Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 03:11
nextcollapse
Maintainers is a unnecessarily nice word for trolls.
EleventhHour@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 03:30
nextcollapse
Shit-in-the-poolers
independantiste@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 03:59
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He obviously meant the people commenting online, not the maintainers
Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 12:06
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? The maintainers are being banned
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 14:39
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And non-maintainers are trollishly trying to circumvent or reverse the ban.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 03:25
nextcollapse
Absolutely based as fuck as usual.
shoulderoforion@fedia.io
on 24 Oct 03:25
nextcollapse
"Ok, lots of Russian trolls out and about.
It's entirely clear why the change was done, it's not getting reverted, and using multiple random anonymous accounts to try to "grass root" it by Russian troll factories isn't going to change anything.
And FYI for the actual innocent bystanders who aren't troll farm accounts - the "various compliance requirements" are not just a US thing.
If you haven't heard of Russian sanctions yet, you should try to read the news some day. And by "news", I don't mean Russian state-sponsored spam.
As to sending me a revert patch - please use whatever mush you call brains. I'm Finnish. Did you think I'd be supporting Russian aggression? Apparently it's not just lack of real news, it's lack of history knowledge too."
You should approach the same fuck first approach to Israel and the us with what they are doing in Gaza and Lebanon while you are at it. That would show your adherence to standard behaviour in the light of current genocides going on.
Sure Russia is bad so fuck Russia but do you have the balls or boobs to say fuck Israel ?
Not much left at the bottom of that barrel but some world salad with Russian dressing.
xodoh74984@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 03:43
nextcollapse
Yes, fuck Israel and fuck Russia. Not sure why I’m responding to this dumb bait, but here we are. It’s not a straw man argument when both countries are run by literal human feces
Snowflake@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 06:10
nextcollapse
It’s even funnier when we realize Russia is possibly the reason there even is an Israel-Palestine conflict.
Jews fled Russia between 1880 and 1920. While a large majority emigrated to the United States, some turned to Zionism. In 1882, members of Bilu and Hovevei Zion made what came to be known the First Aliyah to Palestine, then a part of the Ottoman Empire.
The Tsarist government sporadically encouraged Jewish emigration. In 1890, it approved the establishment of “The Society for the Support of Jewish Farmers and Artisans in Syria and Palestine”[51] (known as the “Odessa Committee” headed by Leon Pinsker) dedicated to practical aspects in establishing agricultural Jewish settlements in Palestine.
And I’m pretty sure they indirectly triggered the ongoing conflict, where hamas attacked israel in 2023 october.
babybus@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 07:13
nextcollapse
You should approach the same fuck first approach to Israel
Why should they do that in the comments section under a post about Russia?
stonerboner@lemmynsfw.com
on 24 Oct 13:44
collapse
If you think caring about one tragedy means ignoring another, that’s a ‘you’ problem.
People who actually care about human suffering don’t play the ‘whataboutism’ game—because it’s not a contest, it’s a crisis. Your deflection isn’t advocacy; it’s just lazy, performative outrage disguised as moral high ground.
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 04:40
nextcollapse
I’m Finnish. Did you think I’d be supporting Russian aggression? Apparently it’s not just lack of real news, it’s lack of history knowledge too."
Man, it’s like you spend centuries brutalizing all your neighbors, if not outright conquering them and enforcing holocausts, and this is the thanks you get!
gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 13:47
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Putin:
Russian culture is so underappreciated 🥺
No, it is appreciated. Just not in the way you want it to be.
AlexanderESmith@social.alexanderesmith.com
on 24 Oct 05:00
nextcollapse
No. Not fuck Russians as a blanket policy. The Russian government is full of corrupt and evil bastards, but it's certain that most Russians are the same as most other citizens; They just want to go about their business.
I'm in favor of blocking the Russian accounts, they're probably mostly state actors. The ones that aren't actively sabotaging the codebase are unfortunate causalities, but it's better than the alternative.
I’m really sad about this. There is a lot of computer science talent in Russia, and I’m very very upset that It Has Come To This.
But it very clearly has.
AlexanderESmith@social.alexanderesmith.com
on 24 Oct 06:09
nextcollapse
If it makes you feel any better, experience (and a bit of intuition) tells me that this isn't permanent. Though, it is probably only going to end after their government stops fucking up (or collapses... again...). It might be a while :/
Most Russians don’t have easy access to non-state propaganda media outlets. If they only have false information, they can’t be expected to form an educated opinion.
If you haven’t seen it, I recommend taking a look at a recent post from the NYT Magazine about a Russian defector. They also made a 5 part podcast miniseries told from his perspective. NYT recently put old podcast episodes behind the paywall, not sure how to access them elsewhere, but I’ll include a link to reference if you want to look it up.
Until very recently, both Youtube and telegram have been available censorship free. Almost every russian was able to access “non-state propaganda media outlets” in under ~10 seconds on their smartphones.
NYT times is bad source on russia. They routinely whitewash russian crimes. They often leverage russian opposition sources without any critical analysis.
halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 10:16
nextcollapse
YouTube and Telegram are not sources of authoritative or factual information either, if anything they are even less reliable. YouTube alone is probably filled with more hours of misinformation than all news media on the planet.
The fact you’re even suggesting them as some sort of alternative to get reliable info shows you don’t intend to have a real discussion.
You are either ignorant or you have an agenda (or perhaps you don’t want to consider that you were wrong).
You were able to access authoritative russian-langauge “non-state propaganda media outlets” on YT at least as far back as the early 2010s.
TV Rain , a generally well regarding Russian opposition channel opened their YT account on Apr 13, 2010, with the oldest listed video being with some of the first clips appearing in May 2010.
DW on Russian (DW на русском) also started their YT channel in 2010 with clips appearing in the same year.
Telegram did longer to get authoritative sources, but you can get BBC on it. And I am willing to be you good money that the BBC Russian service YT account appeared closer to 2010.
I am sorry but you are wrong and you don’t understand what you are talking about.
So, basically it’s enough to say “Fuck Russia, Fuck Russians” here and it gains you massive support.
Seriously?
First, how does this fuck Russia the state?
Second, what everyday Russians have to do with it? What justifies sneaking in hate messages to a diverse ethnic group with no single ideology?
Saying “Fuck Russians” is about the same as “Fuck Jews” because Israel has done bad things. This is not okay.
babybus@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 07:11
nextcollapse
It’s just people can’t do anything to stop Russia or at least help Ukraine. Although the latter is possible, but it’d require some effort. Writing and upvoting “fuck Russia” on social media is easy and that makes them feel better.
You have no arguments and you are angry because of that. No, I don’t feel anything in particular about it. Maybe you do, you wrote an aggressive comment, you “defended” yourself, you must be very proud!
Are you… proud that you write nonsense that triggers people? Is that what provides you with a sense of pride and accomplishment? Are you trying to humiliate me for your behavior? That’s fucked up, mate.
I’m sorry you feel that way, but I think there’s been a misunderstanding. I’m not trying to feel superior to anyone, I’m just expressing my frustration with how some people seem to be more focused on making empty statements online rather than actually doing something to help. I don’t think one needs to be superior to feel frustrated.
a_wild_mimic_appears@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 24 Oct 07:30
nextcollapse
Well, if your state is breaching international law, deporting children, using artillery to reduce cities to ashes, sending hundreds of thousands of its own citizens to their death and allying itself with fucking north korea to “denazify” a country while swinging its nuclear dick around…
then maybe it’s time to leave the country or accept that people with a russian mail address are persona non grata in the rest of the world. It’s not their first war of aggression, and enough is enough.
fuck russia. fuck russians.
and fuck hospital- and refugee camp bombing zionists btw. (not all jews are zionists!)
As an Armenian I want to hear what you have to say to me, directly, about Azerbaijan which is not sanctioned, is not punished and is treated as a normal country. And by extension Turkey, which has been a NATO member since 3 years after NATO inception, and has only become less genocidal and less Nazi since then!
But since you are using “international law” as something good while it has been successfully used to justify many genocides, I guess I won’t be satisfied by your answer.
a_wild_mimic_appears@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 24 Oct 10:06
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put your strawman argument back where it belongs. Putin and his henchmen belong in front of the IOC, and the russians with their apathetic stance towards their government which enables this garbage behavior need to turn their state around; that is something noone else can do for them.
as long as there is no resistance movement that has strong support in the russian population, i will say “fuck russians” all day long.
Alphane_Moon@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 07:48
nextcollapse
At the very least, a strong majority of russians are supporters of genocidal imperialism, however a solid argument could be made that it’s more like an overwhelming majority.
This holds true across all demographic segments; income, education, age, region, rural vs urban. You may have a situation where the support for genocidal imperialism is a mere majority (e.g. younger cohorts), while others approach an almost absolute majority (older cohorts), but the majority always holds no matter how you slice and dice it.
This is backed by almost all quantitative and qualitative research conducted over past ~35 years. I can share a pretty funny anecdote about how an allegedly opposition minded russian (who gets quoted in the NYT) had to twist his own quantitative findings to present a better picture of russian society.
Even recent qualitative research run by opposition minded russian researchers shows a damning picture among of even allegedly moderate russians (in russian, I can share it).
A strong majority of everyday russian support the extermination of Ukrainian culture and sending everyone who disagrees to a torture camp. And this is not limited to Ukraine, they have a similar attitude to all nations that freed themselves from cancer that was the USSR.
Unfortunately many are ignorant of the nature of russian society or prefer to reject difficult information (it’s just social media hate).
Torvalds is a Finn and he understand these things and he doesn’t have the liberty of shying away from reality.
When compare “Fuck Russians” to “Fuck Jews”; what exactly are you referring to? Russian as in the ethnicity or Russian as in the nationality. This is actually a pretty important point.
dwindling7373@feddit.it
on 24 Oct 08:36
nextcollapse
So what you are saying is we should nuke Russia because they are all cartoonishly evil fanatics of genocide.
The term I used was “genocidal imperialist”. Supporting extermination of Ukrainiain culture, language and identity with the goal of territorial expansion. A belief in ethno-national hierarchy system that sees certain ethnicities/nationalities as inferior and not having the right to self-determination.
Such beliefs have a strong majority support among the russian population (if not overwhelming majority support).
For you these are cartoons for adults. For those who have deal with russian imperialism, it’s reality.
A tangent of sorts; do you think you would be able to guess the number genocides conducted by the russians since just in the last 100 years? Without doing a web search.
You might be able to count the big ones, but I am curious what do you think your chance of guessing correctly would be?
Note: I don’t know the exact number (I can name a list of course). I am just curious what you think about this thought experiment.
To get to a solution, you need to at least recognize the problem. Things like not engaging in historical revisionism. Not rejecting any and all research findings unless they paint russian society in a way that reflects how you want the world to be.
No I don’t think I would. Other than my ignorance about the facts themselves, there’s the issue that I don’t have a precise definition of genocide in mind.
I’d probably have the best chance by saying 0 and hoping the definition of Genocide is so narrow it doesn’t really apply to shit.
And I’d give me a 30% chance.
Tangent asides, I am under no impression that the Russian Oligarchy now, the Zar before, the URRS in between, has excerted power in oppressive way just like any other country has done and stopped doing only in the face of new ways to accrue power.
And because in all those instances, from China, to the USA, to all of Europe, through history, people were pushed and pulled into believing all sort of crazy stuff, such as “the others” being inferior, evil, a threat or all of the above, I doesn’t really tell me much that the polupation that is subjected to a long lasting propaganda apparatus is affected by such propaganda.
I go as far as doubting I would be able to see past it if myself I was born in that situation.
The definition of genocide is an interesting one. I have a DIY definition that may not be listed in the human rights charts, but has what I would argue a rather lucid quality to it.
“Actions against you specifically, your immediate and extended family and your broader ethno-national group that make you wonder if the russians want to destroy you.”
On some level, I do agree with what you’re saying about the role of oppression and propaganda.
But how do you know this is the primary cause? What if it’s a choice the russians want to make?
It’s unfortunately not unheard of for whole nations (i.e. close to or at overwhelming majority support level) to support and engage in genocidal imperialism. Arguably, one would only continue at this path if they have the benefit of people white-washing their actions, no?
The reason I brought up choice earlier is that I do not believe russians are “inherently” genocidal or that they are not capable of change. This would be a ridiculous argument. I do believe that they do want to change, they like being genocidal imperialists.
And they will continue to do so until there is pushback (they get treated like they treat others) and less people buy into their white-washing propaganda.
Framed in this way (assuming a population completely corrupted by propaganda) it becomes a matter of responsibility, not unlike what we already faced in germany.
I believe the proper course of action, in this instance and for posterity alike, is focusing and who is knowingly engaging in propaganda, and not who is being fed a false narrative.
It’s a broad answer and it leaves very little room for proportionate retaliation, but it’s the only approach, I believe, that foster progress and rightfully frame the issue of division and conflict in a tangible cause and effect dialectic.
If we now say, “Russian has let themselves be convinced to behave like monsters, therefore we must tread them as ones”, all future wars can and will be framed in this way. If we focus and the root causes, if we condemn manipulation of information, uneven education as among the greatest, most unacceptable, criminal act, I can see a world where at the very least, if you behave like a monster that’s out of your own “disposition”.
rottingleaf@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 08:37
nextcollapse
This is backed by almost all quantitative and qualitative research conducted over past ~35 years.
I would require some data from a person who likely wouldn’t say the same about countries backing Turkey (and by extension Azerbaijan) and Israel.
I specially provided a selection of lesser know research to avoid the usual arguments about “but how can you do polling in a totalitarian state”.
Turns out, you can. And the findings show that preference falsification (e.g. a russian saying that they support the invasion of Ukraine, when they really don’t) is minor and does not change the real picture; that at the very least a strong majority of russians are genocidal imperialists.
I didn’t say a lot of people don’t support it. But that’d be in parity with a lot of Americans supporting invasion of Iraq or Israel’s crimes. Which makes them similar genocidal imperialists. So genocidal imperialism is normal in your “civilized world”, you are doing it.
That injustice would be responsible, by the way, for a certain percentage of people answering something not because they support the war, but because they hate all those virtue-signaling jerks who support many other wars which go unpunished, with those jerks also residing in states where their political position doesn’t cost them fines or jail. I don’t like hypocrisy as well.
And it’s funny, another guy just talked about “apathetic stance”, and you now talk about “totalitarian state”, and both are used to blame Russians, while they are mutually contradictory. If a state is totalitarian, then any stance taken without a suicide belt (and most taken with it) doesn’t give you any immediate results. And it is.
I’m not going to argue that the majority of neurotypical people will support a war their state starts. If you are from the USA, yours did with much bigger euphoria than Russians in 2022.
This is pretty tired whataboutism w.r.t US and Iraq.
The Iraq equivalent would be American annexing Basra state, banned arabic and forcing everyone to speak with a Texan accent and eat pork chops.
All the while sending Arabic speaker to dungeons and having state TV with goons laughing about how they caught a local Iraq women speaking Arabic and sent her to a dungeon.
What bloody “equivalent”? I’m talking about literal US invasion of Iraq which has killed more Iraqis than Russia has Ukrainians in the same amount of time.
They don’t call it an invasion in your land of the free? Or they really think that was normal and somehow different from 2022-now?
But we can do Iraq for your analogy too. When Saddam invaded Iran with pretty land-grabbing nationalist goals, they’d do a lot of fucked up shit of this kind, and they were supported by the West. Iranians have fought back, and that’s why despite hating the Islamic regime, they have no illusions about the West too.
I want to ask you another thing - do you realize that the mafia group in control of Russia got to the point of no opposition and ability to invade, for example, Ukraine, because from the very beginning it was supported by the West against democratic forces in Russia?
Yeltsin’s coup in 1993 was supported by the West. Oh, yes, his opponents were very scary, some “red-brown” mix of goosestepping neo-Nazis and Stalinists. But there’s one little problem - those obviously unpleasant people would refrain from violence and try to solve the crisis via peaceful means till the very storming of parliament (where they were, ahem, the majority).
Probably half of the Russian elites have emigrated to Western countries by now with their stolen money ; were that process not as welcome from the receiving countries, maybe it wouldn’t be their main goal, and maybe that would have lead to an environment where Russia’s elites can possibly change.
For you, extermination of Ukrainian identity in the occupied territories is OK. For me it’s not.
And at any rate, I don’t buy your “whataboutism” about Iraq. You don’t care about killed Iraqi civilians just you like you don’t care about Ukrainiains killed by Russians.
I want to ask you another thing - do you realize that the mafia group in control of Russia got to the point of no opposition and ability to invade, for example, Ukraine, because from the very beginning it was supported by the West against democratic forces in Russia?
No, I do not believe in russian victimhood narratives.
Talking to many, many Russians on the ground, I certainly don’t see the picture you’re presenting. The absolute majority of Russian youth I know is anti-war and anti-Putin, with only a few exceptions; among older generations there is more support for Putin, but it often boils down to “who else can keep Russia from crumbling in these trying times?” - a flawed argument, but again, not coming from bloodlust or an appetite for war. Maintaining of the war is seen by them as more of a necessity, and victory as a condition to save the country from collapse.
Even the government tries to veil it into “we’re against the Nazi regime of Ukraine, not against Ukrainians”, because Ukrainians are absolutely seen as brotherly people, and the fact they die is tragic to most. The blatant “let’s kill Ukrainian pigs” position is seen as cringe at best, and is likely to call a punch in the face.
Fair point on ethnicity vs nationality, thanks, and I’d like to explore it. Whenever the matter of Russians comes up, people rarely make the distinction. For example, when I commented on ethnic Russians getting more access to their own culture in Latvia thanks to EU intervention and acceptance of Russians as an ethnic minority, people made little distinction between ethnic Russians (including kindergarten kids who just happened to be born to two Russians) and Russian soldiers on the battlefield, ready to conquer the country.
But here, really, it doesn’t alter my point. We shouldn’t say “fuck all Israelis” either, because they too are a diverse group of people with vastly different views - some of them are straight up Arabs, and among the Israeli Jews, opinions on the war vary strongly.
The last two russians that I still speak to are genuinely anti-putin and support Ukraine. Does that mean this is true of all russians or does that mean there something about who I choose to speak to bringing about such a result?
You claim they are “anti-war” and yet you talk about " war is seen by them as more of a necessity". You are either anti-war or you’re not. A strong majority (if not an overwhelming majority) are pro war. You’re defacto whitewashing russian genocidal imperialism.
When it comes down to it, the majority of russians support extermination of Ukrainian culture, language and identity (and torturing everyone who doesn’t agree).
The brotherly people bla bla is just an example of russian supremacists’ thinking. This “brotherly people” pitch clearly does not include self-determination or the right to develop your own culture (and getting rid of settler colonialism). It fails if you bring up something like reparations (even among allegedly liberal minded russians). The “brotherly people” pitch is a ruse for the ignorant and naive.
Don’t fucking lie about “the fact they [Ukrainians] die is tragic to most”. This is really fucking low on your part. The majority of the country (at any reasonable level of sociological segmentation) openly supports genocidal imperialism against Ukraine and other countries. A small minority might be somewhat ambivalent but generally sees it as a fair sacrifice for their comfort.
It’s funny that you bring up russian colonial settlers in Latvia. Even with access to free media, democratic institutions, economic growth, among russians in Latvia support for Russian/Ukrainian victory roughly evenly split (although majority claim to not know which country they support). The Latvian most definitely should be very careful
I’ve never lived in Israel/Palestine and I don’t speak Arabic or Hebrew.
I have lived in Russia for over a decade (I can tell some funny, almost absurdist, encounters with russian racism) and I speak fluent russian. It is reasonable to claim that an overwhelming majority of russians are genocidal imperialists.
And I am not saying they would openly admit to it. But if you know how to ask questions (in russian) in a subtle way, you can see that their worldview is supremacist and aligns with the extermination of the culture of neighbouring nations and forcing them to be become subservient to the russian national identity.
The second URL is in russian. A fascinating read. You should send to one of your anti-war younger russians.
You can easily do a web search confirming from multiple research groups that a strong majority of russians support the invasion of Ukraine and the destruction of its culture. I shared some lesser known research that provides counter arguments to the usual low effort russian whitewashing with respect to sociological research.
No, I’ve put “war as a necessity” group separate from “anti-war”.
Through the virtue of being Russo-Ukrainian (and currently residing in Russia) I constantly speak to people of very wide backgrounds, and I listen to conversations around.
There are people who are generally speaking of exterminating Ukraine, putting Z signs on the vehicles etc., but there aren’t that many of them.
There are some that want to restore “Slavic world”, and many more that talk about “saving Russia”, which is certainly imperialist and serving Putin’s agenda, but not aimed at exterminating Ukrainians per se (and having close Ukrainian roots and many relatives under rocket strikes, I am very sensitive to the narrative of destroying culture or people, my culture and my people, so I notice when it happens).
And there is a majority of people I know, people that are opposed to war, some mildly and mostly out of care for their families, some strongly and coming from something more. Most of them have something to lose, and even those who previously protested now can’t risk that, because regime got way more brutal. They literally don’t know what to do. I don’t know what to do while my close ones are in danger.
Colonial settlers? Latvian Russians are the kids and grandkids of those who moved there back when this was seen as yet another region. These people never chose to be born in Latvia, but so is their home, and they happen to be Russians. People of any ethnicity in any country should have access to their culture; this is one of the basic rights everyone should have. No exceptions.
As you can guess from previous paragraphs, I speak Russian fluently as well, только при этом я здесь живу по сей день и могу оценить, как дела обстоят на самом деле и что думают обычные люди. Местами в регионах это совпадает с зарисовками, опубликованными Медузой, но в целом я вижу больше разговоров и об украинцах, хотя очень часто исподтишка, невзначай, как вот про “украинских ребят” из той же зарисовки. It’s hard to openly protest and voice open dissent, though.
On the sources:
1.Clearly states that the only relevant result is that Russians do indeed hide their dissent, and estimates may be wrong even when asking indirectly, and are certainly skewed with direct answers.
2.Quite an interesting read, though there’s mainly one true and important takeaway: many Russians, especially in the small regions that have always lived a slow life, face inability to protest it openly, end up growing frustrated and escape long discussions of the war. This is commonly known as “getting tired” of it, but there is a deeper level to it.
3.Sources info from article 1 and misinterprets it.
The problem is, the research you provided only confirms that there is an issue of hiding true opinions, without definitively stating wide support. A list method employed not only doesn’t guarantee honest answers (just makes them more likely), it also has plenty of inaccuracies of its own, as it brings about many contentious things people could agree or disagree on.
There’s one thing we have in common - we want this war to end. You, probably for overall peace in the world, me, because my close ones are in danger, hiding from mobilization, living with intermittent electricity, not knowing what tomorrow is gonna bring, and also for global peace, of course. But seeing how it unfolds in Russia, how russophobia channels and feeds into Russian nationalism - something that can easily be weaponized - I really don’t think this is the answer. Russians the people are truly in the hard spot right now, they don’t need someone to tell them to go figure this out, and if there is a way to support any anti-war effort inside Russia, this will go a much longer way than animosity and rejection based on where they happen to be.
And I don’t buy your claim that everyone is “anti-war” and a small minority believes that “war is a necessity”. Your anecdotal experience is not really relevant when we have qualitative, quantitative research and reality (that russian have been directly occupying three nations since the USSR broke up - is this not fucking imperialism).
There are people who are generally speaking of exterminating Ukraine, putting Z signs on the vehicles etc., but there aren’t that many of them.
As I wrote earlier, it’s not only an issue with those who openly express their genocidal imperialism (and there are tens of millions of such adults). It’s also those who doesn’t see a big problem or think it’s a fair sacrifice that works for them. Such people are just as bad and their actions lead to the same outcomes.
“but not aimed at exterminating Ukrainians per se”.
This is just white-washing russian genocidal intent. Your “restore the slavic world” fellows know full well that russia is doing everything possible to exterminate Ukrainian culture (not to mention torturing tens of thousands of civilians and terrorizing millions). They all know it and they all support it.
And there is a majority of people I know, people that are opposed to war. Most of them have something to lose, and even those who previously protested now can’t risk that, because regime got way more brutal. They literally don’t know what to do. I don’t know what to do while my close ones are in danger.
The overwhelming majority supported the annexation of Crimea (80-85%), the occupation of Donbass and the full scale invasion. Same with the 2008 invasion of Georgia. And yet you bring the people you know?
For Latvia to be their home, they would need to learn Latvian language and be part of Latvian culture as opposed to supporting Putin and imperialism more broadly. You can’t call a place your home when your loyalties lie to a regime that wants to destroy the country you allegedly call home.
What an interesting interpretation of the first paper. It pretty clearly states that preference falsification is at around 10% with support for the full scale invasion going from 75% (direct polling) to 65% (list experiment).
“the research you provided only confirms that there is an issue of hiding true opinions, without definitively stating wide support.”
This is complete bullshit that directly contradicts the findings of the paper. The authors even explicitly state that due to their methodology they believe that the true level of support is higher than 65% even when accounting for preference falsification.
List experiments have issues, any methodology does. But when multiple quantitative methodologies and qualitative research show the same findings, you can’t just bring up “plenty of inaccuracies of its own”.
Did we read the same paper? It’s a pretty damning picture of even those who are not aggressively pro-imperialist genocide. I don’t see what getting tired or not getting has to do with anything. They still support the russian army (that send cruise missiles into children’s cancer hospitals) and in principle they are OK with killings and destruction as long as it benefits them.
There’s one thing we have in common - we want this war to end. You, probably for overall peace in the world, me, because my close ones are in danger, and also for global peace, of course. But seeing how it unfolds in Russia, how russophobia channels and feeds into Russian nationalism - something that can easily be weaponized - I really don’t think this is the answer. Russians the people are truly in the hard spot right now, and if we can influence them in a friendly way, we should, because animosity clearly doesn’t help.
This is great example of supremacist russian thinking. It perfect aligns with notion that a strong majority of russians are genocidal imperialist (while not necessarily open stating this).
Let me translate:
“We want to keep 20% of Ukraine [and attack again later], because of “world peace”, we all want “world peace”, right?”
“Show respect to us russians, this is nothing. If you don’t show us respect we will fuck you up!”
“Russians the people are truly in the hard spot right now” - Typical russian victimhood. They are always the victims in any situation!
“and if we can influence them in a friendly way, we should, because animosity clearly doesn’t help” - There is not a single example in recent history of russians doing any type of good faith actions in the geopolitical sphere. On the contrary, a recognition that a strong majority of russians are genocidal imperialists, that they do not believe in human rights (beyond using the concept for
Authors clearly stated that the result can be inaccurate and some percentage of Russians may not answer honestly even under such conditions, and in conclusions, they only ended up confirming some people do seemingly hide their true opinions (although the extent of it may vary as the studied group was not representative of entire Russian population and was taken from Toloka, a place attracting specific demographic not fully representative of general Russian population).
It sure is important to know Latvian language, but for that they already have Latvian language tests for those coming into Latvian citizenship. They can, however, hold any culture they want, while respecting Latvian law and basic customs. Same applies to anyone anywhere, including any minorities of Russia or Ukraine. In any case, trying to erase Russian identity is not the answer, which is obvious to legislators outside the country.
Did I say anything about borders? You literally made this up. When I say I want peace, honestly, I don’t give a single damn where the border will be - where it is now, or where it has originally been, or anything in between. I want for two countries, both of which are my homes, mind you, to stop putting their men in the meat grinder. And I know plenty of people on both sides of the Russo-Ukrainian frontline share my sentiment.
But attacking Russians on the Internet and excluding them from everywhere further radicalizes them, leaves them bitter to the outside world, which can lead them to believe y’all really are the enemies to fight against. By alienating Russians, such people just feed into Putin’s narrative that the world is full of hostiles. This has nothing to do with victimhood or imperialism - this is basic human psychology, and it would work exactly the same anywhere else.
I strongly wish Russian aggression would stop, I care for it with all my heart. Again, my close ones are in fear of an attack as we speak. But I also happen to see the perspective of everyday Russians - something that most of those judging never get to see or even consider, naively thinking that they are the “punishers” for incorrect behavior, and that more of that will lead to a “child” getting to learn good behavior. No - slowly, but surely you simply raise bitterness and become an enemy. And they won’t get themselves to blame, and they will march with their wraith. Not on you. On my people. My grandmother. My uncle. My brother. His wife. I could just never talk about those things, present myself as a Ukrainian (after all, I am one) and go about my life, but too much is at stake for me to stay silent when y’all are doing the stupidest shit you can.
You’re lying about the authors conclusions. They explicitly stated that the support was higher than 65% due to their methodology. And they did clearly state that preference falsification is a mere ~10%. Therefore their research (like any quantitative research on this topic) supports my statement that the majority of russians are genocidal imperialists as they want to conquer Ukraine and destroy Ukrainian identity.
No, they need to learn the Latvian language at a high level if they want to live there. This is basic component of calling a place your home. You have to some loyalty to your country and not support a genocidal enemy. The fact that russian culture is at least on some level defined by genocidal imperialism is not a problem of the Latvians. This is basic stuff.
Ukraine is not your home. You are a russian, no Ukrainian would try to come up with “war is necessity” word salad or your comical “russians the people are truly in the hard spot right now”. So don’t lie!
You don’t care about borders because you don’t care about the ten of thousands of civilians in russian torture dungeons. We also both know that vast majority of russians are not interested in any kind of real peace. Just like in 2014, the goal is to get some breathing room, then attacks and try and get more territory and exterminate Ukrainian culture in the newly occupied territories. This approach is nearly universally known and (silently) supported by a strong majority of russians.
GTFO with your “on my people”. You defend russian imperialism and colonialism and you dare to imply you have some relation to Ukraine?
Victimhood is a defining element of russian culture. Without it there is no russian “culture”. Conspiracy theories blaming foreign countries for any and all ills are extremely prevalent in russian society. This has been true in the past, this is true today and it will be true in the future.
I don’t understand what you mean by your “punisher” sentence. The vast majority russians already blame everyone but themselves for all their problems. You brought up russophobia as an implicit excuse for russian crimes. Russophobia doesn’t really exist. When a society consist of a strong majority of genocidal imperialists that lack empathy, it is reasonable to see that society as a threat and a problem. This is not rocket science.
Have you ever seen a well known russian (outside a few figures like Novodvorskaya) admit that at least part of the problem lies in russian society at large? I think not … because we both know the role of victimhood among russians.
To develop a russia strategy that works, the world needs to understand that russians will never act in good faith, russians will always play the victim and a strong majority of russians are committed and genuine ethno-racial supremacists that lack empathy.
Alienating russians is a red herring. The only way forward is a sober view of russian culture and methods and an understanding that russia only understand force; you have to treat them like they treat others.
Even if that were true (which is not, read the damn conclusions section), this doesn’t support your emotional notion. And as much as I’d like to share such a simple outrage, it’s not helpful.
It would be weird to see all Russians born in Latvia only support Latvian side of things, just as it would be weird to see each and every Latvian born in Russia supporting Russia.
I never said I see war as necessary, I say many of the people that can be defined as pro-war are not for it because they want to see Ukrainians gone. I personally am anti-war and I call for peace through whatever means necessary, because - surprise surprise - I care about people’s lives and you seemingly don’t. It is curently you who calls for brute force solutions.
And you trying to say my ethnicity is not valid is laughable. Oh yeah, gonna be unborn to my Ukrainian father and forget my entire Ukrainian bloodline. Maybe your cultural shock at facing a Ukrainian who doesn’t immediately call to destroy all Russians is your problem? Then go around and maybe talk to some outside political circlejerks.
Russian culture is independent and beautiful, not defined by anything in particular - just as Ukrainian. You trying to minimize it to “victimhood” or even politics more broadly is an insult to everything good the country has produced - and there is plenty.
The perfect scenario I see is peace talks, and then Ukraine joining NATO. There are talks on the NATO side, but they require Ukraine to leave the current war first. I do think this is the best way forward, as Russian security guarantees are proven not to be trusted.
Seeing any national or ethnic group as “inherently dangerous” is nothing but a way to more abuse, and a common justification for imperialist wars, too. There is no such society in Russia, and seeing it this way is an issue of your perception. But regardless, make peace talks and then invite Ukraine to NATO. Problem solved.
This is just one survey you can look multiple other (different provider, different methodologies) and they show the same thing. Bold of you to call me emotional when you’re approach to any and all research (or even history for that matter) is “it’s not valid if it doesn’t show russians in a good light”.
They are not really Latvian if they support Latvia’s enemies, are they? This is not a complex topic, if you don’t support the country, don’t want to learn the language, don’t care for the culture, then you can’t call the country your home.
I say many of the people that can be defined as pro-war are not for it because they want to see Ukrainians gone.
The goal and the outcome of the war and occupation of Ukrainian territories. Preference falsification goes both ways. This is not some sort of secret information; the individuals know full well that Ukrainian are brutally prosecuted in the occupied territories and they support it. That is why they are genocidal imperialists.
Never denied your ethnic background. I said you are not Ukrainian; not all Ukrainians are ethnically Ukrainian (one example would be Crimean Tartars). You don’t speak Ukrainian, you don’t live in Ukraine, you openly white-wash russian genocidal imperialism, you support settler colonialism in the Baltic nations (literally saying the Latvia must tolerate individuals that openly oppose Latvian statehood and want to turn Latvia into an authoritarian hellhole).
I brought up victimhood because revanchism and victimhood are defining features of russian culture. It doesn’t have to be that way, but that is the choice russians make. Going back to my previous post, show me one example where a public figure (not Novodvorskaya or Kasprov) admitted that at least some of russia’s trouble are the cause of russians themselves and they need to take responsibility for their actions. Since you claim that victimhood is not a defining element of russian society/culture, this should be easy.
I am not going to speculate on future developments. One thing I will say is I would never trust any russian who talks about “peace”.
I believe I explicitly stated that I don’t believe that russians are “inherently imperialist”. I do believe that this a choice that they make and that we should treat them as adults.
Earlier in this thread someone (was it you?) claimed that russians have no access independent non-state media. I pointed out that this was false and that every russian with a smartphone has had uncensored access to youtube (until this summer) and that major reliable news agencies have had russian language service on YT since ~2010. The point being is that the broad alignment of a strong majority of russian society with state propaganda is a choice! And russians need to take responsibility for it.
You mentioned helpful. Let me flip this around a bit. How has your approach (“russians are defacto completely innocent and you’re just spreading hate!”) been helpful to your own country?
What has your “opposition” achieved in the past 15 years? I will note that they have largely maintained a chauvinistic posture - e.g. support the annexation of Crimea. How will everyone (Ukrainians? the west?) being “helpful” (as defined by you) impact anything in Russia?
No, I just highlight that the research you provided doesn’t say what you want it to say. And I can’t really find many articles that confirm your notion.
You can call the country your home if you constantly live and/or were born there. Quite straightforward to me. Now, it would certainly be handy to learn the language and familiarize with the culture - which many Latvian Russians do - and it’s a correct turn to make Latvian courses mandatory - but suppressing Russian culture is a step too far, and something that should never be applied to anyone. Luckily, I’m not the only one thinking this way.
I do speak Ukrainian (мова, anyone?), although I must admit that since I’ve spent more time living here in Russia and not everyone even in Ukraine spoke Ukrainian, I do speak Russian better. But same is true for most Eastern Ukrainians anyway.
I don’t white-wash anything, I’m only saying hostility is not a viable option. You, along many others, try to push all blame on everyday Russians - and there could be a grain of truth to that, more could be done a decade ago to make sure this never happens - but what do you want now? What is the proposed course of action, exactly?
When those questions come up, I don’t know the answers. And I desperately wish to have one. One thing I do know is that getting hostile to Russians makes them hostile to you, which gradually shifts the idea of hostile Russians into a self-fulfilling prophecy, boosting Putin’s support. If you didn’t see it, one of the main patriotic tropes of Russia is that the world is full of enemies that hate Russians. Don’t make this true; people do not reason when they are despised, and they will not come to the conclusion that this is meant to stimulate them to do something. By trying to make Russians feel “consequences of their actions”, you really just feed directly into Putin’s propaganda machine and make Russians actually hate you.
No, that wasn’t me, and media can be accessed - at least via VPNs. Not gonna argue on that - and I still insist the support is not as broad as you imagine it to be, although sometimes it looks like some folks do everything in their power to make it true. Also, collective punishment over those in particular who support the war is never a good option at any ratio. This, by the way, has further alienated some of the opposition.
As I said, I do not have strong opinions on Russo-Ukrainian border. If Ukraine retakes Crimea and Donbass, then be it. If Russia captures them, okay. You think the reason I’m talking this is because I take the side of Russia, but I don’t take either side. If Ukraine ends up including Kursk (which was Russian pre-war), and Russia ends up including Luhansk (which was Ukrainian pre-war), and the peace is then brokered, whatever! I have zero loyalty to either country, and see the concept of a country to be imposed and alien, introducing conflicts over nothing that actually matters. I am, however, loyal to people, all people, and naturally sensitive to the struggles of those living on both sides of this very border. And on one side there are people not only suffering from rocket strikes, but also chased and beaten and pushed to go to their death (aka бусифікація), and on the other the country is turning into a war machine, feeding its young men into the grinder as well (aka могилизация). Stop that first, it’s an obvious priority task, isn’t it?
Now, does this approach of hostility make it any closer? If anything, it makes peace further away, it drives people further away. And it’s a big deal.
Maybe being nice to Russians didn’t help them stop Putin. But being hostile to Russians plays straight into Putin’s deck. It looks, however, like retribution for you is the goal in itself, not a measure to actually help anyone, on any side of the frontline.
With that said, I don’t think this is the kind of conversation worth having.
Russians are already hostile to Ukrainians my man. Saying “if you don’t treat us with respect, then we’ll really fuck you up, this is nothing!” is just another facet of russian supremacist and imperialist thinking. As are your justifications of protecting russian settler colonialism in Ukraine or Latvia.
What fucking self-fulfilling prophecy? Russians have been invading Ukraine and working on eradicating Ukrainian identity for a third of independent Ukraine’s history (and that’s just one example, there is also Moldova, Georgia, Chechnya and Belarus). Not to mention all the work russians have done on trying to eliminate Ukrainian identity in the centuries before.
Being nice to russians? How were Ukrainians not nice to russians before 2014? We decided to demonstrate self-determination?
We’ve seen how peace was brokered after 2014. So spare your fake calls for peace. You full well know that peace for most russians is just re-grouping period for another invasion and more mass murder of Ukrainians.
Buying into false allegation that the majority of russians do not want to eradicate Ukrainian identity is not going to bring peace in Ukraine.
The first step for Ukrainian society (and it’s sad that it took so much death and destruction to get there) is recognizing that:
A strong majority of russians are genocidal imperialists. They overwhelming supported the annexation of Crimea. At the very least a strong majority support the full scale invasion and eradication of Ukrainian identity and mass killings/torture of Ukrainians in occupied territories.
Russians are not going to change any time soon. Not because of some “imperialist gene” or something stupid like that, but because of the choices they make (as adults that hold responsibility for their actions).
Poland and the Baltic nations recognized this and successfully took measures to account for this (you can’t invade them and you destroy their culture).
We did not and that is why we are going through this current hell.
I dare say it’s an outcome of being nice to russians before 2014.
sorval_the_eeter@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 07:49
nextcollapse
Russia has said they are going to do asymetrical warfare with the west. So why should we not prepare for what they claim they will do? Russians arent owed anything by us. Not a seat at the table, not a chance to contribute to open source software, not to be listened to. Not rights beyond their borders. It doesnt matter if they are nice. Its not our job and not realistic to expend time and resources to take each individual russian’s personal measure and apply sanctions onesey twosey on the bad ones. If they dont like it they should take it up with their motherland and get it sorted. I think we should immediately shut down all visas of any kind with Russia. The fact that the US is still allowing them to vacation here is absurd.
No one’s owed anything, but it’s in the collective interest to unite - without borders.
Russia is growing reliant on Linux, and it is heavily unlikely they’ll poison their own waters. Now Russian state and companies will just fork it for their needs, leaving mainline kernel worse off.
Russians are a diverse set of people, many of whom (especially relatively young IT crowd) are super not cool with what Russia is doing and have 0 intention to do anything murky in its interest.
And I’m growing tired of people imagining Russians can just come out on the street and end this for good, but somehow don’t want to or something. Any coordination of people is broken and de facto outlawed. Protesters are jailed within about a minute of protesting. People are scared for their families.
All this also ignores the fact that other world forces can have every intention to backdoor and hurt Linux as well, yet Russia in particular is the scapegoat. Linus just made sure Linux is now part of the proclaimed “West”, even though it was never attacked or forced to pick any sides whatsoever, and even Russia the state held absolutely nothing against it.
As per visas - not only would US lose out on a lot of talented folks that could benefit it (and not Russia, mind you!), it’s also too big of a political center. There was an occasion when the US didn’t want to allow in Russian diplomats that were heading for the United Nations HQ. Is that alright in your eyes?
The problem is mainline Linux will now not receive collaboration efforts from Russians, which will influence the speed and course of its development.
Not saying Linux is gonna stall without Russians, but they do have a measurable impact on open-source development and introduce a lot of exotic things into the kernel, which allows it to be used with more devices and accelerates development of alternative technologies.
It’s a lose-lose situation.
Besides, seeing other contributors removed for seemingly nothing but their nationality might disincentivise developers in other countries, too.
azertyfun@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 14:32
collapse
Just factually wrong. Russian maintainers were removed from their positions. They are still allowed to contribute, but they’ll have to get a non-Russian maintainer to sign off on it. This removes “FSB coerces Russian maintainer into signing off on malware” as an attack vector, while having the minimum possible impact on Russian contributors whose code will be checked for correctness like anyone else’s.
With respect to screwing the state, it diminishes the nation’s standing in the world. Tech companies under the government are unable to compete with other tech companies when it comes to promises of supporting Linux properly.
By itself it’s not much but add the sum total of sanctions and you hopefully inflict an obvious contrast in prosperity available through global trade for a well behaved nation versus losing access to all those markets through misbehavior.
If the world doesn’t want to step in with direct force, this is about the only sort of potentially effective measure available. Without force nor economic measures, you are left with shaking your head is disapproval.
Going too far, on the other hand, accelerates the formation of alternative alliances, BRICS being the most prominent, and growth of authoritarian axis.
And on a different angle, Linux always adhered to truly collaborative open source policy, and I’m concerned more about what this decision means to that rather than Russia. If we start excluding maintainers based on nationality, not only we’ll be left without many great people supporting essential programs, we’ll be left with a political division in a sphere where collaboration means everything. Seeing other people being kicked out of something so big (and, for all I’ve heard, even the attributions removed) is not a great motivating tool to invest your time and effort into something that can so easily be taken away from you.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 14:29
collapse
The West tried for years to coddle and include Russia after the USSR collapsed, and look where it got them: a Russian invasion of Georgia and Ukraine, being blanketed with disinformation and having their elections interfered with to install far-right pro-Russians, and living under the constant fear that Russia could turn off their energy supply.
Fuck Russia; it needs to be cut off through every practicable avenue.
