You'll never see it coming
from cm0002@lemmy.world to science_memes@mander.xyz on 08 Jan 03:20
https://lemmy.world/post/24011629

#science_memes

threaded - newest

Godort@lemm.ee on 08 Jan 03:48 next collapse

I’m not worried about this specific apocalypse, if only because there is literally nothing that can be done to prevent it nor stop it if it starts.

I’m far more worried about more localized, preventable, human-caused apocalypse like climate or nuclear war.

Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee on 08 Jan 06:21 next collapse

I would be very glad if it was something only destructive to humans, and not the planet(s ecosystems).

Dyskolos@lemmy.zip on 09 Jan 13:10 next collapse

The dowvotes signal a trend against misanthropy, which is the only logical conclusion.

Let me test this theory: We are a virus. An STD that is always lethal and should be eradicated for the planet’s good.

But also let me quote Dostoyevsky to end my point positively:

“I have seen the truth; I have seen and I know that people can be beautiful and happy. … I will not and cannot believe that evil is the normal condition of mankind.”

Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee on 09 Jan 22:10 collapse

The dowvotes signal a trend against misanthropy, which is the only logical conclusion.

Thx, those are surpassingly comforting words, will use them as headcanon in such irl situations.

CeruleanRuin@lemmings.world on 12 Jan 13:54 collapse

Not all humans are bad and destructive, nor is the collective human race universally destructive. We have saved species from extinction and made great strides to protect ecosystems. Don’t damn the lot of us for the crimes of the worst of us.

Tower@lemm.ee on 08 Jan 06:28 next collapse

Exactly. Same energy as worrying about Earth being hit by a gamma ray burst - 🤷‍♂️

Hossenfeffer@feddit.uk on 08 Jan 09:08 collapse

Also, we won’t see it coming and won’t feel it happen. As far as deaths go, it’s about as easy as it gets.

iAvicenna@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 15:08 collapse

on the bonus side takes Trump, Elon, Nigel and Tate with it.

Hossenfeffer@feddit.uk on 09 Jan 15:46 collapse

I mean, sure, but everything will cease to exist in a fraction of a second. Singling anyone or anything out seems kind of irrelevant.

iAvicenna@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 18:54 collapse

Yea but still…

Nougat@fedia.io on 08 Jan 03:54 next collapse

I believe that it is possible that false vacuum decay has already begun, but so far away that it might not ever reach us.

metaStatic@kbin.earth on 08 Jan 04:09 next collapse

Gamma Ray Burst

Sleep tight

jabathekek@sopuli.xyz on 08 Jan 05:39 next collapse

I’d much prefer death by a solar system wide tsunami of highly energetic particles then the slow, agonizing death march we’re currently doing.

metaStatic@kbin.earth on 08 Jan 05:53 collapse

I was gonna say it might be worse if you're on the opposite side of the planet that gets hit but I'll give you that one.

Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee on 08 Jan 06:20 collapse

Never trust a gamma ray burst

Bishma@discuss.tchncs.de on 08 Jan 04:10 next collapse

Subatomically dispersed at the speed of light is probably the best way to go. And no one would be left to mourn you.

Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee on 08 Jan 06:19 next collapse

Beam be everywhere, Scotty!

FMT99@lemmy.world on 08 Jan 11:49 collapse

♫♪♫ And we will all go together when we go ♫♪♫

ladicius@lemmy.world on 08 Jan 04:28 next collapse

Climate change.

jabathekek@sopuli.xyz on 08 Jan 05:40 next collapse

Every day, when I see or hear someone driving a gas vehicle. So like, all the time.

Feathercrown@lemmy.world on 08 Jan 16:25 collapse

Uh yeah, I sure hope it doesn’t

Xanthrax@lemmy.world on 08 Jan 04:38 next collapse

Wikipedia:

"threat

If our universe is in a false vacuum state rather than a true vacuum state, then the decay from the less stable false vacuum to the more stable true vacuum (called false vacuum decay) could have dramatic consequences.[5][6] The effects could range from complete cessation of existing fundamental forces, elementary particles and structures comprising them, to subtle change in some cosmological parameters, mostly depending on the potential difference between true and false vacuum. Some false vacuum decay scenarios are compatible with the survival of structures like galaxies, stars,[7][8] and even biological life,[9] while others involve the full destruction of baryonic matter[10] or even immediate gravitational collapse of the universe.[11] In this more extreme case, the likelihood of a “bubble” forming is very low (i.e. false vacuum decay may be impossible).[12] "

Also, of course there’s a Kurzesagt

dharmacurious@slrpnk.net on 08 Jan 08:04 next collapse

Does this mean the laws of physics could just… Change?

