KoboldCoterie@pawb.social
on 05 Sep 01:00
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The enshitification is progressing nicely!
pup_atlas@pawb.social
on 05 Sep 02:02
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I don’t see this as enshittification. It’s a real thing that’s happening, but raw storage is expensive. They pay for it directly. Unlike artificially limiting features that are “free” to them, this genuinely isn’t, it’s not even really super discounted for them on the backend. They’re likely just paying for a series of S3 buckets.
scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech
on 05 Sep 02:24
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Except not, this is what social media is supposed to do, allow people to upload things to share. They’ve done perfectly well for all these years on it, it’s not some new crazy problem. It’s existing functionality they are removing, that’s on them.
tyler@programming.dev
on 05 Sep 16:20
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Discord isn’t social media. What is with everyone just referring to every tech company product as “social media”!?
I use discord to keep up with what my friends are doing, look at pictures that they post, etc. We used to use Facebook for the same thing back when it was The Facebook and required a university email address and didn’t have ads.
How is that not social media?
Discord isn’t a social media. With platforms like facebook, you’re still paying for all your storage, just not with money. There’s ads all over the platform, and all your content is data mined to be sold to advertisers. Discord doesn’t data mine (to my knowledge) OR run ads. Would you prefer a higher limit at the cost of having ads all over the interface? The AWS bill has to get paid somehow, nothing is free.
I’m a sys admin/devops engineer, and yes, storage is far more expensive then people realize.
This is the very definition of enshittification.
EDIT: To those downvoting:
Do you actually know what the definition of enshittification is? Apparently not.
Enshittification (alternately, crapification and platform decay) is a pattern in which online products and services decline in quality. Initially, vendors create high-quality offerings to attract users, then they degrade those offerings to better serve business customers, and finally degrade their services to users and business customers to maximize profits for shareholders.
It doesn’t matter that the cost of storage is a real thing. They gave things of value away for free to grow their user base and to try and capture network effects. Now that they think they have that they are taking away ( or decreasing ) the free stuff of value they gave away.
The fact that storage has value is literally an important part of enshitification.
It wouldn’t be enshitification if they gave away free stuff that wasn’t valuable.
It’s not enshittification because it literally doesn’t follow the second part of your own definition. Needing to change your offerings because your internal prices increase is normal business. Enshittification literally is from companies offering stuff to entice users and then they realize they have nothing else to offer to businesses, so they remove features in order to sell them to businesses or to increase ads.
This was my core point. I don’t consider a business raising prices or gating features as a direct result of those features increasing their cost as “enshittification”. Stickers being paid, custom emojis, etc, that doesn’t cost Discord anything to provide, making that paid is enshittification; But if the feature itself costs the business actual money to provide, does everyone just expect them to eat that cost forever, in a lot of cases for absolutely no revenue from the users?
Calling out businesses for not giving stuff that costs them money away for free just, doesn’t fundamentally make sense to me. Why is it just expected of Discord that they pay to store all your large files? A lot of “freemium” services like GMail recoup some of that money by mining your email for data that it can sell to advertisers, or eating the cost in an attempt to lock you into an ecosystem where you’ll spend money. Storing files on Discord is neither of those things.
Don’t get me wrong, a lot of services are enshittifying, and making their services worse so you spend more money with them— but adjusting your quotas and pricing to reflect your real world cost of business is not that. To frame it as though you are entitled to free compute and resources from companies that don’t owe you anything comes off as just that, entitled. The cloud isn’t free. If you want to use a service, you should pay for it if you can.
Just like YouTube. They need the ad revenue to keep all those videos saved to their servers. It’s only natural you watch a 30 second ad every 10 seconds. It isn’t enshittification because it’s a real thing that’s happening, and raw storage is expensive. They pay for it directly.
Sure it’s getting cheaper, but is it getting cheaper faster than their need for it?
I’ve always expected their business model was unsustainable probably only able to manage through venture capital and growth.
There’s hardly even any competition, their free product is substantial. Even fully funding a server is barely enough to cover a bare metal node.
This is just the introduction to cost savings. As they wade into market saturation, and still need to provide growth in numbers they’ll need to pinch the free users into paying and pinch the paying users into paying enough to fully fund the service. Of course it won’t stop there…
Edit: FFS dictation can’t ‘their’ it’s way out of a wet paper bag.
cmnybo@discuss.tchncs.de
on 05 Sep 01:28
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I’m surprised they didn’t put a time limit on the storage since they are not a file hosting platform.
terminhell@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 05 Sep 02:00
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Honestly, I’ve always been surprised they allow any direct file transfers, instead of having to use external links.
Clicking an external link exposes your IP address to the server. All someone has to do is send a link that looks like something you want but actually just logs your ip address and you’re doxxed.
I know there’s been several news items regarding file changes to links within discord, like
Link Expiration,
file size increase for free users, and all i found from a quick search was this reddit post talking about how their file wasnt deleted, but the link directs to discord saying “This content is no longer available.”
I don’t know how long it is, but to wether or not it was removed by discord, or file expired, im not sure
To be clear, XMPP is the name of the protocol, not the app. If an XMPP app with a Discord-like UI is what you’re after, then Converse.js is probably your best bet. Here’s what it looks like.
Movim is another web UX option (comes with posts + feeds that can easily be crawled as well so you don’t have everything stuck in the black hole of chat).
I am using png. Level 0 compression tho and in 4k (3840*2160), sometimes even 4k + 2*1440p (2560*1440), but it’s already too large with just my main 4k monitor.
why though? The graphics represented in the screen are already squashed and scaled, so you wouldn’t be preserving their quality in any case. If you’re worried about text, JPEG should still be able to handle it under high quality settings
Dude. Did you even read what I wrote? PNG is bad for photos. Your example is a photo.
Go ahead and try the same with a screenshot with text and menus showing.
Thanks for this. Still, I would be curious to see this for a 4K level image. Also I wonder if your screenshot tool did a bitmap copy of the screen or intrinsically converted it to PNG first before pasting it into your paint editor.
I use 4k because I like seeing a lot of stuff at the same time in good quality.
I make screenshots of my whole screen to share all the stuff in the highest detail.
