from sailingbythelee@lemmy.world to selfhosted@lemmy.world on 26 Jun 17:11
https://lemmy.world/post/16955090
Good day, friends. Since catching the self-hosting bug, I’ve set up a couple of Proxmox home servers with a bunch of services I enjoy.
Now I’d like to set up a server and local network on my sailboat so I can self-host servarr, pihole, and other services while traveling. The tricky part is that everything on the boat is 12V and I would rather not use an inverter, if possible. Also, it needs to be ultra-low power so I can leave it on at all times and not to deplete my batteries too much.
Criteria:
- ultra-low power
- Small form factor
- runs on 12V
- 10 TB of storage plus ability to make full local backup
- Capable of hosting servarr, audiobookshelf, freshrss, etc. via docker
- HDMI output
- Full local mirror/backup of the entire file system, including the media library.
- We will have two laptops and two Android phones to access the server, so the server doesn’t need to run a desktop environment.
I’ll have a mobile wifi router and a cellular signal booster (or maybe Starlink eventually) for internet access. Since internet bandwidth will be limited and expensive while traveling, I don’t want to have to re-download a massive media llibrary if the storage media fail. Thus, I want the media library to be mirrored or fully backed up or synced locally.
What hardware and Linux distro would you use in this situation?
threaded - newest
Get a PicoPSU for automotive use (there are two varieties, one that needs stable 12v and another that can run directly off a battery with varying voltage).
I think you’ve hit on the key difference between home and boat use: the variable voltage. My battery varies between about 13.3V and about 11.2V depending on its charge state. I’ll look into these.
When you are actively charging the batteries off a solar panel for example, it will be even higher, up to
17V14.5V or so I think. The automotive PicoPSUs only cost a little more and will smooth it out up to 24V I think… there are even some models that go up to 48V.Edit: why the down-votes? Is this incorrect?
i didn’t downvote but 17v on a 12v battery maybe seems a bit high. I’m more used to about 7-14% over (maybe up to 14v on a 12v batt) when charged/floating but i don’t use solar anywhere currently, and i usually work on 48v systems. i normally expect to see about 54v on a fully charged battery string (13.5v per battery x4) with the rectifiers running.
i also second the opinion of running an automotive PSU for this situation.
edit: i looked it up since i was curious, some “12v” solar panels can output between 16-20v, but it’s recommended that you would use a charge controller, especially if you have lead-acid batteries
Yes that’s incorrect. Open circuit voltage for solar panels can be in the hundreds of volts, but you’re never gonna put that into your battery. You’re gonna run it through a charge controller that will bring it down to a normal voltage. For a lead acid that will be somewhere around 13.6V and 14.4V for LFP.
I’d recommend avoiding spinning disks and going all ssd if possible.
You can get 12v in atx power supplies.
You may want to consider something like a Lenovo tiny with a few large ssds.
What hardware does not run on 12 V?
Define ultra low power. Given the 10 TB + mirror (why?) I assume at least 2 HDDs have to spin. So at least 20 W total? I mean they can spin down, but leaving the system on 24/7 seems a bit far fetched, even if it only consumes 1 watt (0.1 A load, 2.4 Ah per day).
Yeah, good point. Now that you mention it, there is no real reason to run the server 24/7 on the boat. Also, HDDs would not be happy with the amount of bouncing that small sailboats undergo while at sea.
This sounds like a job for a raspberry pi 5 with an m.2 hat for storage, software is a less important choice here, so ubuntu’s raspberry pi flavour would be my choice. Just make sure you give it power in a form it likes.
I just got an email about a new power supply board for the rpi5 - PD Power Extension Board for Raspberry Pi 5. It’s on their pihut website and is $20. Has multiple input types.
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Your best bet might be to use a laptop as the basis. They are already designed with power efficiency in mind, and you won’t need an external screen and keyboard for local problem solving.
I would also consider having a raspberry pi 3 or similar as a companion. Services that must be up all the time run on the pi (e.g. network admin). The main computer only gets kicked out of sleep mode when required. The pi 3 needs less power than the newer pis, while still having enough computing power to not lag unless pushed hard.
I definitely agree with SSDs. HDDs don’t do well when rotated when running. Boats are less than a stable platform.
This is a good idea. A modern laptop is already power efficient and has its own battery, which I guess would act like a UPS and protect the motherboard from big swings in voltage from the main battery bank.
I would get a laptop as well in that situation. Just make sure it is one that supports setting the charging threshold. Having it on all the time will kill the battery quickly if it keeps charging from 95 to 100%. It’s much better to keep it below 80%, which should still give enough “UPS time”.
The battery will also not electrically protect the motherboard from voltage swings. So get a good power adapter that can handle the voltages.
The original iPod had an HDD in it. You can rotate HDDs. Sharp impacts may be risky though, especially for a non-laptop drive.
