Additional Context: The state government of Bavaria (and several others around that same period, with similar ideas) passed a controversial reform of police laws in 2017-2018 (It was polemically called “The strictest police law since 1945”).
It included changes such as:
increased allowance of use of personal data by the police forces.
allowing the police to openly film and photograph people participating in public gatherings.
allowing the police to infringe on postal secrecy and to confiscate mail without a person’s knowledge. (if given permission by the courts)
allowing the use of police spies. Including even entering people’s homes if given permission.
As well as making previous restrictions such as on “probable danger” way more lax.
Blackdoomax@sh.itjust.works
on 12 Sep 2023 13:52
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They should put some kind of mark on all those suspicious people and their house, to also let other people know who lives among them.
TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
on 10 Sep 2023 22:31
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This is legal Germany?
Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.de
on 10 Sep 2023 22:33
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Bavaria doesn’t even pretend to care anymore.
alvvayson@lemmy.world
on 10 Sep 2023 22:37
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I can’t read German, but we have a similar legal system in the Netherlands.
Most likely, these people committed some crime during a previous protest, such as illegally entering private property or vandalism. Often they will get sentences that are conditional.
If there is evidence to believe they are conspiring to commit a similar illegal act, then the conditional part of the sentence gets triggered.
squaresinger@feddit.de
on 10 Sep 2023 23:45
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Nope, it’s actually only that the police has reason to believe that they might commit a crime.
No need for them to be prior offenders or anything. The police can arrest anyone at any time if they believe you might commit a crime. And even comparatively minor things like blocking traffic counts.
wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee
on 11 Sep 2023 00:19
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Is this similar to a conspiracy charge?
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 11 Sep 2023 02:25
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It doesn’t sound like it. Conspiracy means there’s documented evidence of a plan and motive to commit a crime. This doesn’t seem like it meets that standard.
wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee
on 11 Sep 2023 02:30
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Thanks. I have no clue about German law. Oddly even though America has a large German population historically, our laws are based on English, French and Spanish laws.
squaresinger@feddit.de
on 11 Sep 2023 14:44
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The difference in regards to a conspiracy charge is that you don’t need a conspiracy behind it.
In Germany, there are actually 18 different laws regarding this, since that part of the law is federated. So each state of Germany (plus the federal police and the federal criminal police) has it’s own law regarding under what circumstances they are allowed to arrest someone before they committed a crime and for how long.
Originally, these laws had two purposes:
Stop someone from committing a serious crime
Stop someone from doing harm to themselves
And as such, these laws used to have tight limits on when they can apply and for how long people are allowed to be arrested.
A case could be made for these laws. E.g. if someone announces online that they are going to shoot kids at a school, it would be totally justified to quickly bag that guy before he kills children. Waiting for a court order might not be fast enough to save the would-be victims.
But then they started to expand the reasons why someone can be arrested and for how long.
In Bavaria, for example, it’s enough that someone carries items that can be used for criminal purposes. And there they can jail people for up to two months without a charge.
There have been cases where someone was put in jail for two months for carrying items like crowbars or ropes in their backpacks.
Admetus@sopuli.xyz
on 11 Sep 2023 06:00
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Well they did identify themselves as members of a group that publicly announced it would continue to commit crimes.
squaresinger@feddit.de
on 11 Sep 2023 15:44
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Well, no. Blocking traffic is no crime. It’s just a misdemeanor (Verwaltungsübertretung).
theKalash@feddit.ch
on 11 Sep 2023 15:49
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It’s really something for the lawyers but it could be considered “Nötigung” (§ 181 StGB) and/or “Gefährlicher Eingriff in den Straßenverkehr” (§ 315b StGB).
Pretty sure if it’s in the StGB it’s a “crime” (Straftat).
SheeEttin@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 17:13
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In English, at least for the US, there are typically only misdemeanors and felonies, and both are crimes. There are also violations, but those are usually civil, not criminal (parking tickets, for example).
squaresinger@feddit.de
on 11 Sep 2023 19:09
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Sorry, mistranslation. I meant violations. Over here we only split into violations and crimes.
Violations cover most things done with a car/in traffic without actively harming someone.
SheeEttin@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 21:13
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Yeah, in English (in the US, generally) we’d call that a civil violation. Or a civil action where a lawsuit is brought by a private citizen, like suing someone for damaging your property. It’s against the law, but probably not going to be prosecuted by the government.
dojan@lemmy.world
on 10 Sep 2023 23:08
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There is a law that lets the police take people into custody to prevent terror attacks, but that’s not the case here.
Complaints have been lodged before, but hitherto dismissed. And final clarity on the legality of the procedure is still pending.
But this is in fact how the police argues. Climate protests are terror attacks (since they disrupt traffic) and therefore this is justified.
Pretty sure the Bundesverfassungsgericht (basically our supreme court) will shut this practice down – just like all the other times Bavarian laws have been ruled unconstitutional – but Bavaria doesn’t care. They scrap the law and replace it with a similar unconstitutional version and wait 2 years until the Bundesverfassungsgericht rules it unconstitutional and so on.
Haui@discuss.tchncs.de
on 11 Sep 2023 04:37
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It’s basically our texas or florida, depending on your pov. It’s a place with great nature, interesting culture but also very crude beliefs and you either like the culture or you dont. Most importantly, police is said to be a pot rougher over there and politics is pretty conservative as well.
hoshikarakitaridia@sh.itjust.works
on 10 Sep 2023 23:19
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Kind of. Iirc it’s a very controversial practice and whenever the police pulls it out in a public case it gets protested again (for good reason). Also, even if the practice is legal right now, there’s a lot of limitations to it. Obviously it’s nudging the ethical boundaries of police work either way.
Maybe they should arrest everyone that might protest against this before they arrest the other people that might protest against climate change. But then people might protest against that too. I guess everyone is under arrest! You’re all under arrest. Get in the hole!