Hoping for the scenario that means FTL travel is possible and nothing else changes lol

Masta_Chief@lemmy.world on 08 Jan 12:37 next collapse

Irl physics patch is crazy

merthyr1831@lemmy.ml on 08 Jan 13:29 next collapse

yup. though if the laws of physics change then that also means the laws of physics holding your atoms together are gonna be blended up into a soup at the very least

dharmacurious@slrpnk.net on 08 Jan 14:48 collapse

Unless they change into a set of physical laws in which magic is real, and the turtle of enormous girth holds us all together in his mind!

Scubus@sh.itjust.works on 08 Jan 17:54 collapse

That seems wildly improbable. What are you going to push off of to get you to speeds faster than light? There could be gimmicky ways like expanding / contracting space, but thats not moving faster than light, thats space changing faster than light. Changing cosmic topology to allow stable wormholes could possibly do something similar, but that could just as easily mean that you and all other matter exist in the exact same location. That would be… not fun

dharmacurious@slrpnk.net on 08 Jan 20:02 collapse

But if the laws of physics were to change, who’s to say what’s possible‽ Star trek future is in the works!

Scubus@sh.itjust.works on 08 Jan 20:34 collapse

More likely infinite energy just became a thing and you explode 🔥

dharmacurious@slrpnk.net on 08 Jan 21:00 collapse

There’s a principle, I can’t remember the name of it, but basically it goes that the universe exists in such a way as to support life, because if it didn’t, there would be no one around to discuss the ways in which the universe might have formed. Which is to say, while it’s all good to contemplate a different set of physical laws in which we could not exist, we cannot use the condition of our existing as proof that the universe must allow us to exist. Any universe in which an observer exists is necessarily a universe in which an observercould exist. We will only ever get to observe that which allows our existence.

It’s mainly used, to my knowledge, to attempt to dissuade the religious of ideas of a creator deity.

But I think here it has another application. If false vacuum decay happens, and all of everything just goes poof, that’s not interesting. There will be no observer, no one to mark it, no one to study it. On top of that, no one to even know there was once someone. Who knows, maybe it’s happened hundreds of trillions of times, maybe infinite times, maybe once, maybe never. Either way, we, and anyone else out there, will have no way of knowing, or remembering, or anything else. So it’s not interesting. There’s nothing of value to be learned, because there’s no way to use the knowledge to do anything.

But contemplating the ways in which it could happen and we could survive? Suddenly a new set of physical laws govern us? Different, but just similar enough that we don’t explode, implode, or just dissipate into component atoms (if atoms still exist!)? That’s interesting! That’s worth contemplation and thought! At the very least it’s worth a damn fine dime store paperback sci Fi novel!

Let’s do something interesting here! What’s your wish list for a change in our physical laws that still allows our existence? I went utopian, ftl space flight, nothing else changes. But maybe it’s some mad max universe now? Maybe it changes our physical structure enough that we’re all cronenberg monsters limping our way through the universe in tiny, slapped together vessels that we put together as we saw what was approaching on the horizon of the observable universe, and in the new laws planets can’t form? Searching, seeking, viciously lonely abominations, wandering a void unlike anything we’ve ever experienced?

Maybe the only change is that idiots stop voting and wealth disparity disappears somewhere. Be adventurous! Be the change you hope the decay will bring!

ilinamorato@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 00:34 collapse

There’s a principle, I can’t remember the name of it, but basically it goes that the universe exists in such a way as to support life, because if it didn’t, there would be no one around to discuss the ways in which the universe might have formed.

The Anthropic Principle. It’s a mind-bender, especially because it’s fundamentally unfalsifiable.

Scubus@sh.itjust.works on 09 Jan 04:07 next collapse

I thought it was the self observation principle?

ilinamorato@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 07:28 collapse

I’ve never heard of that name for it, though the “observation selection” principle might be what you’re thinking of. They’re synonyms.

