slazer2au@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 14:07
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It’s amazing what happens when management leave Devs alone to do actual work instead of calling SCRUM bullshit.
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 14:33
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That might have worked then. Not so sure nowadays. The work ethic was different back then.
Edit: I didn’t realize the can of worms I opened up. Hopefully it stirs a little bit of constructive conversation. I realize I have an unpopular opinion here. That’s ok. I wish all of you a prosperous and content life. I’m not here to stir up hate. I simply expressed my opinion. I’ve learned a little about how passionate some of you are about this topic. I never thought I would start such a hornet’s nest.
NoForwardslashS@sopuli.xyz
on 13 Jan 15:01
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People have no work ethic these days, they won’t even work for the exposure anymore.
Quetzalcutlass@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 18:21
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What are you talking about? They get plenty of exposure when they start up an OnlyFans on the side to make ends meet! /s
A_Union_of_Kobolds@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 15:02
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People still create great shit when left to their own devices and properly cared for
Workers in the 90s are no different from any others
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 15:32
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I was there in the 90s. Working full time. There was a noticeable difference in the work ethic from then to today.
nossaquesapao@lemmy.eco.br
on 13 Jan 15:34
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What kind of differences?
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 16:10
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Ok. I’ll bite. Even though I believe this conversation will go nowhere.
Differences I have seen in work ethic between the 90s and today:
Constantly complaining about being broke but refusing to work any overtime.
Refusing to do anything outside the scope of their job duties. Even if it’s something small and won’t take any extra time or energy off their current job duty.
Demanding or taking long breaks causing others to pick up their slack. And then acting like the victim.
Overly emotional about deadlines and jobs duties. Making decisions based on their feelings and not the job/project at hand.
People then would usually figure out solutions to problems without any supervision. Ingenuity was rewarded and favored. Today, people seem to prefer to be micro-managed. This could also be a change in employer culture as well.
Entitlement culture/attitude. More people today believe they are owed something without earning it. Hierarchical structures were more rigid, with clear distinctions between management and staff. Respect for authority was expected.
Employees were more likely to stay with one company for years or even decades, building loyalty and expertise within their organization.
I guess I could go on. And not all of this is due to employees, rather, management issues that have gotten worse over time. But I still believe the root cause is a negative change in people’s work ethic. This is obviously not all inclusive. These are just some examples of what I’ve noticed between now and then. I have been working full time since the 90s. Yes, it’s anecdotal. But you asked me. This is my opinion. It’s okay if people don’t agree with me. But I would find it hard to believe most people would disagree with all or some of these points especially if they have been working as long as I have.
Windex007@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 16:24
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If this is what you’re seeing, the problem isn’t the employees.
If you can say with a straight face that employees prefer to be micromanaged, that’s the biggest, brightest, blinding red flag I can even imagine.
If you’re seeing this, your company has a major issue.
LookBehindYouNowAndThen@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 16:44
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Entitlement culture/attitude. More people today believe they are owed something without earning it. Hierarchical structures were more rigid, with clear distinctions between management and staff. Respect for authority was expected.
This is the most middle-manager shit I’ve ever read. “Kids these days don’t respect me!”
I think you are mixing up cause and effect. Corporations stopped valuing their employees but expect the same kind of loyalty from when they used to actually pay enough. It’s normal for employees to feel demotivated and give less energy to a job that doesn’t respect them and is over eager to threaten and replace them.
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 16:56
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I think I made that clear at the end of my above post
ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 13 Jan 17:28
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And not all of this is due to employees, rather, management issues that have gotten worse over time. But I still believe the root cause is a negative change in people’s work ethic.
Personally I’d say you made the exact opposite clear while throwing a lil blame at the management’s way so it wouldn’t sound as disconnected from reality. Beatings will continue until morale improves I guess.
You got it backwards though. The root cause is not the change in work ethic. The change in work ethic is the symptom. People have to get nitpicky about breaks and such and show no loyalty entirely because companies stopped being loyal to their employees. This can be demarcated with the death of the pension.
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 19:12
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I’m not simping for big corporations. They definitely have issues. But how did they get that way? A change in work culture in my opinion. Also, if somebody saved %15 of their pay from the time they’re 18 until they’re ready to retire around the age of 62-65, they would be a multi-millionaire and able to live off monthly payments until they die. Assuming you invested in some mutual funds or something similar. Nothing too risky.
I’m curious what you think of it and how it might come into play with worker/employer relations.
Look, I have a good job and I am naturally frugal and a saver. I’m not complaining about how this is affecting me, even though it inevitably affects us all. But the data is the data. No amount of “well I think X Y and Z” is going to change the past slope of the numbers.
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 21:14
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In my opinion? A combination of greed and politicians selling us out. The same old story and history repeating itself. I’m not an expert in this field.
Personally I think if the government would get out of my way and I wasn’t forced to participate in this bullshit monetary system that’s controlled by a private bank, I’d be much better off. The american people were sold a lie.
heavy@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 16:48
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Its not my business but do you mind saying what industry you work or see this in?
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 16:58
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I’ve noticed it in every industry I’ve ever worked in over three decades
Perhaps you could give an example? Maybe someone can relate to it.
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 22:29
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I would. However, given the climate of the conversation, I am a little concerned that if I did disclose what industries I’ve worked in, it would only cause people to “shit” on what I do for a living. I’d rather not go there. I believe this issue is applicable to every industry.
If people were payed more most of those problems would evaporate. There used to be a middle class in this country that made enough money to justify dealing with their boss’s bullshit expectations. Now everyone is getting the bare minimum and management wonders why they’re getting minimum effort. If you want people to have a better work ethic it has to be worth it for them. Dangle a fuckin carrot once in a while, you know?
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 17:01
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If money was an issue, I would simply find a higher paying job. I’m not owed anything. I’m trying to do the best I can just like everybody else. I’ve never agreed 100% with what management does. I’m just happy to have a decent job that pays decently. I wasn’t handed this automatically. I worked my way up to it. I earned it.
ironhydroxide@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 19:03
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I’m not saying you didn’t work to get where you are, but if you ignore completely the chance and luck you had, then you’re just arguing in bad faith.
Even more so if you can’t see that people entering the workforce now have less chances and need more luck to get where you feel you worked hard to get.
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 19:17
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I don’t rely on luck. Too risky. I do what I have to do and use what I’m given to make the best of my situation. Complaining and blaming others got me nowhere. I’m simply pointing out what I’ve witnessed over the last three decades.
partial_accumen@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 19:53
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I don’t rely on luck. Too risky. I do what I have to do and use what I’m given to make the best of my situation.
You may not rely on luck, but do you recognize that you are at least the beneficiary of luck? You could be the exact same person you are born at two different times (or even the same time in two different geographies), and have drastically different opportunities available to you.
The fact that I am using my high tech device to entertain myself by replying to your comment that you made using your high tech device to entertain yourself means that we are both in the upper percentiles of luckiest humans to ever have lived.
I am sitting at my engineering job that I really like as I type this. I have a bachelors degree and two masters degrees. I have worked for this shit, and I have pushed through my chronic disease despite seeing images of the literal brain damage I have from it. I am STILL extremely fortunate to be where I am. Most humans who have ever been born literally had no path to get here regardless of their health or upbringing. And I’d guess that the same is true for a majority of today’s living humans.
And I do not mean those statements with a negative connotation. You should take some of that innate positive outlook you have for the world and develop a feeling of being grateful for your good fortune in life. It’s literally good for you.
To pretend that your situation is solely because of your positive attributes as an individual is pretty arrogant and not conducive to personal growth.
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 21:15
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Sure…I see your point. But I’m not gonna take my paycheck and go to the casino on the off chance I could double my money.
ironhydroxide@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 23:44
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That is not what was meant by anyone here mentioning luck. I would think any reasonable person would understand this.
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 23:58
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Ok. So why would I live my daily life with a guilt complex? Yes I realize I wasn’t born into a slave labor camp in North Korea. But why would I dwell on that? I’m focused on my current situation. And trying to make that better
partial_accumen@lemmy.world
on 14 Jan 00:36
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I’m focused on my current situation. And trying to make that better
Well, you’re doing that, but you’re also passing judgement on others (those you called out with your original “work ethic” comments) and painting them with a brush of laziness, or at the extreme, unethical behavior.
Ok. So why would I live my daily life with a guilt complex? Yes I realize I wasn’t born into a slave labor camp in North Korea. But why would I dwell on that?
This isn’t an effort to try to make you feel guilty for the luck you’ve had, its attempting to help you realize that not everyone has had the opportunities you have had in the past or continue to have. North Korea is an extreme example. It doesn’t need to be that extreme for someone to have not reached your levels of success even with the same level of effort on their part. A level of humility is important because it lets you recognize, in some capacity, you’ve had help getting where you are. That’s not something to be ashamed of either. Its something to be thankful for. More importantly, that others need help too and you may be in a position to contribute to that help in some major or minor way today or some point in the future.
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 14 Jan 00:47
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I love helping others. Especially my neighbors and loved ones. I realize I am fortunate. I don’t need a Lecture. I’m directing my comments towards people I can relate to. Obviously, I can’t relate to people that live in forced labor camps. I believe the majority of people commenting here are currently living in a “free” society and have had the same opportunities I’ve had.
We, as people, make choices everyday. Those choices have consequences. Good or bad. Life is weird. It’s like a stage. We can act all.we want. But really, all we want at the end of the day is clean water, good food and a loving family. If I lived in a tent or a shack, as long as I had that, I would be happy. I’m easy to please I guess
ironhydroxide@sh.itjust.works
on 14 Jan 00:56
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Agreed that’s all we want… now imagine you’re one of the younger generation, expected to do as much or more work, for less than enough to afford said clean water, good food, and a family (proof, birth rates are extremely low. In my case it’s because there’s no way I could afford a child. I can barely afford the clean water and good food)
So… what’s the problem then? Why is it a problem that the younger generation refuse to be taken advantage of… Oh sorry,I meant work their assess off to be given a pittance and laid off in 2 months, sorry not sorry, it just isn’t profitable enough.
partial_accumen@lemmy.world
on 14 Jan 03:35
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I believe the majority of people commenting here are currently living in a “free” society and have had the same opportunities I’ve had.
You can’t be serious.
Okay guys, I tried. I’ve hit my limit. I’m done. I’ll leave it to you others if you want to continue. This one believes, even now, that we’re all had the same opportunities he has. Yep, those with different skin colors, same opportunities. Different genitalia, same opportunities. Alternate sexual orientation, same opportunities. Born in different socio-economic conditions, you guessed it, same opportunities. Especially those born after about 1985 that entered the workforce during the worst financial crisis since 1929. All of us should have been equally successful. We just must not have tried hard enough because of “bad work ethic” that exists today. Thats the only explanation why we’re all not successful. /s
ironhydroxide@sh.itjust.works
on 14 Jan 00:49
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Seems to me more like you’re focused on how the younger generation doesn’t work hard enough, they aren’t where you are. Definitely proof they don’t work as hard as you to get where you are.
tacosanonymous@lemm.ee
on 13 Jan 17:44
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You could open up a new business cleaning boots.
I don’t even know where to begin.
RageAgainstTheRich@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 17:50
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You sound like a bit of an exhausting cunt mate…
partial_accumen@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 18:43
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I didn’t downvote you even though I disagree with you.
