‘Right to Repair for Your Body’: The Rise of DIY, Pirated Medicine (www.404media.co)
from ArchRecord@lemm.ee to technology@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 01:42
https://lemm.ee/post/41468011

Sharing because I found this very interesting.

The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective has a DIY design for a home lab you can set up to reproduce expensive medication for dirt cheap, producing medication like that used to cure Hepatitis C, along with software they developed that can be used to create chemical compounds out of common household materials.

#technology

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etchinghillside@reddthat.com on 05 Sep 2024 01:47 next collapse

With the same risk to blindness as moonshine?

HungryJerboa@lemmy.ca on 05 Sep 2024 01:58 next collapse

If you’re going to die because you can’t afford it, then does the risk really matter?

thefartographer@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 02:02 collapse

And when you do die, you won’t see it coming!

SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 05 Sep 2024 02:43 next collapse

<img alt="" src="https://media.tenor.com/gJNkVOBJAJQAAAAM/earlycuyler-squidbillies.gif">

katja@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 05 Sep 2024 03:49 next collapse

I you make your own, there is no risk for blindness. Blindness comes from methanol, not ethanol. If you use a yeast based process to produce the alcohol and then distill it, there is no way to accidentally produce methanol in that process. The cases where people get blind or die from moonshine stems from when the feds replaced moonshine with methanol to be able to make that claim and disrupt the business of organized crime during the prohibition. There are still cases now and then where people try to make drinkable alcohol from some industrial base and don’t know how to.

TLDR: Don’t buy, make.

higgsboson@dubvee.org on 05 Sep 2024 14:14 collapse

And use copper pot still with silver solder.

katja@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 05 Sep 2024 18:26 collapse

You are correct. If I gave the impression that it is a safe endeavour, I am sorry. It is safe IF done correctly, but it can get explodey if you fuck up bad enough.

Do your research, keep it small scale and don’t sell.

DreamDrifter@lemmynsfw.com on 05 Sep 2024 09:18 collapse

That was due to additives to ethanol cleaning agents - it was a thing done on purpose

stevedidwhat_infosec@infosec.pub on 05 Sep 2024 02:12 next collapse

Here’s a fun thought, the drug you make fails but doesn’t kill you.

Instead you now have another life long ailment that cause pain/degradation of daily life.

Sounds like a great idea.

AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 02:19 next collapse

And that’s different from the commercial pharmaceutical industry how?

stevedidwhat_infosec@infosec.pub on 05 Sep 2024 13:07 collapse

Commercial drugs are giving people life long diseases on top of the ones they’re trying to cure?

News to me, got any source?

AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 13:53 next collapse

The most notorious is probably thalidomide, but there are plenty others on this list of withdrawn drugs that cause long-term side effects.

stevedidwhat_infosec@infosec.pub on 05 Sep 2024 21:02 collapse

Very interesting, I wasn’t aware of specifics. Obviously I don’t think it’s impossible, but I would think that the grand majority don’t, while this bootleg technique would have a higher rate of creating worse problems for people already suffering and essentially sealing their fate.

We need to tackle big pharma for the problem it is: greed and neglect and I don’t think a pirated solution will make that in any way better for people.

Maybe it does for some but hurts others worse. Which is the same coin as big pharma but worse for some. That’s my perspective, but I hope that an open-source style solution would gain more traction rather than one that’s essentially just ripped music.

People deserve to be healthy

higgsboson@dubvee.org on 05 Sep 2024 14:12 collapse

Never heard of, eg, Vioxx or thalidomide, I take it?

ArchRecord@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 02:23 collapse

As opposed to dying from the disease you already have because the traditional pharmaceutical industry makes the drugs you need out of your price range?

It won’t be a life long ailment for long if you’re going to die from a lack of care soon anyways.

stevedidwhat_infosec@infosec.pub on 05 Sep 2024 13:06 collapse

No no.

In addition to

And stop pretending that the only people to use this are those that would absolutely need it. You know damn well penny pinchers would also go after this

bl_r@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 05 Sep 2024 02:14 next collapse

I fucking love pirate medicine. Fuck the US healthcare system, what good is having the “best healthcare in the world” if you can’t even afford mediocre healthcare?

ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 02:37 next collapse

If it was the best healthcare in the world, we’d have the best outcomes and we don’t even have that for rich people. We have a (non-metric) shit ton of world class research universities and highly respected agencies like the FDA and NIH but Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, can’t even get the mental health services he obviously needs.

I’d obviously rather go to an American hospital than a hospital in most of the world but spending a lot to cover up a shitty system isn’t as good as a functioning system.

Edit: I originally had NHS instead of NIH but the NHS, is, obviously, where British people get their brain medicines.

<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d6d93f34-d82b-45c1-b0d8-b2e7e5b8fca6.jpeg">

bl_r@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 05 Sep 2024 03:13 next collapse

but Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, can’t even get the mental health services he obviously needs

Lmfao

I’d rather get healthcare at all. I’ve been too poor to afford any medical care at points in my life, I’d settle for even some low quality care as opposed to none at all and hoping that this new weird pain either is insignificant and goes away without issue, or it gently takes me out in the night.

I’m excited to see where pirate medicine goes. I’ve met a trans woman who told me that her DIY HRT was life changing in the best possible way, and I can only dream of what would happen if people started making their own Insulin or T or whatever

kspatlas@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 16:38 collapse

The NHS is British, not american

ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 18:37 collapse

Yep. Thanks for catching that. I meant NIH, the U.S. National Institutes of Health and accidentally combined it with HHS (the U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services that NIH is an agency within) and that was apparently too many acronyms.

0x0@programming.dev on 05 Sep 2024 08:43 collapse

Did you really call the US healthcare system the best in the world?

Wrufieotnak@feddit.org on 05 Sep 2024 10:11 next collapse

No, they specifically put it in quotes, to make the distinction.

bl_r@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 05 Sep 2024 13:04 collapse

No. Of course not. I put it in quotes since I was being sarcastic.

cm0002@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 02:27 next collapse

You wouldn’t download a car life saving medicine!

krelvar@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 02:30 next collapse

When a person has nothing left to lose they will take chances that otherwise they wouldn’t. If we weren’t living in a corporatocracy, perhaps there’d be no demand for this sort of thing, but we do and there is.

