4D Salmon
from fossilesque@mander.xyz to science_memes@mander.xyz on 03 Jul 17:04
https://mander.xyz/post/33319811

#science_memes

threaded - newest

Xanthrax@lemmy.world on 03 Jul 17:32 next collapse

Like a certain alien species from The Xeelee Sequence?

Edit: woops wrong series. Does anyone know another series with an advanced alien civilization that sends themselves back in time to give birth to themselves? It’s right before the heat death of the universe due to another alien species that lives in stars.

borth@sh.itjust.works on 03 Jul 17:38 next collapse

Spoilers to what? I’m intrigued now lol

potoo22@programming.dev on 03 Jul 18:26 next collapse

Just Google Q /s

Answer

It’s Star Trek

Xanthrax@lemmy.world on 03 Jul 19:04 collapse

Edit: I’m mixing it up. Gosh darn it.

Xanthrax@lemmy.world on 03 Jul 19:02 collapse

The Xeelee Sequence, don’t get it confused with All Tomorrows.

Edit: woops, wrong book. What book was it?

potoo22@programming.dev on 03 Jul 18:30 collapse

Use the spoiler tags. Now I know Q is a 4-dimentional Salmon. The surprise is ruined.

Xanthrax@lemmy.world on 03 Jul 19:03 collapse

It’s being weird for me. Let me just edit:

tiramichu@sh.itjust.works on 03 Jul 18:23 next collapse

That’s pretty damn cool, to be fair.

sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 03 Jul 19:16 next collapse

Insano game idea:

2D platformer… but its actually 3D.

But the third dimension… is time.

…somebody has to have done something like that already, right?

SkaveRat@discuss.tchncs.de on 03 Jul 19:19 next collapse

Braid and Prince of Persia, kind of?

BuboScandiacus@mander.xyz on 03 Jul 19:29 next collapse

I don’t see how that would be any different from a regular time travel platformer

sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 03 Jul 20:09 next collapse

The idea would be that you could move in the depth axis just as an fps player (or maybe arcady spaceship or aircraft game?) moves through all 3 dimensions.

Though honestly I don’t play many 2d platformers, what I’ve seen is more of a … reset or rewind kind of paradigm, or jump forward in time, fastforward, or pause.

I’m thinking of some kind of… like you’d have to solve certain environment puzzles, defeat certain enemies, by deftly and precisely navigating through time as much as deftly executing platform jumps and 2d combat.

EDIT:

Like maybe imagine this with either a DPad + Stick or Twin Stick setup.

The one of those is your normal 2d movement, the other has one axis that is time forward/backward.

Or, maybe, left right is side to side, your character is some kind of unable to jump or crouch, but instead time phases with up/down?

(jump and crouch are replaced by… gravity temporarily off, gravity temporarily x 4?)

Pair it with maybe some kind of time travel stamina/mana meter, you gain more ‘endursnce’ with experience or after getting a treasure or accomplishing some task.

Could I guess also work with a top down or 2.5 uh, perspective as well, I guess?

can@sh.itjust.works on 03 Jul 22:13 next collapse

Something like Titanfall 2 but in 2D?

sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 03 Jul 23:35 collapse

Eh, thats basically just hitting a time pause button.

Natanael@infosec.pub on 03 Jul 23:14 next collapse

A Link through time to the past (Zelda), and some more like it.

It’s 3D, but there’s a Portal 2 mod with time travel

sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 03 Jul 23:49 collapse

A Link Through Time?

Do you mean A Link To The Past?

???

The Zelda games I’ve played that feature time travel basically just have a ‘past world’ and ‘future world’.

Using my original analogy… So your 2D game is your screen.

The 3rd dimension would be into the screen, or toward your face.

A past/future flip is just two layers.

I’m trying to think of something thats more like… 10s, 100s, 1000s of ‘layers’, very fundamentally implemented as a basic game mechanic.

Like, you’d need to be weaving through time just as much as a normal game has you weaving through space, you’d have some puzzles or fights where you’d need to be moving through time and space simultaneously…

Apparently Braid is like this?