It makes it more difficult for Russia to put backdoors into western IT infrastructure
rottingleaf@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 08:35
nextcollapse
Because the ex-Soviet elite layer, one can say, a one big mafia corporation, after USSR’s breakup has taught its ways to Western elites, and Western elites have taught them something too.
Actually in that context Linus’ dad being a Finnish communist who lived in USSR for some time is an interesting additional fact. I even remember reading that in J4F and marveling at his rose-tinted view of USSR there.
These people want to pretend that this didn’t happen and their institutions are not already dying, and that they are very different from Russians.
So they think they can avoid something by hating more on Russians, that must help. It’s like avoiding infected people during a plague, only your crowd is already infected too, it’s too late.
Also when you are more used to something and conscious of it, you have more immunity.
In Russia we have a choice between obvious propaganda, delusions reactive to that propaganda (which are not truth, but humans want to think that the clear opposite of propaganda is the truth), various fuzzy neutral-pessimistic grassroots opinions, and 100 sorts of foreign obvious propaganda. We are also conscious of how much power we as people really have. Even those who volunteer for Ukraine are not doing that due to “lack of real news”, they are doing that due to various kinds of desperation and cynicism, some just being evil.
In any Western country you have the same choice, but due to the common delusion that your kinds of obvious propaganda are not that, you tend to avoid using it. That’s just an earlier stage.
Nah men. You play the victim card. This is still in active use to reason about misdoings by Russians.
First of all whole nations don’t do that, <censored out to remove an insult>.
If in your barn it’s considered that everything said by a person from some nation that can be put under some term specific for it, like “whataboutism” or “victim card”, you’re wrong!
You are simply not a sufficiently civilized person.
You are a failure of your country’s education system and of your parents’ efforts.
My country’s education system worked better because I had to resist it to keep sanity, but I suspect that in key criteria it was the same as yours’, and the reason is that someone misguided you to think that you don’t have to do that.
Don’t compare yourself to Western countries in such a simplified way.
This is a too damn <censored> complex way for you, that’s for sure. I think we do have to simplify things sometimes for our counterparts.
It’s me looking down on you here, not the other way around.
Holy shit, you do realize that “Western countries” is a 90% match with the bunch of nations that unleashed slavery and genocide unprecedented in history on most of the globe, rebuilt their whole societies and economies around robbing colonies, and that still functions in this exact way?
Russia was and is just the lesser sidekick turned problematic.
There has been a transformation, sort of colonialism of Theseus, where colonies that were openly and legally robbed to create that Western way of life (that Westerners consider to be a result of their superior culture and intelligence, ROFL mwahahaha) have gradually morphed into puppet monarchies and dictatorships and theocracies and cleptocracies, the borders of which are decided by the West, the corrupt elites of which all rely on the West for keeping their power, and the legality of which from the West’s viewpoint is directly connected to them creating financial incentives for the West. If you don’t know about this, because you are not interested in African, South American and especially Middle Eastern matters, the problem is with your ignorance.
Especially if you’re Finnish (maybe, from your instance?), Soviet crimes against your country are not comparable to Finnish concentration camps in WWII, <censored> again, you are not deceiving anyone here. I actually thought Russia should cede that chunk of Karelia back to Finland, until I realized that Finns are as dumb as Russians, but with some superiority idea, and also until 2020 dropped and I realized that strategic depth is more important than being nice. With any country, because any supposedly civilized society (like Westerners supporting Azerbaijan against Artsakh) can turn into a bunch of savages.
spoiler
By the way, about comparisons - Armenia was a civilized (by the measure of that time) country long before Swedes civilized Finns, and long before Swedes themselves stopped being savages. Beowulf’s prototype story is approximately dated in the same age as Vardan Mamikonyan fighting against Persians.
Artsakh was part of Armenia (as a country, not as a state) since before then.
By the way, the EU has an elected body of representatives, the European Parliament, which again and again votes in support of Artsakh (and Armenia as a whole) on something, and the European Commission (which is not an elected body) again and again just acts ignoring those. It that fine by you as some Western civilized thing I’m incapable of understanding, or it appears that really important decisions are not left to serfs?
You guys contributed actively to cruelty.
Not anyone from my family, so you can immediately <censored> again, I think you’re going to be sore there.
By the way, my ancestral homeland is Tayq, that’d be part of Western Armenia occupied by NATO member Turkey and recognized by its Western allies as part of it. <Censored> again.
Instead of admitting things you compare yourself to others to denounce them.
That’s called pointing out injustice. When an NKVD man is telling that a Gestapo man is a torturer, that’s right, of course, but the Gestapo man calling the NKVD man a torturer back is just as right. Your argument seems to be that the Gestapo man is torturing someone right now, so we have to get busy with stopping that, and not the NKVD man. But the NKVD man is torturing someone right now, he’s just accusing the Gestapo man of using “the victim card” instead of addressing that.
I realize that your upbringing was lacking, but you could reach the simple conclusion by yourself that if you are on the right side and if you
Yeah, sorry, I get triggered easily, indeed usually based on conditions unconnected to the conversation itself.
Seems like you have to justify your civilization.
No, I extrapolate your comment for you to have something of that kind in your opinions further than what you said. Which happens when …
Guess your day was worse then mine. But that’s obvious.
Y-yeah, I don’t like spending 3 hours in client’s environment via <a lot of words censored out> Zoom with 2-3 second delays (for key presses and mouse movements) and 2 other people discussing life in the same conference in background, and sometimes asking me questions. My day was worse, no doubt about that. Thank you for noticing. LOL
You refer to - not even thin - empty air, so go mind your people business and teach them.
I disagree, but writing such texts is useless in general towards anyone.
Getting back to the subject of the post - 11 people is not too many. Being in aggressive state’s military’s supply chain is common. DARPA and all.
It would be basic decency to send 11 e-mails, and then, after some time, make an announcement (could have been more thoughtful too).
It seems 1 of those 11 people was dropped by mistake, but can’t believe everything posted in the Interwebs.
The rest was thin air, yes. I got triggered by Linus referring to nationalism. Again, sorry for that unhinged text.
Russiana living here sneak benefits by saying they are Ukrainians.
The majority of Russians living here voted for Putin polls have shown.
Some Russians denounce our media and only watch Russian state TV.
So if they can’t adapt after beeing here for decades I tend to believe that the Russian common sense differs immensly from ours.
And therefore I agree with this propaganda: Fuck Russia.
They talk about eachother on the highest level but Russian citizens - here or in Russia - do not form loud critique.
If my Brother was jailed for critique I would apread the word in my circles who would spread the word… WE IN THE WEST WOULD MAKE US HEARD.
Russians benefiting from the lower prices just agree with their government and apparently do not care about their country killing innocent people.
So fuck Russians as well.
Obviously not every Russian is stupid or bad. But if they want to get out of their war, they have to speak up.
This is exactly what they demand from other countries with inner conflicts.
The advice would be relevant a bit ealier, around the Bolotnaya protests.
But now protesting in Russia is nothing short of suicidal. You won’t make yourself heard - much quicker, you’ll be jailed. Police is constantly on duty near main protest venues, and they act brutal. And this fear mentality permeates many even as they leave, afraid they’ll have to return some day.
Right now, it seems like the only thing that would help is a full-scale revolution, but people are passivized enough through decades of oppression that organizing them is near impossible. Everyone is scared as hell to be the one who comes on the street, finds out they are alone and next moment they are taken to police and jailed for years.
Even under those conditions, people did come out to anti-war protests, especially in 2022. Result? Brutal suppression and mass incarceration. So, I hope you can see where this comes from.
Given that Russians where the ones who openly shared lists of serial keys online, I wonder why no attacks onto the black velvet around their information system is not attacked then.
Thinking aloud here…
mizuki@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 24 Oct 14:32
nextcollapse
fuck russians? fuck the Russian government and the people who support it, not all the russians.
a_wild_mimic_appears@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 25 Oct 06:39
nextcollapse
“fuck the overwhelming majority of russians” doesn’t have the same ring to it.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 14:37
nextcollapse
I have no problem with Russians, but I do have a problem with the Russian government, and that makes me suspect Russians due to the chance of the Russian government using its leverage to get them to do what they want. So I understand the move, but I’m saddened that FOSS gets sucked into international politics.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 15:30
collapse
FOSS is inherently political, though, and an international collaboration like Linux is inherently internationally political. Allowing big corporations to influence the direction of the codebase? That’s political. Allowing the free usage and distribution of the software to anybody for any purpose not otherwise afforded by existing copyright law? That’s political. Collaborating with contributors from almost every country on Earth? That’s political. Being headquartered in the United States? Again political. Creating a hierarchy with Linus Torvalds at the top? The definition of politics.
It feels like people only start screaming “that’s politics though!” whenever it becomes political in a way that’s controversial to them – without recognizing how completely pervasive politics are in every single aspect of our lives. The fact we’re even talking on Lemmy right now is political – in all likelihood, we both decided that Reddit’s system of governance was unfair and thought a federated system was somehow more ideal, in this case a platform created by outspoken authcoms. That’s even disregarding the Internet which Lemmy sits on top of, including net neutrality, freedom of speech, the infrastructure connecting different jurisdictions, the way it came about through organizations like DARPA, CERN, the IEEE, and ICANN, etc.
GeneralInterest@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 13:04
collapse
It seems though that Linus didn’t make this decision for political reasons, but instead because he doesn’t want to get in trouble with the US government. He indicated that he was advised by lawyers to do this:
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 13:17
collapse
but instead because he doesn’t want to get in trouble with the US government
I agree that that’s why he made the decision, but you understand how that’s political, right?
GeneralInterest@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 13:23
collapse
He probably isn’t too bothered by the sanctions given his comments about his Finnish nationality being a reason why he opposes Russian aggression. But still, it seems at the moment he’s just trying to follow the law.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 13:26
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I agree, and I mean to say that following the law is a political statement in the same way that him standing up and protesting by not following the law would be a political statement. We’re all political actors; it’s just that the amount of power we have to enact political change varies.
GeneralInterest@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 15:17
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Fair points. I guess I happen to think Linus’s action is fair since I think the sanctioned companies are thought to be supporting Russia’s invasion in some way.
That’s not how words work. Ordinary Russians don’t deserve blanket animosity or praise, yes. However, one can claim disliking Russians wholesale is bigotry, not racism. Words have definitions even if you pretend they don’t so you can virtue signal on the internet.
It’s a statement: Russia as the only country on the world is not allowed to participate to the biggest human collaboration in existence which runs 90% of all computers due to bad state actions.
They should fucking speak up to Putin not Torvalds.
humble_pete_digger@lemm.ee
on 25 Oct 22:00
collapse
Did u speak to Bush when us invaded Iraq and afganistan?
It’s entirely clear why the change was done, it’s not getting reverted, and using multiple random anonymous accounts to try to “grass root” it by Russian troll factories isn’t going to change anything.
And FYI for the actual innocent bystanders who aren’t troll farm accounts - the “various compliance requirements” are not just a US thing.
If you haven’t heard of Russian sanctions yet, you should try to read the news some day. And by “news”, I don’t mean Russian state-sponsored spam.
As to sending me a revert patch - please use whatever mush you call brains. I’m Finnish. Did you think I’d be supporting Russian aggression? Apparently it’s not just lack of real news, it’s lack of history knowledge too.
phoneymouse@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 04:15
nextcollapse
Do China next
MCasq_qsaCJ_234@lemmy.zip
on 24 Oct 04:27
nextcollapse
No changes until China decides to invade Taiwan and the sanctions that Russia currently has begin.
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 04:32
collapse
Yeah, China are being “generic assholes” right now, but not crossing the lines into “serious villain shit” yet, at least for people who aren’t in China.
But if they touch Taiwan, oh hell yeah.
AlexanderESmith@social.alexanderesmith.com
on 24 Oct 04:56
nextcollapse
They round up their own people and either brainwash or straight up murder them. Their government is as corrupt and evil as any other.
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 05:29
collapse
Yes, but it’s their people they’re butchering, so it’s less our problem just yet.
I know, bullshit rules, but still.
rikudou@lemmings.world
on 24 Oct 04:58
nextcollapse
Oh yeah, let’s wait until they start murdering people to maybe take some action.
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 05:30
collapse
Yes.
And when they start murdering people we bring down the wrath of God on them.
That’s the problem with Russia, you have to be nice, up to the point they cross the line, then you turn the doom music on.
We needed to start crushing their balls with a hydraulic press when they took Crimea, this is on us.
I mean, it probably would’ve been ideal then but as usual, America was recovering from/embroiled in the last Conservative disasters (financial crisis, Afghanistan/Iraq.) And Obama had just burned a lot of political capital giving people healthcare.
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 06:47
collapse
W annihilated our foreign policy, destroyed it completely.
And yeah, Obama burned everything on the aca and recovering the economy while fox News had mustard gate and tan suit gate and saluting a guy with a coffee cup gate.
His foreign policy was a mess, but at least he started the pivot away from the middle east back to meaningful places, but we really needed to deal with Russia then.
over oil against Iraq. And that’s a shame. Even back then “the whole west” wasn’t united behind that lie.
China isn’t Iraq.
Iran neither. Iraq was an artificial state. Iran is there in some form for more than 2 millennia. 3?
Russia is in Ukraine. Israel is, with the help of U.S. trying to start a war in “middle east”. Let’s say that China “try for Taiwan”, do you really think that the U.S. can “mobilize” effectively on all these fronts. And would Europe follow U.S.?
Another question would be, let’s say that Trump is the next president: What would that change about your world war 3 fantasies?
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 17:07
collapse
Not much actually.
Because the president only controls the country if they aren’t a complete fucking moron, otherwise it’s like his first term where literally everyone told him to go fuck himself. :)
It helps not being lead by inbred fucktards, as the history of Russia has eminently proven.
Why do you need this much hate? Some of your comments are ignorant and most are reeking of bigotry.
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 01:40
collapse
I have ukrainian friends. I worked with them in 2022.
And I saw the pain in their eyes while Russia was being invaded.
It’s not hate, it’s unbridled rage.
I literally worked on US military drone technology while Ukraine was being invaded, and I can only pray it helped kill Russians. Take this as a point of personal pride as an engineer.
The moment the last Russian has left Ukraine I promise I will resign my anger, even feel compassion, but until then, more Russian blood is only a good thing, it’s the only language they speak.
BTW, I had Russian friends too. I cared for them. But they supported the war, so that’s that.
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 02:21
collapse
Oh, I’ve read dostoevsky and tolstoy, dostoevsky is personally the greatest writer in history and it’s not even close.
And he would watch what’s happening in Ukraine and agree that Russians are complete, worthless morons, it’s basically half of what he wrote. He just saw beauty in the tragedy.
I mean there are chinese spies in europe, which suppress, bully and sometimes even kill chinese journalists who have fleed (?) to europe. And thats not even a conspiracy theory, there were investigative journalists who have uncovered this in several countries.
So I’d say that china is reeealy close to that villain line
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 06:15
collapse
Yeah, I think thats still really brushing the line.
This is a carrot and stick thing, by making Russia an extreme example we can steer them back from the edge.
But we do need to have other sanctions, they’re just being dickholes.
LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 24 Oct 06:08
nextcollapse
It’s really awesome to expel by nationality, even including people who’ve long moved out and immigrated years ago and don’t support the invasion and war waged on Ukraine /s
Honestly fuck Russia ofc, but this goes a bit too far into the grey area between hawkish-reasonable and discriminatory, and on the latter side I’m not sure who and/or what this is meant to help, nor does it seem particularly fair to those individual contributors to keep their code yet remove attribution and mailing list entries.
EDIT: holy shit the bloodlust in the comments here is actually unreal, even on arr slash neoliberal and the politics communities here on lemmy the comments are way more sane.
unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de
on 24 Oct 07:04
nextcollapse
Why are people so fundamentally incapable of nuanced judgement. According to people in this comment section, a human is entirely defined by their country of origin. What is this witch hunt level, toddler IQ thinking. Are people really so desperate to have a “bad guy” that they can blame everything on? This dehumanization of people is wild to me.
Please tell me of this enlightened place you come from where racism and discrimination do not exist. Surely they also are accepting refugees and I need but apply? No?
Everyone but my tribe are _______. Hehe I’m so clever.
Russia: The stupidest meanest most corrupt and lazy loudest voices since The Revolution
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 14:35
nextcollapse
a human is entirely defined by their country of origin
That’s missing a big part of the justification here. When you’re from a given country, that country frequently has a lot of influence over you. You probably have family and other ties in your home country, and those can be used as leverage to get you to do what the state wants. And when your country is in active opposition to a large portion of the free world, it makes a lot of sense for people to be extra cautious in who they deal with, because it’s never clear if that person is being manipulated by their former state.
So excluding someone based on nationality can absolutely make sense as an easy rule of thumb to avoid most of the problems stemming from that state.
Would you agree it’s a good thing to avoid US software as they’ve incorporated secret surveillance into law through letters of national security to private companies?
And by extension, perhaps even shunning US citizens?
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 18:14
collapse
As a US citizen, I care less about where the software comes from, but who hosts that software, so I tend to use FOSS products and services, preferring to self-host where it’s not too annoying.
I don’t think anyone should shun citizens from any country, but we should be wary of trusting citizens from countries where the government has a larger influence. So we should be hesitant to trust people from Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran (and a bunch of others, I’m just listing the official enemies of the US), especially if they still live in those countries. That doesn’t mean we should shun people from those countries (I have an awesome coworker from Iran), just that we should hesitate to put them into influential positions. I have no problem collaborating with people from any of those countries, I just think we should be a little extra careful when there’s a stronger incentive for their government to get involved (and manipulating Linux is attractive for pretty much every government, esp. my own).
rolling_resistance@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 18:38
collapse
I have no problem collaborating with people from any of those countries
we should hesitate to put them into influential positions
“I’m an American, and therefore I’m better”
where the government has a larger influence
We’re literally talking about Linux Foundation making these changes to comply with requirements of your government.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 18:47
collapse
We’re literally talking about Linux Foundation making these changes to comply with requirements of your government.
In leadership, not code. That’s a pretty big difference.
I also think we shouldn’t have people from the NSA, CIA, or FBI as maintainers either, because they have clear conflicts of interest. That said, I think it’s a lot less likely for the US government to extort a maintainer to let bad code through than the Russian government. It’s much more likely for the US government to try to hide bad code in the normal review process, and I’m sure that happens w/ Russian spy agencies as well, but allowing someone in a region that has demonstrated that they’re willing to strong-arm people into doing things that benefits the state (i.e. through threats or even outright force) to hold a maintainer position in a very influential piece of software isn’t a great idea, especially when their government is choosing to be an international pariah.
I have zero problem with Russians contributing code to the kernel, I just think it’s wise to remove Russian citizens from leadership positions to limit the impact of Russian interference in Linux development.
rolling_resistance@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 20:28
collapse
You are talking about hypothetical situations in the organization with around 2694 maintainers. What I find interesting, is that no one in this thread thought it would be good to check if these 11 already contributed something harmful. Instead, it’s just “good, we prevented a bad thing”.
Anyway, your extreme take “ban all Russians because what if” goes much further than what happened in reality (“ban Russians working for companies under sanctions”): …kernel.org/…/860ef93c-229b-4070-8ee6-cb80d1f5133…
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 20:35
collapse
I never said “ban all Russians,” I said we should be more skeptical of allowing Russian citizens to be in leadership positions on projects like the Linux kernel, especially while their government maintains a hostile attitude toward much of the rest of the world, and thus presents a greater risk of knowingly allowing malicious code to get into the tree. That’s it.
Perhaps some Russian citizens can be trusted, idk, I honestly haven’t looked into exactly who the maintainers are (as you mentioned, there are a lot), or where they’re domiciled. I have zero issues with Russian people in general, I just think the current political climate makes it much more difficult to trust Russian citizens on these projects. They can absolutely submit code and it’ll go through the normal review process, they may just be prohibited from holding leadership roles.
rolling_resistance@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 16:50
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Should we exclude people from states actively fueling a genocide?
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 18:16
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That’s completely unrelated to contribution to FOSS. The only way it would be relevant is for software projects that do some kind of filtering, so something like Lemmy might be an area where I’d hesitate to put someone from Israel, Gaza, Russia, or Ukraine into a maintainer/moderator/admin role because they could influence what content is viewed by users in a way that paints their country in a better light.
rolling_resistance@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 18:29
collapse
But someone from the US is fine?
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 18:40
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The US also has some incentives here, but I’d say it’s far less likely to interfere than the ones I mentioned. As long as there’s enough variety (i.e. some people from the EU and other regions), it should be fine.
Because as long as the Russian state exists and can point to their “history” as an empire and use it as an excuse to take over their neighboring countries (like Latvia, the place where I’m from), I won’t be satisfied.
Unfortunately nobody is bombing Moscow yet, so anything that isolates and makes the population more angry and can hopefully topple the government is a good thing in my book
Have you even read the policy? “The people removed from maintainer positions were identified as employed by companies on the US and EU sanctions list. These companies are directly involved in the Russian military complex and therefore are directly complicit in war crimes being committed daily in Ukraine”. Racist? My ass.
unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de
on 25 Oct 08:03
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This is not about the removed maintainers. Its about this comment section.
LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 25 Oct 16:01
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Yeah. Times like this I wonder whether a better world is even really possible, or whether social liberalisation was but a blip on a trajectory of bigotry, antagonism, tribalism and savagery.
Even in harmless contexts, the commodification of national identity as the first and foremost trait of a person even for the purposes of smalltalk or jest always makes me think if perhaps most are far more nationalist than they’d care to admit or even themselves think. It’s a haunting thought.
Russia represent Russian citizens the same way the US represent US citizens. If you’re an US citizen and you think US international actions look bad on you then tough luck. Being a citizen of a specific state comes with its own responsibilities and consequences. If Russian nationals have long moved out of Russia and migrated elsewhere and don’t support anything Russia does, why are they still Russian citizens? If they don’t want to get sanctioned and they’ve long migrated from Russia they should apply for citizenship elsewhere. If they choose to stay Russian citizens that’s on them.
As for nationality vs citizenship. Nationality is too vague of a term because it can mean both citizen of a state and originating from said state. I’m pretty sure in this case the discussion is about people who are Russian citizens, not people who originate from Russia but are no longer associated with them. Using nationality only muddies the discussion.
dwindling7373@feddit.it
on 24 Oct 08:11
nextcollapse
EDIT: Nothing of value down below, just me and someone who only wants to be outraged. Delve deeper of your own accord.
dwindling7373@feddit.it
on 24 Oct 08:27
nextcollapse
Are you under the impression I’m some kind of strategical genius of political negotiation? I have no idea.
My point is that holding everybody responsible for what the specific form of government of the specific country they happened to be born into is a confortable truth to push back on the much more controversial take of all of us being the very same thing.
And to get slightly more practical, it’s asinine to suggest that anybody that disagrees with a government has the means, or the will, or the duty to straight up move to another country (obviously to a flawless country, good luck with that).
I’ll ask differently. Let’s just assume there is a way to make sure there is no overreach of sanctions, but it’s going to cost millions of tax dollars or euros. Would you rather have that money spent on things that are close to you (education, healthcare, infrastructure etc) or would you want that money to be spent identifying which Russians should or shouldn’t be sanctioned?
And to get slightly more practical, it’s asinine to suggest that anybody that disagrees with a government has the means, or the will, or the duty to straight up move to another country (obviously to a flawless country, good luck with that).
I agree, somethings shit just sucks. However, the other person said:
even of people who’ve long moved out and immigrated years ago and don’t support the invasion and war waged on Ukraine
Those people have already had the means, will or duty to move to another country. What’s their excuse for keeping the Russian citizenship?
Those people have already had the means, will or duty to move to another country. What’s their excuse for keeping the Russian citizenship?
There’s plenty of reason, the most likely is that they love their country, their homeland, their city, the network of friends, the memories and they hope, one day, to be able to get back.
Let’s just assume there is a way to make sure there is no overreach of sanctions, but it’s going to cost millions of tax dollars or euros. Would you rather have that money spent on things that are close to you (education, healthcare, infrastructure etc) or would you want that money to be spent identifying which Russians should or shouldn’t be sanctioned?
There’s plenty of reason, the most likely is that they love their country, their homeland, their city, the network of friends, the memories and they hope, one day, to be able to get back.
So it’s literally their decision to keep their citizenship and be sanctioned, but you’re still outraged about it?
Would you still love me if I was a giant moth?
I would definitely hate you less because I really hate trolls.
I’m not a troll but it’s unsurprising you are quick to hate considering your opinions toward mankind.
A country is not their government, their history is not their current posturing, the action of their military is not the expression of their local communities. The idea that since you are attached to a certain place is equivalent to sharing the broad general responsibility of its actions through history is what ultimately fuels shit like, you guessed it, the Russian invasion of Ukrain itself.
I’m not a troll but it’s unsurprising you are quick to hate considering your opinions toward mankind.
You’re literally avoiding answering the hard questions and instead throw up shit like that moth thing. That is standard troll behavior. Just because you want to believe you’re not a troll doesn’t mean you aren’t one. Go on, prove me wrong, do the non-troll thing and actually answer my questions instead of tip-toeing around them.
A country is not their government, their history is not their current posturing, the action of their military is the expression of their local communities.
Technically they are. The country is the governing body set up by the people that make up said country. In the case of Russia that government is corrupted and that government is to the detriment to its own people and now also a detriment to the surrounding countries. I am sympathetic to the struggles of the average Russian, but unlike you I don’t live in la-la land where everyone gets to have and eat their cake. They’ve let their country slip into corruption and ultimately that is on them because we can’t fix that without an even greater conflict. They’ve let their government get corrupted and the actions of that corrupt government has brought sanctions upon them.
And I get that not all of them are to blame, but we get back to the questions you deliberately avoided. Are we not supposed to sanction Russia and let them have their way with Ukraine? If we should sanction Russia and there is a costly way to make sure those sanctions wouldn’t overreach, do you want your tax money to be spent essentially on the well-being of Russians. Even if you know you’re likely to gain little to no benefit from that spending?
I was making what I thought was an obvious equivalence between your realistically impossible to answer question to the impossible question an insecure partner blurts out.
Are you asking what value I give money? What price I put on human lives? If I would give up everything to keep the innocents out of harm?
You see your question is way too broad.
But of fucking course I’d be willing to spend more not to impart sufference in innocent strangers, that’s the point of most things people do daily when it comes to being an ethical being. Would you enjoy saving money if Police would simply arrest everybody in a 2Km range from any murder location and call it a day?
Are you asking what value I give money? What price I put on human lives? If I would give up everything to keep the innocents out of harm?
Then give those maintainers your money to get them out of Russia and help them get a different citizenship so they wouldn’t be affected by the sanctions. If you don’t have that money start a go-fund-me. After-all you said you’d give up everything to keep the innocent out of harm.
My question isn’t about money, it’s about how far you’re willing to inconvenience yourself to help those unfairly treated Russians. The tax thing is just the bare minimum anyone could do because we’re paying taxes anyway. It takes no extra effort on your part, it’s just a question of where your tax money gets spent. Your quality of life drops but at least you know the wrong Russian didn’t get sanctioned. Is that the inconvenience you’re willing to make?
I don’t see you making any inconveniences. I don’t see you making any effort beyond being outraged on the web. But feel free to prove me wrong.
Like I said, you’re not wiling to do anything beyond being outraged on the web. My argument is very simple. We need to do something about the Russian invasion of Ukraine and that something is supposed to be something that is as inconvenient as it can be to Russia, while being as little of an inconvenience to us. Part of that something is broad strokes sanctions. The more specific you want those sanctions to be the more inconvenient it becomes for us. And by doing nothing you’re agreeing with me because you’re not willing to inconvenience yourself for those Russians.
You think I’m being simplistic and dangerous, you’re the one wanting to have your cake and eat it. I understand that there’s a clear trade-off in what you’re demanding and I understand that most people, including you, are not actually willing to take that trade-off. You’re the one being childish and throwing a tantrum because you’re not getting everything you want.
Let me go back to the root of your ever shifting discussion:
Russia represent Russian citizens the same way the US represent US citizens.
Yes and that is not very much.
I’m not sure where and why you started going on about my personal hypocrisy toward the application of santions as the best strategy to counter Russian expansionism or how much it is agreeable as something to apply to the whole of the population.
LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 24 Oct 11:48
nextcollapse
It’s besides the point because with the Linux kernel should be run under a principle akin to net-neutrality where we do not let geopolitics affect it (do you really want Trump’s America to have legal power over it?)
The solution here is simple, just do not kick the maintainers unless they have confirmed ties to the Russian state. It’s not always practical to make sanctions precisely targeted, but in this case it actually is easily so.
Nobody could ever trust .su domains, it’s always been a hive of scum and villainy. No joke, it’s been notorious for scamming and various cyber crime, which is a shame since it’s a great novelty domain.
The worst cyber crime of them all, denying multi-national megacorps of the potential but unlikely revenue of several dollars! 👮
LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 25 Oct 14:50
collapse
And you don’t seem to understand ~~
can we still trust .ru and .su domains?
I wouldn’t, personally. It’s not like Russians cannot obtain non-.ru domains and if anything those anti-war are inclined to do so to avoid scrutiny, especially with anti-putin russian news orgs like e.g. meduza.
Definitely not .su unless you know what you’re doing and what you’re doing is some sketchy shit.
Exactly. ACF has published a list of every single person responsible for the war. Most of them are not sanctioned because they are filthy rich and have already bought themselves passports in various EU countries. Targeting Russian passports does absolutely nothing to them as they can just use another.
Sanctions are to punish the whole country including individuals. Sanctions work because it makes lives of individuals worse so that they have reason to be unhappy and do something against the reasons the sanctions is put on them. It makes it harder for leaders to be accepted, if under their power live gets worse. And if a leader is not accepted by enough of their people, the chances of resistance is bigger. And the countries that have put sanctions on, want exactly that.
This idea ignores how Russia works. Everyone already knows it’s a totalitarian shithole. They just don’t have the means to fight it, so they either lay low and play along, or try to get the fuck out. Sanctions hit the second group, as well as companies that implement them because they’re losing income. In fact, older folk here still grumble at USSR collapse and how effective free reign of capitalism was in the 90s at extracting wealth out of the country.
Even if that idea was to hold any water, straight up blocks are not what you’d need. For example, when I open up a site and I see a block page, the idea that pops into my head is always the same - “what a bunch of assholes…”. I can bypass the block either way, but the difference is that it can say either “blocked by the ministry of truth”, or “blocked because ur russian, haha get rekt”. Given how easy it is to get hit by censorship for innocent things, it’s rather easy to shift the blame, while keeping the business running, by just standing up to the ideas of free speech, like not removing the “celebrating the pride month” logo in that country specifically, like all of them did…
I guess the politicians of the countries having the sanctions in place have still to see and learn how the Russian people react to sanctions. I think many of them only know the Russian culture from some “schoolbooks” if even (like me 😅)
tiredofsametab@fedia.io
on 24 Oct 08:24
nextcollapse
I maintain US citizenship as the only biological child of my parents in case I need to be there for them due to an emergency or, later, end-of-life care. I cannot move them to Japan nor would they want to.
So hypothetically let’s say there’s a project or a job or anything of the sorts that you personally want to do, and that something requires that you’re not an US citizenship. I assume you’d stick with your parents and not get a Japanese citizenship. Would you accept that as the compromise you personally have to make (choosing the wellbeing of your parents over the thing you want to do) or would you complain that you’re being treated unfairly?
I would stick with my parents. I also have other citizenship and Japan would require giving up all citizenship to become a Japanese citizen. I would complain that it is bullshit as I do today about Japan's current citizenship laws.
I also have other citizenship and Japan would require giving up all citizenship to become a Japanese citizen. I would complain that it is bullshit as I do today about Japan’s current citizenship laws.
Okay, but that’s irrelevant. I simply pointed at Japanese citizenship because your brought up Japan. The compromise was between keeping US citizenship to take care of your parents vs renouncing the US citizenship to do the thing you want to do. And you compromised to take care of your parents. That is a decision you would make.
So why are you defending the Russians abroad who have decided to keep their Russian citizenship? They also have a choice between keeping the Russian citizenship and fall under sanctions or renounce their citizenship and not fall under sanctions. It’s their decision to make.
As for Russians within Russia. Sad to say but they’re fucked regardless. I imagine the sanctions preventing them from working on Linux is the least of their problems. And as I pointed out in my other comment, would you be willing to spend your tax dollars to make sure the right Russians get sanctioned instead of spending those tax dollars in a way that would benefit you?
True, but that’s because Linux is kind of in a bind due to this war, but Linux probably benefits more from aligning with the western powers rather than fight for a handful of maintainers. Not that Linus would fight for Russian maintainers.
If they don’t want to get sanctioned and they’ve long migrated from Russia they should apply for citizenship elsewhere
Have you ever thought about doing this yourself? Don’t have to go far to figure that it takes at least 5 years of hard work in most cases, if possible at all. Citizenship unfortunately isn’t something you can acquire or renounce at will. Not without being obscenely rich, that is.
I never said it’s easy. I can understand someone keeping their citizenship out of convenience because the process of obtaining a different citizenship is difficult. However, I wouldn’t call it impossible. Based on my country the most time-consuming part about getting the citizenship is having to actually live here, which is at least 8 years under the residency permit. The language proficiency test and constitution (and citizenship act) examinations take an effort but are not insurmountable if you’re serious about getting a different citizenship. I haven’t gone through the process itself because I’ve never had the need, but based on what the legal requirements are I don’t see how that’s only for the obscenely rich. If you’re permanently settled elsewhere it’s a matter of time and effort.
I think my point still stands. If they have the option to choose a different citizenship and they choose not to, that’s on them. And when it comes to this specific instance I’m assuming some good will on from the rest of Linux maintainers. Hartman said “They can come back in the future if sufficient documentation is provided.” I assume if the Russian maintainers showed that they’ve passed the citizenship examinations and their different citizenship is only a matter of time, then that should be sufficient documentation to get them back on the list.
Is it any 8 years, or continious 8 years? In most places, the requirement is for continious, which is a tough ask. Imagine not being able to leave the country for almost a decade.
And you need a reason to get residence permit. In most cases there are few: living with spouse, reuniting with family, working, studying, or doing business. Of those, only work, study and business are the ones that are realistically achievable.
For work, there’s usually also a requirement for employeer to prove that there are no natives available to fill the role. This is a tough process, which takes a lot of time and no guarantee it’d even get approved. So, not many employees even bother unless you have exceptional skills.
For study, you would have to actually study to avoid expulsion, while somehow earning enough on some part-time remote work to support yourself (or have enough savings to support yourself for years). And then, bachelors is not enough so you must go for PhD. Meanwhile, in both above cases you have to also learn local language. I’m sure there are people who could pull this off, but, again, it’s quite exceptional.
Last is business. Usually the requirement is to invest somewhere in the ranges of $100k to $500k into local economy. That’s not filthy rich, but, for context, for Russian it’d take 3 years of fighting on the frontlines to earn as much, with a wage considered good enough to risk dying for… And then the country can still deny you permit without any reason.
It’s because of this, most people I know, who chose to leave the country keep their passports and either settle in Armenia and Georgia with 182/365 days renewable visa-free entry, or run circles between Serbia-Montenegro or Thailand-Vietnam.
There are also interesting opportunities with digital nomad visas, but, again, the requirements out of reach for most.
But for oligarchs, this is pennies. They can buy a few outright, then fly private jet to the US as tourists with pregnant wives, get children born there, then send them to study in London. Apply for family reunifications, bam, theyre now citizens of US and UK, in addition to all previous ones.
I assume if the Russian maintainers showed that they’ve passed the citizenship examinations and their different citizenship is only a matter of time
It’s the other way around. You have to live for X years to be eligible for the test. Given a common requirement of 5 years, they would have to have started this process 2 years before the war broke out.
LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 24 Oct 11:45
collapse
Russia represent Russian citizens the same way the US represent US citizens.
Lolwut. Russia isn’t even a democracy.
If you’re an US citizen and you think US international actions look bad on you then tough luck.
You really think Joe Schmoe Ignoramus from Shaboygan, Wisconsin just trying to buy gas is to be held responsible for the civilian deaths in Palestine? War in Iraq? Unhinged.
Being a citizen of a specific state comes with its own responsibilities and consequences.
No, because being a citizen of a state is not a choice. You are born where you’re born.
If Russian nationals have long moved out of Russia and migrated elsewhere and don’t support anything Russia does, why are they still Russian citizens?
Because they may have family (e.g. elderly parents that require care) there and prospects of being able to visit otherwise aren’t great.
If they choose to stay Russian citizens that’s on them.
But that’s besides the fact actually getting a citizenship in another country is very very difficult. I’ve been in the UK for like 15 years, since 10 or so years old, and only just barely eligible now, gonna take another 2 years if not more to go through the process.
Your entire comment is “Tell me you’re a westerner without the least bit of awareness of how immigration works without telling me.” basically, living happily with a golden US passport or in the Schengen, not how it works for the majority of the world, or there’d be no one left in the global south.
Nationality is too vague of a term because it can mean both citizen of a state and originating from said state.
No it really can’t.
Nationality is the legal status of belonging to a particular nation, defined as a group of people organized in one country, under one legal jurisdiction, or as a group of people who are united on the basis of culture.
In international law, nationality is a legal identification establishing the person as a subject, a national, of a sovereign state. It affords the state jurisdiction over the person and affords the person the protection of the state against other states.
Oh boy. I’ll respond only once and if you throw another wall of text I’m just fucking off.
Lolwut. Russia isn’t even a democracy.
Officially it is. I know in practice it isn’t but the only ones who realistically can turn it into an actual democracy are Russian people. I don’t think we should give them an exception just because their country has gone to shit.
You really think Joe Schmoe Ignoramus from Shaboygan, Wisconsin just trying to buy gas is to be held responsible for the civilian deaths in Palestine? War in Iraq? Unhinged.
Directly responsible? No. Indirectly? Yes. It’s like people have no fucking clue what a country is. It doesn’t just prop up out of nowhere. Someone somewhere defined a country and when it comes to democracies (even dysfunctional ones like Russia and the US) the people set up the country for themselves. It’s their country and whether they like it or not, they are collectively responsible for what their country does. If they’re not responsible then who is responsible for the US supporting Israel? The politicians? Who votes the politicians in power? The people. The Lobbyists? The lobbyists lobby to politicians and the politicians get chosen by the people. The masses being stupid and easy to manipulate is a different topic, but it doesn’t change that despite collectively making bad decisions the people are making those decisions.
No, because being a citizen of a state is not a choice.
It literally is. If it wasn’t a choice you couldn’t choose to become a citizen of a different state. Your initial citizenship isn’t a choice because you’re born with it but you’re also born with your initial sex, doesn’t mean you can’t choose a different sex as you grow older.
Because they may have family there and prospects of being able to visit otherwise aren’t great.
And that’s their decision to keep their citizenship. Just like it would be my decision if I chose to have a diarrhea takeaway today. Or should I blame my diarrhea on you?
But that’s besides the fact actually getting a citizenship in another country is very very difficult. I’ve been in the UK for like 15 years, since 10 or so years old, and only just barely eligible.
I can’t believe I took the effort to look up how UK citizenship works but if you’re only barely eligible after 15 years you are clearly leaving out some key information. The “don’t be poor” part of ILR is kinda stupid so if it’s that I get it, but beyond that you shouldn’t be barely eligible unless you’ve sloppy with your visa’s or have been regularly traveling in and out of the UK.
And my point is that while getting a citizenship can be difficult, it is not impossible.
No it really doesn’t.
It clearly was vague considering how many other comments are mixing up someone being born in Russia or having Russian heritage with someone actually being Russian. And to point to the exact same wiki page:
As such nationality in international law can be called and understood as citizenship,[35] or more generally as subject or belonging to a sovereign state, and not as ethnicity.
LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 25 Oct 15:47
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responds with wall of text
“if you throw another wall of text I’m just fucking off.”
Cute.
I know in practice it isn’t but the only ones who realistically can turn it into an actual democracy are Russian people.
Don’t hold your breath. Russians are absolutely scared into submission and honestly they’re not wrong to be scared. Political prisoners don’t have any real human rights nor do their families. In a country where the average person can barely scrounge for a car, a well-funded, organized resistance is unlikely to accomplish anything so complex and significant as a revolution towards democracy on their own.
That said, it’s not like there isn’t anything at all being done:
Protests against Putin have been going on for a long-time, but Navalny’s death has slowed things down somewhat. More openly acts of anti-government terrorism and openly fighting for Ukraine have been happening also:
These are far braver people than I, god bless and godspeed to them. But also, not something you can expect the average Joe Schmoe to be.
I don’t think we should give them an exception just because their country has gone to shit.
It’s not an exception, it’s the rule. People and governments are almost entirely separate. State is an oppressor of the people that exists to benefit the top 1% and corporations, more often than not it acts in complete opposition to the interests of the people and they have no power to change it, whether it’s outright a military dictatorship, one-party rule (China), practical one-party rule (Japan), two-party system (US), practical two-party system (UK) or otherwise.
It literally is. If it wasn’t a choice you couldn’t choose to become a citizen of a different state.
You can’t choose, you can try to become one but for 99% of people it’s not possible. You are in total ignorance of the realities of immigration. My parents were no oligarchs, but they were definitely really well-off, and if not for that I’d never have immigrated.
Not to mention:
Your initial citizenship isn’t a choice
doesn’t mean you can’t choose a different sex as you grow older.
Yeah, but it also is a helluva undertaking. Transitioning fully takes 10+ years easily in practice and either being very lucky and living in a country with nationalised healthcare and having the patience of a saint to not only wait the eternal waitlists but also fight through both the incompetence, the lack of understanding and outright malice or have tens of thousands of dollars burning a hole in your pocket.
It’s actually why people don’t actually choose to do it. It’s a hassle. In practice, you need to be motivated by something very hardcore, like a disorder that causes ever-present severe mental pain for instance - like Gender Dysphoria - to be able to see it through.
I started 9 years ago, and only just had SRS a few months back, and I still have all the legal shit ahead of me too. There are ways I could’ve optimized it, but hindsight is 20/20, and after countless nights wondering if I could’ve done it earlier and faster, the answer is yes, but only slightly so, or if I was simply orders of magnitude more rich, and not a semi-broke uni student for most of it.
When it comes to immigrating from somewhere like Russia to somewhere like the US or UK, even on top of the 10 years and enormous amounts of luck, talent and constant effort (education, job searching is 10x harder) the monetary figure gets up to hundreds of thousands of dollars easily.
Or should I blame my diarrhea on you?
No, but you should be a pragmatist and understand that it’s not realistic to suggest people never get takeaway at all, because it’s for instance - unhealthy - which is true in many cases.
People smoke, do drugs, drink alcohol and eat sugary foods despite all that, and self-control is kind of a myth, it has a lot more to do with one’s circumstances than oneself. E.g. for someone who’s only source of happiness in a dreary day is a bottle of a beer, it’s gonna be a lot harder to stop than for someone who didn’t care that much for it in the first place because they’re rich and t
freeman@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 07:50
nextcollapse
It’s disappointing behavior by Linus. It’s understandable that sanctions could force the removal of people just for being Russia.
His reply however shows he personally is in favor of removing people just for being Russian.