RangerJosie@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 02:36 next collapse

Piracy is how you got Netflix.

This is how we’ll change the pharmaceutical industry. They’ll overreact and Streisand Effect this and it’ll blow up. Become normalized. The open source tech will improve.

This is a good thing. Period.

Mojave@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 03:43 next collapse

Pirating movies and games can’t kill you

Home brewing seizure medication can

RangerJosie@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 03:48 next collapse

This is America dude. Human life costs $7.25 an hour here. We can’t even do anything to keep children safe from their number 1 killer here.

Nobody cares. Those who do care are completely powerless to change anything.

Yes. Mistakes will happen. People will die. People die every day right now. Many of them because they can’t afford life saving medicine. I’d happily take a risk on this before I’d saddle my family with $50,000 a month for medicine that you can get in Canada or Mexico for $50.

grue@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 07:01 next collapse

We can’t even do anything to keep children safe from their number 1 killer here.

By this the parent commenter means “car crashes,” by the way. Car dependent zoning is literally mass-murdering more children than school shooters ever did and we’re doing almost nothing to fix it.

0x0@programming.dev on 05 Sep 2024 08:41 collapse

Move to Canada.

Sybilvane@lemmy.ca on 05 Sep 2024 09:47 next collapse

Canada doesn’t accept just anyone for no reason.

RangerJosie@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 09:56 next collapse

Can confirm. I tried. Long time ago. Spoke to a lady at a Canadian Embassy.

I didn’t meet the education requirements.

Edit - For anyone curious. I’m a Highschool grad. No college. No secondary at all. Uni or tech. So, an American HS diploma isn’t enough education to be useful to a functional society In pretty much any western nation. I wasn’t even mad at the time. Kinda disappointed. But yeah. I get it.

0x0@programming.dev on 05 Sep 2024 11:02 collapse

Canadians are wise.

And they have maple syrup.

ayyy@sh.itjust.works on 05 Sep 2024 18:29 collapse

Instructions unclear, moved to Alberta and I’m surrounded by Trump flags and austerity measures.

obbeel@lemmy.eco.br on 05 Sep 2024 23:06 collapse

I personally think open source software and hardware is a good starting point to making DIY stuff legal in the future.

werefreeatlast@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 04:45 next collapse

The all new sudafeb…like Sudafed but with a D at the end because they’re chemically the same just with a D at the end.

dovahking@lemmy.world on 06 Sep 2024 02:38 collapse

I wish there was some kind of open source collective organization under which you could release anything with eternal open source license that’d be free forever. It could be anything from software, tech or medicine like penicillin so that megacorps could not benefit from it in any way.

ArchRecord@lemm.ee on 06 Sep 2024 03:00 collapse

The Open Source Initiative has a giant list of licenses that anyone can use to make their works fully open-source.

Some are just for code, but I’m sure they could be adapted to things like medicine, if needed.

shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip on 05 Sep 2024 02:36 next collapse

This is fantastic. If you know what the problem is, because you’ve been diagnosed or whatever, and you know what medicine will do it, and you are capable of making it, I see no issue at all with this. You don’t need a PhD in computer science to browse the internet.

surewhynotlem@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 04:07 collapse

You’ve gone to a malicious website. Now you’ve died.

See, the risks of surfing the web incorrectly are slightly different than the risks of creating medicine incorrectly.

ASDraptor@lemmy.autism.place on 05 Sep 2024 06:31 collapse

You’ve committed the “crime” of being poor while diagnosed with a lethal (but curable) illness that you can’t afford. Now you’ve died.

See, the risks of being poor are slightly different than the risks of not being poor.

surewhynotlem@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 14:57 collapse

Surely. But let’s be realistic. If you’re poor and sick, you’re broke and have no free time.

thatKamGuy@sh.itjust.works on 05 Sep 2024 03:01 next collapse

While this is definitely an interesting proposition, for most people in the US wouldn’t something like Mark Cuban’s CostPlus drugs website be a more reasonable solution?

Jimmycakes@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 03:28 next collapse

They don’t have everything and especially rare mega expensive stuff that’s not widely generic options

ArchRecord@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 04:08 collapse

They could do that, but the drugs are still much too expensive comparatively, and it doesn’t include many drugs, especially the ones that are the most absurdly priced.

For instance, after looking through various articles on him and scraping together some of the data, out of the medications referenced as being some that he’s made:

Misoprostol (Abortion Medication) - $14.90 on CPG - $0.89 via MicroLab

Sovaldi (Cures Hepatitis C) - Not available on CPG (normally $84,000) - $70 via MicroLab

Kalydeco (Treats Cystic Fibrosis) - Not available on CPG (Normally ~$500/day) - $10/day via MicroLab

Daraprim (Treats Parasitic Diseases & Some AIDS Patients) - $2443/30 pills on CPG - $80/30 Pills via MicroLab

Epinephrine (Treats Allergic Reactions, AKA epipen) - Not available on CPG (Normally $650-$750) - Initially $30 via MicroLab ($3/reload after)

The pharmaceutical industry is so screwed up, and these prices only show it more clearly.

BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org on 05 Sep 2024 03:18 next collapse

This seems both awesome and dangerous. The two analogies that come to mind are home canning and home brewing. They’re both generally safe and easy. But every so often someone gives their family botulism.

LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 05 Sep 2024 03:48 collapse

True. A lot of drugs you can perform tests on. But there is an inherent risk. I don’t think making medicine at home is going to be many people’s first choice. I think the people most likely to pursue this are those for whom obtaining medication other ways is not possible. When the government makes it impossible for someone to obtain health care, either due to literally making it illegal or by allowing it to become completely unaffordable for working class people, then they have to resort to other options.

With patience and diligent work it is possible to make many medications with (by comparison) significantly cheaper resources. And if someone were to do this, presumably, there are others who also have similar needs for the medications being produced. Which is how community medicine networks are formed. DIY Hormone replacement medications for trans people living in places where it’s illegal for them to access medication, or otherwise extremely difficult often access medicines made through networks like that.

This isn’t really a new thing, but the ease of access certainly is.