HDDs can be made tolerant to it. Constant rotation still puts significant extra strain on the bearings, when spinning however. The drive will likely fail faster than an SSD.
For hardware, I would go with sata ssds for storage. I also would recommend a separate boot drive as it makes re installing without loosing data a breeze. You could go with a new processor from intel or amd, and make sure it has onboard graphics. You should also go into the BIOS, enable xmp (always do that. It’s free performance), and look for power saving settings. You could go for arm, but most arm computers lack expansion options and that can mean you use USB for drives which is unreliable. I think dc atx power supplies are a thing, but I know nothing about them. I would recommend doing ext4 and a raid, ideally 6 or 10. That will give you stability (from filesystem issues) and good reliability. I know RAID is not a backup, but in this case it may be what you want. RAID is for uptime, and it would be able to usually buy you enough time to finish your trip, or you could even have spare drives onboard and fix it while you’re out in like 10 minutes. Also, I would highly recommend researching how to power it well. Starting an engine can mess with the power and could fry a computer. I don’t know if a dc ups is a thing, but if it is, get it.
For software, use whatever you want, mostly. I always use debian for servers, but proxmox would probably be fine. You can use powertop to make sure it runs efficiently.
For backup, maybe a blu-ray drive? I think you would want something that can withstand the salty environment, and maybe resist water. Thing is, even with BDXL discs, you only get a capacity of 100GiB each, so that’s a lot of disks.
What about an offsite backup? Your media library could live ashore (in a server at a friend’s house). You issue commands from your boat to download media, and then sync those files to your boat when it’s done. If you really need to recover from the backup, have your friend clone a disk and mail it to you.
Do you even need a backup? Would data redundancy be enough? Sure if your boat catches fire and sinks, your movies are gone, but that’s probably the least of your problems. If you just want to make sure that the salt and water doesn’t destroy your data, how about:
This would probably be cheapest and have the least complexity.
They said they want a local backup so they don’t have to redownload because bandwidth is expensive. I think a RAID makes more sense. I also don’t think btrfs is a great idea for a boat. Power failures will probably be somewhat common, and btrfs is not the most stable, so I don’t think I would trust it in weird conditions. Documentation is definitely a great idea though.
BTRFS should be stable in the case of power loss. That is to say, it ought to recover to a valid state. I believe the only unstable modes are RAID 5/6.
I’d recommend BTRFS in RAID1 mode over mdadm RAID1 + ext4. You get checksumming and scrubs to detect drive failures and data corruptions. You also have snapshotting, in case you’re prone to the occasional fat-fingered
rm -rf.The distro isn’t likely to be a factor here. Any (non-super-specialized) distro will be able to solve issues in about the same way.
I mean, any recommendation is going to just be people mentioning their preferred distro.
I don’t know whether saltwater exposure is a concern. If so, that may impose some constraints on heat generation (if you have to have it and storage hardware in a waterproof case).
Yes, I think you’re right that distro doesn’t matter. As I’ve been reading through the responses, I realize that the two main issues are storage (don’t want to use HDDs on a bounching boat, but SSDs are expensive per TB) and power (limited battery and variable voltage). As you say, corrosion may also been an issue that I hadn’t considered. I’ll probably have to check in with the sailing forums to see if people have trouble with their laptops corroding at sea. This server isn’t likely to get splashed directly, but it will be exposed to a lot of humidity and variable temperatures.
I would recommend something like a Pi as well, but it looks like you’re going to have to take it down to 5v. Maybe a NUC might be better.
But if you really want 20 TB, you’ll need to buy two drives at least 10 TB, and you’ll want them to be SSDs for the low power requirement. So that means you’ll need a device with two SATA ports, because I don’t think anyone makes NVMe drives that big. Oh, and be ready to pay a few thousand for each drive. Also you’ll want to keep one drive offline, in an ESD bag in a dry bag. So maybe one will be USB.
But for real low power, I’d suggest just plain turning it off. Booting doesn’t take that long any more. Or maybe suspend to disk, if you can find a system that supports it.
But overall, I would suggest reevaluating how important these things are to you. Generally, lots of electronics and nomadism don’t go together. Have you considered books? I’m sure you can find people to swap with when you’re in port.
Hmmm, looking at the cost of large SSDs, I think you’re right that I should downgrade my storage requirements. Or perhaps I could use a large HDD that is turned off while underway for “long-term” storage and a smaller SSD for media that I want immediately available. That would avoid the problem of spinning a HDD while bouncing around in high wind and waves.
And, yes, we do have books, lol. But we also enjoy movies. :)
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I’ve seen in this thread:
7 acronyms in this thread; the most compressed thread commented on today has 7 acronyms.
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Good bot.
Not directly an answer, but the CRT guy has a series of industrial computers for different environments, which could provide inspiration.