Majora’s Mask is arguably the closest to this of any Zelda game, in that you csn functionally jump to many, many more than just two layers, tons and tons if events and npc like… world paths put them in different places at different exact times, you can Double Time song half a day into the future, unless you’re doing some crazy speedrun you’re probably gonna need to rewind the clock many times in a normal playthrough.

I’ll have to check out Portal 2 w/ time travel though, haven’t played that.

Natanael@infosec.pub on 04 Jul 01:45 collapse

In practical terms, Braid is probably closest. You have time rewind mechanics, in some stages it’s selective where rewind applies to specific objects AND/OR specific areas (so it’s not just try/retry, but actual time manipulation and setup)

Shoutout to Superhot, where time moves when you move (bullettime on steroids)

ProstheticBrain@sh.itjust.works on 04 Jul 07:48 collapse

Your description kind of made me think of Miegakure. Though it’s not about time, it is a 3D platformer where you have to move your 3D reality through a 4th spatial dimension to uncover the puzzle.

Really looking forward to playing it when it comes out.

sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 04 Jul 11:03 collapse

Well hey that sounds quite interesting! Thanks for putting it on my radar =D

Deathray5@lemmynsfw.com on 03 Jul 20:43 collapse

Ah yeah the famous genre of the time travel platformer

Chronographs@lemmy.zip on 03 Jul 21:04 collapse

Makes me think of braid

Blackmist@feddit.uk on 03 Jul 20:15 next collapse

Braid definitely has a large section like that, and a great final stage.

sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 03 Jul 20:18 collapse

Ah well shit, I was legitimately asking, I haven’t played too many platformers in a while, sounds like I should check it out!

Bronzebeard@lemmy.zip on 04 Jul 13:32 collapse

Braid is like 15 years old now, not exactly a recent release.

sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 04 Jul 14:13 collapse

Yeah I’m in my 30s, mostly stopped playing 2d platformers around age … 15? 16?

IAmNorRealTakeYourMeds@lemmy.world on 03 Jul 22:31 next collapse

there are puzzle games that do that sort of.

cynar@lemmy.world on 03 Jul 23:33 next collapse

I’ve been playing 5D Chess with Multiverse Time Travel it’s remarkably easy to understand, all considered. It’s only partially mind bending.

sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 04 Jul 00:11 collapse

Ok that, that sounds incredible rofl!

xia@lemmy.sdf.org on 03 Jul 23:46 next collapse

The first half of the game plays kinda like a tower defense game, except there is one peculiar enemy that just appears, disappears, and multiplies strategically (eventually forcing a loss), then it switches to you being that character with time-control… complete with seeing previous threads (your own character) sorta like adding another unit each time you rewind time.

sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 04 Jul 00:14 collapse

Holy shit, the idea of enemies that also have deft control over time itself did not even occur to me.

Oh god, that could be baffling to try to concept and balance, oh man, but if you could, dang, and you sound like you’ve got a simple enough in basic concept, bounded enough… but so many possible things within those bounds…

Run with your idea! I like this!

Natanael@infosec.pub on 04 Jul 02:05 collapse

I have some similar ideas about a story driven time travel game where it’s set up so that at one point you face an anonymous enemy, which forces you to trigger certain conditions in the stage and then they escape.

Later in the game you return to this stage at the same point in time, expecting to face that enemy again, but you are this “enemy”, and the game nudges you into replicating the exact same sequence of events so that you take the actions which the “enemy” did so your (NPC) past self can replay the exact steps you previously took.

But the game doesn’t show this clearly to you the player until you completed the stage - while your character is shown to have noticed something strange, the game doesn’t show you the player (or you character’s party) that you faced yourself until the end of the stage, using different positions and camera angles to hide it from you and the party. And if you manage to replicate the event chain perfectly, you’ll get to see your party members being visibly stunned when you see them realize it was a time loop (your actions in the stage breaks the loop), and hopefully the player can be made to feel like they experienced a time loop, as if they really faced off with themselves twice (“how did the game know I would do it that way?”)

sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 04 Jul 04:52 collapse

That sounds difficult to pull off, but incredible if you could.

Not only is a time loop built into the main story, recreating something from another perspective… it also has branching paths in the more linear sense of a roleplaying game / imsim.