Actually, Bavaria has a 2 month limit. Schleswig-Holstein is the one with no limit.
Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de
on 23 Sep 2023 18:32
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Makes sense, they border denmark after all
darreninthenet@sh.itjust.works
on 10 Sep 2023 22:32
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I’d like to know how that’s even remotely compliant with the ECHR???
SheeEttin@lemmy.world
on 10 Sep 2023 22:40
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What does this have to do with technology?
cyberfae@kbin.social
on 10 Sep 2023 23:16
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OP may have posted it to this mag instead of another one by mistake
potajito@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 09:54
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It’s minority report but crappier.
sugarfree@lemmy.world
on 10 Sep 2023 22:44
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The Germans have a history of these things, they try to pretend it’s all in the past but here they are right back to their old ways. It’s unacceptable for anyone to be detained in this way, period.
dojan@lemmy.world
on 10 Sep 2023 23:00
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It’s absolutely better to let people be free and do whatever they want, than to apprehend them ahead of time when they’re suspected of planning to carry out a crime.
Just imagine if the people who carried out the 11th September attack had been caught in the planning stage? Then tomorrow would just be a normal day instead of a sad day of remembrance.
That would’ve been outrageous!
elbarto777@lemmy.world
on 10 Sep 2023 23:03
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This is sort of a reverse godwin.
SheeEttin@lemmy.world
on 10 Sep 2023 23:04
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Ah yes, protesting destruction of the environment and terrorism killing thousands, definitely equivalent acts
So either Germany has like 30 climate protesters, or these particular protesters are thought to be up to something and thus detained ahead of time to prevent them from causing damage either to people or property.
It’s worth noting that
The legality of this is being disputed and,
The decision to detain these people is labelled as controversial by the article
You can bet your arsehole that there’ll be people protesting at the event, and protesting hasn’t magically been made illegal.
If you’ve been caught trying to hijack a plane in the past, you might find yourself being under extra scrutiny next time you try to fly. That’s entirely on you.
I frequently call for the heads of big oil CEOs and enabling politicians, I don’t think I’ll ever be let within a kilometre of either type of people.
timconspicuous@lemmy.ml
on 11 Sep 2023 02:19
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I’m begging you to take a look at the dangerous nefarious terroristic acts Letzte Generation usually engages in. They do non-violent road blockades. Sometimes they chain themselves to stuff. They might even spray some paint on a private jet sitting in a lot. These are the criminal masterminds Germany needs to crack out pre-crime for. It’s the mildest bullshit you can imagine.
And what is that going to achieve? Because they glue themselves to the autobahn, or chain themselves to a dozen cars, people will magically stop driving?
Then what? How is people not driving affecting the grand scheme of things?
It’s not. Do something useful, like get to the people responsible. Idiotic stunts like super gluing yourself to a table is making a mockery of the entire climate movement.
The suffragettes fucked with census and blew shit up. It’s time to take a leaf from their playbook.
You’re right. It’s the world we live in, and it’s absolute garbage for a wide range of reasons.
bleepbloopbleep@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 07:29
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Yeah, us evil, evil Germans … lol
Please educate yourself:
There are rightwing tendencies even in your country, but they’re coloured differently.
If you’d take a closer look at world politics you’d find that there is an alarming trend concerning exactly this.
Best example would be Italy - they’ve just elected a right-wing party and all hells breaking loose as they’ve started restructuring the social security system over there, leaving many, many families moneyless. Without any warning in advance. And that’s just the start.
China is still on with their genocide - the Uigur must die it seems, no matter what. There’s still concentration camps.
I could go on for hours.
But yeah. You’re right. Us Germans are notorious and blind towards our history.
5ublimation@hexbear.net
on 11 Sep 2023 00:04
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freedom of association moment
BlackNo1@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 00:38
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hmmm this reminds me of something i just cant quite remember
electrogamerman@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 07:11
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To be fair, in this case 16 people are already free since yesterday. The other 9 have been taken into custody while demonstrating. Not because of the demonstrating itself, but for various reasons, ranging from resistance against the police to cases where they technically endangered someones live by blocking emergency vehicles. They will be in jail for another 19 days. Another reason for longer jail sentences are them being impossible to learn, aka. not changing behaviour from previous incidents.
KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml
on 12 Sep 2023 03:02
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Oktoberfest! Those days were a real gas!
This is the worst thing i’ve ever said online.
OprahsedCreature@lemmy.ml
on 12 Sep 2023 04:15
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Ohh, I’ve seen this one before, it’s a classic!
anarchotoothbrushist@lemmy.ml
on 11 Sep 2023 00:46
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‘Innocent until deemed inconvenient.’
betwixthewires@lemmy.basedcount.com
on 11 Sep 2023 01:07
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I find it funny, you talk about freedom, Europeans will defend their governments as free, shit on the US, defend government power in the name of protecting the public, but then, preemptively jailing people, like previous authoritarian states of Europe would do, and they’re all surprised pikachu face. I doubt they’ll ever get it, Europeans are lemmings.
Except the French. The French light shit on fire when their government displeases them.
crusty@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 11 Sep 2023 01:28
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This is generalising a bit much done you think? This is like saying all US states are the same, but more outrageous as they’re completely separate countries with different cultures, languages, and governments
betwixthewires@lemmy.basedcount.com
on 11 Sep 2023 03:24
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well, you have a history of authoritarianism and warrantless detention in many, many European countries, the US is all entirely subject to the US constitution which explicitly forbids warrantless searches, detention absent due process and things like that. It has a few blind spots, and the rules are broken, but generally can be corrected and the culprits prosecuted. Detention in Germany for example without a jury trial and evidence of illegal activity is perfectly legal, as it is in the UK and almost every other European country so long as it protects the general welfare or some other such broad meaningless condition.
rammer@sopuli.xyz
on 11 Sep 2023 03:35
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US does shit like this all the time. Guantanamo bay ring a bell? There are still people there who haven’t been convicted of a crime.
flucksy_bango@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 06:41
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constitution which explicitly forbids warrantless searches
Bullshit. I have been arrested for a warrantless search.
