This researcher wants to replace your brain, little by little. The US government just hired a researcher who thinks we can beat aging with fresh cloned bodies and brain updates.
(www.technologyreview.com)
from lemmee_in@lemm.ee to technology@lemmy.world on 03 Oct 2024 16:34
https://lemm.ee/post/43944953
from lemmee_in@lemm.ee to technology@lemmy.world on 03 Oct 2024 16:34
https://lemm.ee/post/43944953
threaded - newest
This is the correct way IMO. “Uploading” your mind to a computer is making a clone/copy, but the original dies the same.
I think the only way we know it is us for sure is if we are conscious in both the original and clone at the same time. Like… okay… I know this is me in the new brain, I’ll shut down the other one.
the other one: i’m pretty sure you’ve got it backwards, pal
No, no… you misunderstood. We’re just taking a trip to the brain farm up north. You’ll be able to think with the other brains up there. It’ll be fun.
Read Old Man’s War.
Maintaining continuity of consciousness is the only thing that would make me feel comfortable with converting myself to a machine intelligence.
I hate to break it to you, but our meat brains don’t even have continuity of consciousness. We become unconscious all the time. The only real constant is the “hardware” our consciousness emerges from, but even that is always changing.
Except our brains are still functioning. If they didn’t keep functioning, we’d be brain dead. The point is that there’s a common thread that connects every waking moment together.
I don’t get the down votes. Did y’all forget about sleep? No one vividly dreams every night all night long. Often it’s the fade to black going to sleep then the sudden awakening.
You do not die every night.
How would you know?
How do you know you’re not a copy of yesterday’s you? If a clone has your memories and you’re not around anymore, then what’s the difference?
Don’t try to get philosophical about this. There is a hard difference between copying a brain and actually transferring consciousness.
Er? It’s a philosophical conversation since, you know, brain uploading is not a thing.
If you don’t want to engage in philosophy, you’re in the wrong place.
You’re mixing up speculative and philosophical.
You’d have to experience death for the clone to continue being the only copy.
Yeah. In the example above the original is dead, and a clone with all of your memories up until the point of death is generated.
In that case, there is continuity of concussions, at least as far as anyone can tell, least of all the clone.
Obviously not, but what is the functional difference? If you can’t tell it’s happening, does it actually matter?
Yes, yes it matters a lot. If you die you do not wake up again.
Sorry, should have been more specific. If you died in your sleep every night and came back to life in the morning, and you couldn’t tell it was happening, would it matter?
It’s not a question with a right answer, I just want to hear your thoughts about it
I’m that case no it wouldn’t matter. It would make us all feel much better about the possibility of life after the body dies though.
What if a copy of you woke up in the morning? So you could see your dead body from yesterday, but consciousness would seem as continuous to you as normal–you went to sleep yesterday and effectively woke up today, just in a different body? Would it bother you knowing you weren’t technically the same you as yesterday, even if it seemed like it to you?
Probably because I’d never want to sleep again. That would be a horrific way to find out you only have as long as you can stay awake.
That’s not what he means and you know it.
What does maintaining continuity of consciousness look like to you? As in you are able to talk to your copy? And continue to live your normal life outside while your digital self lives their digital life?
Or are you saying you want the transition to digital to be seamless, where your digital self remembers laying in a chair, a quick pin-prick, and then they’re in the digital realm?
Keep in mind, we have zero understanding of how you’d get the meat consciousness to transition into the digital consciousness - it’s likely not even possible. The two options for copying are keep both alive or terminate the original somewhere before bringing the digital one online. There’s many ways to do both, but those are the two.
I agree.
But here is an interesting thing to think about:
What is the perceived difference between falling asleep and waking up the next day, vs going to sleep and copying your consciousness to a machine/new body.
Some sleep is conscious (dreaming) but they’re easily forgotten. Perhaps being unconscious still always has a grain of consciousness (but is just forgotten).
It seems there is a grain of reduced experience while sleeping. Copying seems to imply it’s always a clone (a different ego, a different person).
Your brain is still functioning while you’re asleep. If it turned off all the way then you’d become brain-dead.