Scubus@sh.itjust.works on 09 Jan 08:40 collapse

Important edit at the bottom

You are correct.Notably, I don’t believe it’s unfalsifiable, its just fundamentally true. You cant observe yourself in any reality where you are incapable of onserving yourself.

By applying both that and the many worlds hypothesis, the idea of quantum immortality comes up, and thats a real mind bender. Its also a way to verifiably prove many worlds accurate(afaik the only way)

Basically (very basically), anything that can happen, does. Its simply that each possible action happens in a seperate time stream, and each new possible action results in said time streams splitting into two realities; one where the action happened, and one where it did not.

But by the anthropic principle, you will only ever find yourself in a reality where you can observe yourself.

Hence, if you set up an expirement such that if a single atom decays in a chunk of uranium you die, the odds are stacked almost infinitely in favor of you dying, and one of two things will happen.

In the case many worlds is true, despite all the odds, there will be a universe in which you survive, and due to the self observation principle, that will always be the one you find yourself in. You obviously cant observe yourself in any reality where you died.

In the case that many worlds is false, you simply die. You still cant observe yourself in that reality, so for you reality simply stops.

This means that if it is physically possible for you to survive something, from your perspective(assuming many eorkds is true) you will always survive. That is the idea behind quantum immortality.

The downside is that others are still able to observe you dying. So in the vast majority of realities, they observe you die and label the expiriment inconclusive. In the reality in which you live, it could just be a massive statistical fluke. I suppose you could run the expiriment again, but youd suffer the same issues as the first time, where in almost every case, they witness you die and deem it inconclusive. After having repeated this twice and yet you still find yourself in the reality where you survived, id say thats basically proof that many worlds is accurate, but only that reality out of the uncountably high number of realities stemming from this expiriment would have evidence. In all the others you just die.

To reiterate though, assuming many worlds is accurate, the expiriment carries no risk to you. Due to the anthropic principle, you will always find yourself in the reality in which you survive.

Edit: This wikipedia article doesnt mention the anthropic principle, but it very vaguely gestures towards the idea on an individual scale rather than a cosmological. I think that is where my confusion came from, I have only heard of the “anthropic principle” in terms of cosmology, whereas im pretty sure ive heard of the “self observation bias” or something similar as basically the application of the anthropic principle to an indiviual. I started this rabbit hole here years ago.

ilinamorato@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 15:03 next collapse

I don’t believe it’s unfalsifiable, its just fundamentally true. You cant observe yourself in any reality where you are incapable of onserving yourself.

As you note, it’s the only logically-consistent framework through which to view the world we live in. But are there other ways in which the universe could’ve formed that we might be able to falsify it?

Imagine two universes, A and B. They’re entirely disconnected and independent from one another; no matter or energy can flow in either direction, except that through some exotic process, a small window exists in universe A through which universe B can be observed without affecting it in any way (Heisenbergs HATE this!). Universe A is just as our own is, including our existence, with the single exception of this window. In universe B, however, the laws of physics do not permit carbon atoms to form in stars, so no sentient life has ever formed.

In those universes, then, the Anthropic Principle would be falsified; as the residents of Universe A could observe a universe in which they could not have arisen.

Or consider a Boltzmann Brain (or a simulated universe). Were we to discover that our existence was of either nature, that too would falsify the Anthropic Principle, as we are not actually observing a universe.

Anyway. It’s not falsifiable in our reality, as far as we can tell. But we can imagine ways in which it could be falsifiable.

pcalau12i@lemmygrad.ml on 10 Jan 15:22 collapse

By applying both that and the many worlds hypothesis, the idea of quantum immortality comes up, and thats a real mind bender. Its also a way to verifiably prove many worlds accurate(afaik the only way)

MWI only somewhat makes sense (it still doesn’t make much sense) if you assume the “branches” cannot communicate with each other after decoherence occurs. “Quantum immortality” mysticism assumes somehow your cognitive functions can hop between decoherent branches where you are still alive if they cease in a particular branch. It is self-contradictory. There is nothing in the mathematical model that would predict this and there is no mechanism to explain how it could occur.