Using jpeg would result in literally unreadable pictures.
VOwOxel@discuss.tchncs.de
on 05 Sep 11:44
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Depends on the Quality setting and version of jpeg. Even the original jpeg, on high quality, will result in little to no data loss. IIRC, Jpeg can even do lossless, with the only caveat being that it doesn’t save alpha channels (but screenshots don’t need to have transparency, anyway). Newer versions of jpeg, such as jpeg-2000 (and the much less broadly supported jpeg-XL) have much better compression and provide higher image quality at lower file size.
“jpegification” or “Deep-frying” only really occurs with the original jpeg at low quality settings.
Because it was never a problem. It’s a little bit faster for encoding and decoding, and no service ever had problems with the file size. Especially not my selfhosted stuff. Every service, except discord. As I now have resorted to using Vencord or just uploading most media to Nextcloud, I don’t have that many issues with it anymore, anyway.
nekusoul@lemmy.nekusoul.de
on 05 Sep 14:19
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It’s a little bit faster for encoding and decoding
On the other hand, the time spent uploading/downloading much smaller files probably more than makes up for that, although even that difference might get pretty small with modern internet connections.
But you literally started this thread because it’s a problem. And then you spent more time defending your bad choice on a Lemmy discussion than you will ever save in your entire life decompressing PNGs.
JackbyDev@programming.dev
on 05 Sep 12:57
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Yes. But in theory it’s still a performance hit, and as I have enough local storage (and typically use services with high limits), and I’m too lazy to change grims config just for discord, I never changed it and used Vencord instead.
JackbyDev@programming.dev
on 05 Sep 17:47
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Because even though it saves over 29 MB, it also takes more than 20 times as long. And that’s just on my laptop, 1920x1080 + 2*1680x1050. On my PC it’s even worse. <img alt="" src="https://feddit.org/pictrs/image/c65c83b8-4d4e-4d5a-bbee-4790b4f8e636.png">
I have thousands of GB of high speed storage, Gigabit internet, but only a Ryzen 5 2600 and a i5-1145G7.
JackbyDev@programming.dev
on 05 Sep 21:17
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What about compression level 1 instead of 9?
ReversalHatchery@beehaw.org
on 05 Sep 08:01
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I’m surprised they aren’t offsetting the cost by selling all our data to language learning models like everyone else is
aren’t they doing it? but at least by looking at how much they like locking out people until they give out their phone number, I suspect they are not collecting it without having further use for it
Jessica@discuss.tchncs.de
on 05 Sep 14:59
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Just to be clear, I 100% think they are selling our data. What I meant was I’m surprised they’re concerned about the size of the uploads when they could just be selling the uploaded data.
They increased to 25 to encourage media uploads to train their own models with. They now have collected enough metrics to realize, most valuable content is below 10MB. Now they are optimizing. They won’t lose anything valuable to them and the users who are impacted might even buy Nitro now. Win-win for them
Your content is yours, but you give us a license to it when you use Discord. Your content may be protected by certain intellectual property rights. We don’t own those. But by using our services, you grant us a license—which is a form of permission—to do the following with your content, in accordance with applicable legal requirements, in connection with operating, developing, and improving our services:
Use, copy, store, distribute, and communicate your content in manners consistent with your use of the services. (For example, so we can store and display your content.)
Publish, publicly perform, or publicly display your content if you’ve chosen to make it visible to others. (For example, so we can display your messages if you post them in certain servers or recommend that content to others.)
Monitor, modify, translate, and reformat your content. (For example, so we can resize an image you post to fit on a mobile device.)
Sublicense your content, to allow our services to work as intended. (For example, so we can store your content with our cloud service providers.)
“by selling all our data to language learning models like everyone else is”
I imagine China is using it for free since Tencent owns a 38% stake.
PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
on 05 Sep 10:23
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Please discord die already
MerchantsOfMisery@lemmy.ml
on 05 Sep 14:19
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Until a viable alternative is presented, I doubt Discord will die anytime soon. Part of the problem is people have a hard time accepting that even if you make the best meal in town, you’ve gotta get people to step inside before they’ll try it. To an extent, this does involve winning a popularity contest of sorts if you want Discord to die.
I think often times folks are torn between enjoying a space/app as is, and making compromises to attract a larger group. IMO Linux has the same issue and that’s part of why die hard fanboys get so aggressively defensive when this is brought up.
It’s the software equivalent of being the bitter "nice guy" that simultaneously wants to attract a girlfriend (users) but is kind of an asshole to women. You might think you don’t stink but please wear deodorant.
PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
on 05 Sep 15:35
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Yeah i also don’t think it’s dying hence the plea. But thing is, i don’t want alternative. I want this shit to die so i never want to see “join our discord” spammed absolutely everywhere when i want to get some info on anything.
There are viable alteratives, but they aren’t making money and can’t advertise. Signal is a prime example, its an amazing platform with feature parity + more to Discord. Regardless of how well a platform is polished, you need users. People will use the shittiest platform ever if it has users (Twitter and Reddit come to mind).
MerchantsOfMisery@lemmy.ml
on 06 Sep 13:26
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Signal isn’t an alternative to Discord. I use both and they’re used very differently. Group movie watching for example is pretty easy on Discord.
Digg had users and people jumped ship to Reddit because it was better.
You can screen share on signal so that argument makes absolutely no sense. and people down voting me without explaining why are probably too stubborn to switch away from discord.
MerchantsOfMisery@lemmy.ml
on 06 Sep 19:05
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That’s a feature that was implemented what, 1 or 2 years ago when Signal’s been around for a decade?
You can’t possibly expect people to just jump from one social app to another that has such a relatively small user base and little familiarity. Entire Discord servers would have to jump ship and it would just be a nightmare for most people.
What Discord prioritizes, Signal treats as an afterthought. Things like group chat, video chat, GIF usage, etc, Signal has never really prioritized.
Discord’s mobile and PC apps both allow users to select GIFs within the application, whereas only Signal’s mobile app allows users to select GIFs within the application and Signal’s desktop app doesn’t allow for in-app GIF selection. If you’re reading this thinking "who tf cares about stupid stuff like that?", you’re completely missing the point because regular ass users care about stuff like that and they totally will say “fuck that” to an alternative if it doesn’t have features like this. Why doesn’t Signal incorporate in-app GIF selection for its desktop app? I’m sure it will be eventually implemented but dragging their heels like this for popular features and then having the nerve to ask "why aren’t people flocking to us instead of Discord/WhatsApp" is such an out of touch question to ask.