But would you notice?
Probably. If you’ve ever been under anesthesia then you’ve probably noticed the difference between sleeping under anesthesia and sleeping under normal conditions. Personally, I normally get the feeling that time has passed when I sleep, I didn’t have that feeling when I had my wisdom teeth removed; and anesthesia still doesn’t turn your brain all the way off. I’m pretty sure if your brain actually turned off all the way and then turned back on again, then you’d probably feel like you’re a different person.
You wouldn’t notice because you’d be dead. Your clone wouldn’t notice because it would think it was you. Your friends and family wouldn’t notice because they’d think your clone was you.
That continuity of function is arbitrary. In reality it provides people comfort in some idea of a soul but there’s nothing suggesting it actually provides anything to the continuity of consciousness.
Between every loss in time, where you stop forming memories until you wake up again, you have nothing to affirm that your current consciousness is the same as your last waking period’s. The only thing vaguely providing that illusion is your previously-formed memories, which would exist all the same on the digital mind, in theory.
I don’t think you understand. Your consciousness is just one process amid a myriad of processes that your brain runs. It’s that continuity that matters. You’re correct that I don’t know if my current consciousness is the same as prior consciousnesses, however what matters is that my brain has never shut off, giving me the feeling as though I am the same person; and it is because of that thread that I am the same person (though perhaps with a different consciousness).
Furthermore, you can’t achieve immortality through digital consciousness if you just copy the whole thing and throw out the original. Again, it’s the continuity. It honestly confuses me why people think that’s a rational idea when the very obvious problem is, “what if something goes wrong and human me wakes up?”
That’s why you have people, like me, who get frustrated when people start getting philosophical about this shit because they think you can “just make a perfect copy” of a person to achieve immortality.
Seriously?
No.
You just killed yourself and made a copy of yourself. You didn’t achieve shit. Your new self might be happy, but your old self is dead. You’re not suddenly going to wake up as a digital clone. You’re not waking up at all, it’s your clone that’s waking up.
And hey, if that’s good enough for you, then so be it. Just don’t pretend you’ve achieved immortality; it was your digital clone that did. You’re still going to die.
It also confuses me that so many people seem to believe that you’re literally brain-dead while you sleep. If you were literally brain-dead then there’d be no way for you to wake up. Sleep seems to be when the brain processes memories too, so if your brain fully shut off, then it wouldn’t be able to processes memories while you’re asleep. Finally, afaik, once the brain shuts off, it can’t turn back on; evolution didn’t plan for a situation in which someone’s been dead long enough for brain activity to cease before their heart starts pumping again. So why does everyone insist that you go brain-dead the moment your head touches the pillow?
This convo has gone on for centuries at this point. The Brain in the Jar, the teleportation conundrum, Thesius’ ship, it’s all already been covered over and over. people like you still keep crawling out of the woodwork thinking you know better than every philosopher that already waxed over this problem ad nauseum.
Your ‘continuous self’ is just as worthless as a concept. The idea that your ‘sense of being the same person’ is being held together by being apart of your plumbing just as much of an illusion. It’s worthless.
To elaborate, you are not the brain. You are the observer, the thing which exists as a byproduct of the brain’s processes, perhaps even a process yourself within. There’s also plenty of times when you will lose time other than sleep, like concussions, getting blackout drunk, panic attacks, and after those times you have no memory of making decisions or acting in your own accord, but you were. You, the observer, were absent while the brain kept working. So where were you?
You act as though you’re sure you are still the same observer as the one who went to bed. That is completely unsubstantiated. You may have just been born into your body when you awoke today, and will only have until your body falls back asleep again before you cease to exist, replaced by another process that thinks itself is you, another observer.
And if ‘you’ one day woke up in a digital world, like our own, it’s you’d be none the wiser, because your self is simply a collection of processes and memories. It’s arbitrary. It’s all dust. There’s not some special ‘continuity’ that keeps you alive somehow.
The body. It’s feeding you vast amounts of information every moment, it’s the one making decisions, you’re the AI assistant providing analysis and advice
If you clone a tree, you get a similar tree. The branches aren’t in the same place. If you clone a human, why would the nerves be laid out the same way? Even if it’s wired up correctly, without a lifetime of cooperation why would your body take your advice?