I wonder if any of the people who pressured him to take some time off for being a “jerk” will give a shit for this response.
RobotToaster@mander.xyz
on 24 Oct 10:11
nextcollapse
keep their code yet remove attribution
Isn’t that a violation of the GPL?
AFC1886VCC@reddthat.com
on 24 Oct 13:00
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You sound surprised. Lemmy.world is the biggest propaganda instance on Lemmy but they’ll tell you it isn’t and it’s only propaganda when the other guys do it.
Have you ever wondered if a russian can get a non .ru domain, and still collaborate? .ru and .su tlds are directly controlled by the Russian state
rolling_resistance@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 16:46
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One of the mainrainers had a gmail.
LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 25 Oct 14:51
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Yeah for sure. If that’s the basis then just block those domains. Unless I misunderstood, which is totally possible, it doesn’t seem like that’s the entire extent of the block.
workerONE@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 06:09
nextcollapse
I thought it said expulsion of Russian Mountaineers so that was pretty confusing
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 17:47
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It’s really such a shame that the mountaineers always take so much credit when the Linux sherpas do so much of the work.
The central project of open-source community closes doors to people based on nationality, and everyone is cheering…
Why? You seriously miss the implications of breaking the very basic principles of open source? You are ready to forgive literally anything if it is claimed to target Russia or Russians in any way?
For those of you who say about backdoors:
US is known to create the most complicated spy networks with myriads of backdoors. Where are the bans of the US maintainers?
Israel is a literal powerhouse of state-sanctioned spying software - Pegasus, as well as many less renowned programs, was created here. Any bans, anyone?
China is known for invasive software. Maybe ban them all too?
The only reasonable way to avoid backdoors is to meticulously check the submitted code. Threat actors can be anywhere - and Russia is not some unique threat location, nor was it banned with that justification - just “compliance requirements”.
This is politics permeating the sacred place we all had. This is a giant threat to the community, and the way Linus framed it in his message is even more terrifying. This was never meant to happen.
unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de
on 24 Oct 07:10
nextcollapse
Torvalds responses make clear he has spent too much time with the wrong people. Calling everyone paid actors is such an embarrassment to his own intelligence. When the linux kernel starts falling behind because of a lack of competent maintainers after banning any country that NATO isnt friends with, we will know that this is where it started and that people cheered.
No, I just say that writing down any disagreement to the evil intentions of someone in power is extremely counterproductive.
There is plenty of people who are in sincere disagreement over this decision, and Linus just tries to silence them. This ain’t alright and leads to direct abuse of power.
This is literally a chapter of an authoritarian playbook.
FangedWyvern42@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 08:30
nextcollapse
I’m actually shocked by how people are acting about this.
You see, it’s actually a really bad thing to ban devs from an open source project based on nationality over all else. “Oh, but they are state actors!!!” How do you know? Because they are Russian?
Exactly! Being Russian doesn’t mean having any political affiliation.
Moreover, even Russia the state is adopting Linux and is greatly disinterested in messing it up. If anything, this could really be the attack on Linux-reliant Russian infrastructure, but even then it most likely will be a reason for a fork, no more, no less.
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 15:44
nextcollapse
OK, this is bs.
They’re not banning devs, they’re banning maintainers.
Russians can submit as many patches as they like for review, they just can’t sign off on their commits themselves.
I’m not. Ever since the war, every single closet xenophobe of the west has been taking full advantage of finally having an acceptable group of subhumans to hate. If any of this surprises you, you haven’t been paying attention.
GeneralInterest@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 15:39
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It seems they’re not being removed because they’re Russian, but instead because they work for specific companies who are subject to US sanctions:
The only reasonable way to avoid backdoors is to meticulously check the submitted code.
Which is the job of maintainers. Which now aren’t Russian, any more. To the best of my knowledge the kernel is still accepting code from Russian citizens, ultimately not having Russians in maintainer roles isn’t going to stop the FSB from infiltrating the kernel but it certainly does make it harder.
This also isn’t in any way a judgement on the removed people, it’s just that it so happens that if you’re a Russian citizen you’re quite vulnerable to wrench attacks. You could even say that the kernel org is protecting them from being used like that.
“Protective restrictions” is a code for discrimination. Or would you argue that not allowing, idk, women to vote is a good measure for protecting them against being violently coerced to vote one way or another?
(this is a random example, just a small mark so I wouldn’t be eaten alive)
hitwright@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 13:18
nextcollapse
Open source IP laws operate under the jurisdiction of the citizen’s country. What kind of principles do you think open source represents? Because if it’s about free movement of information and global collaboration, I’m pretty sure that pirates are the group that better represents those values
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 14:29
nextcollapse
breaking the very basic principles of open source?
No, the basic principles of open source are either the four freedoms (if you agree w/ Stallman) or the OSI open source definition. Here are Stallman’s four freedoms:
The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0).
The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help others (freedom 2).
The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
Russians still have these freedoms WRT the Linux kernel. They can still run, study, and redistribute modified versions of the Linux kernel. There’s no violation here.
No part of the definitions of open source or free software obligate a maintainer to work with anyone else, the only obligations are to the legal freedom of the code. Russians can still use, modify, and redistribute the software, they just aren’t allowed to have maintainer positions within the Linux foundation. They can still submit code, and it’s up to the maintainers if they choose to look at that code.
That said, I’m sad that it has come to this. I hate the idea of international politics interfering w/ FOSS, but I still maintain that it’s 100% fine for Linus Torvalds (and his legal counsel) to make this call. So I agree with the core of your argument, that politics interfering w/ FOSS is bad, but I disagree that it violates any part of the basic concept of FOSS, FOSS maintainers should always be able to decide who they work with, and the rest of the community gets to decide if they’re okay with that or if they’d rather follow someone else’s fork.
Fair on your part, I might’ve gone too far with my argument.
I was talking more about collaborative nature and what happens to it when the major open-surce project decides to gatekeep based on something highly arbitrary.
Linux is long past a simple hobby project, and it should be managed responsibly and with respect to the people that make this all happen.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 25 Oct 16:03
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Sure, the roots of FOSS came from collaboration, with people sharing code between universities and whatnot. But the process has always been “here are my changes, take them if you like.” So even the term “collaboration” is a bit of a stretch, since it was almost always a bunch of solo efforts and people would pull in the changes they like. The idea of any kind of structure to FOSS development was added later to help organize it, but the foundation was always someone working on a thing and then advertising those changes for others to pull, if they wanted.
A collaborative project would work something like Python where a core team decides which features to add (i.e. PEPs), and people on the dev team or the community at large would develop those features, and any development that’s not part of those approved features tend to be rejected until it goes through the review process.
Linux isn’t particularly collaborative in that sense, it’s more like the old-school FOSS development process where individual developers would build a thing, use it themselves, and then submit their changes for upstream consideration. I worked on a team where we maintained our own kernel patches separate from upstream for years before trying to submit them upstream, and every time we’d upgrade the kernel, we’d have to reapply the patches, occasionally fixing some things that had changed. The network of maintainers is largely a convenience for working in this more chaotic model, where maintainers are responsible for reviewing and passing along changes for a certain area of the kernel, they don’t actually guide development in any meaningful way.
So the main change here is that Russian contributors can still contribute, they just aren’t trusted as inner-circle reviewers. It’s still collaborative in the same sense that it has always been, there’s just a bit more scrutiny over which reviews to trust.
in today’s political landscape: genocide is acceptable and ignorable; progressives are dirty commies that you should ignore at all costs; and being russian is enough to get you kicked out of contributions to FOSS and all this comes from people who call themselves “liberal”.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 09:21
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A lemmy.ml user criticising others for supposedly believing genocide is acceptable. Remarkable.
Russia is committing a genocide in Ukraine.
Some sanctioned Russian companies can no longer have maintainers in the kernel. Boo fucking hoo.
And kicked out of all FOSS contributions? Why are you lying? Russians can still contribute.
Maiznieks@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 05:20
nextcollapse
Russians can still contribute code, don’t bundle those together just to have something to list. You are correct about pegasus, but this is about kernel and rights to commit without review.
Eyck_of_denesle@lemmy.zip
on 25 Oct 05:22
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The comment right above you is fantasising about how America will have to disarm russia and execute the army and install a puppet government. It’s not that people don’t care about America, it’s that they cheer for it’s crimes.
FangedWyvern42@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 08:25
nextcollapse
How is this keeping to open source philosophies in any way?
“No, you can’t work on this, you’re Russian.”
I don’t support the Russian Government or its actions in any way, but these devs are probably not part of it. They maintain drivers for fucking ASUS hardware.
Because there are both US and EU laws preventing code from countries deemed a threat. Torvalds is paid by the Ameircan Linux Foundation, which has to work under US law and he himself is an EU citizen. Also a lot of other developers are from those countries and if they do not comply, they could get into some pretty bad legal trouble.
So it pretty much boils down to kick out the Russians or kick out all US and EU citizens and well we see Linus choice.
I think people didn’t understand that I am joking 😅
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 19:02
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Yeah, wasn’t sure because RISC-V is showing up in commercial products now, so you could absolutely be referring to an actual paid job.
GamingChairModel@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 12:38
nextcollapse
That’s the start, of course. One could always play good cop, bad cop: “I have to do this to comply with the law, sorry, there’s nothing else I can do.” What Linus has done here is play bad cop, bad cop: “the law says I have to obey sanctions, and by the way I support the sanctions and this move anyway.”
Do you also know Finland is next to russia and it does not have to be US influence for someone like Linus to know Russian gov can pressure developers? This change removes code commit not the contribution rights.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 14:20
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This has nothing to do with open source. If Russians want to work on the Linux kernel, they’re absolutely free to do so, because the source code is free and open source. What they are being restricted from is getting their changes submitted to the normal Linux foundation trees. FOSS doesn’t mean you’re entitled to have the maintainer of a project look at your patches, it means you can use the software however you want.
And yeah, it makes me sad that Russian kernel maintainers are being excluded. That doesn’t mean it’s a violation of open source philosophies (a maintainer can exclude anyone they want for any reason), it just means it’s an unfortunate policy due to international sanctions.
I actually just emailed RMS about this and I’m genuinely curious what he says. If anyone else is interested, I’ll ask if he’s fine with me sharing some of the response.
My opinion on this whole topic: I don’t like the decision, a Free Software project should only prevent people from contributing in very rare occasions (e.g. having actively tried to sabotage the project). I don’t think this was the case, because I presume that the Linux Foundation was forced by the U.S. government to kick the maintainers out. The should’ve also communicated more clearly to prevent the confusion. (Russian trolls will cry out no matter how they phrased that.)
Edit: Depending on their power as a maintainer, they might be hired by intelligence and forced to just wave a backdoor through. With the Russian government waging a hybrid war against the U.S. and Europe, this poses a real problem.
Another Edit: @Allero@lemmy.today mentioned that apart from Russia, the U.S., Israel and China also have a very well funded intelligence service. So banning Russian maintainers because of a potential backdoor when there are American maintainers (which could be agents) as well? I don’t think it makes sense, but unfortunately the Linux Foundation won’t be able to resist the “complience requirements”.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 28 Oct 07:35
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Just what we need. The opinions of someone who thinks having sex with children is a good thing.
He never said that. I agree he was more skeptical than I’d like, but he eventually was informed and apologized.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 29 Oct 08:33
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You are mistaken:
“The nominee is quoted as saying that if the choice of a sexual partner were protected by the Constitution, ‘prostitution, adultery, necrophilia, bestiality, possession of child pornography, and even incest and pedophilia’ also would be. He is probably mistaken, legally–but that is unfortunate. All of these acts should be legal as long as no one is coerced. They are illegal only because of prejudice and narrowmindedness.”
RMS on June 28th, 2003
"I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren’t voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing. "
RMS on June 5th, 2006
"There is little evidence to justify the widespread assumption that willing participation in pedophilia hurts children.
None of those say it is good. I disagree with him, he also disagrees with him and apologized for saying that. But that is very different from saying its good. I don’t think alcohol is good, I also don’t think it should be illegal.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 29 Oct 13:12
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None of those say it is good
Huh?
He said it’s a shame that paedophilia is outlawed and that it was narrow-mindedness that made it so.
He said it’s untrue that having sex with children harms them.
And yeah, he later apologised and said he doesn’t believe it anymore… 2 days after his job became on the line.
Ask yourself this:
A man has been publicly championing raping children for decades. Publicly. He firmly believes he should have the right to fuck children.
News media hears about this, and now his job seems untenable.
All of a sudden, the man claimed changed his mind, that he’s completely reversed his opinion (that he held for decades and publicly shouted to the world). In just 2 days, he’s gone from thinking it’s a tragedy that you can’t fuck children, to thinking fucking a child is bad.
Do you believe him? Or do you think he’s just saying anything he can to try to keep his job?
I don’t think alcohol is good, I also don’t think it should be illegal.
There’s a big difference between “it’s unfortunate that adults can’t fuck children, it really should be legalised. People against fucking toddlers are just bigots” and “well I don’t like alcohol, but I think it should be legal”
How you just equated raping a child and drinking a glass of wine is beyond me. Wow.
First of all, none of those things are saying its good.
Ask yourself this:
A man has been publicly championing raping children for decades. Publicly. He firmly believes he should have the right to fuck children.
I think you need to be more realistic about who he and others are and try to understand why they have the beliefs they do, a lot of them are differences in personal and social awareness/ability. An analogy(I know you struggle with these, sorry its just the way I communicate and explain my thoughts), but would you look at someone with dyslexia and use them struggling with reading as an excuse to completely invalidated their opinions and views on everything else?
Stallman has deeply ideological beliefs, one of them being radical freedom of choice. He looked at pedophilia through that, because that’s what his conception of the world(and therefore ability to perceive it) allows. To be totally blunt I think its an “autistic” struggling with understanding the feelings of others(that many on here and Reddit also have) that lead to him focusing on his ideological perspective. I think he “put himself in the shoes” of kids, and thought, “I want to be able to engage in consensual relationships” he didn’t consider that not everyone is him, or how he would feel in circumstances different from ones he’s experienced. This combined with his ideological conviction made him fail to understand how kids lack an ability to consent.
If he really apologized to keep his job, I don’t know. But he has and continues to say deeply controversial things that cost him opportunities. He also still leads Gnu and FSF. I think its possible he just was upset about the situation, talked to someone he trusts about why people are responding this way, and they explained it in a way he could understand and he changed his mind.
How you just equated raping a child and drinking a glass of wine is beyond me. Wow.
I did not equate them. But also don’t underestimate the damage alcohol has had on the world. Child rape is bad, I have never denied that.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 30 Oct 07:55
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He literally says it’s bad that child rape is illegal, then goes on about how if you’re against it you’re a bigot. In what world is that not him saying it’s good?
Saying you believe his is autistic is a disgusting defence. Being autistic doesn’t excuse believing it’s a good thing to have sex with children. Autistic people don’t believe that.
I did not equate them. But also don’t underestimate the damage alcohol has had on the world.
Yes you did equate them.
Having a glass of wine and pinning down your toddler and fucking him are NOT the same. Jesus Christ.
Child rape is bad, I have never denied that.
And Stallman doesn’t think the same. He thinks it’s good.
And yeah. You think it’s as bad as sipping a pint of ale…
He literally says it’s bad that child rape is illegal, then goes on about how if you’re against it you’re a bigot. In what world is that not him saying it’s good?
Because they’re different things? Again this is why I said the analogy. Saying prohibition of alcohol is bad is different from saying alcohol is good. That’s not equating alcohol and pedos, its an analogy on how saying something is good is different from saying it shouldn’t be illegal.
Saying you believe his is autistic is a disgusting defence. Being autistic doesn’t excuse believing it’s a good thing to have sex with children.
Its an explanation of why I think he might have had an opinion I think is disgusting. The defense is that he admitted he was wrong and apologized. Having a wrong belief isn’t a crime, he didn’t rape any kids, so he doesn’t have anything to be “punished” for. And being wrong in the past about ethics is completely different from beliefs on free software- and you know that. You’re just using it as an ad hominem.
Autistic people don’t believe that.
What? There are plenty of autistic people that have a wide variety of beliefs
Yes you did equate them.
Having a glass of wine and pinning down your toddler and fucking him are NOT the same. Jesus Christ.
No I didn’t, stop lying about me. Analogy is not equating, I have no clue why this has to be explained.
And Stallman doesn’t think the same. He thinks it’s good.
He did not say its good, and he does now think the same as he said.
And yeah. You think it’s as bad as sipping a pint of ale…
I am tempted to think you’re trolling seeing as you’re ignoring what I actually wrote and instead just going for cheap attacks. Please stop engaging in bad faith.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 30 Oct 08:55
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Because they’re different things?
He says people are bigoted if they’re against people fucking children. That’s him saying having sex with children is a good thing.
Saying prohibition of alcohol is bad is different from saying alcohol is good.
Agreed. However if you said “I think it’s unfortunate alcohol is banned. If you are against consuming alcohol then you are a bigot.” Then that instead points to you believing alcohol is good.
That’s not equating alcohol and pedos
Yes it is.
Its an explanation of why I think he might have had an opinion
No it fucking isn’t. Having mild autism is not an explanation for thinking pinning down a four year old and giving them some dick is a good thing.
He believes that because he’s a sick fuck who believes in paedophilia. Not because of autism. Autism doesn’t make you like that at all.
The defense is that he admitted he was wrong and apologized
Yep, I’ve already covered this. He did a complete 180 2 days after it became apparent his job was on the line. It wasn’t genuine remorse, it was a last-ditch effort to save his own skin.
What? There are plenty of autistic people that have a wide variety of beliefs
Being autistic doesn’t cause you to believe raping kids is a good thing. Stop pretending it does. You must really hate autistic people if you’re willing to paint them with that brush.
No I didn’t, stop lying about me. Analogy is not equating, I have no clue why this has to be explained.
Yes you did.
Having a glass of wine is not like fucking a four year old. Stop.
He did not say its good, and he does now think the same as he said.
Yes he did. And his opinion has not changed.
I am tempted to think you’re trolling seeing as you’re ignoring what I actually wrote and instead just going for cheap attacks. Please stop engaging in bad faith.
I hope you’re trolling, because if not you’re a fucking psychopath who denies genocide and thinks keeping a toddler as a sex slave is morally equivelant to having a Heineken, and that both should be equally legal.
He says people are bigoted if they’re against people fucking children. That’s him saying having sex with children is a good thing.
Here’s an analogy there is no way you can lie about(though you’ll probably find a way): Saying someone is bigoted if they make fun of arachnophobia is not the same thing as saying arachnophobia is good. And I’m not equating arachnophobia to pedos. Opposing opposition to X is not the same thing as supporting X, its possible to be neutral on X. I’m not neutral on pedos, I think pedos are bad and gross. I think it is wrong to be neutral on pedos, but it is factually inaccurate to say that being “neutral on X” == “X is a good thing”.
Agreed. However if you said “I think it’s unfortunate alcohol is banned. If you are against consuming alcohol then you are a bigot.” Then that instead points to you believing alcohol is good.
Thank you!!! This makes me so happy genuinely!!! You responded to what I actually said!! So you did get it! So why do you keep lying about it?
Anyways, my excitement aside, you’re fine to think that. But I do disagree that that’s the analogy of what you’re saying Stallman said, instead it would be closer to "I think it’s unfortunate alcohol is banned. If you are against letting people consuming alcohol then you are a bigot.”
Which is not necessarily pro-alchohol. Another example, imagine a government that banned a religion, say Buddhism, you could say "I think it’s unfortunate Buddhism is banned. If you are against letting people practice Buddhism then you are a bigot.”- that statement is not necessarily pro-Buddhist, its just anti-prohibition of Buddhism.
Yes it is.
Awww my excitement is gone
No it fucking isn’t. Having mild autism is not an explanation for thinking pinning down a four year old and giving them some dick is a good thing.
It literally is an explanation. You’re free to think the explanation is wrong and bad, but its still an explanation.
Not because of autism. Autism doesn’t make you like that at all.
I didn’t say it was because of autism. I said its because he failed to empathize with victims, yk a symptom of “autism”.
Yep, I’ve already covered this. He did a complete 180 2 days after it became apparent his job was on the line. It wasn’t genuine remorse, it was a last-ditch effort to save his own skin.
He’s still fired from MIT so why doesn’t he backtrack if he still believes it?
Being autistic doesn’t cause you to believe raping kids is a good thing. Stop pretending it does.
Never said it does, stop lying about me.
Yes you did.
Having a glass of wine is not like fucking a four year old. Stop.
My pain is immeasurable. Please quote where I said those exact words.
Yes he did. And his opinion has not changed.
Why’d he stop saying it then?
I hope you’re trolling, because if not you’re a fucking psychopath who denies genocide and thinks keeping a toddler as a sex slave is morally equivelant to having a Heineken, and that both should be equally legal.
Genuinely why are you still responding if you honestly believe that’s what I said? Just to insult me?
Please for the love of god be a troll.
I don’t hide behind a pseudonym to be toxic to people on the internet.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 31 Oct 11:06
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Why do you keep lying about this? He repeatedly defended raping children.
He thinks raping children should be legal.
He thinks anybody against raping children is bigoted.
He thinks raping children is good.
Stop equating drinking alcohol to raping a child. They aren’t comparable.
I’m being toxic? Mate you’re being an apologist for genocide and child rape. I’m not the toxic one here.
He claims he no longer does, can you read his mind?
Yes you are.
Quote what exactly I said that was either of those things.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 05 Nov 12:42
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He did say that.
Do you believe he suddenly changed his mind on an opinion he held and shouted to the world, 2 days after it became apparent he might lose his job over it?
If someone committed fraud, then went to court and said “your honour, I actually agree with you. Fraud is wrong. I came to that conclusion this morning.” would you believe them?
Quote what exactly I said that was either of those things.
It’s what all of your comments have been about. Don’t play dumb.
Do you believe he suddenly changed his mind on an opinion he held and shouted to the world, 2 days after it became apparent he might lose his job over it?
Why didn’t he reverse then? He’s never seemed shy about sharing his opinions before.
If someone committed fraud, then went to court and said “your honour, I actually agree with you. Fraud is wrong. I came to that conclusion this morning.” would you believe them?
An opinion however gross isn’t a crime.
It’s what all of your comments have been about. Don’t play dumb.
I never said it, that’s why you can’t quote it
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 06 Nov 11:40
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He did reverse, that’s my point.
An opinion however gross isn’t a crime.
Never said it was. Now can you answer the question. Would you believe this person was genuine?
Russians aren’t restricted from getting their changes submitted, they just can’t be maintainers. This means that they need another maintainer to approve their changes, just like if you or me were to submit a change. A lot of people seem to be misunderstanding what actually happened.
lemmeBe@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 08:42
nextcollapse
Just goes to show that even a legend can act like an idiot.
Like not risking his lifelyhood to fight US and EU sanctions against a genocidal regime?
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 14:39
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Exactly. He obviously isn’t the one pushing for this, because if he was, he would’ve done it when the war started (or even before). That said, as a Finn, he doesn’t have any reason to stand up for Russians, so when legal push comes to shove, there’s not a good argument for him pushing back.
RobotToaster@mander.xyz
on 24 Oct 10:03
nextcollapse
He makes a habit of that tbh (See tivoization, etc)
I mean he’s legally obligated to, not really a choice. He can say screw it, but then he opens himself up to legal troubles.
CommanderCloon@lemmy.ml
on 24 Oct 08:55
nextcollapse
Absolutely idiotic take that endangers not only Linux but fractures the concept of open source itself.
lostinfog@reddthat.com
on 24 Oct 11:18
nextcollapse
Was worth it just to see you morons fume
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 11:54
nextcollapse
I think it’s a great change. But then again I’m not a lemmy.ml user.
Thinking this endangers Linux is pretty hilarious. Linux will be fine without a handful of Russian maintainers lol.
Does anybody really believe that the whole Linux project will fall apart because of this?
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 17:48
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Go look at the principles of open-source or free software as defined either by the OSI and the FSF and then come back when you find the one that says that Linus needs to violate US sanctions to keep employees of Russian companies in trusted roles within his project.
You know. I don't like what the Russian leadership and military are doing. I feel like ultimately we're in the cold war era. But you know, at the height of the cold war, radio operators around the world still worked Russian stations.
Yes, there was a very clear policy, neither side talked about ANYTHING beyond their signal report and working conditions (information about radio, power output and aerial basically). At the height of the actual cold war, the individuals were not cancelled like this.
Sanction the leadership, sanction the money, and sanction the military. But the normal people that are subject to the propaganda? I don't understand the benefit in doing this. I also don't see how the sanctions effect an open source project..
Seems a bit weird. Maybe there's information we're not privy to, but on the face of it, just based on what we're seeing. Seems like a very very odd move.
FSB wants backdoor in kernel. FSB notices subsystem maintainer is Russian, lives in Chelyabinsk. Can close eyes to backdoor, can pretend to review. FSB in Moscow make call to FSB in Chelyabinsk telling to buy heavy wrench at hardware store.
JoeKrogan@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 10:48
nextcollapse
Same could be said for any intelligence service . it is better to focus on preventing and detecting these things through analysis and code reviews.
And they could just offer boatloads of cash to someone in another country to insert something so this doesn’t really prevent anything it only isolates a certain subset of people.
So if we can’t completely 100% deal with a problem, we shouldn’t even try? I mean, you’re correct, but we can’t solve all problems at once. If we deal with at least one, then we’ve made progress. Then we can try to deal with the next one.
No but this doesn’t do anything to “deal” with the problem as anyone can built up trust like Jian tan showed. The argument that this makes us more secure is like saying closed source is more secure cause the hackers dont have access to the source.
We have evidence of the US messing with nist standards so by that same logic should we assume all us actors are bad ?
The solution is to verify the code maybe have multiple people from different locations have to review stuff. Build more checks into the process.
The whole point of it being open is that it can be reviewed. It shouldn’t matter where the contributor is from as all code should be subjected to a rigorous review process.
Saik0Shinigami@lemmy.saik0.com
on 25 Oct 05:04
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We have evidence of the US messing with nist standards
What… You realize that NIST is literally a government agency? It’s part of the United States Department of Commerce. It’s literally the US government. Are you saying that the government is messing with itself? What does that even mean?
What’s so strange about that? It’s not like the government - any government - is just one person. Of course some people in government can mess with other people in government. Even people in the same office mess with each other. Intra-office politics, and so on.
And I'll say the same here as I did above. If it was for security, their code is tainted too. It's an arbitrary reaction that is not complete as a solution to anything.
walden@sub.wetshaving.social
on 24 Oct 13:12
nextcollapse
They can check existing code. You have to be able to trust people who are contributing.
They can check new code by these risky people as it comes in, but it why risk it?
Well it seems it was more to do with sanctions, if the open letter from one of the chopped developers is to be believed. In which case, I think the right thing is to move the names to contributors (they did still contribute), remove them from maintainers (some maintainers are actually paid by the foundation, I mean not a lot, but some are paid).
I still find it all a little odd. But likely there was a bit of a prod from somewhere higher as to how sanctions should be followed.
I am on your side and don’t understand the fury of down votes in this section regarding this stance. I am from a shit hole of a country too and if my life long contribution to open science (hypothetically speaking) could be so completely disregarded because of something ultra shitty that my country did, I would be super sad and probably mad at the OS community for leaving me behind so quickly.
I also don’t understand the benefit of doing this. Most people seem to claim it’s for security reasons but that does not make sense to me. Closing doors to someone without any proof of malintent is so against open source philosophy that it is perhaps more damaging in its core. And being the kind of government Russia is (or for that matter Israel, China, USA etc etc) they will always try to gain cyber war advantage by such methods. This approach is therefore clearly unsustainable. You would only be able to give dev access to a handful of countries in the world.
It sure as hell won’t scratch a dent in the Russian government’s armor when all these sanctions did not. It is not going to achieve 1/1000th of what all those ambargoes, frozen accounts etc aimed and failed to achieve.
Therefore there is either missing information (external pressure to take this action) or this is simply an action based on personal judgement.
Therefore there is either missing information (external pressure to take this action) or this is simply an action based on personal judgement.
Looking at the other post about NVidia drivers, I am starting to wonder if western governments (or perhaps just the US) are going after large orgs and suggesting how current sanctions should be interpreted. In which case, not sure I can then blame the Linux foundation, since you know, you don't need government heavy breathing down your neck.
foremanguy92_@lemmy.ml
on 24 Oct 10:27
nextcollapse
Don’t know the whole story but :
If you banned them because they are promoting the Russia, it’s okay.
But it’s not if you banned them ONLY because they’re Russians.
But maybe you could like said to them to do like in the sports, and operate as a “no-country” people, but surely not ban them for their nationality
MilitantAtheist@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 10:29
nextcollapse
Linus is from Finland. Finns barely tolerate Russians under usual circumstances. These are not usual circumstances.
It is genuine xenophobia. I like in Poland, and its like you’re either a homophobe, or a xenophobe- with pretty limited inbetween. (And there are plenty of people who are both)
If he did that that would have been genuine discrimination. If he has to do it now because of sanctions, then ok fine. But otherwise I don’t want to see an open source project treating people differently based on where they were born.
Come on lemmy, how is this pro-racism comment upvoted so many times? Please, think.
Oh no, the treaty-breaking, nuke-threatening, war-crime-committing invading force is being discriminated against!
Holy shit, gtfo. Maybe don’t be an actual cunt if you don’t want people to “discriminate” against you? The guy didn’t even fire all Russians, only those tied to sanctioned companies. He did less than should’ve been done. But that’s only because what should be done to Russia at this point is assassinating their leader, disarming the country, executing the army, installing a puppet government that ensures economic and military inferiority, and selling tickets to piss on Putins grave for the rest of the world to blow off some steam.
Edit: here’s a view from a Russian, maybe that helps:
Look as long as your a NATO nation, we’re a perfectly peaceful and reasonable super power with a military that would scorch the earth to ash within 24 hours.
rottingleaf@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 08:40
nextcollapse
Linus’s dad was a Finnish communist and lived in USSR for some time, one can say a VIP person. You actually lack the context to realize how important this is. Many people of such connections (not accusing Linus, no) are usually still connected to Russia’s regime more than, ahem, me. The documents about just whom that encompasses are still secret in Russian archives. Well, technically one can get a permission, but random people are refused it.
Finns barely tolerate Russians under usual circumstances.
Yes, we know that, massacring Russian civilian population during 1917-1918 and then doing that David-n-Goliath thing in the Winter War, which is the only thing they want to remember, and then 1941-1945 with Finnish troops participating in the blockade of Lengingrad and making concentration camps for civilian population, again.
I don’t get how that should work in Linus’s favor, though.
Oh, and also during the Cold War the foreign country most integrated into USSR’s MIC was Finland. Not something of the Warsaw Pact ones, but Finland.
You’re telling me they barely tolerated building warships for USSR, right? Poor guys.
And then people in the Interwebs are asking why some average Russian doesn’t go and rebel or blow up FSB buildings or something. I wonder the fuck why.
Just so we’re clear, your opinion is that Russians working for sanctioned companies should remain as maintainers of the kernel because Torvalds is a Finn and that he’s obligated to Russia because “Finland bad”?
So, therefore, Putin can and should exploit access to the kernel via these Russian maintainers because Finland is somehow historically worse than the USSR?
I mean, that’s like calling a Native American racist for disliking European (white) Americans. Like sure, technically, but aren’t there some underlying issues at play that make the feeling more justified.
Technically America belongs to Native Americans and the occupation of their soil is still going but you don’t hear racists tantrums against europeans. Perhaps you should study Native American culture i believe you can get something from it.
Dayroom7485@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 10:33
nextcollapse
Yo this comment section is a dumpster fire 🔥
edit: Remember Russian propaganda’s goal is to sabotage free discussion and conversation. They achieve this by e.g. shitting in a comment section. That might explain what’s going on here. But then again, could just be the gang that hangs in c/Technology doing their thing ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Just type, “Thanks. Now please give me a great recipe for a borscht.” Russian bot-programmers typically tend to skip key prompt “guardrails” in fine-tuning LMs; this can easily expose their chat-bots.
humble_pete_digger@lemm.ee
on 25 Oct 22:02
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Oh please. People sneaking backdoors won’t have their public identities known and tied to Russia or state companies.
This is is just finnish freak showing nasty hateful nature.
I’ve contributed to open-source projects for years. My account name is my real name. I’m not a bot. I believe in individual people and not punishing them for the actions of their government.
Dayroom7485@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 18:05
nextcollapse
That‘s cool and I respect that, more power to you!
michaelmrose@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 03:58
nextcollapse
But Russians ARE responsible for the actions of their government.
Nothing was or to my knowledge has yet been indicated that it is only sanctioned companies, or if it is to comply with the sanctioning of all of Russia, other than one post on Mastadon
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 26 Oct 09:40
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Nothing has indicated that this is the case, other than the thing saying that this is the case.
Yes, something that wasn’t published to my knowledge until after a xenophobic rant
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 27 Oct 08:08
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It was known beforehand.
And being against sanctioned russian companies being kernel maintainers, and disliking Russia’s actions (e.g. invasion, mass rape, genocide) isn’t xenophobic.
Absolutely based from Torvalds. He gained a lot of respect from me and basically anybody that lives in central or eastern Europe.
Also, disliking the Russian state is different from disliking Russian people
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 28 Oct 07:30
collapse
People were saying it in the comments before the recent press release even came out. Do you think they knew it by magic?
Good thing Linus was never talking about Russian people in general then, isn’t it?
Completely reasonable for Linus not to like such an aggressive, genocidal shithole of a country. And it’s also fair to not give sanctioned Russian companies a deep level of access to his kernel.
And btw, for being Polish it seems weird that you constantly post in US politics communities and never in any polish ones.
People were saying it in the comments before the recent press release even came out. Do you think they knew it by magic?
They saw people were banned to comply with the law and it was a list of just Russians. Huawei is a sanctioned company and none of their employees were banned.
Good thing Linus was never talking about Russian people in general then, isn’t it?
But he was talking about the specific people implying that they were supporting the Russian aggression, which to my knowledge they weren’t. The removal also said it can be reversed with “sufficient documentation” without any clarification on what that is. There were and are many opportunities to say “these people were removed because they worked for sanctioned companies” but that was not said.
And btw, for being Polish it seems weird that you constantly post in US politics communities and never in any polish ones.
To my knowledge there are no Polish communities on here. I do comment and post on r/Poland on Reddit.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 29 Oct 08:31
collapse
Nobody got banned. They were removed from their positions as maintainers, because they work for a sanctioned company.
Please stop being purposely misleading.
They can still contribute to their heart’s content. They just can’t submit patches with no oversight, because they are close to the Russian government, who, I don’t know if you’ve realised, has invaded their neighbour and is currently committing genocide.
Yep I knew that, no clue why I wrote that, sometimes I should probably proofread.
They were removed from their positions as maintainers, because they work for a sanctioned company.
But again, employees of non-Russian sanctioned companies were not removed.
Please stop being purposely misleading.
I am not, it was genuine slip of the finger? Idk, but if you check my profile there are plenty of examples where I omitted or said the wrong word, I really should proof read more rather- though that would ruin the fun. Stop assuming malice when someone has a different opinion from you and makes a mistake.
They just can’t submit patches with no oversight
There is still oversight, plenty of people read every merged commit.
because they are close to the Russian government
I’ve never seen anything to support this.
has invaded their neighbour and is currently committing genocide.
Invaded yes, genocide I have no clue what really is happening in Ukraine, but I would say it doesn’t look like a genocide. War is bad, killing is bad, but genocide is a specific thing, and this feels a lot like just adding a word to make it sound more bad. The invasion is bad enough.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 29 Oct 13:10
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You’re getting little in the way of benefit of the doubt because you’re repeatedly trying to make Russia look good and misleading about this.
It’s also somewhat hard to take you seriously when in another comment you equated drinking alcohol with child rape.
11 maintainers from sanctioned Russian companies were removed from their position where they could submit patches without any approval required.
Even if there weren’t sanctions, it would be good to make that move. Russia could easily utilise these people to introduce insecurities. We do not need another xz utils disaster.
Yes, Russia is committing genocide as the UN defines it. Stop trying to minimise what they’re doing. Genocide. Russia is committing genocide in Ukraine.
Genocide: “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”
Putin has been leveling entire cities. He said Ukraine isn’t a real country with a real culture. He has been abducting children and bringing them into Russia so they grow up as Russians. He has been altering signs, maps, etc to erase Ukrainian names.
You’re getting little in the way of benefit of the doubt because you’re repeatedly trying to make Russia look good and misleading about this.
Never did either of those things.
It’s also somewhat hard to take you seriously when in another comment you equated drinking alcohol with child rape.
Why are you lying? I did not equate them, and you know that. I analogized. If I say a sad movie “hit me like a truck” does that mean I’m equating it, or even saying its close? No, its an analogy.
11 maintainers from sanctioned Russian companies were removed from their position where they could submit patches without any approval required.
My understanding is this is not true. My understanding is they are pushed to linux-next where people test and review them, and are eventually merged into the main branch after Linus reviews them, though I agree those patches are probably not reviewed as thoroughly, but there is still an approval process. My understanding is no one other than Linus can push directly to main.
Russia could easily utilise these people to introduce insecurities. We do not need another xz utils disaster.
Linux is not xz, each change has weeks before introduction and is much more looked at. Furthermore, the core thing, Jia Tan wasn’t a real person- these maintainers are real people. If you’re going to do a backdoor there still could be pseudonymous maintainers and contributors, those that show their face are more trust worthy. They’re at least risking losing their real names reputation.
Stop trying to minimise what they’re doing.
I’m not, stop insulting me. Nothing I said minimized it in any way.
Genocide: “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”
I think this definition is not specific enough. I would not consider ‘cultural genocide’ genocide. Genocide is the systematic slaughter of nearly everyone of a specific group with the intent to kill nearly everyone in that group. It is not the banning of a religion to destroy that religion or as China and some other countries have tried to do- encouraging or forcing reproduction with a certain ethnic group to ‘dilute the blood’. It is also not banning or repressing a language. That doesn’t mean those things aren’t ‘cultural genocide’, just that ‘cultural genocide’ and genocide are different things. To be honest, I’m not sure how to classify forced sterilization.
Putin has been leveling entire cities.
This itself doesn’t mean its a genocide, war crime and massacre yes of course.
He said Ukraine isn’t a real country with a real culture.
Yes to the first, the second though do you have a source for? (Though I would support that if he applied the same to Russian ‘culture’ but I don’t think he does sadly)
He has been abducting children and bringing them into Russia so they grow up as Russians.
Systemic cultural repression is bad, taking orphaned kids from their close family is bad. Adopting orphaned children itself is not itself bad, just like an American adopting a baby born in China isn’t cultural repression for them to be assimilated into American ‘culture’. I don’t know how much of it is former, and how much is the latter, but it seems like it leans towards the former rather than the latter- but there are also cases where its the latter.
He has been altering signs, maps, etc to erase Ukrainian names.
Okay?
The reason I am hesitant to agree with the claim of genocide is that there are still plenty of ethnic Ukrainians living in Russian occupied territories, and they are being oppressed(even more so than others in Russian territory) but they still exist. One example, my grandma was born in Nazi occupied Czech Republic, called then on her birth certificate the “Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia”. Czechoslovak resistance assassinated the Nazi governor of the protectorate, an in revenge that Nazis killed all the adults in the town of Ležáky and in Lidice all the men and many women and children were slaughtered. This was a horrific atrocity, but I do not believe it was a genocide of Czechs because for the most(though still many, many were slaughtered) part ethnic Czechs were able to live, oppressed, but still allowed to live. It would be fair to say it was a genocide of the people of Ležáky but I don’t think that counts as a “national, ethnical, racial or religious group”
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 30 Oct 08:11
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Never did either of those things.
Yes you did.
Why are you lying? I did not equate them
Yes you did.
My understanding is this is not true.
Your understanding could be that 2+2=5, but that does not make it so.
each change has weeks before introduction and is much more looked at.
That is impossible to do for the thousands of patches that get applied. Which is why maintainers have to be trusted. Ones working for sanctioned Russian companies cannot be.
They’re at least risking losing their real names reputation.
Do you think Russia cares about that? They’re happily conscripting young men into war. If they tell a maintainer to introduce a vulnerability otherwise their family will be killed, do you really think they’ll say “No. My name will then be tarnished in the Linux circle! I’d rather let myself and my family die than let that happen!”
I think this definition is not specific enough.
How convenient 🇷🇺. Regardless, that is the definition.
This itself doesn’t mean its a genocide,
I didn’t say it alone did. I said it as part of a bunch of other things.
Yes to the first, the second though do you have a source for?
Go look it up yourself, sealion. It won’t take you long.
Regardless, it’s another point in the genocide column.
Adopting orphaned children itself is not itself bad, just like an American adopting a baby born in China isn’t cultural repression
Of fuck off you genocide denialist.
Forcible mass abduction of children with the specific intent of destroying Ukrainian culture is not the same as a family adopting a child who happened to have been born in another country.
What the fuck is that equivalence? This is like your “child rape and drinking alcohol are both bad, but I don’t think the state should have the right to ban them” bullshit all over again.
How could you be defending something like that. Christ. Nazis did this.
Okay?
I see the blatant attempt at destroying all Ukrainian culture (i.e. committing genocide) means nothing to you.
Quote it then, stop with the gaslighting, give the quote.
Do you think Russia cares about that? They’re happily conscripting young men into war. If they tell a maintainer to introduce a vulnerability otherwise their family will be killed, do you really think they’ll say “No. My name will then be tarnished in the Linux circle! I’d rather let myself and my family die than let that happen!”
I think that that is not an effective long term tactic. XZ relied on kilobytes of binary files to be blindly called, that sort of thing doesn’t happen in the Linux kernel. Its also not a good idea to use a real Russians working for real defense contractors if you don’t want to raise suspicion.
How convenient 🇷🇺.
What?
Regardless, that is the definition.
That is a definition.
Go look it up yourself, sealion. It won’t take you long.
I have that’s why I asked, I’ve seem him say that Russians and Ukrainians are one people, but not that there is no such thing as Ukrainian culture. Another question though, why are you even still responding if you’re just going to insult me? No one is going to read this far into an old thread to see you “humiliate me” and you’re not going to change my mind through insults. Is is just a convenient punching bag?
I didn’t say it alone did. I said it as part of a bunch of other things.
And I responded to those other things. You seem to be ignoring half of what I say.
Of fuck off you genocide denialist.
I’m not, and I’m not even say what’s happening in Ukraine definitely isn’t a genocide. Just with the information I have it doesn’t look like it. I was hoping you might have more information on the topic, and you somewhat did, I didn’t know about the child abduction thing.
Forcible mass abduction of children with the specific intent of destroying Ukrainian culture is not the same as a family adopting a child who happened to have been born in another country.
I agree, that’s why I said what I said. You know the next sentence where I specifically said they’re not the same thing.
What the fuck is that equivalence? This is like your “child rape and drinking alcohol are both bad, but I don’t think the state should have the right to ban them” bullshit all over again.