All of the examples you gave of differences have a distinct difference between working in the 90s and now. In the 90s we did all of the things you cite aren’t happening today because it paid off with something better later. It could be a raise in pay, a promotion, or even just experience that could be leveraged at a future job earning more. It was also the time of the final Gen-X’ers entering the workforce, and there were far fewer of us than prior generations that age. This meant there was at least a form of scarcity of entry level workers so anyone that wanted a job could get one that would cover their basic bills. Employers would also train entry level people because there weren’t other options for bodies to do the jobs. We put up with being treated like crap in the hierarchy because we saw that if we worked the hierarchy we would rise. We took risks professionally that would be innovative or creative that created a great product for our employer that would frequently work out. If the professional risk didn’t pay off, we’d likely still be employed or at worst could get another job of near the same level without issue.
In short, we did all of those things in the 90s for the promise of a better tomorrow, and back then, there was one. Workers today know there isn’t a better tomorrow, likely only a worse one. So why should they take the same risks we did professionally if they are not only far less likely to benefit, and are in a much more precarious position with far higher debts (student loans) and far few resources (lack of savings or real estate ownership)?
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 19:08
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I’ve heard that argument being made before. That people don’t think there is a better tomorrow. I suppose I could blame it partially on the doom scrolling people do daily on their phones. Personally speaking, I believe there are always opportunities and a better tomorrow.
partial_accumen@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 19:23
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I’ve heard that argument being made before. That people don’t think there is a better tomorrow. I suppose I could blame it partially on the doom scrolling people do daily on their phones.
A younger worker today can do zero doom scrolling and still see their 6 figure student loan debt statements every month. They can look at their take-home pay after subtracting their high living expenses then checking the cost of real estate to see that owning a home going to be perpetually out-of-reach. They can look at the last 4-5 years of their income and see that any appreciation going forward isn’t likely to change their situation.
Personally speaking, I believe there are always opportunities and a better tomorrow.
This is another change from the 90s to today. In the 90s it was a given that there are opportunities and a better tomorrow. We were raised with actual first hand experience of optimism in the working world. For today’s younger workers it has declined to a possibility of opportunities and a better tomorrow. Don’t discount Millennials that entered the workforce right as the Financial Crisis of 2007-2008 was starting. As young adults in the 90s as GenX, we had nothing like that. The worse we had was the dotcom bubble burst in 1999 or 2000, and even then it just meant finding another jump of which there were many. Gen Z saw Millennials trying to be successful do what we Gen X-ers did and failing (because the game had changed). Is it any wonder Gen Z isn’t even trying to play the old game when they see the game is now stacked against them?
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 19:55
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I also see this student loan thing being tossed around all the time. If people don’t intend to pay them back, then don’t take out a loan. It’s really that simple. Stay out of debt. I can’t stand banks. I loathe them. I refuse to owe a bank or anybody else for that matter any money. The public has been sold a lie. I used to be in a bad situation like what you’re describing. I woke up one day and told myself enough is enough. I’m sick of the debt. I’m sick of blaming everybody else for my shortcomings. I paid off all my debts, bought a house, paid that off and now I try and save as much as I can. I didn’t wait for anybody to rescue me. Nobody is gonna rescue me. The government, a bank, family. Nobody. I’m responsible for my own actions and I take accountability. The only way people can change their situation for the better is to think positively and work hard towards your goals. I don’t know of any other way.
MonkeMischief@lemmy.today
on 13 Jan 20:40
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I see you’re somewhat fixated on the “attitude problem” bit, but you’re conveniently leaving out the circumstances. The labor situation right now is starting to swing back to how it was in say, the 19th and 20th centuries.
Oh yeah, they’re trying to bring back all the classics: Smashing unions, company towns paying in company scrip, child labor, inhuman working hours, dangerous factories, you name it.
That you had the opportunity to decide you were sick of things sucking and just go do something about it, is a privilege you didn’t have control over. You did have control over recognizing and seizing those opportunities. But this can be an uncomfortable distinction because it somewhat undermines the “I did it all by myself with sheer grit and chest hair” narrative.
I’m what they’d call a "millennial " and I see lots of your points in my experience. I see younger people who are absolutely mind boggling with being unable to problem-solve, for instance, and I also see oldies who, in 2025, have avoided learning anything new since they graduated highschool in the 70’s or something, and simply get mad or frustrated that things have changed instead of doing something about it. I’ve also seen complete geniuses that were like 12 years old repairing their own electronics.
My point being, there have always been pragmatic people and helpless-by-choice people.
I agree there’s lots of avenues to funding for school that don’t involve a loan, but that’s not cut and dry either. If a decent school isn’t in their neighborhood they can’t crash with mom and dad, for instance. If it’s out of state? Man, how the heck couldn’t you take out a loan?
There’s also the time factor. To work enough to get you through school without taking a loan, if you didn’t get SIGNIFICANT grant money, you wouldn’t have time for school, unless maybe you were okay with your Bachelor’s being a 6-8 year degree.
Ah. Time.
People are working earlier now too. They can’t just “defer adulthood” to go to school instead. Heck, some states were bringing back child labor shortly after COVID! I wonder how many of those kids will afford school with money or time.
They’re on a treadmill they can’t step off, because their family probably needs the money they pull in, because so many jobs disappeared, and education is so abysmal people can’t shift their skills when that job disappears.
To add to that crap-sandwich, their hours are worth less, and they’re expected to do more work with less coworkers because labor is expensive and management is cheap.
Nowadays the reward for hard, exceptional work, is more work and a higher expectation, and if you’re REALLY convincing, like $.08+ an hour. I’m not even kidding. Statistically, you are an expendable “human resource”, not a valued asset.
Observe how the common knowledge now is “The best way to get a raise is to switch jobs.” Loyalty is punished.
Overtime? Ha! Most jobs put a lot of effort into making sure you work really hard right up to that line, and will actually penalize you if you try to go over it. Other jobs find ways around it, like slapping you with a laughably low (they’ll call it “competitive”) “exempt” salary.
Maybe, just maybe, in the 90’s, workers were still somewhat respected and valued. Today they’re a cost to minimize in any way possible to please shareholders with upward-jaggy lines.
People have a shitty work ethic because they see through the crap. Working a job in the modern age is what business folk would call “a raw deal.”
If we look at this through a Great American Entrepreneurial lens, going by numbers and common sense…working a job is foolish, and only marginally better than not having one at all.
If anything the younger generations are getting more clever about sourcing income from wherever they can, with endless “side hustles.” Because their bosses sure as hell won’t pay them.
(Fun fact: Wage theft is the most prominent form of theft!)
Sadly there’s a cost to that hustling “work ethic” to keep everything together. Skyrocketing lonliness and suicide rates.
It’s easy to jump on “doomscrolling zoomers” but we also need to consider that the Internet is merely a communication platform, and look at WHY we have a world that causes literal children to develop a sardonic collective humor about “burning oceans (again)” and “dying in the climate wars”, and never retiring, or owning a house, and that having a family is not only out of reach, but cruel and irresponsible hubris under a world of rapidly decaying empires locked in constant bloody conflicts at the behest of private interests.
So, I’m glad things worked out for you. I’m being sincere here. I’m glad loyalty paid off, and you could do something with your life. May the rest of your days b
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 21:08
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Wow that was a lot. Forgive me for not replying with as much. I don’t have the time.
My only question to all of this is, what is your solution to these problems? If it involves the government, then I have news for you. The government isn’t going to help anybody. My point being if these problems you say exist and are such huge problems, then what is the answer? How does society solve it? I’ve tried to answer these questions myself and it always comes back to asking myself one question. What can I DO TODAY, to make things better for myself and my family?
RagingRobot@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 22:16
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The solution is to stop working for shit companies or only provide what they pay for so they have trouble finding help and pay more. The very thing you are bitching about. The free market right?
MonkeMischief@lemmy.today
on 13 Jan 22:20
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No problem, I’m aware that I tend to essay-out into a ramble on these tough topics. Thanks for hearing me out!
So, “my solution”: idealistically? Worker organizing. I see a resurgence of unions which is very inspiring, and they’ve been effective at winning decent pay and benefits. The news has been quietly ignoring and underplaying strike waves across the nation (and the world), because it makes their bosses nervous. They’re also ignoring the absolutely blatant retaliation against strikers from corporations.
(Remember 19th and 20th centuries all over again? Thankfully they’re not bringing in PMCs and riot cops for strikers…yet.) If anybody is “entitled without earning it”, it’s the corpos who feel entitled to cheap complicit bodies for their profit machines.
The government isn’t going to help anybody.
Especially not this one. God help us.
Reagan’s measures to prevent certain industries from striking, like air traffic controllers, and recently seen with railway workers, is just one of many ways the pro-capital government keeps the workers from getting too “uppity.”
Returning to a New Deal economic policy would help immensely. But 50’s red-scare and trickle-down propaganda is still sunk in deep.
What can I DO TODAY, to make things better for myself and my family?
Short answer? Band together and survive. The “screw you, got mine” individualism/exceptionalism myth has destroyed our culture and made us a nation of suspicious strangers. Perfect for selling garbage to and farming labor from.
So we need to involve our neighbors and coworkers in mutual support. You’re right, the government won’t help, your boss won’t help. Who’s left?
Just “keeping my head down and looking out for me and mine” is how we get picked off. This is also why media thinktanks love to stoke identity politics. It gets people infighting instead of massing.
So I’m just doing what I can to do my own thing, and survive, and getting people talking, and loving my neighbor as myself as much as I can, and trying not to feel powerless against overwhelming apathy and oppression from all sides.
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 23:55
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Interesting. I used to have some involvement in a union. In fact, I was a regional VP for a huge union at one point and time. And while I agree with the union premise of organizing, I believe it’s an antiquated solution. The union I belonged to also delved a lot into social issues which I didn’t believe had any place in what I was fighting for…which was fair wages, decent working hours and getting the tools we needed for our jobs.
Instead they focused on social issues that had nothing to do with my work environment. They ran me out of that union. I used to be excited about going to meetings and getting people involved. They quickly showed me what their ulterior motives were. I figured out what the leader of that union was making. I saw how they wined and dined me at fancy dinners and hotels at Las Vegas hotels and casinos. I could see how they were grooming me. All they cared about was membership numbers. They don’t care how I signed them up. Tell these employees anything they wanted to hear. Sign that card.
Eventually, I had enough. I resigned my position and took an early retirement (I’m working in a different field now). Not a single one of them asked me why. Not a single one of them were sorry to see me go. Not a single one of them gave shit. I wasn’t useful to them anymore. I had a big influence on the workplace. They knew that and they exploited that. I do feel bad for the people I misled into signing up for that union that I believed in (brainwashed) at the time. Meanwhile I was being flown across the nation and being wined and dined on their dime.
So yes. While I believe organizing and pushing back on employers to make working environments better, I also believe that unions have become the very thing they claim to fight against.
I’m curious to know what your opinion is on unions today. Because in their current form, I don’t believe they are beneficial to everybody. We were actively told that if they weren’t with us then they are against us. I wanted to show the non union members.what we were capable of. However, I wasn’t able to due to holding this hostile attitude towards non members. Plus, we were not able to show any real progress. Basically just “sign up and you’ll see. Be in the club.”
TBH I get what you are saying about unions. They are hard to do right. The problem is that without them we’re pretty much cooked. It’s not even management in most cases, but the owners.