When open source developers ask for feedback from regular users and their response to said feedback is"ACKSHUALLY it’s your fault, not the application’s fault", as it often is, it’s no surprise that their software never gains traction. It’s like a guy who wears cargo pants to a formal affair and then gets into an argument over attire because in his mind, cargo pants = more pockets = superior, completely oblivious to every other factor.
Another thing-- Signal requires your phone number, Discord doesn’t. I know right away folks are going to rage about how Discord is the real privacy nightmare, not Signal. I don’t disagree, but the average user is just going to be more wary about being forced to give up their phone number in order to use Signal, even if the software now allows them to hide it.
Phone number point is stupid to bring up because most public discord servers turn on the setting that prevents you from speaking until you’ve verified a phone number, and I’d trust signal with my number over discord any day of the week. I never said general users should jump ship, I said that the reason they DONT is because other platform dont have the advertising budget, nor the user base to make users jump ship. People act like they give a shit about features but as soon as they can only talk to their friends because they all left for one platform, even if its “worse” because of the feature set, they WILL follow or be left out. Its why I originally joined Discord, I didn’t want to leave Skype but thats where everyone was going. I am now taking the other side where I refuse to use discord. I use Signal and Matrix. if people want to talk to me, they talk to me on there or not at all, and ykno what. Ive gotten 20+ people to switch.
MerchantsOfMisery@lemmy.ml
on 06 Sep 19:29
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Discord doesn’t require a phone number to use it and there’s tons of servers that don’t require phone number verification. The vast majority of servers I’m in have no phone number requirement. Signal straight will not work without your phone number, in any capacity. I’m sure you’d trust Signal over Discord with your phone number any day of the week but as I said, that’s an irrelevant point because we’re talking about why people are more attracted to Discord over Signal. Slacks vs ugly cargo pants.
I said that the reason they DONT is because other platform dont have the advertising budget, nor the user base to make users jump ship.
Have you ever seen an ad for Discord? I haven’t see one before and I only know about it through word of mouth. There’s nothing stopping people from creating Signal groups for various hobbies and including a Signal link in their social media page.
Refusing to use Discord might be noble from a privacy/security point of view but from a broader perspective, you’re significantly limiting your social interactions and not because of the people but the app the people are using to communicate with. It’s like not using a phone at all because pretty much any phone is a privacy/security issue.
I use CalyxOS and keep airplane mode on when I’m not expecting any calls over the celluar network 🤷♂️
I suppose youre right that Ive never seen an ad for Discord, I also just haven’t seen ads in well over 5 years. I did assume they advertised so if Im wrong thats on me. I refuse to be a product and feel others should as well. If people want to sell themselves in exchange for a money-less service I suppose thats their own decision.
NostraDavid@programming.dev
on 06 Sep 20:40
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people jumped ship to Reddit because it was better.
People jumped ship because Digg turned into complete and utter garbage, and Reddit wasn’t completely awful. It was a weird site though, 100%.
Digg would’ve been fine had they not forced Digg v4 on users.
NostraDavid@programming.dev
on 06 Sep 13:15
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What’s a good voice-chat alternative then?
PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
on 06 Sep 15:51
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Before the discord plague i used Team Speak, it was sufficient.
TS has always, and I do mean always, been garbage.
PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
on 06 Sep 18:37
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No. I mean if you spend your entire life jumping between 30 rooms full of people then perhaps, but for just normal voice communication for meeting, gaming or RPG it was entirely sufficient.
I already use a different app for voice chat, and never used Discord’s voice chat feature.
Discord is a modern alternative to IRC, Slack, or a more fully featured version of Matrix. I never considered it for the voice chat feature.
People always bring up voice chat alternatives, which don’t replace Discord at all, because voice chat is a tiny unimportant feature of Discord that I wouldn’t notice if they removed.
The point was not the amount of money they are making, the point is that regardless you are being sold for profit. Any platform that is ad-driven should be avoided if you want any form of privacy.
They definitely sell user data. There is no doubt in my mind about it. I think the idea that Signal can’t be used in the same way is down to the marketing, especially sense Discord is now trying to transition away from gaming gamedeveloper.com/…/discord-is-pivoting-away-from…
Signal literally has the same features + more than discord. You dont have to reveal your phone number to strangers anymore. Usernames are there. 1k+ member group chats EXIST. (I’m in one for fight for the future), screen sharing exists in calls. Theres no reason to need discord unless thats just where everyone else is.
Discord is one of the worst company in term of privacy, they sell all of your datas, messages… First to make profit and then send it to the Chinese government. Thx to offer to me 10MB 😁
Power to do what, exactly? It’s not like China is going to get non-citizens extradited from their home country to punish them for saying bad things about the CPC. Believing in vague generalities doesn’t help anyone, you’ve got to be specific.
You should know that in this world most of the governments want to extand their “power” (in fact it’s the good world), by knowing all the stuffs that are happening in the world they gain some superior knowledge. Why do states are willing to do mass surveillance, to use security cameras, etc… It’s not to have more “citizens” but to gain more power
Yes, but as a specific exercise, the US government wants to spy on US citizens because if gives them the power to arrest you. You could be committing crimes right now and not realize it, but if you ever become a person of interest they will use them against you.
Of what use is specific data from specific nationals to a foreign government? They don’t have anywhere near the same level of power over your life as your home government does, unless you’re a defense contractor or a government official or something, all of that information is just fluff to them.
And not for nothing, but the original conversation was about Discord, which is partially owned by Tencent but partial ownership by a private Chinese firm does not give the Chinese government any kind of special control over the platform.
No no no, mass surveillance or global surveillance means a surveillance at the world scale meaning that all the people from everywhere would be watched. They just want to gain datas about everyone, to one day maybe use it. Cover leaks, cover several things… For sure today you will not be under the control of a foreign gov but tomorrow if they need to they could track you to achieve their goals.