Where did I say child rape shouldn’t be banned? You should work for TMZ or something, because it seems like you’re great at picking out tiny snippets of sentences and ignoring the full context. I never once equated child rape and drinking alchohol. Or that child abduction is the same as adoption- seeing as I literally said that child abduction and adoption are the same thing, and this seems like its mostly child abduction.
I see the blatant attempt at destroying all Ukrainian culture (i.e. committing genocide) means nothing to you.
Signs are not valuable, if the Nazis invaded Poland then decided they were just going to change the signs then I don’t think they would be quite as remembered. The Nazis I’m certain did change the signs- but that is pretty insignificant thing to care about to be honest. The child abduction is far more important to focus on than signs.w
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 31 Oct 11:11
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It’s just an endless circle of you defending Russian genocide and defending child rape with you, isn’t it?
Sanctioned companies are gone from the maintainers list. Good riddance. Thankfully Linus isn’t a pro-russian loser.
RMS is an advocate of child rape. Thankfully nobody takes him seriously anymore.
Genocide is bad. Child rape is bad. I can’t believe this even needs to be explained to some people.
It’s just an endless circle of you defending Russian genocide and defending child rape with you, isn’t it?
I did neither of those things. You are openly ignoring what I said.
RMS is an advocate of child rape.
RMS did not do that.
Genocide is bad. Child rape is bad.
I agree.
I’m sorry to say though I am reporting you for trolling because you repeatedly accusing me of saying stuff I never said, refuse to acknowledge anything I say- then continue to lie about me without providing any evidence for your lies.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 01 Nov 14:47
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Report away. Anybody reading this will agree it’s utterly insane to talk about drinking a glass of wine and fucking a toddler as of they are the same thing.
I analogized, but I’m glad you finally admit I didn’t equate them. Because, shockingly, comparing is not equating. Literally any 2 things can be compared, that isn’t equating.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 12 Nov 07:58
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Save your sanity and do Settings -> Blocks -> Block instance -> lemmy.ml
Also perhaps block me if you strongly disagree with the above.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 11:44
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That instance’s mods blocked me this morning lol.
The amount of people simping for Russia in that other thread is insane. Apparently calling Ukraine a country of Nazis is fine, but saying Russia is a dictatorship is not lmao.
If you see a tankie or pro Russia comment, 99% of the time it’s a lemmy.ml poster
SynopsisTantilize@lemm.ee
on 24 Oct 11:55
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Can we see where someone is hosting a Lemmy (domain, insnace, thing?)
WhatThaFudge@lemmy.sdf.org
on 24 Oct 12:54
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Sometimes it is posted on the instance front page or about page.
I guess, you got to check IP and see what country it belongs to, but if they use a VPS or VPN or both, you can’t really know where the person who manages the instance lives / operates.
France. Maybe. It’s mostly guesswork, but gives the same location for hexbear.net.
It’s mostly cosplay commies rather than actual Russians.
SynopsisTantilize@lemm.ee
on 25 Oct 14:01
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Yea I figured it’s just a bunch of middle class kids who have the privilege of being online and complain. Also fuck Hexbear…all my homies hate Hexbear.
I agree, but people aren’t their government. Discriminating based on nationality is xenophobia.
khorak@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 25 Oct 08:13
nextcollapse
Did you miss the fact that it’s not a blanket ban on Russians? If you work for a sanctioned company, then I’m sorry but you are out. Missed the chance to jump ship in the last twenty years of Putin turning Russia into a dictatorship? Well, I hope you like being sent to your death. Sad times, but let’s not pretend that this is discrimination.
From what I saw in the executive order it wasn’t limited to just sanctioned companies. Linus and other maintainers haven’t come out with which specific sanction they’re talking about so its just speculation
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 09:01
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Banning contributions from sanctioned russian companies is not xenophobia. Pipe down.
I heard Russia is full of Nazis, and if that level of hearsay is fine for staging a multi year invasion and destroying a thousand years of history it’s just FINE for segregating bad-actors and persona non grata.
Can’t deal with it? Move to a less shitty company not sanctioned by scumbags. Or even a less tribal country 🤷
I heard Russia is full of Nazis, and if that level of hearsay is fine for staging a multi year invasion and destroying a thousand years of history it’s just FINE for segregating bad-actors and persona non grata.
yep I got banned from there for simply stating that ukraine has a right to defend themselves after Modi called for “peace”. Apparently absolute pacifism is only required from one side.
DaTingGoBrrr@lemmy.ml
on 24 Oct 11:54
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Some of us are actually normal
Dayroom7485@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 12:17
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Doesn’t help if the admins think you’re not. Which is why I had to relocate a community because of admin content meddling and instance users shitstorming in a waterglass.
Yeah, when I created my Lemmy account I had to choose an instance before knowing anything about Lemmy yet. And .ml seemed like the default one to choose, given join-lemmy.org told me it is ran by the devs.
improved my lemmy experience ten fold just blocking that instance.
spongebue@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 14:16
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Yesterday I accidentally commented in .ml and mentioned that voting third party in our current voting system is playing with fire to get a worse candidate in office. I was told I must therefore start a grassroots movement for ranked choice voting, because apparently I can’t have an opinion without a movement.
Normally I let a few downvotes get under my skin more than I care to admit, but in this setting it was kind of a badge of honor. Honestly it was kind of “fun” to see what people were saying.
Please stip blocking people, please stip talking about blocking everyone
Yes, i gettit. Different opinions can be annoying but if we don’t all participate in. A similar environment.we all just disappear in our little echo chamber pillars, unable to hear or understand the others, which leads to more extremist opinions on all sides.
We NEED to hear others, if not just for the fact that others may NEED to hear our voices too.
I honestly this echo chamber crap is squarely caused by the Internet, the tool that promised to bring humanity together, and instead ended up dividing us more than ever because anyone hearing an opinion they don’t like immediately bans that voice. Can’t have anyone disagreeing now!
I get it, there are some stupid opinions out there, dangerous ones too, but the more we ban them, the more they will only be able to talk eachother into extremism and the WILL be back, with more people, and more extremist opinions.
FFS, we need to learn to start listening to each other again. An entire generation has grown up with “if you don’t like to hear that opinion, just have it banned”, and it’s not helpful.
Early Internet was a wild west crazy town for sure, loads of assholes lurking around, but it was better than what we have now, where EVERY space is curated and hawkishly guarded against those that might even look in the wrong direction.
I’ve spent quite some time on right wing subs back in the day in Reddit, discussing whatever topic with hard line conservative right wing types and when you do you find out they are human too, usually with a lot of fears, and you actually get to understand why they feel the way they feel, and you can get them to understand that yeah, maybe it’s not the best solution. You find common ground and got somebody a little closer to the light. Yes, I’m a big fan of that black guy (forgot his name) who goes out to talk to KKK members to convert them away from the KKK.
I know this isn’t for everyone, but a lot of us can and should step up and start talking, start listening. I’m not saying st all you should agree with a neo nazi, but you can listen to him or her, understand where they’re coming from, and have them do the same. Once you both see the humanity in each other you can actually make everyone be a little better.
It’s better than the alternative where the inevitable outcome is that we’ll start having civil wars everywhere and just kill those we oppose.
LunchMoneyThief@links.hackliberty.org
on 24 Oct 15:01
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I’m surprised to find somebody with some sense around here.
I have never used a block or mute feature on any site or any service in all my life. It is wild to me that people today actually use those features, let alone to constrict the ideas that they allow themselves to be exposed to.
I conducted a fun little experiment over at /c/asklemmy@lemmy.world in which I posited the question: “If it were possible, how would you deprogram an extreme conservative?”. I then waited twenty hours before posting “If it were possible, how would you deprogram an extreme progressive?”. The difference in reception between the questions exposed the intense lib-left bias that is pervasive on Lemmy, a byproduct of people constantly walling themselves into self-made echochambers.
… but seriously, the Internet is so different from real life that no comparisons make sense. Opinions that would have been uttered by the craziest village idiots in a local gas station 30 years ago are now distributed and magnified by the social media machine. In the past, you could see with your eyes, hear with your ears and even smell with your nose which people you really really should not listen to, but in the internet, those people look exactly like you and me.
And it’s all sapping your energy and time, the most precious resources you have.
That’s why blocking is fine, even whole instances if they are shown to be crazy enough.
Also, I would like to point out that the creators of the clients for the first community platforms (usenet) recognized early on the importance of shutting people up (killfiles).
P4ulin_Kbana@lemmy.eco.br
on 24 Oct 17:13
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I understand what you mean but I’ll have to disagree. Letting people just do anything like that is like not charging criminals for the crimes they’ve commited. It could make people act similarly.
We NEED to hear others, if not just for the fact that others may NEED to hear our voices too.
We have tried engaging in good faith, but they don’t WANT to hear us. For example, the mods of !worldnews@lemmy.ml (specifically lemmy.ml/u/OurToothbrush) ban for people for simply disagreeing with them. Happened to me and I’ve seen multiple others.
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 15:37
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Seriously, the hexbears just moved one over to keep getting exposure.
This is about open-source being open. I’m a very non-tankie, and I think this is bad- though a bit better if its only people working for sanctioned companies.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 17:38
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Go look at the principles of open-source or free software as defined either by the OSI and the FSF and then come back when you find the one that says that Linus needs to violate US sanctions to keep employees of Russian companies in trusted roles within his project.
Also, what does this have to do with being tankie or not? Modern Russia is very openly not communist.
.ml is full of tankies. Also, nothing in open-source principles say that to my knowledge. Am I not allowed to have beliefs not explicitly defined by the OSI?
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 18:14
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The OSI’s definition of open-source software is the de facto definition used by most people, and for most of the remaining people that don’t, they (mistakenly, because they define “free” software, not “open-source”) defer to the FSF’s defintion of free software.
So yes, you should be explicitly noting that what you define as “open” has nothing at all to do with the far-and-away most widely used definition(s) of “open-source”.
Yes, and I said I want open-source to be open. As in not just open-source, but also open to all. That is my personal moral value, and I advocate for that. What the OSI supports has nothing to do with that.
I want a lot of things too, but what I want most of all is to live in a society governed by the rule of law. There are no absolute rights - limiting the freedoms of people who are complicit in crimes or enable them is how we protect the rights of everyone else. Simple as.
The limitations didn’t target a nationality, they targetted sanctioned entities. And you know this because it has been made clear throughout this thread, including in numerous replies to your own comments. So you are demonstrably and obviously disingenious, not engaging in good faith or have yourself been misled. This behavior logically leads people to the conclusion that you are either being deliberately manipulative or you are confused and have been deliberately manipulated. Sadly, the end result is the same in both cases and regardless of your intention.
I wish you the best. We should all be a lot more dedicated to intellectual honesty.
And you know this because it has been made clear throughout this thread,
As I said, everyone is basing this on one post on Mastadon, I have no clue where that person got that information, if he is trustworthy, if he speaks for the LF/Kernel team, or what.
I hope people do not do that and take into account this campaign against lemmy.ml. I am aware of the accusations against the admins of this instance, but I practically never see here this kind of brigading, campaigning against whole instances like lemmy.world. Sure, I myself did make a bad comment or two about lemmy.world out of >800 comments, but that’s normal. I think the fair thing to do, is to respond in the same scale (i. e. blocking specific users) instead of going all ballistic with instance blocks.
I’d also like an option to just block/hide the instance part of user names. I don’t like what this bit of information is doing to discussions in Lemmy.
I know I can. Being blocked is something I do not have any issues with. My comment was merely my point of view. If someone is being actively bothered by the admins of the instance I’m in, it’s completely fair to block it. However, to block whole instances for ideological differences is kind of immature.
Saik0Shinigami@lemmy.saik0.com
on 25 Oct 04:52
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I don’t like what this bit of information is doing to discussions in Lemmy.
Cool. That’s fine that you don’t like it. However people have a right to not see what they don’t want to see. If they decide that means it’s lemmy.ml, then that’s their right.
Just like I have a right to not peer with lemmy.ml if I didn’t want to.
Hell I have a hard block on ALL Russian and Chinese IP addresses. Not because I have something against the people. But I just don’t want to deal with the headache of accepting traffic from those countries.
Just because some (or even a majority) of the people on lemmy.ml are fine to interact with doesn’t mean that there isn’t contention from other users and admins on that instance.
I think the fair thing to do, is to respond in the same scale (i. e. blocking specific users) instead of going all ballistic with instance blocks.
it’s not just random users, the mods of larger communities like !worldnews@lemmy.ml will delete your comments and ban you simply for disagreeing with them.
For this, some people proposed to move the community from one instance to another. Now, it seems to me like the incentive to comment on instances ideologically biased for people who cares about the voting system is basically to troll the opposing instance. Which leads to this petty battle that I will ignore from now on.
EDIT: It’s also interesting to note that lemmy.ml is not like any other instance. In fact, it would be beneficial to not have big communities here. My account is here because it’s an old account, but lemmy.ml should be more like a “testing” instance, and they probably shouldn’t be signing up more people. The admins and devs acknowledge this from time to time. So, I guess everyone wins with this.
I would encourage that, but if your instance doesn’t defederate them you may have to go a bit farther since you’ll still get replies from lemmy.ml users, as users are not blocked as part of this functionality. And that is by design, it’s not meant to act as a replacement or alternative to defederation, it’s meant to act as an alternative to blocking all communities on an instance.
dsilverz@thelemmy.club
on 24 Oct 13:03
nextcollapse
“Those who don’t learn history are doomed to repeat it”. Back when Pearl Harbor happened, people started to see japanese citizens as enemies. Not solely the Japanese government to that time, but even the humble japanese, even if those had despises against their government. Almost a century after, humanity is making the exact same thing, this time involving Russians and Ukrainians, as well as Israeli and Palestinians (exactly, “both sides”). Like how it happened back in Pearl Harbor, the prejudice extended all the way to STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Medical), the subject of this community and thread.
I was born a Brazilian, without my consent. Also, without my consent, there is this thing called “Brazilian politics”. I hate both the current and the former governments. I have no money nor conditions to simply leave the country but even if I did, I’d stay born as a Brazilian. Everyone who meets a Brazilian readily asks things such as “how’s carnival, how’s samba, how’s football, how’s Neymar”. Being a Brazilian necessarily mean that I have to like those things? Being a Brazilian necessarily mean that I consented to the current politics within this country? If Lula is sided with Putin, does it necessarily mean that me, a Brazilian citizen unknown to Lula or the entire government (I’m just one among 220 million people), endorse him as well? Should I blame myself for my entire life for being born Brazilian? Should a Russian do the same? An Ukrainian? An Israeli? An Palestinian?
explodicle@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 13:20
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Is the existence of sanctions a slippery slope to Japanese internment camps?
Indirectly common people are being seized from their humanity. I guess the disliking people know how immigration is not something freely accessible, lots of people around the world just don’t have the necessary conditions to leave the country where they were born against their own consent, be it Russia or whatever other country.
The point of sanctions is to make it harder to run a country, part of that is making the citizens angry with the government
They don’t target Russians outside of Russia, and do target non-Russians in Russia, because they’re meant to actually be somewhat effective rather than just inciting hate
I’m sure lots of Russians were already angry with their government way before the sanctions, so what now? Ideally, people could do massive protests, Putin would be scared as heck so he renounces, people invoke the good old democracy again, they vote, a new leader takes place, Ukraine-Russia war would cease, both Russians and Ukrainians would happily fly together mounted in winged unicorns… Except everyone knows it doesn’t work that way!! Governments (not just Putin’s) have multiple ways to fight any protests going inside their country, governments can tear gas citizens, governments can end lives from their own citizens, governments can end a protest before it even happens through censorship and massive electrical/internet blackouts. Even when citizens has guns, governments have stronger guns. Lots of recent examples are there to demonstrate how this happens.
People from a sanctioned people can and will starve and die, because their governments and their bureaucrats and forces (police and army) can have their own sustenance, so it doesn’t really matter for them if their own citizens starve to death. Russia, China, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, they won’t change simply because population became angry: I guess everyone in the west remember the Tiananmen Square, did it change China’s government? I guess no.
So instead of sanctioning and indirectly punishing the people, one option would be that organizations (maybe Red Cross, UN, I dunno) could intervene silently and peacefully inside a country, helping people to flee their country to a safer place, effectively reducing that country army’s recruitment potential and weakening its military power (did anybody from NATO, WEF, UN, or whatever organizations, even thought about this, helping Russians flee away from Russia in order to weaken Russia’s military?).
It’s worth remembering that military recruitment is often a mandatory thing, and the only way common people can run away from it is running away from the country, something that won’t happen if they have no money to start emigration processes (it costs money, you know, it’s not a free thing, even seeking political asylum needs money). Cutting money will only cut lives unrelated to the leaders that are carrying wars (and I’m sure Putin won’t cry because Ms. Mary Marylovski died from starvation because US and Europe indirectly cut her income, because Ms. Mary Marylovski is another unknown citizen to Putin or other higher level government bureaucrats).
I digressed from technology here, but those are my thoughts on the matter.
Edit: Very likely they were paid, and that’s where IP addresses end and sanctions begin.
Every worker within an organization has to be paid, somehow.
Somebody must bear the costs of the supposedly “free (gratis).” In the end, nothing is truly free cost. And, not a single person would work for free (no payment, compensation, or benefits, or in other words, gratis) full-time.
It is an absurdity to think otherwise.
Free and open-source software is handed out at zero-cost to make it possible to lower the barrier of entrance; to make it as widely available as possible. Knowledge should, indeed, be free (gratis).
Nobody says to ignore the law… it is Linus comments that were bad. Instead of defending the people that was working for him all these years and he had trust on them, he decided to throw them under the bus because he is from Finland. Well, Finland prospered the most on its life under neutrality.
With those incendiary comments he did on the people that worked for him for years… I doubt they will be back. If he did not trust them, he would have gotten rid of them years ago. He waited to the deadline to kick them out… good, so he trusted them till now… but then, he despise them from being Russian. I simply don’t get it… I don’t know… maybe Linus is just an ass or he was forced to say that… I think probably the first.
anticurrent@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 13:14
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So the Rest of the world should trust CIA, NSA contributions but not Russia’s FSB ? come on , opensource should be tolerant towards all espionage agencies no matter their skin color.
Don’t get me wrong, I dont think it’s right to forbid people from collaborating in an open environment just because of what their government does, and frankly the arguments that the normal people should be punished because of their government are stupid, but it’s just, not racism.
anticurrent@sh.itjust.works
on 25 Oct 09:40
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I wasn’t referring to racism. Race and Nationality are almost the same thing, people can’t chose in what community they were born in. and not everyone has the means to move.
This is the difference between political systems where one is really really bad but at least doesn’t regularly assassinate opponents in the most horrific ways, and allow people to speak their minds.
I don’t trust the US any further than I can throw it, but no matter how you look at it, it’s the lesser evil.
Hell, look at sports. If a Russian athlete wins you can pretty much disqualify them for doping without having tested them because they all do it and I feel sorry for them, I feel sorry for that situation. There is a reason (beyond this war) why Russian athletes weren’t allowed to compete at certain events, and it’s the insane amount of doping used by them. I’m sure these athletes don’t want to do this crap, but a state basically forces them to.
I can see the worry about similar issues with developers.
Replying because I need to think about how I’m going to vote for this comment and plan to come back later.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 09:34
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no matter their skin colour
Russia is very, very white. Overwhelmingly so.
This has nothing to do with skin colour.
Kronusdark@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 13:16
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I think given the current political situation this is the right call. No one knows what the Russian government might compel otherwise innocent devs to do.
That said, we (and I mean society, not any particular individual) should be mindful that we don’t slip into bigotry.
Linux Fundarion is based in America. It needs to follow its rules and politics. I guess a lot of things will happen after this. As something so important for open technology like It , should be based in a more open, mor asvanced in laws and neutral territory.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 15:16
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This is hardly the first time the core Linux code stack has been forked and independently developed. Seems like this is going to invite a Russia-specific development environment that just pulls in updates from the main branch and adds in Russia-internal development (which will likely then be copied by non-Russians and backloaded into the core Linux stack under someone else’s name, because why waste good dev work?)
But the argument appears to be anyone with a Russian-sounding name is getting removed from the core development team, until they can prove to the American team that they aren’t… spooks, I guess? Also
The driver code to which the dropped maintainers contributed remains in place.
So this isn’t such a high security risk that the code is being pulled (presumably because its been vetted and appears beyond repute). This is purely a CYA move to eliminate veterans on the team because they were forthright about their identities.
should be based in a more open, mor asvanced in laws and neutral territory.
Its not clear how a policy of booting people based on their surnames accomplishes this.
MCasq_qsaCJ_234@lemmy.zip
on 24 Oct 15:22
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I could mention all the forks that Linux currently has, please.
EarthShipTechIntern@lemm.ee
on 24 Oct 15:19
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Linus is from Finland. Not hard to remember reasons for aversion to Russian propaganda for anyone raised near it.
Blanketing the Linux Foundation as American based kind of sounds like you’re a Russian troll.
You would think someone from Finland would know better that, when you are so close to a power you don’t like, the best way to prosper is by keeping neutrality,… look at Finland in the 60s-00s, Singapore, Austria… or you choose to pick the Ukrainian, Filipino and Cuban path…
Strykker@programming.dev
on 25 Oct 00:42
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If you can sneak backdoors, removing one side, would not make the other side, even if you consider the good one, be even more able to sneak one too. In election tables, what guarantees transparency is everyone represented at the table, not banning one side.
But NSLs force them to do it, and prevent them from talking about it. This is a bigger risk than something like the xz attack, because the barrier of entry is so low
jagged_circle@feddit.nl
on 24 Oct 14:30
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With that logic, the US contributes should be expelled too. We have more examples of US folks being served NSLs than Russians.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 15:20
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Its an American-based venture, owned and operated by American businessmen. They’re not going to burn their own guys, even if some of them are spooks (no evidence that anyone on the core dev team is a spook, but crazy to think the FSB would have people in and the Five-Eyes guys wouldn’t).
I do wonder how long until we start seeing mainstream code-forks that span geopolitical regions. Will we have a Digital Iron Curtain, with BRICS countries doing their own FOSS branches independently of NATO block?
Many European companies canceled contracts with US companies because of the NSL risk. I don’t think the devide is NATO. The US laws are a threat to security and privacy everywhere
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 18:11
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Many European companies canceled contracts with US companies because of the NSL risk.
I’d be curious to see who they were. My guess is that they are relatively small and easy enough to circumvent without breaking ties with America as a whole.
But I’m not seeing Exxon, Boeing, or Microsoft pull out of Europe, despite being deeply embedded with sanctioned regimes.
Biden literally introduced legislation to prevent it because it was a mass exodus. The companies you mentioned are US companies. I mean EU companies won’t use US MSPs because of the risk
I’ve worked side by side with RU devs who were both personable and damned competent. Never were their tech skills in doubt, and I retain quite a bit of respect for those individuals.
I’d not do the same today explicitly because of the political and compliance implications. It’s unfortunate, but necessary.
Again, with open software that is not necessary… If we get to believe that argument, those potential “FSB” coders would be the ones who would notice if the CIA was trying to place a back door in the kernel too. Open Software is OPEN!!
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 16:23
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This coming from the brilliant mind who thinks Russia’s neighbors are better off neutral toward it and victim blames countries like Ukraine which have been invaded by it, routinely spreads pro-Russia propaganda on Lemmy and nothing else, and has suspiciously Russian-y broken English.
Edit: Also, as other commenters have correctly pointed out, Russian citizens being allowed to be maintainers of the Linux project has fuck-all to do with the actual principles of open software as defined either by the FSF or the OSI.
Ukraine was invaded after a coup (when elections was 11 months away and polls say would turned pro-western anyways in their typical rotation). Yes Finland, Switzerland and Austria were non NATO are prospered fine, I would say even thrived. Same as Singapore with China. Of course, you can take the Cuba route and bring the nuclear missiles from Moscow, surely US will leave it fine. Side the side you want, keep a strong army but don’t join any military alliance seems to be the recipe for success when you leave close to a power you don’t like.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 16:51
nextcollapse
I would say even thrived
Finland has to keep one of the largest militaries on Earth solely due to their proximity with Russia, and they barely fended them off in the 1940s. Ukraine was the last straw, and they decided to join NATO. Switzerland??? Are you fucking high? Go look at a fucking map and see where Switzerland is, holy shit. Austria is once again fully enclosed by NATO countries except a small border with Switzerland to the west.
I’m not even addressing the rest of the comment; citing Switzerland alone was too stupid for your worthless, propagandist drivel to be worth my time.
Usually countries have to decide between butter and guns (eco 101). Well, such “largest militaries on Earth” had it both! Like Switzerland, you do have to keep a strong military to dissuade, but aligning to a alliance when you are the spearhead is bad. Switzerland had made an alliance with France or Germany a century ago, would not have ended non invaded, 100% guaranteed.
I hope it makes your opinion unwelcome, come back when you grow up as a part of normal member of society.
Because noone actually added a pro-western opinion but rather rebutted your pro-russian tankie bs. And by bs i mean complete nonsense that fails to see a simple comparison of how west does not interfere and expand it’s territory on behalf of it’s neighbors through lies, sabotage and military, but russia does and has for decades. That’s the main reason why it’s neighbours have to spend on military instead of society growth, and now they have realised the tolerance or staying neutral does not work on country that has not grown as a respectful and healthy society member which is proven exactly by your comments.
Pretty sure you won’t be even bothered to read the whole comment and think it’s “huinya”, i know it because i live in a neighbouring country and i know it first hand it sucks to live next to russia.
Your entire comment is a bunch of bullshit and straight up propaganda.
ChairmanMeow@programming.dev
on 24 Oct 17:21
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Would they? The XZ utils backdoor was only discovered by what can only be described as an insanely attentive developer who happened to be testing something unrelated and who happened to notice a small increase in the startup time of the library, and was curious enough to go and figure out why.
Can you explain me why Linux waited till the very last moment of the Executive Order 14071’s grace period (the order is from April 2022!) to apply it? Obviously he trusted those people, or the verification system of the open system! Imagine you don’t like a political party for bad… fair enough, so you ban their representatives from voting table… don’t you think, that incentivizes the other party committing fraud? In these open system things, the more eyes the better, I don’t care if commies, libertarians, ultra-right or whatever, the diversity is what keep it in check…
Slow walking compliance is normal. It keeps assets liquid and processes & people in place as long as possible before making changes. It also prevents the cost of changing back and forth if a new rule is struck down before its final date.
What will happen often is that a compliant procedure will be developed as soon as possible, but no changes will be made until absolutely necessary. That gives the organization maximum time to figure out other routes of compliance, fight the rule and continue at pace before they change.
Is so hard to believe Open Source should be open? If there were a malicious intent, others would have been able to detect it in no time… because it is ‘open’! If the open system works, it should not matter there are CIA or FSB, commies or libertarians “infiltrated” making the code.
If those Russians had been in that position is because their contributions have been stellar, otherwise they would never have gotten there. Their contribution and effort has been robbed from them just because they mothers give them birth in the wrong coordinates.
Linus is a god for many of us… with human traits though… His Finland, although historically robbed by Russia, achieved its highest splendor during the decades of neutrality, not by fiercely antagonizing one or the other power… same as Switzerland, Ireland, Austria and Singapore.
All this started with a US law so he has to comply with. However, instead of those unhelpful comments, he should say that in open software it is unwarranted… not to mention countries can get sanctions for their actions, but not civilians that cannot choose where they are born.
If we are to believe that Moscow is trying to put something into the kernel “undetected”… gosh, what an organization based on the US with a so pro-establishment leader may be doing so? For real, now I am starting having my doubts on the kernel!
Alphane_Moon@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 15:53
nextcollapse
Linus is a god for many of us… with human traits though… His Finland, although historically robbed by Russia, achieved its highest splendor during the decades of neutrality, not by fiercely antagonizing one or the other power… same as Switzerland, Ireland, Austria and Singapore.
Ukraine was neutral before 2014, that didn’t help avoid an invasion. Not to mention they occupied Moldova and Georgia before that too.
They have not been able to attack the Baltic nations or Poland because they joined NATO.
Neutrality word salad is only for the ignorant or those who support russian imperialism.
Ukraine was awkwardly neutral (it was more a pro-anti rotation govs) before 2014 true… why US senators and Nuland ended there fanning a coup and ended handpicking the leaders? The invasion happened in 2022, 4 month after Russia send a letter to NATO to keep off Ukraine.
Russia, as imperialistic aims it may have, have no intentions, not capabilities of invading Poland, Lithuania or Finland. Finland was no NATO and not even the USSR touch it. Mexico’s since Obrador is highly critical of the US, but wisely, choose to calm things down rather than going the Cuban and Venezuela route… see what works best. Is it fair? No, but one has to be pragmatic.
Ninjasftw@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 18:11
nextcollapse
Finland was no NATO and not even the USSR touch it
Yes because they had one of the largest regional armies. And why do you think that is? Maybe because they already had Russia invade twice within living memory
Worth noting that they stayed out of Nato until it was obvious their lunatic neighbour with “imperialistic aims” wouldn’t stop invading others…
Russia, as imperialistic aims it may have, have no intentions, not capabilities of invading Poland, Lithuania or Finland.
Hey, I’ve heard that before in 2014. You know the three day invasion?
And because I really think you are a troll: the best part is, NATO has yet to set foot on the ground, while Russia is running to rogue countries like NK.
Besides, Ukraine being “awkwardly neutral” did not stop Putler from invading, did it?
You use a lot of words, but a foundation of your “facts” are blatantly missing.
Putin invaded after the US fomented coup. before that, Ukraine just kept alternating pro-western pro-russian governments, the coup was done to prevent that alternation (even though the pro-western was going to win in 11 months, but that was not enough for US). Russia, could just not see being kick out of Crimea by the US with a coup. Imagine Cuba gets the capability of kicking US out of Guantanamo… US would just declare the Guantanamo “lease” as US land in a second. Lets not mention the vital or historical importance Crimea has for Russia that Guantanamo does not for the US.
I am ranting! Linux should be open for all, we should not have fallen this is Pro-Western, or Pro-China, or this or that, it should remain OPEN! We’d just caused Linux to be viewed as the payment messaging SWIFT and a sided institution so others will look for an alternative. Yes, today, after 2 decades, I am a bit Linux fan. I understand Linus had to apply the Presidential Order, he could just point his disagreement and even proposing the foundation to move to Switzerland or Mexico, but he did not; he did not offer his support for the people he dismissed after years and years of working for him.
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 21:51
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You’re definitely speaking to someone who’s being paid 15 rubles a comment to post here.
nickwitha_k@lemmy.sdf.org
on 24 Oct 22:07
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Finland was no NATO and not even the USSR touch it.
If you omit the middle of the 20th century, sure. The Finns declared independence from the Russian Empire in 1917, under the approval of the Bolsheviks’ Declaration of the Rights of the Peoples of Russia. In 1934, Finland and the USSR reaffirmed a non-aggression pact for 10 years. In 1939, after penning a deal with Hitler to carve up Europe between the Nazis and the USSR, Stalin demanded that Finland, who had maintained a stance of neutrality, cede territory for military use and, when they refused, ordered shelling and invasion.
Neutrality or even open trade did not prevent the USSR from invading then, not did handing over nukes save Ukraine from invasion in 2014.
At this point I’m just hanging out in this thread to block people with replies so awful I don’t think we’ll ever have the possibility to have a civil discussion about anything whatsoever, ever.
It doesn’t even matter what “side” people take, it’s just 80% garbage here now.
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 18:50
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you lost me at this
If there were a malicious intent, others would have been able to detect it in no time… because it is ‘open’!
Executive Order 14071 is more than 2 yrs old… Linus waited till the grace deadline (in 1 week) to apply it, obviously he found it non necessary all this time and he trusted those Russians until the grace period expires. No, not so ignorant, nor a troll. And yes, Open systems is easy to detect maliciousness, better yet, you can pin point who contributed what for everyone to see.
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 20:20
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blah blah blah. you’re obviously trolling or have no idea how FOSS is developed.
if FOSS is so secure then why is it a popular attack vector for Russian and Chinese espionage?
just because something is public doesn’t make it inherently more secure, I’m honestly disappointed in your dangerous and clearly flawed take on FOSS.
FOSS is great, but it’s really no more and no less secure than closed sourced software.
So why Linus waited 2 years and a half to apply the Order until the grace period expires? He obviously does not like Russia, but he did trust those individuals (or system)!
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 21:18
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I don’t care and I’m not going to argue the point you want to make because it’s frivolous.
he’s the maintainer, he can do whatever the fuck he wants whenever the fuck he wants and to whomever the fuck he wants on his project.
rottingleaf@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 08:29
nextcollapse
Removing people from CREDITS looks like someone should have been mindful before acting.
They were removed from MAINTAINERS, which is what identifies the people responsible for maintaining a piece of code, a subsystem of Linux, not the credits, which is encoded in the git commit history.
Not gonna lie, this is kinda a refutation of the whole open source model. I was led to believe that it shouldn’t matter who writes the code, as long the code is able to be interrogated/corrected.
I think pressure should be put on the US to divest from genocide. Sanctions from our allies would be helpful… Surely with the international court declaring Israel’s actions a war crime it is easy to make a case for it.
Our election system has fucked over anti-zionists and needs reforming, which is happening, but not by this November.
Ranked choice voting is gaining popularity, electoral college is under pressure and people are fed up with voter suppression and gerrymandering and things are moving in a positive direction on the local and state levels.
Russia -> FSB -> operated by Russian -> contributing to Linux -> Bad
USA -> NSA -> operated by Americans -> authored SELinux -> Bad
Should this logic work? Hell no. It’s simply prejudice that against any nationals that they have ill intent of doing something because their country do something bad. Just like a child can’t choose their parents, a citizen can’t choose their nation at born.
The wrench attack argument can be applied to any nationals too, by anyone.
Only if this standard is applied universally. I agree.
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 16:59
nextcollapse
You know what would be a great way to establish that standard?
GETTING YOUR FUCKING ASSES THE FUCK OUT OF UKRAINE!!!
And I’m only suggesting this because every day you don’t, will absolutely be a horrifying misery for every Russian, further destroying the fabric of the country and guaranteeing the aftermath will be less recoverable.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 09:27
nextcollapse
…you only want Russia to stop genociding Ukraine if all other war stops? Until then you want the genocide to continue?
The US occupying 1/3 of Syria and Iraq for far longer is ok though.
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 16:56
nextcollapse
In comparison? Yeah.
Russia, the dumb drunk fucks they are, even tried to rush our forces, because they were outnumbered 50:1 but apparently Russians can’t do math and don’t understand you don’t fuck with Americans unless you’re 5000:1, or at least don’t try to charge joint forces with a bunch of morons running across the desert.
Yep, the US is so powerful that is why Assad still in power and all regions with large population are kept away from US.
Holodomor is highly disputed if is man-made. Specially when you consider Russia had a equally devastated famine at the very same time (Soviet famine of 1930–1933) and another a decade prior (Russian famine of 1921–1922). But of course, we only care about the mostly Ukraine affected one Holodomor one (1932-33) because it fits our anti-Russian agenda. As a rural guy, let me tell you, ironically, when famine strikes, the ones who suffer the most are farmers (a long story to explain here why)… Ukraine and parts of non industrialized Soviet Union all suffered famine and millions upon millions died, no distinctions if they spoke Russian or Ukrainian.
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 00:40
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Holodomor is highly disputed if is man-made.
Jesus, the oil companies would love you!
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 14:56
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Just putting this here so it’s above that absolutely disgusting, genocide-denying propaganda from polar:
How many of these Russian maintainers were in Ukraine?
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 17:05
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Don’t care.
They can still write and submit, they just can’t be maintainers, because every second there’s a single uninvited Russian in Ukraine, Russia should go fuck itself.
Don’t know, but if they want to avoid that backlash there’s literally 1 person they can remove to fix it.
Good idea, I expect you hold the same standard for all Americans, French, Israelis, Chinese, and Palestinians too
Or let me guess, Germans in 1945 didn’t deserve the cruelty they got from the red army either?
You’re right, they didn’t. Shockingly, being cruel to civilians and conscripts isn’t cool. If “lashing out against oppressors” is okay then I’m sure you supported what happened in Rwanda? What about the Khmer Rouge killing foreigners?
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 26 Oct 13:36
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I’m sorry, Russia celebrates their cruelty to civilians on a yearly basis.
Russians are not the Russian state, I’m well aware of what Russian(and don’t forget other Eastern Bloc militaries did at the time). My relatives were arrested for protesting in the Prague Spring. Actually, one of those relatives runs an organization for political prisoners. This kind of reciprocal cruelty will just make it more common. Just look at the Yugoslav wars, or the eastern front in WW2 if you don’t believe me. Or every war that’s happened in the middle east or south east asia for the past 50 years. Actually a lot of soviet oppression of the western republics (Ukraine, Causes, etc) was justified based on the cruelties nationalists did from those countries while fighting on the side of the Germans in WW2. This nationalist/xenophobic “revenge” on civilians is evil. (And rests on the same premise as was used to justify 9/11, collective guilt)
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 26 Oct 14:49
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If the cruelty had stopped, I would agree revenge is inappropriate.
So I’ll stop wishing for, the painful death of Russians, and even donating to buy drones to kill Russian soldiers and wish for the best outcome for all Russian people.
5 seconds after they leave Ukraine.
They have to learn a lesson, and unfortunately Russians only speak the language of blood. Proof cited: the invasion of Ukraine.
Don’t know how feasible is a fork of the kernel, but if given a choice, I would choose the distro with the kernel that does not ban people from any nationality every time.
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 18:46
nextcollapse
you mean like the Ubuntu fork North Korea uses?
I hear they’re friends with Russia now, maybe they’ll share.
Good! So why the incendiary comments Linus made on Russians. It is so hard to say something like this:
"I have to expel them from the project due to a US law forced us to do it. However, I had trust on them all these years and they contributed a lot to the project (that is why they were working here). Now, I am against the law because we should not discriminate people for the origin. Moreover, the claim that they can harm the software is unwarranted because it is OPEN and many eyes are on it. Finally, this harms the entire Linux project because now makes it an “American"project rather than an global one. Sad times.”
I am also against Russian aggression on Ukraine! But would no ban any Russian because of that. The same I am completely against US occupying Iraq and 1/3 of Syria, yet never would occur to me not to hire an American because what their country does. I really don’t understand why is so hard to understand for Lemmy community the double standard.
jol@discuss.tchncs.de
on 24 Oct 17:11
nextcollapse
You can get big fines if you don’t comply with sanctions though. And in the end Linux is an American foundation.
Linus was still an ass, though. All this drama is 100% his fault.
Agreed. I would comply (US’s courts can be very hard with you if you don’t) but you can dismiss those Russians with honor and thank them for their contribution. Then, you can consider to move the foundation to a more free environment (Switzerland, Mexico, Spain,…)
TheTechnician27@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 17:29
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Strange. In another comment just minutes ago, you were tacitly blaming Ukraine for being invaded, Kevinovich from Florida Oblast.
Insults apart (to Russians, Floridians and Lemmy community) , I do not blame Ukrainians for anything, specially when they are the biggest victims here. I blame the secret cabinets who decides their destiny for power, let those decisions are from Washington or Moscow, but let me tell you for sure are no from Kyiv. Now, historically, if you live close to a mayor power you do not like much (think of Ukraine or Cuba), the best is to have a strong army but never to join another distant power thinking it will save you, they will just use you.
YourNetworkIsHaunted@awful.systems
on 25 Oct 01:04
collapse
So when Ukrainians try to push for closer alignment with the EU it’s a Washington-backed color revolution and thus is no different than Russia rolling into the literal tanks.
Like, even if you’re not a Russian troll you’re still adopting a conspiracy theory that completely ignores any agency the Ukrainian people have.
Moreover, the claim that they can harm the software is unwarranted because it is OPEN and many eyes are on it.
The xz attack was an intentional backdoor put into a project that was “OPEN and many eyes are on it.” Also, it was discovered due to the way it was executing and not because someone found it in the source. The original assumption has been proven wrong.
Who’s boot? Linus’s or Putin’s? I’m assuming you’re on Russia’s side by your instance. It’s weird how constituent you people are. Literally anything, you’re defending Russia. If the US was invading a sovereign nation to take it under its influence, I’m sure you’d be against that. As would I, because I’m morally consistent. You somehow justify Russia’s actions yet are against the west expanding and exerting their influence. Care to enlighten me to the difference?
And before you answer: no, Ukraine is not part of Russia and did not start the invasion. Even under the USSR it wasn’t part of Russia. It was a member state of a union of states, as the name implies. Russia does not have any right to it.
russian economy after over 1k days of war is evaporized and putin now is Xis little dog. so if we all work together now nobody will remember a country called russia in 100 years. nations are just a phantasy and it wont hurt to let go of some.
The Russian economy after over 1k days of war is evaporizedhas evaporated and now Putin is Xi’s little dog. so If we all work together, nobody will remember a country called Russia in 100 years. Nations are just a phantasyfantasy, and it won’t hurt to let go of some.
I think it’s scary that the Russian Federation will probably “Balkanize” if Ukraine won’t capitulate, and with how many nuclear weapons it has, that’s terrifying to consider.
Then again, they probably don’t work very well given what we’ve seen about the performance of the so-called “2nd/3rd most powerful army on Earth”. But even a few potentially in the hands of an even more unhinged maniac than Putin is unsettling, to say the least.
rottingleaf@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 12:47
nextcollapse
We’ve seen missiles taking off and getting intact to all parts of Ukraine, then exploding.
Their precision was far worse than advertised by Russian state propaganda, but that’s irrelevant.
A nuclear weapon doesn’t have to be more precise than needed to hit an average county, in US terms.
Also the Russian economy has done nothing of the sort. Its good, nice things dependent on Western companies have died, say, cars production.
But even in their advertised form sanctions work on the span of decades, not years or months.
The performance of the Russian military was what you say in 2022, but now it is good enough for Russia to be making advances in Ukraine now. Ukraine is bleeding.
This is easily solvable by Western troops being sent to the grinder (one can do that unofficially - everyone does) on a bigger scale. For whatever reason this doesn’t happen.
About performance of the Russian military … I’m not sure you realize how much experience matters. Humans are soft, unreliable creatures. A learning structure created by most experienced, intelligent, honest humans will decay over time if it’s not checked against reality, that being war. And war against a military close to its equal, not against someone much weaker.
Russian military in 2022 was very different from what it is now. So was Ukrainian military, but like I said, Ukraine is bleeding.
My point is that both militaries in experience (not talking about anything else) will be among the best in the world when this war ends.
A nuclear weapon doesn’t have to be more precise than needed to hit an average county, in US terms.
Yes, I know how nuclear weapons work, and usually a MIRV delivers warheads to airburst over military bases and population centers.
Also the Russian economy has done nothing of the sort. Its good, nice things dependent on Western companies have died, say, cars production.
I didn’t make this claim that the Russian economy has evaporated. The person I responded to did.
What I actually think is that Putin is largely fucked if he can’t convince Xi to create and enforce using an alternative to petro-dollars and SWIFT to BRICS.
Even if the North Koreans he’s recently imported help him take Kyiv, he will need money to keep his proverbial boot heel on a guaranteed drawn out Ukrainian insurgency that will never let his army sleep.