It has a few blind spots, and the rules are broken, but generally can be corrected and the culprits prosecuted.
Absolute dog shit take. Sounds like the law has been favouring you. Most aren’t so lucky.
anarchotoothbrushist@lemmy.ml
on 11 Sep 2023 01:28
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English translation (from Google Translate):
Last generation: 27 climate demonstrators in Bavaria were preventively imprisoned
In the run-up to the IAA motor show, the police in Bavaria took activists from the last generation into so-called preventative detention. The procedure is very controversial.
By Kai Biermann
September 2, 2023, 4:14 pm
According to Last Generation, Bavarian authorities have currently put a total of 27 supporters of the group in prison without trial or verdict. This means that the number of activists in preventive detention has almost doubled, the group writes in a statement. They are therefore being held in the Stadelheim and Memmingen correctional facilities.
A large number of them were apparently taken into custody in connection with the IAA International Motor Show, which is scheduled to take place in Munich from September 5th to 10th. The last generation had announced protests against the fair. According to Last Generation, at least 16 of those affected are in custody until September 10th.
Eleven more are expected to serve longer sentences. According to Munich police, ten of them were taken into custody during a blockade on Friday. The Munich district court then ordered that they remain in prison until September 30th.
Nowhere as long as in Bavaria
Legally, this police approach is called preventive detention because it is not detention for a crime that has been committed. The police laws of the different states allow this for different lengths of time. In Bavaria, up to one month in prison is permitted, which may be extended by a judge for a maximum of another month. In other federal states, however, it is usually only a few days.
The so-called preventive or preventive detention is very controversial. The relevant laws were originally created to prevent terrorists from carrying out attacks. However, this form of detention is now also permitted in the case of the “imminent commission or continuation of an administrative offense of considerable importance for the general public,” as the Bavarian police law states. Lawsuits against this have so far been rejected in Bavaria. However, a final clarification about the legality of this approach is still pending.
This form of deprivation of liberty is all the more problematic because the protesters will not face imprisonment if they are convicted for a blockade. The corresponding procedures regularly only end with fines.
Carla Rochel, the spokesperson for the Last Generation, writes in the statement: “The question we as a society have to ask ourselves at this moment is: Do we think it’s okay that protest for all of our basic right to life means prison instead of climate protection is answered?”
jet@hackertalks.com
on 11 Sep 2023 10:31
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Thank you for the translation. This is exactly why people need to be wary of tools used against bad actors, that will then be used against everyone. A tool in the toolbox will be used by the police. Slippery slope is real. Once you establish precedent the tool is useful, you’ll see it again.
inasaba@lemmy.ml
on 11 Sep 2023 12:51
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In Canada I’m very wary of the current trial against the leaders of the Freedom Convoy for this reason. Popular sentiment at the time of their protest was that they were bad for blocking the road, and what comes from this trial could set precedent that could be used to criminalize climate and social justice protests in the future.
The Freedom Convoy in Canada fought for the deaths of disabled and elderly people so they could be irresponsible. It’s not anywhere near the same thinf
I am well aware. But if precedent is set that protesting in the streets won’t be allowed going forward, it will have negative ramifications for leftist movements.
waspentalive@lemmy.one
on 11 Sep 2023 14:14
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It’s not a slippery slope fallacy, if the slope is actually slippery.
Aceticon@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 15:17
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Bad actors are everywhere and are especially drawn to positions of power (normal people see life-changing power over others as a major responsability, hence a burden).
This is why you limit power concentration on any single individual or organisation, have checks-and-balances on power and have higher demands of transparency and reporting one those with power than on run-of-the-mill citizens.
Of course the assholes drawn to power will do everything they can to subvert, nullify, remove or bypass those mechanisms and the reasons why we see right here in how these people (never forget, organisations are not sentient: it’s always people making decisions) because they could choose to use these kind of laws that break the spirit of the Rule Of Law in democracies - which we were told were for use against terrorists (a very specific type of mass murder) - against demonstrators who have not even committed an actual crime and whose history indicated that the biggest crime the would ever commit would be mild property damage, something nowhere near the range of actual murder, much less mass murder.
Aceticon@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 15:05
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Oh, look those of us that were pointing out the risk of abuse of all those high-overreach laws passed in the aftermath of 9/11 during peak “terrorist scare” (even though more people died from falling in their bathtubs than from terrorist attacks) are once again proven right.
What! A! Surprise!
UlyssesT@hexbear.net
on 11 Sep 2023 01:37
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EDIT: <img alt="reddit-logo" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/4aac8007-876f-4c7f-936d-b7eabf506ef4.png"> is leaking again; apparently even emojis can get pulled over by the Pedantry Police. 🚔 <img alt="berdly-actually" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/5679045f-1d00-4576-a8d8-9b70c4ef930e.png"> 🚓
NotErisma@hexbear.net
on 11 Sep 2023 02:47
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Ah yes being chained by vroom vroom for wrongthonk, just like in my spooky sci-fi treat 1979 by George Foreman.
Did the cops at least wear cowboy hats and greet them by saying 'audi pardner?
Fair enough.
I don’t believe it is a very popular story so that might be the reason.
Why is there even an Emoji for the book? Does it come up that often on hexchat?
UlyssesT@hexbear.net
on 12 Sep 2023 05:42
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I don’t believe it is a very popular story so that might be the reason.
It was popular enough for me to have known about it before I saw the emoji.
Why is there even an Emoji for the book? Does it come up that often on hexchat?