At one company, I contributed to cancer research, we were saving actual people. But the owners decided that selling the whole thing to the Americans who can put it into their ponzi scheme of health insurance makes more money. That’s because the average American pays 50x as much for this particular service than an EU citizen.
The people who were contracting and were thus not covered by the union were immediately canned. The rest we could fight and get a dignified way to leave for.
And I was one of their hard working people. I got one particular process that took days down to taking minutes. And not even for the money, but for the satisfaction of getting shit done. Someone from the new owners who probably didn’t even know what we were doing was trying to outsource everything to India, so everything we did went in the trash.
And this was one of my better jobs. I’ve had way worse. And I’m not the kind of person to wallow in my shit either, so I went and got therapy and changed careers so let’s see how that works out.
But going back to the original argument, I know a ton of people who would make something nice for the sake of it, like the GoldenEye devs. They are usually on the younger side, they usually get punished for it, and they usually end up needing and usually not getting therapy. Workers in general get absolutely no input into their work by policy.
MonkeMischief@lemmy.today
on 16 Jan 19:25
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They are usually on the younger side, they usually get punished for it, and they usually end up needing and usually not getting therapy.
Nailed it. Public library here. I would often notice patterns with hangups where people didn’t understand the procedures, for example taking an accessibility seat when they didn’t require it, because it wasn’t clearly marked. So I’d make nice clear signs for such things that solved the problem, and I’d get punished.
I would try to take pride in my work, I wanted to share specific knowledge I knew in workshops. I was told “That’s not your role, go back where you belong.”
And then they wanted to have talks with me like “It seems like you’re not happy to be here.” Wow, no shit?
Retail job before that, a district manager visits and notices a simple sorting mechanism I designed for getting small products out from awkwardly deep shelves using ribbons to pull the stack forward.
“What is this?” She asks. I proudly begin to explain.
“Oh you misunderstand. . .” She cuts me off with utmost disrespect. ". . .I don’t care. " And demands it be done some other way.
I was too young and desperate to send an effective message by simply leaving and never coming back.
The days of meritocracy or rewarding “out of the box thinking” or hard work are statistically dead. Unions at least have a chance of putting these egomaniacal choads in their place.
MonkeMischief@lemmy.today
on 16 Jan 20:04
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I’m curious to know what your opinion is on unions today. Because in their current form, I don’t believe they are beneficial to everybody.
I’m sorry to hear about your experience and I don’t disagree with you, sadly! Unions in their current state are rather flawed!
In the public sector where I worked, the union was pretty crap as well. It was mostly run by older people who were simply coasting along to retirement, so whenever the bosses would say “We need to suspend cost of living increases” or some other detriment to everybody else (like part-timers who weren’t allowed to be union)…
The union would simply roll over and show their bellies to get rubs and treats from the establishment without a fight. Again, the union leadership were just coasting to retirement, so they couldn’t care less if they tried. Absolutely useless. “Bargaining.” Yeah, right!
I’ve always thought seniority alone is a terrible metric with which to rank leadership, and it establishes yet another bullshit unjustified hierarchy just like the job itself does.
If anybody can say “What I say goes, because I get to make the rules.”, then we’re doing it all wrong.
If there’s “wining and dining” for “campaigning”, we’re doing it all wrong.
Unions should be a democratic collective, not yet another pathetic internal power struggle.
Unions have been de-fanged by corporate lobbyists under the guise of being “recognized.” In my eyes, if they’re jumping through hoops so their bosses “allow” them, what is the point?
The purest form of a union is the workers grouping up and saying :
“We will be treated better if you want your profit machine to keep running. Otherwise, things will start getting very painful for you, financially or otherwise.”
Bosses should be afraid to piss off the people who make them money. Instead, they feel entitled to a ready and desperate wageslave pool, where they can require PHDs and pay $20 an hour and demand unpaid overtime and require “permission” to be sick.
I’ve learned organizing a strike without jumping through a ton of hoops is called a “wildcat strike” and we’ve been conned into thinking that’s “frowned upon.” I personally think it sounds badass and should happen more often.
Instead, modern unions are “permitted” to exist, so long as they don’t actually threaten profits too much, and they’re run by people who want to “be the boss” themselves.
They’re even told when it can be “illegal to strike”!
So basically, the system needs a rework, but unions as an idea must be saved and protected if we want to avoid a complete Mordor scenario. Capitalists would still resort to slavery, company stores, child labor, and more, if unions past didn’t put up a very real fight.
Things like the 40 hour work week, FMLA, and sick days were literally bought with blood. And today we’ve raised generations to be complacent and docile to cruel masters.
Especially ironic in a country established in rebellion to a monarchy, who loves to eagle-screech about how “free” it is.
“Labor day” barely has meaning anymore, and we’re only conditioned to memorialize the veterans of foreign wars. Holidays to solemnly remember the sacrifice of both are now an excuse to grift oversized pickup trucks and mattresses.
In the end, unions should be agile, cunning, and cooperative representation of the entire worker base, rather than clubs of broken old men saying “Screw you, got mine.”
Anarchist cooperation is surprisingly effective in small groups with common aims. The power-hungry know this, which is why they come down on any hint of autonomy without mercy.
partial_accumen@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 21:05
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I also see this student loan thing being tossed around all the time. If people don’t intend to pay them back, then don’t take out a loan. It’s really that simple.
Its not that simple. You’re using the benefit of hindsight with the knowledge you’ve gained as an adult and are applying it to the mindset of a 18 year old that is making the decision that they don’t understand the consequences of, and are being advised to do by adults they trust.
Stay out of debt.
This is generally good advice, but not always. There is useful debt, especially when you are younger, which is the prime time that young adults take on student loans.
I can’t stand banks. I loathe them. I refuse to owe a bank or anybody else for that matter any money.
That is certainly your right, but it may not be the most beneficial path for someone in your situation. Living purely on cash (as in money belonging to you not borrowed) means missing out on opportunities to those with solid transportation, education (not just college), ownership of your housing, and possibly needed medical procedures. Unless you’re starting with money, the timeline for establishing yourself and meeting your basic needs is far longer without borrowing at all.
I used to be in a bad situation like what you’re describing. I woke up one day and told myself enough is enough. I’m sick of the debt. I paid off all my debts,
I went through the same thing. However, we both went through this long after being 18 years old, which is when many would have taking out student loans. So even we didn’t have the wherewithal to avoid poor financial choices, we were just lucky enough not to have been born at a time when a 6 figure student loan for a bachelors degree isn’t uncommon.
bought a house, paid that off and now I try and save as much as I can.
That is a perfect example of a good use of debt. You took out a mortgage to buy a house, and gave the bank money in interest while you worked to pay it off. Not all debt is bad. Imagine if you’d tried to buy a house just by saving up cash.
I didn’t wait for anybody to rescue me. Nobody is gonna rescue me. The government, a bank, family. Nobody. I’m responsible for my own actions and I take accountability.
That is a good mindset, but recognize what it took in life before you arrived there. I imagine that was a long time after your 18th birthday. Further, you weren’t in as deep as a hole as many young people are today. If you were paying rent, it was a smaller fraction of your income than younger people pay today. If you had a car (even a used one), it would have cost you far less to buy then than today, and far cheaper to maintain and repair then compared to now. Most importantly, you had years of experience and probably had professional employment when you made your realization. You weren’t 2 years graduated from college without any professional employment because the 2008 Financial Crisis essentially stopped all hiring for a couple of years.
The younger generations didn’t have what you had to overcome things. So they can’t take exactly the same actions you took and expect the same positive outcome.
The only way people can change their situation for the better is to think positively and work hard towards your goals. I don’t know of any other way.
That worked for both of us, but we had the benefit of growing up (and entering the workforce) when we did. We got to establish ourselves before the rules changed.
The other difference between us in the 90s and the generations now is that when life kicked us down, there was a small effort to stand up. The consequences of failure (even with no mistakes made) can have decades long consequences to recover from. The reason I point this out is that you and I have had it better than those young today. What worked for us, rarely works for them anymore. Its important to recognize that when we try to apply our past experience to those experiencing it now. The time difference changes the rules and outcomes.
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 21:19
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So with all that being said, has the education system failed society? They seem to teach people how to be good consumers. And that’s about it
Also, I agree, taking a loan for a home is the only debt I agree with only because real estate is a tangible asset and will always appreciate.
partial_accumen@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 21:31
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So with all that being said, has the education system failed society? They seem to teach people how to be good consumers. And that’s about it
I’m too far removed from the modern education system to be able to have a trustworthy complete opinion on it. If there are any educators reading, please weigh in, I’m interested in your answer.
However, one of the few things I don’t see taught comprehensively (and this was true of us in the 90s too) is: Critical Thinking
I had a few teachers or professors throughout my primary and secondary education that DID teach this in concert with their subject matter expertise. These men and women had a profound impact on my mindset and education I still benefit from today. I don’t know if certain lines of study have more or less of it, but the practice around exploring “why” something is instead of just “what” is in short supply in most folks I run into today.
Also, I agree, taking a loan for a home is the only debt I agree with only because real estate is a tangible asset and will always appreciate.
For your situation that may be the appropriate answer. For others if they are able bodied and desire to work, but don’t have transportation, it is worth taking on debt to buy an affordable vehicle of some kind that can get them too and from work.
If a different person is have debilitating pain from an infected tooth and can’t work, taking on debt to get the tooth pulled instead of dying of sepsis is also good debt.
RagingRobot@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 22:13
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I intended to pay mine back. I took out 30k in 2005 and I pay $300 a month since 2009. I owe 40k now. Is that ok with you for the government to screw kids so hard on loans? No wonder we don’t trust anyone for their word. I wish it had happened to you so you could see.
But you are just up there in management demanding respect so you would never know.
Why work if your pay check doesn’t pay all your bills? That’s the main incentive to work and you act like it’s not important at all and we should just suck it up. Fuck you
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 22:20
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No I don’t think it’s ok for banks and the government to fuck people over. And just like every other debt, it’s too easy to get and much too hard to pay back. They prey on naive people that are sold the lie that they’re going to be some kind of astronaut or celebrity doctor if they take out a 100k loan for an “education”. Social media portrays people working these dream jobs and flexing their cyber trucks. This ain’t reality. But it’s sold as reality. Unfortunately, people are suckered into thinking that a 100k education = cyber trucks and log cabins at lake Tahoe.
Sounds like a problem with your company culture. I don’t think your description fits the industry as a whole.
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 19:15
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I’m not strictly speaking of the place I work for. I actually like my job. Not a fan of the management. My argument is that a lot of people’s work ethic has dwindled. Really all it does is punish their coworkers. You think the CEO or upper management cares about people’s feelings or how the job got done? I don’t. We’re all replaceable. I do the best I can with what I’m given. Complaining gets me nowhere
Again, what you’re saying doesn’t apply to the industry as a whole. Or maybe you’re just one of the folks who thinks Americans should adopt the 996 work ethic?
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 22:30
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Given how passionate people are about this topic, I’d say it applies to much of the working class.
wtf… so tired of being told i have no work ethic, when i probably work more than you ever had to at my age, for peanuts. I will never own a home. my company doesn’t give two fucks about me. I can’t even afford glasses, i can’t go to the doctor. but i should be kissing feet and never complaining? your mentality is what killed opportunity in my generation. like, “people prefer to be micromanaged?” how can you possibly think that
No this was a completely unironic old man “kids these days!” rant.
