fogstormberry@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 04 Sep 2024 12:51
nextcollapse
its probably just chance :(
TomMasz@lemmy.world
on 04 Sep 2024 13:35
nextcollapse
Heaven forbid an animal have emotions.
TrousersMcPants@lemmy.world
on 04 Sep 2024 14:19
nextcollapse
Yeah, why is it âjust chanceâ? I donât understand the idea that animals have no emotions, itâs weird.
RubberElectrons@lemmy.world
on 04 Sep 2024 14:24
nextcollapse
We all know they do. It just makes compartmentalizing other⌠activities easier for some people.
NielsBohron@lemmy.world
on 04 Sep 2024 14:36
collapse
But they are not human emotions, so to assign human emotions to animals is a misnomer.
RubberElectrons@lemmy.world
on 04 Sep 2024 14:42
nextcollapse
How do you know?
My pets express themselves pretty clearly, despite having much more limited ability to communicate across species lines.
I feel reasonably confident in stating that I believe animals are conscious, just to varying depths.
NielsBohron@lemmy.world
on 04 Sep 2024 15:11
collapse
My pets express themselves pretty clearly, despite having much more limited ability to communicate across species lines.
They express wants and needs, not emotions. Assuming that they have emotions that are the same as human emotions is anthropomorphization. They might have some analogous emotions, and boredom in a mammal might seem similar to human boredom, but where do you draw the line? Can a dog experience ennui? Can a cat experience a lack of fulfillment? Can a snake experience depression?
I feel reasonably confident in stating that I believe animals are conscious, just to varying depths.
I donât disagree, but you canât say that animals that evolved consciousness in completely different environments and with different senses and neurology would experience emotion in the same way as humans. Apes, sure, they are really close and probably the easiest argument for human emotions in non-human species, but other mammals get farther and farther from human experience and emotion, and itâs presumptuous of humans to assume that they experience emotions the same way. Read âWhat Is It Like to Be a Batâ for some of the philosophical and scientific issues with assigning human emotions to other mammals.
And other intelligent animals that are further removed from humanity on the evolutionary chain would have even more alien emotions. Humans can feel empathy for an octopus or African Greys, but can either of those animals feel empathy for humans? What about curiosity? They seem curious, but how can we know if they experience curiosity that is anything like human curiosity?
grrgyle@slrpnk.net
on 04 Sep 2024 17:20
nextcollapse
I think of that paper often, though I think it applies equally to other humans. Like Iâll never know how it feels to be Doug unless I fully become Doug, and thus lose my own perspective.
Like how much of empathy is just projection?
I feel like a lot of it. We can talk about similarities in physiological responses to events, but as far as the actual subjective âqualiaâ (I think Iâm using the term correctly) đ¤ˇââď¸
NielsBohron@lemmy.world
on 04 Sep 2024 18:07
collapse
Hell yeah, youâre killing it with these links, thank you.
Iâm not surprised itâs a known phenomenon, but still excited to catch up on othersâ thoughts.
NielsBohron@lemmy.world
on 04 Sep 2024 19:27
collapse
No problem! Iâm just glad my semi-obsessive reading of wikipedia is helping others, too
RubberElectrons@lemmy.world
on 05 Sep 2024 15:04
nextcollapse
Unfortunately Iâve got to disagree with you from the outset, they do in fact express emotions, having witnessed one of my pets feel less inclined to partake in activities he very much normally enjoyed when his compatriot of a different species eventually passed away due to age. That is one clear example Iâve observed on my own, several times in a couple of different species over the years (unfortunately).
Itâs a bit pedantic, in truth, to state that these animals donât feel human emotions. Do all of us experience ennui for that matter? Envy, to the same level as one another? Which leads to a paradox of how one defines a conscious, human mind at all, if it were indeed based only on what emotions are present when presented with a similar stimulus.
Further, Iâm noticing that youâre focused on dancing around âare they humanâ, not âare they consciousâ, a more interesting & insightful question. Unfortunately, Iâve noticed this tactic among people who donât want to feel bad about eating other conscious beings. If you eat other passengers on this ship called earth, so be it, but avoid the cowardice that comes with assigning them lower value in a pseudo-intellectual manner.
Do you think animals are capable of being curious, even when thereâs no impetus for them to be? I certainly do.
NielsBohron@lemmy.world
on 05 Sep 2024 17:10
collapse
Do all of us experience ennui for that matter? Envy, to the same level as one another?
As noted elsewhere, this is an ongoing philosophical discussion called The Problem of Other Minds. Iâd link it, but since you canât be bothered to read the links already present, I donât think thereâs much point.