Mirshe@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 10:18 collapse

Yup. The trans community has been doing this with HRT meds for YEARS because it was either straight up illegal, or almost impossible to obtain access because of the dozens of hoops you had to jump through.

LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 05 Sep 2024 03:59 next collapse

They have released a guide on making a CLR (basically several different pieces of lab equipment controlled to automate some of the process) and software to run on it to assist in the process of making the medications. Specifically to try and improve consistency of the medications produced.

It’s a really great cause. Worth reading the article. If someone had to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars cost to access life-saving medication, and they couldn’t afford it, something like this could legitimately save their life.

ArchRecord@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 04:15 collapse

And it’s only made more inspiring by the fact that he has his own personal history with the pharmaceutical industry that didn’t work for him.

I found another article on him and the collective, and there’s this honestly saddening quote:

“A toast to the dead, for children with cancer and AIDS,” Laufer said, raising a glass of bourbon and quoting the hip hop artist Felipe Andres Coronel, better known as Immortal Technique. “A cure exists, and you probably could have been saved.”

It’s even posted up on their page for the MicroLab right at the top.

catch22@programming.dev on 05 Sep 2024 04:07 next collapse

By far one of the most interesting articles I’ve seen on Lemmy so far, thanks for the link

dexa_scantron@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 05:49 collapse

404 Media is doing excellent work; if you like this kind of thing you might want to sign up for their newsletter.

Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 04:10 next collapse

…well, this is a good way to shine the spotlight on a massive problem. I’d be pretty hesitant to take DIY meds unless it was life-critical and my only option (which… lots of don’t have that option, and just die after hitting the health paygate…). The value here is its potential to slap some sense into the US and get our broken-as-fuck healthcare system caught up with the rest of the world so people don’t need moonshine insulin or w/e in the first place.

That this conversation is even taking place is testament to how horrible our current system is.

dharmacurious@slrpnk.net on 05 Sep 2024 04:56 next collapse

My first thought when I saw the headline was “Can it help me pull this tooth without it hurting so badly?”

PotatoSkins@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 07:01 collapse

Honestly… is there a practical reason why something like lidocaine isn’t available to the average consumer?

dharmacurious@slrpnk.net on 05 Sep 2024 07:22 next collapse

I have no idea. I’ve got some lidocaine viscous they gave me for the pain. I’m lucky enough to have medical, just not dental. But from experience, it helps temporarily numb the surface pain, but if it’s in the root, or if you’re pulling the tooth, it does not help.

isolatedscotch@discuss.tchncs.de on 05 Sep 2024 09:02 next collapse

it is, but you need to have some chemistry knowledge to be able to extract it from things like anal lube, and that’s where I think this DIY project will shine

diablexical@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 09:51 next collapse

It is, eg lidocaine patches. It has to be injected to really do much. Not aware of any injectables that are over the counter.

Machinist@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 10:31 collapse

Clove oil. Put a few drops on a cotton ball and put it against the tooth. Your whole mouth will go pretty numb but it will usually kill the pain for a while.

American healthcare sucks.

Wiz@midwest.social on 05 Sep 2024 17:00 collapse

I’ve had relief for gum/tooth pain by just holding a whole clove on the affected area.

BearOfaTime@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 05:26 collapse

What’s broken is largely insurance setting prices.

I don’t see this fixing it.

LordCrom@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 04:37 next collapse

Idk. Medicine is one of those skills where I prefer someone that has studied for 7 years vs me who watches a 15 min how to video and read webmd

ArchRecord@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 04:47 next collapse

Well that’s the coolest part about this, everything is based on the existing research.

The drugs they’re making are the exact same chemical compounds formulated by the drug companies, and contrary to popular belief, the compounds can actually be relatively simple, it’s the process of finding which compound that takes the most money from R&D.

So if you have 2-3 very standard chemicals, with well known reactions and outcomes, and you have the exact blueprint of what the final result should look like, and you can chemically test it afterward to see if it combined as expected, then anyone who has enough reason to use this instead of traditional means (i.e. being priced out of lifesaving medication completely) can be reasonably confident it will work.

krashmo@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 04:51 collapse

Obviously the people who would benefit most from this technology would prefer a doctor and pharmacy to be involved as well. The point is that personal preference doesn’t really mean much when the preferred option is inaccessible and the alternative is death or a dramatically reduced quality of life. You do the best with what you have.

werefreeatlast@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 04:41 next collapse

Nitro Clorox Queen 👑! For your COVID! It’s better than over the counter hydrocloroqueen!

oce@jlai.lu on 05 Sep 2024 06:17 next collapse

He does mention the fact that medicine research is hard and requires money but doesn’t explain how to solve that. This is a big argument of big pharma prices, they say it finances future research. I think a good example is how incredibly fast we got a COVID vaccine. It happened because private investors had massively invested in research platforms and they invested because they are expecting gains.

affiliate@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 06:57 next collapse

that’s not the full story though. according to the NIH, the US government spent over 30 billion dollars on the covid vaccines.

and this is not unique to the covid vaccine. here’s a source with two particularly damning quotes:

“Since the 1930s, the National Institutes of Health has invested close to $900 billion in the basic and applied research that formed both the pharmaceutical and biotechnology sectors.”

and

A 2018 study on the National Institute of Health’s (NIH) financial contributions to new drug approvals found that the agency “contributed to published research associated with every one of the 210 new drugs approved by the Food and Drug Administration from 2010–2016.” More than $100 billion in NIH funding went toward research that contributed directly or indirectly to the 210 drugs approved during that six-year period.

oce@jlai.lu on 05 Sep 2024 08:18 collapse

Ok, so we should be able to control the prices for drugs where the research has been publicly funded. But how do we avoid losing the private investors who contributed?

noli@lemmy.zip on 05 Sep 2024 08:41 next collapse

Medicine still works in europe and is also being developed in europe. Maybe look at how the EU/european countries do it? A lot of it is having regulations. The free market isn’t free if the choice between getting the product or not is the difference between life and death.

oce@jlai.lu on 05 Sep 2024 12:33 collapse

I am from EU, especially one of those countries with free health care. I believe we have a mix of public research, private research (ex: Sanofi, Servier), expensive proprietary drugs and government controlled public domain generic drugs. But there was an alert recently on drug making sovereignty because no company is interested in making those less profitable generic drugs in France, so they are outsourced to cheaper countries and there’s a risk of penury.