Because the Hexbear creator of emojis decided it’d be fun to add it, and it was almost immediately used to summarize bleak and terrible future outcomes, especially in reference to this moment mocking the tendency of tech billionaires to miss the point of the fiction they consume and make announcements about how they want to make the bad things in such fiction come true:
Edit: oh and what is stormfront?
Edit 2: the “I have no mouth…” game is also pretty great and was given away for free on GOG a while back so you might already have it, if you keep track of those things. That game is inspired by the book but it is mainly it’s own story.
PipedLinkBot@feddit.rocks
on 12 Sep 2023 05:54
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That’s just a little jab at Reddit itself for its cryptofascist leanings. The emoji that Hexbear marks as “Reddit” uses the text of Reddit’s old Stormfront community, which was itself a nazi hangout until it was mod-raided to become a weather forecast community, but the name’s meaning persisted.
PipedLinkBot@feddit.rocks
on 12 Sep 2023 06:02
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NotErisma@hexbear.net
on 12 Sep 2023 19:36
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You: [policing emoji use]
Me: <img alt="no-mouth-must-scream" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/a27b86d9-66c0-47fb-9088-211861fa1d0e.png"> noooo I can’t use whatever I want!!
No, but we have this thing called the 6th amendment that lays out the minimum requirements for prosecution. (known as due process). Pre-crime clearly breaks those minimums.
Knusper@feddit.de
on 11 Sep 2023 06:21
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This is specifically Bavaria. They also recently found out that their vice president has a past as a Nazi and the reaction of their president was essentially “Oh no. Anyway…”. So, yeah, if you considered visiting the Oktoberfest, maybe reconsider.
fusio@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 07:37
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what is not going to Oktoberfest gonna do?
baguettefish@discuss.tchncs.de
on 11 Sep 2023 08:14
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being out of reach of nazis or conservative christians can increase safety and well-being
But what if I want to snort Wiesnkoks off of a dick?
Noodle07@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 12:53
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So you’re saying we should all drop social media? Not a bad idea
Knusper@feddit.de
on 11 Sep 2023 10:29
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Eh, I don’t expect random tourists to be locked up by the fascists, nor do I necessarily expect the not-quite-fascists to distance themselves from the fascists, just from losses in the tourism industry.
I’m mostly just saying, there’s tons of places you could be traveling to and “drinking beer with fascists” isn’t quite as attractive anymore.
PrinzMegahertz@lemmy.world
on 12 Sep 2023 06:33
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Phegan@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 18:15
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Half of the voting population. Less people actually agree with conservatives in the US than our voting splits indicate. They are either indifferent or have been suppressed from voting.
crazybuppie@lemmy.world
on 11 Sep 2023 23:16
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That’s not even a little fun tbh
Venus@hexbear.net
on 12 Sep 2023 02:49
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And also the other half
Death to amerikkka <img alt="amerikkka" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/6dedb145-206a-4b35-ab5e-c9e41e1130c7.png">
Tankiedesantski@hexbear.net
on 12 Sep 2023 03:57
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The other half thinks the protestors should get the electric chair.
lambalicious@lemmy.sdf.org
on 11 Sep 2023 19:08
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As much as Germany denies it, it has been proven in the last 10 or so years that they really loved their nazi days. France seems to also love having been under nazi occupation too, and they seem to have a similar anti-environmentalist attitude.
mwguy@infosec.pub
on 12 Sep 2023 02:30
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When did Anti-environmentalist tomfoolery become pro-Nazi?
bitsplease@lemmy.ml
on 12 Sep 2023 02:36
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More pro-fascism
TheBroodian@hexbear.net
on 12 Sep 2023 02:41
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I mean, Nazis have a consistent record of being everything anti human and good personified. Capitalists want oil production to continue, they’ll fund fascists to be their force to ensure it goes uninterrupted
Nazis were largely wiped out before society at large realized Carbon emissions were a problem. Externalizing problems with our nation states on “Nazi Gremlins” instead of our lack of dedication to freedom is exactly why these theoretical protestors are political prisoners.
Tankiedesantski@hexbear.net
on 12 Sep 2023 03:56
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The NSDAP was wiped out in 1945 but denazification was woefully incomplete and individual Nazis held positions of power in institutions like NATO, NASA, West German intelligence, etc, well after the 50s. That’s just direct members of the NSDAP and not all the neo-nazi splinter parties which West Germany and United Germany by their own admissions never wiped out. Add onto that various explicitly neo-Nazi groups in other countries and active militant Nazi-adjacent groups overseas and I don’t think it’s accurate or productive to say that Nazism has been “largely wiped out”.
The tactics are tyrannical but not uniquely fascist. Jailing political opponents because they angered the crown is a European tradition that predates Rome.
pinkdrunkenelephants@sopuli.xyz
on 12 Sep 2023 03:31
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Fair. I guess fascist is just what humanity has come to call such things.
mosscap@slrpnk.net
on 12 Sep 2023 05:13
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Fascist is also what humanity uses to refer to actual fascism, which is having a pretty unfortunate resurgence at the moment. Its not just referring to tyranny.
Their motivations were still racist and bad, but the Nazis in Germany were not anti-environment.
Unless you mean modern Nazis, at which point ok maybe I haven’t really researched modern Nazis. I know the people they support certainly are, whether they admit they’re Nazis or not.
bingbong@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 12 Sep 2023 16:30
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On a thread about Nazi Germany, forgive me for staying on topic.
bingbong@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 12 Sep 2023 18:39
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My bad, I didn’t notice that.
I do think though that the parent comment was mainly referring to detaining people without due process when talking about Nazi Germany, rather than the environmental perspective.
I think France misses the height of their days of imperialism. Germany definitely at the very least is still heavily influenced by Hitler’s propaganda (as is much of the EU tbh)
emizeko@hexbear.net
on 12 Sep 2023 03:22
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in bad authoritarian soviet gommulist china,,
HawlSera@lemm.ee
on 12 Sep 2023 03:26
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Did Nazi that coming
Flinch@hexbear.net
on 12 Sep 2023 03:39
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threaded - newest
What the fuck
Bavaria is a traditionally very conservative state. The Conservative party is ruling with an iron grip for decades.