Imagine you wake up. Red looks blue. Everything feels numb. The doctor says “everything looks good, why don’t you try to stand up?”. You want to cooperate with the doctor, but you don’t stand up. You could move, but you don’t. Rationalizing your choices, you tell the doctor you don’t feel like it. You feel your toes, you shift to get away from the prodding of your doctor, but you just can’t muster the will to stand
Imagine you wake up. Your sight is crystal clear, you feel your body like never before. The doctor says “don’t move yet”. With the self control of a child, you rip out the itchy IV to get the tape off of you. The doctor says something in a stem tone, and you’re filled with rage. You pummel the doctor, then are filled with regret and start to cry
Emerging science suggests this kind of situation could lead to brand new forms of existential horror
!keming@lemmy.world moment?
The m in stem stands for medicine. Maybe your new body doesn’t trust experts, so when doc spoke in an overly educated tone it provoked aggression. Possibly because of overhearing this tone during incubation and while getting the original brain replaced
Or maybe I made a typo
reading this comment suddenly reminded me of the “Pantheon” show.
Man I can’t get that brain laser out of my memory. So brutal
Brain of Theseus.
The Island
<img alt="Meme: always has been" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/fb2ebf63-548f-427b-92ff-a8fa96ea9e1d.jpeg">
Yes, because who wouldn’t want to live for centuries amidst floods, fire, raging mad politicians and greedy billionaires…
Well this really exists for those billionaires and rulers. This isn’t for the common person.
They’re so mad that they’ve removed themselves so far from us and we still share a common experience in death. That’s unfair for them to have to be associated with peasants in such a debasing way. So now they’ll remind us that death is for the poor or at least not living centuries will be for poor.
I have never understood people who make this argument. In all of history, can you point to a single time when technology wasn’t eventually commercialised and made available to the masses at affordable prices? The billionaires don’t want to keep it to themselves, they want you buying more stuff from them.
Very interesting. I’ve also seen research suggesting that the application of stem cells to damaged neural tissue within the spinal cord could repair it, so the idea that you could use a similar approach to actual brain health isn’t such a big leap. But still, wow. I wonder how long it would take for the immature cells to develop into “adult mode” that’s fully integrated into the patients cortex. In order to replace the entire brain, you’d have to do it in like, 8 parts, with years of recovery time in between each surgery. Also there would exist the potential for the new cells to develop into like, a second, smaller brain, if the connections sour or if the new material isn’t stimulated the “right” way.
Wow, that’s wild.
I am not renting my corporeal existence from a megacorporation. There is no way this is ever affordable to the masses without some pretty huge caveats
Your Brain^tm^ privacy policy has been updated. Blink once to accept the new privacy policy.
Caveat 1: Move out of the US
Caveat 2: ???
Caveat 3: Extended youth
That would be the, become a citizen of a country with free health care, part of the plan. That would be the hard bit.
I mean, most of the masses already do meet that requirement. OP seems to think there are only ‘masses’ in the US and nowhere else.
No. Absolutely not. Whenever anyone says, “wouldn’t it be great to live forever” remember that means people like trump and Musk are with us forever. Unless people take things into their own hands, but that’s another issue.
But that would also mean their polar opposites would also be with us forever, the objectively best of us
They won’t be able to afford it.
Maybe the procedure would fix whatever’s wrong with their brains. Like, maybe Trump would slowly regain the ability to form complete sentences. I’m imagining a Flowers for Algernon situation where he wakes up one day, reads his own Wikipedia page, and is briefly ashamed before the non-neural parts of his body crap out.
Hey, we only have to get lucky once. They need to keep being lucky every time.
If this can restore functions to stroke victims again, it’s absolutely amazing.
If this is vastly successful which remains to be seen, there might be a path format to the longevity part of the idea.
This could help a lot of veterans and football players too
I can think of a lot of football players who are in need of more brain.
CTE.
I mean, they were in need of more brain before the CTE too
Hey I resemble that remark
Happy cake day!