Which leads to a paradox of how one defines a conscious, human mind at all, if it were indeed based only on what emotions are present when presented with a similar stimulus.
Youâre missing the point that all humanity, collectively, as a species has largely the same senses, evolutionary history, and brain structure. Therefore, despite experiencing the emotions differently and to different extremes, we are mostly capable of experiencing the same emotions. Take away that shared brain structure and shared evolutionary history, and itâs a very large, unfounded assumption to think that other species have the same emotions.
Further, Iâm noticing that youâre focused on dancing around âare they humanâ, not âare they consciousâ
No, I literally agreed with you that consciousness is a spectrum and that most life falls somewhere on that spectrum. Buy hey, go ahead and ignore that so you can build yourself a strawman. I never said anywhere that I eat meat, so youâre just imagining things so you can build an argument against a statement I never made.
Do you think animals are capable of being curious, even when thereâs no impetus for them to be? I certainly do.
This sentence right here is everything I need to know about your stance. Youâre either not willing to consider or able to understand that different species experience consciousness and emotion as an evolved trait, and when the evolutionary drivers are different, the emotions are different. Any species that evolves the ability to be curious will have done so because itâs an evolutionary advantage, but if the evolutionary pressure and the senses and the literal brain structure is different, then the emotion of âcuriosityâ will be different. Assuming that other species experience curiosity the same way as humans is exceptionally close-minded.
Youâre not doing other species any favors by anthropomorphizing them; youâre just limiting your own understanding.
RubberElectrons@lemmy.world
on 06 Sep 2024 00:52
collapse
Quite a long, pedantic response.
I didnât in fact read your other links, nice to see youâre unable to imagine others having lives and limited time. At no point did I say you ate meat, but that you are using similar tactics.
Curious, how much writing you do when all I ask is whether you think animals experience curiosity, and how much of it doesnât have anything to do with that question.
Rolling back through your overly elaborate discussions here, youâll note that I never said humans and animals had the same emotions, nor to the same level we as a species do. But I do say what they have is analogous, and that the line between anthropomorphism and observation can itself be a fuzzy concept.
Do you understand that, or will you resort to ad hominem again?
NielsBohron@lemmy.world
on 06 Sep 2024 01:17
collapse
You seem unable to distinguish between nuance and pedantry, so itâs unlikely that we will be able to have a productive conversation on a topic that revolves around nuance.
Have a nice day.
RubberElectrons@lemmy.world
on 06 Sep 2024 03:39
collapse
Hmm, I donât think thatâs true either. You as well, stranger.
theluckyone@lemmy.world
on 05 Sep 2024 23:19
collapse
You state that animals are expressing wants and needs, not emotions, then ask questions that can only be answered by âwe donât knowâ.
Iâd sooner think you do not know the former, either.
NielsBohron@lemmy.world
on 05 Sep 2024 23:41
collapse
Fair. I could have been more accurate by saying âthey are exhibiting behavior that has been reinforced by certain positive responses,â but thatâs a little wordy.
Until we have better understanding and dictionary for their emotions, using names of human emotions instead can be a good approximation.
NielsBohron@lemmy.world
on 04 Sep 2024 17:10
nextcollapse
using names of human emotions instead can be a good approximation
It can be, but it can also be a gross misrepresentation. Outside of higher mammals, it seems safer to me to assume that their emotions are extremely dissimilar and human emotions are poor analogues at best.
Iâm not even sure a shared taxonomy of human emotions is particularly accurate, given how differently people sense even nameable emotions.
But theyâre still valid emotions ofc, just kinda unknowable
IMongoose@lemmy.world
on 04 Sep 2024 17:17
collapse
Animal emotions is a hugely debated and studied topic, at least it was 10 years ago. It was a grave sin to anthropomorphize animals that have not been properly studied when I was in school. That comment is probably a tongue in cheek comment on that
spacesatan@lazysoci.al
on 05 Sep 2024 01:28
collapse
âThey better not have emotions or holy shit Iâm gonna have [more] nightmares about what we did to those dogs/rats/monkeysâ
funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works
on 05 Sep 2024 01:58
collapse
itâs more that what we perceive may be not what animals feel, especially as cute behaviors get them more attention, itâs self-reinforcing.
a cat may look like theyâre having an existential crisis but may be feeling an emotion humans donât have, like âready to hunt but need to conserve limited energy while remaining very alertâ
a dog may look happy but actually is upset and hungry so is doing the thing that gets them the treat
lolcatnip@reddthat.com
on 05 Sep 2024 22:52
collapse
The weird part isnât animals having emotions, itâs when they seem to be expressing them in ways that make sense to us. Everyone whoâs had a dog or cat knows they express emotions very differently from us.
match@pawb.social
on 05 Sep 2024 23:41
nextcollapse
just for that Iâm gonna push your coffee cup off the table (love you)
intensely_human@lemm.ee
on 06 Sep 2024 10:48
collapse
Iâve had dogs and cats and their emotions make sense to me. They seem to express them in ways that make sense to me.