But Munich
Bavaria is our Texas.
<img alt="" src="https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/6ee5271e-498b-4771-95ba-69e265a63b2b.png">
Germany is not alright and Bavaria is the least alright , nominally leftist parties barely get up to 10% in elections there so yeah was to be expected.
<img alt="" src="https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/2a29ca64-7858-4c1e-8181-80bd7380285f.png">
But yeah.
Additional Context: The state government of Bavaria (and several others around that same period, with similar ideas) passed a controversial reform of police laws in 2017-2018 (It was polemically called “The strictest police law since 1945”).
It included changes such as:
increased allowance of use of personal data by the police forces.
allowing the police to openly film and photograph people participating in public gatherings.
allowing the police to infringe on postal secrecy and to confiscate mail without a person’s knowledge. (if given permission by the courts)
allowing the use of police spies. Including even entering people’s homes if given permission.
As well as making previous restrictions such as on “probable danger” way more lax.
They should put some kind of mark on all those suspicious people and their house, to also let other people know who lives among them.
This is legal Germany?
Bavaria doesn’t even pretend to care anymore.
I can’t read German, but we have a similar legal system in the Netherlands.
Most likely, these people committed some crime during a previous protest, such as illegally entering private property or vandalism. Often they will get sentences that are conditional.
If there is evidence to believe they are conspiring to commit a similar illegal act, then the conditional part of the sentence gets triggered.
Nope, it’s actually only that the police has reason to believe that they might commit a crime.
No need for them to be prior offenders or anything. The police can arrest anyone at any time if they believe you might commit a crime. And even comparatively minor things like blocking traffic counts.
Is this similar to a conspiracy charge?
It doesn’t sound like it. Conspiracy means there’s documented evidence of a plan and motive to commit a crime. This doesn’t seem like it meets that standard.
Thanks. I have no clue about German law. Oddly even though America has a large German population historically, our laws are based on English, French and Spanish laws.
The difference in regards to a conspiracy charge is that you don’t need a conspiracy behind it.
In Germany, there are actually 18 different laws regarding this, since that part of the law is federated. So each state of Germany (plus the federal police and the federal criminal police) has it’s own law regarding under what circumstances they are allowed to arrest someone before they committed a crime and for how long.
Originally, these laws had two purposes:
And as such, these laws used to have tight limits on when they can apply and for how long people are allowed to be arrested.
A case could be made for these laws. E.g. if someone announces online that they are going to shoot kids at a school, it would be totally justified to quickly bag that guy before he kills children. Waiting for a court order might not be fast enough to save the would-be victims.
But then they started to expand the reasons why someone can be arrested and for how long.
In Bavaria, for example, it’s enough that someone carries items that can be used for criminal purposes. And there they can jail people for up to two months without a charge.
There have been cases where someone was put in jail for two months for carrying items like crowbars or ropes in their backpacks.
Feels like a half assed Minority Report plotline.
“Okay, so what cool plot idea do we use to determine who might commit crimes?”
“IDK, just anyone maybe? People who use the internet?”
Same way I look for weed in illegal countries; find hippies and dreadlocks.
Well they did identify themselves as members of a group that publicly announced it would continue to commit crimes.
Well, no. Blocking traffic is no crime. It’s just a misdemeanor (Verwaltungsübertretung).
It’s really something for the lawyers but it could be considered “Nötigung” (§ 181 StGB) and/or “Gefährlicher Eingriff in den Straßenverkehr” (§ 315b StGB).
Pretty sure if it’s in the StGB it’s a “crime” (Straftat).
In English, at least for the US, there are typically only misdemeanors and felonies, and both are crimes. There are also violations, but those are usually civil, not criminal (parking tickets, for example).
Sorry, mistranslation. I meant violations. Over here we only split into violations and crimes.
Violations cover most things done with a car/in traffic without actively harming someone.
Yeah, in English (in the US, generally) we’d call that a civil violation. Or a civil action where a lawsuit is brought by a private citizen, like suing someone for damaging your property. It’s against the law, but probably not going to be prosecuted by the government.
There is a law that lets the police take people into custody to prevent terror attacks, but that’s not the case here.
Complaints have been lodged before, but hitherto dismissed. And final clarity on the legality of the procedure is still pending.
It helps to read the article.
But this is in fact how the police argues. Climate protests are terror attacks (since they disrupt traffic) and therefore this is justified.
Pretty sure the Bundesverfassungsgericht (basically our supreme court) will shut this practice down – just like all the other times Bavarian laws have been ruled unconstitutional – but Bavaria doesn’t care. They scrap the law and replace it with a similar unconstitutional version and wait 2 years until the Bundesverfassungsgericht rules it unconstitutional and so on.
It’s basically our texas or florida, depending on your pov. It’s a place with great nature, interesting culture but also very crude beliefs and you either like the culture or you dont. Most importantly, police is said to be a pot rougher over there and politics is pretty conservative as well.
Kind of. Iirc it’s a very controversial practice and whenever the police pulls it out in a public case it gets protested again (for good reason). Also, even if the practice is legal right now, there’s a lot of limitations to it. Obviously it’s nudging the ethical boundaries of police work either way.
Maybe they should arrest everyone that might protest against this before they arrest the other people that might protest against climate change. But then people might protest against that too. I guess everyone is under arrest! You’re all under arrest. Get in the hole!
Oly in Bavaria. In every other German State this can only be done for a few days max in extreme situations.
Actually, Bavaria has a 2 month limit. Schleswig-Holstein is the one with no limit.
Makes sense, they border denmark after all
I’d like to know how that’s even remotely compliant with the ECHR???