Imagine creating a clone which is clearly not the same entity as you because it is standing in a different location and, due to occupying different frames of reference, your paths would diverge after the initial cloning, with the clone forming different memories and such. “Quantum immortality” would be as absurd as saying that if you then suddenly died, your cognitive processes would hop to your clone, you would “take over their body” so to speak.

Why would that occur? What possible mechanism would cause it? Doesn’t make any sense to me. It seems more reasonable to presume that if you die, you just die. Your clone lives on, but you don’t. In the grand multiverse maybe there is a clone of you that is still alive, but that universe is not the one you occupy, in this one your story ends.

It also has a problem similar to reincarnation mysticism. If MWI is correct (it’s not), then there would be an infinite number of other decoherent branches containing other “yous.” Which “you” would your consciousness hop into when you die, assuming this even does occur (it doesn’t)? It makes zero sense.

To reiterate though, assuming many worlds is accurate, the expiriment carries no risk to you. Due to the anthropic principle, you will always find yourself in the reality in which you survive.

You see the issue right here, you say the reality in which you survive, except there would be an infinite number of them. There would be no the reality, there would be a reality, just one of an infinitude of them. Yet, how is the particular one you find yourself in decided?

MWI is even worse than the clone analogy I gave, because it would be like saying there are an infinite number of clones of you, and when you die your cognitive processes hop from your own brain to one of theirs. Not only is there no mechanism to cause this, but even if we presume it is true, which one of your infinite number of clones would your cognitive processes take control of?

dharmacurious@slrpnk.net on 09 Jan 04:25 collapse

That’s it! And yep, total mindfuck. But also sort of… Profound, I guess

Kornblumenratte@feddit.org on 08 Jan 12:28 next collapse

“We like to destroy the universe at least every couple of months.”

ace_garp@lemmy.world on 08 Jan 15:09 next collapse

Well, that sucks.

8000gnat@reddthat.com on 08 Jan 16:06 next collapse

maybe you couldn’t survive it but I’m built different

xthexder@l.sw0.com on 09 Jan 02:19 collapse

I’m going to file this under the category of philosophy similar to “what if we’re living in a simulation?” and “parallel universe” theory. As far as I’m aware we have no evidence that there’s even such thing as a false vacuum, so this is all just speculation based on some theories.

Klear@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 07:41 collapse

Yeah, if you need existential dread, a gamma-ray burst could end us in an instant too and they’re confirmed to exist and much more likely.

caseyweederman@lemmy.ca on 09 Jan 10:51 collapse

Yeah but then we get to be big and green, or stretchy, or invisible etcetera

kunegis@mander.xyz on 08 Jan 06:12 next collapse

Obligatory mention of the novel [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schild's_Ladder](Schild’s Ladder) by Greg Egan.

Such a scenario would be interesting indeed.

TheFinn@discuss.tchncs.de on 08 Jan 14:08 collapse

His books are always at least a little mind-bending

ace_garp@lemmy.world on 08 Jan 15:04 collapse

He is exceptional at writing hard sci-fi that unnerves you.

I’m moderately certain, whichever future timeline we move to, there will be aspects of Egan’s works.

Modern day Jules Verne, recommended to read at least one book of his.

ZkhqrD5o@lemmy.world on 08 Jan 08:29 next collapse

If our particular bubble of the universe has remained unmolested for 13.8 billion years, it is safe to assume it will continue to be for the next 1000 years.

BellaDonna@mujico.org on 08 Jan 15:51 next collapse

Until we build a particle accelerator that does something novel that even the rest of the universe never managed to do

Buddahriffic@lemmy.world on 08 Jan 22:18 next collapse

Also it’s not like assuming it will collapse in the next decade will make any difference other than having a harder time enjoying the time before then.

markinov@lemmygrad.ml on 09 Jan 00:11 next collapse

i don’t know quantum mechanics or much about particles. I watched a video on False vacuum decay, and it says if higgs change state it might change the laws of physics

So can’t it be that the universe had change of states of other particles maybe in past (billions year before life) that changed the laws of physics and so on.

TriflingToad@sh.itjust.works on 09 Jan 13:36 collapse

that’s what the vacuum aliens WANT you to think

OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml on 08 Jan 08:33 next collapse

How you know the Wikipedia article is good

<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/cbcff603-59b1-411c-89fe-14c721bbe03c.jpeg">

iAvicenna@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 15:07 collapse

didnt need the wikipedia page. soon as I read a couple pop sci articles on this I was like “welp this shit sounds dangerous it was nice to know you all”

Comment105@lemm.ee on 09 Jan 19:36 collapse

I’m about as worried about this as I am about galaxy eating monsters. Not at all, really.

