 90s. Theyll never be efficient enough, theyll never have the range, theyll take up to much space, be too heavy, wear out to fast, etc etc.
10×s developers who could produce 0 code without it
Let me see; ten times nothin’, add nothin’, carry the nothin’…
Sodium_nitride@lemmygrad.ml
on 04 Sep 14:42
nextcollapse
Not to be an LLM shill, but perhaps the reason we are not seeing a massive increase in apps being released and new domain names is due to economic factors stunting the potential AI. It’s just a confounding factor I can think of.
If the author wants to steelman their argument, they could look into the total number of developers before AI and after AI. They could compare working hours (not officially recorded working hours, but actual “I am working on making code” hours).
There are other economic factors also. Large corporations will control the majority of developer working hours. And large corporations won’t be making shovelware. Meanwhile people who are not so beholden to factors of economics aren’t necessarily going to build public shovelware. They might just be building scripts for personal use.
BrianTheeBiscuiteer@lemmy.world
on 04 Sep 16:11
nextcollapse
AI has been good at auto-completing things for me, but it almost always suggests things I already knew without even web searching. If I try to get advice about things I know nothing about (code wise) it’s a really bad teacher, skips steps, and makes suggestions that don’t work at all.
I’m guessing there’s been no software explosion because AI is really only good for the “last 20%” of effort and can’t really breach 51% where it’s doing the majority of the driving.
Apropos to use the term “driving” I feel. Autonomous vehicles have largely been successful because the goal is clear (i.e. “take me to the grocery store”) and there’s a finite number of paths to reach the goal (no off-roading allowed). In programming, even if the goal is crystal clear, there really are an infinite number of solutions. If the driver (i.e. developer) doesn’t have a clear path and vision for the solution then AI will only add noise and throw you off track.
What is this circular logic? AI bad therefore there should be more bad programs, but there are not, therefore AI bad? Maybe they use it responsibly, ever thought of that?
“AI bad therefore…” was not part of their argument at all. They’re saying lack of time is a primary reason developers don’t release more products and try all their ideas. If the productivity increase claims of 2x or even 10x that some AI shills are pushing, then we should expect an increase in shovelware product releases.
The logic seems sound to me. They even collected their own data to try and back up their theory.
lets_get_off_lemmy@reddthat.com
on 04 Sep 21:06
nextcollapse
AI coding assistants have made my life a lot easier. I’ve created multiple personal projects in a day that would’ve taken me multiple days of figuring out frontend stuff.
It’s also helped me in my work, especially in refactoring. I don’t know how y’all are using them, but I get a lot of efficient use out of them.
Do you feel that turducken-style programming and differences in the current models’ ability to handle declarative vs imperative impacts realization of productivity gains?
People are spending all this time trying to get good at prompting and feeling bad because they’re failing.
This whole thing is bullshit.
So if you’re a developer feeling pressured to adopt these tools — by your manager, your peers, or the general industry hysteria — trust your gut. If these tools feel clunky, if they’re slowing you down, if you’re confused how other people can be so productive, you’re not broken. The data backs up what you’re experiencing. You’re not falling behind by sticking with what you know works.
AI is not the first technology to do this to people. I’ve been a software engineer for nearing 20 years now, and I’ve seen this happen with other technologies. People convinced it’s making them super productive, others not getting the same gains and internalizing it, thinking they’re to blame rather than the software. The Java ecosystem has been full of shitty technologies like that for most of the time Java has existed. Spring is probably one of the most harmful examples.
threaded - newest
Based
I like the article, but that one almost seems like a strawman. Is anyone actually arguing that?
Probably not. Seems more like he’s pre-emptively anticipatibg counter-arguments. Which is fair. He’s the one who put up a chart of TLD registrations as evidence of his point.
Important metrics.
Good to have some hard data!
ELI5? What’s going on here? Also, the substack author is Mike Judge?
If AI coding is causing such a revolution, why are we not seeing a sharp increase in code production?