What does this have to do with technology?
OP may have posted it to this mag instead of another one by mistake
It’s minority report but crappier.
The Germans have a history of these things, they try to pretend it’s all in the past but here they are right back to their old ways. It’s unacceptable for anyone to be detained in this way, period.
It’s absolutely better to let people be free and do whatever they want, than to apprehend them ahead of time when they’re suspected of planning to carry out a crime.
Just imagine if the people who carried out the 11th September attack had been caught in the planning stage? Then tomorrow would just be a normal day instead of a sad day of remembrance.
That would’ve been outrageous!
This is sort of a reverse godwin.
Ah yes, protesting destruction of the environment and terrorism killing thousands, definitely equivalent acts
So either Germany has like 30 climate protesters, or these particular protesters are thought to be up to something and thus detained ahead of time to prevent them from causing damage either to people or property.
It’s worth noting that
You can bet your arsehole that there’ll be people protesting at the event, and protesting hasn’t magically been made illegal.
If you’ve been caught trying to hijack a plane in the past, you might find yourself being under extra scrutiny next time you try to fly. That’s entirely on you.
I frequently call for the heads of big oil CEOs and enabling politicians, I don’t think I’ll ever be let within a kilometre of either type of people.
I’m begging you to take a look at the dangerous nefarious terroristic acts Letzte Generation usually engages in. They do non-violent road blockades. Sometimes they chain themselves to stuff. They might even spray some paint on a private jet sitting in a lot. These are the criminal masterminds Germany needs to crack out pre-crime for. It’s the mildest bullshit you can imagine.
And what is that going to achieve? Because they glue themselves to the autobahn, or chain themselves to a dozen cars, people will magically stop driving?
Then what? How is people not driving affecting the grand scheme of things?
It’s not. Do something useful, like get to the people responsible. Idiotic stunts like super gluing yourself to a table is making a mockery of the entire climate movement.
The suffragettes fucked with census and blew shit up. It’s time to take a leaf from their playbook.
“They must have been planning something terrible”
“They weren’t”
“Well they should have!”
🤔
You’re just being contrarian.
Unironically would be an awful world if people could be arrested for suspicion of wanting to potentially someday do a crime
You’re right. It’s the world we live in, and it’s absolute garbage for a wide range of reasons.
Yeah, us evil, evil Germans … lol
Please educate yourself: There are rightwing tendencies even in your country, but they’re coloured differently.
If you’d take a closer look at world politics you’d find that there is an alarming trend concerning exactly this.
Best example would be Italy - they’ve just elected a right-wing party and all hells breaking loose as they’ve started restructuring the social security system over there, leaving many, many families moneyless. Without any warning in advance. And that’s just the start.
China is still on with their genocide - the Uigur must die it seems, no matter what. There’s still concentration camps.
I could go on for hours.
But yeah. You’re right. Us Germans are notorious and blind towards our history.
freedom of association moment
hmmm this reminds me of something i just cant quite remember
Did i leave the oven on?
Yeah, but there’s a solution for that.
To be fair, in this case 16 people are already free since yesterday. The other 9 have been taken into custody while demonstrating. Not because of the demonstrating itself, but for various reasons, ranging from resistance against the police to cases where they technically endangered someones live by blocking emergency vehicles. They will be in jail for another 19 days. Another reason for longer jail sentences are them being impossible to learn, aka. not changing behaviour from previous incidents.
Oktoberfest! Those days were a real gas!
This is the worst thing i’ve ever said online.
Ohh, I’ve seen this one before, it’s a classic!
‘Innocent until deemed inconvenient.’
I find it funny, you talk about freedom, Europeans will defend their governments as free, shit on the US, defend government power in the name of protecting the public, but then, preemptively jailing people, like previous authoritarian states of Europe would do, and they’re all surprised pikachu face. I doubt they’ll ever get it, Europeans are lemmings.
Except the French. The French light shit on fire when their government displeases them.
This is generalising a bit much done you think? This is like saying all US states are the same, but more outrageous as they’re completely separate countries with different cultures, languages, and governments
well, you have a history of authoritarianism and warrantless detention in many, many European countries, the US is all entirely subject to the US constitution which explicitly forbids warrantless searches, detention absent due process and things like that. It has a few blind spots, and the rules are broken, but generally can be corrected and the culprits prosecuted. Detention in Germany for example without a jury trial and evidence of illegal activity is perfectly legal, as it is in the UK and almost every other European country so long as it protects the general welfare or some other such broad meaningless condition.
US does shit like this all the time. Guantanamo bay ring a bell? There are still people there who haven’t been convicted of a crime.
That doesn’t count, those were brown people!
Bullshit. I have been arrested for a warrantless search.
Absolute dog shit take. Sounds like the law has been favouring you. Most aren’t so lucky.
English translation (from Google Translate):
Thank you for the translation. This is exactly why people need to be wary of tools used against bad actors, that will then be used against everyone. A tool in the toolbox will be used by the police. Slippery slope is real. Once you establish precedent the tool is useful, you’ll see it again.
In Canada I’m very wary of the current trial against the leaders of the Freedom Convoy for this reason. Popular sentiment at the time of their protest was that they were bad for blocking the road, and what comes from this trial could set precedent that could be used to criminalize climate and social justice protests in the future.
The Freedom Convoy in Canada fought for the deaths of disabled and elderly people so they could be irresponsible. It’s not anywhere near the same thinf
I am well aware. But if precedent is set that protesting in the streets won’t be allowed going forward, it will have negative ramifications for leftist movements.
It’s not a slippery slope fallacy, if the slope is actually slippery.
Bad actors are everywhere and are especially drawn to positions of power (normal people see life-changing power over others as a major responsability, hence a burden).
This is why you limit power concentration on any single individual or organisation, have checks-and-balances on power and have higher demands of transparency and reporting one those with power than on run-of-the-mill citizens.