affiliate@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 08:45 collapse

well, according to the congressional budget office,

In 2023, federal subsidies for health insurance are estimated to be $1.8 trillion

and this report by research america shows that the private sector spent around $150 billion on “research and development” in 2019.

it’s no secret that the private healthcare industry jacks up the prices of things to increase profits. so, some napkin math makes me think it’s not that far-fetched to think that we can save more than $150 billion in healthcare subsidies if we stop privatized healthcare and dramatically lower the costs of medical care. we could then put that $150 billion back into research, without needing to appease the private sector at all.

dependencyinjection@discuss.tchncs.de on 05 Sep 2024 10:15 next collapse

Isn’t it the case that a lot of the research is funded by governments through universities and then the pharmaceutical companies come in and scoop up the IP and charge crazy prices.

Clasm@ttrpg.network on 05 Sep 2024 12:58 collapse

Not only that, but then they go and blow half of their budget on adverts instead of R&D.

AbsoluteChicagoDog@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 17:50 collapse

How to solve it is simple, our tax dollars already pay for the research, the results are public property

TheBat@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 06:49 next collapse

<img alt="" src="https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/885/645/454.jpg">

flicker@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 14:51 collapse

The New Text Document makes this.

Allero@lemmy.today on 05 Sep 2024 07:05 next collapse

I was first on the fence, but yeah, at the very least, it’s a clear signal to big pharma, and I welcome that move. Also, if this will actually get safe, reliable, and controlled enough, I’d love to have some basic spare parts and make my meds at home. But that would probably require something more complex than Microlab.

Don’t trust your life with this unless you have to. Curious project nonetheless!

JovialMicrobial@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 08:24 collapse

This could be very good for people with orphan diseases(diseases that are rare enough that they aren’t profitable for private companies to research)

Also, having an orphan disease often results in insurance companies denying coverage for everything because they don’t have a policy written up for that specific disease… so there’s no script for the workers to follow. Then your doctor has to argue with them, which can take weeks, in the meantime you have no medication.

Yeah, I’m not mad or anything. I wish I could’ve cooked up my own meds when insurance denied me life giving meds because they’d never heard of my disorder.

Allero@lemmy.today on 05 Sep 2024 08:31 next collapse

True! Hopefully, their tools are able to suggest ways to safely produce those meds, too.

Also, I strongly hope they’ll build something able to accurately verify that processes went through as intended, with the desired product present and no known and harmful or unknown compounds formed. Chemistry is full of surprises, especially organic one…

JovialMicrobial@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 08:56 collapse

That would ideal! Also it’d be good if it didn’t accidentally explode like meth labs tend to. Like you said, chemistry isn’t easy, but if this thing can work it’d make us far less dependent on greedy insurance companies and corrupt pharma companies.

tehbilly@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 05 Sep 2024 11:30 next collapse

Insurance is absolutely, unambiguously, the worst. I had a stress echocardiogram denied by insurance yesterday because they don’t think I need it. A test to try to identify a problem, what’s my alternative? Wait to see if I drop dead? I guess in that sense I don’t need it but c’mon. And I’m on one of the “good” plans.

It seems like “deny everything and we’ll save money on the people that can’t/won’t fight the denial” is actually common practice now.

I hope their actuaries get to experience the bullshit and have time to regret their contributions to human suffering.

hroderic@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 11:52 collapse

I think that is one of the cases where it wouldn’t help. The medical research still needs to happen and it requires experts.

The tools provided by this organization are useful for manufacturing your own medication off of an existing, proven formula.

What we need is for all this research to be government funded, so profitability isn’t what decides whether a disease needs to be researched.

JovialMicrobial@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 12:04 collapse

It would if there’s already a therapeutic medication available(but more research could create a cure, or better therapies).

Usually insurance will deny a medication for these diseases either because the medication currently available is older(no one prescribes that anymore!), or it’s too expensive, or it’s too new/was developed in another country. For example ireland developed a new medication for narcolepsy, but it’s impossible to get in the US, nevermind getting insurance coverage.

I’m on one med that was developed in the 60’s and it’s the only one that actually works. It’s over $300 a month. The other newer one I tried made in the 90’s is over $1000 a month and doesn’t work as well. Insurance tried to deny coverage for both.

The problem with older meds is there’s fewer manufacturers so they can charge whatever they want due to lack of competition. There’s little demand, so the few people who need it are charged out the ass for them since insurance will deny deny deny.

smiletolerantly@awful.systems on 05 Sep 2024 07:52 next collapse

OK, this is only tangentially related but it has been on my mind lately and I need to rant:

I am T1 diabetic. Over the last decade, a LOT has happened to improve my life, especially in regards to no longer needing to check glucose levels with blood, as glucose sensors you wear on your arm have become ubiquitous.

It started with a dedicated device that you needed to hold up to the sensor to get a reading (much nicer than pricking your finger) to that sensor being able to notify the dedicated device of high/low glucose values (yay! Sleep through the night, knowing you’ll be woken up if something is wrong) to the sensor now constantly streaming glucose values to your phone.

Which is fantastic.

In theory.

In practice, there are two companies making these sensors (OK, there’s a couple more, but they suck way more and are much less commonly used).

And both of their closed-source apps suuuuuuuuck. They do the bare minimum and nothing more. (Actually, it’s worse than that. Ask me if you want to know. It’s its own rant.)

Then there’s xdrip+, a FANTASTIC app made by diabetics for diabetics. Instead of just showing you “this is your glucose” and sounding an alarm, once, when it’s required, you can (just off the top of my head): Set an arbitrary amount of alarms with their own behaviors, which can be configured to vary by time of day; show the glucose everywhere (notification, lock screen, home screen,…); mute alarms for a custom time; do not sound an alarm if you’re trending in the correct direction fast enough; do not sound the alarm multiple times if your are jittering around the threshold; notify other people automatically in case of emergency; and roughly 1000 things more. The app is well maintained, and of course open source.

Can you guess what the problem is?