Duamerthrax@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 17:43
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Small teams being allowed to do what they want can still give good results, but you aren’t going to see that at major companies. I almost solely play indie games by micro or solo dev teams.
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 22:32
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That’s a great point. I do support indie games when I enjoy them. Not a fan of the micro transaction slop that huge publishers are pushing
You could also afford to work on failed projects because houses and healthcare costed two acorns and a peanut.
lightnsfw@reddthat.com
on 13 Jan 21:56
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Work ethic today is fine in places that aren’t spreading their people as thin as possible. There’s always going to be shitheads but for the most part when you see “poor work ethic” it’s because everyone’s burnt tf out and just doesn’t care any more.
Outtatime@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 22:14
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There’s some truth to this
Rookwood@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 13 Jan 23:02
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You’re just wrong. Devs today work far more than those devs did. Devs today work insane hours. It’s nearly physically impossible to work more hours than devs do today.
Windex007@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 15:11
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Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 14:15
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Reminds me of the graphing calculator on Macs. Guy wanted it in system 7 so bad he ignored getting fired, broke into the office, and snuck it into the master build.
MelodiousFunk@slrpnk.net
on 13 Jan 14:26
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I cut my teeth on system 7 (well, 7.5) and this is news to me. Did it get quickly nuked?
Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 14:28
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Nope, it’s been part of Mac OS ever since, partly because math teachers loved how it let kids play with math.
I think I found the gap in my knowledge: it looks like it only shipped with PPC versions. I had a 68k Performa as a teenager. By the time I got a PPC box it was well into system 8’s lifespan and I had stopped opening every little thing, probably due to internet providing those dopamine hits lol.
Thank you, TIL!
brbposting@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 17:44
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Dozens of people collaborated spontaneously, motivated by loyalty, friendship, or the love of craftsmanship. We were hackers, creating something for the sheer joy of making it work.
I’m moved by this. I feel that this is what HN used to be maybe 10 years ago. Now its just VC crap and making money as quickly as possible with lock-in market-corning crapware.
LanguageIsCool@lemmy.world
on 14 Jan 06:43
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I worked in video games in the 2000, same feeling, good memories and shenanigans (in Ghost Force, we hid a level with pigs and exploding penguins for example), and I call most of the coworkers my friends still.
Now it’s just crap it seems.
Maybe it was the raw new stuff getting thrown at you all the time. Today it’s just “a PC”, slightly faster. Same engine.
Or I’m getting old :-D
Brodysseus@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 14 Jan 08:05
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Whoa that was so good.
Do you know where I could find more stuff like that? I read “In the beginning was the command line” not too long ago and loved that.
Nobody is allowed to pick Oddjob! House rules in every house I’ve played in.
CaptDust@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 15:34
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My house rules don’t have an explicit rule - go ahead and pick Oddjob - but know we will loudly judge you and team up to ensure that mistake doesn’t happen again.
We allowed Oddjob to be chosen, but then the other 3 players would be allowed to team up and murder you on sight.
Plus, you were legally allowed to look at their quarter of the screen to see where they were at and kill them until they picked someone else.
Nature always adapts.
The_Picard_Maneuver@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 14:27
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I don’t think I’d like it now, but back before two-thumbstick FPS games existed, I didn’t even question it.
bamboo@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 13 Jan 14:50
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There was a controller layout for Goldeneye and Perfect Dark where you used two N64 controllers, so you had two analog sticks and two Z buttons. It was extremely awkward to use A or B to cycle through weapons or open doors because of the button placement, but Goldeneye was actually the first two-thumbstick FPS game I played.
The_Picard_Maneuver@lemmy.world
on 13 Jan 14:53
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MonkeMischief@lemmy.today
on 13 Jan 21:49
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Fun fact, you could use the second controller to aim and shoot (without a reticle) during cutscenes! Really funny and awkward when you can kill major characters (including Bond) during a cutscene and of course the game proceeds like it never happened. :p
(Maybe only during the end-mission cutscenes. I can’t remember 100%)
jballs@sh.itjust.works
on 13 Jan 18:32
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Yeah GoldenEye is one of those games that was absolutely incredible at the time it came out - but is painful to go back to now. Which is too bad, because the game was amazing and had a ton of replayability at the time.
Someone else said the same thing a couple weeks ago but I had the opposite experience. When it came out I’d already been playing stuff like Doom on PC so I already knew the controls on for GE were awkward, but I made the adaptation back then. Now it’s still in muscle memory.
Hell yeah that’s awesome! I played a lot of GE back in the day, so the muscle memory has got to still be there for me too. Wonder how many hours it’d take to unlock it.
MonkeMischief@lemmy.today
on 13 Jan 20:50
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I would say 007 Nightfire, my experience being on the GameCube, perfected the Goldeneye control scheme formula. That game was a joy to play.
To be fair, that was probably the worst controller ever made. Even the Duke was more friendly, just gave cramps.
Jimmycrackcrack@lemmy.ml
on 14 Jan 05:05
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I loved that controller I think it’s such a shame it’s so universally panned. Don’t get me wrong, I wish it had dual sticks and I also wish the stupid main joystick wasn’t built such that it breaks terribly from normal use, I also would have appreciated if they hadn’t put those stupid ridged rings on the stick that shred up your skin, but I still think it was really innovative and fun to use and for the most part, pretty comfortable including it’s alternate mode of operation with the D-pad.
Don’t forget the (at the time) most arcade-accurate version of the original Donkey Kong, too. Which they technically shouldn’t have done, because DK was in legal dispute.
I bought STALKER 2, a masterpiece of post apocalyptic fiction and storytelling.
I was running the game on launch, an old friend calls me up on Discord, and says:
“So how is it?”
I say: “I don’t know yet, I just got to the first town past the tutorial.”
He says: “No, I mean the multiplayer.”
I lost the ability to think for a good 30-60 seconds trying to formulate the right string of words to respond with, from the psychic damage he’d inflicted with the presumption that it was a live service multiplayer game.
I think capitalism has weaponized brain rot into profits. As long as people open their wallets and not their brains, things will continue as planned. We’re literally paying for it.
Machinist@lemmy.world
on 14 Jan 03:36
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What is a live service multiplayer shooter game and how is it different from like old school duke nukem 3D multiplayer?
I’ve been seeing the term “live service” and I can’t get a clear answer from Google. My computer gaming days are mostly behind me and I don’t always keep up.
Live service means the content comes from the company’s servers, and likely changes rapidly. The quintessential example is Fortnite. Updates are expected, not merely necessary fixes. Duke Nukem 3D had all the content installed on your computer from day one, without expectation that it would change (unless you made your own maps, or downloaded maps other USERS made).
Live service also means with every update are new forms of monetization (cough cough skin microtransactions), because according to the c suite, live service means continuous profit, or whatever the fuck that means
I escaped into Fallout 3 for a while in my late twenties, for instance. Multiplayer shooters are not very enjoyable to me. I don’t care to build the muscle memory to get good at it.
In general, gaming is no longer important to me. I do still play some Tetris, and my girl likes watching me play Zelda so it’s a good way for us to have some couch time before bed.
My life is pretty good, I have an easy wonderful marriage, I don’t need that sort of escape anymore. Have had trouble with alcohol since 2020.
My wife has had problems in the past with mobile puzzle games like Candy Crush. From what I understand, those sorts of games are particularly effective at catching women 20 and up.
Multiplayer shooters are particularly effective at catching boys and young men. I don’t have a source but I’m pretty sure most of the people playing shooters are pretty stereotypically male.
Anyhow, yeah, the right kind of ‘brain’ is shorthand for cis-het males ages 12-25, at a guess. And yada yada, other gendered folks will get caught as well but probably aren’t the primary target for fortnite or whatever shooter.
Croquette@sh.itjust.works
on 15 Jan 12:01
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Live service games and mobile games use the same psychological tricks to keep people coming back and entice people to buy microtransactions.
After that, the theme of the game appeal to different folks.
I’ve learned to recognize my triggers, but it took a lot of conscious efforts to achieve that. I still buy some microtransactions from time to time for free games I play a lot, but this is a conscious decision I make and not a trigger making me buy things.
And even then, I feel the temptations every time a cool skin is put straight in my face. The psychology behind all that has been distilled to a science and used against us.
vulgarcynic@sh.itjust.works
on 14 Jan 04:08
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Live service means there are constant “content” updates being released by the developer/publisher.
This can be character skins, weapon skins or other cosmetics, new maps or modes, new classes, skills or really anything. A lot of times these are wrapped up in to “battle passes” time limited, purchaseable collections of stuff designed to keep players engaging with the game daily for carrots being dangled in front of them. Most of these are also time limited so if you don’t jump through all of the Hoops before the timer expires you no longer have access to the content that you were playing for and paying for.
To relate to old school gaming think of them like mini-expansion packs. The part that most people take issue with is the strategy behind the majority of them.
Almost all live service games are designed to keep players running on the hedonistic treadmill looking for the dopamine hit of that next unlock. In the more egregious free-to-play games you see that crafted through dark patterns in a way that incentivizes users to buy shortcut items through the marketplace to either automatically collect the ranks needed for the unlock or provide double accrual rate for whatever the experience marker is.
The reason they are coined lives service is due the nature of them receiving this constant update drip in a manner that would be live as opposed to static in traditional, Old School multiplayer games where you may see a large expansion every once in awhile but certainly not a weekly or monthly drip feed of new shit for the players to grind away at trying to unlock.
My play was to always throw a ton of mines everywhere and just listen to the boom.
SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world
on 14 Jan 16:33
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I would do this in Far Cry before raiding a base. Plant a few mines around the approaches to the base in case the alarm got tripped. Always fun to hear the “We’re coming in from the north!” BOOM
But_my_mom_says_im_cool@lemmy.world
on 14 Jan 07:50
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Pulling Mountain Dew and dorito fueled all nighters with my friends playing this game are such core memories.
threaded - newest
It’s amazing what happens when management leave Devs alone to do actual work instead of calling SCRUM bullshit.
That might have worked then. Not so sure nowadays. The work ethic was different back then.
Edit: I didn’t realize the can of worms I opened up. Hopefully it stirs a little bit of constructive conversation. I realize I have an unpopular opinion here. That’s ok. I wish all of you a prosperous and content life. I’m not here to stir up hate. I simply expressed my opinion. I’ve learned a little about how passionate some of you are about this topic. I never thought I would start such a hornet’s nest.
People have no work ethic these days, they won’t even work for the exposure anymore.
What are you talking about? They get plenty of exposure when they start up an OnlyFans on the side to make ends meet! /s
People still create great shit when left to their own devices and properly cared for
Workers in the 90s are no different from any others
I was there in the 90s. Working full time. There was a noticeable difference in the work ethic from then to today.
What kind of differences?
Ok. I’ll bite. Even though I believe this conversation will go nowhere.
Differences I have seen in work ethic between the 90s and today:
Constantly complaining about being broke but refusing to work any overtime.
Refusing to do anything outside the scope of their job duties. Even if it’s something small and won’t take any extra time or energy off their current job duty.
Demanding or taking long breaks causing others to pick up their slack. And then acting like the victim.
Overly emotional about deadlines and jobs duties. Making decisions based on their feelings and not the job/project at hand.
People then would usually figure out solutions to problems without any supervision. Ingenuity was rewarded and favored. Today, people seem to prefer to be micro-managed. This could also be a change in employer culture as well.