Drawn out insurgency is something that won’t happen the way you are talking about it, Chechens have already tried.
Admittedly, it was harder to feel compassion to them for the general population outside of Chechnya, because those “revered freedom fighters” even in the years of their “almost independence” would have people lynched on the streets, do kidnappings and slavery and what not. They were similar to ISIS.
Our world is, ahem, very complex. Propaganda may be clearly insincere, but match the general direction of what the population knows and how it feels.
Getting back to Ukraine - I feel that Putin’s goal is not occupying whole of Ukraine, it’s making it subservient.
About him being largely fucked - I remember people in 2008 saying that the whole of the Russian regime are dumb thieves and are largely fucked. I wouldn’t such things about people holding such amounts of power for so many years.
well the fall of the udssr was a joy so i expect part 2 to be great aswell.
from what i understand the russians also want to buy mcdonalds, iphone and porsche and not live gulag life. when hitler was dead all of a sudden my fellow germans werent into nazi shit much. once putin gets to eat bullets chances are good russians lose interest in killing their neighbours. stupid russians.
humblebun@sh.itjust.works
on 25 Oct 18:53
collapse
russians also want to buy mcdonalds, iphone and porsche and not live gulag life.
First and foremost, Russians do not want to kill Ukrainians. But that’s like saying that people do not want to pay 40% of their income on rent and utilities. Nobody cares what people want
Honest answer, fear of Russia. Baltic states and Poland know first hand that given a chance Russia would gobble them up so they focused on getting into NATO and EU while Russia was still weak.
Moldova, Ukraine and Belarus stuck with CIS (Russian sphere of influence) and it hasn’t paid off for them. Ukraine got what Baltic states and Poland feared (which is why they’re one of the biggest supporters of Ukraine) and Moldova went “oh fuck, Russia can’t be trusted” as they decided to go down the path of leaving the CIS and joining EU and NATO.
The countries who decided to embrace the west got a better deal than the ones who decided to stick with Russia.
I really hope this thread is filled with bots because otherwise you have really hit the bottom. The thread is filled with racism and bigotry, and it’s allowed only because it’s against russians…
lazyViking@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 19:47
nextcollapse
Blanket insults to Russians would be bigotry, as “Russian” is a nationality comprised of many ethnicities, not a “race”. Words have meanings.
So, yes, let’s not ostracize Russians carte blanche. Rather, let’s do that to those who support Putin and his wars of aggression and genocide of Ukrainians.
threaded - newest
Maintainers is a unnecessarily nice word for trolls.
Shit-in-the-poolers
He obviously meant the people commenting online, not the maintainers
? The maintainers are being banned
And non-maintainers are trollishly trying to circumvent or reverse the ban.
Absolutely based as fuck as usual.
"Ok, lots of Russian trolls out and about.
It's entirely clear why the change was done, it's not getting reverted, and using multiple random anonymous accounts to try to "grass root" it by Russian troll factories isn't going to change anything.
And FYI for the actual innocent bystanders who aren't troll farm accounts - the "various compliance requirements" are not just a US thing.
If you haven't heard of Russian sanctions yet, you should try to read the news some day. And by "news", I don't mean Russian state-sponsored spam.
As to sending me a revert patch - please use whatever mush you call brains. I'm Finnish. Did you think I'd be supporting Russian aggression? Apparently it's not just lack of real news, it's lack of history knowledge too."
fuck yes. fuck russia. fuck russians.
You should approach the same fuck first approach to Israel and the us with what they are doing in Gaza and Lebanon while you are at it. That would show your adherence to standard behaviour in the light of current genocides going on.
Sure Russia is bad so fuck Russia but do you have the balls or boobs to say fuck Israel ?
Uhh…what are we talking about again?
Moving goal posts!
Whataboutism 😂
Wow they really ran out of shit to say huh?
Not much left at the bottom of that barrel but some world salad with Russian dressing.
Yes, fuck Israel and fuck Russia. Not sure why I’m responding to this dumb bait, but here we are. It’s not a straw man argument when both countries are run by literal human feces
It’s even funnier when we realize Russia is possibly the reason there even is an Israel-Palestine conflict.
Jews fled Russia between 1880 and 1920. While a large majority emigrated to the United States, some turned to Zionism. In 1882, members of Bilu and Hovevei Zion made what came to be known the First Aliyah to Palestine, then a part of the Ottoman Empire.
The Tsarist government sporadically encouraged Jewish emigration. In 1890, it approved the establishment of “The Society for the Support of Jewish Farmers and Artisans in Syria and Palestine”[51] (known as the “Odessa Committee” headed by Leon Pinsker) dedicated to practical aspects in establishing agricultural Jewish settlements in Palestine.
Source
So they encouraged and supported those settlements.
And I’m pretty sure they indirectly triggered the ongoing conflict, where hamas attacked israel in 2023 october.
Why should they do that in the comments section under a post about Russia?
If you think caring about one tragedy means ignoring another, that’s a ‘you’ problem.
People who actually care about human suffering don’t play the ‘whataboutism’ game—because it’s not a contest, it’s a crisis. Your deflection isn’t advocacy; it’s just lazy, performative outrage disguised as moral high ground.
.
Those were words, yes.
How the fuck you were able to mash them together like that is beyond me.
GPTs are degrading
.
Man, it’s like you spend centuries brutalizing all your neighbors, if not outright conquering them and enforcing holocausts, and this is the thanks you get!
Putin:
No, it is appreciated. Just not in the way you want it to be.
No. Not fuck Russians as a blanket policy. The Russian government is full of corrupt and evil bastards, but it's certain that most Russians are the same as most other citizens; They just want to go about their business.
I'm in favor of blocking the Russian accounts, they're probably mostly state actors. The ones that aren't actively sabotaging the codebase are unfortunate causalities, but it's better than the alternative.
I’m really sad about this. There is a lot of computer science talent in Russia, and I’m very very upset that It Has Come To This.
But it very clearly has.
If it makes you feel any better, experience (and a bit of intuition) tells me that this isn't permanent. Though, it is probably only going to end after their government stops fucking up (or collapses... again...). It might be a while :/
I think it wouldn’t be bad to have the Russian devs back once the war is over, bar any other circumstances.
Most russians support the genocide. Fuck russians.
Citation needed.
It’s not difficult to find if you try just a little bit.
norc.org/…/new-survey-finds-most-russians-see-ukr…
Most Russians don’t have easy access to non-state propaganda media outlets. If they only have false information, they can’t be expected to form an educated opinion.
If you haven’t seen it, I recommend taking a look at a recent post from the NYT Magazine about a Russian defector. They also made a 5 part podcast miniseries told from his perspective. NYT recently put old podcast episodes behind the paywall, not sure how to access them elsewhere, but I’ll include a link to reference if you want to look it up.
nytimes.com/…/ukraine-russia-war-deserter.html
open.spotify.com/episode/7JhUrPv08azSKIXqSvkPIV
This is actually completely false.
Until very recently, both Youtube and telegram have been available censorship free. Almost every russian was able to access “non-state propaganda media outlets” in under ~10 seconds on their smartphones.
NYT times is bad source on russia. They routinely whitewash russian crimes. They often leverage russian opposition sources without any critical analysis.
YouTube and Telegram are not sources of authoritative or factual information either, if anything they are even less reliable. YouTube alone is probably filled with more hours of misinformation than all news media on the planet.
The fact you’re even suggesting them as some sort of alternative to get reliable info shows you don’t intend to have a real discussion.
You are either ignorant or you have an agenda (or perhaps you don’t want to consider that you were wrong).
You were able to access authoritative russian-langauge “non-state propaganda media outlets” on YT at least as far back as the early 2010s.
TV Rain , a generally well regarding Russian opposition channel opened their YT account on Apr 13, 2010, with the oldest listed video being with some of the first clips appearing in May 2010.
DW on Russian (DW на русском) also started their YT channel in 2010 with clips appearing in the same year.
Telegram did longer to get authoritative sources, but you can get BBC on it. And I am willing to be you good money that the BBC Russian service YT account appeared closer to 2010.
I am sorry but you are wrong and you don’t understand what you are talking about.
.
.
So, basically it’s enough to say “Fuck Russia, Fuck Russians” here and it gains you massive support.
Seriously?
First, how does this fuck Russia the state?
Second, what everyday Russians have to do with it? What justifies sneaking in hate messages to a diverse ethnic group with no single ideology?
Saying “Fuck Russians” is about the same as “Fuck Jews” because Israel has done bad things. This is not okay.
It’s just people can’t do anything to stop Russia or at least help Ukraine. Although the latter is possible, but it’d require some effort. Writing and upvoting “fuck Russia” on social media is easy and that makes them feel better.
You feel good typing all that schlock out?
You have no arguments and you are angry because of that. No, I don’t feel anything in particular about it. Maybe you do, you wrote an aggressive comment, you “defended” yourself, you must be very proud!
Triggered 🤡
Are you… proud that you write nonsense that triggers people? Is that what provides you with a sense of pride and accomplishment? Are you trying to humiliate me for your behavior? That’s fucked up, mate.
The important thing is that you feel superior to everyone. that’s all that matters.
I’m sorry you feel that way, but I think there’s been a misunderstanding. I’m not trying to feel superior to anyone, I’m just expressing my frustration with how some people seem to be more focused on making empty statements online rather than actually doing something to help. I don’t think one needs to be superior to feel frustrated.
Yes. Fuck Russia and fuck Russians. Slava Ukraini!
Propaganda goes both ways
Well, if your state is breaching international law, deporting children, using artillery to reduce cities to ashes, sending hundreds of thousands of its own citizens to their death and allying itself with fucking north korea to “denazify” a country while swinging its nuclear dick around…
then maybe it’s time to leave the country or accept that people with a russian mail address are persona non grata in the rest of the world. It’s not their first war of aggression, and enough is enough.
fuck russia. fuck russians.
and fuck hospital- and refugee camp bombing zionists btw. (not all jews are zionists!)
As an Armenian I want to hear what you have to say to me, directly, about Azerbaijan which is not sanctioned, is not punished and is treated as a normal country. And by extension Turkey, which has been a NATO member since 3 years after NATO inception, and has only become less genocidal and less Nazi since then!
But since you are using “international law” as something good while it has been successfully used to justify many genocides, I guess I won’t be satisfied by your answer.
put your strawman argument back where it belongs. Putin and his henchmen belong in front of the IOC, and the russians with their apathetic stance towards their government which enables this garbage behavior need to turn their state around; that is something noone else can do for them.
as long as there is no resistance movement that has strong support in the russian population, i will say “fuck russians” all day long.
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wow, a personal insult is all you got? sorry, but that is definitly not a discourse i wish to continue, it’s simply not worth my time.
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Leave it to a Russian to resort to personal insults once their argument falls apart:
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/ee383f5c-e82f-466e-8da6-d9f1455fdade.jpeg">
At the very least, a strong majority of russians are supporters of genocidal imperialism, however a solid argument could be made that it’s more like an overwhelming majority.
This holds true across all demographic segments; income, education, age, region, rural vs urban. You may have a situation where the support for genocidal imperialism is a mere majority (e.g. younger cohorts), while others approach an almost absolute majority (older cohorts), but the majority always holds no matter how you slice and dice it.
This is backed by almost all quantitative and qualitative research conducted over past ~35 years. I can share a pretty funny anecdote about how an allegedly opposition minded russian (who gets quoted in the NYT) had to twist his own quantitative findings to present a better picture of russian society.
Even recent qualitative research run by opposition minded russian researchers shows a damning picture among of even allegedly moderate russians (in russian, I can share it).
A strong majority of everyday russian support the extermination of Ukrainian culture and sending everyone who disagrees to a torture camp. And this is not limited to Ukraine, they have a similar attitude to all nations that freed themselves from cancer that was the USSR.
Unfortunately many are ignorant of the nature of russian society or prefer to reject difficult information (it’s just social media hate).
Torvalds is a Finn and he understand these things and he doesn’t have the liberty of shying away from reality.
When compare “Fuck Russians” to “Fuck Jews”; what exactly are you referring to? Russian as in the ethnicity or Russian as in the nationality. This is actually a pretty important point.
So what you are saying is we should nuke Russia because they are all cartoonishly evil fanatics of genocide.
I never said cartoonishly evil.
The term I used was “genocidal imperialist”. Supporting extermination of Ukrainiain culture, language and identity with the goal of territorial expansion. A belief in ethno-national hierarchy system that sees certain ethnicities/nationalities as inferior and not having the right to self-determination.
Such beliefs have a strong majority support among the russian population (if not overwhelming majority support).
I guess cartoons for adults then. What’s your solution? To me it sounds like dehumanising propaganda that push for indiscriminate extermination…
For you these are cartoons for adults. For those who have deal with russian imperialism, it’s reality.
A tangent of sorts; do you think you would be able to guess the number genocides conducted by the russians since just in the last 100 years? Without doing a web search.
You might be able to count the big ones, but I am curious what do you think your chance of guessing correctly would be?
Note: I don’t know the exact number (I can name a list of course). I am just curious what you think about this thought experiment.
To get to a solution, you need to at least recognize the problem. Things like not engaging in historical revisionism. Not rejecting any and all research findings unless they paint russian society in a way that reflects how you want the world to be.
No I don’t think I would. Other than my ignorance about the facts themselves, there’s the issue that I don’t have a precise definition of genocide in mind.
I’d probably have the best chance by saying 0 and hoping the definition of Genocide is so narrow it doesn’t really apply to shit.
And I’d give me a 30% chance.
Tangent asides, I am under no impression that the Russian Oligarchy now, the Zar before, the URRS in between, has excerted power in oppressive way just like any other country has done and stopped doing only in the face of new ways to accrue power.
And because in all those instances, from China, to the USA, to all of Europe, through history, people were pushed and pulled into believing all sort of crazy stuff, such as “the others” being inferior, evil, a threat or all of the above, I doesn’t really tell me much that the polupation that is subjected to a long lasting propaganda apparatus is affected by such propaganda.
I go as far as doubting I would be able to see past it if myself I was born in that situation.
I wouldn’t be able to answer accurately either.
The definition of genocide is an interesting one. I have a DIY definition that may not be listed in the human rights charts, but has what I would argue a rather lucid quality to it.
“Actions against you specifically, your immediate and extended family and your broader ethno-national group that make you wonder if the russians want to destroy you.”
On some level, I do agree with what you’re saying about the role of oppression and propaganda.
But how do you know this is the primary cause? What if it’s a choice the russians want to make?
It’s unfortunately not unheard of for whole nations (i.e. close to or at overwhelming majority support level) to support and engage in genocidal imperialism. Arguably, one would only continue at this path if they have the benefit of people white-washing their actions, no?
The reason I brought up choice earlier is that I do not believe russians are “inherently” genocidal or that they are not capable of change. This would be a ridiculous argument. I do believe that they do want to change, they like being genocidal imperialists.
And they will continue to do so until there is pushback (they get treated like they treat others) and less people buy into their white-washing propaganda.
This is not a cartoon for adults.
Framed in this way (assuming a population completely corrupted by propaganda) it becomes a matter of responsibility, not unlike what we already faced in germany.
I believe the proper course of action, in this instance and for posterity alike, is focusing and who is knowingly engaging in propaganda, and not who is being fed a false narrative.
It’s a broad answer and it leaves very little room for proportionate retaliation, but it’s the only approach, I believe, that foster progress and rightfully frame the issue of division and conflict in a tangible cause and effect dialectic.
If we now say, “Russian has let themselves be convinced to behave like monsters, therefore we must tread them as ones”, all future wars can and will be framed in this way. If we focus and the root causes, if we condemn manipulation of information, uneven education as among the greatest, most unacceptable, criminal act, I can see a world where at the very least, if you behave like a monster that’s out of your own “disposition”.
I would require some data from a person who likely wouldn’t say the same about countries backing Turkey (and by extension Azerbaijan) and Israel.
journals.sagepub.com/doi/…/20531680221108328 meduza.io/…/a-kogda-uzhe-pobeda-to-nasha-budet www.jiia.or.jp/en/column/…/russia-fy2022-01.html
I specially provided a selection of lesser know research to avoid the usual arguments about “but how can you do polling in a totalitarian state”.
Turns out, you can. And the findings show that preference falsification (e.g. a russian saying that they support the invasion of Ukraine, when they really don’t) is minor and does not change the real picture; that at the very least a strong majority of russians are genocidal imperialists.
I didn’t say a lot of people don’t support it. But that’d be in parity with a lot of Americans supporting invasion of Iraq or Israel’s crimes. Which makes them similar genocidal imperialists. So genocidal imperialism is normal in your “civilized world”, you are doing it.
That injustice would be responsible, by the way, for a certain percentage of people answering something not because they support the war, but because they hate all those virtue-signaling jerks who support many other wars which go unpunished, with those jerks also residing in states where their political position doesn’t cost them fines or jail. I don’t like hypocrisy as well.
And it’s funny, another guy just talked about “apathetic stance”, and you now talk about “totalitarian state”, and both are used to blame Russians, while they are mutually contradictory. If a state is totalitarian, then any stance taken without a suicide belt (and most taken with it) doesn’t give you any immediate results. And it is.
I’m not going to argue that the majority of neurotypical people will support a war their state starts. If you are from the USA, yours did with much bigger euphoria than Russians in 2022.
This is pretty tired whataboutism w.r.t US and Iraq.
The Iraq equivalent would be American annexing Basra state, banned arabic and forcing everyone to speak with a Texan accent and eat pork chops.
All the while sending Arabic speaker to dungeons and having state TV with goons laughing about how they caught a local Iraq women speaking Arabic and sent her to a dungeon.
What bloody “equivalent”? I’m talking about literal US invasion of Iraq which has killed more Iraqis than Russia has Ukrainians in the same amount of time.
They don’t call it an invasion in your land of the free? Or they really think that was normal and somehow different from 2022-now?
But we can do Iraq for your analogy too. When Saddam invaded Iran with pretty land-grabbing nationalist goals, they’d do a lot of fucked up shit of this kind, and they were supported by the West. Iranians have fought back, and that’s why despite hating the Islamic regime, they have no illusions about the West too.
I want to ask you another thing - do you realize that the mafia group in control of Russia got to the point of no opposition and ability to invade, for example, Ukraine, because from the very beginning it was supported by the West against democratic forces in Russia?
Yeltsin’s coup in 1993 was supported by the West. Oh, yes, his opponents were very scary, some “red-brown” mix of goosestepping neo-Nazis and Stalinists. But there’s one little problem - those obviously unpleasant people would refrain from violence and try to solve the crisis via peaceful means till the very storming of parliament (where they were, ahem, the majority).
Probably half of the Russian elites have emigrated to Western countries by now with their stolen money ; were that process not as welcome from the receiving countries, maybe it wouldn’t be their main goal, and maybe that would have lead to an environment where Russia’s elites can possibly change.
For you, extermination of Ukrainian identity in the occupied territories is OK. For me it’s not.
And at any rate, I don’t buy your “whataboutism” about Iraq. You don’t care about killed Iraqi civilians just you like you don’t care about Ukrainiains killed by Russians.
No, I do not believe in russian victimhood narratives.
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I wonder what your sources are, yes.
Talking to many, many Russians on the ground, I certainly don’t see the picture you’re presenting. The absolute majority of Russian youth I know is anti-war and anti-Putin, with only a few exceptions; among older generations there is more support for Putin, but it often boils down to “who else can keep Russia from crumbling in these trying times?” - a flawed argument, but again, not coming from bloodlust or an appetite for war. Maintaining of the war is seen by them as more of a necessity, and victory as a condition to save the country from collapse.
Even the government tries to veil it into “we’re against the Nazi regime of Ukraine, not against Ukrainians”, because Ukrainians are absolutely seen as brotherly people, and the fact they die is tragic to most. The blatant “let’s kill Ukrainian pigs” position is seen as cringe at best, and is likely to call a punch in the face.
Fair point on ethnicity vs nationality, thanks, and I’d like to explore it. Whenever the matter of Russians comes up, people rarely make the distinction. For example, when I commented on ethnic Russians getting more access to their own culture in Latvia thanks to EU intervention and acceptance of Russians as an ethnic minority, people made little distinction between ethnic Russians (including kindergarten kids who just happened to be born to two Russians) and Russian soldiers on the battlefield, ready to conquer the country.
But here, really, it doesn’t alter my point. We shouldn’t say “fuck all Israelis” either, because they too are a diverse group of people with vastly different views - some of them are straight up Arabs, and among the Israeli Jews, opinions on the war vary strongly.
The last two russians that I still speak to are genuinely anti-putin and support Ukraine. Does that mean this is true of all russians or does that mean there something about who I choose to speak to bringing about such a result?
You claim they are “anti-war” and yet you talk about " war is seen by them as more of a necessity". You are either anti-war or you’re not. A strong majority (if not an overwhelming majority) are pro war. You’re defacto whitewashing russian genocidal imperialism.
When it comes down to it, the majority of russians support extermination of Ukrainian culture, language and identity (and torturing everyone who doesn’t agree).
The brotherly people bla bla is just an example of russian supremacists’ thinking. This “brotherly people” pitch clearly does not include self-determination or the right to develop your own culture (and getting rid of settler colonialism). It fails if you bring up something like reparations (even among allegedly liberal minded russians). The “brotherly people” pitch is a ruse for the ignorant and naive.
Don’t fucking lie about “the fact they [Ukrainians] die is tragic to most”. This is really fucking low on your part. The majority of the country (at any reasonable level of sociological segmentation) openly supports genocidal imperialism against Ukraine and other countries. A small minority might be somewhat ambivalent but generally sees it as a fair sacrifice for their comfort.
It’s funny that you bring up russian colonial settlers in Latvia. Even with access to free media, democratic institutions, economic growth, among russians in Latvia support for Russian/Ukrainian victory roughly evenly split (although majority claim to not know which country they support). The Latvian most definitely should be very careful
I’ve never lived in Israel/Palestine and I don’t speak Arabic or Hebrew.
I have lived in Russia for over a decade (I can tell some funny, almost absurdist, encounters with russian racism) and I speak fluent russian. It is reasonable to claim that an overwhelming majority of russians are genocidal imperialists.
And I am not saying they would openly admit to it. But if you know how to ask questions (in russian) in a subtle way, you can see that their worldview is supremacist and aligns with the extermination of the culture of neighbouring nations and forcing them to be become subservient to the russian national identity.
Random selection of lesser know research:
-https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20531680221108328 -https://meduza.io/feature/2024/06/25/a-kogda-uzhe-pobeda-to-nasha-budet -https://www.jiia.or.jp/en/column/2022/09/russia-fy2022-01.html
The second URL is in russian. A fascinating read. You should send to one of your anti-war younger russians.
You can easily do a web search confirming from multiple research groups that a strong majority of russians support the invasion of Ukraine and the destruction of its culture. I shared some lesser known research that provides counter arguments to the usual low effort russian whitewashing with respect to sociological research.
No, I’ve put “war as a necessity” group separate from “anti-war”.
Through the virtue of being Russo-Ukrainian (and currently residing in Russia) I constantly speak to people of very wide backgrounds, and I listen to conversations around.
There are people who are generally speaking of exterminating Ukraine, putting Z signs on the vehicles etc., but there aren’t that many of them.
There are some that want to restore “Slavic world”, and many more that talk about “saving Russia”, which is certainly imperialist and serving Putin’s agenda, but not aimed at exterminating Ukrainians per se (and having close Ukrainian roots and many relatives under rocket strikes, I am very sensitive to the narrative of destroying culture or people, my culture and my people, so I notice when it happens).
And there is a majority of people I know, people that are opposed to war, some mildly and mostly out of care for their families, some strongly and coming from something more. Most of them have something to lose, and even those who previously protested now can’t risk that, because regime got way more brutal. They literally don’t know what to do. I don’t know what to do while my close ones are in danger.
Colonial settlers? Latvian Russians are the kids and grandkids of those who moved there back when this was seen as yet another region. These people never chose to be born in Latvia, but so is their home, and they happen to be Russians. People of any ethnicity in any country should have access to their culture; this is one of the basic rights everyone should have. No exceptions.
As you can guess from previous paragraphs, I speak Russian fluently as well, только при этом я здесь живу по сей день и могу оценить, как дела обстоят на самом деле и что думают обычные люди. Местами в регионах это совпадает с зарисовками, опубликованными Медузой, но в целом я вижу больше разговоров и об украинцах, хотя очень часто исподтишка, невзначай, как вот про “украинских ребят” из той же зарисовки. It’s hard to openly protest and voice open dissent, though.
On the sources: 1.Clearly states that the only relevant result is that Russians do indeed hide their dissent, and estimates may be wrong even when asking indirectly, and are certainly skewed with direct answers. 2.Quite an interesting read, though there’s mainly one true and important takeaway: many Russians, especially in the small regions that have always lived a slow life, face inability to protest it openly, end up growing frustrated and escape long discussions of the war. This is commonly known as “getting tired” of it, but there is a deeper level to it. 3.Sources info from article 1 and misinterprets it.
The problem is, the research you provided only confirms that there is an issue of hiding true opinions, without definitively stating wide support. A list method employed not only doesn’t guarantee honest answers (just makes them more likely), it also has plenty of inaccuracies of its own, as it brings about many contentious things people could agree or disagree on.
There’s one thing we have in common - we want this war to end. You, probably for overall peace in the world, me, because my close ones are in danger, hiding from mobilization, living with intermittent electricity, not knowing what tomorrow is gonna bring, and also for global peace, of course. But seeing how it unfolds in Russia, how russophobia channels and feeds into Russian nationalism - something that can easily be weaponized - I really don’t think this is the answer. Russians the people are truly in the hard spot right now, they don’t need someone to tell them to go figure this out, and if there is a way to support any anti-war effort inside Russia, this will go a much longer way than animosity and rejection based on where they happen to be.
And I don’t buy your claim that everyone is “anti-war” and a small minority believes that “war is a necessity”. Your anecdotal experience is not really relevant when we have qualitative, quantitative research and reality (that russian have been directly occupying three nations since the USSR broke up - is this not fucking imperialism).
As I wrote earlier, it’s not only an issue with those who openly express their genocidal imperialism (and there are tens of millions of such adults). It’s also those who doesn’t see a big problem or think it’s a fair sacrifice that works for them. Such people are just as bad and their actions lead to the same outcomes.
This is just white-washing russian genocidal intent. Your “restore the slavic world” fellows know full well that russia is doing everything possible to exterminate Ukrainian culture (not to mention torturing tens of thousands of civilians and terrorizing millions). They all know it and they all support it.
The overwhelming majority supported the annexation of Crimea (80-85%), the occupation of Donbass and the full scale invasion. Same with the 2008 invasion of Georgia. And yet you bring the people you know?
For Latvia to be their home, they would need to learn Latvian language and be part of Latvian culture as opposed to supporting Putin and imperialism more broadly. You can’t call a place your home when your loyalties lie to a regime that wants to destroy the country you allegedly call home.
What an interesting interpretation of the first paper. It pretty clearly states that preference falsification is at around 10% with support for the full scale invasion going from 75% (direct polling) to 65% (list experiment).
This is complete bullshit that directly contradicts the findings of the paper. The authors even explicitly state that due to their methodology they believe that the true level of support is higher than 65% even when accounting for preference falsification.
List experiments have issues, any methodology does. But when multiple quantitative methodologies and qualitative research show the same findings, you can’t just bring up “plenty of inaccuracies of its own”.
Did we read the same paper? It’s a pretty damning picture of even those who are not aggressively pro-imperialist genocide. I don’t see what getting tired or not getting has to do with anything. They still support the russian army (that send cruise missiles into children’s cancer hospitals) and in principle they are OK with killings and destruction as long as it benefits them.
This is great example of supremacist russian thinking. It perfect aligns with notion that a strong majority of russians are genocidal imperialist (while not necessarily open stating this).
Let me translate:
“We want to keep 20% of Ukraine [and attack again later], because of “world peace”, we all want “world peace”, right?”
“Show respect to us russians, this is nothing. If you don’t show us respect we will fuck you up!”
“Russians the people are truly in the hard spot right now” - Typical russian victimhood. They are always the victims in any situation!
“and if we can influence them in a friendly way, we should, because animosity clearly doesn’t help” - There is not a single example in recent history of russians doing any type of good faith actions in the geopolitical sphere. On the contrary, a recognition that a strong majority of russians are genocidal imperialists, that they do not believe in human rights (beyond using the concept for
Authors clearly stated that the result can be inaccurate and some percentage of Russians may not answer honestly even under such conditions, and in conclusions, they only ended up confirming some people do seemingly hide their true opinions (although the extent of it may vary as the studied group was not representative of entire Russian population and was taken from Toloka, a place attracting specific demographic not fully representative of general Russian population).
It sure is important to know Latvian language, but for that they already have Latvian language tests for those coming into Latvian citizenship. They can, however, hold any culture they want, while respecting Latvian law and basic customs. Same applies to anyone anywhere, including any minorities of Russia or Ukraine. In any case, trying to erase Russian identity is not the answer, which is obvious to legislators outside the country.
Did I say anything about borders? You literally made this up. When I say I want peace, honestly, I don’t give a single damn where the border will be - where it is now, or where it has originally been, or anything in between. I want for two countries, both of which are my homes, mind you, to stop putting their men in the meat grinder. And I know plenty of people on both sides of the Russo-Ukrainian frontline share my sentiment.
But attacking Russians on the Internet and excluding them from everywhere further radicalizes them, leaves them bitter to the outside world, which can lead them to believe y’all really are the enemies to fight against. By alienating Russians, such people just feed into Putin’s narrative that the world is full of hostiles. This has nothing to do with victimhood or imperialism - this is basic human psychology, and it would work exactly the same anywhere else.
I strongly wish Russian aggression would stop, I care for it with all my heart. Again, my close ones are in fear of an attack as we speak. But I also happen to see the perspective of everyday Russians - something that most of those judging never get to see or even consider, naively thinking that they are the “punishers” for incorrect behavior, and that more of that will lead to a “child” getting to learn good behavior. No - slowly, but surely you simply raise bitterness and become an enemy. And they won’t get themselves to blame, and they will march with their wraith. Not on you. On my people. My grandmother. My uncle. My brother. His wife. I could just never talk about those things, present myself as a Ukrainian (after all, I am one) and go about my life, but too much is at stake for me to stay silent when y’all are doing the stupidest shit you can.
You’re lying about the authors conclusions. They explicitly stated that the support was higher than 65% due to their methodology. And they did clearly state that preference falsification is a mere ~10%. Therefore their research (like any quantitative research on this topic) supports my statement that the majority of russians are genocidal imperialists as they want to conquer Ukraine and destroy Ukrainian identity.
No, they need to learn the Latvian language at a high level if they want to live there. This is basic component of calling a place your home. You have to some loyalty to your country and not support a genocidal enemy. The fact that russian culture is at least on some level defined by genocidal imperialism is not a problem of the Latvians. This is basic stuff.
Ukraine is not your home. You are a russian, no Ukrainian would try to come up with “war is necessity” word salad or your comical “russians the people are truly in the hard spot right now”. So don’t lie!
You don’t care about borders because you don’t care about the ten of thousands of civilians in russian torture dungeons. We also both know that vast majority of russians are not interested in any kind of real peace. Just like in 2014, the goal is to get some breathing room, then attacks and try and get more territory and exterminate Ukrainian culture in the newly occupied territories. This approach is nearly universally known and (silently) supported by a strong majority of russians.
GTFO with your “on my people”. You defend russian imperialism and colonialism and you dare to imply you have some relation to Ukraine?
Victimhood is a defining element of russian culture. Without it there is no russian “culture”. Conspiracy theories blaming foreign countries for any and all ills are extremely prevalent in russian society. This has been true in the past, this is true today and it will be true in the future.
I don’t understand what you mean by your “punisher” sentence. The vast majority russians already blame everyone but themselves for all their problems. You brought up russophobia as an implicit excuse for russian crimes. Russophobia doesn’t really exist. When a society consist of a strong majority of genocidal imperialists that lack empathy, it is reasonable to see that society as a threat and a problem. This is not rocket science.
Have you ever seen a well known russian (outside a few figures like Novodvorskaya) admit that at least part of the problem lies in russian society at large? I think not … because we both know the role of victimhood among russians.
To develop a russia strategy that works, the world needs to understand that russians will never act in good faith, russians will always play the victim and a strong majority of russians are committed and genuine ethno-racial supremacists that lack empathy.
Alienating russians is a red herring. The only way forward is a sober view of russian culture and methods and an understanding that russia only understand force; you have to treat them like they treat others.
Even if that were true (which is not, read the damn conclusions section), this doesn’t support your emotional notion. And as much as I’d like to share such a simple outrage, it’s not helpful.
It would be weird to see all Russians born in Latvia only support Latvian side of things, just as it would be weird to see each and every Latvian born in Russia supporting Russia.
I never said I see war as necessary, I say many of the people that can be defined as pro-war are not for it because they want to see Ukrainians gone. I personally am anti-war and I call for peace through whatever means necessary, because - surprise surprise - I care about people’s lives and you seemingly don’t. It is curently you who calls for brute force solutions.
And you trying to say my ethnicity is not valid is laughable. Oh yeah, gonna be unborn to my Ukrainian father and forget my entire Ukrainian bloodline. Maybe your cultural shock at facing a Ukrainian who doesn’t immediately call to destroy all Russians is your problem? Then go around and maybe talk to some outside political circlejerks.
Russian culture is independent and beautiful, not defined by anything in particular - just as Ukrainian. You trying to minimize it to “victimhood” or even politics more broadly is an insult to everything good the country has produced - and there is plenty.
The perfect scenario I see is peace talks, and then Ukraine joining NATO. There are talks on the NATO side, but they require Ukraine to leave the current war first. I do think this is the best way forward, as Russian security guarantees are proven not to be trusted.
Seeing any national or ethnic group as “inherently dangerous” is nothing but a way to more abuse, and a common justification for imperialist wars, too. There is no such society in Russia, and seeing it this way is an issue of your perception. But regardless, make peace talks and then invite Ukraine to NATO. Problem solved.
This is just one survey you can look multiple other (different provider, different methodologies) and they show the same thing. Bold of you to call me emotional when you’re approach to any and all research (or even history for that matter) is “it’s not valid if it doesn’t show russians in a good light”.
They are not really Latvian if they support Latvia’s enemies, are they? This is not a complex topic, if you don’t support the country, don’t want to learn the language, don’t care for the culture, then you can’t call the country your home.
The goal and the outcome of the war and occupation of Ukrainian territories. Preference falsification goes both ways. This is not some sort of secret information; the individuals know full well that Ukrainian are brutally prosecuted in the occupied territories and they support it. That is why they are genocidal imperialists.
Never denied your ethnic background. I said you are not Ukrainian; not all Ukrainians are ethnically Ukrainian (one example would be Crimean Tartars). You don’t speak Ukrainian, you don’t live in Ukraine, you openly white-wash russian genocidal imperialism, you support settler colonialism in the Baltic nations (literally saying the Latvia must tolerate individuals that openly oppose Latvian statehood and want to turn Latvia into an authoritarian hellhole).
I brought up victimhood because revanchism and victimhood are defining features of russian culture. It doesn’t have to be that way, but that is the choice russians make. Going back to my previous post, show me one example where a public figure (not Novodvorskaya or Kasprov) admitted that at least some of russia’s trouble are the cause of russians themselves and they need to take responsibility for their actions. Since you claim that victimhood is not a defining element of russian society/culture, this should be easy.
I am not going to speculate on future developments. One thing I will say is I would never trust any russian who talks about “peace”.
I believe I explicitly stated that I don’t believe that russians are “inherently imperialist”. I do believe that this a choice that they make and that we should treat them as adults.
Earlier in this thread someone (was it you?) claimed that russians have no access independent non-state media. I pointed out that this was false and that every russian with a smartphone has had uncensored access to youtube (until this summer) and that major reliable news agencies have had russian language service on YT since ~2010. The point being is that the broad alignment of a strong majority of russian society with state propaganda is a choice! And russians need to take responsibility for it.
You mentioned helpful. Let me flip this around a bit. How has your approach (“russians are defacto completely innocent and you’re just spreading hate!”) been helpful to your own country?
What has your “opposition” achieved in the past 15 years? I will note that they have largely maintained a chauvinistic posture - e.g. support the annexation of Crimea. How will everyone (Ukrainians? the west?) being “helpful” (as defined by you) impact anything in Russia?
No, I just highlight that the research you provided doesn’t say what you want it to say. And I can’t really find many articles that confirm your notion.
You can call the country your home if you constantly live and/or were born there. Quite straightforward to me. Now, it would certainly be handy to learn the language and familiarize with the culture - which many Latvian Russians do - and it’s a correct turn to make Latvian courses mandatory - but suppressing Russian culture is a step too far, and something that should never be applied to anyone. Luckily, I’m not the only one thinking this way.
I do speak Ukrainian (мова, anyone?), although I must admit that since I’ve spent more time living here in Russia and not everyone even in Ukraine spoke Ukrainian, I do speak Russian better. But same is true for most Eastern Ukrainians anyway.
I don’t white-wash anything, I’m only saying hostility is not a viable option. You, along many others, try to push all blame on everyday Russians - and there could be a grain of truth to that, more could be done a decade ago to make sure this never happens - but what do you want now? What is the proposed course of action, exactly?
When those questions come up, I don’t know the answers. And I desperately wish to have one. One thing I do know is that getting hostile to Russians makes them hostile to you, which gradually shifts the idea of hostile Russians into a self-fulfilling prophecy, boosting Putin’s support. If you didn’t see it, one of the main patriotic tropes of Russia is that the world is full of enemies that hate Russians. Don’t make this true; people do not reason when they are despised, and they will not come to the conclusion that this is meant to stimulate them to do something. By trying to make Russians feel “consequences of their actions”, you really just feed directly into Putin’s propaganda machine and make Russians actually hate you.
No, that wasn’t me, and media can be accessed - at least via VPNs. Not gonna argue on that - and I still insist the support is not as broad as you imagine it to be, although sometimes it looks like some folks do everything in their power to make it true. Also, collective punishment over those in particular who support the war is never a good option at any ratio. This, by the way, has further alienated some of the opposition.
As I said, I do not have strong opinions on Russo-Ukrainian border. If Ukraine retakes Crimea and Donbass, then be it. If Russia captures them, okay. You think the reason I’m talking this is because I take the side of Russia, but I don’t take either side. If Ukraine ends up including Kursk (which was Russian pre-war), and Russia ends up including Luhansk (which was Ukrainian pre-war), and the peace is then brokered, whatever! I have zero loyalty to either country, and see the concept of a country to be imposed and alien, introducing conflicts over nothing that actually matters. I am, however, loyal to people, all people, and naturally sensitive to the struggles of those living on both sides of this very border. And on one side there are people not only suffering from rocket strikes, but also chased and beaten and pushed to go to their death (aka бусифікація), and on the other the country is turning into a war machine, feeding its young men into the grinder as well (aka могилизация). Stop that first, it’s an obvious priority task, isn’t it?
Now, does this approach of hostility make it any closer? If anything, it makes peace further away, it drives people further away. And it’s a big deal.
Maybe being nice to Russians didn’t help them stop Putin. But being hostile to Russians plays straight into Putin’s deck. It looks, however, like retribution for you is the goal in itself, not a measure to actually help anyone, on any side of the frontline.
With that said, I don’t think this is the kind of conversation worth having.
Russians are already hostile to Ukrainians my man. Saying “if you don’t treat us with respect, then we’ll really fuck you up, this is nothing!” is just another facet of russian supremacist and imperialist thinking. As are your justifications of protecting russian settler colonialism in Ukraine or Latvia.
What fucking self-fulfilling prophecy? Russians have been invading Ukraine and working on eradicating Ukrainian identity for a third of independent Ukraine’s history (and that’s just one example, there is also Moldova, Georgia, Chechnya and Belarus). Not to mention all the work russians have done on trying to eliminate Ukrainian identity in the centuries before.
Being nice to russians? How were Ukrainians not nice to russians before 2014? We decided to demonstrate self-determination?
We’ve seen how peace was brokered after 2014. So spare your fake calls for peace. You full well know that peace for most russians is just re-grouping period for another invasion and more mass murder of Ukrainians.
Buying into false allegation that the majority of russians do not want to eradicate Ukrainian identity is not going to bring peace in Ukraine.
The first step for Ukrainian society (and it’s sad that it took so much death and destruction to get there) is recognizing that:
Poland and the Baltic nations recognized this and successfully took measures to account for this (you can’t invade them and you destroy their culture).
We did not and that is why we are going through this current hell.
I dare say it’s an outcome of being nice to russians before 2014.
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Russia has said they are going to do asymetrical warfare with the west. So why should we not prepare for what they claim they will do? Russians arent owed anything by us. Not a seat at the table, not a chance to contribute to open source software, not to be listened to. Not rights beyond their borders. It doesnt matter if they are nice. Its not our job and not realistic to expend time and resources to take each individual russian’s personal measure and apply sanctions onesey twosey on the bad ones. If they dont like it they should take it up with their motherland and get it sorted. I think we should immediately shut down all visas of any kind with Russia. The fact that the US is still allowing them to vacation here is absurd.
No one’s owed anything, but it’s in the collective interest to unite - without borders.
Russia is growing reliant on Linux, and it is heavily unlikely they’ll poison their own waters. Now Russian state and companies will just fork it for their needs, leaving mainline kernel worse off.
Russians are a diverse set of people, many of whom (especially relatively young IT crowd) are super not cool with what Russia is doing and have 0 intention to do anything murky in its interest.
And I’m growing tired of people imagining Russians can just come out on the street and end this for good, but somehow don’t want to or something. Any coordination of people is broken and de facto outlawed. Protesters are jailed within about a minute of protesting. People are scared for their families.
All this also ignores the fact that other world forces can have every intention to backdoor and hurt Linux as well, yet Russia in particular is the scapegoat. Linus just made sure Linux is now part of the proclaimed “West”, even though it was never attacked or forced to pick any sides whatsoever, and even Russia the state held absolutely nothing against it.
As per visas - not only would US lose out on a lot of talented folks that could benefit it (and not Russia, mind you!), it’s also too big of a political center. There was an occasion when the US didn’t want to allow in Russian diplomats that were heading for the United Nations HQ. Is that alright in your eyes?
But like you say, they can just fork it. So let them do that. What’s the problem? Everything else is kind of out of context.
The problem is mainline Linux will now not receive collaboration efforts from Russians, which will influence the speed and course of its development.
Not saying Linux is gonna stall without Russians, but they do have a measurable impact on open-source development and introduce a lot of exotic things into the kernel, which allows it to be used with more devices and accelerates development of alternative technologies.
It’s a lose-lose situation.
Besides, seeing other contributors removed for seemingly nothing but their nationality might disincentivise developers in other countries, too.
Just factually wrong. Russian maintainers were removed from their positions. They are still allowed to contribute, but they’ll have to get a non-Russian maintainer to sign off on it. This removes “FSB coerces Russian maintainer into signing off on malware” as an attack vector, while having the minimum possible impact on Russian contributors whose code will be checked for correctness like anyone else’s.