With the case of Discord, you probably should know that in China the big companies are really related to the Chinese gov. Take the case of Tencent and search online for share owned by the gov. That’s all. Datas trough Discord are not safe at all.
I agree, but the argument here is “why won’t they let you upload more data if they make money off of it”. My point is that it doesn’t apply here, because uploaded files is not the data that can make them money.
interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
on 06 Sep 20:08
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Lemmy servers are radical open, everything short of your IP address is accessible over the activitypub protocol.
If you know of any malware hosted by them you should report it too them.
MerchantsOfMisery@lemmy.ml
on 05 Sep 14:22
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If Discord was open source, I actually would not mind paying a fee for it. Fixed or reccurring, ideally the former. But that’s never happening. And forget buying that Nitro thing.
A smaller size limit on what amounts to free file hosting isn’t exactly enshittification. Servers and hard drives aren’t free.
Lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.ml
on 06 Sep 17:36
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The process of enshitification is what I was referring to. Discord got super popular by providing users with lots of value for zero cost.
Now, in order to increase profits, they are reducing the scope of features they offer, and increasing the cost of the features that remain.
This will continue to slowly get worse, as users are more locked into Discord’s ecosystem and userbase, they will be further pressured to upgrade and pay more money for less stuff.
UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml
on 06 Sep 22:28
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Servers and hard drives aren’t free.
Uhoh, the widdle baby poopy pants corporation can’t handle doing their job. Maybe they can just get the fuck out of the way and let the real adults host our own shit?
I am fortunate enough to know how to set up VMs and use Linux, so I run my own IRC server with a web interface (TheLounge). I can set the upload limit to what I want and settled for 100MB. This way my friends and I are not at the mercy of some proprietary software.
I do pay for a dedicated server that I also use to host my games’ servers and also a mumble server, but it’s so worth it, just to have control over our stuff.
They decreased it?? People always complain about max file sizes being too small.
Also, how is telegram able to offer 2 GB per file and 4 GB on premium? In comparison, that seems astronomical!
nossaquesapao@lemmy.eco.br
on 06 Sep 16:33
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I believe telegram manages that with severe upload and download speed limits, but Telegram has always been a bit shady, hasn’t it? Who knows how they financially support all that.
jenny_ball@lemmy.world
on 06 Sep 19:29
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Telegrams billionaire founder claims that he is bankrolling the thing with his personal wealth. I’m pretty sure he also claimed at one point that the average user cost them $6 per year, or something along those lines.
MerchantsOfMisery@lemmy.ml
on 06 Sep 19:13
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My guess is Telegram’s being bankrolled by entities that are willing to eat the cost of this kind of data usage.
I gotta admit, I have no problem with introducing a completely new feature and locking it to paying members. But taking away an already existing feature from non-members, or limiting it in some way, is simply outrageous. They could’ve kept the upload limit at 25MB, and increased it for Nitro users to something like an entire gigabyte. This would’ve encouraged people to get Nitro. But lowering the upload limit for free users would just encourage them to leave and find an alternative (and the problem is that there aren’t any viable ones because they aren’t used as much).
MerchantsOfMisery@lemmy.ml
on 06 Sep 19:12
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Exactly. And they didn’t even give the 25 MB limit to every user. Some users were always stuck at 8 MB, and others 25 MB. I’m the latter and I was blown away at the decision to cut the file size limit down to 1/3rd of what I was used to.
^ This website will compress videos down to 8 MB but the video quality ends up being awful, plus I’m not so sure how I feel about the privacy/security issues of uploading personal videos to some rando website so they can be compressed.
I REALLY hate this “rolling out” of new features. Seriously, I hate it. I remember Instagram doing it when pressing the screen during Reels playback, on some accounts it pauses, on others it simply mutes the video.
Good riddance, Instagram.
werefreeatlast@lemmy.world
on 06 Sep 19:59
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So email came before Google. Email was good. You went to your computer and downloaded your inbox. You could either delete the email from the server and have it in your computer only or keep it in both places. With android and Google, the strategy was to give you an address that you couldn’t take with you anywhere, and to let you see and accumulate emails from any device such that your data could be used for AI and you couldn’t easily retain it and still use it globally. You can come up with your own email server, just not a gmail.com address. They own you until you just start elsewhere.
Seriously discord i was soo happy about the 25mb upload limit but there are better alternatives (lin.la pomf se,catbox)
interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
on 06 Sep 20:05
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Easy fix, don’t store any of it on the cloud. The client’s PC has plenty more than 25MB
UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml
on 06 Sep 22:22
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Is there a discord replacement that isn’t matrix that does this?
interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml
on 07 Sep 19:04
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I have no idea if these fit the bill
Rocket chat
Mattermost
Revolt
lemmywinksthegerbilking@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 06 Sep 21:08
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to be fair though, the limit was 8MB originally, then they raised it to 25MB
EmperorHenry@discuss.tchncs.de
on 06 Sep 22:36
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I’ve never sent a picture through discord.
Also, if storing all that data is hard…trim all the chat logs after awhile…oh wait…then you wouldn’t be able to keep records of everything everyone’s ever done on there.
threaded - newest
The enshitification is progressing nicely!
I don’t see this as enshittification. It’s a real thing that’s happening, but raw storage is expensive. They pay for it directly. Unlike artificially limiting features that are “free” to them, this genuinely isn’t, it’s not even really super discounted for them on the backend. They’re likely just paying for a series of S3 buckets.
Except not, this is what social media is supposed to do, allow people to upload things to share. They’ve done perfectly well for all these years on it, it’s not some new crazy problem. It’s existing functionality they are removing, that’s on them.
Discord isn’t social media. What is with everyone just referring to every tech company product as “social media”!?
I use discord to keep up with what my friends are doing, look at pictures that they post, etc. We used to use Facebook for the same thing back when it was The Facebook and required a university email address and didn’t have ads. How is that not social media?
Discord isn’t a social media. With platforms like facebook, you’re still paying for all your storage, just not with money. There’s ads all over the platform, and all your content is data mined to be sold to advertisers. Discord doesn’t data mine (to my knowledge) OR run ads. Would you prefer a higher limit at the cost of having ads all over the interface? The AWS bill has to get paid somehow, nothing is free.