That’s right, manufacturers disapprove of using this app. For the worse one of the two sensors mentioned, the community reverse engineered the communication and it is now working perfectly with the app. For the better sensor, they can’t and won’t due to fear of legal repercussions.

It’s my health. And I need to decide between worse hardware and useless software.

There’s no technical reason for this. I dream of the EU passing a law that requires manufacturers of wearable medical devices to publish the comm protocols and to legitimize use of third party software.

Rant over.

havocpants@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 08:08 next collapse

It’s its own rant

I sympathise with the state of diabetic sensor apps, but can I just say that it makes me so happy when people understand and use correct grammar.

T156@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 08:55 next collapse

. (Actually, it’s worse than that. Ask me if you want to know. It’s its own rant.)

Mind enlightening us? It could be useful to compare against, for those of us who haven’t used those kinds of apps before.

smiletolerantly@awful.systems on 05 Sep 2024 13:29 collapse

Sure!

The two sensors and apps of the same name I’m complaining about are the Freestyle Libre 3 and Dexcom G7. IMO, absolute bare minimum for what is required in an app of this kind is:

  • get the glucose level from the sensor and show it in the app, incl. a history graph (even the old dedicated handhelds did this)
  • play an alarm when that value is below/above a low/high glucose threshold

The Freestyle Libre 3 does this, and absolutely nothing more. They ported the software from their dedicated device to Android and called it a day. Frustratingly, this means that you don’t even get your current glucose in the notification area, or the lockscreen, or anywhere else. You have to open the app. You can set the alarm thresholds arbitrarily, but only get 1 high and 1 low alarm setting. Disabling these means you need to go two levels deep into the settings menu. And you WILL be doing that, constantly. Why? Imagine this: You get woken by an alarm for high glucose. You check the app, and see that you’ve just barely crossed the threshold, but have been hovering below it for the past hour. You take insulin, but of course, that takes time to act. Since sensor measurements are a bit jittery, you can count on the glucose level to dip back below, then back above, below, above,… the threshold for the next 1-2 hours. The app will blare an alarm at the highest volume your phone is capable of every. single. time. Your (and potentially your partner’s) sleep will be interrupted IDK how many times, unless you completely disable the alarm. Be sure to remember switching it back on in the morning, though! :) The fix would be incredibly simple: either allow muting alarms for a set period of time, or don’t play an alarm if it has recently been played and the amplitude of glucose measurements is small.

On the flipside, if you miss an alarm - say you are speaking in a meeting so you swipe away the blaring alarm - you will not be reminded again. My high glucose alert is/was set rather low (150 mg/dl) because that’s the point where it makes sense for me to take additional insulin. If that alarm goes off and you dismiss it, it will not go off again (unless you first dip below, as discussed). Doesn’t matter if two hours later you are at 160 or 380. Sure, it is also my responsibility, I am not denying that. But again, adding this feature would have been hugely helpful and so, so easy to implement.

Let’s take a quick sidebar and talk about hardware. The Freestyle Libre 3 is an AMAZING piece of hardware. It’s incredibly tiny - about two pennies stacked, both in diameter and height. Still, it sticks to your skin very well, and measures and sends your blood glucose to your phone via Bluetooth every minute for two weeks straight before the battery gives out. As if that weren’t enough, it’s also so well-made that in the almost two years I was using it, I did not have a single unit that was defective or ran out of battery in less than the promised two weeks. It’s fantastic.

…but sending glucose info every 60 seconds is also a drain on your phone’s battery, especially if your app isn’t, uh, made well. Take a guess as to where this is going. Ready? Wrong, it’s worse. If I would go to bed with 100% battery, I would wake up with 40% left. I needed to charge my phone 4 times a day. Since switching to the Dexcom G7 (imperfect as it is - we will get to it, I promise), that is back down to once a day.

Apart from draining the battery, the app is also slow, and gets really slow the longer you have it installed. This mainly shows itself in the glucose graph being slower to render over time. Deleting the apps data, i.e. starting fresh, makes everything run reasonably fast again. Over the course of a couple of months, a couple hundreds of megabytes of app data accrues, and the app starts to crawl instead of run.

The next part is pure conjecture on my part, but I am still going to share it. My theory is that every time you open the app, the entire graph history is computed from scratch. That would explain the amount of data <-> slowness relation, and probably at least partially account for the battery drain.

In short: Freestyle Libre 3 (the hardware) is fantastic, Freestyle Libre 3 (the app) does the bare minimum and sucks at it.

You can not use it with xdrip+, except by installing a cracked version of the original which exposes the current glucose level through a webserver on your phone, and an additional app which grabs the values from there and passes them on to xdrip+. This is error-prone and does not exactly help with the battery drain.

On to the Dexcom G7. In the next comment, because apparently there’s a 10k character limit on comments.

smiletolerantly@awful.systems on 05 Sep 2024 13:29 collapse

The app is genuinely better in many ways. It at least allows you to set two thresholds for low/high each, and it does repeat them after a while. At least as far as I remember, it is also better with the “jittering re-triggers alarms” thing. Back when I was using it, you could not mute alarms in advance, but apparently that does work now for up to 6 hours, good on them. BUt this is my rant, so I am ignoring that :D There’s still “nice to have” features missing, for example “if you are trending up, don’t repeat a low glucose warning” and vice versa, but my initial impression was that this might actually work. (The Libre 3 had gotten so bad that I had disabled all alarms permanently for multiple months, so when the G7 came out I immediately switched, but at that point xdrip+ did not support it yet.)

Except - you cannot disable the “very low” alarm, and you can set its threshold no lower than 55 mg/dl. Big deal, I mean, it’s important to be warned, right? Except in many situations, I know more than the app. Imagine this: You are woken at night by your low glucose alarm, and are trending down. These sensors lag by about 15 minutes compared to blood measurements, so even if you drink some juice right now, and KNOW that that will be enough, the “very low” alarm will DEFINITELY still go off. You know, eventually. Maybe in 15 minutes, maybe in 20 or 25. But you will be woken again, and all you can do is try to stay awake until then, or turn your phone off completely (why not just mute the app, you ask? Well, I answer, because the Dexcom G7 app will STOP SHOWING YOU YOUR GLUCOSE LEVELS if you do that, warning you instead that you must let it warn you. It’s great! /s). Of course, turning your phone off means you won’t get any more alarms until you switch it back on in the morning.