Entitlement culture/attitude. More people today believe they are owed something without earning it. Hierarchical structures were more rigid, with clear distinctions between management and staff. Respect for authority was expected.
Employees were more likely to stay with one company for years or even decades, building loyalty and expertise within their organization.
I guess I could go on. And not all of this is due to employees, rather, management issues that have gotten worse over time. But I still believe the root cause is a negative change in people’s work ethic. This is obviously not all inclusive. These are just some examples of what I’ve noticed between now and then. I have been working full time since the 90s. Yes, it’s anecdotal. But you asked me. This is my opinion. It’s okay if people don’t agree with me. But I would find it hard to believe most people would disagree with all or some of these points especially if they have been working as long as I have.
If this is what you’re seeing, the problem isn’t the employees.
If you can say with a straight face that employees prefer to be micromanaged, that’s the biggest, brightest, blinding red flag I can even imagine.
If you’re seeing this, your company has a major issue.
This is the most middle-manager shit I’ve ever read. “Kids these days don’t respect me!”
I think you are mixing up cause and effect. Corporations stopped valuing their employees but expect the same kind of loyalty from when they used to actually pay enough. It’s normal for employees to feel demotivated and give less energy to a job that doesn’t respect them and is over eager to threaten and replace them.
I think I made that clear at the end of my above post
Personally I’d say you made the exact opposite clear while throwing a lil blame at the management’s way so it wouldn’t sound as disconnected from reality. Beatings will continue until morale improves I guess.
You got it backwards though. The root cause is not the change in work ethic. The change in work ethic is the symptom. People have to get nitpicky about breaks and such and show no loyalty entirely because companies stopped being loyal to their employees. This can be demarcated with the death of the pension.
I’m not simping for big corporations. They definitely have issues. But how did they get that way? A change in work culture in my opinion. Also, if somebody saved %15 of their pay from the time they’re 18 until they’re ready to retire around the age of 62-65, they would be a multi-millionaire and able to live off monthly payments until they die. Assuming you invested in some mutual funds or something similar. Nothing too risky.
Have you ever seen this data?
wtfhappenedin1971.com
I’m curious what you think of it and how it might come into play with worker/employer relations.
Look, I have a good job and I am naturally frugal and a saver. I’m not complaining about how this is affecting me, even though it inevitably affects us all. But the data is the data. No amount of “well I think X Y and Z” is going to change the past slope of the numbers.
In my opinion? A combination of greed and politicians selling us out. The same old story and history repeating itself. I’m not an expert in this field.
Personally I think if the government would get out of my way and I wasn’t forced to participate in this bullshit monetary system that’s controlled by a private bank, I’d be much better off. The american people were sold a lie.
Its not my business but do you mind saying what industry you work or see this in?
I’ve noticed it in every industry I’ve ever worked in over three decades
Perhaps you could give an example? Maybe someone can relate to it.
I would. However, given the climate of the conversation, I am a little concerned that if I did disclose what industries I’ve worked in, it would only cause people to “shit” on what I do for a living. I’d rather not go there. I believe this issue is applicable to every industry.
If people were payed more most of those problems would evaporate. There used to be a middle class in this country that made enough money to justify dealing with their boss’s bullshit expectations. Now everyone is getting the bare minimum and management wonders why they’re getting minimum effort. If you want people to have a better work ethic it has to be worth it for them. Dangle a fuckin carrot once in a while, you know?
If money was an issue, I would simply find a higher paying job. I’m not owed anything. I’m trying to do the best I can just like everybody else. I’ve never agreed 100% with what management does. I’m just happy to have a decent job that pays decently. I wasn’t handed this automatically. I worked my way up to it. I earned it.
I’m not saying you didn’t work to get where you are, but if you ignore completely the chance and luck you had, then you’re just arguing in bad faith.
Even more so if you can’t see that people entering the workforce now have less chances and need more luck to get where you feel you worked hard to get.
I don’t rely on luck. Too risky. I do what I have to do and use what I’m given to make the best of my situation. Complaining and blaming others got me nowhere. I’m simply pointing out what I’ve witnessed over the last three decades.
You may not rely on luck, but do you recognize that you are at least the beneficiary of luck? You could be the exact same person you are born at two different times (or even the same time in two different geographies), and have drastically different opportunities available to you.
The fact that I am using my high tech device to entertain myself by replying to your comment that you made using your high tech device to entertain yourself means that we are both in the upper percentiles of luckiest humans to ever have lived.
I am sitting at my engineering job that I really like as I type this. I have a bachelors degree and two masters degrees. I have worked for this shit, and I have pushed through my chronic disease despite seeing images of the literal brain damage I have from it. I am STILL extremely fortunate to be where I am. Most humans who have ever been born literally had no path to get here regardless of their health or upbringing. And I’d guess that the same is true for a majority of today’s living humans.
And I do not mean those statements with a negative connotation. You should take some of that innate positive outlook you have for the world and develop a feeling of being grateful for your good fortune in life. It’s literally good for you.
To pretend that your situation is solely because of your positive attributes as an individual is pretty arrogant and not conducive to personal growth.
Sure…I see your point. But I’m not gonna take my paycheck and go to the casino on the off chance I could double my money.
That is not what was meant by anyone here mentioning luck. I would think any reasonable person would understand this.
Ok. So why would I live my daily life with a guilt complex? Yes I realize I wasn’t born into a slave labor camp in North Korea. But why would I dwell on that? I’m focused on my current situation. And trying to make that better
Well, you’re doing that, but you’re also passing judgement on others (those you called out with your original “work ethic” comments) and painting them with a brush of laziness, or at the extreme, unethical behavior.
This isn’t an effort to try to make you feel guilty for the luck you’ve had, its attempting to help you realize that not everyone has had the opportunities you have had in the past or continue to have. North Korea is an extreme example. It doesn’t need to be that extreme for someone to have not reached your levels of success even with the same level of effort on their part. A level of humility is important because it lets you recognize, in some capacity, you’ve had help getting where you are. That’s not something to be ashamed of either. Its something to be thankful for. More importantly, that others need help too and you may be in a position to contribute to that help in some major or minor way today or some point in the future.
I love helping others. Especially my neighbors and loved ones. I realize I am fortunate. I don’t need a Lecture. I’m directing my comments towards people I can relate to. Obviously, I can’t relate to people that live in forced labor camps. I believe the majority of people commenting here are currently living in a “free” society and have had the same opportunities I’ve had.
We, as people, make choices everyday. Those choices have consequences. Good or bad. Life is weird. It’s like a stage. We can act all.we want. But really, all we want at the end of the day is clean water, good food and a loving family. If I lived in a tent or a shack, as long as I had that, I would be happy. I’m easy to please I guess
Agreed that’s all we want… now imagine you’re one of the younger generation, expected to do as much or more work, for less than enough to afford said clean water, good food, and a family (proof, birth rates are extremely low. In my case it’s because there’s no way I could afford a child. I can barely afford the clean water and good food)
So… what’s the problem then? Why is it a problem that the younger generation refuse to be taken advantage of… Oh sorry,I meant work their assess off to be given a pittance and laid off in 2 months, sorry not sorry, it just isn’t profitable enough.
You can’t be serious.
Okay guys, I tried. I’ve hit my limit. I’m done. I’ll leave it to you others if you want to continue. This one believes, even now, that we’re all had the same opportunities he has. Yep, those with different skin colors, same opportunities. Different genitalia, same opportunities. Alternate sexual orientation, same opportunities. Born in different socio-economic conditions, you guessed it, same opportunities. Especially those born after about 1985 that entered the workforce during the worst financial crisis since 1929. All of us should have been equally successful. We just must not have tried hard enough because of “bad work ethic” that exists today. Thats the only explanation why we’re all not successful. /s
Seems to me more like you’re focused on how the younger generation doesn’t work hard enough, they aren’t where you are. Definitely proof they don’t work as hard as you to get where you are.
You could open up a new business cleaning boots.
I don’t even know where to begin.
You sound like a bit of an exhausting cunt mate…
I didn’t downvote you even though I disagree with you.
All of the examples you gave of differences have a distinct difference between working in the 90s and now. In the 90s we did all of the things you cite aren’t happening today because it paid off with something better later. It could be a raise in pay, a promotion, or even just experience that could be leveraged at a future job earning more. It was also the time of the final Gen-X’ers entering the workforce, and there were far fewer of us than prior generations that age. This meant there was at least a form of scarcity of entry level workers so anyone that wanted a job could get one that would cover their basic bills. Employers would also train entry level people because there weren’t other options for bodies to do the jobs. We put up with being treated like crap in the hierarchy because we saw that if we worked the hierarchy we would rise. We took risks professionally that would be innovative or creative that created a great product for our employer that would frequently work out. If the professional risk didn’t pay off, we’d likely still be employed or at worst could get another job of near the same level without issue.
In short, we did all of those things in the 90s for the promise of a better tomorrow, and back then, there was one. Workers today know there isn’t a better tomorrow, likely only a worse one. So why should they take the same risks we did professionally if they are not only far less likely to benefit, and are in a much more precarious position with far higher debts (student loans) and far few resources (lack of savings or real estate ownership)?
I’ve heard that argument being made before. That people don’t think there is a better tomorrow. I suppose I could blame it partially on the doom scrolling people do daily on their phones. Personally speaking, I believe there are always opportunities and a better tomorrow.
A younger worker today can do zero doom scrolling and still see their 6 figure student loan debt statements every month. They can look at their take-home pay after subtracting their high living expenses then checking the cost of real estate to see that owning a home going to be perpetually out-of-reach. They can look at the last 4-5 years of their income and see that any appreciation going forward isn’t likely to change their situation.
This is another change from the 90s to today. In the 90s it was a given that there are opportunities and a better tomorrow. We were raised with actual first hand experience of optimism in the working world. For today’s younger workers it has declined to a possibility of opportunities and a better tomorrow. Don’t discount Millennials that entered the workforce right as the Financial Crisis of 2007-2008 was starting. As young adults in the 90s as GenX, we had nothing like that. The worse we had was the dotcom bubble burst in 1999 or 2000, and even then it just meant finding another jump of which there were many. Gen Z saw Millennials trying to be successful do what we Gen X-ers did and failing (because the game had changed). Is it any wonder Gen Z isn’t even trying to play the old game when they see the game is now stacked against them?
I also see this student loan thing being tossed around all the time. If people don’t intend to pay them back, then don’t take out a loan. It’s really that simple. Stay out of debt. I can’t stand banks. I loathe them. I refuse to owe a bank or anybody else for that matter any money. The public has been sold a lie. I used to be in a bad situation like what you’re describing. I woke up one day and told myself enough is enough. I’m sick of the debt. I’m sick of blaming everybody else for my shortcomings. I paid off all my debts, bought a house, paid that off and now I try and save as much as I can. I didn’t wait for anybody to rescue me. Nobody is gonna rescue me. The government, a bank, family. Nobody. I’m responsible for my own actions and I take accountability. The only way people can change their situation for the better is to think positively and work hard towards your goals. I don’t know of any other way.
I see you’re somewhat fixated on the “attitude problem” bit, but you’re conveniently leaving out the circumstances. The labor situation right now is starting to swing back to how it was in say, the 19th and 20th centuries.
Oh yeah, they’re trying to bring back all the classics: Smashing unions, company towns paying in company scrip, child labor, inhuman working hours, dangerous factories, you name it.