According to your logic every american is scum because of government politics.
You are right. I think other countries should sanction US travelers for our governments bad actions, yes. It would wake people the eff up.
With respect to screwing the state, it diminishes the nation’s standing in the world. Tech companies under the government are unable to compete with other tech companies when it comes to promises of supporting Linux properly.
By itself it’s not much but add the sum total of sanctions and you hopefully inflict an obvious contrast in prosperity available through global trade for a well behaved nation versus losing access to all those markets through misbehavior.
If the world doesn’t want to step in with direct force, this is about the only sort of potentially effective measure available. Without force nor economic measures, you are left with shaking your head is disapproval.
Going too far, on the other hand, accelerates the formation of alternative alliances, BRICS being the most prominent, and growth of authoritarian axis.
And on a different angle, Linux always adhered to truly collaborative open source policy, and I’m concerned more about what this decision means to that rather than Russia. If we start excluding maintainers based on nationality, not only we’ll be left without many great people supporting essential programs, we’ll be left with a political division in a sphere where collaboration means everything. Seeing other people being kicked out of something so big (and, for all I’ve heard, even the attributions removed) is not a great motivating tool to invest your time and effort into something that can so easily be taken away from you.
The West tried for years to coddle and include Russia after the USSR collapsed, and look where it got them: a Russian invasion of Georgia and Ukraine, being blanketed with disinformation and having their elections interfered with to install far-right pro-Russians, and living under the constant fear that Russia could turn off their energy supply.
Fuck Russia; it needs to be cut off through every practicable avenue.
It makes it more difficult for Russia to put backdoors into western IT infrastructure
Because the ex-Soviet elite layer, one can say, a one big mafia corporation, after USSR’s breakup has taught its ways to Western elites, and Western elites have taught them something too.
Actually in that context Linus’ dad being a Finnish communist who lived in USSR for some time is an interesting additional fact. I even remember reading that in J4F and marveling at his rose-tinted view of USSR there.
These people want to pretend that this didn’t happen and their institutions are not already dying, and that they are very different from Russians.
So they think they can avoid something by hating more on Russians, that must help. It’s like avoiding infected people during a plague, only your crowd is already infected too, it’s too late.
Also when you are more used to something and conscious of it, you have more immunity.
In Russia we have a choice between obvious propaganda, delusions reactive to that propaganda (which are not truth, but humans want to think that the clear opposite of propaganda is the truth), various fuzzy neutral-pessimistic grassroots opinions, and 100 sorts of foreign obvious propaganda. We are also conscious of how much power we as people really have. Even those who volunteer for Ukraine are not doing that due to “lack of real news”, they are doing that due to various kinds of desperation and cynicism, some just being evil.
In any Western country you have the same choice, but due to the common delusion that your kinds of obvious propaganda are not that, you tend to avoid using it. That’s just an earlier stage.
Virtue signaling and spreading hate as a way to distance yourself has truly never led to something good.
And with the direction US and EU are taking recently, I have more sad reasons to believe your words are true. Let’s hope they’re not.
Thanks for your input.
Nah men. You play the victim card. This is still in active use to reason about misdoings by Russians.
Don’t compare yourself to Western countries in such a simplified way.
Russians have contributed too much crimes in their occupied countries in the last centuries. You guys felt and acted entitled.
There are always other choices.
You guys contributed actively to cruelty. Instead of admitting things you compare yourself to others to denounce them.
Reflect about yourself, not others.
<censored out to remove an insult>.
First of all whole nations don’t do that, <censored out to remove an insult>.
If in your barn it’s considered that everything said by a person from some nation that can be put under some term specific for it, like “whataboutism” or “victim card”, you’re wrong!
You are simply not a sufficiently civilized person.
You are a failure of your country’s education system and of your parents’ efforts.
My country’s education system worked better because I had to resist it to keep sanity, but I suspect that in key criteria it was the same as yours’, and the reason is that someone misguided you to think that you don’t have to do that.
This is a too damn <censored> complex way for you, that’s for sure. I think we do have to simplify things sometimes for our counterparts.
It’s me looking down on you here, not the other way around.
Holy shit, you do realize that “Western countries” is a 90% match with the bunch of nations that unleashed slavery and genocide unprecedented in history on most of the globe, rebuilt their whole societies and economies around robbing colonies, and that still functions in this exact way?
Russia was and is just the lesser sidekick turned problematic.
There has been a transformation, sort of colonialism of Theseus, where colonies that were openly and legally robbed to create that Western way of life (that Westerners consider to be a result of their superior culture and intelligence, ROFL mwahahaha) have gradually morphed into puppet monarchies and dictatorships and theocracies and cleptocracies, the borders of which are decided by the West, the corrupt elites of which all rely on the West for keeping their power, and the legality of which from the West’s viewpoint is directly connected to them creating financial incentives for the West. If you don’t know about this, because you are not interested in African, South American and especially Middle Eastern matters, the problem is with your ignorance.
Especially if you’re Finnish (maybe, from your instance?), Soviet crimes against your country are not comparable to Finnish concentration camps in WWII, <censored> again, you are not deceiving anyone here. I actually thought Russia should cede that chunk of Karelia back to Finland, until I realized that Finns are as dumb as Russians, but with some superiority idea, and also until 2020 dropped and I realized that strategic depth is more important than being nice. With any country, because any supposedly civilized society (like Westerners supporting Azerbaijan against Artsakh) can turn into a bunch of savages.
spoiler
By the way, about comparisons - Armenia was a civilized (by the measure of that time) country long before Swedes civilized Finns, and long before Swedes themselves stopped being savages. Beowulf’s prototype story is approximately dated in the same age as Vardan Mamikonyan fighting against Persians. Artsakh was part of Armenia (as a country, not as a state) since before then. By the way, the EU has an elected body of representatives, the European Parliament, which again and again votes in support of Artsakh (and Armenia as a whole) on something, and the European Commission (which is not an elected body) again and again just acts ignoring those. It that fine by you as some Western civilized thing I’m incapable of understanding, or it appears that really important decisions are not left to serfs?
Not anyone from my family, so you can immediately <censored> again, I think you’re going to be sore there.
By the way, my ancestral homeland is Tayq, that’d be part of Western Armenia occupied by NATO member Turkey and recognized by its Western allies as part of it. <Censored> again.
That’s called pointing out injustice. When an NKVD man is telling that a Gestapo man is a torturer, that’s right, of course, but the Gestapo man calling the NKVD man a torturer back is just as right. Your argument seems to be that the Gestapo man is torturing someone right now, so we have to get busy with stopping that, and not the NKVD man. But the NKVD man is torturing someone right now, he’s just accusing the Gestapo man of using “the victim card” instead of addressing that.
I realize that your upbringing was lacking, but you could reach the simple conclusion by yourself that if you are on the right side and if you
.
Wtf. Seriously?
Seems like you have to justify your civilization.
Guess your day was worse then mine. But that’s obvious.
You refer to - not even thin - empty air, so go mind your people business and teach them.
– second post, first one got an error in my app when replying –
Yeah, sorry, I get triggered easily, indeed usually based on conditions unconnected to the conversation itself.
No, I extrapolate your comment for you to have something of that kind in your opinions further than what you said. Which happens when …
Y-yeah, I don’t like spending 3 hours in client’s environment via <a lot of words censored out> Zoom with 2-3 second delays (for key presses and mouse movements) and 2 other people discussing life in the same conference in background, and sometimes asking me questions. My day was worse, no doubt about that. Thank you for noticing. LOL
I disagree, but writing such texts is useless in general towards anyone.
Getting back to the subject of the post - 11 people is not too many. Being in aggressive state’s military’s supply chain is common. DARPA and all.
It would be basic decency to send 11 e-mails, and then, after some time, make an announcement (could have been more thoughtful too).
It seems 1 of those 11 people was dropped by mistake, but can’t believe everything posted in the Interwebs.
The rest was thin air, yes. I got triggered by Linus referring to nationalism. Again, sorry for that unhinged text.
Don’t worry mate, here my upvote. Gave a nice weekend
I think it’s pretty reasonable and okay for Palestinians to yell “Fuck Jews” IMHO
I wouldn’t want them to go genociding back, but breaking ties in collaboration would be very fair and reasonable
Our countries welcome Ukrainian refugees.
I am friends with Russians in my country.
Russiana living here sneak benefits by saying they are Ukrainians.
The majority of Russians living here voted for Putin polls have shown.
Some Russians denounce our media and only watch Russian state TV.
So if they can’t adapt after beeing here for decades I tend to believe that the Russian common sense differs immensly from ours. And therefore I agree with this propaganda: Fuck Russia.
They talk about eachother on the highest level but Russian citizens - here or in Russia - do not form loud critique. If my Brother was jailed for critique I would apread the word in my circles who would spread the word… WE IN THE WEST WOULD MAKE US HEARD.
Russians benefiting from the lower prices just agree with their government and apparently do not care about their country killing innocent people.
So fuck Russians as well.
The advice would be relevant a bit ealier, around the Bolotnaya protests.
But now protesting in Russia is nothing short of suicidal. You won’t make yourself heard - much quicker, you’ll be jailed. Police is constantly on duty near main protest venues, and they act brutal. And this fear mentality permeates many even as they leave, afraid they’ll have to return some day.
Right now, it seems like the only thing that would help is a full-scale revolution, but people are passivized enough through decades of oppression that organizing them is near impossible. Everyone is scared as hell to be the one who comes on the street, finds out they are alone and next moment they are taken to police and jailed for years.
Even under those conditions, people did come out to anti-war protests, especially in 2022. Result? Brutal suppression and mass incarceration. So, I hope you can see where this comes from.
Very saddening.
Given that Russians where the ones who openly shared lists of serial keys online, I wonder why no attacks onto the black velvet around their information system is not attacked then.
Thinking aloud here…
fuck russians? fuck the Russian government and the people who support it, not all the russians.
“fuck the overwhelming majority of russians” doesn’t have the same ring to it.
“fuck the overwhelming minority of Russians, mostly the rich elite, but not the ones oppressed by their government”
This.
I have no problem with Russians, but I do have a problem with the Russian government, and that makes me suspect Russians due to the chance of the Russian government using its leverage to get them to do what they want. So I understand the move, but I’m saddened that FOSS gets sucked into international politics.
FOSS is inherently political, though, and an international collaboration like Linux is inherently internationally political. Allowing big corporations to influence the direction of the codebase? That’s political. Allowing the free usage and distribution of the software to anybody for any purpose not otherwise afforded by existing copyright law? That’s political. Collaborating with contributors from almost every country on Earth? That’s political. Being headquartered in the United States? Again political. Creating a hierarchy with Linus Torvalds at the top? The definition of politics.
It feels like people only start screaming “that’s politics though!” whenever it becomes political in a way that’s controversial to them – without recognizing how completely pervasive politics are in every single aspect of our lives. The fact we’re even talking on Lemmy right now is political – in all likelihood, we both decided that Reddit’s system of governance was unfair and thought a federated system was somehow more ideal, in this case a platform created by outspoken authcoms. That’s even disregarding the Internet which Lemmy sits on top of, including net neutrality, freedom of speech, the infrastructure connecting different jurisdictions, the way it came about through organizations like DARPA, CERN, the IEEE, and ICANN, etc.
It seems though that Linus didn’t make this decision for political reasons, but instead because he doesn’t want to get in trouble with the US government. He indicated that he was advised by lawyers to do this:
I agree that that’s why he made the decision, but you understand how that’s political, right?
He probably isn’t too bothered by the sanctions given his comments about his Finnish nationality being a reason why he opposes Russian aggression. But still, it seems at the moment he’s just trying to follow the law.
I agree, and I mean to say that following the law is a political statement in the same way that him standing up and protesting by not following the law would be a political statement. We’re all political actors; it’s just that the amount of power we have to enact political change varies.
Fair points. I guess I happen to think Linus’s action is fair since I think the sanctioned companies are thought to be supporting Russia’s invasion in some way.
this is racism and bigotry
“Russian” is not an ethnicity to claim racism against.
Hostility toward someone nationality is racism to me. If it’s not it sill equally bad.
That’s not how words work. Ordinary Russians don’t deserve blanket animosity or praise, yes. However, one can claim disliking Russians wholesale is bigotry, not racism. Words have definitions even if you pretend they don’t so you can virtue signal on the internet.
Good cleanup on the security vulnerabilities!
Honestly, that’s the main thing I was thinking.
Anyone wanting to put vulnerabilities into Linux is probably capable of not looking like they are in Russia…
It’s a statement: Russia as the only country on the world is not allowed to participate to the biggest human collaboration in existence which runs 90% of all computers due to bad state actions.
They should fucking speak up to Putin not Torvalds.
Did u speak to Bush when us invaded Iraq and afganistan?
To directly quote Linus:
As to sending me a revert patch - please use whatever mush you call brains. I’m Finnish. Did you think I’d be supporting Russian aggression? Apparently it’s not just lack of real news, it’s lack of history knowledge too.
Linus really pouring on that “white death” energy.
Linus is xenophobic pos. It’s clear as day now.
.
.
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Do China next
No changes until China decides to invade Taiwan and the sanctions that Russia currently has begin.
Yeah, China are being “generic assholes” right now, but not crossing the lines into “serious villain shit” yet, at least for people who aren’t in China.
But if they touch Taiwan, oh hell yeah.
They round up their own people and either brainwash or straight up murder them. Their government is as corrupt and evil as any other.
Yes, but it’s their people they’re butchering, so it’s less our problem just yet.
I know, bullshit rules, but still.
Oh yeah, let’s wait until they start murdering people to maybe take some action.
Yes.
And when they start murdering people we bring down the wrath of God on them.
That’s the problem with Russia, you have to be nice, up to the point they cross the line, then you turn the doom music on.
We needed to start crushing their balls with a hydraulic press when they took Crimea, this is on us.
I mean, it probably would’ve been ideal then but as usual, America was recovering from/embroiled in the last Conservative disasters (financial crisis, Afghanistan/Iraq.) And Obama had just burned a lot of political capital giving people healthcare.
W annihilated our foreign policy, destroyed it completely.
And yeah, Obama burned everything on the aca and recovering the economy while fox News had mustard gate and tan suit gate and saluting a guy with a coffee cup gate.
His foreign policy was a mess, but at least he started the pivot away from the middle east back to meaningful places, but we really needed to deal with Russia then.
who is this “we” who can “bring down the wrath of god”?
If they try for Taiwan, the whole west, you know, the people who depend on Tsmc chips for literally everything.
We went to war over oil you better believe we’d mobilize to fuck for literally all our tech.
over oil against Iraq. And that’s a shame. Even back then “the whole west” wasn’t united behind that lie.
China isn’t Iraq.
Iran neither. Iraq was an artificial state. Iran is there in some form for more than 2 millennia. 3?
Russia is in Ukraine. Israel is, with the help of U.S. trying to start a war in “middle east”. Let’s say that China “try for Taiwan”, do you really think that the U.S. can “mobilize” effectively on all these fronts. And would Europe follow U.S.?
Another question would be, let’s say that Trump is the next president: What would that change about your world war 3 fantasies?
Not much actually.
Because the president only controls the country if they aren’t a complete fucking moron, otherwise it’s like his first term where literally everyone told him to go fuck himself. :)
It helps not being lead by inbred fucktards, as the history of Russia has eminently proven.
i’ve read your comment history.
Why do you need this much hate? Some of your comments are ignorant and most are reeking of bigotry.
I have ukrainian friends. I worked with them in 2022.
And I saw the pain in their eyes while Russia was being invaded.
It’s not hate, it’s unbridled rage.
I literally worked on US military drone technology while Ukraine was being invaded, and I can only pray it helped kill Russians. Take this as a point of personal pride as an engineer.
The moment the last Russian has left Ukraine I promise I will resign my anger, even feel compassion, but until then, more Russian blood is only a good thing, it’s the only language they speak.
BTW, I had Russian friends too. I cared for them. But they supported the war, so that’s that.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_literature
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_Russia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Russia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pussy_Riot ❗
Oh, I’ve read dostoevsky and tolstoy, dostoevsky is personally the greatest writer in history and it’s not even close.
And he would watch what’s happening in Ukraine and agree that Russians are complete, worthless morons, it’s basically half of what he wrote. He just saw beauty in the tragedy.
I mean there are chinese spies in europe, which suppress, bully and sometimes even kill chinese journalists who have fleed (?) to europe. And thats not even a conspiracy theory, there were investigative journalists who have uncovered this in several countries. So I’d say that china is reeealy close to that villain line
Yeah, I think thats still really brushing the line.
This is a carrot and stick thing, by making Russia an extreme example we can steer them back from the edge.
But we do need to have other sanctions, they’re just being dickholes.
And Israel
And the US
It’s really awesome to expel by nationality, even including people who’ve long moved out and immigrated years ago and don’t support the invasion and war waged on Ukraine /s
Honestly fuck Russia ofc, but this goes a bit too far into the grey area between hawkish-reasonable and discriminatory, and on the latter side I’m not sure who and/or what this is meant to help, nor does it seem particularly fair to those individual contributors to keep their code yet remove attribution and mailing list entries.
EDIT: holy shit the bloodlust in the comments here is actually unreal, even on arr slash neoliberal and the politics communities here on lemmy the comments are way more sane.
Why are people so fundamentally incapable of nuanced judgement. According to people in this comment section, a human is entirely defined by their country of origin. What is this witch hunt level, toddler IQ thinking. Are people really so desperate to have a “bad guy” that they can blame everything on? This dehumanization of people is wild to me.
This reeks of Americanism, yanks are absurdly obsessed with race and nationality
The irony of your comment is not lost on me.
But yeah if you were to measure a country by its loudest voices then that would be accurate.
A “funny” joke in the US is asking a non-white person where they’re from and they respond with something like “Indiana”
Americans are fuckin idiots
source: at least two high viewership TV shows
What does this even mean? What TV shows are you even talking about? Indiana is a US state.
Please tell me of this enlightened place you come from where racism and discrimination do not exist. Surely they also are accepting refugees and I need but apply? No?
Everyone but my tribe are _______. Hehe I’m so clever.
It’s just another self-hating American
Russia: The stupidest meanest most corrupt and lazy loudest voices since The Revolution
That’s missing a big part of the justification here. When you’re from a given country, that country frequently has a lot of influence over you. You probably have family and other ties in your home country, and those can be used as leverage to get you to do what the state wants. And when your country is in active opposition to a large portion of the free world, it makes a lot of sense for people to be extra cautious in who they deal with, because it’s never clear if that person is being manipulated by their former state.
So excluding someone based on nationality can absolutely make sense as an easy rule of thumb to avoid most of the problems stemming from that state.
Would you agree it’s a good thing to avoid US software as they’ve incorporated secret surveillance into law through letters of national security to private companies?
And by extension, perhaps even shunning US citizens?
As a US citizen, I care less about where the software comes from, but who hosts that software, so I tend to use FOSS products and services, preferring to self-host where it’s not too annoying.
I don’t think anyone should shun citizens from any country, but we should be wary of trusting citizens from countries where the government has a larger influence. So we should be hesitant to trust people from Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran (and a bunch of others, I’m just listing the official enemies of the US), especially if they still live in those countries. That doesn’t mean we should shun people from those countries (I have an awesome coworker from Iran), just that we should hesitate to put them into influential positions. I have no problem collaborating with people from any of those countries, I just think we should be a little extra careful when there’s a stronger incentive for their government to get involved (and manipulating Linux is attractive for pretty much every government, esp. my own).
“I’m an American, and therefore I’m better”
We’re literally talking about Linux Foundation making these changes to comply with requirements of your government.
In leadership, not code. That’s a pretty big difference.
I also think we shouldn’t have people from the NSA, CIA, or FBI as maintainers either, because they have clear conflicts of interest. That said, I think it’s a lot less likely for the US government to extort a maintainer to let bad code through than the Russian government. It’s much more likely for the US government to try to hide bad code in the normal review process, and I’m sure that happens w/ Russian spy agencies as well, but allowing someone in a region that has demonstrated that they’re willing to strong-arm people into doing things that benefits the state (i.e. through threats or even outright force) to hold a maintainer position in a very influential piece of software isn’t a great idea, especially when their government is choosing to be an international pariah.
I have zero problem with Russians contributing code to the kernel, I just think it’s wise to remove Russian citizens from leadership positions to limit the impact of Russian interference in Linux development.
You are talking about hypothetical situations in the organization with around 2694 maintainers. What I find interesting, is that no one in this thread thought it would be good to check if these 11 already contributed something harmful. Instead, it’s just “good, we prevented a bad thing”.
Anyway, your extreme take “ban all Russians because what if” goes much further than what happened in reality (“ban Russians working for companies under sanctions”): …kernel.org/…/860ef93c-229b-4070-8ee6-cb80d1f5133…
I never said “ban all Russians,” I said we should be more skeptical of allowing Russian citizens to be in leadership positions on projects like the Linux kernel, especially while their government maintains a hostile attitude toward much of the rest of the world, and thus presents a greater risk of knowingly allowing malicious code to get into the tree. That’s it.
Perhaps some Russian citizens can be trusted, idk, I honestly haven’t looked into exactly who the maintainers are (as you mentioned, there are a lot), or where they’re domiciled. I have zero issues with Russian people in general, I just think the current political climate makes it much more difficult to trust Russian citizens on these projects. They can absolutely submit code and it’ll go through the normal review process, they may just be prohibited from holding leadership roles.
Should we exclude people from states actively fueling a genocide?
That’s completely unrelated to contribution to FOSS. The only way it would be relevant is for software projects that do some kind of filtering, so something like Lemmy might be an area where I’d hesitate to put someone from Israel, Gaza, Russia, or Ukraine into a maintainer/moderator/admin role because they could influence what content is viewed by users in a way that paints their country in a better light.
But someone from the US is fine?
The US also has some incentives here, but I’d say it’s far less likely to interfere than the ones I mentioned. As long as there’s enough variety (i.e. some people from the EU and other regions), it should be fine.
Because as long as the Russian state exists and can point to their “history” as an empire and use it as an excuse to take over their neighboring countries (like Latvia, the place where I’m from), I won’t be satisfied.
Unfortunately nobody is bombing Moscow yet, so anything that isolates and makes the population more angry and can hopefully topple the government is a good thing in my book
Have you even read the policy? “The people removed from maintainer positions were identified as employed by companies on the US and EU sanctions list. These companies are directly involved in the Russian military complex and therefore are directly complicit in war crimes being committed daily in Ukraine”. Racist? My ass.
This is not about the removed maintainers. Its about this comment section.
Yeah. Times like this I wonder whether a better world is even really possible, or whether social liberalisation was but a blip on a trajectory of bigotry, antagonism, tribalism and savagery.
Even in harmless contexts, the commodification of national identity as the first and foremost trait of a person even for the purposes of smalltalk or jest always makes me think if perhaps most are far more nationalist than they’d care to admit or even themselves think. It’s a haunting thought.
Russia represent Russian citizens the same way the US represent US citizens. If you’re an US citizen and you think US international actions look bad on you then tough luck. Being a citizen of a specific state comes with its own responsibilities and consequences. If Russian nationals have long moved out of Russia and migrated elsewhere and don’t support anything Russia does, why are they still Russian citizens? If they don’t want to get sanctioned and they’ve long migrated from Russia they should apply for citizenship elsewhere. If they choose to stay Russian citizens that’s on them.
As for nationality vs citizenship. Nationality is too vague of a term because it can mean both citizen of a state and originating from said state. I’m pretty sure in this case the discussion is about people who are Russian citizens, not people who originate from Russia but are no longer associated with them. Using nationality only muddies the discussion.
Congratulation, you are part of the problem!
So what are we supposed to do?
Not sanction Russia?
Apply sanctions on an individual basis?
EDIT: Nothing of value down below, just me and someone who only wants to be outraged. Delve deeper of your own accord.
Are you under the impression I’m some kind of strategical genius of political negotiation? I have no idea.
My point is that holding everybody responsible for what the specific form of government of the specific country they happened to be born into is a confortable truth to push back on the much more controversial take of all of us being the very same thing.
And to get slightly more practical, it’s asinine to suggest that anybody that disagrees with a government has the means, or the will, or the duty to straight up move to another country (obviously to a flawless country, good luck with that).
I’ll ask differently. Let’s just assume there is a way to make sure there is no overreach of sanctions, but it’s going to cost millions of tax dollars or euros. Would you rather have that money spent on things that are close to you (education, healthcare, infrastructure etc) or would you want that money to be spent identifying which Russians should or shouldn’t be sanctioned?
I agree, somethings shit just sucks. However, the other person said:
Those people have already had the means, will or duty to move to another country. What’s their excuse for keeping the Russian citizenship?
There’s plenty of reason, the most likely is that they love their country, their homeland, their city, the network of friends, the memories and they hope, one day, to be able to get back.
Would you still love me if I was a giant moth?
So it’s literally their decision to keep their citizenship and be sanctioned, but you’re still outraged about it?
I would definitely hate you less because I really hate trolls.
I’m not a troll but it’s unsurprising you are quick to hate considering your opinions toward mankind.
A country is not their government, their history is not their current posturing, the action of their military is not the expression of their local communities. The idea that since you are attached to a certain place is equivalent to sharing the broad general responsibility of its actions through history is what ultimately fuels shit like, you guessed it, the Russian invasion of Ukrain itself.
You’re literally avoiding answering the hard questions and instead throw up shit like that moth thing. That is standard troll behavior. Just because you want to believe you’re not a troll doesn’t mean you aren’t one. Go on, prove me wrong, do the non-troll thing and actually answer my questions instead of tip-toeing around them.
Technically they are. The country is the governing body set up by the people that make up said country. In the case of Russia that government is corrupted and that government is to the detriment to its own people and now also a detriment to the surrounding countries. I am sympathetic to the struggles of the average Russian, but unlike you I don’t live in la-la land where everyone gets to have and eat their cake. They’ve let their country slip into corruption and ultimately that is on them because we can’t fix that without an even greater conflict. They’ve let their government get corrupted and the actions of that corrupt government has brought sanctions upon them.
And I get that not all of them are to blame, but we get back to the questions you deliberately avoided. Are we not supposed to sanction Russia and let them have their way with Ukraine? If we should sanction Russia and there is a costly way to make sure those sanctions wouldn’t overreach, do you want your tax money to be spent essentially on the well-being of Russians. Even if you know you’re likely to gain little to no benefit from that spending?
I was making what I thought was an obvious equivalence between your realistically impossible to answer question to the impossible question an insecure partner blurts out.
Are you asking what value I give money? What price I put on human lives? If I would give up everything to keep the innocents out of harm?
You see your question is way too broad.
But of fucking course I’d be willing to spend more not to impart sufference in innocent strangers, that’s the point of most things people do daily when it comes to being an ethical being. Would you enjoy saving money if Police would simply arrest everybody in a 2Km range from any murder location and call it a day?
Then give those maintainers your money to get them out of Russia and help them get a different citizenship so they wouldn’t be affected by the sanctions. If you don’t have that money start a go-fund-me. After-all you said you’d give up everything to keep the innocent out of harm.
My question isn’t about money, it’s about how far you’re willing to inconvenience yourself to help those unfairly treated Russians. The tax thing is just the bare minimum anyone could do because we’re paying taxes anyway. It takes no extra effort on your part, it’s just a question of where your tax money gets spent. Your quality of life drops but at least you know the wrong Russian didn’t get sanctioned. Is that the inconvenience you’re willing to make?
I don’t see you making any inconveniences. I don’t see you making any effort beyond being outraged on the web. But feel free to prove me wrong.
I never said I’m willing to give up everything…
Anyway, your “arguments” boil down to a shifting grey area between, “they deserve it” and a very dispassionate “there’s no alternative”.
It’s simplistic and dangerous. I hope you are young.
Have a day.
Like I said, you’re not wiling to do anything beyond being outraged on the web. My argument is very simple. We need to do something about the Russian invasion of Ukraine and that something is supposed to be something that is as inconvenient as it can be to Russia, while being as little of an inconvenience to us. Part of that something is broad strokes sanctions. The more specific you want those sanctions to be the more inconvenient it becomes for us. And by doing nothing you’re agreeing with me because you’re not willing to inconvenience yourself for those Russians.
You think I’m being simplistic and dangerous, you’re the one wanting to have your cake and eat it. I understand that there’s a clear trade-off in what you’re demanding and I understand that most people, including you, are not actually willing to take that trade-off. You’re the one being childish and throwing a tantrum because you’re not getting everything you want.
Let me go back to the root of your ever shifting discussion:
Yes and that is not very much.
I’m not sure where and why you started going on about my personal hypocrisy toward the application of santions as the best strategy to counter Russian expansionism or how much it is agreeable as something to apply to the whole of the population.
The way you denigrate different opinions, it seems you may be the one to think that, actually.
That’s just the misanthropy leaking…
It’s besides the point because with the Linux kernel should be run under a principle akin to net-neutrality where we do not let geopolitics affect it (do you really want Trump’s America to have legal power over it?)
The solution here is simple, just do not kick the maintainers unless they have confirmed ties to the Russian state. It’s not always practical to make sanctions precisely targeted, but in this case it actually is easily so.
Let us all love Lain 😁
Other than that, can we still trust .ru and .su domains?
Nobody could ever trust .su domains, it’s always been a hive of scum and villainy. No joke, it’s been notorious for scamming and various cyber crime, which is a shame since it’s a great novelty domain.
Many know it from piracy 🤭
The worst cyber crime of them all, denying multi-national megacorps of the potential but unlikely revenue of several dollars! 👮
And you don’t seem to understand ~~
I wouldn’t, personally. It’s not like Russians cannot obtain non-.ru domains and if anything those anti-war are inclined to do so to avoid scrutiny, especially with anti-putin russian news orgs like e.g. meduza.
Definitely not .su unless you know what you’re doing and what you’re doing is some sketchy shit.
Exactly. ACF has published a list of every single person responsible for the war. Most of them are not sanctioned because they are filthy rich and have already bought themselves passports in various EU countries. Targeting Russian passports does absolutely nothing to them as they can just use another.
Sanctions are to punish the whole country including individuals. Sanctions work because it makes lives of individuals worse so that they have reason to be unhappy and do something against the reasons the sanctions is put on them. It makes it harder for leaders to be accepted, if under their power live gets worse. And if a leader is not accepted by enough of their people, the chances of resistance is bigger. And the countries that have put sanctions on, want exactly that.
This idea ignores how Russia works. Everyone already knows it’s a totalitarian shithole. They just don’t have the means to fight it, so they either lay low and play along, or try to get the fuck out. Sanctions hit the second group, as well as companies that implement them because they’re losing income. In fact, older folk here still grumble at USSR collapse and how effective free reign of capitalism was in the 90s at extracting wealth out of the country.
Even if that idea was to hold any water, straight up blocks are not what you’d need. For example, when I open up a site and I see a block page, the idea that pops into my head is always the same - “what a bunch of assholes…”. I can bypass the block either way, but the difference is that it can say either “blocked by the ministry of truth”, or “blocked because ur russian, haha get rekt”. Given how easy it is to get hit by censorship for innocent things, it’s rather easy to shift the blame, while keeping the business running, by just standing up to the ideas of free speech, like not removing the “celebrating the pride month” logo in that country specifically, like all of them did…
I guess the politicians of the countries having the sanctions in place have still to see and learn how the Russian people react to sanctions. I think many of them only know the Russian culture from some “schoolbooks” if even (like me 😅)
I maintain US citizenship as the only biological child of my parents in case I need to be there for them due to an emergency or, later, end-of-life care. I cannot move them to Japan nor would they want to.
So hypothetically let’s say there’s a project or a job or anything of the sorts that you personally want to do, and that something requires that you’re not an US citizenship. I assume you’d stick with your parents and not get a Japanese citizenship. Would you accept that as the compromise you personally have to make (choosing the wellbeing of your parents over the thing you want to do) or would you complain that you’re being treated unfairly?
I would stick with my parents. I also have other citizenship and Japan would require giving up all citizenship to become a Japanese citizen. I would complain that it is bullshit as I do today about Japan's current citizenship laws.
Okay, but that’s irrelevant. I simply pointed at Japanese citizenship because your brought up Japan. The compromise was between keeping US citizenship to take care of your parents vs renouncing the US citizenship to do the thing you want to do. And you compromised to take care of your parents. That is a decision you would make.
So why are you defending the Russians abroad who have decided to keep their Russian citizenship? They also have a choice between keeping the Russian citizenship and fall under sanctions or renounce their citizenship and not fall under sanctions. It’s their decision to make.
As for Russians within Russia. Sad to say but they’re fucked regardless. I imagine the sanctions preventing them from working on Linux is the least of their problems. And as I pointed out in my other comment, would you be willing to spend your tax dollars to make sure the right Russians get sanctioned instead of spending those tax dollars in a way that would benefit you?
It’s even more problematic for users of Linux. Less maintainers.
True, but that’s because Linux is kind of in a bind due to this war, but Linux probably benefits more from aligning with the western powers rather than fight for a handful of maintainers. Not that Linus would fight for Russian maintainers.
Partially agree: money by itself do not maintain Linux. You need a man - willing and competent one.
We’ll see, whether empty positions would be filled or not.
Have you ever thought about doing this yourself? Don’t have to go far to figure that it takes at least 5 years of hard work in most cases, if possible at all. Citizenship unfortunately isn’t something you can acquire or renounce at will. Not without being obscenely rich, that is.
I never said it’s easy. I can understand someone keeping their citizenship out of convenience because the process of obtaining a different citizenship is difficult. However, I wouldn’t call it impossible. Based on my country the most time-consuming part about getting the citizenship is having to actually live here, which is at least 8 years under the residency permit. The language proficiency test and constitution (and citizenship act) examinations take an effort but are not insurmountable if you’re serious about getting a different citizenship. I haven’t gone through the process itself because I’ve never had the need, but based on what the legal requirements are I don’t see how that’s only for the obscenely rich. If you’re permanently settled elsewhere it’s a matter of time and effort.
I think my point still stands. If they have the option to choose a different citizenship and they choose not to, that’s on them. And when it comes to this specific instance I’m assuming some good will on from the rest of Linux maintainers. Hartman said “They can come back in the future if sufficient documentation is provided.” I assume if the Russian maintainers showed that they’ve passed the citizenship examinations and their different citizenship is only a matter of time, then that should be sufficient documentation to get them back on the list.
Is it any 8 years, or continious 8 years? In most places, the requirement is for continious, which is a tough ask. Imagine not being able to leave the country for almost a decade.
And you need a reason to get residence permit. In most cases there are few: living with spouse, reuniting with family, working, studying, or doing business. Of those, only work, study and business are the ones that are realistically achievable.
For work, there’s usually also a requirement for employeer to prove that there are no natives available to fill the role. This is a tough process, which takes a lot of time and no guarantee it’d even get approved. So, not many employees even bother unless you have exceptional skills.
For study, you would have to actually study to avoid expulsion, while somehow earning enough on some part-time remote work to support yourself (or have enough savings to support yourself for years). And then, bachelors is not enough so you must go for PhD. Meanwhile, in both above cases you have to also learn local language. I’m sure there are people who could pull this off, but, again, it’s quite exceptional.
Last is business. Usually the requirement is to invest somewhere in the ranges of $100k to $500k into local economy. That’s not filthy rich, but, for context, for Russian it’d take 3 years of fighting on the frontlines to earn as much, with a wage considered good enough to risk dying for… And then the country can still deny you permit without any reason.
It’s because of this, most people I know, who chose to leave the country keep their passports and either settle in Armenia and Georgia with 182/365 days renewable visa-free entry, or run circles between Serbia-Montenegro or Thailand-Vietnam.
There are also interesting opportunities with digital nomad visas, but, again, the requirements out of reach for most.
But for oligarchs, this is pennies. They can buy a few outright, then fly private jet to the US as tourists with pregnant wives, get children born there, then send them to study in London. Apply for family reunifications, bam, theyre now citizens of US and UK, in addition to all previous ones.
It’s the other way around. You have to live for X years to be eligible for the test. Given a common requirement of 5 years, they would have to have started this process 2 years before the war broke out.
Lolwut. Russia isn’t even a democracy.
You really think Joe Schmoe Ignoramus from Shaboygan, Wisconsin just trying to buy gas is to be held responsible for the civilian deaths in Palestine? War in Iraq? Unhinged.
No, because being a citizen of a state is not a choice. You are born where you’re born.
Because they may have family (e.g. elderly parents that require care) there and prospects of being able to visit otherwise aren’t great.
But that’s besides the fact actually getting a citizenship in another country is very very difficult. I’ve been in the UK for like 15 years, since 10 or so years old, and only just barely eligible now, gonna take another 2 years if not more to go through the process.
Your entire comment is “Tell me you’re a westerner without the least bit of awareness of how immigration works without telling me.” basically, living happily with a golden US passport or in the Schengen, not how it works for the majority of the world, or there’d be no one left in the global south.
No it really can’t.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationality
Oh boy. I’ll respond only once and if you throw another wall of text I’m just fucking off.
Officially it is. I know in practice it isn’t but the only ones who realistically can turn it into an actual democracy are Russian people. I don’t think we should give them an exception just because their country has gone to shit.
Directly responsible? No. Indirectly? Yes. It’s like people have no fucking clue what a country is. It doesn’t just prop up out of nowhere. Someone somewhere defined a country and when it comes to democracies (even dysfunctional ones like Russia and the US) the people set up the country for themselves. It’s their country and whether they like it or not, they are collectively responsible for what their country does. If they’re not responsible then who is responsible for the US supporting Israel? The politicians? Who votes the politicians in power? The people. The Lobbyists? The lobbyists lobby to politicians and the politicians get chosen by the people. The masses being stupid and easy to manipulate is a different topic, but it doesn’t change that despite collectively making bad decisions the people are making those decisions.
It literally is. If it wasn’t a choice you couldn’t choose to become a citizen of a different state. Your initial citizenship isn’t a choice because you’re born with it but you’re also born with your initial sex, doesn’t mean you can’t choose a different sex as you grow older.
And that’s their decision to keep their citizenship. Just like it would be my decision if I chose to have a diarrhea takeaway today. Or should I blame my diarrhea on you?
I can’t believe I took the effort to look up how UK citizenship works but if you’re only barely eligible after 15 years you are clearly leaving out some key information. The “don’t be poor” part of ILR is kinda stupid so if it’s that I get it, but beyond that you shouldn’t be barely eligible unless you’ve sloppy with your visa’s or have been regularly traveling in and out of the UK.
And my point is that while getting a citizenship can be difficult, it is not impossible.
It clearly was vague considering how many other comments are mixing up someone being born in Russia or having Russian heritage with someone actually being Russian. And to point to the exact same wiki page:
Cute.
Don’t hold your breath. Russians are absolutely scared into submission and honestly they’re not wrong to be scared. Political prisoners don’t have any real human rights nor do their families. In a country where the average person can barely scrounge for a car, a well-funded, organized resistance is unlikely to accomplish anything so complex and significant as a revolution towards democracy on their own.
That said, it’s not like there isn’t anything at all being done:
…wikipedia.org/…/Opposition_to_Vladimir_Putin_in_…
Protests against Putin have been going on for a long-time, but Navalny’s death has slowed things down somewhat. More openly acts of anti-government terrorism and openly fighting for Ukraine have been happening also:
…wikipedia.org/…/Belarusian_and_Russian_partisan_…
…wikipedia.org/…/Combat_Organization_of_Anarcho-C…
These are far braver people than I, god bless and godspeed to them. But also, not something you can expect the average Joe Schmoe to be.
It’s not an exception, it’s the rule. People and governments are almost entirely separate. State is an oppressor of the people that exists to benefit the top 1% and corporations, more often than not it acts in complete opposition to the interests of the people and they have no power to change it, whether it’s outright a military dictatorship, one-party rule (China), practical one-party rule (Japan), two-party system (US), practical two-party system (UK) or otherwise.
You can’t choose, you can try to become one but for 99% of people it’s not possible. You are in total ignorance of the realities of immigration. My parents were no oligarchs, but they were definitely really well-off, and if not for that I’d never have immigrated.
Not to mention:
Yeah, but it also is a helluva undertaking. Transitioning fully takes 10+ years easily in practice and either being very lucky and living in a country with nationalised healthcare and having the patience of a saint to not only wait the eternal waitlists but also fight through both the incompetence, the lack of understanding and outright malice or have tens of thousands of dollars burning a hole in your pocket.
It’s actually why people don’t actually choose to do it. It’s a hassle. In practice, you need to be motivated by something very hardcore, like a disorder that causes ever-present severe mental pain for instance - like Gender Dysphoria - to be able to see it through.
I started 9 years ago, and only just had SRS a few months back, and I still have all the legal shit ahead of me too. There are ways I could’ve optimized it, but hindsight is 20/20, and after countless nights wondering if I could’ve done it earlier and faster, the answer is yes, but only slightly so, or if I was simply orders of magnitude more rich, and not a semi-broke uni student for most of it.
When it comes to immigrating from somewhere like Russia to somewhere like the US or UK, even on top of the 10 years and enormous amounts of luck, talent and constant effort (education, job searching is 10x harder) the monetary figure gets up to hundreds of thousands of dollars easily.
No, but you should be a pragmatist and understand that it’s not realistic to suggest people never get takeaway at all, because it’s for instance - unhealthy - which is true in many cases.
People smoke, do drugs, drink alcohol and eat sugary foods despite all that, and self-control is kind of a myth, it has a lot more to do with one’s circumstances than oneself. E.g. for someone who’s only source of happiness in a dreary day is a bottle of a beer, it’s gonna be a lot harder to stop than for someone who didn’t care that much for it in the first place because they’re rich and t
It’s disappointing behavior by Linus. It’s understandable that sanctions could force the removal of people just for being Russia.
His reply however shows he personally is in favor of removing people just for being Russian.
I wonder if any of the people who pressured him to take some time off for being a “jerk” will give a shit for this response.
Isn’t that a violation of the GPL?
You sound surprised. Lemmy.world is the biggest propaganda instance on Lemmy but they’ll tell you it isn’t and it’s only propaganda when the other guys do it.
Nah, that honor definitely goes to lemmy.ml
Nah, pretty sure lemmygrad and hexbear are worse, but lemmy.ml is pretty terrible as well (and often more subtle).
They migrated to lemmy.ml because they kept getting blocked.
After browsing comments on this post I think there’s awful people on basically all instances.
True, but there’s a pretty big difference in terms of concentration.
Have you ever wondered if a russian can get a non .ru domain, and still collaborate? .ru and .su tlds are directly controlled by the Russian state
One of the mainrainers had a gmail.
Yeah for sure. If that’s the basis then just block those domains. Unless I misunderstood, which is totally possible, it doesn’t seem like that’s the entire extent of the block.
I thought it said expulsion of Russian Mountaineers so that was pretty confusing
It’s really such a shame that the mountaineers always take so much credit when the Linux sherpas do so much of the work.
The central project of open-source community closes doors to people based on nationality, and everyone is cheering…
Why? You seriously miss the implications of breaking the very basic principles of open source? You are ready to forgive literally anything if it is claimed to target Russia or Russians in any way?
