I seem to recall the men were in their undies and slathered in oil as well.
ValueSubtracted@startrek.website
on 25 Aug 23:52
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As much as “Me Too” was supposed to be about ridding the industry of sexual harassment (and worse), it also had knock-on effects in terms of storytelling, cast composition, etc.
I don’t think it’s controversial to say that “Enterprise” was not terribly progressive by modern standards (or, in my opinion, the standards of the time) when it came to female representation in particular.
benfell@infosec.exchange
on 25 Aug 23:58
nextcollapse
By such standards, the Original Series (#TOS) seems positively regressive. I don't mean to defend this, but I'm guessing that, at the time, it was perceived that Enterprise needed to fit into that regression.
ValueSubtracted@startrek.website
on 26 Aug 00:03
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Hmm, I don’t know about that. It seems less to me like them trying to “match” TOS, and more like a continuation of the trends established on late-period “Voyager”…
benfell@infosec.exchange
on 26 Aug 00:07
nextcollapse
@ValueSubtracted I recall noticing the sexism on Enterprise. I don't recall noticing it on Voyager, which had two strong female characters. But I'm an old man raised in a more chauvinistic era--I might not notice.
Stillwater@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 00:30
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Seven of Nine’s suit was painted on
clay_pidgin@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 00:44
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I definitely noticed that.
I think Janeway and 7 were well written. B’elana was mostly just angry.
Skullgrid@lemmy.world
on 26 Aug 00:48
nextcollapse
B’elana was mostly just angry.
I don’t remember shit about B’elana , or much of Voyager characterisation except :
Janeway : Hardass
Doctor : fun guy
Tuvok : generic serious vulcan
Neelix : obvious comic relief, silly
Chakotay : Native american guy with a cool face tat
B’elana being mostly angry makes sense as a Klingon and an engineer. each facet isn’t known for being sunshine on rainbows, combined, not exactly going to be a delight.
clay_pidgin@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 00:53
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True enough.
7 and the EMH we’re the best characters in the show, IMHO.
CmdrShepard49@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 04:55
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But what about Kess?
HubertManne@piefed.social
on 26 Aug 01:30
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Jeri was local and would appear regularly at local cons :p
clay_pidgin@sh.itjust.works
on 26 Aug 01:33
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I read B’elana as a point that the chief engineer doesn’t always need to be some composed nerd. Even a person with deep anger control issues, with interest in (Klingon) religion, can be a good fit for that position and can stand her ground to a literal Borg.
Plus ofc Janeway + B’elana and + 7 later, meant that most science-related decision were made by a group of women.
But as everyone on the cast, once 7 and doctor were out, the screentime was really compressed 😶
Yeah if they hadn’t struck gold with Jeri Ryan that whole situation would have been seen in a whole different light. She and the writers pulled that decision out of the gutter.
StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website
on 26 Aug 22:03
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I do recall that Enterprise was hyped as a response to the demands from (mostly male) fans who wanted a ‘return to exploration’, less ‘magic technology’ and implicitly ‘men doing stuff.’
The 1990s BBS hate of the women in leadership roles in the early seasons of Voyager was savage.
BalooUriza@social.tulsa.ok.us
on 26 Aug 14:32
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@ValueSubtracted I feel like the writers were visibly struggling with being painted into a corner by some extent by TOS, which would have been progressive for the 60s but backwards by the 90s. With a side order of being stuck, depending on market, with following or competing on another channel against Baywatch (mostly reruns but still).
TOS was famously a flop in the market, cancelled and then brought back by popular demand with a letter writing campaign. Which shows how important it is to let writers stick to their vision and what makes them creatively happy.
DarkCloud@lemmy.world
on 26 Aug 01:09
nextcollapse
Enterprise was ridiculously “Tits out for the boys” and it was a really weird direction to go after Voyager. Like Enterprise had some dumb dumb shit, frat boy type stuff.
Characters in their underwear for quarantine, women’s shirts slipping off because they were crawling around in the vent system. Stuff that didn’t make sense and was played for Scooby Doo style laughs.
you and @baines@lemmy.cafe are correct, though i consider that part of the triumph of 7. the writing and acting elevated that character way beyond the box they tried to put her in.
Some impressive gymnastics going on with the guy you’re replying to…
What I remember people saying about Enterprise at the time was along the lines of “hadn’t they learned their lesson with Voyager?” 7 of 9’s outfit was an embarrassing thing non-trekkies would point to when characterizing Trek fans as “virgin nerds”.
Jeri Ryan is just a good looking actress and spandex are very scifi.
ValueSubtracted@startrek.website
on 26 Aug 12:20
nextcollapse
Not that I think going straight to the source will sway you, but…
Brannon Braga:
It was late, but I was so excited […] He [Rick Berman] really liked the idea but he had the stroke of genius, ‘Make it a Borg babe.’