I like this idea too, but …‘nudging’ the player, without it being too estoeric, or too obvious… that ain’t easy lol.

Natanael@infosec.pub on 04 Jul 08:46 collapse

I can see a few ways to nudge people, like a puzzle that’s more linear than it looks like, or selecting the tasks in the next version of the encounter based on the events in the previous version of it to match (you wouldn’t see clearly what the “enemy” is doing so you wouldn’t notice that those actions the second round weren’t fixed, the game is just trying to replicate the interactions between past/future self and the rest of the stage is completely arbitrary). Basically treating it as a choreography problem.

Maybe even make it feel more “wild” by recording how the player controls the character during the game before that point, use something like generative ML to make the “enemy” AI act as the game think you would respond to your past self, then when you’re the future you returning to the stage the game nudges you into using your abilities in the same way (altering how you have to use your powers to solve puzzles to match how the previous “predicted AI you”, making you face other enemies and use your abilities in similar ways to win fights)

sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 04 Jul 11:11 collapse

I was going to suggest basically what you said in the first paragraph, but I didn’t want to influence your own creativity =D

As for the second paragraph… depending on exactly what you mean by machine learning… say, possibly a more brute force, genetic-mutation, run 100s or 1000s of iterations to generate a ‘strategy’ … that may be overkill.

I would suggest looking into Goal Oriented Action Planning, GOAP. GOAP is basically a theory, a conceptual framework of how to program AI, in the video game sense of AI… but it is way, way more computational lightweight.

It is also what made FEAR’s AI so distinct, (the FEAR AI programmer invented it and named, has either an academically published or at least technical ‘white paper’ on it), convincing players that it was actually intelligently reacting to them, the environment, and making its own decisions… because arguably, it was, or at least doing a much more ‘realistic’ approximation of this at a fundamental level.

The difference between this game, your game’s implementation of GOAP and most other ones… would be that it is like, the levels themselves, the sort of plot line itself, the ‘dungeon master’… that is the Goal Oriented thinking agent, not just an npc entity in the world.

You can find some good explanations of how it works, how to implement it in a game engine, on youtube… though ironically I must warn you that a lot of tutorials from basicslly indie devs… they often do not fully even grasp the concept.

Which is funny to me, as they are not intelligent enough to understand a model of machine intelligence, yet feel confident enough to explain it or criticize it, lol.

But yeah, if you have both a comprehensive tracking and logging system for the player’s actions… well, oversimplified, GOAP roughly invovles a sort of pathfinding algo traversing a node graph, with weights between nodes… and connections between nodes, or the ‘cost’ of traversing them… changing based on the agent’s current situation.

So… you would roughly be trying to do a ‘best fit approximation’ of the player’s own decision making process… into the the node graph the game itself uses… and then you could maybe reproduce the player themselve’s approach to decision making, and then make that into an npc agent, if you wanted them to truly like, mirror fight someone that ‘thinks’ like them, at some point.

[deleted] on 03 Jul 23:49 next collapse

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interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml on 04 Jul 07:42 collapse

I think that’s bastion

ThatDullGuy@piefed.social on 03 Jul 19:39 next collapse

Is this the guy that wrote Tenet?

[deleted] on 03 Jul 20:21 next collapse

.

SPRUNT@lemmy.world on 03 Jul 20:23 next collapse

[If you’re in to science fiction fishing… ](www.listen.com to Heretical Fishing: A Cozy Guide to Annoying the Cults, Outsmarting the Fish, and Alienating Oneself by Haylock Jobson on Audible. www.audible.com/pd/B0CVCYB19Y?source_code=ASSORAP…)

Lemminary@lemmy.world on 03 Jul 20:45 next collapse

Somebody got high

Source: Been high

turtlesareneat@discuss.online on 03 Jul 20:54 next collapse

I am high now.

Source: dispensary

chuckleslord@lemmy.world on 03 Jul 21:04 collapse

Am dispensary now.

Source: farms

kautau@lemmy.world on 03 Jul 22:07 collapse

Am farm now.