Before I end this rant, I need to mention a couple more things. The first is how patronizing Dexcom is towards its customers. Not being able to disable an alarm is one example, but my “favorite” example is this: I had been using their app for a while, and went on holidays abroad. During that trip, my sensor expired (I knew in advance and brought spares). Imagine by AMAZEMENT when I discovered that the app would not let me start a new sensor because my GPS location was not IN MY COUNTRY OF RESIDENCE.

Luckily at this point I discovered that xdrip+ had just released experimental support for the G7, and switched immediately and without problems.

In a similar vein, the app is actually only supported on a handful of devices from the biggest phone companies. There’s a community project from at least the days of the G5 which removes this restriction, and the app does actually run perfectly on basically any phone, you just aren’t allowed to, I guess.

Let’s close this with a look at the hardware. Where Dexcom is moderately ahead of Freestyle in terms of software, they severely lack behind it in hardware. And I get it, this can be hard. They measure every 4 minutes (which is more than enough IMO), and the sensor is a good bit chunkier, yet it only lasts 10 days. Also their adhesive sucks. To this day, you need to put on the giant bandage-patch-thing they include in the box, and even then it’s easy to rip off. They’ve gone through at least 4 adhesive variations, and all of them suck in different ways. But again, I think this is forgivable; the Freestyle Libre 3 is a miracle in terms of hardware, so whatever.

What is NOT forgivable however is making your big-ass, shittily-sticking-to-skin sensor RUBBERIZED and have SHARP, DOWNWARDS POINTING OVERHANGS THAT WILL SNATCH ON EVERY PIECE OF FABRIC IT CAN GET ITS HANDS ON AND RIP OFF IMMEDIATELY.

Why?? Why do this, Dexcom? Why did no one go “actually, only the should-stick-to-skin side of the should-not-stick-to-anything-else thing should be sticky”???

OK, right. But as long as they send spares and make RMAs easy, it should not matter that - WRONG. THEY DON’T. Worse, actually, but for this I have to circle back to the Freestyle.

I mentioned earlier that I had never had a defective unit, and that is true. But once (once) in two years I accidentally ripped one from my arm. I was low on sensors at the time, so I called them. The call went through immediately, and the guy on the end was super apologetic, even though I was also super apologetic for ripping it off and being late with renewing my subscription, hence being low on sensors. He immediately told me they’d be sending two replacements, just in case, free of charge. They arrived the next day. (Actually, they always sent at least two spares with the quarterly delivery, too.)

Back to Dexcom. As mentioned, I started using it very shortly after the G7 came to market. That was a mistake. For the first NINE MONTHS, SIXTY PERCENT OF SENSORS I GOT FROM THEM WERE DEFECTIVE, with 80% of those being dead on arrival, and NOT including s

stratoscaster@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 14:11 next collapse

Jesus Christ that sucks nuts… Hopefully in the future the situation improves. Iirc this technology is still early and companies are incompetent

smiletolerantly@awful.systems on 05 Sep 2024 14:56 collapse

Thanks lol. The thing is, they’re getting away with this. Forcing Freestyle to open their protocol would instantly solve all of those problems, as you could use good hardware with good software, since you’d no longer be locked in.

stratoscaster@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 20:40 collapse

I’m honestly shocked that someone hasn’t gone the black market APK route of analyzing the protocols heuristically and then releasing an APK with those protocols on torrent/deep web. Obviously, that’s insanely more risky and error prone, but you would find out pretty quick if freestyle modified their protocols, and could patch it within a week or two (maybe). I really wish I was more low-level hardware skilled to know better, or even lend a hand.

I just make shitty SaaS software for a living, what do I know lol

Pyotr@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 14:58 next collapse

As a G6 and xdrip user, this absolutely mirrors my experience, and MANY of my frustrations. The fact dexcom’s app won’t give me a delta between current and last reading to understand how quickly im trending? Insanity - and they show no interest in making it better in any way, which really grinds my gears every time I give them money.

akwd169@sh.itjust.works on 05 Sep 2024 15:29 collapse

Wow, the sheer hostility towards customers on display when your guaranteed business for life…

Just because they know diabetics have to use them is not a reason to be a scumbag company wherever possible.

Why is it permitted in our society to walk all over diabetics as if they are second class citizens???

Sounds like they treat you like a cash cow and not a patient in need of medical support, and I’m really sorry for that

RecluseRamble@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 05 Sep 2024 09:21 next collapse

My wife is T1 too and I wholeheartedly agree. The development in that area is outrageously slow and locked down (and then there’s healthcare providers with whom you have to fight tooth and nails to get your ancient pump upgraded - another story and country-specific).

captainlezbian@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 15:26 next collapse

That fucking sucks, and as someone who wears hearing aids it’s very relatable. Hearing aids are an investment that last about 5-10 years. As a teenager I got some demo units, then when I absolutely couldn’t keep them working anymore about a decade later and had the money I upgraded them.

In practical terms this is about 15 years of advancement, and it shows. Gone are the days of molds of your ear, replaced by little domes that rest in the canal. But more relevant to the story, you used to have about a week per battery, and very little tech beyond some computation, volume adjustment, phone mode, etc. To turn them off you’d take out the battery.

My current ones didn’t have options for removable batteries, only rechargeable, nor for if you have Bluetooth. You can control volume on the device and that’s it, the rest is in an app. Now overall this has been better than I thought it would be. Tv gets beamed into my ears, as do phone calls. My batteries never die unexpectedly.

However, I hate that app. Partly it’s having to pull out my personal phone at my desk to turn my ears off (open offices are the root problem but sometimes I just can’t do sound at the moment, a common experience for the hard of hearing). I also dislike how there’s no custom naming for modes (meeting mode is called church mode because hearing aid manufacturers don’t understand that not all deaf people are elderly).