I’m more bothered by our apparently non-existent ability to detect and divert asteroids. More than that, I’m terrified of our habit of using global cataclysm as a strategic threat. But at the same time I feel like a species that acts like this probably should end themselves like that. Russian civilians consent to nuclear apocalypse.

So yeah, not very bothered by idea of false vacuum.

Pulptastic@midwest.social on 08 Jan 13:31 next collapse

Metastable equilibria.

Feathercrown@lemmy.world on 08 Jan 16:22 next collapse

Luckily, this is the epitome of that Epicurus quote:

Why should I fear death? If I am, then death is not. If Death is, then I am not. Why should I fear that which can only exist when I do not?

lightnsfw@reddthat.com on 08 Jan 16:36 next collapse

It’s not the death I’m worried about. I just don’t want to suffer leading up to it or put my family through some long drawn out ordeal watching me die.

Fridgeratr@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 08 Jan 16:52 collapse

Well good news, false vacuum decay would kill everyone on Earth instantly with no warning

lightnsfw@reddthat.com on 08 Jan 16:53 collapse

Then I’m not worried about it.

Fridgeratr@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 08 Jan 17:41 collapse

Same here. Like, that would obviously suck, but 🤷

Sturgist@lemmy.ca on 08 Jan 18:59 collapse

I mean sure, it’d suck, but no one would be around to think it sucks, so it’d be fine 😎👆👉👆👉

Klear@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 07:39 collapse

How to remove all suffering. Utilitarians hate this simple trick!

threeduck@aussie.zone on 08 Jan 22:41 next collapse

You know how when you get put under for anaesthesia, and you don’t notice the time you were gone? It’s like a cut in the tape of life.

What if death is like that, and BAM your consciousness re-emerges billions of years in the future the moment you die.

But your consciousness is alone. And in pitch black nothingness. Forever.

Famko@lemmy.world on 08 Jan 23:29 next collapse

Entropy would end up taking your consciousness as well, so I doubt you’d be there, 14.3 billions years later, forever.

ilinamorato@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 00:26 collapse

We don’t really know what consciousness is, so we can’t really be sure that it is subject to entropy.

frayedpickles@lemmy.cafe on 10 Jan 19:38 collapse

We have nothing to indicate anything to the contrary (other than denial)

ilinamorato@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 21:46 collapse

Also true!

Earflap@reddthat.com on 09 Jan 05:03 collapse

This is what I think happens. You don’t experience death, you just reemerge on the other side, no matter how long it takes.

The chances of your brain being created were infinitely small before you were born, but it still only took 14 billion years for it to happen.

Dyskolos@lemmy.zip on 09 Jan 12:55 next collapse

Well, maybe it’s because we mostly fear the WAY towards death, not the end of being a thing that is. Unless we get hit by a moving train…

jwt@programming.dev on 10 Jan 00:40 collapse

Why should I fear death? If I am, then death is not. If Death is, then I am not

Death will be, so we will cease to be. Sounds like he is was whistling past the graveyard with that quote…

Feathercrown@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 05:15 collapse

And when you do, you no longer have to worry about it. In fact, you can’t.

jwt@programming.dev on 10 Jan 18:34 collapse

Not much of a consoling thought to me.

Feathercrown@lemmy.world on 10 Jan 22:03 collapse

When I was younger one day I was thinking about death and I suddenly truly understood the concept of nothing after death. When you die, the entire universe might as well go with you. Once you spend enough time with that realization, you’ll also realize it’s pointless to fear it. Or at least, I did. Hopefully it’ll work for you too.

<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d04e043c-e0ed-4222-ac05-672ab43ec8b2.png">

BigBenis@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 07:50 next collapse

Prions

iAvicenna@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 15:10 next collapse

welp this parallel universe goes down the drain too

Stonewyvvern@lemmy.world on 09 Jan 19:09 next collapse

Stop reading my mind!

nothacking@discuss.tchncs.de on 11 Jan 05:33 collapse

Sounds like a great reason not to bother worrying about it to me.