Of course the assholes drawn to power will do everything they can to subvert, nullify, remove or bypass those mechanisms and the reasons why we see right here in how these people (never forget, organisations are not sentient: it’s always people making decisions) because they could choose to use these kind of laws that break the spirit of the Rule Of Law in democracies - which we were told were for use against terrorists (a very specific type of mass murder) - against demonstrators who have not even committed an actual crime and whose history indicated that the biggest crime the would ever commit would be mild property damage, something nowhere near the range of actual murder, much less mass murder.
Oh, look those of us that were pointing out the risk of abuse of all those high-overreach laws passed in the aftermath of 9/11 during peak “terrorist scare” (even though more people died from falling in their bathtubs than from terrorist attacks) are once again proven right.
What! A! Surprise!
PRE-CRIME, JUST LIKE IN THE SCI-FI TREATS
<img alt="soypoint-1" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/f60b272a-951c-4280-a407-a40408fc5aaf.png"> <img alt="no-mouth-must-scream" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/a27b86d9-66c0-47fb-9088-211861fa1d0e.png"> <img alt="soypoint-2" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/2a3eda93-16bf-4eb8-a4a9-fe85ce53fe4a.png">
EDIT: <img alt="reddit-logo" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/4aac8007-876f-4c7f-936d-b7eabf506ef4.png"> is leaking again; apparently even emojis can get pulled over by the Pedantry Police. 🚔 <img alt="berdly-actually" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/5679045f-1d00-4576-a8d8-9b70c4ef930e.png"> 🚓
Ah yes being chained by vroom vroom for
wrongthonk, just like in my spooky sci-fi treat 1979 by George Foreman.Did the cops at least wear cowboy hats and greet them by saying
'audi pardner?<img alt="blob-no-thoughts" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/1ef20b55-8fcc-4ed6-8fa2-57d4faa6b6a6.png">
<img alt="kelly" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/4130400e-bfdb-4b39-bee4-739802528a0f.png">
this some kind of deep fried 10k times folded turbo meming that wouldn’t even be allowed on the autobahn.
What does this have to do with “I have no mouth and i must scream”?
I can’t remember any “pre-crime” in it. Just an AI torturing people for his amusement.
I know.
I was just stretching the application of the emoji to summarize bad futuristic outcomes because there isn’t a Minority Report related emoji yet.
You can’t just use any random emoji you want, that doesn’t make any sense.
I’ve used it for well over a year.
You are the very first person to ever complain about how I used it.
Fair enough. I don’t believe it is a very popular story so that might be the reason.
Why is there even an Emoji for the book? Does it come up that often on hexchat?
It was popular enough for me to have known about it before I saw the emoji.
Because the Hexbear creator of emojis decided it’d be fun to add it, and it was almost immediately used to summarize bleak and terrible future outcomes, especially in reference to this moment mocking the tendency of tech billionaires to miss the point of the fiction they consume and make announcements about how they want to make the bad things in such fiction come true:
i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/…/92f.jpg
Odd, but alright then. Maybe it makes more sense the the “emoji” renders properly.
Have you read the story? If not, do it. It’s pretty great and only around 40 min long.
Harlan Ellison made an audiobook version I listened to, while also reading it at the same time: youtu.be/dgo-As552hY
You can also borrow the book for free here: archive.org/details/ihavenomouthimus0000harl
Or just get it for free in many other places.
Edit: oh and what is stormfront? Edit 2: the “I have no mouth…” game is also pretty great and was given away for free on GOG a while back so you might already have it, if you keep track of those things. That game is inspired by the book but it is mainly it’s own story.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
piped.video/dgo-As552hY
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
I read it years ago. The computer game version had AM voiced by the author himself.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EddX9hnhDS4
That’s just a little jab at Reddit itself for its cryptofascist leanings. The emoji that Hexbear marks as “Reddit” uses the text of Reddit’s old Stormfront community, which was itself a nazi hangout until it was mod-raided to become a weather forecast community, but the name’s meaning persisted.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
piped.video/watch?v=EddX9hnhDS4
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Thanks for explaining and reminding me of the book. I should re-read it.
the absolute state of lemee
says who? lemmitors?
here you go:
<img alt="fidel-cool" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/e49ec664-e5a7-4d5e-909e-8a070fac8435.png"> <img alt="fidel-cool" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/e49ec664-e5a7-4d5e-909e-8a070fac8435.png"> <img alt="fidel-cool" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/e49ec664-e5a7-4d5e-909e-8a070fac8435.png"> <img alt="fidel-cool" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/e49ec664-e5a7-4d5e-909e-8a070fac8435.png"> <img alt="fidel-cool" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/e49ec664-e5a7-4d5e-909e-8a070fac8435.png"> <img alt="fidel-cool" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/e49ec664-e5a7-4d5e-909e-8a070fac8435.png"> <img alt="fidel-cool" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/e49ec664-e5a7-4d5e-909e-8a070fac8435.png"> <img alt="fidel-cool" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/e49ec664-e5a7-4d5e-909e-8a070fac8435.png"> <img alt="fidel-cool" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/e49ec664-e5a7-4d5e-909e-8a070fac8435.png"> <img alt="fidel-cool" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/e49ec664-e5a7-4d5e-909e-8a070fac8435.png"> <img alt="fidel-cool" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/e49ec664-e5a7-4d5e-909e-8a070fac8435.png"> <img alt="fidel-cool" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/e49ec664-e5a7-4d5e-909e-8a070fac8435.png"> <img alt="fidel-cool" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/e49ec664-e5a7-4d5e-909e-8a070fac8435.png"> <img alt="fidel-cool" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/e49ec664-e5a7-4d5e-909e-8a070fac8435.png">
You: [policing emoji use]
Me: <img alt="no-mouth-must-scream" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/a27b86d9-66c0-47fb-9088-211861fa1d0e.png">
noooo I can’t use whatever I want!!It’s just weird to use “emojis” like that. Maybe it makes sense on hexchat but not so much elsewhere.