That you had the opportunity to decide you were sick of things sucking and just go do something about it, is a privilege you didn’t have control over. You did have control over recognizing and seizing those opportunities. But this can be an uncomfortable distinction because it somewhat undermines the “I did it all by myself with sheer grit and chest hair” narrative.
I’m what they’d call a "millennial " and I see lots of your points in my experience. I see younger people who are absolutely mind boggling with being unable to problem-solve, for instance, and I also see oldies who, in 2025, have avoided learning anything new since they graduated highschool in the 70’s or something, and simply get mad or frustrated that things have changed instead of doing something about it. I’ve also seen complete geniuses that were like 12 years old repairing their own electronics.
My point being, there have always been pragmatic people and helpless-by-choice people.
I agree there’s lots of avenues to funding for school that don’t involve a loan, but that’s not cut and dry either. If a decent school isn’t in their neighborhood they can’t crash with mom and dad, for instance. If it’s out of state? Man, how the heck couldn’t you take out a loan?
There’s also the time factor. To work enough to get you through school without taking a loan, if you didn’t get SIGNIFICANT grant money, you wouldn’t have time for school, unless maybe you were okay with your Bachelor’s being a 6-8 year degree.
Ah. Time. People are working earlier now too. They can’t just “defer adulthood” to go to school instead. Heck, some states were bringing back child labor shortly after COVID! I wonder how many of those kids will afford school with money or time.
They’re on a treadmill they can’t step off, because their family probably needs the money they pull in, because so many jobs disappeared, and education is so abysmal people can’t shift their skills when that job disappears.
To add to that crap-sandwich, their hours are worth less, and they’re expected to do more work with less coworkers because labor is expensive and management is cheap.
Nowadays the reward for hard, exceptional work, is more work and a higher expectation, and if you’re REALLY convincing, like $.08+ an hour. I’m not even kidding. Statistically, you are an expendable “human resource”, not a valued asset.
Observe how the common knowledge now is “The best way to get a raise is to switch jobs.” Loyalty is punished.
Overtime? Ha! Most jobs put a lot of effort into making sure you work really hard right up to that line, and will actually penalize you if you try to go over it. Other jobs find ways around it, like slapping you with a laughably low (they’ll call it “competitive”) “exempt” salary.
Maybe, just maybe, in the 90’s, workers were still somewhat respected and valued. Today they’re a cost to minimize in any way possible to please shareholders with upward-jaggy lines.
People have a shitty work ethic because they see through the crap. Working a job in the modern age is what business folk would call “a raw deal.”
If we look at this through a Great American Entrepreneurial lens, going by numbers and common sense…working a job is foolish, and only marginally better than not having one at all.
If anything the younger generations are getting more clever about sourcing income from wherever they can, with endless “side hustles.” Because their bosses sure as hell won’t pay them. (Fun fact: Wage theft is the most prominent form of theft!)
Sadly there’s a cost to that hustling “work ethic” to keep everything together. Skyrocketing lonliness and suicide rates.
It’s easy to jump on “doomscrolling zoomers” but we also need to consider that the Internet is merely a communication platform, and look at WHY we have a world that causes literal children to develop a sardonic collective humor about “burning oceans (again)” and “dying in the climate wars”, and never retiring, or owning a house, and that having a family is not only out of reach, but cruel and irresponsible hubris under a world of rapidly decaying empires locked in constant bloody conflicts at the behest of private interests.
So, I’m glad things worked out for you. I’m being sincere here. I’m glad loyalty paid off, and you could do something with your life. May the rest of your days b
Wow that was a lot. Forgive me for not replying with as much. I don’t have the time.
My only question to all of this is, what is your solution to these problems? If it involves the government, then I have news for you. The government isn’t going to help anybody. My point being if these problems you say exist and are such huge problems, then what is the answer? How does society solve it? I’ve tried to answer these questions myself and it always comes back to asking myself one question. What can I DO TODAY, to make things better for myself and my family?
The solution is to stop working for shit companies or only provide what they pay for so they have trouble finding help and pay more. The very thing you are bitching about. The free market right?
No problem, I’m aware that I tend to essay-out into a ramble on these tough topics. Thanks for hearing me out!
So, “my solution”: idealistically? Worker organizing. I see a resurgence of unions which is very inspiring, and they’ve been effective at winning decent pay and benefits. The news has been quietly ignoring and underplaying strike waves across the nation (and the world), because it makes their bosses nervous. They’re also ignoring the absolutely blatant retaliation against strikers from corporations. (Remember 19th and 20th centuries all over again? Thankfully they’re not bringing in PMCs and riot cops for strikers…yet.) If anybody is “entitled without earning it”, it’s the corpos who feel entitled to cheap complicit bodies for their profit machines.
Especially not this one. God help us. Reagan’s measures to prevent certain industries from striking, like air traffic controllers, and recently seen with railway workers, is just one of many ways the pro-capital government keeps the workers from getting too “uppity.”
Returning to a New Deal economic policy would help immensely. But 50’s red-scare and trickle-down propaganda is still sunk in deep.
Short answer? Band together and survive. The “screw you, got mine” individualism/exceptionalism myth has destroyed our culture and made us a nation of suspicious strangers. Perfect for selling garbage to and farming labor from.
So we need to involve our neighbors and coworkers in mutual support. You’re right, the government won’t help, your boss won’t help. Who’s left?
Just “keeping my head down and looking out for me and mine” is how we get picked off. This is also why media thinktanks love to stoke identity politics. It gets people infighting instead of massing.
So I’m just doing what I can to do my own thing, and survive, and getting people talking, and loving my neighbor as myself as much as I can, and trying not to feel powerless against overwhelming apathy and oppression from all sides.
Interesting. I used to have some involvement in a union. In fact, I was a regional VP for a huge union at one point and time. And while I agree with the union premise of organizing, I believe it’s an antiquated solution. The union I belonged to also delved a lot into social issues which I didn’t believe had any place in what I was fighting for…which was fair wages, decent working hours and getting the tools we needed for our jobs.
Instead they focused on social issues that had nothing to do with my work environment. They ran me out of that union. I used to be excited about going to meetings and getting people involved. They quickly showed me what their ulterior motives were. I figured out what the leader of that union was making. I saw how they wined and dined me at fancy dinners and hotels at Las Vegas hotels and casinos. I could see how they were grooming me. All they cared about was membership numbers. They don’t care how I signed them up. Tell these employees anything they wanted to hear. Sign that card.
Eventually, I had enough. I resigned my position and took an early retirement (I’m working in a different field now). Not a single one of them asked me why. Not a single one of them were sorry to see me go. Not a single one of them gave shit. I wasn’t useful to them anymore. I had a big influence on the workplace. They knew that and they exploited that. I do feel bad for the people I misled into signing up for that union that I believed in (brainwashed) at the time. Meanwhile I was being flown across the nation and being wined and dined on their dime.
So yes. While I believe organizing and pushing back on employers to make working environments better, I also believe that unions have become the very thing they claim to fight against.
I’m curious to know what your opinion is on unions today. Because in their current form, I don’t believe they are beneficial to everybody. We were actively told that if they weren’t with us then they are against us. I wanted to show the non union members.what we were capable of. However, I wasn’t able to due to holding this hostile attitude towards non members. Plus, we were not able to show any real progress. Basically just “sign up and you’ll see. Be in the club.”
TBH I get what you are saying about unions. They are hard to do right. The problem is that without them we’re pretty much cooked. It’s not even management in most cases, but the owners.
At one company, I contributed to cancer research, we were saving actual people. But the owners decided that selling the whole thing to the Americans who can put it into their ponzi scheme of health insurance makes more money. That’s because the average American pays 50x as much for this particular service than an EU citizen.
The people who were contracting and were thus not covered by the union were immediately canned. The rest we could fight and get a dignified way to leave for.
And I was one of their hard working people. I got one particular process that took days down to taking minutes. And not even for the money, but for the satisfaction of getting shit done. Someone from the new owners who probably didn’t even know what we were doing was trying to outsource everything to India, so everything we did went in the trash.
And this was one of my better jobs. I’ve had way worse. And I’m not the kind of person to wallow in my shit either, so I went and got therapy and changed careers so let’s see how that works out.
But going back to the original argument, I know a ton of people who would make something nice for the sake of it, like the GoldenEye devs. They are usually on the younger side, they usually get punished for it, and they usually end up needing and usually not getting therapy. Workers in general get absolutely no input into their work by policy.
Nailed it. Public library here. I would often notice patterns with hangups where people didn’t understand the procedures, for example taking an accessibility seat when they didn’t require it, because it wasn’t clearly marked. So I’d make nice clear signs for such things that solved the problem, and I’d get punished.
I would try to take pride in my work, I wanted to share specific knowledge I knew in workshops. I was told “That’s not your role, go back where you belong.”
And then they wanted to have talks with me like “It seems like you’re not happy to be here.” Wow, no shit?
Retail job before that, a district manager visits and notices a simple sorting mechanism I designed for getting small products out from awkwardly deep shelves using ribbons to pull the stack forward.
“What is this?” She asks. I proudly begin to explain.
“Oh you misunderstand. . .” She cuts me off with utmost disrespect. ". . .I don’t care. " And demands it be done some other way.
I was too young and desperate to send an effective message by simply leaving and never coming back.
The days of meritocracy or rewarding “out of the box thinking” or hard work are statistically dead. Unions at least have a chance of putting these egomaniacal choads in their place.
I’m sorry to hear about your experience and I don’t disagree with you, sadly! Unions in their current state are rather flawed!
In the public sector where I worked, the union was pretty crap as well. It was mostly run by older people who were simply coasting along to retirement, so whenever the bosses would say “We need to suspend cost of living increases” or some other detriment to everybody else (like part-timers who weren’t allowed to be union)…
The union would simply roll over and show their bellies to get rubs and treats from the establishment without a fight. Again, the union leadership were just coasting to retirement, so they couldn’t care less if they tried. Absolutely useless. “Bargaining.” Yeah, right!
I’ve always thought seniority alone is a terrible metric with which to rank leadership, and it establishes yet another bullshit unjustified hierarchy just like the job itself does. If anybody can say “What I say goes, because I get to make the rules.”, then we’re doing it all wrong.
If there’s “wining and dining” for “campaigning”, we’re doing it all wrong.
Unions should be a democratic collective, not yet another pathetic internal power struggle.
Unions have been de-fanged by corporate lobbyists under the guise of being “recognized.” In my eyes, if they’re jumping through hoops so their bosses “allow” them, what is the point?
The purest form of a union is the workers grouping up and saying :
“We will be treated better if you want your profit machine to keep running. Otherwise, things will start getting very painful for you, financially or otherwise.”
Bosses should be afraid to piss off the people who make them money. Instead, they feel entitled to a ready and desperate wageslave pool, where they can require PHDs and pay $20 an hour and demand unpaid overtime and require “permission” to be sick.
I’ve learned organizing a strike without jumping through a ton of hoops is called a “wildcat strike” and we’ve been conned into thinking that’s “frowned upon.” I personally think it sounds badass and should happen more often.
Instead, modern unions are “permitted” to exist, so long as they don’t actually threaten profits too much, and they’re run by people who want to “be the boss” themselves. They’re even told when it can be “illegal to strike”!
So basically, the system needs a rework, but unions as an idea must be saved and protected if we want to avoid a complete Mordor scenario. Capitalists would still resort to slavery, company stores, child labor, and more, if unions past didn’t put up a very real fight.