I’m a sys admin/devops engineer, and yes, storage is far more expensive then people realize.
This is the very definition of enshittification.
EDIT: To those downvoting:
Do you actually know what the definition of enshittification is? Apparently not.
It doesn’t matter that the cost of storage is a real thing. They gave things of value away for free to grow their user base and to try and capture network effects. Now that they think they have that they are taking away ( or decreasing ) the free stuff of value they gave away.
The fact that storage has value is literally an important part of enshitification.
It wouldn’t be enshitification if they gave away free stuff that wasn’t valuable.
It’s not enshittification because it literally doesn’t follow the second part of your own definition. Needing to change your offerings because your internal prices increase is normal business. Enshittification literally is from companies offering stuff to entice users and then they realize they have nothing else to offer to businesses, so they remove features in order to sell them to businesses or to increase ads.
This was my core point. I don’t consider a business raising prices or gating features as a direct result of those features increasing their cost as “enshittification”. Stickers being paid, custom emojis, etc, that doesn’t cost Discord anything to provide, making that paid is enshittification; But if the feature itself costs the business actual money to provide, does everyone just expect them to eat that cost forever, in a lot of cases for absolutely no revenue from the users?
Calling out businesses for not giving stuff that costs them money away for free just, doesn’t fundamentally make sense to me. Why is it just expected of Discord that they pay to store all your large files? A lot of “freemium” services like GMail recoup some of that money by mining your email for data that it can sell to advertisers, or eating the cost in an attempt to lock you into an ecosystem where you’ll spend money. Storing files on Discord is neither of those things.
Don’t get me wrong, a lot of services are enshittifying, and making their services worse so you spend more money with them— but adjusting your quotas and pricing to reflect your real world cost of business is not that. To frame it as though you are entitled to free compute and resources from companies that don’t owe you anything comes off as just that, entitled. The cloud isn’t free. If you want to use a service, you should pay for it if you can.
Just like YouTube. They need the ad revenue to keep all those videos saved to their servers. It’s only natural you watch a 30 second ad every 10 seconds. It isn’t enshittification because it’s a real thing that’s happening, and raw storage is expensive. They pay for it directly.
I suspect the sarcasm detector of the downvoters might be faulty
Maybe but I’m not adding a /s for them
Based on all of the changes discord has made over the past few years, its absolutely enshittification
It’s not, everyone just loves to use the funny swearing buzzword
It’s a real issue. It’s amazing they allow it like it is now.
Storage (and transfer and processing) has only ever gotten cheaper, but okay.
Yes but are your storage Managers doing anything? Going on long lunches and racking up bar tabs? Expensing escorts?
Sure it’s getting cheaper, but is it getting cheaper faster than their need for it?
I’ve always expected their business model was unsustainable probably only able to manage through venture capital and growth.
There’s hardly even any competition, their free product is substantial. Even fully funding a server is barely enough to cover a bare metal node.
This is just the introduction to cost savings. As they wade into market saturation, and still need to provide growth in numbers they’ll need to pinch the free users into paying and pinch the paying users into paying enough to fully fund the service. Of course it won’t stop there…
Edit: FFS dictation can’t ‘their’ it’s way out of a wet paper bag.
I’m surprised they didn’t put a time limit on the storage since they are not a file hosting platform.
Honestly, I’ve always been surprised they allow any direct file transfers, instead of having to use external links.
I find it weird that they upload content to their own servers even when you provide them with an external link.
They want the data
Clicking an external link exposes your IP address to the server. All someone has to do is send a link that looks like something you want but actually just logs your ip address and you’re doxxed.
Lol, I already saw that happening in a server
I thought they did that at the start of the year
I know there’s been several news items regarding file changes to links within discord, like Link Expiration, file size increase for free users, and all i found from a quick search was this reddit post talking about how their file wasnt deleted, but the link directs to discord saying “This content is no longer available.”
I don’t know how long it is, but to wether or not it was removed by discord, or file expired, im not sure
so many people left reddit and fled to discord. So sad. Discord was ALWAYS going to enshittify itself to death, but okay people.
As a forum-like community like Reddit it was always shit to begin with.
Still light years ahead of FB groups tho
That’s not the biggest accomplishment.
Man, you should have seen forums at hobby sites, etc in the times before Reddit/Digg…
At least those forums store information in threads. Discord is just an endless stream of blabber.
Agreed. Or worse: for documentation!
Was looking into some FOSS tools, the ones that say discord I automatically skip, imo it’s not future proof.
Revolt, people
.
Nah, xmpp is better.
How is it comparable to the layout?
To be clear, XMPP is the name of the protocol, not the app. If an XMPP app with a Discord-like UI is what you’re after, then Converse.js is probably your best bet. Here’s what it looks like.
Movim is another web UX option (comes with posts + feeds that can easily be crawled as well so you don’t have everything stuck in the black hole of chat).
That doesn’t have the server + Channel layout
Gajim can, but you have to create it yourself.
The clients are a bit under developed by progressing quickly, and are all open source.
Revolt I love, but there’s no federation or anything, and I won’t be able to get anyone to switch unless they could join many servers from mine
Yeah, a federated alternative would be neat. Revolt has a lot of issues but kudos for the customizable UI.
Dammit now I have to reduce the block size of my discord-based cold storage filesystem.
Well that didn’t last very long. It was 8 MB for like six years and then it just went to 25 MB maybe a year ago and now we’re back down to 10 MB.
I’m surprised they aren’t offsetting the cost by selling all our data to language learning models like everyone else is
And standard screenshots of my desktop are ~30mb, I was lucky to upload it lol
What format are you saving them in? BMP? Try png.
I am using png. Level 0 compression tho and in 4k (3840*2160), sometimes even 4k + 2*1440p (2560*1440), but it’s already too large with just my main 4k monitor.
PNG started out as ZIP(BMP) and hasn’t gotten that much better. Use JPEG. The pixels you lose are not worth crying about
Or they could just compression for their PNGs. PNG is a lossless format so they’ll only lose a fraction of a second during creation.