.
“the free world”
The planet is being cooked by oil companies benefitting from your tax dollars and you’re thrown in jail for disagreeing with it…
but then they want to lecture you about “freedom” when you mention regulating pollution in any capacity.
Ah cool just like my favorite Phillip K Dick story
Some European tell me again why you believe you have free speech.
« Va bien te faire foutre »
Done
To be fair last time I checked Germany isn’t all Europe. They did try once tough…we prefer not talk about it too much nowadays tough.
Didn’t they try twice? We we’re back to back World War champs for nothing.
Typo really messes up my reading comprehension for a moment.
Lols it does. I suck at typing.
Is disrupting traffic by glueing yourself to the road covered by the first ammendment in the US?
No, but we have this thing called the 6th amendment that lays out the minimum requirements for prosecution. (known as due process). Pre-crime clearly breaks those minimums.
This is specifically Bavaria. They also recently found out that their vice president has a past as a Nazi and the reaction of their president was essentially “Oh no. Anyway…”. So, yeah, if you considered visiting the Oktoberfest, maybe reconsider.
what is not going to Oktoberfest gonna do?
being out of reach of nazis or conservative christians can increase safety and well-being
But what if I want to snort Wiesnkoks off of a dick?
So you’re saying we should all drop social media? Not a bad idea
Eh, I don’t expect random tourists to be locked up by the fascists, nor do I necessarily expect the not-quite-fascists to distance themselves from the fascists, just from losses in the tourism industry.
I’m mostly just saying, there’s tons of places you could be traveling to and “drinking beer with fascists” isn’t quite as attractive anymore.
Hurt the bavarian economy.
DEUTSCHLAND 😎💪🏿💪🏿💪🏿
Are those so called “climate protestors” the losers blocking public roads?
Yup, they glue themselves to the streets, blocking the traffic.
Real “Innocence proves nothing” hours
Put there by the really same government you should trust for nuclear power
Political prisoners
Hahaha and people look at them as if they’re a country to be emulated
.
Half of the voting population. Less people actually agree with conservatives in the US than our voting splits indicate. They are either indifferent or have been suppressed from voting.
That’s not even a little fun tbh
And also the other half
Death to amerikkka <img alt="amerikkka" src="https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/6dedb145-206a-4b35-ab5e-c9e41e1130c7.png">
The other half thinks the protestors should get the electric chair.
They want protestors to be quiet and in the distance. God forbid they inconvenience people to get their voices heard
Sadly the US is exactly the same, and even demands permits for protest. But we’re teh freeeeeisst evaeva by crackie
I work with people who actually think that’s a good thing. I really fucking hate my coworkers.
Damn…I hate your coworkers too!
As much as Germany denies it, it has been proven in the last 10 or so years that they really loved their nazi days. France seems to also love having been under nazi occupation too, and they seem to have a similar anti-environmentalist attitude.
When did Anti-environmentalist tomfoolery become pro-Nazi?
More pro-fascism
I mean, Nazis have a consistent record of being everything anti human and good personified. Capitalists want oil production to continue, they’ll fund fascists to be their force to ensure it goes uninterrupted
Nazis were largely wiped out before society at large realized Carbon emissions were a problem. Externalizing problems with our nation states on “Nazi Gremlins” instead of our lack of dedication to freedom is exactly why these theoretical protestors are political prisoners.
The NSDAP was wiped out in 1945 but denazification was woefully incomplete and individual Nazis held positions of power in institutions like NATO, NASA, West German intelligence, etc, well after the 50s. That’s just direct members of the NSDAP and not all the neo-nazi splinter parties which West Germany and United Germany by their own admissions never wiped out. Add onto that various explicitly neo-Nazi groups in other countries and active militant Nazi-adjacent groups overseas and I don’t think it’s accurate or productive to say that Nazism has been “largely wiped out”.
There are more cases of measles in Western society than Nazis. Measles has been “largely wiped out” when compared to it’s peak.
Its.
It’s not the cause, it’s the tactics. Throwing people in jail before they actually do anything is a classic hallmark of tyranny.
The tactics are tyrannical but not uniquely fascist. Jailing political opponents because they angered the crown is a European tradition that predates Rome.
Fair. I guess fascist is just what humanity has come to call such things.
Fascist is also what humanity uses to refer to actual fascism, which is having a pretty unfortunate resurgence at the moment. Its not just referring to tyranny.
I heard someone call the removal of the green M&M fascism once. Just because people label it as such doesn’t make it accurate.
“Become”? No. It just has been for lone one of their indicative “modern” traits.
Gonna need a source on that.
Yeah that’s incorrect.
…facinghistory.org/examining-nazi-environmentalis…
Their motivations were still racist and bad, but the Nazis in Germany were not anti-environment.
Unless you mean modern Nazis, at which point ok maybe I haven’t really researched modern Nazis. I know the people they support certainly are, whether they admit they’re Nazis or not.
I mean… They explicitly said “modern”
On a thread about Nazi Germany, forgive me for staying on topic.
My bad, I didn’t notice that.
I do think though that the parent comment was mainly referring to detaining people without due process when talking about Nazi Germany, rather than the environmental perspective.
I think France misses the height of their days of imperialism. Germany definitely at the very least is still heavily influenced by Hitler’s propaganda (as is much of the EU tbh)
in bad authoritarian soviet gommulist china,,
Did Nazi that coming
<img alt="" src="https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/99b9fe28-b053-42e2-ba35-0c9d839e4750.jpeg">
Is this like Minority-Report-type shit?
First they came for the environmentalists, and I said nothing because I didn’t want my commute to be inconvenienced…
Ohh, I’ve seen this one, it’s a classic!