Things like the 40 hour work week, FMLA, and sick days were literally bought with blood. And today we’ve raised generations to be complacent and docile to cruel masters.
Especially ironic in a country established in rebellion to a monarchy, who loves to eagle-screech about how “free” it is.
“Labor day” barely has meaning anymore, and we’re only conditioned to memorialize the veterans of foreign wars. Holidays to solemnly remember the sacrifice of both are now an excuse to grift oversized pickup trucks and mattresses.
The Battle of Blair Mountain isn’t even taught in history classes! (I only learned of this a few years ago!)
In the end, unions should be agile, cunning, and cooperative representation of the entire worker base, rather than clubs of broken old men saying “Screw you, got mine.”
Anarchist cooperation is surprisingly effective in small groups with common aims. The power-hungry know this, which is why they come down on any hint of autonomy without mercy.
…wikipedia.org/…/History_of_union_busting_in_the_…
Its not that simple. You’re using the benefit of hindsight with the knowledge you’ve gained as an adult and are applying it to the mindset of a 18 year old that is making the decision that they don’t understand the consequences of, and are being advised to do by adults they trust.
This is generally good advice, but not always. There is useful debt, especially when you are younger, which is the prime time that young adults take on student loans.
That is certainly your right, but it may not be the most beneficial path for someone in your situation. Living purely on cash (as in money belonging to you not borrowed) means missing out on opportunities to those with solid transportation, education (not just college), ownership of your housing, and possibly needed medical procedures. Unless you’re starting with money, the timeline for establishing yourself and meeting your basic needs is far longer without borrowing at all.
I went through the same thing. However, we both went through this long after being 18 years old, which is when many would have taking out student loans. So even we didn’t have the wherewithal to avoid poor financial choices, we were just lucky enough not to have been born at a time when a 6 figure student loan for a bachelors degree isn’t uncommon.
That is a perfect example of a good use of debt. You took out a mortgage to buy a house, and gave the bank money in interest while you worked to pay it off. Not all debt is bad. Imagine if you’d tried to buy a house just by saving up cash.
That is a good mindset, but recognize what it took in life before you arrived there. I imagine that was a long time after your 18th birthday. Further, you weren’t in as deep as a hole as many young people are today. If you were paying rent, it was a smaller fraction of your income than younger people pay today. If you had a car (even a used one), it would have cost you far less to buy then than today, and far cheaper to maintain and repair then compared to now. Most importantly, you had years of experience and probably had professional employment when you made your realization. You weren’t 2 years graduated from college without any professional employment because the 2008 Financial Crisis essentially stopped all hiring for a couple of years.
The younger generations didn’t have what you had to overcome things. So they can’t take exactly the same actions you took and expect the same positive outcome.
That worked for both of us, but we had the benefit of growing up (and entering the workforce) when we did. We got to establish ourselves before the rules changed.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dea70fed-9d5e-418f-85fe-70f3d266c7f3.png">
The other difference between us in the 90s and the generations now is that when life kicked us down, there was a small effort to stand up. The consequences of failure (even with no mistakes made) can have decades long consequences to recover from. The reason I point this out is that you and I have had it better than those young today. What worked for us, rarely works for them anymore. Its important to recognize that when we try to apply our past experience to those experiencing it now. The time difference changes the rules and outcomes.
So with all that being said, has the education system failed society? They seem to teach people how to be good consumers. And that’s about it
Also, I agree, taking a loan for a home is the only debt I agree with only because real estate is a tangible asset and will always appreciate.
I’m too far removed from the modern education system to be able to have a trustworthy complete opinion on it. If there are any educators reading, please weigh in, I’m interested in your answer.
However, one of the few things I don’t see taught comprehensively (and this was true of us in the 90s too) is: Critical Thinking
I had a few teachers or professors throughout my primary and secondary education that DID teach this in concert with their subject matter expertise. These men and women had a profound impact on my mindset and education I still benefit from today. I don’t know if certain lines of study have more or less of it, but the practice around exploring “why” something is instead of just “what” is in short supply in most folks I run into today.
For your situation that may be the appropriate answer. For others if they are able bodied and desire to work, but don’t have transportation, it is worth taking on debt to buy an affordable vehicle of some kind that can get them too and from work.
If a different person is have debilitating pain from an infected tooth and can’t work, taking on debt to get the tooth pulled instead of dying of sepsis is also good debt.
I intended to pay mine back. I took out 30k in 2005 and I pay $300 a month since 2009. I owe 40k now. Is that ok with you for the government to screw kids so hard on loans? No wonder we don’t trust anyone for their word. I wish it had happened to you so you could see.
But you are just up there in management demanding respect so you would never know.
Why work if your pay check doesn’t pay all your bills? That’s the main incentive to work and you act like it’s not important at all and we should just suck it up. Fuck you
No I don’t think it’s ok for banks and the government to fuck people over. And just like every other debt, it’s too easy to get and much too hard to pay back. They prey on naive people that are sold the lie that they’re going to be some kind of astronaut or celebrity doctor if they take out a 100k loan for an “education”. Social media portrays people working these dream jobs and flexing their cyber trucks. This ain’t reality. But it’s sold as reality. Unfortunately, people are suckered into thinking that a 100k education = cyber trucks and log cabins at lake Tahoe.
Fuck me? You’re mad at the wrong person
Millennials were told “go to college at all costs because it will work out“ by people like you. Then yall got mad when we did it.
😆 people like me? I’m arguing against it. I never believed that. Or told anybody that. I did the opposite.
You know what I’m saying don’t play dense please.
Sounds like a problem with your company culture. I don’t think your description fits the industry as a whole.
I’m not strictly speaking of the place I work for. I actually like my job. Not a fan of the management. My argument is that a lot of people’s work ethic has dwindled. Really all it does is punish their coworkers. You think the CEO or upper management cares about people’s feelings or how the job got done? I don’t. We’re all replaceable. I do the best I can with what I’m given. Complaining gets me nowhere
Again, what you’re saying doesn’t apply to the industry as a whole. Or maybe you’re just one of the folks who thinks Americans should adopt the 996 work ethic?
Given how passionate people are about this topic, I’d say it applies to much of the working class.
wtf… so tired of being told i have no work ethic, when i probably work more than you ever had to at my age, for peanuts. I will never own a home. my company doesn’t give two fucks about me. I can’t even afford glasses, i can’t go to the doctor. but i should be kissing feet and never complaining? your mentality is what killed opportunity in my generation. like, “people prefer to be micromanaged?” how can you possibly think that
Not accepting shit from bosses isn’t bad work ethics. Corporations did it their fake personhood.
I wonder if any incentives have changed in 35 years…
Nope, it’s Gen Y/Z who are the problem.
It kinda just sounds like cool and interesting people don’t want to hang out with you. I wonder why.
I have a loving family and a decent job. I have everything I need. I can count the friends I have on one hand.
This sounds like rose tinted glasses and a great example of why anecdotes/human memory aren’t reliable.
I did mention it was anecdotal. My memory hasn’t failed me. Yet
Yes. Which is why I said it’s an example of how anecdotes are unreliable.
Did you forget the /s?
No this was a completely unironic old man “kids these days!” rant.
Small teams being allowed to do what they want can still give good results, but you aren’t going to see that at major companies. I almost solely play indie games by micro or solo dev teams.
That’s a great point. I do support indie games when I enjoy them. Not a fan of the micro transaction slop that huge publishers are pushing
You could also afford to work on failed projects because houses and healthcare costed two acorns and a peanut.
Work ethic today is fine in places that aren’t spreading their people as thin as possible. There’s always going to be shitheads but for the most part when you see “poor work ethic” it’s because everyone’s burnt tf out and just doesn’t care any more.
There’s some truth to this
You’re just wrong. Devs today work far more than those devs did. Devs today work insane hours. It’s nearly physically impossible to work more hours than devs do today.
Goldeneye64 : 1997 JIRA : 2002
scrum: 1986
Scum: 3000BC
Or anyone creative
What happened to the agile movement?
Reminds me of the graphing calculator on Macs. Guy wanted it in system 7 so bad he ignored getting fired, broke into the office, and snuck it into the master build.
I cut my teeth on system 7 (well, 7.5) and this is news to me. Did it get quickly nuked?
Nope, it’s been part of Mac OS ever since, partly because math teachers loved how it let kids play with math.
Now it’s called Grapher.
I think I found the gap in my knowledge: it looks like it only shipped with PPC versions. I had a 68k Performa as a teenager. By the time I got a PPC box it was well into system 8’s lifespan and I had stopped opening every little thing, probably due to internet providing those dopamine hits lol.
Thank you, TIL!
Incredible
(beginning of) The Graphing Calculator Story
The Graphing Calculator Story Copyright © 2004 Ron Avitzur. Pacific Tech’s Graphing Calculator has a long history. I began the work in 1985 while in school. That became Milo, and later became part of FrameMaker. Over the last twenty years, many people have contributed to it. Graphing Calculator 1.0, which Apple bundled with the original PowerPC computers, originated under unique circumstances. I used to be a contractor for Apple, working on a secret project. Unfortunately, the computer we were building never saw the light of day. The project was so plagued by politics and ego that when the engineers requested technical oversight, our manager hired a psychologist instead. In August 1993, the project was canceled. A year of my work evaporated, my contract ended, and I was unemployed. I was frustrated by all the wasted effort, so I decided to uncancel my small part of the project. I had been paid to do a job, and I wanted to finish it. My electronic badge still opened Apple’s doors, so I just kept showing up. I had many sympathizers. Apple’s engineers thought what I was doing was cool. Whenever I gave demos, my colleagues said, “I wish I’d had that when I was in school.” Those working on Apple’s project to change the microprocessor in its computers to the IBM PowerPC were especially supportive. They thought my software would show off the speed of their new machine. None of them was able to hire me, however, so I worked unofficially, in classic “skunkworks” fashion. I knew nothing about the PowerPC and had no idea how to modify my software to run on it. One August night, after dinner, two guys showed up to announce that they would camp out in my office until the modification was done. The three of us spent the next six hours editing fifty thousand lines of code. The work was delicate surgery requiring arcane knowledge of the MacOS, the PowerPC, and my own software. It would have taken weeks for any one of us working alone. At 1:00 a.m., we trekked to an office that had a PowerPC prototype. We looked at each other, took a deep breath, and launched the application. The monitor burst into flames. We calmly carried it outside to avoid setting off smoke detectors, plugged in another monitor, and tried again. The software hadn’t caused the fire; the monitor had just chosen that moment to malfunction. The software ran over fifty times faster than it had run on the old microprocessor. We played with it for a while and agreed, “This doesn’t suck” (high praise in Apple lingo). We had an impressive demo, but it would take months of hard work to turn it into a product. I asked my friend Greg Robbins to help me. His contract in another division at Apple had just ended, so he told his manager that he would start reporting to me. She didn’t ask who I was and let him keep his office and badge. In turn, I told people that I was reporting to him. Since that left no managers in the loop, we had no meetings and could be extremely productive. We worked twelve hours a day, seven days a week. Greg had unlimited energy and a perfectionist’s attention to detail. He usually stayed behind closed doors programming all day, while I spent much of my time talking with other engineers. Since I had asked him to help as a personal favor, I had to keep pace with him. Thanks to an uncurtained east-facing window in my bedroom, I woke with the dawn and usually arrived ten minutes before Greg did. He would think I had been working for hours and feel obliged to work late to stay on par. I in turn felt obliged to stay as late as he did. This feedback loop created an ever-increasing spiral of productivity. People around the Apple campus saw us all the time and assumed we belonged. Few asked who we were or what we were doing.When someone did ask me, I never lied, but relied on the power of corporate apathy. The conversations usually went like this: Q: Do you work here? A: No. Q: You mean you’re a contractor? A: Actually, no. Q: But then who’s paying you? A: No one. Q: How do you live? A: I live simply. Q: (Incredulously) What are you doing here?! See link for remainder
What a fantastic read.