But mostly it’s the damn Bluetooth, that wonderful terrible Bluetooth. There is no “search for new devices” option, it happens automatically when removing from the dock/charger as part of turning on. But worse than that there’s no “forget device” option. And any time a device sends messages to the hearing aids it prioritizes most recent. This is a dangerous combination with apartment living. It’s unlikely to go bad, but for me it did and holy hell it was frustrating to have less control over my medical devices than headphones. I couldn’t wear my hearing aids at home until my audiologist got in contact with the manufacturer and reset the devices because randomly my tv, audiobook, or amplification of my wife’s voice would cut to my neighbors device where they were clearly frustrated because they’d be turning it off and on and I’d be swapping my device in app and it’d get switched back as new device tries talking… It was clear that the designers were too afraid of the users breaking things by having control to allow us to fix things that “just worked” their way into a real problem. And if I weren’t a technologically skilled young woman I probably wouldn’t have been able to sufficiently describe the problem to get it solved

xthexder@l.sw0.com on 05 Sep 2024 22:12 collapse

You just described every problem I’ve ever had with my Bluetooth headphones… I’m just about ready to throw them out because I take meetings constantly, and somehow my headphones are never connected to the right thing…

I hate Bluetooth with a passion, and I’m so sorry you have to deal with that for your hearing aid.

ayyy@sh.itjust.works on 05 Sep 2024 17:14 collapse

Can xdrip control the dispensing of medicine or just do monitoring and alerting?

Quereller@lemmy.one on 05 Sep 2024 09:27 next collapse

Man, I would be so worried about impurities and side reactions. A good example is the recalls of drugs because of nitrosamine contamination. If stuff like this already happens to the experts.

And what is with the whole galenics side? How to make sure the absorption is about right…

ayyy@sh.itjust.works on 05 Sep 2024 17:52 next collapse

If stuff like this already happens to the experts.

Keep in mind that almost all drugs are made in India. There is a huge issue with corporate corruption as well as poverty wages that prevent workers from ever whistleblowing. It’s a disastrous combination. It’s frankly a miracle that things don’t go wrong more often.

The corruption runs so deep that pharmaceutical factories keep exploding and wiping out whole towns every few years.

ArchRecord@lemm.ee on 06 Sep 2024 02:55 collapse

I would be at least a bit worried too, but unfortunately the only reason this exists is because corporations decided to wall off access to producing their drugs legally so they could continue to exploit vulnerable people for profit.

For a lot of the people using this tech, it’s the only way they’ll get life saving medication, and without it, they’ll die. If that’s the kind of gamble they have to make, a possible risk of impurities or negative reactions is better than the considerably less desirable option of death.

2pt_perversion@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 10:02 next collapse

This is super cool and helpful as a resource but I really don’t think people without a chemistry background should be doing anything more than following precise instructions, hopefully with some form of verification test at the end. The idea to have people without a chemistry background use a forked version of askcos and just run with it is a little scary.

The affordable Controlled Lab Reactor for diy is fantastic for helping people follow precise instructions to the letter just all of those instructions should be meticulously vetted by actual chemists and have some safeguard tests at the end where necessary. It seems the founder wants that vision too at the end of the conference just there’s not enough of a community yet to support it.

femtech@midwest.social on 05 Sep 2024 13:40 next collapse

Might be safer for HRT, than having to trust a 3rd party to buy it from if you live in a place that can’t get it thru insurance or Dr.

TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 14:03 next collapse

Yeah… This is a bit sketchy. Pharmaceuticals aren’t just something that an amateur can make by following step by step instructions. Even something as simple as baking a cake requires some basic experience to know when things are going right or wrong.

Even maintaining the calibration on a CLR requires some background experience, let alone building and programming one all on your own. With your actual reactor being as small as a mason jar, it means the margin for error is going to be small as well.

This is neat for people with a background in chemistry, but I don’t really see it as anything but dangerous for the general public. They also are fudging their math a bit to make things seem a lot cheaper. Reagents can be really cheap at bulk prices, but you have to spend the time looking for them, and they aren’t equating the cost of a trained chemist making these medications.

obbeel@lemmy.eco.br on 05 Sep 2024 22:55 collapse

I see drug lords getting into this if it is feasible and it isn’t a good scenario. It would paint them as real saviors and make the situation more unstable.

ArchRecord@lemm.ee on 06 Sep 2024 02:51 collapse

Technically, drug dealers are using the tech (more specifically, other people are using it, then selling the product to the drug dealers, who then sell it to their customers as a ‘service’ included with the drugs)

The thing is, they’re not doing it to make stronger drugs, or for PR purposes. They’re actually adding pre-exposure prophylactics (PrEPs) into their heroin, which then creates the side effect of preventing the contraction of HIV from the needles. (referenced about 1/3rd of the way down this article)

If people are already going to be addicted to these drugs, them not getting HIV from it is just one harm reduction measure that can reduce their risk of serious, permanent illness.

obbeel@lemmy.eco.br on 06 Sep 2024 03:06 collapse

I don’t know about where you live, but here the drug lords owns some territory. And within that territory, they take political actions like closing the nearby churches, for example. I think selling actual medication could serve their purpose very well. They already sell smartphones for a low price to the local people ($15).

captainlezbian@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 13:24 next collapse

This is extremely dangerous and also something I feel must be considered a natural and obvious extension of a right I believe to be fundamental: bodily autonomy.

Would I do this? Probably not, maybe for some medicines, that are easily made administrable from bulk chemicals but likely not. But behind all rights stands bodily autonomy. It is your flesh and not mine. If we don’t want people doing this themselves the lever we should use is easing access to expert made medicines. Desperate people do stupid things.

Also this is cyberpunk as hell and aesthetically I’m so here for it

bane_killgrind@slrpnk.net on 05 Sep 2024 13:52 next collapse

Compounding pharmacies should not be subjected to patents. Then the costs are all local instead of tithes to the corporate clergy.

MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca on 05 Sep 2024 14:28 next collapse

I agree with the idea of bodily autonomy. Above all, someone should have the right to do, or not do, whatever they want with their own person.

Whether that is to listen to doctors advice, buy pharmaceuticals and self-administer as prescribed, or even end your own life, and everything in between.

Quick disclaimer, suicide should still be evaluated by a psychiatric professional, and simply being suicidal shouldn’t necessarily mean that nobody can, or should stop you from committing that act. I’m mostly referring to medically assisted self termination, after the appropriate safeguards, checks, and balances have been cleared. Simply wanting to off yourself without being cleared as having sound mind should be something we, as a society, should address carefully, with the assistance of mental health professionals.