FreshLight@sh.itjust.works
on 04 Sep 2024 16:52
nextcollapse
"Where feathers? :( "
- That pademelon probably
jack@hexbear.net
on 04 Sep 2024 19:10
nextcollapse
is it really that hard to believe an animal could be sad?
UlyssesT@hexbear.net
on 04 Sep 2024 20:02
collapse
is it really that hard to believe an animal could be sad?
People that think emotions are exclusive to human beings either never had pets or never should have had pets.
ohwhatfollyisman@lemmy.world
on 05 Sep 2024 01:55
nextcollapse
TIL about pademelons. theyâre definitely more intriguing than their kin, watermelons and muskmelons.
Flocklesscrow@lemm.ee
on 05 Sep 2024 16:56
collapse
Just wait till they join the Imperial Senate
ReiRose@lemmy.world
on 06 Sep 2024 01:29
nextcollapse
Put it back please!
Sam_Bass@lemmy.world
on 06 Sep 2024 03:44
collapse
threaded - newest
Let bro touch some feathers man đ
I love when I see the word âCanoodleâ
Canoodle deez nutz LMAO GOTTEM
<img alt="" src="https://beehaw.org/pictrs/image/78ed7578-0d23-432e-9f90-a49813786a99.webp">
its probably just chance :(
Heaven forbid an animal have emotions.
Yeah, why is it âjust chanceâ? I donât understand the idea that animals have no emotions, itâs weird.
We all know they do. It just makes compartmentalizing other⌠activities easier for some people.
But they are not human emotions, so to assign human emotions to animals is a misnomer.
How do you know?
My pets express themselves pretty clearly, despite having much more limited ability to communicate across species lines.
I feel reasonably confident in stating that I believe animals are conscious, just to varying depths.
They express wants and needs, not emotions. Assuming that they have emotions that are the same as human emotions is anthropomorphization. They might have some analogous emotions, and boredom in a mammal might seem similar to human boredom, but where do you draw the line? Can a dog experience ennui? Can a cat experience a lack of fulfillment? Can a snake experience depression?
I donât disagree, but you canât say that animals that evolved consciousness in completely different environments and with different senses and neurology would experience emotion in the same way as humans. Apes, sure, they are really close and probably the easiest argument for human emotions in non-human species, but other mammals get farther and farther from human experience and emotion, and itâs presumptuous of humans to assume that they experience emotions the same way. Read âWhat Is It Like to Be a Batâ for some of the philosophical and scientific issues with assigning human emotions to other mammals.
And other intelligent animals that are further removed from humanity on the evolutionary chain would have even more alien emotions. Humans can feel empathy for an octopus or African Greys, but can either of those animals feel empathy for humans? What about curiosity? They seem curious, but how can we know if they experience curiosity that is anything like human curiosity?
I think of that paper often, though I think it applies equally to other humans. Like Iâll never know how it feels to be Doug unless I fully become Doug, and thus lose my own perspective.
Like how much of empathy is just projection?
I feel like a lot of it. We can talk about similarities in physiological responses to events, but as far as the actual subjective âqualiaâ (I think Iâm using the term correctly) đ¤ˇââď¸
I believe you just hit upon what is called The Problem of Other Minds in philosophical terms
Hell yeah, youâre killing it with these links, thank you.
Iâm not surprised itâs a known phenomenon, but still excited to catch up on othersâ thoughts.
No problem! Iâm just glad my semi-obsessive reading of wikipedia is helping others, too
Unfortunately Iâve got to disagree with you from the outset, they do in fact express emotions, having witnessed one of my pets feel less inclined to partake in activities he very much normally enjoyed when his compatriot of a different species eventually passed away due to age. That is one clear example Iâve observed on my own, several times in a couple of different species over the years (unfortunately).
Itâs a bit pedantic, in truth, to state that these animals donât feel human emotions. Do all of us experience ennui for that matter? Envy, to the same level as one another? Which leads to a paradox of how one defines a conscious, human mind at all, if it were indeed based only on what emotions are present when presented with a similar stimulus.