I’m moved by this. I feel that this is what HN used to be maybe 10 years ago. Now its just VC crap and making money as quickly as possible with lock-in market-corning crapware.
Yeah, that fucking rocked.
I worked in video games in the 2000, same feeling, good memories and shenanigans (in Ghost Force, we hid a level with pigs and exploding penguins for example), and I call most of the coworkers my friends still.
Now it’s just crap it seems.
Maybe it was the raw new stuff getting thrown at you all the time. Today it’s just “a PC”, slightly faster. Same engine.
Or I’m getting old :-D
Whoa that was so good.
Do you know where I could find more stuff like that? I read “In the beginning was the command line” not too long ago and loved that.
Great read, thanks!
www.pacifict.com/story/
For anyone wanting a read.
“Broke in” is a bit of an exaggeration. Their cards simply weren’t turned off and they managed to fake it until the project was finished.
If you read the whole thing you’ll learn that for some time their cards were in fact deactivated and they had to sneak in behind other people.
It’s been decades since the last time I read it in full.
Their cards were turned off eventually, leading them to sneak in for awhile. Great story, although somewhat insane
Dude that graphing calculator was awesome—way ahead of anything at the time.
I never could get a hang of using the N64 controller for FPS. Doubly so when you’re facing Oddball as an opponent.
Nobody is allowed to pick Oddjob! House rules in every house I’ve played in.
My house rules don’t have an explicit rule - go ahead and pick Oddjob - but know we will loudly judge you and team up to ensure that mistake doesn’t happen again.
We allowed Oddjob to be chosen, but then the other 3 players would be allowed to team up and murder you on sight.
Plus, you were legally allowed to look at their quarter of the screen to see where they were at and kill them until they picked someone else.
Nature always adapts.
I don’t think I’d like it now, but back before two-thumbstick FPS games existed, I didn’t even question it.
There was a controller layout for Goldeneye and Perfect Dark where you used two N64 controllers, so you had two analog sticks and two Z buttons. It was extremely awkward to use A or B to cycle through weapons or open doors because of the button placement, but Goldeneye was actually the first two-thumbstick FPS game I played.
I wish I had known back in 1997!
Had to lookup a video, this is how it worked: youtu.be/dZaEpugk3hY?t=235
Fun fact, you could use the second controller to aim and shoot (without a reticle) during cutscenes! Really funny and awkward when you can kill major characters (including Bond) during a cutscene and of course the game proceeds like it never happened. :p
(Maybe only during the end-mission cutscenes. I can’t remember 100%)
Yeah GoldenEye is one of those games that was absolutely incredible at the time it came out - but is painful to go back to now. Which is too bad, because the game was amazing and had a ton of replayability at the time.
It’s actually possible to play it with modern controls with the right control scheme and remapping. Feels great!
Yeah, I had the weirdest experience going back and trying it recently. Was hard to play. But back then, boy those controls felt so amazing and smooth!
Someone else said the same thing a couple weeks ago but I had the opposite experience. When it came out I’d already been playing stuff like Doom on PC so I already knew the controls on for GE were awkward, but I made the adaptation back then. Now it’s still in muscle memory.
Hell yeah that’s awesome! I played a lot of GE back in the day, so the muscle memory has got to still be there for me too. Wonder how many hours it’d take to unlock it.
I would say 007 Nightfire, my experience being on the GameCube, perfected the Goldeneye control scheme formula. That game was a joy to play.
.
License to Kill
Knowing how to crouch
Both were not optional
To be fair, that was probably the worst controller ever made. Even the Duke was more friendly, just gave cramps.
I loved that controller I think it’s such a shame it’s so universally panned. Don’t get me wrong, I wish it had dual sticks and I also wish the stupid main joystick wasn’t built such that it breaks terribly from normal use, I also would have appreciated if they hadn’t put those stupid ridged rings on the stick that shred up your skin, but I still think it was really innovative and fun to use and for the most part, pretty comfortable including it’s alternate mode of operation with the D-pad.
It was quirky, sure, but not the worst controller ever by a huge margin. Probably not even the worst first-party controller.
Somewhere among the top 1…
The ultimate pain: License to kill. Slappers only. Oddjob.
It’s funny seeing interviews with the devs and they basically go “We had no idea what we were doing with the N64. How did this succeed?”
Then you find out about stuff like the fully functional ZX Spectrum Emulator in the game and begin wondering too.
That puts the fact that Jet Pac was in DK64 into a different perspective.
Don’t forget the (at the time) most arcade-accurate version of the original Donkey Kong, too. Which they technically shouldn’t have done, because DK was in legal dispute.
As an avid aq2 player this multiplayer mode was a literal joke when this game came out. I was like why is everything so damn slow???
Innovative? Lmfao.
AQ2 came out the year after Goldeneye
Seriously. That other multiplayer first person shooter on the console was MUCH better. I can’t remember the name though… Any idea what it was?
I don’t know what it is but if it’s a multiplayer PFS then I bet it came out after Goldeneye
This guy gets it :-)
Perfect Dark. Also came out after. Goldeneye was revolutionary, everybody played it. Any house I went to, we played Goldeneye.
Perfect Dark wa great, but Goldeneye seemingly scratched the itch for FPS amongst casual gamers at the time, and so it was never as popular.
Halo CE
That came out four years later.
Yeah, just mentioned it because it’s really when console shooters went mainstream.
So many great memories playing GoldenEye on the rec room big screen TV in my dorm in college in '97 and '98.
So devs used to have extra time just to add multiplayer. My how times change.
Now every game has to be a multiplayer live service and the campaign/storymode is an afterthought for AAA
Not to mention time crunch for every AAA project
I bought STALKER 2, a masterpiece of post apocalyptic fiction and storytelling.
I was running the game on launch, an old friend calls me up on Discord, and says:
“So how is it?”
I say: “I don’t know yet, I just got to the first town past the tutorial.”
He says: “No, I mean the multiplayer.”
I lost the ability to think for a good 30-60 seconds trying to formulate the right string of words to respond with, from the psychic damage he’d inflicted with the presumption that it was a live service multiplayer game.
I think capitalism has weaponized brain rot into profits. As long as people open their wallets and not their brains, things will continue as planned. We’re literally paying for it.
What is a live service multiplayer shooter game and how is it different from like old school duke nukem 3D multiplayer?
I’ve been seeing the term “live service” and I can’t get a clear answer from Google. My computer gaming days are mostly behind me and I don’t always keep up.
Live service means the content comes from the company’s servers, and likely changes rapidly. The quintessential example is Fortnite. Updates are expected, not merely necessary fixes. Duke Nukem 3D had all the content installed on your computer from day one, without expectation that it would change (unless you made your own maps, or downloaded maps other USERS made).
Live service also means with every update are new forms of monetization (cough cough skin microtransactions), because according to the c suite, live service means continuous profit, or whatever the fuck that means
That shit sounds addictive as fuck for the right kind of brain. Thanks for the explanation! .
The right kind of brain being most human being.
Companies have made everything in their power to find what is addictive and how to implement it in a game to squeeze more money from players.
Different hooks for different folks.
I escaped into Fallout 3 for a while in my late twenties, for instance. Multiplayer shooters are not very enjoyable to me. I don’t care to build the muscle memory to get good at it.
In general, gaming is no longer important to me. I do still play some Tetris, and my girl likes watching me play Zelda so it’s a good way for us to have some couch time before bed.
My life is pretty good, I have an easy wonderful marriage, I don’t need that sort of escape anymore. Have had trouble with alcohol since 2020.
My wife has had problems in the past with mobile puzzle games like Candy Crush. From what I understand, those sorts of games are particularly effective at catching women 20 and up.
Multiplayer shooters are particularly effective at catching boys and young men. I don’t have a source but I’m pretty sure most of the people playing shooters are pretty stereotypically male.
Anyhow, yeah, the right kind of ‘brain’ is shorthand for cis-het males ages 12-25, at a guess. And yada yada, other gendered folks will get caught as well but probably aren’t the primary target for fortnite or whatever shooter.
Live service games and mobile games use the same psychological tricks to keep people coming back and entice people to buy microtransactions.
After that, the theme of the game appeal to different folks.
I’ve learned to recognize my triggers, but it took a lot of conscious efforts to achieve that. I still buy some microtransactions from time to time for free games I play a lot, but this is a conscious decision I make and not a trigger making me buy things.
And even then, I feel the temptations every time a cool skin is put straight in my face. The psychology behind all that has been distilled to a science and used against us.
Live service means there are constant “content” updates being released by the developer/publisher.
This can be character skins, weapon skins or other cosmetics, new maps or modes, new classes, skills or really anything. A lot of times these are wrapped up in to “battle passes” time limited, purchaseable collections of stuff designed to keep players engaging with the game daily for carrots being dangled in front of them. Most of these are also time limited so if you don’t jump through all of the Hoops before the timer expires you no longer have access to the content that you were playing for and paying for.
To relate to old school gaming think of them like mini-expansion packs. The part that most people take issue with is the strategy behind the majority of them.
Almost all live service games are designed to keep players running on the hedonistic treadmill looking for the dopamine hit of that next unlock. In the more egregious free-to-play games you see that crafted through dark patterns in a way that incentivizes users to buy shortcut items through the marketplace to either automatically collect the ranks needed for the unlock or provide double accrual rate for whatever the experience marker is.
The reason they are coined lives service is due the nature of them receiving this constant update drip in a manner that would be live as opposed to static in traditional, Old School multiplayer games where you may see a large expansion every once in awhile but certainly not a weekly or monthly drip feed of new shit for the players to grind away at trying to unlock.
So, how far are you into it?
2"
Oh, I finished it already and got the true ending.
Just like Stalker 1, it pays to not blindly run at quest markers and make up your own mind.
The game is a treat, but struggles to run on many systems, so my recommendation is the following:
FSR 3.1: Quality (66% resolution scale)
Frame Generation: On
AMD Fluid Motion Frames 2: On
1440p Epic on a 7900XTX averages 60 FPS in busy towns like Rostok.
60 FPS Native -> 120 FPS FSR 3.1 -> 240 FPS AFMF
I’ve got a 240 Hz OLED (for the dark scenes), and the total video draw latency with all of that is 3.11 ms.
<img alt="" src="https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/7f733fae-9e56-4cc3-9943-11375c39cd34.jpeg">
Every shitty AAA release under crunch was not only stealing from you, but from gaming as a whole.
My play was to always throw a ton of mines everywhere and just listen to the boom.
I would do this in Far Cry before raiding a base. Plant a few mines around the approaches to the base in case the alarm got tripped. Always fun to hear the “We’re coming in from the north!” BOOM
Pulling Mountain Dew and dorito fueled all nighters with my friends playing this game are such core memories.
i wonder if they got into trouble for doing things without being ordered to
Until the sales numbers came in
Slappers only!