(Backed up with data)
That’s a great read. I’ve used AI a few times, and I’ve never used any of the code it’s spat out. The only thing it’s helped me with was telling me how to solve a bug when I knew what the problem was, but didn’t know the right RFC the solution was in (RFC 2047, about encoding non ASCII text in email headers, if you’re interested).
One big issue I have with AI is how utterly reliant on RegEx it is. Everything can be solved with a RegEx! Even if it’s a terrible solution with horrendous performance implications, just throw more RegEx at it! Need to parse HTML? Guess what! RegEx!
Classic
it’s great at interpreting stack traces/logs/crash reports
Have you tried telling it not to suggest a regex solution?
I’ve never seen it recommend a solution using regex. And I’ve had it provide a lot of useful code. Perhaps you need to look into prompt engineering training?
The RegEx thing is so true in my experience. I started working on a Neovim plugin to make editing injected code easier, and instead of suggesting Treesitter integration it wanted to create its own parser using RegEx…
I’ve been using the AI to help me with some beginner level rust compilation checks recently.
I never once got an accurate solution, but half the time it gave me a decent enough keyword to google or broken pattern to fix myself. The other half of the time it kept giving me back my own code proudly telling me it fixed it.
Don’t worry though, AGI is right around the corner. Just one more trillion dollars bro. One trillion and we’ll provide untold value to the shareholders bro. Trust me bro.
I think it’s both true that you can’t really write an entire app with just AI… At least not easily.
But also I don’t buy that AI doesn’t make me more productive. I’m not allowed to use it on my actual code but I have used it several times to generate one-off scripts and visualisations and for those it can easily save hours. They aren’t software I need to edit myself though.
Pretty much everyone I’ve talked to about this says the same thing. LLMs are useful for one-off scripts or quickly generating boilerplate. It just turns out that those tasks don’t make up the majority of programming work unless you are in a bullshit job anyway.
We aren’t yet great at knowing when LLM will save time and when it will inflate time.
If only we libraries online of boilerplate crap with a few options to transfom them slightly… We’d need a lot less datacentres
We should have tools and libraries that help us avoid boilerplate, not ones that help us write more of it.
Bazingo
Yes!
I’m not even a programmer, but lot of this is really dictated by the language, isn’t it? (C or .Net, for example - and all the default crap needed for UI elements I’ve had to endure in Powershell, which was probably calling a .Net library)
C at least has a preprocessor. C# has almost nothing except generators, which are a huge pain in the ass. Java seems to be similar.
Lisp is the greatest. Everything else is in between.
They’re probably pretty good for CRUD apps, which do tend to be like 50% boilerplate, but also I also wouldn’t characterise them as “bullshit”. Boring maybe.
I dont get to decide what i code at work. My manager and product owners decide based on business needs. Most of the time its fixes and adding or removing functions as competing interests change priorities. But its really good at documenting old code while everyone figures exactly what they want. This author is in the 80s asking why every company doesnt immediately have a website now that the internet is available.
The web did not exist until the 90’s.
That’s unfortunate for you, but not every company operates like that. There’s new startups every day, and with all the VC money they’re getting, they’re in a prime position to be building these new products. The fact so many AI products are under-delivering is enough of an indicator for me to agree with the article’s logic
Your response seems very enterprise-focused. I think you might be missing the kind of software development that happens before it becomes enterprise. All of these metrics are very reasonable for new products, startups, consulting, and hobby hackers. If code were moving 10X now, we should reasonably see 10X new growth. These numbers show we’re not.
Arguably we should also see a 10X something in legacy and enterprise as well which is harder to measure. If we assume a 10X dev is producing 10X more code, we should expect 10X more bugs so we should also see a rise in QA positions. We’re not, so that’s a good indicator. We should also see a rise in product manager roles to handle teams that are suddenly producing 10X per member. We’re not, so that’s a good indicator. We should also see 10X new product deliveries from companies like Salesforce. We’re not, so that’s a good indicator.