Source: seeds

Viking_Hippie@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 03 Jul 22:10 collapse

Am going to seed now.

Source: aging

voodooattack@lemmy.world on 03 Jul 23:35 collapse

Am going to age now

Source: entropy

entropicdrift@lemmy.sdf.org on 04 Jul 04:10 collapse

Am myself now

Source: my mom

LanguageIsCool@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 05:54 collapse

Am

Source: think

froh42@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 06:43 collapse

null

Source: Illegal access dereferencing pointer 0x00000000000000000000000000000000000

kwarg@mander.xyz on 04 Jul 08:01 collapse

Source

Source: Source

trashgirlfriend@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 05:34 next collapse

Brother thinks I need substances to be whimsical

Lemminary@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 06:29 collapse

Not doubting ya! It’s the way they totally forgot about it and thought it was something ridiculous but later remembered everything that brings it home for me.

(Blink twice if it was the weed, but can’t say it, gurl.)

trashgirlfriend@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 08:23 collapse

I will blink as many times as it is required for you to understand my sense of wonder is much stronger than weed.

Lemminary@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 09:07 collapse

Oh. I was joking about the weed but I guess you need a chill pill instead.

trashgirlfriend@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 14:13 collapse

You may have misunderstood my propensity to dream, frolic, and play as hostility.

Lemminary@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 19:43 collapse

Hmm, there’s hardly a misunderstanding when I’m getting downvoted by you and told “as many times as I need to understand” but ok

trashgirlfriend@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 19:47 collapse

Eh, I do think it is annoying when people make those kinds of comments, it’s usually weed guys too.

I am not hostile to you, just the toxic sentiment you carry.

Lemminary@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 19:56 collapse

just the toxic sentiment you carry.

LOL!

trashgirlfriend@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 20:06 collapse

lol. lmao.

Lemminary@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 20:13 collapse

“It’s not you I hate but all about you” she says. “You’re toxic!” she cries as she takes a joke personally and goes out of her way to make new foes.

trashgirlfriend@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 20:25 collapse

Bro is straight up divining in here.

What do the tea leaves say.

Lemminary@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 20:45 collapse

Just pointing out the irony that some may call hypocrisy. Not surprised you claim the shoe doesn’t fit though.

ouRKaoS@lemmy.today on 04 Jul 10:52 collapse

They didn’t just get high, they got Perfectly High.

High enough that everything is clear and profound, but not high enough to feel the tiny shadow people climbing your nose hairs.

niktemadur@lemmy.world on 03 Jul 20:50 next collapse

The One Salmon Universe Hypothesis!

AnAverageSnoot@lemmy.ca on 03 Jul 21:42 next collapse

Hey that’s in Shadow Slave

LordTechnobabble@sopuli.xyz on 03 Jul 21:45 next collapse

Just want to say. The Narcissist Cookbook has some banger music. Don’t know how to really describe it, it’s like a fusion of Folk, Spoken Word and Punk

Here’s a Spotify link if y’all are interested

His latest two albums are a connected concept album and they’re some of their best work yet

Anyway fan rant over

blazeknave@lemmy.world on 03 Jul 21:51 next collapse

Benjamin buttonesque

ThatGuy46475@lemmy.world on 03 Jul 22:30 next collapse

Sounds like something from hitchhikers guide

dzsimbo@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 04 Jul 02:02 next collapse

With the salmon part, a bit, otherwise Hyperion. The Shrike is one of my favorite villains.

prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 04 Jul 14:49 collapse

Is the shrike a villain though? Just let it have it’s murder sex…

Yaenntz@fedia.io on 04 Jul 09:21 next collapse

My first thought was, that could be an Doctor Who ep. But yeah, Hitchhiker's suits better!

[deleted] on 04 Jul 10:21 collapse

.

agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works on 03 Jul 23:21 next collapse

Sounds like a twist on an Aboleth

Auth@lemmy.world on 03 Jul 23:44 next collapse

Ok im sold, how do build my life around this mystical thing?

HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 01:03 next collapse

Sorry, we only worship crabs here. This here’s a crab town.

Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 06:49 next collapse

It just needs a story. What stories have salmon?