Jeri Ryan:
I knew exactly what I was in for when I had my first costume fitting. Clearly my character was added to the show for sex appeal, which remains the one way to get attention very quickly. I don’t think it’s the only way to get viewers to watch strong women, but it worked.
So no, “spandex are very scifi” doesn’t hold a lot of water in this case.
Whoa TV producers have sex-brained politics and just want mass appeal, you don’t say?
Doesn’t change the fact Voyager still did better on this issue, and the article says a lot about how a boys club mentality was embedded into Enterprise.
Does the question: “Did you somehow forget 7 of 9?” read “let’s limit the discussion to judging the women based on costumes alone” or say “Lets judge the character’s strengths based on why TV producers had them introduced”?
No, the discussion - and even the article is about how Enterprise is claiming to be “a man’s man’s version of Star Trek” a “boy’s club” and feel lucky they got in before Me Too happened.
So reiterating “Yeah, but TV producers really wanted Jeri Ryan to look sexy” doesn’t change those facts, or the topic.
Voyager took what producers gave them, and still wrote a deeper look into gender trauma with it.
Enterprise is the only one that gets skipped every rewatch time. I’ll just play the theme song once and move on.
Cornelius_Wangenheim@lemmy.world
on 26 Aug 10:32
nextcollapse
It’s a shame it was cancelled when it was. It really seemed like they had pulled their heads out of their asses by season 4.
HybridSarcasm@lemmy.world
on 30 Aug 11:21
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You mean the season with no cohesive arc and relies on recycling plots from other shows (mirror universe, aliens taking over bodies to observe reaction to disease, men falling for Orion woman, “Section 31”, etc, etc). This season was so desperate to show “we do that too” it was embarrassing. Even the way they ended the show was worse than just killing it.
Cornelius_Wangenheim@lemmy.world
on 30 Aug 17:38
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TNG didn’t have cohesive arcs and had its fair share of recycled plots. Are you going to argue it was also bad? Also, it’s a prequel. The entire point of the show is to revisit things but do it through the lens of an earlier and more inexperienced version of humanity.
Season 4 was when the writing improved and started feeling more Star Treky. Yes, there were terrible episodes, especially the series finale, but the average was substantially better. They finally started introducing the early Federation species and working to show how the Federation would form. The Andorian episodes in particular were great. There could have been a lot of great storylines about the Federation learning to work together or how relations with the Klingons and Romulans went south.
threaded - newest
I read their responses. I don’t understand how Star Trek Enterprise relates to Me Too and being a “Man’s Man” Star Trek. What are they trying to say?
Vulcan in booty shorts.
@roofuskit And slathered with lotion.
“decontamination gel” such a joke. Less of a mans man television and more lonely horndog television.
That’s sexist. No one complained when it was only men in the decontamination shower.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/ae0fe418-702e-477c-ac00-500adc84641d.jpeg">
I did.
I seem to recall the men were in their undies and slathered in oil as well.
As much as “Me Too” was supposed to be about ridding the industry of sexual harassment (and worse), it also had knock-on effects in terms of storytelling, cast composition, etc.
I don’t think it’s controversial to say that “Enterprise” was not terribly progressive by modern standards (or, in my opinion, the standards of the time) when it came to female representation in particular.
@ValueSubtracted @cybervseas
By such standards, the Original Series (#TOS) seems positively regressive. I don't mean to defend this, but I'm guessing that, at the time, it was perceived that Enterprise needed to fit into that regression.
Hmm, I don’t know about that. It seems less to me like them trying to “match” TOS, and more like a continuation of the trends established on late-period “Voyager”…
@ValueSubtracted I recall noticing the sexism on Enterprise. I don't recall noticing it on Voyager, which had two strong female characters. But I'm an old man raised in a more chauvinistic era--I might not notice.
Seven of Nine’s suit was painted on
I definitely noticed that.
I think Janeway and 7 were well written. B’elana was mostly just angry.
I don’t remember shit about B’elana , or much of Voyager characterisation except :
B’elana being mostly angry makes sense as a Klingon and an engineer. each facet isn’t known for being sunshine on rainbows, combined, not exactly going to be a delight.
True enough.
7 and the EMH we’re the best characters in the show, IMHO.
But what about Kess?
Jeri was local and would appear regularly at local cons :p
Awesome!
I read B’elana as a point that the chief engineer doesn’t always need to be some composed nerd. Even a person with deep anger control issues, with interest in (Klingon) religion, can be a good fit for that position and can stand her ground to a literal Borg.
Plus ofc Janeway + B’elana and + 7 later, meant that most science-related decision were made by a group of women.
But as everyone on the cast, once 7 and doctor were out, the screentime was really compressed 😶
Yeah if they hadn’t struck gold with Jeri Ryan that whole situation would have been seen in a whole different light. She and the writers pulled that decision out of the gutter.