You completely missed the sections on how long these tools have been available. Your point about the internet would be valid if this article was written in, say, 2021 when Copilot and Tabnine were new and hot. It would also have maybe been valid in early 2023 when people were first spinning up workflows off ChatGPT and making 10X promises. It’s now years later and we’re not seeing any growth in any of those numbers as illustrated by the article.
I did my time in start ups and VCs. Its not all that much different. They have a main product and you spend your timevenhancing or integrating that with everyone else. Its just getting started. Were in the bbs era of ai. Most people are still just trying out copilot. Go watch the machiners and creators on youtube or one of the other platforms. Its working it way into everything and still being refined. People pay way to much attention to hype and propoganda/advertising. Just like with tesla but electric cars are still going strong, getting better and increasingly replacing ice cars. Just because front men overhype things dont mean theyre without value. Like ive said in other comments ai as it is now is a tool like any other. There will be fhose that adapt and those that fall behind. This is all just deja vu for me with soalr power and electric cars from from the 80s and 90s. Theyll never be efficient enough, theyll never have the range, theyll take up to much space, be too heavy, wear out to fast, etc etc.
I have no doubt it 10xs developers who could produce 0 code without it
Let me see; ten times nothin’, add nothin’, carry the nothin’…
Not to be an LLM shill, but perhaps the reason we are not seeing a massive increase in apps being released and new domain names is due to economic factors stunting the potential AI. It’s just a confounding factor I can think of.
If the author wants to steelman their argument, they could look into the total number of developers before AI and after AI. They could compare working hours (not officially recorded working hours, but actual “I am working on making code” hours).
There are other economic factors also. Large corporations will control the majority of developer working hours. And large corporations won’t be making shovelware. Meanwhile people who are not so beholden to factors of economics aren’t necessarily going to build public shovelware. They might just be building scripts for personal use.
AI has been good at auto-completing things for me, but it almost always suggests things I already knew without even web searching. If I try to get advice about things I know nothing about (code wise) it’s a really bad teacher, skips steps, and makes suggestions that don’t work at all.
I’m guessing there’s been no software explosion because AI is really only good for the “last 20%” of effort and can’t really breach 51% where it’s doing the majority of the driving.
Apropos to use the term “driving” I feel. Autonomous vehicles have largely been successful because the goal is clear (i.e. “take me to the grocery store”) and there’s a finite number of paths to reach the goal (no off-roading allowed). In programming, even if the goal is crystal clear, there really are an infinite number of solutions. If the driver (i.e. developer) doesn’t have a clear path and vision for the solution then AI will only add noise and throw you off track.
Also it’s just wrong a lot when I ask things I don’t know.
“Use
private_keyparameter instead ofpkey.”Alright, cool, good tip.
“Unknown parameter
private_key.”*jim face*
What is this circular logic? AI bad therefore there should be more bad programs, but there are not, therefore AI bad? Maybe they use it responsibly, ever thought of that?
“AI bad therefore…” was not part of their argument at all. They’re saying lack of time is a primary reason developers don’t release more products and try all their ideas. If the productivity increase claims of 2x or even 10x that some AI shills are pushing, then we should expect an increase in shovelware product releases.
The logic seems sound to me. They even collected their own data to try and back up their theory.
AI coding assistants have made my life a lot easier. I’ve created multiple personal projects in a day that would’ve taken me multiple days of figuring out frontend stuff.
It’s also helped me in my work, especially in refactoring. I don’t know how y’all are using them, but I get a lot of efficient use out of them.
Do you feel that turducken-style programming and differences in the current models’ ability to handle declarative vs imperative impacts realization of productivity gains?
AI is not the first technology to do this to people. I’ve been a software engineer for nearing 20 years now, and I’ve seen this happen with other technologies. People convinced it’s making them super productive, others not getting the same gains and internalizing it, thinking they’re to blame rather than the software. The Java ecosystem has been full of shitty technologies like that for most of the time Java has existed. Spring is probably one of the most harmful examples.