For those of you who say about backdoors:
The only reasonable way to avoid backdoors is to meticulously check the submitted code. Threat actors can be anywhere - and Russia is not some unique threat location, nor was it banned with that justification - just “compliance requirements”.
This is politics permeating the sacred place we all had. This is a giant threat to the community, and the way Linus framed it in his message is even more terrifying. This was never meant to happen.
Torvalds responses make clear he has spent too much time with the wrong people. Calling everyone paid actors is such an embarrassment to his own intelligence. When the linux kernel starts falling behind because of a lack of competent maintainers after banning any country that NATO isnt friends with, we will know that this is where it started and that people cheered.
Yeah, arguing that everyone disagreeing is a paid Russian troll is a cherry on top.
So you think Russian trolls wouldn’t want to spin this narrative? By virtue of what? Honor?
No, I just say that writing down any disagreement to the evil intentions of someone in power is extremely counterproductive.
There is plenty of people who are in sincere disagreement over this decision, and Linus just tries to silence them. This ain’t alright and leads to direct abuse of power.
This is literally a chapter of an authoritarian playbook.
.
I’m actually shocked by how people are acting about this.
You see, it’s actually a really bad thing to ban devs from an open source project based on nationality over all else. “Oh, but they are state actors!!!” How do you know? Because they are Russian?
Exactly! Being Russian doesn’t mean having any political affiliation.
Moreover, even Russia the state is adopting Linux and is greatly disinterested in messing it up. If anything, this could really be the attack on Linux-reliant Russian infrastructure, but even then it most likely will be a reason for a fork, no more, no less.
OK, this is bs.
They’re not banning devs, they’re banning maintainers.
Russians can submit as many patches as they like for review, they just can’t sign off on their commits themselves.
Seems pretty fair to me.
I’m not. Ever since the war, every single closet xenophobe of the west has been taking full advantage of finally having an acceptable group of subhumans to hate. If any of this surprises you, you haven’t been paying attention.
It seems they’re not being removed because they’re Russian, but instead because they work for specific companies who are subject to US sanctions:
Which is the job of maintainers. Which now aren’t Russian, any more. To the best of my knowledge the kernel is still accepting code from Russian citizens, ultimately not having Russians in maintainer roles isn’t going to stop the FSB from infiltrating the kernel but it certainly does make it harder.
This also isn’t in any way a judgement on the removed people, it’s just that it so happens that if you’re a Russian citizen you’re quite vulnerable to wrench attacks. You could even say that the kernel org is protecting them from being used like that.
“Protective restrictions” is a code for discrimination. Or would you argue that not allowing, idk, women to vote is a good measure for protecting them against being violently coerced to vote one way or another?
(this is a random example, just a small mark so I wouldn’t be eaten alive)
Open source IP laws operate under the jurisdiction of the citizen’s country. What kind of principles do you think open source represents? Because if it’s about free movement of information and global collaboration, I’m pretty sure that pirates are the group that better represents those values
Arrrgh!
No, the basic principles of open source are either the four freedoms (if you agree w/ Stallman) or the OSI open source definition. Here are Stallman’s four freedoms:
Russians still have these freedoms WRT the Linux kernel. They can still run, study, and redistribute modified versions of the Linux kernel. There’s no violation here.
And the OSI definition is similar (and longer, so I won’t repeat it here).
No part of the definitions of open source or free software obligate a maintainer to work with anyone else, the only obligations are to the legal freedom of the code. Russians can still use, modify, and redistribute the software, they just aren’t allowed to have maintainer positions within the Linux foundation. They can still submit code, and it’s up to the maintainers if they choose to look at that code.
That said, I’m sad that it has come to this. I hate the idea of international politics interfering w/ FOSS, but I still maintain that it’s 100% fine for Linus Torvalds (and his legal counsel) to make this call. So I agree with the core of your argument, that politics interfering w/ FOSS is bad, but I disagree that it violates any part of the basic concept of FOSS, FOSS maintainers should always be able to decide who they work with, and the rest of the community gets to decide if they’re okay with that or if they’d rather follow someone else’s fork.
Fair on your part, I might’ve gone too far with my argument.
I was talking more about collaborative nature and what happens to it when the major open-surce project decides to gatekeep based on something highly arbitrary.
Linux is long past a simple hobby project, and it should be managed responsibly and with respect to the people that make this all happen.
Sure, the roots of FOSS came from collaboration, with people sharing code between universities and whatnot. But the process has always been “here are my changes, take them if you like.” So even the term “collaboration” is a bit of a stretch, since it was almost always a bunch of solo efforts and people would pull in the changes they like. The idea of any kind of structure to FOSS development was added later to help organize it, but the foundation was always someone working on a thing and then advertising those changes for others to pull, if they wanted.
A collaborative project would work something like Python where a core team decides which features to add (i.e. PEPs), and people on the dev team or the community at large would develop those features, and any development that’s not part of those approved features tend to be rejected until it goes through the review process.
Linux isn’t particularly collaborative in that sense, it’s more like the old-school FOSS development process where individual developers would build a thing, use it themselves, and then submit their changes for upstream consideration. I worked on a team where we maintained our own kernel patches separate from upstream for years before trying to submit them upstream, and every time we’d upgrade the kernel, we’d have to reapply the patches, occasionally fixing some things that had changed. The network of maintainers is largely a convenience for working in this more chaotic model, where maintainers are responsible for reviewing and passing along changes for a certain area of the kernel, they don’t actually guide development in any meaningful way.
So the main change here is that Russian contributors can still contribute, they just aren’t trusted as inner-circle reviewers. It’s still collaborative in the same sense that it has always been, there’s just a bit more scrutiny over which reviews to trust.
in today’s political landscape: genocide is acceptable and ignorable; progressives are dirty commies that you should ignore at all costs; and being russian is enough to get you kicked out of contributions to FOSS and all this comes from people who call themselves “liberal”.
A lemmy.ml user criticising others for supposedly believing genocide is acceptable. Remarkable.
Russia is committing a genocide in Ukraine.
Some sanctioned Russian companies can no longer have maintainers in the kernel. Boo fucking hoo.
And kicked out of all FOSS contributions? Why are you lying? Russians can still contribute.
Russians can still contribute code, don’t bundle those together just to have something to list. You are correct about pegasus, but this is about kernel and rights to commit without review.
The comment right above you is fantasising about how America will have to disarm russia and execute the army and install a puppet government. It’s not that people don’t care about America, it’s that they cheer for it’s crimes.
How is this keeping to open source philosophies in any way?
“No, you can’t work on this, you’re Russian.”
I don’t support the Russian Government or its actions in any way, but these devs are probably not part of it. They maintain drivers for fucking ASUS hardware.
.
Because there are both US and EU laws preventing code from countries deemed a threat. Torvalds is paid by the Ameircan Linux Foundation, which has to work under US law and he himself is an EU citizen. Also a lot of other developers are from those countries and if they do not comply, they could get into some pretty bad legal trouble.
So it pretty much boils down to kick out the Russians or kick out all US and EU citizens and well we see Linus choice.
It’s not that hard of a choice either ofc, given one is essentially required.
risc-v saw this coming a while ago and moved to Switzerland to avoid it.
Switzerland is being routinely strong-armed these days.
😯🤔 maybe I should look that up, where exactly 😂would be fun to work on RISC-V
You can work on RISC-V wherever you are, just post your patches publicly so anyone can get them, regardless of their jurisdiction.
Yea, just checked their job board, most is remote anyway 😂
And it’s also FOSS, so there’s nothing stopping you from working on it w/o officially working for them.
I think people didn’t understand that I am joking 😅
Yeah, wasn’t sure because RISC-V is showing up in commercial products now, so you could absolutely be referring to an actual paid job.
That’s the start, of course. One could always play good cop, bad cop: “I have to do this to comply with the law, sorry, there’s nothing else I can do.” What Linus has done here is play bad cop, bad cop: “the law says I have to obey sanctions, and by the way I support the sanctions and this move anyway.”
He didn’t banned the Russians when the war started, he could, and probably wanted, but didn’t so what’s your point?
Do you also know Finland is next to russia and it does not have to be US influence for someone like Linus to know Russian gov can pressure developers? This change removes code commit not the contribution rights.
This has nothing to do with open source. If Russians want to work on the Linux kernel, they’re absolutely free to do so, because the source code is free and open source. What they are being restricted from is getting their changes submitted to the normal Linux foundation trees. FOSS doesn’t mean you’re entitled to have the maintainer of a project look at your patches, it means you can use the software however you want.
And yeah, it makes me sad that Russian kernel maintainers are being excluded. That doesn’t mean it’s a violation of open source philosophies (a maintainer can exclude anyone they want for any reason), it just means it’s an unfortunate policy due to international sanctions.
I actually just emailed RMS about this and I’m genuinely curious what he says. If anyone else is interested, I’ll ask if he’s fine with me sharing some of the response.
Oh yes, an update would be really interesting! (Even though I agree with @sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works in all points.)
My opinion on this whole topic: I don’t like the decision, a Free Software project should only prevent people from contributing in very rare occasions (e.g. having actively tried to sabotage the project). I don’t think this was the case, because I presume that the Linux Foundation was forced by the U.S. government to kick the maintainers out. The should’ve also communicated more clearly to prevent the confusion. (Russian trolls will cry out no matter how they phrased that.)
Edit: Depending on their power as a maintainer, they might be hired by intelligence and forced to just wave a backdoor through. With the Russian government waging a hybrid war against the U.S. and Europe, this poses a real problem.
Another Edit: @Allero@lemmy.today mentioned that apart from Russia, the U.S., Israel and China also have a very well funded intelligence service. So banning Russian maintainers because of a potential backdoor when there are American maintainers (which could be agents) as well? I don’t think it makes sense, but unfortunately the Linux Foundation won’t be able to resist the “complience requirements”.
Just what we need. The opinions of someone who thinks having sex with children is a good thing.
He never said that. I agree he was more skeptical than I’d like, but he eventually was informed and apologized.
You are mistaken:
RMS on June 28th, 2003
RMS on June 5th, 2006
RMS on Jan 4th, 2013
None of those say it is good. I disagree with him, he also disagrees with him and apologized for saying that. But that is very different from saying its good. I don’t think alcohol is good, I also don’t think it should be illegal.
Huh?
He said it’s a shame that paedophilia is outlawed and that it was narrow-mindedness that made it so.
He said it’s untrue that having sex with children harms them.
And yeah, he later apologised and said he doesn’t believe it anymore… 2 days after his job became on the line.
Ask yourself this:
A man has been publicly championing raping children for decades. Publicly. He firmly believes he should have the right to fuck children.
News media hears about this, and now his job seems untenable.
All of a sudden, the man claimed changed his mind, that he’s completely reversed his opinion (that he held for decades and publicly shouted to the world). In just 2 days, he’s gone from thinking it’s a tragedy that you can’t fuck children, to thinking fucking a child is bad.
Do you believe him? Or do you think he’s just saying anything he can to try to keep his job?
There’s a big difference between “it’s unfortunate that adults can’t fuck children, it really should be legalised. People against fucking toddlers are just bigots” and “well I don’t like alcohol, but I think it should be legal”
How you just equated raping a child and drinking a glass of wine is beyond me. Wow.
First of all, none of those things are saying its good.
I think you need to be more realistic about who he and others are and try to understand why they have the beliefs they do, a lot of them are differences in personal and social awareness/ability. An analogy(I know you struggle with these, sorry its just the way I communicate and explain my thoughts), but would you look at someone with dyslexia and use them struggling with reading as an excuse to completely invalidated their opinions and views on everything else?
Stallman has deeply ideological beliefs, one of them being radical freedom of choice. He looked at pedophilia through that, because that’s what his conception of the world(and therefore ability to perceive it) allows. To be totally blunt I think its an “autistic” struggling with understanding the feelings of others(that many on here and Reddit also have) that lead to him focusing on his ideological perspective. I think he “put himself in the shoes” of kids, and thought, “I want to be able to engage in consensual relationships” he didn’t consider that not everyone is him, or how he would feel in circumstances different from ones he’s experienced. This combined with his ideological conviction made him fail to understand how kids lack an ability to consent.
If he really apologized to keep his job, I don’t know. But he has and continues to say deeply controversial things that cost him opportunities. He also still leads Gnu and FSF. I think its possible he just was upset about the situation, talked to someone he trusts about why people are responding this way, and they explained it in a way he could understand and he changed his mind.
I did not equate them. But also don’t underestimate the damage alcohol has had on the world. Child rape is bad, I have never denied that.
He literally says it’s bad that child rape is illegal, then goes on about how if you’re against it you’re a bigot. In what world is that not him saying it’s good?
Saying you believe his is autistic is a disgusting defence. Being autistic doesn’t excuse believing it’s a good thing to have sex with children. Autistic people don’t believe that.
Yes you did equate them.
Having a glass of wine and pinning down your toddler and fucking him are NOT the same. Jesus Christ.
And Stallman doesn’t think the same. He thinks it’s good.
And yeah. You think it’s as bad as sipping a pint of ale…
Because they’re different things? Again this is why I said the analogy. Saying prohibition of alcohol is bad is different from saying alcohol is good. That’s not equating alcohol and pedos, its an analogy on how saying something is good is different from saying it shouldn’t be illegal.
Its an explanation of why I think he might have had an opinion I think is disgusting. The defense is that he admitted he was wrong and apologized. Having a wrong belief isn’t a crime, he didn’t rape any kids, so he doesn’t have anything to be “punished” for. And being wrong in the past about ethics is completely different from beliefs on free software- and you know that. You’re just using it as an ad hominem.
What? There are plenty of autistic people that have a wide variety of beliefs
No I didn’t, stop lying about me. Analogy is not equating, I have no clue why this has to be explained.
He did not say its good, and he does now think the same as he said.
I am tempted to think you’re trolling seeing as you’re ignoring what I actually wrote and instead just going for cheap attacks. Please stop engaging in bad faith.
He says people are bigoted if they’re against people fucking children. That’s him saying having sex with children is a good thing.
Agreed. However if you said “I think it’s unfortunate alcohol is banned. If you are against consuming alcohol then you are a bigot.” Then that instead points to you believing alcohol is good.
Yes it is.
No it fucking isn’t. Having mild autism is not an explanation for thinking pinning down a four year old and giving them some dick is a good thing.
He believes that because he’s a sick fuck who believes in paedophilia. Not because of autism. Autism doesn’t make you like that at all.
Yep, I’ve already covered this. He did a complete 180 2 days after it became apparent his job was on the line. It wasn’t genuine remorse, it was a last-ditch effort to save his own skin.
Being autistic doesn’t cause you to believe raping kids is a good thing. Stop pretending it does. You must really hate autistic people if you’re willing to paint them with that brush.
Yes you did.
Having a glass of wine is not like fucking a four year old. Stop.
Yes he did. And his opinion has not changed.
I hope you’re trolling, because if not you’re a fucking psychopath who denies genocide and thinks keeping a toddler as a sex slave is morally equivelant to having a Heineken, and that both should be equally legal.
Please for the love of god be a troll.
Here’s an analogy there is no way you can lie about(though you’ll probably find a way): Saying someone is bigoted if they make fun of arachnophobia is not the same thing as saying arachnophobia is good. And I’m not equating arachnophobia to pedos. Opposing opposition to X is not the same thing as supporting X, its possible to be neutral on X. I’m not neutral on pedos, I think pedos are bad and gross. I think it is wrong to be neutral on pedos, but it is factually inaccurate to say that being “neutral on X” == “X is a good thing”.
Thank you!!! This makes me so happy genuinely!!! You responded to what I actually said!! So you did get it! So why do you keep lying about it?
Anyways, my excitement aside, you’re fine to think that. But I do disagree that that’s the analogy of what you’re saying Stallman said, instead it would be closer to "I think it’s unfortunate alcohol is banned. If you are against letting people consuming alcohol then you are a bigot.”
Which is not necessarily pro-alchohol. Another example, imagine a government that banned a religion, say Buddhism, you could say "I think it’s unfortunate Buddhism is banned. If you are against letting people practice Buddhism then you are a bigot.”- that statement is not necessarily pro-Buddhist, its just anti-prohibition of Buddhism.
Awww my excitement is gone
It literally is an explanation. You’re free to think the explanation is wrong and bad, but its still an explanation.
I didn’t say it was because of autism. I said its because he failed to empathize with victims, yk a symptom of “autism”.
He’s still fired from MIT so why doesn’t he backtrack if he still believes it?
Never said it does, stop lying about me.
My pain is immeasurable. Please quote where I said those exact words.
Why’d he stop saying it then?
Genuinely why are you still responding if you honestly believe that’s what I said? Just to insult me?
I don’t hide behind a pseudonym to be toxic to people on the internet.
Why do you keep lying about this? He repeatedly defended raping children.
He thinks raping children should be legal.
He thinks anybody against raping children is bigoted.
He thinks raping children is good.
Stop equating drinking alcohol to raping a child. They aren’t comparable.
I’m being toxic? Mate you’re being an apologist for genocide and child rape. I’m not the toxic one here.
I’m not, you are the one lying about what I said.
Yep, and that was very bad, and I never denied that. I denied that he said it was good.
Thought*
Thought*
He never said that
I didn’t.
You’re intentionally lying about what I said as an excuse to insult me rather than actually respond to what I said.
No I’m not
No, he thinks raping children is a good thing.
Saying “thought” implies he no longer does.
Yes you are.
Again, he never said that.
He claims he no longer does, can you read his mind?
Quote what exactly I said that was either of those things.
He did say that.
Do you believe he suddenly changed his mind on an opinion he held and shouted to the world, 2 days after it became apparent he might lose his job over it?
If someone committed fraud, then went to court and said “your honour, I actually agree with you. Fraud is wrong. I came to that conclusion this morning.” would you believe them?
It’s what all of your comments have been about. Don’t play dumb.
Why didn’t he reverse then? He’s never seemed shy about sharing his opinions before.
An opinion however gross isn’t a crime.
I never said it, that’s why you can’t quote it
He did reverse, that’s my point.
Never said it was. Now can you answer the question. Would you believe this person was genuine?
You’ve said it constantly. Child rape isn’t ok.
Russians aren’t restricted from getting their changes submitted, they just can’t be maintainers. This means that they need another maintainer to approve their changes, just like if you or me were to submit a change. A lot of people seem to be misunderstanding what actually happened.
Just goes to show that even a legend can act like an idiot.
Like not risking his lifelyhood to fight US and EU sanctions against a genocidal regime?
Exactly. He obviously isn’t the one pushing for this, because if he was, he would’ve done it when the war started (or even before). That said, as a Finn, he doesn’t have any reason to stand up for Russians, so when legal push comes to shove, there’s not a good argument for him pushing back.
He makes a habit of that tbh (See tivoization, etc)
I mean he’s legally obligated to, not really a choice. He can say screw it, but then he opens himself up to legal troubles.
Absolutely idiotic take that endangers not only Linux but fractures the concept of open source itself.
Was worth it just to see you morons fume
I think it’s a great change. But then again I’m not a lemmy.ml user.
Thinking this endangers Linux is pretty hilarious. Linux will be fine without a handful of Russian maintainers lol.
Does anybody really believe that the whole Linux project will fall apart because of this?
Go look at the principles of open-source or free software as defined either by the OSI and the FSF and then come back when you find the one that says that Linus needs to violate US sanctions to keep employees of Russian companies in trusted roles within his project.
You know. I don't like what the Russian leadership and military are doing. I feel like ultimately we're in the cold war era. But you know, at the height of the cold war, radio operators around the world still worked Russian stations.
Yes, there was a very clear policy, neither side talked about ANYTHING beyond their signal report and working conditions (information about radio, power output and aerial basically). At the height of the actual cold war, the individuals were not cancelled like this.
Sanction the leadership, sanction the money, and sanction the military. But the normal people that are subject to the propaganda? I don't understand the benefit in doing this. I also don't see how the sanctions effect an open source project..
Seems a bit weird. Maybe there's information we're not privy to, but on the face of it, just based on what we're seeing. Seems like a very very odd move.
FSB wants backdoor in kernel. FSB notices subsystem maintainer is Russian, lives in Chelyabinsk. Can close eyes to backdoor, can pretend to review. FSB in Moscow make call to FSB in Chelyabinsk telling to buy heavy wrench at hardware store.
Same could be said for any intelligence service . it is better to focus on preventing and detecting these things through analysis and code reviews.
And they could just offer boatloads of cash to someone in another country to insert something so this doesn’t really prevent anything it only isolates a certain subset of people.
So if we can’t completely 100% deal with a problem, we shouldn’t even try? I mean, you’re correct, but we can’t solve all problems at once. If we deal with at least one, then we’ve made progress. Then we can try to deal with the next one.
No but this doesn’t do anything to “deal” with the problem as anyone can built up trust like Jian tan showed. The argument that this makes us more secure is like saying closed source is more secure cause the hackers dont have access to the source.
We have evidence of the US messing with nist standards so by that same logic should we assume all us actors are bad ?
The solution is to verify the code maybe have multiple people from different locations have to review stuff. Build more checks into the process.
The whole point of it being open is that it can be reviewed. It shouldn’t matter where the contributor is from as all code should be subjected to a rigorous review process.
What… You realize that NIST is literally a government agency? It’s part of the United States Department of Commerce. It’s literally the US government. Are you saying that the government is messing with itself? What does that even mean?
What’s so strange about that? It’s not like the government - any government - is just one person. Of course some people in government can mess with other people in government. Even people in the same office mess with each other. Intra-office politics, and so on.
If that were true, surely they'd not trust ANY of their existing work, or at least any done since the Special War Operation. Wouldn't that make sense?
They've left the code, and removed the people arbitrarily. Seems a bit off to me.
I don’t think this only happens now, governments like Russia, USA, China, Israel will likely always be making these attempts.
Security. Torvalds did this for security.
Is it really that hard to parse?
And I'll say the same here as I did above. If it was for security, their code is tainted too. It's an arbitrary reaction that is not complete as a solution to anything.
They can check existing code. You have to be able to trust people who are contributing.
They can check new code by these risky people as it comes in, but it why risk it?
You can’t untaint code if the tainters (lol that sounds funny) can still edit the code.
If Torvalds is correct (he is), patching can now take place for vulnerabilities.
Good point!
Well it seems it was more to do with sanctions, if the open letter from one of the chopped developers is to be believed. In which case, I think the right thing is to move the names to contributors (they did still contribute), remove them from maintainers (some maintainers are actually paid by the foundation, I mean not a lot, but some are paid).
I still find it all a little odd. But likely there was a bit of a prod from somewhere higher as to how sanctions should be followed.
I am on your side and don’t understand the fury of down votes in this section regarding this stance. I am from a shit hole of a country too and if my life long contribution to open science (hypothetically speaking) could be so completely disregarded because of something ultra shitty that my country did, I would be super sad and probably mad at the OS community for leaving me behind so quickly.
I also don’t understand the benefit of doing this. Most people seem to claim it’s for security reasons but that does not make sense to me. Closing doors to someone without any proof of malintent is so against open source philosophy that it is perhaps more damaging in its core. And being the kind of government Russia is (or for that matter Israel, China, USA etc etc) they will always try to gain cyber war advantage by such methods. This approach is therefore clearly unsustainable. You would only be able to give dev access to a handful of countries in the world.
It sure as hell won’t scratch a dent in the Russian government’s armor when all these sanctions did not. It is not going to achieve 1/1000th of what all those ambargoes, frozen accounts etc aimed and failed to achieve.
Therefore there is either missing information (external pressure to take this action) or this is simply an action based on personal judgement.
Looking at the other post about NVidia drivers, I am starting to wonder if western governments (or perhaps just the US) are going after large orgs and suggesting how current sanctions should be interpreted. In which case, not sure I can then blame the Linux foundation, since you know, you don't need government heavy breathing down your neck.
Don’t know the whole story but :
If you banned them because they are promoting the Russia, it’s okay. But it’s not if you banned them ONLY because they’re Russians. But maybe you could like said to them to do like in the sports, and operate as a “no-country” people, but surely not ban them for their nationality
Linus is from Finland. Finns barely tolerate Russians under usual circumstances. These are not usual circumstances.
True he could have banned them long ago, it’s his project in the end, but he didn’t, he only did it after the sanctions
It is genuine xenophobia. I like in Poland, and its like you’re either a homophobe, or a xenophobe- with pretty limited inbetween. (And there are plenty of people who are both)
And Russians are peaceophobes? 😆
Ah, yes. Russia. A paragon of moral societal standards and behavior.
If he did that that would have been genuine discrimination. If he has to do it now because of sanctions, then ok fine. But otherwise I don’t want to see an open source project treating people differently based on where they were born.
Come on lemmy, how is this pro-racism comment upvoted so many times? Please, think.
Holy shit, gtfo. Maybe don’t be an actual cunt if you don’t want people to “discriminate” against you? The guy didn’t even fire all Russians, only those tied to sanctioned companies. He did less than should’ve been done. But that’s only because what should be done to Russia at this point is assassinating their leader, disarming the country, executing the army, installing a puppet government that ensures economic and military inferiority, and selling tickets to piss on Putins grave for the rest of the world to blow off some steam.
Edit: here’s a view from a Russian, maybe that helps:
social.kernel.org/notice/AnIv3IogdUsebImO6i
I feel the same way about Americans.
We’ll let you know as soon as we find a reason to respect your malformed opinion.
Look as long as your a NATO nation, we’re a perfectly peaceful and reasonable super power with a military that would scorch the earth to ash within 24 hours.
“Russian” is not a race.
Linus’s dad was a Finnish communist and lived in USSR for some time, one can say a VIP person. You actually lack the context to realize how important this is. Many people of such connections (not accusing Linus, no) are usually still connected to Russia’s regime more than, ahem, me. The documents about just whom that encompasses are still secret in Russian archives. Well, technically one can get a permission, but random people are refused it.
Yes, we know that, massacring Russian civilian population during 1917-1918 and then doing that David-n-Goliath thing in the Winter War, which is the only thing they want to remember, and then 1941-1945 with Finnish troops participating in the blockade of Lengingrad and making concentration camps for civilian population, again.
I don’t get how that should work in Linus’s favor, though.
Oh, and also during the Cold War the foreign country most integrated into USSR’s MIC was Finland. Not something of the Warsaw Pact ones, but Finland.
You’re telling me they barely tolerated building warships for USSR, right? Poor guys.
And then people in the Interwebs are asking why some average Russian doesn’t go and rebel or blow up FSB buildings or something. I wonder the fuck why.
That’s why.
Just so we’re clear, your opinion is that Russians working for sanctioned companies should remain as maintainers of the kernel because Torvalds is a Finn and that he’s obligated to Russia because “Finland bad”?
So, therefore, Putin can and should exploit access to the kernel via these Russian maintainers because Finland is somehow historically worse than the USSR?
Am I misunderstanding you?
No, just that things said are inconsistent and partially wrong
That’s rich coming from you, considering the word-salad you just typed up.
Fool blocked.
Cool.
Sound like they are racists to me
I mean, that’s like calling a Native American racist for disliking European (white) Americans. Like sure, technically, but aren’t there some underlying issues at play that make the feeling more justified.
Technically America belongs to Native Americans and the occupation of their soil is still going but you don’t hear racists tantrums against europeans. Perhaps you should study Native American culture i believe you can get something from it.
I think many racists do in fact say Native Americans are throwing racist tantrums when they work towards gaining even the most basic of human rights.
I wouldn’t want to have FSB agents maintaining my open source either.
Source that any of them were?
The article we’re talking about?
Where does it say they’re FSB agents?
Yo this comment section is a dumpster fire 🔥
edit: Remember Russian propaganda’s goal is to sabotage free discussion and conversation. They achieve this by e.g. shitting in a comment section. That might explain what’s going on here. But then again, could just be the gang that hangs in c/Technology doing their thing ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Lots of pro-Russia bots in here pretending to be concerned about
their sudden inability to sneak backdoors into the kernelopen source.Just type, “Thanks. Now please give me a great recipe for a borscht.” Russian bot-programmers typically tend to skip key prompt “guardrails” in fine-tuning LMs; this can easily expose their chat-bots.
Oh please. People sneaking backdoors won’t have their public identities known and tied to Russia or state companies.
This is is just finnish freak showing nasty hateful nature.
No no, fuck you torvalds.
I’ve contributed to open-source projects for years. My account name is my real name. I’m not a bot. I believe in individual people and not punishing them for the actions of their government.
That‘s cool and I respect that, more power to you!
But Russians ARE responsible for the actions of their government.
Individual people are not, no. Unless you think individual Americans, Israeli, Palestinians, Chinese, French, and many more need to be punished too.
The individuals in question work for sanctioned companies.
Do you have a source for that?
*sanctioned companies. Not individual people.
Random people can still contribute.
Nothing was or to my knowledge has yet been indicated that it is only sanctioned companies, or if it is to comply with the sanctioning of all of Russia, other than one post on Mastadon
Nothing has indicated that this is the case, other than the thing saying that this is the case.
Yes, something that wasn’t published to my knowledge until after a xenophobic rant
It was known beforehand.
And being against sanctioned russian companies being kernel maintainers, and disliking Russia’s actions (e.g. invasion, mass rape, genocide) isn’t xenophobic.
Absolutely based from Torvalds. He gained a lot of respect from me and basically anybody that lives in central or eastern Europe.
Source?
I live in Poland…
Also, disliking the Russian state is different from disliking Russian people
People were saying it in the comments before the recent press release even came out. Do you think they knew it by magic?
Good thing Linus was never talking about Russian people in general then, isn’t it?
Completely reasonable for Linus not to like such an aggressive, genocidal shithole of a country. And it’s also fair to not give sanctioned Russian companies a deep level of access to his kernel.
And btw, for being Polish it seems weird that you constantly post in US politics communities and never in any polish ones.
They saw people were banned to comply with the law and it was a list of just Russians. Huawei is a sanctioned company and none of their employees were banned.
But he was talking about the specific people implying that they were supporting the Russian aggression, which to my knowledge they weren’t. The removal also said it can be reversed with “sufficient documentation” without any clarification on what that is. There were and are many opportunities to say “these people were removed because they worked for sanctioned companies” but that was not said.
To my knowledge there are no Polish communities on here. I do comment and post on r/Poland on Reddit.
Nobody got banned. They were removed from their positions as maintainers, because they work for a sanctioned company.
Please stop being purposely misleading.
They can still contribute to their heart’s content. They just can’t submit patches with no oversight, because they are close to the Russian government, who, I don’t know if you’ve realised, has invaded their neighbour and is currently committing genocide.
Yep I knew that, no clue why I wrote that, sometimes I should probably proofread.
But again, employees of non-Russian sanctioned companies were not removed.
I am not, it was genuine slip of the finger? Idk, but if you check my profile there are plenty of examples where I omitted or said the wrong word, I really should proof read more rather- though that would ruin the fun. Stop assuming malice when someone has a different opinion from you and makes a mistake.
There is still oversight, plenty of people read every merged commit.
I’ve never seen anything to support this.
Invaded yes, genocide I have no clue what really is happening in Ukraine, but I would say it doesn’t look like a genocide. War is bad, killing is bad, but genocide is a specific thing, and this feels a lot like just adding a word to make it sound more bad. The invasion is bad enough.
You’re getting little in the way of benefit of the doubt because you’re repeatedly trying to make Russia look good and misleading about this.
It’s also somewhat hard to take you seriously when in another comment you equated drinking alcohol with child rape.
11 maintainers from sanctioned Russian companies were removed from their position where they could submit patches without any approval required.
Even if there weren’t sanctions, it would be good to make that move. Russia could easily utilise these people to introduce insecurities. We do not need another xz utils disaster.
Yes, Russia is committing genocide as the UN defines it. Stop trying to minimise what they’re doing. Genocide. Russia is committing genocide in Ukraine.
Genocide: “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”
Putin has been leveling entire cities. He said Ukraine isn’t a real country with a real culture. He has been abducting children and bringing them into Russia so they grow up as Russians. He has been altering signs, maps, etc to erase Ukrainian names.
That is genocide.
Never did either of those things.
Why are you lying? I did not equate them, and you know that. I analogized. If I say a sad movie “hit me like a truck” does that mean I’m equating it, or even saying its close? No, its an analogy.
My understanding is this is not true. My understanding is they are pushed to
linux-nextwhere people test and review them, and are eventually merged into the main branch after Linus reviews them, though I agree those patches are probably not reviewed as thoroughly, but there is still an approval process. My understanding is no one other than Linus can push directly tomain.Linux is not xz, each change has weeks before introduction and is much more looked at. Furthermore, the core thing, Jia Tan wasn’t a real person- these maintainers are real people. If you’re going to do a backdoor there still could be pseudonymous maintainers and contributors, those that show their face are more trust worthy. They’re at least risking losing their real names reputation.
I’m not, stop insulting me. Nothing I said minimized it in any way.
I think this definition is not specific enough. I would not consider ‘cultural genocide’ genocide. Genocide is the systematic slaughter of nearly everyone of a specific group with the intent to kill nearly everyone in that group. It is not the banning of a religion to destroy that religion or as China and some other countries have tried to do- encouraging or forcing reproduction with a certain ethnic group to ‘dilute the blood’. It is also not banning or repressing a language. That doesn’t mean those things aren’t ‘cultural genocide’, just that ‘cultural genocide’ and genocide are different things. To be honest, I’m not sure how to classify forced sterilization.
This itself doesn’t mean its a genocide, war crime and massacre yes of course.
Yes to the first, the second though do you have a source for? (Though I would support that if he applied the same to Russian ‘culture’ but I don’t think he does sadly)
Systemic cultural repression is bad, taking orphaned kids from their close family is bad. Adopting orphaned children itself is not itself bad, just like an American adopting a baby born in China isn’t cultural repression for them to be assimilated into American ‘culture’. I don’t know how much of it is former, and how much is the latter, but it seems like it leans towards the former rather than the latter- but there are also cases where its the latter.
Okay?
The reason I am hesitant to agree with the claim of genocide is that there are still plenty of ethnic Ukrainians living in Russian occupied territories, and they are being oppressed(even more so than others in Russian territory) but they still exist. One example, my grandma was born in Nazi occupied Czech Republic, called then on her birth certificate the “Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia”. Czechoslovak resistance assassinated the Nazi governor of the protectorate, an in revenge that Nazis killed all the adults in the town of Ležáky and in Lidice all the men and many women and children were slaughtered. This was a horrific atrocity, but I do not believe it was a genocide of Czechs because for the most(though still many, many were slaughtered) part ethnic Czechs were able to live, oppressed, but still allowed to live. It would be fair to say it was a genocide of the people of Ležáky but I don’t think that counts as a “national, ethnical, racial or religious group”
Yes you did.
Yes you did.
Your understanding could be that 2+2=5, but that does not make it so.
That is impossible to do for the thousands of patches that get applied. Which is why maintainers have to be trusted. Ones working for sanctioned Russian companies cannot be.
Do you think Russia cares about that? They’re happily conscripting young men into war. If they tell a maintainer to introduce a vulnerability otherwise their family will be killed, do you really think they’ll say “No. My name will then be tarnished in the Linux circle! I’d rather let myself and my family die than let that happen!”
How convenient 🇷🇺. Regardless, that is the definition.
I didn’t say it alone did. I said it as part of a bunch of other things.
Go look it up yourself, sealion. It won’t take you long.
Regardless, it’s another point in the genocide column.
Of fuck off you genocide denialist.
Forcible mass abduction of children with the specific intent of destroying Ukrainian culture is not the same as a family adopting a child who happened to have been born in another country.
What the fuck is that equivalence? This is like your “child rape and drinking alcohol are both bad, but I don’t think the state should have the right to ban them” bullshit all over again.
How could you be defending something like that. Christ. Nazis did this.
I see the blatant attempt at destroying all Ukrainian culture (i.e. committing genocide) means nothing to you.
Quote it then, stop with the gaslighting, give the quote.
I think that that is not an effective long term tactic. XZ relied on kilobytes of binary files to be blindly called, that sort of thing doesn’t happen in the Linux kernel. Its also not a good idea to use a real Russians working for real defense contractors if you don’t want to raise suspicion.
What?
That is a definition.
I have that’s why I asked, I’ve seem him say that Russians and Ukrainians are one people, but not that there is no such thing as Ukrainian culture. Another question though, why are you even still responding if you’re just going to insult me? No one is going to read this far into an old thread to see you “humiliate me” and you’re not going to change my mind through insults. Is is just a convenient punching bag?
And I responded to those other things. You seem to be ignoring half of what I say.
I’m not, and I’m not even say what’s happening in Ukraine definitely isn’t a genocide. Just with the information I have it doesn’t look like it. I was hoping you might have more information on the topic, and you somewhat did, I didn’t know about the child abduction thing.
I agree, that’s why I said what I said. You know the next sentence where I specifically said they’re not the same thing.
Where did I say child rape shouldn’t be banned? You should work for TMZ or something, because it seems like you’re great at picking out tiny snippets of sentences and ignoring the full context. I never once equated child rape and drinking alchohol. Or that child abduction is the same as adoption- seeing as I literally said that child abduction and adoption are the same thing, and this seems like its mostly child abduction.
Signs are not valuable, if the Nazis invaded Poland then decided they were just going to change the signs then I don’t think they would be quite as remembered. The Nazis I’m certain did change the signs- but that is pretty insignificant thing to care about to be honest. The child abduction is far more important to focus on than signs.w
It’s just an endless circle of you defending Russian genocide and defending child rape with you, isn’t it?
Sanctioned companies are gone from the maintainers list. Good riddance. Thankfully Linus isn’t a pro-russian loser.
RMS is an advocate of child rape. Thankfully nobody takes him seriously anymore.
Genocide is bad. Child rape is bad. I can’t believe this even needs to be explained to some people.
I did neither of those things. You are openly ignoring what I said.
RMS did not do that.
I agree.
I’m sorry to say though I am reporting you for trolling because you repeatedly accusing me of saying stuff I never said, refuse to acknowledge anything I say- then continue to lie about me without providing any evidence for your lies.
Report away. Anybody reading this will agree it’s utterly insane to talk about drinking a glass of wine and fucking a toddler as of they are the same thing.
Quote where I said they’re the same thing.
In your comment where you equated them, then every single comment after.
Quote it then
Go read your own comments. You equated them.
Having a beer is not the same as raping a 4 year old.
If I equated them it should easy to quote where I did, that’s the last I’ll say on the matter until you quote it.
I told you when you did.
No you didn’t because I didn’t, quote it
It’s been in all of your comments where you brought it up. You know you said it.
I didn’t and you know I didn’t that’s why you’re not quoting it
You equated them multiple times. You know you did.
Stop defending raping children you nonce.
I didn’t, quote where I did, you’re trolling for no reason to just not admit to being wrong
You’ve done it every comment where you compared them, as if they’re equal.
You’re either a troll or someone I would not be comfortable having my kids around.
I analogized, but I’m glad you finally admit I didn’t equate them. Because, shockingly, comparing is not equating. Literally any 2 things can be compared, that isn’t equating.
You did equate them.
I hope you are never around children.
You just said I compared not equated…
You can compare equatable things…
Now I know you’re trolling. But that’s better than someone who genuinely does think child rape is fine, so that’s good.
But they aren’t equivalent. You’re now saying they’re equivalent.
I’m not.
I agree, good thing I don’t think that.
I know they aren’t equivelant. Yet you treat them like they are.
Yikes.
Thank fuck you don’t have kids.
Linus in 2012: Nvidia fuck you
Linus in 2024: Russia fuck you
He’s not wrong…
He almost never is.
However, it makes me sad that FOSS is being pulled in to these sanctions.
It’s one thing to be uncooperative with Linux development.
A very different thing is to introduce vulnerabilities into existing working code.
Unrelated but nice profile picture!
No, fuck you Torvalds.
You have to be arguing in bad faith if you’re trying to say “citizens of nation shouldn’t be responsible for their nation”
The open source benefit is not that they can directly impact it, it’s that their government can’t
thank you Lemmy user ILikeBoobies for your valuable contribution
edit: I wasn’t saying their option was wrong? I was just appreciating their name
Oh no. A Lemmy user likes breasts. That surely invalidates anything they say 🙄
Thats not what I was saying. I didn’t even read their message, I was just pointing out the funny name
Fair enough, apologies.
I’ve seen a lot of people try to dismiss comments just by bringing up that someone has a silly username
If it was framed as a measure against possible government coordinated infiltration, sure. But that’s not the case.
I say that in good faith
Then take action against specific people if you see that happening.
Save your sanity and do Settings -> Blocks -> Block instance -> lemmy.ml
Also perhaps block me if you strongly disagree with the above.
That instance’s mods blocked me this morning lol.
The amount of people simping for Russia in that other thread is insane. Apparently calling Ukraine a country of Nazis is fine, but saying Russia is a dictatorship is not lmao.
If you see a tankie or pro Russia comment, 99% of the time it’s a lemmy.ml poster
Can we see where someone is hosting a Lemmy (domain, insnace, thing?)
Sometimes it is posted on the instance front page or about page.
I guess, you got to check IP and see what country it belongs to, but if they use a VPS or VPN or both, you can’t really know where the person who manages the instance lives / operates.
Well I doubt it’s Mali.
check-host.net/ip-info?host=lemmy.ml
France. Maybe. It’s mostly guesswork, but gives the same location for hexbear.net.
It’s mostly cosplay commies rather than actual Russians.
Yea I figured it’s just a bunch of middle class kids who have the privilege of being online and complain. Also fuck Hexbear…all my homies hate Hexbear.
Hexgears and of course lemmygrad.ml are of the same kind
😄exactly! Phu, the brain gymnastics that those people are capable of is mind bending 🤣
Yeah, but most instances already defederated from them.
.
This topic has nothing to do with being “pro-Russian” instead its being pro-individualist and pro-open source
I’m pro open source, which is why I don’t want the Russian government interfering with it for their own geopolitical bullshit.
I agree, but people aren’t their government. Discriminating based on nationality is xenophobia.
Did you miss the fact that it’s not a blanket ban on Russians? If you work for a sanctioned company, then I’m sorry but you are out. Missed the chance to jump ship in the last twenty years of Putin turning Russia into a dictatorship? Well, I hope you like being sent to your death. Sad times, but let’s not pretend that this is discrimination.
From what I saw in the executive order it wasn’t limited to just sanctioned companies. Linus and other maintainers haven’t come out with which specific sanction they’re talking about so its just speculation
Banning contributions from sanctioned russian companies is not xenophobia. Pipe down.
.
I heard Russia is full of Nazis, and if that level of hearsay is fine for staging a multi year invasion and destroying a thousand years of history it’s just FINE for segregating bad-actors and persona non grata.
Can’t deal with it? Move to a less shitty company not sanctioned by scumbags. Or even a less tribal country 🤷
Linux maintainers aren’t invading Ukraine
Can we really be sure?
I mean, I’d love to see if there’s any evidence to the contrary xd
yep I got banned from there for simply stating that ukraine has a right to defend themselves after Modi called for “peace”. Apparently absolute pacifism is only required from one side.
Some of us are actually normal
I see you, hang in there buddy!
Doesn’t help if the admins think you’re not. Which is why I had to relocate a community because of admin content meddling and instance users shitstorming in a waterglass.