With all that being said: I probably would DIY some pharmaceuticals. Anything that’s an opiate or other restricted substance, definitely not. But if I can buy the ingredients without needing a special permit or license, I definitely would.

UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 14:51 next collapse

This is extremely dangerous and also something I feel must be considered a natural and obvious extension of a right I believe to be fundamental: bodily autonomy.

There is a significant distinction between the right to bodily autonomy and the right to distribute quack medicine. And that’s sort of the rub. As soon as you start marketing your product to third parties under false pretexts, we’re not longer talking about an individual’s right to self. And we get into an even more tangled web when we start talking about health care for children or the elderly, who lack the mental acuity to make informed choices.

Also this is cyberpunk as hell and aesthetically I’m so here for it

Everyone wants to get the military grade Sandevistan drive. Nobody thinks they’re going to succumb to cyberpsychosis.

Fedizen@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 16:48 collapse

I think an off the shelf microlab that can reliably synthesize a particular medicine is something that’s commercially viable, which is probably a safe middle ground here and sort of what they’re proof of concepting.

Rather than putting together a DIY lab like this, a pre-made kit that makes one medication would easily make a ton of meds available. Not just here but all around the world.

I would say the next step would probably be to create a certification process for microlabs categorizing their safety and effectiveness

obbeel@lemmy.eco.br on 05 Sep 2024 22:51 collapse

There was a serious fight against this in the COVID years, saying it was fighting anti-science that was recommending fake medicine to people. How can this model possibly subvert what happened in those years?

Cyberflunk@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 14:08 next collapse

Hope John Green is aware of this. He’s fighting tuberculosis globally!

MerchantsOfMisery@lemmy.ml on 05 Sep 2024 14:10 next collapse

Four Thieves are legit. Controversial but they’re confronting a lot of uncomfortable truths that need to be addressed .

obbeel@lemmy.eco.br on 05 Sep 2024 22:53 collapse

As is typical of Piracy.

[deleted] on 05 Sep 2024 14:33 next collapse

.

phoenixz@lemmy.ca on 05 Sep 2024 14:52 next collapse

Yeah, no.

Your body isn’t a simple laptop where you plug out some broken componi, replace that component, and you’re done. There is a reason why even “simple” nurses go through years of training before being able to call themselves nurses.

If it comes to your body, shits complicated, yo!

Everyone should, must have the right to good quality healthcare, but it can’t be from yourself, by yourself. You need a doctor!

Even those trans humanist types that put magnets and such in their bodies are really on the edge with what will and won’t kill you. Add DIY CRISPR sets, which is just the worst thing I’ve ever heard, and you have arecipe for disaster.

Scolding7300@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 15:45 next collapse

There’s a difference between injecting unknown crispr mutations and replicating known chemical compounds. I would guess the main danger here is the impurity

Crikeste@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 17:01 collapse

I also don’t have faith that people would do it properly. Chemicals are weird and not following instructions or not knowing what you’re doing can lead to disaster.

Scolding7300@lemmy.world on 06 Sep 2024 05:53 collapse

I just hope that at the very least those that try for their own use wouldn’t get penalized for it if they’re desperate enough to try

Crikeste@lemm.ee on 07 Sep 2024 02:47 collapse

I mean, that’s fair. I would just hate to see people seriously hurt themselves because they don’t have access to something. But that brings up a whole new conversation, and it’s just sad that we even have to consider this.

Another aspect that came to mind is: people hurting themselves and ‘putting stress’ on the hospitals. Obviously that’s pretty unrealistic, might be a point someone would argue though.

Veddit@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 17:33 next collapse

There is a difference between knowing which medicines to give someone. And then having that knowledge of which to choose (after seeing a healthcare professional), and then being able to buy (make) any brand of that item.

Eezyville@sh.itjust.works on 05 Sep 2024 22:56 collapse

I have to agree. They really think everyone out there knows enough chemistry and medicine to pull this off. Even meth heads blow their house up occasionally. There is so much that goes into building a safe chemistry lab and you shouldn’t risk it. Hobby chemistry is one thing but you can’t skip school and become a professional just by buying a kit.

flicker@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 15:33 next collapse

I believe every American knows someone whose life is made substantially worse because of a lack of access to healthcare.

I want to set this up and learn to use it. I want to keep it and maintain it and wait. Because I’ll inevitably hear from someone that they can’t afford their life-saving medication.

flicker@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 15:34 next collapse

Oh, also I have an exceedingly rare hereditary disease, so it feels like a certainty I’ll need it for myself someday.

ccdfa@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 16:01 collapse

I know someone whose life is made substantially worse because they have a lack of access to healthcare. They live in Europe and can’t get access to the specialized medicine that they need in the timeframe that they need it in. I’m not saying that socialized medicine is bad—I’m actually all for it—but it needs to be implemented well for it to actually work. This is just my anecdotal evidence to say that just because everyone has access doesn’t automatically mean it’s adequate access.

flicker@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 17:34 collapse

I can’t really comment on the European experience though, so I said American, which I am, and which I am qualified to talk about.

ccdfa@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 18:06 collapse

I’m not European either. I’m also American. I wasn’t contradicting anything you were saying; I agree with it. I was just trying to add to the discussion by suggesting that if we are going to get universal healthcare right in America, we have to consider a lot more than just free access.

EarthShipTechIntern@lemm.ee on 05 Sep 2024 15:52 next collapse

Hail Four Thieves Vinegar Collective!

More DIY, right to repair, open source living.

ayyy@sh.itjust.works on 05 Sep 2024 16:53 collapse

Haha that name is fantastic! It’s a riff on the best selling vinegar that you get at Costco and similar places called “Four Monks” vinegar.

Hugin@lemmy.world on 05 Sep 2024 18:10 collapse

Actually it’s the name for a mix of vinegar, garlic, and herbs that was a home remedy to help prevent the plague.

ayyy@sh.itjust.works on 05 Sep 2024 18:24 collapse

Oh interesting, I guess I had the name attribution backwards!

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_thieves_vinegar