Grizzly eats a salmon. Maybe that’s the basis of our creation myth. Is the grizzly bear an antagonist?

No, it’s an impersonal force. Our mythos rejects dualism; we have a time travel fish. The bear represents something else, like circumstance or cupidity.

fossilesque@mander.xyz on 04 Jul 10:29 next collapse

Are you built like a cult leader? How would you like a job.

nyctre@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 14:14 collapse

I thought the beard was the only important part. What does built like a cult leader mean?

sunflowercowboy@feddit.org on 04 Jul 10:40 next collapse

Jesus was symbolized as a fish. If he does ‘return’ it’s easy to imagine the way he does.

Take any body, name it correctly, and then you can have it travel back in time just like skyrim represents. Literature. Time almost warps to humans when we apply meaning. It is why the bible enthralls people. The body cannot return, but the mind can.

Great things to be unburied, but it is quagmire. Hence, the constant vitriol spilled forth.

prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 04 Jul 14:49 next collapse

Take any body, name it correctly, and then you can have it travel back in time just like skyrim represents. Literature. Time almost warps to humans when we apply meaning. It is why the bible enthralls people. The body cannot return, but the mind can.

This comment is a trip lol

sunflowercowboy@feddit.org on 04 Jul 15:46 collapse

Not much of it is untrue though.

Gilgamesh, the oldest story explores the fight of man versus death. Disullusionment of immortality and acceptance of passing. So we deeply understand the psyche of Gilgamesh’s journey, venture, and emotion. Hence we know him beyond his time. We traversed back through preservation.

A more personal example is how the mind constantly pulls itself back into the depths of their misery. Entrapped in a moment, a time, a memory that no longer exists. The same way we can see the possibilities of futures.

As for the body - think cyberpunk. Soulkiller, extracts the mind and kills the body. If the mind can be extracted, then it can be injected. Also known as avatar culture as seen in hindu and some east asian cultures. Raise them with the philosophy, logic, and culture. How do you extract the mind? Write it down.

TheFinn@discuss.tchncs.de on 04 Jul 14:57 collapse

That’s deep, man.

Don’t Bogart the joint. It’s puff puff pass, man.

multifariace@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 14:40 collapse

There will come a time when the distribution of 4D salmon will take the universe to equilibrium of mass. That is what will cause the universe to collapse into a big bang. The roe will cause uneven distribution pushing gravity to create stellar structures until equilibrium is once again reached. This is not a series of season but a continuum of spawning. We can only have faith in the now. Our purpose is null. In our insignificance we can choose our values. We can also not choose because whatever we are or were is not always true. The self is fleeting. Only the 4D salmon are true in theirselves.

Seasm0ke@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 00:17 next collapse

Oh okay

underscores@lemmy.zip on 04 Jul 01:25 next collapse

I guess those words are forming a sentence or more

Allemaniac@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 07:02 next collapse

reading through your old notes can be a wild ride sometimes lmao

prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 04 Jul 14:46 collapse

I just read through a little notebook that I keep by my computer to write down thoughts, lists, things to remember, etc. every now and then and came across this nugget:

Hermano = brother

therefore

“Herman” = “bro”?

also,

heavy metal band name: Dark Pontifex

interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml on 04 Jul 07:42 next collapse

All salmonds are four-dimensionnal

hydrospanner@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 19:54 collapse

Why did I mentally read that as “almonds” with an s at the front?

interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml on 05 Jul 05:02 collapse

Because of of the extra d I put after salmon

Mr_Dr_Oink@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 07:55 next collapse

And the salmon is called sammy.

Puh ka puh ka

kamen@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 09:32 next collapse

The only appropriate reaction for this I have right now is “Bruh”.

Hupf@feddit.org on 04 Jul 10:47 next collapse

<img alt="" src="https://feddit.org/pictrs/image/f181aca7-e06f-4047-ac23-7714706434c2.jpeg">

The 4D salmon: what’s an outside?

TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world on 04 Jul 14:28 next collapse

Xeelee Sequence is basically that

LovableSidekick@lemmy.world on 05 Jul 05:32 collapse

Is OP the ghost of Douglas Adams?