Some of them have direct DC inputs, some have anti-vibration designs, some have massive passive cooling!
The little guys series www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP3aKEG79DM&list=PLec1d3O…
I think a Synology box would work for you, or a TrueNas design - you could just build out one of their motherboards in your own itx case. These are good, robust, anti-vibration, mobile low power cpus, hardware selected for robustness and minimum heat. Stick it in a cupboard and forget about it, they run containers, and vms.
Yeah - industrial computers is the way. I would want something that can run at 60 c, and is water/dust proof. How to keep 20tb on a floating humidifier? Im not sure about this one, but swap drives often is probably a good idea.
Do you ride salt or sweet water?
I’m not the OP, but you can get 8TiB SSDs, they are spendy, but doable, no spinning disks required, the benefit of using a nas based solution is you can put a bunch of cheap SSDs in
I live on Lake Superior, but this server planning is for a year-long voyage from Lake Superior to New York to the Bahamas and back. So, I do need to take salt and humidity into account.
Lolwut? Someone downvotes you for that?
For hardware I recommend this guy to everyone: CWWK N100 mini PC w/ 4xNVMe hat
Get 4x4TB NVMe drives and you’ll have 12TB usable storage + parity drive.
It also uses a 12V power supply.
Relying on 4 nvme drive for low power isn’t ideal as nvme drive needs about twice more power compare to sata SSD.
That’s not correct. They can draw significantly more power when in use but also consume significantly less when not in use. You can use 2x SATA with this but you’re gonna spend more $$$/TB
Don’t forget to think about how to keep the salt air from corroding the electronics. Either build a spare or two that you keep sealed in plastic, or find an airtight case with an integrated heat sink or something.
Edit: you might want to look into conformal coating and dielectric grease (for the connectors) as well, although I don’t know enough about that to competently give advice beyond the mere suggestion.
Came here to say this. I’ve worked on systems for a restaurant on the beach and it was corroded as hell. We had the wireless access points in cheap “weatherproof” boxes and they got corroded. We replaced them once a year or so because it was so bad.
I always liked the idea of the small Lenovo ThinkEdge Servers, I just never had a usecase. Maybe these would work for you.
I’d like to design a similar off-grid system. What do you have in mind for mobile wifi router and cellular signal booster?
I was looking at something like this mini-router with OpenWRT:
GL.iNet GL-AXT1800 (Slate AX) Pocket-sized Wi-Fi 6 Gigabit Travel Router, Extender/Repeater for Hotel&Public Network, VPN Client&Server, OpenWrt, Adguard Home, USB 3.0, Network Storage, TF card slot a.co/d/0iP7qaKj
For a signal booster: weBoost Drive Reach Overland - Cell Phone Signal Booster for Off Road Vehicles | Boosts 5G & 4G LTE for All U.S. Carriers - Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile & More | Made in The U.S. | FCC Approved a.co/d/00PNi0AE
That travel router looks good. Will you also be using it to connect to the internet using a phone hotspot or just using it for a local network?
There are a lot of atom or mobile i3/i5 powered mini PCs that actually are powered with a 12v brick, in fact most of the industrial ones are. Small form factor, passive cooling, can play media for you and usually comes with 4x 1/2.5gbit Ethernet, so it can double as a router/switch. Usually 10-15w power draw.
Go to AliExpress and simply search for minipc and make sure it has a SATA connector for your hard drive.
I like the idea of using an industrial pc. Small sailboats experience a lot of vibration and sometimes violent bouncing, slamming, and heeling. Most things on a sailboat have been tossed around and flung onto the floor at some point, so it will have to be bolted down.
I don’t know, maybe something like this?
KINGDEL Desktop Computer, Fanless PC, Intel i7 8th Gen CPU, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB NVMe SSD, HD Port, VGA, 2xCOM RS232, W-11 Pro a.co/d/0eODy8RH
Something more like this a.co/d/0bgPCSvQ - it should use half the power, it’s way smaller, 2x SATA if you want 2 drives. I haven’t checked if this specific one is 12V, but there are dozens in the same form factor and with similar specs.
You’ve gotten a lot of good answers, so I’m going to do some out of the box thinking - maybe it will spark a few ideas.
Goal:
Issues:
So if I were going to do this myself, I’d start with a pelican or other similar watertight container. We don’t want the equipment getting wet, and we don’t want it exposed to the salty air.
I’d probably pick a usff computer, like a dell 9020 or maybe a framework motherboard. To get the storage, I’d get one of these to add multiple sata ports to the computer. Then its a matter of getting a bunch of ssds and powering them. I think the 12v goal is going to be too restrictive, most laptops need 19v to charge, so I’d just bite the bullet and get an inverter. If you’re really tight on power you could go with a pi, but the framework motherboard/usff both use mobile processors, and shouldn’t draw too much while idle.