The final boss of subscriptions
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh…
I stopped using shampoo for unlisted purposes.
zipbomb time
FROM THE MOMENT I UNDERSTOOD THE WEAKNESS OF MY FLESH IT DISGUSTED ME
We don’t need immortal billionaires sucking up everyone’s oxygen.
Yeah it’s not like the rest of the population ever benefits from advances in technology… Oh wait…
Found the immortal billionaire. Your username fools no one, highlander.
If you haven’t, you should watch and/or read Altered Carbon.
If you choose to watch, it is my opinion that it’s primarily the first season that’s worth watching.
Well the “not having extreme longevity” doesn’t seem to function, they are here anyways.
Somebody’s been watching Picard.
I’m a transhumanist, and I’ve never heard of Picard in the context of something you watch, and what’s being spoken of in the article is something that’s been part of our wider Philosophy for longer than I have.
Picard swapped his brain into an android body. It wasn’t very good writing.
Wounds like Dresden Codak is a better story.
I don’t want to live longer, fix my fucking knees and back.
…fresh cloned bodies…
This would do that.
If they make it so I can eat cheese and go outside in summer without drying I’ll happy
Yes, please focus on the Global Dryness problem first. I must be wet at all times.
Ya the SENS repair approach is the way to go IMO.
I want a brain update and a penis upgrade please! Yes 275Tb of ram for my penis and 6" of brain 🧠!
After upgrade, years later in a CT scan. Dr. “That is a weird looking brain it almost looks like a pecker.”
Total mindfuck.
Cyberpunk, let’s gooo🤣
I don’t want my penis remembering that much.
That actually made me laugh out loud. 😂
Oops
The penis upgrade already exists, it’s called a “vaginoplasty,” sweaty 💅💅💅
As long as it’s made mandatory to cover with insurance so it’s available to everyone. The last thing we need is an immortal ruling class.
Don’t worry, going by past history this will be available to any and…uhh, [checks notes] oh, uh-oh.
Oh at this point it seems like we’re treating dystopian science fiction as a guidebook instead of a warning.
Someone’s getting hangry and needs a Soylent.
Hold on, what color Soylent are we talking about? Is it the delicious, definitely only plants, green flavor?
Hoping real hard that Alternate Carbon is not becoming reality.
I see that you too have heard the prophecy.
On the plus side an immortal ruling class might actually start caring about climate change.
Sure, in the most dystopian way possible.
“Have you tried ‘kill the poor’?”
… and reduce emissions by wasting the rest. But due to negative selection leading into that upper class they won’t be able to manage the planet further despite thinking that they can and will die of hunger eventually.
Let the death of Saburo Arasaka be a lesson to us all: even 150+ year old bastards can get choked the fuck out
Is a forever expanding population of old people much better?
If they’re functional, and we get serious about space or birth control, then no it’s not a problem. But that is another path we can take to really juice the dystopia.
It will take a very long time indeed before we can reach another habitable planet enough to alleviate an exponentially growing population, and forced birth control will be unpopular, not to mention probably employed as eugenics by those in power against those who aren’t.
There’s always orbital habitats. They ramp up a lot quicker than even a Mars colony.
Not the way I’d want to spend the rest of my life, that’s for sure.
Eh, it would be worth it with the right recreational activities up there and knowing we weren’t setting up altered carbon.
You’d have zero control over your existence. Someone else would own that station and you’d exist entirely at their whim. They would decide if you get food, air, water, shelter. No real access to nature. I’d rather die.
I already live the renting life. Not much is going to change.
You’re not renting air and water. You have a market of options to choose from. None of those things will be true in space.
Air yeah, water though. We absolutely rent water. My point though is that we’re already used to paying a monthly sum to exist.
In a market economy. I’d never sign up to be slave to a single corporation that has complete control of my life and livelihood.
Well hopefully we don’t ever get to an orbital habitat fully owned and controlled by anything except a representative government. But we do need to get off this rock and humans are bad at long term planning. But we’re uniquely good at. “OhShitOhShitOhShit, we need to engineer something right now!”