JPEG for graphics like screenshots is not very efficient. For stuff like that, png is simply superior. (But not with compression 0)
PNG is not good for photos though.
why though? The graphics represented in the screen are already squashed and scaled, so you wouldn’t be preserving their quality in any case. If you’re worried about text, JPEG should still be able to handle it under high quality settings
We can ask the same the other way around: why do you want to use jpg if it results in a bigger size and worse quality than png?
But that’s patently untrue: take this 10 MB example TIFF file as an example.
PNG Compression, max compress (=quality 9):
JPG Encoding, 99% quality (=quality 99):
Final file size comparison:
PNG is significantly larger, and difference in quality between them is negligible
Dude. Did you even read what I wrote? PNG is bad for photos. Your example is a photo. Go ahead and try the same with a screenshot with text and menus showing.
png - jpg
jpg with 80% compression, via krita.
As B0rax said, for screenshots, png is better - it can represent line graphics and text more efficiently.
Thanks for this. Still, I would be curious to see this for a 4K level image. Also I wonder if your screenshot tool did a bitmap copy of the screen or intrinsically converted it to PNG first before pasting it into your paint editor.
I use 4k because I like seeing a lot of stuff at the same time in good quality.
I make screenshots of my whole screen to share all the stuff in the highest detail.
Using jpeg would result in literally unreadable pictures.
Depends on the Quality setting and version of jpeg. Even the original jpeg, on high quality, will result in little to no data loss. IIRC, Jpeg can even do lossless, with the only caveat being that it doesn’t save alpha channels (but screenshots don’t need to have transparency, anyway). Newer versions of jpeg, such as jpeg-2000 (and the much less broadly supported jpeg-XL) have much better compression and provide higher image quality at lower file size.
“jpegification” or “Deep-frying” only really occurs with the original jpeg at low quality settings.
Why 0 compression?
Because it was never a problem. It’s a little bit faster for encoding and decoding, and no service ever had problems with the file size. Especially not my selfhosted stuff. Every service, except discord. As I now have resorted to using Vencord or just uploading most media to Nextcloud, I don’t have that many issues with it anymore, anyway.
How does Vencord help with the upload limit?
On the other hand, the time spent uploading/downloading much smaller files probably more than makes up for that, although even that difference might get pretty small with modern internet connections.
Especially in times where using WiFi is faster than ethernet, because my network ports are only gigabit.
But you literally started this thread because it’s a problem. And then you spent more time defending your bad choice on a Lemmy discussion than you will ever save in your entire life decompressing PNGs.
You know PNG is lossless compression right?
Yes. But in theory it’s still a performance hit, and as I have enough local storage (and typically use services with high limits), and I’m too lazy to change grims config just for discord, I never changed it and used Vencord instead.
Why do you think it’s a performance hit?
Because even though it saves over 29 MB, it also takes more than 20 times as long. And that’s just on my laptop, 1920x1080 + 2*1680x1050. On my PC it’s even worse. <img alt="" src="https://feddit.org/pictrs/image/c65c83b8-4d4e-4d5a-bbee-4790b4f8e636.png">
I have thousands of GB of high speed storage, Gigabit internet, but only a Ryzen 5 2600 and a i5-1145G7.
What about compression level 1 instead of 9?
aren’t they doing it? but at least by looking at how much they like locking out people until they give out their phone number, I suspect they are not collecting it without having further use for it
Hah. Hahaha. Hahahahahahaahahahahahaha. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Just to be clear, I 100% think they are selling our data. What I meant was I’m surprised they’re concerned about the size of the uploads when they could just be selling the uploaded data.
Good point. Harder to parse would be my guess
For the record, they still claim that they do not sell user information nor data.
Giving it to China for free isn’t selling. Its just called “investor relations”
Any proof, or just tinfoil?
I simply don’t trust any company that provides a “free” service and is owned by Tencent, who has a 35% stake in Discord.
Neither do I, which is why I would love evidence to confirm my suspicions, so I can show it to others.
But I also try not to make claims that are merely suspicious, however likely.
Look up the Discord Summaries BETA.
They already have “AI” monitoring all chats.
It would be “stupid” of them to not abuse that. (Unmorally stupid that is)
Wait, I ~never was notified that it got to 25mb, I thought it was 8
It might have only even been like six months. It was in the little change log pop up during one of the updates at some point
They increased to 25 to encourage media uploads to train their own models with. They now have collected enough metrics to realize, most valuable content is below 10MB. Now they are optimizing. They won’t lose anything valuable to them and the users who are impacted might even buy Nitro now. Win-win for them
It would be legally stupid for them to abuse that.
discord.com/terms#5 is pretty permissive
Your content is yours, but you give us a license to it when you use Discord. Your content may be protected by certain intellectual property rights. We don’t own those. But by using our services, you grant us a license—which is a form of permission—to do the following with your content, in accordance with applicable legal requirements, in connection with operating, developing, and improving our services:
I imagine China is using it for free since Tencent owns a 38% stake.
Please discord die already
Until a viable alternative is presented, I doubt Discord will die anytime soon. Part of the problem is people have a hard time accepting that even if you make the best meal in town, you’ve gotta get people to step inside before they’ll try it. To an extent, this does involve winning a popularity contest of sorts if you want Discord to die.
I think often times folks are torn between enjoying a space/app as is, and making compromises to attract a larger group. IMO Linux has the same issue and that’s part of why die hard fanboys get so aggressively defensive when this is brought up.
It’s the software equivalent of being the bitter "nice guy" that simultaneously wants to attract a girlfriend (users) but is kind of an asshole to women. You might think you don’t stink but please wear deodorant.
Yeah i also don’t think it’s dying hence the plea. But thing is, i don’t want alternative. I want this shit to die so i never want to see “join our discord” spammed absolutely everywhere when i want to get some info on anything.
There are viable alteratives, but they aren’t making money and can’t advertise. Signal is a prime example, its an amazing platform with feature parity + more to Discord. Regardless of how well a platform is polished, you need users. People will use the shittiest platform ever if it has users (Twitter and Reddit come to mind).
Signal isn’t an alternative to Discord. I use both and they’re used very differently. Group movie watching for example is pretty easy on Discord.
Digg had users and people jumped ship to Reddit because it was better.