I do recall that Enterprise was hyped as a response to the demands from (mostly male) fans who wanted a ‘return to exploration’, less ‘magic technology’ and implicitly ‘men doing stuff.’
The 1990s BBS hate of the women in leadership roles in the early seasons of Voyager was savage.
@ValueSubtracted I feel like the writers were visibly struggling with being painted into a corner by some extent by TOS, which would have been progressive for the 60s but backwards by the 90s. With a side order of being stuck, depending on market, with following or competing on another channel against Baywatch (mostly reruns but still).
@cybervseas
TOS was famously a flop in the market, cancelled and then brought back by popular demand with a letter writing campaign. Which shows how important it is to let writers stick to their vision and what makes them creatively happy.
Enterprise was ridiculously “Tits out for the boys” and it was a really weird direction to go after Voyager. Like Enterprise had some dumb dumb shit, frat boy type stuff.
Characters in their underwear for quarantine, women’s shirts slipping off because they were crawling around in the vent system. Stuff that didn’t make sense and was played for Scooby Doo style laughs.
It’s all part of why it’s bad.
I feel it necessary to mention that gem of storytelling called “Huh huh huh ur a dude and ur preggers huh huh huh”.
did you somehow forget 7 of 9?
Whose whole character arc is about the female trauma of losing control of ones body and having it occasionally violated?..
…with a large dose of how to connect with your mother figures, even when one is being a bit of a Borg queen?
No, I didn’t forget, and it’s great that Voyager hit some gender specific trauma stuff consistently with 7 of 9.
That may be how it turned out in the end, but that story arc is absolutely not why 7 of 9 was added as a character on the show.
you and @baines@lemmy.cafe are correct, though i consider that part of the triumph of 7. the writing and acting elevated that character way beyond the box they tried to put her in.
i will agree that later she had depth
Even with the backroom politics of 90s TV, they still cooked with the ingredients they were given.
Where as Enterprise thinks of its self as (according to the article) “a man’s man’s Star Trek”… and seems scared of the Me Too movement.
So yeah Voyager played the hand they were dealt, and surpassed Enterprise by far.
Some impressive gymnastics going on with the guy you’re replying to…
What I remember people saying about Enterprise at the time was along the lines of “hadn’t they learned their lesson with Voyager?” 7 of 9’s outfit was an embarrassing thing non-trekkies would point to when characterizing Trek fans as “virgin nerds”.
she didn’t need to look like that to carry that message
please don’t pretend the point was sexy first
How many nip slips did 7 of 9 have?
Jeri Ryan is just a good looking actress and spandex are very scifi.
Not that I think going straight to the source will sway you, but…
Brannon Braga:
Jeri Ryan:
So no, “spandex are very scifi” doesn’t hold a lot of water in this case.
Whoa TV producers have sex-brained politics and just want mass appeal, you don’t say?
Doesn’t change the fact Voyager still did better on this issue, and the article says a lot about how a boys club mentality was embedded into Enterprise.
you can always go lower, there’s practically no bottom, doesn’t change the fact that crazy over the top outfit was purely to sell sexy
Does the question: “Did you somehow forget 7 of 9?” read “let’s limit the discussion to judging the women based on costumes alone” or say “Lets judge the character’s strengths based on why TV producers had them introduced”?
No, the discussion - and even the article is about how Enterprise is claiming to be “a man’s man’s version of Star Trek” a “boy’s club” and feel lucky they got in before Me Too happened.
So reiterating “Yeah, but TV producers really wanted Jeri Ryan to look sexy” doesn’t change those facts, or the topic.
Voyager took what producers gave them, and still wrote a deeper look into gender trauma with it.
what? no
I’m judging the tv producers
both had sexist elements put into the show
voyager managed to work around it
and the enterprise article is bait
Enterprise is the only one that gets skipped every rewatch time. I’ll just play the theme song once and move on.
It’s a shame it was cancelled when it was. It really seemed like they had pulled their heads out of their asses by season 4.
You mean the season with no cohesive arc and relies on recycling plots from other shows (mirror universe, aliens taking over bodies to observe reaction to disease, men falling for Orion woman, “Section 31”, etc, etc). This season was so desperate to show “we do that too” it was embarrassing. Even the way they ended the show was worse than just killing it.
TNG didn’t have cohesive arcs and had its fair share of recycled plots. Are you going to argue it was also bad? Also, it’s a prequel. The entire point of the show is to revisit things but do it through the lens of an earlier and more inexperienced version of humanity.
Season 4 was when the writing improved and started feeling more Star Treky. Yes, there were terrible episodes, especially the series finale, but the average was substantially better. They finally started introducing the early Federation species and working to show how the Federation would form. The Andorian episodes in particular were great. There could have been a lot of great storylines about the Federation learning to work together or how relations with the Klingons and Romulans went south.
it’s been a long road…
maybe its due to kurtzman nutrek, he went full force with the metoomovement.