Further, Iâm noticing that youâre focused on dancing around âare they humanâ, not âare they consciousâ, a more interesting & insightful question. Unfortunately, Iâve noticed this tactic among people who donât want to feel bad about eating other conscious beings. If you eat other passengers on this ship called earth, so be it, but avoid the cowardice that comes with assigning them lower value in a pseudo-intellectual manner.
Do you think animals are capable of being curious, even when thereâs no impetus for them to be? I certainly do.
As noted elsewhere, this is an ongoing philosophical discussion called The Problem of Other Minds. Iâd link it, but since you canât be bothered to read the links already present, I donât think thereâs much point.
Youâre missing the point that all humanity, collectively, as a species has largely the same senses, evolutionary history, and brain structure. Therefore, despite experiencing the emotions differently and to different extremes, we are mostly capable of experiencing the same emotions. Take away that shared brain structure and shared evolutionary history, and itâs a very large, unfounded assumption to think that other species have the same emotions.
No, I literally agreed with you that consciousness is a spectrum and that most life falls somewhere on that spectrum. Buy hey, go ahead and ignore that so you can build yourself a strawman. I never said anywhere that I eat meat, so youâre just imagining things so you can build an argument against a statement I never made.
This sentence right here is everything I need to know about your stance. Youâre either not willing to consider or able to understand that different species experience consciousness and emotion as an evolved trait, and when the evolutionary drivers are different, the emotions are different. Any species that evolves the ability to be curious will have done so because itâs an evolutionary advantage, but if the evolutionary pressure and the senses and the literal brain structure is different, then the emotion of âcuriosityâ will be different. Assuming that other species experience curiosity the same way as humans is exceptionally close-minded.
Youâre not doing other species any favors by anthropomorphizing them; youâre just limiting your own understanding.
Quite a long, pedantic response.
I didnât in fact read your other links, nice to see youâre unable to imagine others having lives and limited time. At no point did I say you ate meat, but that you are using similar tactics.
Curious, how much writing you do when all I ask is whether you think animals experience curiosity, and how much of it doesnât have anything to do with that question.
Rolling back through your overly elaborate discussions here, youâll note that I never said humans and animals had the same emotions, nor to the same level we as a species do. But I do say what they have is analogous, and that the line between anthropomorphism and observation can itself be a fuzzy concept.
Do you understand that, or will you resort to ad hominem again?
You seem unable to distinguish between nuance and pedantry, so itâs unlikely that we will be able to have a productive conversation on a topic that revolves around nuance.
Have a nice day.
Hmm, I donât think thatâs true either. You as well, stranger.
You state that animals are expressing wants and needs, not emotions, then ask questions that can only be answered by âwe donât knowâ.
Iâd sooner think you do not know the former, either.
Fair. I could have been more accurate by saying âthey are exhibiting behavior that has been reinforced by certain positive responses,â but thatâs a little wordy.
Until we have better understanding and dictionary for their emotions, using names of human emotions instead can be a good approximation.
It can be, but it can also be a gross misrepresentation. Outside of higher mammals, it seems safer to me to assume that their emotions are extremely dissimilar and human emotions are poor analogues at best.
That does not mean they do not have value.
Also Iâm shocked we havenât seen a snake person come and argue they get depressed.
Iâm not even sure a shared taxonomy of human emotions is particularly accurate, given how differently people sense even nameable emotions.
But theyâre still valid emotions ofc, just kinda unknowable
Animal emotions is a hugely debated and studied topic, at least it was 10 years ago. It was a grave sin to anthropomorphize animals that have not been properly studied when I was in school. That comment is probably a tongue in cheek comment on that
âThey better not have emotions or holy shit Iâm gonna have [more] nightmares about what we did to those dogs/rats/monkeysâ
itâs more that what we perceive may be not what animals feel, especially as cute behaviors get them more attention, itâs self-reinforcing.
a cat may look like theyâre having an existential crisis but may be feeling an emotion humans donât have, like âready to hunt but need to conserve limited energy while remaining very alertâ
a dog may look happy but actually is upset and hungry so is doing the thing that gets them the treat
The weird part isnât animals having emotions, itâs when they seem to be expressing them in ways that make sense to us. Everyone whoâs had a dog or cat knows they express emotions very differently from us.
just for that Iâm gonna push your coffee cup off the table (love you)
Iâve had dogs and cats and their emotions make sense to me. They seem to express them in ways that make sense to me.
"Where feathers? :( "
- That pademelon probably
is it really that hard to believe an animal could be sad?
People that think emotions are exclusive to human beings either never had pets or never should have had pets.
TIL about pademelons. theyâre definitely more intriguing than their kin, watermelons and muskmelons.
Just wait till they join the Imperial Senate
Put it back please!
Sademelon