You can screen share on signal so that argument makes absolutely no sense. and people down voting me without explaining why are probably too stubborn to switch away from discord.
That’s a feature that was implemented what, 1 or 2 years ago when Signal’s been around for a decade?
You can’t possibly expect people to just jump from one social app to another that has such a relatively small user base and little familiarity. Entire Discord servers would have to jump ship and it would just be a nightmare for most people.
What Discord prioritizes, Signal treats as an afterthought. Things like group chat, video chat, GIF usage, etc, Signal has never really prioritized.
Discord’s mobile and PC apps both allow users to select GIFs within the application, whereas only Signal’s mobile app allows users to select GIFs within the application and Signal’s desktop app doesn’t allow for in-app GIF selection. If you’re reading this thinking "who tf cares about stupid stuff like that?", you’re completely missing the point because regular ass users care about stuff like that and they totally will say “fuck that” to an alternative if it doesn’t have features like this. Why doesn’t Signal incorporate in-app GIF selection for its desktop app? I’m sure it will be eventually implemented but dragging their heels like this for popular features and then having the nerve to ask "why aren’t people flocking to us instead of Discord/WhatsApp" is such an out of touch question to ask.
When open source developers ask for feedback from regular users and their response to said feedback is"ACKSHUALLY it’s your fault, not the application’s fault", as it often is, it’s no surprise that their software never gains traction. It’s like a guy who wears cargo pants to a formal affair and then gets into an argument over attire because in his mind, cargo pants = more pockets = superior, completely oblivious to every other factor.
Another thing-- Signal requires your phone number, Discord doesn’t. I know right away folks are going to rage about how Discord is the real privacy nightmare, not Signal. I don’t disagree, but the average user is just going to be more wary about being forced to give up their phone number in order to use Signal, even if the software now allows them to hide it.
Phone number point is stupid to bring up because most public discord servers turn on the setting that prevents you from speaking until you’ve verified a phone number, and I’d trust signal with my number over discord any day of the week. I never said general users should jump ship, I said that the reason they DONT is because other platform dont have the advertising budget, nor the user base to make users jump ship. People act like they give a shit about features but as soon as they can only talk to their friends because they all left for one platform, even if its “worse” because of the feature set, they WILL follow or be left out. Its why I originally joined Discord, I didn’t want to leave Skype but thats where everyone was going. I am now taking the other side where I refuse to use discord. I use Signal and Matrix. if people want to talk to me, they talk to me on there or not at all, and ykno what. Ive gotten 20+ people to switch.
Discord doesn’t require a phone number to use it and there’s tons of servers that don’t require phone number verification. The vast majority of servers I’m in have no phone number requirement. Signal straight will not work without your phone number, in any capacity. I’m sure you’d trust Signal over Discord with your phone number any day of the week but as I said, that’s an irrelevant point because we’re talking about why people are more attracted to Discord over Signal. Slacks vs ugly cargo pants.
Have you ever seen an ad for Discord? I haven’t see one before and I only know about it through word of mouth. There’s nothing stopping people from creating Signal groups for various hobbies and including a Signal link in their social media page.
Refusing to use Discord might be noble from a privacy/security point of view but from a broader perspective, you’re significantly limiting your social interactions and not because of the people but the app the people are using to communicate with. It’s like not using a phone at all because pretty much any phone is a privacy/security issue.
I use CalyxOS and keep airplane mode on when I’m not expecting any calls over the celluar network 🤷♂️ I suppose youre right that Ive never seen an ad for Discord, I also just haven’t seen ads in well over 5 years. I did assume they advertised so if Im wrong thats on me. I refuse to be a product and feel others should as well. If people want to sell themselves in exchange for a money-less service I suppose thats their own decision.
People jumped ship because Digg turned into complete and utter garbage, and Reddit wasn’t completely awful. It was a weird site though, 100%.
Digg would’ve been fine had they not forced Digg v4 on users.
What’s a good voice-chat alternative then?
Before the discord plague i used Team Speak, it was sufficient.
TS has always, and I do mean always, been garbage.
No. I mean if you spend your entire life jumping between 30 rooms full of people then perhaps, but for just normal voice communication for meeting, gaming or RPG it was entirely sufficient.
I already use a different app for voice chat, and never used Discord’s voice chat feature.
Discord is a modern alternative to IRC, Slack, or a more fully featured version of Matrix. I never considered it for the voice chat feature.
People always bring up voice chat alternatives, which don’t replace Discord at all, because voice chat is a tiny unimportant feature of Discord that I wouldn’t notice if they removed.
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Most Lemmy servers don’t relentlessly track and sell everything you do though. Discord makes way more money off your data than it costs them to host.
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Your data is worth about $5-$10 a month, at least for Facebook. A month.
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The point was not the amount of money they are making, the point is that regardless you are being sold for profit. Any platform that is ad-driven should be avoided if you want any form of privacy.
.
arstechnica.com/…/discord-starts-down-the-dangero…
They definitely sell user data. There is no doubt in my mind about it. I think the idea that Signal can’t be used in the same way is down to the marketing, especially sense Discord is now trying to transition away from gaming gamedeveloper.com/…/discord-is-pivoting-away-from… Signal literally has the same features + more than discord. You dont have to reveal your phone number to strangers anymore. Usernames are there. 1k+ member group chats EXIST. (I’m in one for fight for the future), screen sharing exists in calls. Theres no reason to need discord unless thats just where everyone else is.
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Discord is one of the worst company in term of privacy, they sell all of your datas, messages… First to make profit and then send it to the Chinese government. Thx to offer to me 10MB 😁
Why exactly do you believe the Chinese government wants the messages of non-Chinese citizens? Because Discord is blocked in China proper.
They want people datas as much as US wants them to do mass surveillance. Surveillance is power and all govs wants power
Power to do what, exactly? It’s not like China is going to get non-citizens extradited from their home country to punish them for saying bad things about the CPC. Believing in vague generalities doesn’t help anyone, you’ve got to be specific.
You should know that in this world most of the governments want to extand their “power” (in fact it’s the good world), by knowing all the stuffs that are happening in the world they gain some superior knowledge. Why do states are willing to do mass surveillance, to use security cameras, etc… It’s not to have more “citizens” but to gain more power
Yes, but as a specific exercise, the US government wants to spy on US citizens because if gives them the power to arrest you. You could be committing crimes right now and not realize it, but if you ever become a person of interest they will use them against you.