And yeah I realize that’s close to brinkmanship, but really I’m just confident we could do it if we were properly motivated.
this might finally be a way to eliminate insurance companies
So we get Universal healthcare then, right?
right?
no
If that’s the case, then people with the new brains should have their sex organs harvested.
Huh?? 😭
.
I did not see Biden creating a cloning and immortality medical research arm of the government but I guess it’s proof he already knew he was getting old before the debate and no wonder Trump wants back in the white house.
Millennials and Gen Z: *bond over their death wish Scientists: *ETERNAL LIFE
Could they have at least waited for the boomers to go first, they’ll never give up power now
“Millennials are ruining the death industry!”
No thanks. We don’t need rich people living forever.
Speak for yourself. I think it would be great.
They can live forever but have to trade their fortune for it permanently
Might be the only way to get them to give a shit about the environment.
I doubt it. They will just dump shit further away. If their solution default is to make things “somebody else’s problem” there’s no reason to believe they will stop thinking that way.
That might be their outlook on “local” pollution for a while, but you don’t think going from 20 years left to centuries to live might affect their opinions on global climate change?
Not really. Many of them are already heavily invested in life extension tech (not that I think it will work, but it means they’re optimistic). I think their general worldview is that technology will fix it, at least for them.
Yeah, I’m probably being too optimistic.
Seems your plan doesn’t work, they are here anyways.
I’d rather not enact the highest stakes ship of Theseus
Probably the best description I’ve seen of this lmao
You don’t want to save your old brain chunks and put them back together to see if you can make on old version of you?
If you want a bit of a deeper dive, Sean Carroll’s Mindscape gets into the science of aging and known workable remedies/treatments.
The good news is that Billionaires will not be living forever any time soon.
The bad news is that we’ve got a cellularly defined terminal limit and there’s nothing we can do to simply reset the clock. “Cloned Bodies” for animals are dysfunctional bordering on nightmarish. The human brain’s plasticity isn’t something you can renew with a pill or a potion. Blood Boys don’t work. There aren’t trivially replaceable components in the human body.
I’d be fine with billionaires getting it first. As much as I’m not a fan of late stage capitalism, I refuse to cut off my nose to spite my face; they got A/C, feather beds, cars, baths, and all sorts of other luxuries long before us plebs got them. Let them beta test the stuff, and by the time the economies of scale pick up enough for it to be affordable to the rest of us, the kinks will be worked out.
Of course there’s always the possibility of a cartel withholding it from the masses, but that’s what the second amendment and guillotines were invented for.
Its wild this research is even being attempted, its borderline unethical to experiment on otherwise healthy people.
I fully don’t expect immune system driven aging to be understood until the Thymus better understood. DNA reproduction and telomere related aging will not be addressable until cell to cell signaling is finally mapped, and methylation activation/deactivation can be targeted.
Most likely some kind of cloned brain tissue can help reduce age-related cognitive decline and some diseases. Imo we’d get far more out of targeting specific diseases than going after aging.
That’s nothing to do with the back that clone is impossible and just that cloning is hard. You are acting as if it is an unsolvable problem.
It’s possible in the sense that you can get near identical genetic replicas of the parent organism.
But the side effect of this process is in line with historical experiments of inbreeding. Most notably, you get a high instance of progeria, which is the opposite of what you want when aiming for life extension.
It is an unsolved problem. Whether it is solveable (either theoretically or practically) is an unanswered question.
But there’s a real possibility that “anti-aging” is, at its heart, a war against entropy that we can’t win.
The best we can do may be to archive the information of a subject and pass it on to an inheritor. And we’ve already got a good handle on that, by way of schools and libraries and making babies.
Or maybe not. Maybe there’s a trick to indefinite cellular repair and replacement. It’s just not anywhere on the horizon. If it exists, the closest we’ve come so far is hypothesis. Nothing we’ve tried has successfully undone aging, even at a single cell level.
You’re going to need to provide some citation on that one because I see no evidence that this is a fundamentally unsolvable problem. It’s not a mathematics issue, it’s a scientific one. As far as I can tell there’s no biological reason that organisms need to age and die, (see lobsters) so it isn’t a war against entropy because entropy isn’t biological aging. They have nothing to do with each other.