I love it here as well 😁
Ee is cool, but your upload limits were crap.
Fair, but most of the time, photos that I post won’t get any better with more pixels anyway 😂
I throw a lot of low effort memes, so I need all the help I can get.
Yeah, when I created my Lemmy account I had to choose an instance before knowing anything about Lemmy yet. And .ml seemed like the default one to choose, given join-lemmy.org told me it is ran by the devs.
Oh well.
Similar story here tbh.
improved my lemmy experience ten fold just blocking that instance.
Yesterday I accidentally commented in .ml and mentioned that voting third party in our current voting system is playing with fire to get a worse candidate in office. I was told I must therefore start a grassroots movement for ranked choice voting, because apparently I can’t have an opinion without a movement.
Normally I let a few downvotes get under my skin more than I care to admit, but in this setting it was kind of a badge of honor. Honestly it was kind of “fun” to see what people were saying.
I approve this comment.
Please stip blocking people, please stip talking about blocking everyone
Yes, i gettit. Different opinions can be annoying but if we don’t all participate in. A similar environment.we all just disappear in our little echo chamber pillars, unable to hear or understand the others, which leads to more extremist opinions on all sides.
We NEED to hear others, if not just for the fact that others may NEED to hear our voices too.
I honestly this echo chamber crap is squarely caused by the Internet, the tool that promised to bring humanity together, and instead ended up dividing us more than ever because anyone hearing an opinion they don’t like immediately bans that voice. Can’t have anyone disagreeing now!
I get it, there are some stupid opinions out there, dangerous ones too, but the more we ban them, the more they will only be able to talk eachother into extremism and the WILL be back, with more people, and more extremist opinions.
FFS, we need to learn to start listening to each other again. An entire generation has grown up with “if you don’t like to hear that opinion, just have it banned”, and it’s not helpful.
Early Internet was a wild west crazy town for sure, loads of assholes lurking around, but it was better than what we have now, where EVERY space is curated and hawkishly guarded against those that might even look in the wrong direction.
I’ve spent quite some time on right wing subs back in the day in Reddit, discussing whatever topic with hard line conservative right wing types and when you do you find out they are human too, usually with a lot of fears, and you actually get to understand why they feel the way they feel, and you can get them to understand that yeah, maybe it’s not the best solution. You find common ground and got somebody a little closer to the light. Yes, I’m a big fan of that black guy (forgot his name) who goes out to talk to KKK members to convert them away from the KKK.
I know this isn’t for everyone, but a lot of us can and should step up and start talking, start listening. I’m not saying st all you should agree with a neo nazi, but you can listen to him or her, understand where they’re coming from, and have them do the same. Once you both see the humanity in each other you can actually make everyone be a little better.
It’s better than the alternative where the inevitable outcome is that we’ll start having civil wars everywhere and just kill those we oppose.
I’m surprised to find somebody with some sense around here.
I have never used a block or mute feature on any site or any service in all my life. It is wild to me that people today actually use those features, let alone to constrict the ideas that they allow themselves to be exposed to.
I conducted a fun little experiment over at /c/asklemmy@lemmy.world in which I posited the question: “If it were possible, how would you deprogram an extreme conservative?”. I then waited twenty hours before posting “If it were possible, how would you deprogram an extreme progressive?”. The difference in reception between the questions exposed the intense lib-left bias that is pervasive on Lemmy, a byproduct of people constantly walling themselves into self-made echochambers.
No, actually…
… but seriously, the Internet is so different from real life that no comparisons make sense. Opinions that would have been uttered by the craziest village idiots in a local gas station 30 years ago are now distributed and magnified by the social media machine. In the past, you could see with your eyes, hear with your ears and even smell with your nose which people you really really should not listen to, but in the internet, those people look exactly like you and me.
And it’s all sapping your energy and time, the most precious resources you have.
That’s why blocking is fine, even whole instances if they are shown to be crazy enough.
Also, I would like to point out that the creators of the clients for the first community platforms (usenet) recognized early on the importance of shutting people up (killfiles).
I understand what you mean but I’ll have to disagree. Letting people just do anything like that is like not charging criminals for the crimes they’ve commited. It could make people act similarly.
We have tried engaging in good faith, but they don’t WANT to hear us. For example, the mods of !worldnews@lemmy.ml (specifically lemmy.ml/u/OurToothbrush) ban for people for simply disagreeing with them. Happened to me and I’ve seen multiple others.
Seriously, the hexbears just moved one over to keep getting exposure.
This is about open-source being open. I’m a very non-tankie, and I think this is bad- though a bit better if its only people working for sanctioned companies.
Go look at the principles of open-source or free software as defined either by the OSI and the FSF and then come back when you find the one that says that Linus needs to violate US sanctions to keep employees of Russian companies in trusted roles within his project.
Also, what does this have to do with being tankie or not? Modern Russia is very openly not communist.
.ml is full of tankies. Also, nothing in open-source principles say that to my knowledge. Am I not allowed to have beliefs not explicitly defined by the OSI?
The OSI’s definition of open-source software is the de facto definition used by most people, and for most of the remaining people that don’t, they (mistakenly, because they define “free” software, not “open-source”) defer to the FSF’s defintion of free software.
So yes, you should be explicitly noting that what you define as “open” has nothing at all to do with the far-and-away most widely used definition(s) of “open-source”.
Yes, and I said I want open-source to be open. As in not just open-source, but also open to all. That is my personal moral value, and I advocate for that. What the OSI supports has nothing to do with that.
I want a lot of things too, but what I want most of all is to live in a society governed by the rule of law. There are no absolute rights - limiting the freedoms of people who are complicit in crimes or enable them is how we protect the rights of everyone else. Simple as.
Limiting the freedoms of innocent people who happen to live in a country doesn’t protect the rights of others.
The limitations didn’t target a nationality, they targetted sanctioned entities. And you know this because it has been made clear throughout this thread, including in numerous replies to your own comments. So you are demonstrably and obviously disingenious, not engaging in good faith or have yourself been misled. This behavior logically leads people to the conclusion that you are either being deliberately manipulative or you are confused and have been deliberately manipulated. Sadly, the end result is the same in both cases and regardless of your intention.
I wish you the best. We should all be a lot more dedicated to intellectual honesty.
As I said, everyone is basing this on one post on Mastadon, I have no clue where that person got that information, if he is trustworthy, if he speaks for the LF/Kernel team, or what.
.
I hope people do not do that and take into account this campaign against lemmy.ml. I am aware of the accusations against the admins of this instance, but I practically never see here this kind of brigading, campaigning against whole instances like lemmy.world. Sure, I myself did make a bad comment or two about lemmy.world out of >800 comments, but that’s normal. I think the fair thing to do, is to respond in the same scale (i. e. blocking specific users) instead of going all ballistic with instance blocks.
I’d also like an option to just block/hide the instance part of user names. I don’t like what this bit of information is doing to discussions in Lemmy.
You could also just move instances if you don’t want to be blocked. Hexbear, and ML are hot spots for the worst kind of people.
I know I can. Being blocked is something I do not have any issues with. My comment was merely my point of view. If someone is being actively bothered by the admins of the instance I’m in, it’s completely fair to block it. However, to block whole instances for ideological differences is kind of immature.
Cool. That’s fine that you don’t like it. However people have a right to not see what they don’t want to see. If they decide that means it’s lemmy.ml, then that’s their right.
Just like I have a right to not peer with lemmy.ml if I didn’t want to.
Hell I have a hard block on ALL Russian and Chinese IP addresses. Not because I have something against the people. But I just don’t want to deal with the headache of accepting traffic from those countries.
Just because some (or even a majority) of the people on lemmy.ml are fine to interact with doesn’t mean that there isn’t contention from other users and admins on that instance.
I think we agree on everything. You do you.
it’s not just random users, the mods of larger communities like !worldnews@lemmy.ml will delete your comments and ban you simply for disagreeing with them.
For this, some people proposed to move the community from one instance to another. Now, it seems to me like the incentive to comment on instances ideologically biased for people who cares about the voting system is basically to troll the opposing instance. Which leads to this petty battle that I will ignore from now on.
EDIT: It’s also interesting to note that lemmy.ml is not like any other instance. In fact, it would be beneficial to not have big communities here. My account is here because it’s an old account, but lemmy.ml should be more like a “testing” instance, and they probably shouldn’t be signing up more people. The admins and devs acknowledge this from time to time. So, I guess everyone wins with this.
I would encourage that, but if your instance doesn’t defederate them you may have to go a bit farther since you’ll still get replies from lemmy.ml users, as users are not blocked as part of this functionality. And that is by design, it’s not meant to act as a replacement or alternative to defederation, it’s meant to act as an alternative to blocking all communities on an instance.
“Those who don’t learn history are doomed to repeat it”. Back when Pearl Harbor happened, people started to see japanese citizens as enemies. Not solely the Japanese government to that time, but even the humble japanese, even if those had despises against their government. Almost a century after, humanity is making the exact same thing, this time involving Russians and Ukrainians, as well as Israeli and Palestinians (exactly, “both sides”). Like how it happened back in Pearl Harbor, the prejudice extended all the way to STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Medical), the subject of this community and thread.
I was born a Brazilian, without my consent. Also, without my consent, there is this thing called “Brazilian politics”. I hate both the current and the former governments. I have no money nor conditions to simply leave the country but even if I did, I’d stay born as a Brazilian. Everyone who meets a Brazilian readily asks things such as “how’s carnival, how’s samba, how’s football, how’s Neymar”. Being a Brazilian necessarily mean that I have to like those things? Being a Brazilian necessarily mean that I consented to the current politics within this country? If Lula is sided with Putin, does it necessarily mean that me, a Brazilian citizen unknown to Lula or the entire government (I’m just one among 220 million people), endorse him as well? Should I blame myself for my entire life for being born Brazilian? Should a Russian do the same? An Ukrainian? An Israeli? An Palestinian?
Is the existence of sanctions a slippery slope to Japanese internment camps?
Indirectly common people are being seized from their humanity. I guess the disliking people know how immigration is not something freely accessible, lots of people around the world just don’t have the necessary conditions to leave the country where they were born against their own consent, be it Russia or whatever other country.
The point of sanctions is to make it harder to run a country, part of that is making the citizens angry with the government
They don’t target Russians outside of Russia, and do target non-Russians in Russia, because they’re meant to actually be somewhat effective rather than just inciting hate
I’m sure lots of Russians were already angry with their government way before the sanctions, so what now? Ideally, people could do massive protests, Putin would be scared as heck so he renounces, people invoke the good old democracy again, they vote, a new leader takes place, Ukraine-Russia war would cease, both Russians and Ukrainians would happily fly together mounted in winged unicorns… Except everyone knows it doesn’t work that way!! Governments (not just Putin’s) have multiple ways to fight any protests going inside their country, governments can tear gas citizens, governments can end lives from their own citizens, governments can end a protest before it even happens through censorship and massive electrical/internet blackouts. Even when citizens has guns, governments have stronger guns. Lots of recent examples are there to demonstrate how this happens.
People from a sanctioned people can and will starve and die, because their governments and their bureaucrats and forces (police and army) can have their own sustenance, so it doesn’t really matter for them if their own citizens starve to death. Russia, China, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, they won’t change simply because population became angry: I guess everyone in the west remember the Tiananmen Square, did it change China’s government? I guess no.
So instead of sanctioning and indirectly punishing the people, one option would be that organizations (maybe Red Cross, UN, I dunno) could intervene silently and peacefully inside a country, helping people to flee their country to a safer place, effectively reducing that country army’s recruitment potential and weakening its military power (did anybody from NATO, WEF, UN, or whatever organizations, even thought about this, helping Russians flee away from Russia in order to weaken Russia’s military?).
It’s worth remembering that military recruitment is often a mandatory thing, and the only way common people can run away from it is running away from the country, something that won’t happen if they have no money to start emigration processes (it costs money, you know, it’s not a free thing, even seeking political asylum needs money). Cutting money will only cut lives unrelated to the leaders that are carrying wars (and I’m sure Putin won’t cry because Ms. Mary Marylovski died from starvation because US and Europe indirectly cut her income, because Ms. Mary Marylovski is another unknown citizen to Putin or other higher level government bureaucrats).
I digressed from technology here, but those are my thoughts on the matter.
Good
I’m surprised how many people treat GPL to ignore borders. The IP law still operates only by the rules your country decides.
I can understand the desire for information to be free, but unless Open source movement becomes it’s own country the discussion should end there.
Did they get paid?
Edit: Very likely they were paid, and that’s where IP addresses end and sanctions begin.
medium.com/…/economics-in-foss-is-paying-for-free…
Explain volunteers then.
Where did you get volunteers from?
It’s about people on the maintainers list, and those are paid.
That it’s open software doesn’t mean people are working for free.
You made a declarative statement that nobody would work full time for free.
So explain volunteers.
Where did I make that statement?
Do you mean the article that I posted?
Nobody says to ignore the law… it is Linus comments that were bad. Instead of defending the people that was working for him all these years and he had trust on them, he decided to throw them under the bus because he is from Finland. Well, Finland prospered the most on its life under neutrality.
Well I guess if he trusts them, he will welcome in open arms once the sanctions are lifted. Or if they get a non russian state domain to operate from.
With those incendiary comments he did on the people that worked for him for years… I doubt they will be back. If he did not trust them, he would have gotten rid of them years ago. He waited to the deadline to kick them out… good, so he trusted them till now… but then, he despise them from being Russian. I simply don’t get it… I don’t know… maybe Linus is just an ass or he was forced to say that… I think probably the first.
Ideally the internet would be extra-sovereign
hear hear!
So the Rest of the world should trust CIA, NSA contributions but not Russia’s FSB ? come on , opensource should be tolerant towards all espionage agencies no matter their skin color.
Russians are majority white but ok
don’t be pedantic, what about the Chinese, south-Africans, north-Koreans, Cubans, …etc
Don’t get me wrong, I dont think it’s right to forbid people from collaborating in an open environment just because of what their government does, and frankly the arguments that the normal people should be punished because of their government are stupid, but it’s just, not racism.
I wasn’t referring to racism. Race and Nationality are almost the same thing, people can’t chose in what community they were born in. and not everyone has the means to move.
No, they don’t.
This is the difference between political systems where one is really really bad but at least doesn’t regularly assassinate opponents in the most horrific ways, and allow people to speak their minds.
I don’t trust the US any further than I can throw it, but no matter how you look at it, it’s the lesser evil.
Hell, look at sports. If a Russian athlete wins you can pretty much disqualify them for doping without having tested them because they all do it and I feel sorry for them, I feel sorry for that situation. There is a reason (beyond this war) why Russian athletes weren’t allowed to compete at certain events, and it’s the insane amount of doping used by them. I’m sure these athletes don’t want to do this crap, but a state basically forces them to.
I can see the worry about similar issues with developers.
Replying because I need to think about how I’m going to vote for this comment and plan to come back later.
Russia is very, very white. Overwhelmingly so.
This has nothing to do with skin colour.
I think given the current political situation this is the right call. No one knows what the Russian government might compel otherwise innocent devs to do.
That said, we (and I mean society, not any particular individual) should be mindful that we don’t slip into bigotry.
Linux Fundarion is based in America. It needs to follow its rules and politics. I guess a lot of things will happen after this. As something so important for open technology like It , should be based in a more open, mor asvanced in laws and neutral territory.
This is hardly the first time the core Linux code stack has been forked and independently developed. Seems like this is going to invite a Russia-specific development environment that just pulls in updates from the main branch and adds in Russia-internal development (which will likely then be copied by non-Russians and backloaded into the core Linux stack under someone else’s name, because why waste good dev work?)
But the argument appears to be anyone with a Russian-sounding name is getting removed from the core development team, until they can prove to the American team that they aren’t… spooks, I guess? Also
So this isn’t such a high security risk that the code is being pulled (presumably because its been vetted and appears beyond repute). This is purely a CYA move to eliminate veterans on the team because they were forthright about their identities.
Its not clear how a policy of booting people based on their surnames accomplishes this.
I could mention all the forks that Linux currently has, please.
Linus is from Finland. Not hard to remember reasons for aversion to Russian propaganda for anyone raised near it.
Blanketing the Linux Foundation as American based kind of sounds like you’re a Russian troll.
Calling out others as a Russian troll sound like a technique to shift scrutiny onto others.
Exactly what a Russian troll would do!
You would think someone from Finland would know better that, when you are so close to a power you don’t like, the best way to prosper is by keeping neutrality,… look at Finland in the 60s-00s, Singapore, Austria… or you choose to pick the Ukrainian, Filipino and Cuban path…
That worked out so well for Ukraine didn’t it.
Get out of here you Russian troll
Lol, nope, that’s a complete bs
Heheheh paranoia fue. And no, just read on internet where is based. California so be precise
Linus lives in Oregon
Isn’t most of Linux open source?
All of it is. But its still possible to sneak backdoors into Foss software (though magnitudes harder). See xz.
If you can sneak backdoors, removing one side, would not make the other side, even if you consider the good one, be even more able to sneak one too. In election tables, what guarantees transparency is everyone represented at the table, not banning one side.
But NSLs force them to do it, and prevent them from talking about it. This is a bigger risk than something like the xz attack, because the barrier of entry is so low
With that logic, the US contributes should be expelled too. We have more examples of US folks being served NSLs than Russians.
Its an American-based venture, owned and operated by American businessmen. They’re not going to burn their own guys, even if some of them are spooks (no evidence that anyone on the core dev team is a spook, but crazy to think the FSB would have people in and the Five-Eyes guys wouldn’t).
I do wonder how long until we start seeing mainstream code-forks that span geopolitical regions. Will we have a Digital Iron Curtain, with BRICS countries doing their own FOSS branches independently of NATO block?
Many European companies canceled contracts with US companies because of the NSL risk. I don’t think the devide is NATO. The US laws are a threat to security and privacy everywhere
I’d be curious to see who they were. My guess is that they are relatively small and easy enough to circumvent without breaking ties with America as a whole.
But I’m not seeing Exxon, Boeing, or Microsoft pull out of Europe, despite being deeply embedded with sanctioned regimes.
Biden literally introduced legislation to prevent it because it was a mass exodus. The companies you mentioned are US companies. I mean EU companies won’t use US MSPs because of the risk
Looking at the downvotes, signals some true on you comment!
All that says is that there’s a lot of people ITT who don’t know what a downvote button is for, and the mods aren’t doing their job
Nah, you just butthurt that your putinsucking goes unappreciated
Lol because russian is so open about who they give nsl to. Or they just poison/defenestrate them
Its the same in the US
I’ve worked side by side with RU devs who were both personable and damned competent. Never were their tech skills in doubt, and I retain quite a bit of respect for those individuals.
I’d not do the same today explicitly because of the political and compliance implications. It’s unfortunate, but necessary.
Again, with open software that is not necessary… If we get to believe that argument, those potential “FSB” coders would be the ones who would notice if the CIA was trying to place a back door in the kernel too. Open Software is OPEN!!
This coming from the brilliant mind who thinks Russia’s neighbors are better off neutral toward it and victim blames countries like Ukraine which have been invaded by it, routinely spreads pro-Russia propaganda on Lemmy and nothing else, and has suspiciously Russian-y broken English.
Edit: Also, as other commenters have correctly pointed out, Russian citizens being allowed to be maintainers of the Linux project has fuck-all to do with the actual principles of open software as defined either by the FSF or the OSI.
Ukraine was invaded after a coup (when elections was 11 months away and polls say would turned pro-western anyways in their typical rotation). Yes Finland, Switzerland and Austria were non NATO are prospered fine, I would say even thrived. Same as Singapore with China. Of course, you can take the Cuba route and bring the nuclear missiles from Moscow, surely US will leave it fine. Side the side you want, keep a strong army but don’t join any military alliance seems to be the recipe for success when you leave close to a power you don’t like.
Finland has to keep one of the largest militaries on Earth solely due to their proximity with Russia, and they barely fended them off in the 1940s. Ukraine was the last straw, and they decided to join NATO. Switzerland??? Are you fucking high? Go look at a fucking map and see where Switzerland is, holy shit. Austria is once again fully enclosed by NATO countries except a small border with Switzerland to the west.
I’m not even addressing the rest of the comment; citing Switzerland alone was too stupid for your worthless, propagandist drivel to be worth my time.
Usually countries have to decide between butter and guns (eco 101). Well, such “largest militaries on Earth” had it both! Like Switzerland, you do have to keep a strong military to dissuade, but aligning to a alliance when you are the spearhead is bad. Switzerland had made an alliance with France or Germany a century ago, would not have ended non invaded, 100% guaranteed.
Shut the fuck up.
intelligent counterargument… and ten upvotes. cool; disappointment a Lemmy community; seem just like another echo chamber as X.
I hope it makes your opinion unwelcome, come back when you grow up as a part of normal member of society.
Because noone actually added a pro-western opinion but rather rebutted your pro-russian tankie bs. And by bs i mean complete nonsense that fails to see a simple comparison of how west does not interfere and expand it’s territory on behalf of it’s neighbors through lies, sabotage and military, but russia does and has for decades. That’s the main reason why it’s neighbours have to spend on military instead of society growth, and now they have realised the tolerance or staying neutral does not work on country that has not grown as a respectful and healthy society member which is proven exactly by your comments.
Pretty sure you won’t be even bothered to read the whole comment and think it’s “huinya”, i know it because i live in a neighbouring country and i know it first hand it sucks to live next to russia.
Your entire comment is a bunch of bullshit and straight up propaganda.
Would they? The XZ utils backdoor was only discovered by what can only be described as an insanely attentive developer who happened to be testing something unrelated and who happened to notice a small increase in the startup time of the library, and was curious enough to go and figure out why.
Open does not mean “can’t be backdoored”.
Can you explain me why Linux waited till the very last moment of the Executive Order 14071’s grace period (the order is from April 2022!) to apply it? Obviously he trusted those people, or the verification system of the open system! Imagine you don’t like a political party for bad… fair enough, so you ban their representatives from voting table… don’t you think, that incentivizes the other party committing fraud? In these open system things, the more eyes the better, I don’t care if commies, libertarians, ultra-right or whatever, the diversity is what keep it in check…
Slow walking compliance is normal. It keeps assets liquid and processes & people in place as long as possible before making changes. It also prevents the cost of changing back and forth if a new rule is struck down before its final date.
What will happen often is that a compliant procedure will be developed as soon as possible, but no changes will be made until absolutely necessary. That gives the organization maximum time to figure out other routes of compliance, fight the rule and continue at pace before they change.
i wish there was more we could do to help russians topple their dictatorship
Necessary for what?
What current situation?
Is so hard to believe Open Source should be open? If there were a malicious intent, others would have been able to detect it in no time… because it is ‘open’! If the open system works, it should not matter there are CIA or FSB, commies or libertarians “infiltrated” making the code.
If those Russians had been in that position is because their contributions have been stellar, otherwise they would never have gotten there. Their contribution and effort has been robbed from them just because they mothers give them birth in the wrong coordinates.
Linus is a god for many of us… with human traits though… His Finland, although historically robbed by Russia, achieved its highest splendor during the decades of neutrality, not by fiercely antagonizing one or the other power… same as Switzerland, Ireland, Austria and Singapore.
All this started with a US law so he has to comply with. However, instead of those unhelpful comments, he should say that in open software it is unwarranted… not to mention countries can get sanctions for their actions, but not civilians that cannot choose where they are born.
If we are to believe that Moscow is trying to put something into the kernel “undetected”… gosh, what an organization based on the US with a so pro-establishment leader may be doing so? For real, now I am starting having my doubts on the kernel!
Ukraine was neutral before 2014, that didn’t help avoid an invasion. Not to mention they occupied Moldova and Georgia before that too.
They have not been able to attack the Baltic nations or Poland because they joined NATO.
Neutrality word salad is only for the ignorant or those who support russian imperialism.
Ukraine was awkwardly neutral (it was more a pro-anti rotation govs) before 2014 true… why US senators and Nuland ended there fanning a coup and ended handpicking the leaders? The invasion happened in 2022, 4 month after Russia send a letter to NATO to keep off Ukraine. Russia, as imperialistic aims it may have, have no intentions, not capabilities of invading Poland, Lithuania or Finland. Finland was no NATO and not even the USSR touch it. Mexico’s since Obrador is highly critical of the US, but wisely, choose to calm things down rather than going the Cuban and Venezuela route… see what works best. Is it fair? No, but one has to be pragmatic.
Worth noting that they stayed out of Nato until it was obvious their lunatic neighbour with “imperialistic aims” wouldn’t stop invading others…
Hey, I’ve heard that before in 2014. You know the three day invasion?
And because I really think you are a troll: the best part is, NATO has yet to set foot on the ground, while Russia is running to rogue countries like NK.
Besides, Ukraine being “awkwardly neutral” did not stop Putler from invading, did it?
You use a lot of words, but a foundation of your “facts” are blatantly missing.
Putin invaded after the US fomented coup. before that, Ukraine just kept alternating pro-western pro-russian governments, the coup was done to prevent that alternation (even though the pro-western was going to win in 11 months, but that was not enough for US). Russia, could just not see being kick out of Crimea by the US with a coup. Imagine Cuba gets the capability of kicking US out of Guantanamo… US would just declare the Guantanamo “lease” as US land in a second. Lets not mention the vital or historical importance Crimea has for Russia that Guantanamo does not for the US.
Dude. You are ranting.
Find help.
I am ranting! Linux should be open for all, we should not have fallen this is Pro-Western, or Pro-China, or this or that, it should remain OPEN! We’d just caused Linux to be viewed as the payment messaging SWIFT and a sided institution so others will look for an alternative. Yes, today, after 2 decades, I am a bit Linux fan. I understand Linus had to apply the Presidential Order, he could just point his disagreement and even proposing the foundation to move to Switzerland or Mexico, but he did not; he did not offer his support for the people he dismissed after years and years of working for him.
You’re definitely speaking to someone who’s being paid 15 rubles a comment to post here.
If you omit the middle of the 20th century, sure. The Finns declared independence from the Russian Empire in 1917, under the approval of the Bolsheviks’ Declaration of the Rights of the Peoples of Russia. In 1934, Finland and the USSR reaffirmed a non-aggression pact for 10 years. In 1939, after penning a deal with Hitler to carve up Europe between the Nazis and the USSR, Stalin demanded that Finland, who had maintained a stance of neutrality, cede territory for military use and, when they refused, ordered shelling and invasion.
Neutrality or even open trade did not prevent the USSR from invading then, not did handing over nukes save Ukraine from invasion in 2014.
My very fist post on lemmy and already see the upvote downvote game… When someone votes should be demanded a public reason, no?
What you should have posted was nothing.
<img alt="Screenshot_20241008-211121_Firefox" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/9efe117d-37af-4a5c-9175-0d815e2ef20d.jpeg">
At this point I’m just hanging out in this thread to block people with replies so awful I don’t think we’ll ever have the possibility to have a civil discussion about anything whatsoever, ever.
It doesn’t even matter what “side” people take, it’s just 80% garbage here now.
you lost me at this
not sure if troll or just really ignorant.
Executive Order 14071 is more than 2 yrs old… Linus waited till the grace deadline (in 1 week) to apply it, obviously he found it non necessary all this time and he trusted those Russians until the grace period expires. No, not so ignorant, nor a troll. And yes, Open systems is easy to detect maliciousness, better yet, you can pin point who contributed what for everyone to see.
blah blah blah. you’re obviously trolling or have no idea how FOSS is developed.
if FOSS is so secure then why is it a popular attack vector for Russian and Chinese espionage?
just because something is public doesn’t make it inherently more secure, I’m honestly disappointed in your dangerous and clearly flawed take on FOSS.
FOSS is great, but it’s really no more and no less secure than closed sourced software.
So why Linus waited 2 years and a half to apply the Order until the grace period expires? He obviously does not like Russia, but he did trust those individuals (or system)!
I don’t care and I’m not going to argue the point you want to make because it’s frivolous.
he’s the maintainer, he can do whatever the fuck he wants whenever the fuck he wants and to whomever the fuck he wants on his project.
Removing people from CREDITS looks like someone should have been mindful before acting.
They were removed from MAINTAINERS, which is what identifies the people responsible for maintaining a piece of code, a subsystem of Linux, not the credits, which is encoded in the git commit history.
Not gonna lie, this is kinda a refutation of the whole open source model. I was led to believe that it shouldn’t matter who writes the code, as long the code is able to be interrogated/corrected.
The current ceo of usa is supporting a genocide in gaza and the former ceo is a fascist. Does the same logic apply here?
I think pressure should be put on the US to divest from genocide. Sanctions from our allies would be helpful… Surely with the international court declaring Israel’s actions a war crime it is easy to make a case for it.
Our election system has fucked over anti-zionists and needs reforming, which is happening, but not by this November.
Ranked choice voting is gaining popularity, electoral college is under pressure and people are fed up with voter suppression and gerrymandering and things are moving in a positive direction on the local and state levels.
SELinux from NSA is evil. Got it.
I don’t think that’s what they were saying, but I don’t think you’re making that point in good faith either.
What are you even trying to say or suggest here?
It is appling the the same standard
Should this logic work? Hell no. It’s simply prejudice that against any nationals that they have ill intent of doing something because their country do something bad. Just like a child can’t choose their parents, a citizen can’t choose their nation at born.
The wrench attack argument can be applied to any nationals too, by anyone.
altlinux devs:
oh come on we are not trolls
Looks like it is about time for a hard fork maintained outside NATO countries.
Or, alternately, and I’m just spitballing randomly here… Russians could gtfo of Ukraine and go home?
Only if this standard is applied universally. I agree.
You know what would be a great way to establish that standard?
GETTING YOUR FUCKING ASSES THE FUCK OUT OF UKRAINE!!!
And I’m only suggesting this because every day you don’t, will absolutely be a horrifying misery for every Russian, further destroying the fabric of the country and guaranteeing the aftermath will be less recoverable.
…you only want Russia to stop genociding Ukraine if all other war stops? Until then you want the genocide to continue?
Yes, russians should gtfo of other countries universally.
The US occupying 1/3 of Syria and Iraq for far longer is ok though.
In comparison? Yeah.
Russia, the dumb drunk fucks they are, even tried to rush our forces, because they were outnumbered 50:1 but apparently Russians can’t do math and don’t understand you don’t fuck with Americans unless you’re 5000:1, or at least don’t try to charge joint forces with a bunch of morons running across the desert.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khasham
We also didn’t commit a proper genocide on them Ala the Holodomor.
I guess it just sucks to be trash.
Yep, the US is so powerful that is why Assad still in power and all regions with large population are kept away from US. Holodomor is highly disputed if is man-made. Specially when you consider Russia had a equally devastated famine at the very same time (Soviet famine of 1930–1933) and another a decade prior (Russian famine of 1921–1922). But of course, we only care about the mostly Ukraine affected one Holodomor one (1932-33) because it fits our anti-Russian agenda. As a rural guy, let me tell you, ironically, when famine strikes, the ones who suffer the most are farmers (a long story to explain here why)… Ukraine and parts of non industrialized Soviet Union all suffered famine and millions upon millions died, no distinctions if they spoke Russian or Ukrainian.
Jesus, the oil companies would love you!
Just putting this here so it’s above that absolutely disgusting, genocide-denying propaganda from polar:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
they only killed like half a million brown people in 10 years and have the world’s largest prison population both per capita and in total
How many of these Russian maintainers were in Ukraine?
Don’t care.
They can still write and submit, they just can’t be maintainers, because every second there’s a single uninvited Russian in Ukraine, Russia should go fuck itself.
Russian people aren’t the Russian state
And that’s unfortunate for them.
The Russian state is still hurting other people, they get some of the backlash. C’est la vie.
If there is 0 motivation to ‘rectify the issue with leadership’ then there is 0 accountability at all.
What backlash do all Americans, all Palestinians, all Israelis, all Chinese, all French, and many more deserve?
Don’t know, but if they want to avoid that backlash there’s literally 1 person they can remove to fix it.
Or let me guess, Germans in 1945 didn’t deserve the cruelty they got from the red army either?
Good idea, I expect you hold the same standard for all Americans, French, Israelis, Chinese, and Palestinians too
You’re right, they didn’t. Shockingly, being cruel to civilians and conscripts isn’t cool. If “lashing out against oppressors” is okay then I’m sure you supported what happened in Rwanda? What about the Khmer Rouge killing foreigners?
I’m sorry, Russia celebrates their cruelty to civilians on a yearly basis.
They were cruel to civilians for sport: …m.wikipedia.org/…/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956
…m.wikipedia.org/…/Battle_of_Grozny_(1999–2000)
MaybeObviously this is the only language Russians understand to teach them to stop.Russians are not the Russian state, I’m well aware of what Russian(and don’t forget other Eastern Bloc militaries did at the time). My relatives were arrested for protesting in the Prague Spring. Actually, one of those relatives runs an organization for political prisoners. This kind of reciprocal cruelty will just make it more common. Just look at the Yugoslav wars, or the eastern front in WW2 if you don’t believe me. Or every war that’s happened in the middle east or south east asia for the past 50 years. Actually a lot of soviet oppression of the western republics (Ukraine, Causes, etc) was justified based on the cruelties nationalists did from those countries while fighting on the side of the Germans in WW2. This nationalist/xenophobic “revenge” on civilians is evil. (And rests on the same premise as was used to justify 9/11, collective guilt)
If the cruelty had stopped, I would agree revenge is inappropriate.
So I’ll stop wishing for, the painful death of Russians, and even donating to buy drones to kill Russian soldiers and wish for the best outcome for all Russian people.
5 seconds after they leave Ukraine.
They have to learn a lesson, and unfortunately Russians only speak the language of blood. Proof cited: the invasion of Ukraine.
Has the cruelty done by the US, France, Palestine(under Hamas), and Israel stopped?
Don’t know how feasible is a fork of the kernel, but if given a choice, I would choose the distro with the kernel that does not ban people from any nationality every time.
you mean like the Ubuntu fork North Korea uses?
I hear they’re friends with Russia now, maybe they’ll share.
lol @ “hard fork”
Just because Russians can’t approve commits anymore?
Go and do it then.
He didn’t expel all Russians, just the ones working for sanctioned Russian companies.
social.kernel.org/notice/AnIv3IogdUsebImO6i
Important context and a good decision
That would’ve been great for them to clarify earlier XD
That would’ve generated fewer clicks. Sensationalism is always more profitable.
RIGHT?? I was so disappointed until I learned that bit of context. Even the original article I read about it didn’t mention it
Well, this is The Register. Not exactly a paragon of stellar reporting here.
No, this is on Linus and the Linux Foundation
Good! So why the incendiary comments Linus made on Russians. It is so hard to say something like this: "I have to expel them from the project due to a US law forced us to do it. However, I had trust on them all these years and they contributed a lot to the project (that is why they were working here). Now, I am against the law because we should not discriminate people for the origin. Moreover, the claim that they can harm the software is unwarranted because it is OPEN and many eyes are on it. Finally, this harms the entire Linux project because now makes it an “American"project rather than an global one. Sad times.”
I am also against Russian aggression on Ukraine! But would no ban any Russian because of that. The same I am completely against US occupying Iraq and 1/3 of Syria, yet never would occur to me not to hire an American because what their country does. I really don’t understand why is so hard to understand for Lemmy community the double standard.
You can get big fines if you don’t comply with sanctions though. And in the end Linux is an American foundation.
Linus was still an ass, though. All this drama is 100% his fault.
Agreed. I would comply (US’s courts can be very hard with you if you don’t) but you can dismiss those Russians with honor and thank them for their contribution. Then, you can consider to move the foundation to a more free environment (Switzerland, Mexico, Spain,…)
Strange. In another comment just minutes ago, you were tacitly blaming Ukraine for being invaded, Kevinovich from Florida Oblast.
Insults apart (to Russians, Floridians and Lemmy community) , I do not blame Ukrainians for anything, specially when they are the biggest victims here. I blame the secret cabinets who decides their destiny for power, let those decisions are from Washington or Moscow, but let me tell you for sure are no from Kyiv. Now, historically, if you live close to a mayor power you do not like much (think of Ukraine or Cuba), the best is to have a strong army but never to join another distant power thinking it will save you, they will just use you.
So when Ukrainians try to push for closer alignment with the EU it’s a Washington-backed color revolution and thus is no different than Russia rolling into the literal tanks.
Like, even if you’re not a Russian troll you’re still adopting a conspiracy theory that completely ignores any agency the Ukrainian people have.
Don’t ask for logical arguments from Russians trolls
You can blame ukraine for being invaded and also being against russian aggression. You sound like you are trying to spin the narrative
xz attack was an open source attack and it would be silly to assume that it was unique.
This has nothing to do with xz
I don’t think you understood their point.
What did I miss?
In response to:
The xz attack was an intentional backdoor put into a project that was “OPEN and many eyes are on it.” Also, it was discovered due to the way it was executing and not because someone found it in the source. The original assumption has been proven wrong.
Oh, yep I didn’t see that. Though definitely more eyes are on Linux than were on xz
Have you noticed exactly how many Russians are bigots who support the mass murder of their neighbors?
I mean there’s probably a lot who don’t, but they’re busy firing missiles at civilians in Ukraine to get around their 15y work camp sentence.
You are going to find bigots in every country. In US the biggest political figures right now are a fascist and a genocide supporter.
Some people would disagree with you lwn.net/Articles/995294/
Your own link 1) does not attest to that and 2) has a comment replying to it directly contradicting what it’s saying in the first place.
.
.
Who’s boot? Linus’s or Putin’s? I’m assuming you’re on Russia’s side by your instance. It’s weird how constituent you people are. Literally anything, you’re defending Russia. If the US was invading a sovereign nation to take it under its influence, I’m sure you’d be against that. As would I, because I’m morally consistent. You somehow justify Russia’s actions yet are against the west expanding and exerting their influence. Care to enlighten me to the difference?
And before you answer: no, Ukraine is not part of Russia and did not start the invasion. Even under the USSR it wasn’t part of Russia. It was a member state of a union of states, as the name implies. Russia does not have any right to it.
.
russian economy after over 1k days of war is evaporized and putin now is Xis little dog. so if we all work together now nobody will remember a country called russia in 100 years. nations are just a phantasy and it wont hurt to let go of some.
I think it’s scary that the Russian Federation will probably “Balkanize” if Ukraine won’t capitulate, and with how many nuclear weapons it has, that’s terrifying to consider.
Then again, they probably don’t work very well given what we’ve seen about the performance of the so-called “2nd/3rd most powerful army on Earth”. But even a few potentially in the hands of an even more unhinged maniac than Putin is unsettling, to say the least.
We’ve seen missiles taking off and getting intact to all parts of Ukraine, then exploding.
Their precision was far worse than advertised by Russian state propaganda, but that’s irrelevant.
A nuclear weapon doesn’t have to be more precise than needed to hit an average county, in US terms.
Also the Russian economy has done nothing of the sort. Its good, nice things dependent on Western companies have died, say, cars production.
But even in their advertised form sanctions work on the span of decades, not years or months.
The performance of the Russian military was what you say in 2022, but now it is good enough for Russia to be making advances in Ukraine now. Ukraine is bleeding.
This is easily solvable by Western troops being sent to the grinder (one can do that unofficially - everyone does) on a bigger scale. For whatever reason this doesn’t happen.
About performance of the Russian military … I’m not sure you realize how much experience matters. Humans are soft, unreliable creatures. A learning structure created by most experienced, intelligent, honest humans will decay over time if it’s not checked against reality, that being war. And war against a military close to its equal, not against someone much weaker.
Russian military in 2022 was very different from what it is now. So was Ukrainian military, but like I said, Ukraine is bleeding.
My point is that both militaries in experience (not talking about anything else) will be among the best in the world when this war ends.
Yes, I know how nuclear weapons work, and usually a MIRV delivers warheads to airburst over military bases and population centers.
I didn’t make this claim that the Russian economy has evaporated. The person I responded to did.
What I actually think is that Putin is largely fucked if he can’t convince Xi to create and enforce using an alternative to petro-dollars and SWIFT to BRICS.
Even if the North Koreans he’s recently imported help him take Kyiv, he will need money to keep his proverbial boot heel on a guaranteed drawn out Ukrainian insurgency that will never let his army sleep.
Drawn out insurgency is something that won’t happen the way you are talking about it, Chechens have already tried.
Admittedly, it was harder to feel compassion to them for the general population outside of Chechnya, because those “revered freedom fighters” even in the years of their “almost independence” would have people lynched on the streets, do kidnappings and slavery and what not. They were similar to ISIS.
Our world is, ahem, very complex. Propaganda may be clearly insincere, but match the general direction of what the population knows and how it feels.
Getting back to Ukraine - I feel that Putin’s goal is not occupying whole of Ukraine, it’s making it subservient.
About him being largely fucked - I remember people in 2008 saying that the whole of the Russian regime are dumb thieves and are largely fucked. I wouldn’t such things about people holding such amounts of power for so many years.
well the fall of the udssr was a joy so i expect part 2 to be great aswell. from what i understand the russians also want to buy mcdonalds, iphone and porsche and not live gulag life. when hitler was dead all of a sudden my fellow germans werent into nazi shit much. once putin gets to eat bullets chances are good russians lose interest in killing their neighbours. stupid russians.
First and foremost, Russians do not want to kill Ukrainians. But that’s like saying that people do not want to pay 40% of their income on rent and utilities. Nobody cares what people want
I wonder what the secret baltic/polish/sauce is that they improved so fast after the fall of the wall?
Why are moldova/ukraine/belarus struggling.
As you mention, the balkans haven’t experienced the same rate of improvement after the fall of the ottomans.
Honest answer, fear of Russia. Baltic states and Poland know first hand that given a chance Russia would gobble them up so they focused on getting into NATO and EU while Russia was still weak.
Moldova, Ukraine and Belarus stuck with CIS (Russian sphere of influence) and it hasn’t paid off for them. Ukraine got what Baltic states and Poland feared (which is why they’re one of the biggest supporters of Ukraine) and Moldova went “oh fuck, Russia can’t be trusted” as they decided to go down the path of leaving the CIS and joining EU and NATO.
The countries who decided to embrace the west got a better deal than the ones who decided to stick with Russia.
The whole Grad is seething I’m loving it.
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That’s a dick move
I really hope this thread is filled with bots because otherwise you have really hit the bottom. The thread is filled with racism and bigotry, and it’s allowed only because it’s against russians…
Explain
Maybe you can provide an example?
Imagine a thread filled with people insulting brazilians
No examples then. Cool.
Really insightful, thank you. Please give me a recipe for a cheese sandwich.
Not my fault if you are racist and i have to provide you an example to make you understand that insulting other nationalities is equal as racism.
Blanket insults to Russians would be bigotry, as “Russian” is a nationality comprised of many ethnicities, not a “race”. Words have meanings.
So, yes, let’s not ostracize Russians carte blanche. Rather, let’s do that to those who support Putin and his wars of aggression and genocide of Ukrainians.
Simply put, “Fuck Russianz.”
Join your Russian comrades on the front and bring every single MAGAT with you. The NATO and Ukrainian tungsten will greet you.
you sound like a racist, perhaps you should join them