Of what use is specific data from specific nationals to a foreign government? They don’t have anywhere near the same level of power over your life as your home government does, unless you’re a defense contractor or a government official or something, all of that information is just fluff to them.
And not for nothing, but the original conversation was about Discord, which is partially owned by Tencent but partial ownership by a private Chinese firm does not give the Chinese government any kind of special control over the platform.
No no no, mass surveillance or global surveillance means a surveillance at the world scale meaning that all the people from everywhere would be watched. They just want to gain datas about everyone, to one day maybe use it. Cover leaks, cover several things… For sure today you will not be under the control of a foreign gov but tomorrow if they need to they could track you to achieve their goals.
With the case of Discord, you probably should know that in China the big companies are really related to the Chinese gov. Take the case of Tencent and search online for share owned by the gov. That’s all. Datas trough Discord are not safe at all.
Source that they make money off of uploaded files?
Didn’t necessarily mean the files but the service as a whole
I agree, but the argument here is “why won’t they let you upload more data if they make money off of it”. My point is that it doesn’t apply here, because uploaded files is not the data that can make them money.
Lemmy servers are radical open, everything short of your IP address is accessible over the activitypub protocol.
They’re not selling it, it’s free.
Is there finally a source that says Discord is selling your data?
They want to start charging for the malware they host.
If you know of any malware hosted by them you should report it too them.
If Discord was open source, I actually would not mind paying a fee for it. Fixed or reccurring, ideally the former. But that’s never happening. And forget buying that Nitro thing.
revolt might catch up eventually
github.com/revoltchat
I hope you’re right.
Revolt looks close, but it isn’t self hosted so it is worthless. Revolt will eventually become what discord is if it got big enough.
I am tired of changing services, I want off this clown carousel of:
new product - gains popularity - enshitification
Same here, so unless something is fully open source, self hostable and preferably federating, I’m not picking it up.
Discord’s enshitification continues.
A smaller size limit on what amounts to free file hosting isn’t exactly enshittification. Servers and hard drives aren’t free.
The process of enshitification is what I was referring to. Discord got super popular by providing users with lots of value for zero cost.
Now, in order to increase profits, they are reducing the scope of features they offer, and increasing the cost of the features that remain.
This will continue to slowly get worse, as users are more locked into Discord’s ecosystem and userbase, they will be further pressured to upgrade and pay more money for less stuff.
Uhoh, the widdle baby poopy pants corporation can’t handle doing their job. Maybe they can just get the fuck out of the way and let the real adults host our own shit?
I am fortunate enough to know how to set up VMs and use Linux, so I run my own IRC server with a web interface (TheLounge). I can set the upload limit to what I want and settled for 100MB. This way my friends and I are not at the mercy of some proprietary software.
I do pay for a dedicated server that I also use to host my games’ servers and also a mumble server, but it’s so worth it, just to have control over our stuff.
They decreased it?? People always complain about max file sizes being too small.
Also, how is telegram able to offer 2 GB per file and 4 GB on premium? In comparison, that seems astronomical!
I believe telegram manages that with severe upload and download speed limits, but Telegram has always been a bit shady, hasn’t it? Who knows how they financially support all that.
plus a fraction of the users of discord
About 500MBit/s on Telegram Desktop. They currently have 10 million paying subscribers out of ~950 million users.
Telegrams billionaire founder claims that he is bankrolling the thing with his personal wealth. I’m pretty sure he also claimed at one point that the average user cost them $6 per year, or something along those lines.
My guess is Telegram’s being bankrolled by entities that are willing to eat the cost of this kind of data usage.
I gotta admit, I have no problem with introducing a completely new feature and locking it to paying members. But taking away an already existing feature from non-members, or limiting it in some way, is simply outrageous. They could’ve kept the upload limit at 25MB, and increased it for Nitro users to something like an entire gigabyte. This would’ve encouraged people to get Nitro. But lowering the upload limit for free users would just encourage them to leave and find an alternative (and the problem is that there aren’t any viable ones because they aren’t used as much).
the free upload limit was only recently bumped to 25mb, it used to be 8mb
Heard that in a YouTube video.
This one in particular.
Exactly. And they didn’t even give the 25 MB limit to every user. Some users were always stuck at 8 MB, and others 25 MB. I’m the latter and I was blown away at the decision to cut the file size limit down to 1/3rd of what I was used to.
8mb.video
^ This website will compress videos down to 8 MB but the video quality ends up being awful, plus I’m not so sure how I feel about the privacy/security issues of uploading personal videos to some rando website so they can be compressed.
I REALLY hate this “rolling out” of new features. Seriously, I hate it. I remember Instagram doing it when pressing the screen during Reels playback, on some accounts it pauses, on others it simply mutes the video.
Good riddance, Instagram.
So email came before Google. Email was good. You went to your computer and downloaded your inbox. You could either delete the email from the server and have it in your computer only or keep it in both places. With android and Google, the strategy was to give you an address that you couldn’t take with you anywhere, and to let you see and accumulate emails from any device such that your data could be used for AI and you couldn’t easily retain it and still use it globally. You can come up with your own email server, just not a gmail.com address. They own you until you just start elsewhere.
I mean, every giga company does this, and profits from it.
Can you tell I hate corporatism?
Maybe they should just delete their data every month. Holding 1 20mb file or 2 10mb files aren’t much different
Seriously discord i was soo happy about the 25mb upload limit but there are better alternatives (lin.la pomf se,catbox)
Easy fix, don’t store any of it on the cloud. The client’s PC has plenty more than 25MB
Is there a discord replacement that isn’t matrix that does this?
I have no idea if these fit the bill Rocket chat Mattermost Revolt
to be fair though, the limit was 8MB originally, then they raised it to 25MB
I’ve never sent a picture through discord.
Also, if storing all that data is hard…trim all the chat logs after awhile…oh wait…then you wouldn’t be able to keep records of everything everyone’s ever done on there.
good ol’ capitalism, corporations need ever growing profits