Any wires that pass though to the case should be made through waterproof bulkheads.
Personally I’d nix the HDMI out requirement. One more port to keep track of and it complicates the self hosting. If you want it for media streaming to a TV then I’d recommend a roku and just run a jellyfin server on the computer. If you want it for server debugging I wouldn’t bother running it out of the case.
The last thing I’d do is figure out cooling. For this I’d probably create some sort of closed loop heat exchanger from the case to either the outside air or the lake/ocean itself. This could be as simple as a pump running water through two radiators, one in the case and the other outside or just dumped overboard. If you know your power usage ahead of time you might be able to get away with a peltier element, dumping the heat outside the case.
I’d probably put this all on its own power system, get a solar panel, battery, inverter, etc. It could even get topped off by the boat’s system if it needs extra juice.
Also whatever you do, I’d figure out a way to ensure you’re giving your system a clean and steady 12v.
I think you have a taste vor expensive Hobbies 😜
Uh-oh, you’ve triggered one of my favourite topics: cost-conscious cruising. Get ready, because I do enjoy dispelling myths about sailing. :)
People think sailing is expensive, but it is absolutely within reach for the middle class, as long as you are willing to put in the work to do your own maintenance and repair. Look at your average small-city marina and you’ll see that most of the sailboats are 30 to 40 year old fiberglass production boats. They basically last forever if you take care of them and at that age their cost depreciation curve has plateaued. So, the cost of entry is reasonable and relatively risk-free.
If you have any interest in sailing, I recommend checking out your local marina to see if they have a weekly keelboat race. Many sailors love to race and they always need crew. This is the best way to learn to sail for free. If you don’t like the pressure of racing, you can sign up for a learn-to-sail course for a couple hundred dollars.
If you enjoy that experience and want to cruise, I suggest reading a few practical books about cost-conscious cruising. Don’t watch the hot young video bloggers sailing million-dollar catamarans for YouTube and Instagram. Much like Linux vs Windows or open-source vs closed-source, sailing is as much about philosophy as it is about execution. You can spend big bucks on the latest and greatest, or you can buy old hardware and revive it with some learning and elbow grease.
The most common question in cruising is, how much does it cost? And the answer is, strangely, it costs as much or as little as you want to spend. You can spend millions or thousands of dollars, depending on your skills, your willingness to learn, and what you are willing to live with. I know a couple that lived for a year sailing the US East Coast in a 22-foot sailboat that they got for free. That’s an extremely small cruising boat, by the way, with just a bucket for a head.
Think of sailboat cruising like living in an RV: you can live in an old 1965 VW camper van or a tent trailer or fancy stainless steel Airstream or a huge diesel Winnebago. It’s up to you, but there are trade-offs. You can probably buy a broke-down old camper van on the cheap right now, if you are willing to learn to fix it up and then live in a very small space. Or you can work and scrimp for half a lifetime to afford that huge Winnebago. Most of us would pick something in the middle, making trade-offs between comfort, time, and cost.
A good book to start thinking about the philosophy of cost-conscious sailing is “Get Real, Get Gone” by Rick Page. Their philosophy is that small and simple is better than big and fancy for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which is affordability and the ability to get started sooner than later. But be careful. If you read it, you may ditch your life ashore and end up a sea gypsy floating around the Caribbean in a small boat learning to fix diesel engines!
Also, by the way, there are plenty of smart, nerdy, do-it-yourself sailors. There is significant overlap in attitudes and mindset between the do-it-yourself sailor and the self-hosting computer nerd.
But truly, I hope I have convinced you that sailing is not only for the rich. It is for the adventurous. As a matter of fact, I’m heading out today for a week of wilderness sailing on board my very affordable sailboat. Maybe I’ll see you out there one day!
Wow thanks for that explanation I don’t think sailing is for me tho I live like 6 to 8 hours away from the sea and like the closest larger lake is also a couple of hours. I thought of it more like one of those hobbies where there isn’t really a limit on how much you can spend like self hosting and analog audio as I’m really bad with self control when I get into something ^^ but thank you for taking the time to explain and giving me a new perspective on sailing.
This is self hosted dammit! But awesome writeup!
Post this in a piracy community and it goes full circle
There is a certain satisfying symmetry to sailing the high seas while sailing the high seas.
Arrrrr and ahoi o7
I run a NUC and a few other things off a 125W elcheapo $20 bestek(?) inverter off the house battery.
Sure it gets converted twice but the juice is cleaner in the end.
And consider DIYing a big house battery. The cells are cheap now. I built a 1200Ah LFP bank just because it fit nicely in the compartment. Then throw some solar at it.
And for backup, just get a large spinning external and plug it in occasionally to sync a copy. Put it back in the Tupperware for cold storage.