All of the above you would know if you weren’t intent on being a disingenuous twit.
I linked to the podcast which has citations to the research in the show notes.
Take it up with the Second Law of Thermodynamics and Decay Theory of Immediate Memory. You’re trying to turn a human into a Ship of Theseus, but at best all you’re doing is imperfectly copying and replicating the information therein. We run into the same problems with computer memory, and the only real working solution is to make multiple perfect copies at discrete intervals as backup.
That’s simply not possible at the cellular level at this time. Nor would backup/restore of cellular data be a practical solution, particularly as it regards the human brain, any time in the foreseeable future.
You’re doomed to die, just like everything else that’s existed to date.
That’s not how the laws of the thermodynamics works. Biological immortality is perfectly possible and we see it all the time in nature please look it up.
Cellular decay is a consequence of entropy. The solution to decay is replication. But replication is imperfect because of errors in the process. You’re still dealing with decay, only this time it is in information.
Point to the immortal organism.
Good lord, just let people DIE. Imagine what a rotten place this would be if people with outdated mindsets continued to control the world decades or even centuries after their expiration dates. People were already angry about 80 year old presidential candidates… what happens when they’re 120, or 150?
For $10 a month you can get the brain implant without ads.
You know… I’m just gonna check this DNR box.
I know it’s a scientologist movie but “battlefield earth”…
Brain updates? Now with integrated thought-crime prevention using AI-safety training data.
Psycho-Pass is an anime based on exactly that.
I’m in, lets do this
Something something Doctor Who Cybermen.
What’s that I smell, is it the doctor for doctor death season 5?
they tried that a few years back via a quadraplegics brain transplant to a normal body. he died on the table. not likely to change that with cloning
Why not?
go look at images of old telephone wiring like when POTS was still the main method.multiply those rats nests of wires by a billion and shrink that them down to the molecular size and you might see the issue
Just enhance a few times and it will be easy!
I cut a big nerve in my thumb years ago, and apparently plastic surgeons fix that sort of thing.
They reattached the nerve bundles, but I was told the sheathes could be realigned, but the nerves would have to grow back from the point of the cut all the way to the skin.
At first one half of my thumb was entirely numb, and over the course of well over a decade I’d get pins & needles as bunches of nerves would finish regrowing, except attached to random channels in the nerve bundle, so my brain had to completely remap all those signals to what they actually meant. Also extreme nerve pain near the cut whenever it was bumped, I assume because many nerves just didn’t grow successfully and remained near that site.
It felt super weird because hot, cold, pain & touch were all mixed up, but eventually my brain sorted them out. It still feels a little weird, especially near my nail, but I haven’t had a pins & needles experience for a few years.
The problem with doing that with a neck is that it would take wayyy longer and the chances of the patient dying from complications due to no brain signals working right… yeah I don’t see medical science fixing this unless we can regrow nerves in a much shorter span of time.
Wow, that’s fascinating. Thanks for sharing your story.
Thanks! As far as I know I’m not describing anything too unusual with the mixed-up signals, I think pins & needles is essentially that, just a bunch of nerves randomly firing, so you probably do know what it’s like in little doses.
I’ve been paying attention to it since I wrote that, and it definitely is still slightly more numb on the affected side, I think I was right that not all the nerves regrew completely.
I’ve just looked it up and there has never been a full brain transplant, so I don’t know what you’re on about.
They might have confused it for a head transplant?
Although neither patient was alive at the time of the transplant.
I don’t know if a full brain transplant would be feasible, or even a good idea. Not only would none of their senses and motor nerves work for weeks while the brain and nerves re-established themselves, but they would be walking around in a dead person’s face, body and speaking with their voice. That seems genuinely horrific.
There’s a trick most of the population can do to “youth up”. Rewind decades of biological age for your entire body. The answer is out there. Start with the jungle people that even in old age have hearts like 20yr olds.
Cardio
Plenty of meat bags walking around now without a fully functioning brain. Can we use those?
Just like in the classic movie Bicentennial Man