from lemmee_in@lemm.ee to technology@lemmy.world on 08 Jun 13:26
https://lemm.ee/post/34071304
It’s a nightmare scenario for Microsoft. The headlining feature of its new Copilot+ PC initiative, which is supposed to drive millions of PC sales over the next couple of years, is under significant fire for being what many say is a major breach of privacy and security on Windows. That feature in question is Windows Recall, a new AI tool designed to remember everything you do on Windows. The feature that we never asked and never wanted it.
Microsoft, has done a lot to degrade the Windows user experience over the last few years. Everything from obtrusive advertisements to full-screen popups, ignoring app defaults, forcing a Microsoft Account, and more have eroded the trust relationship between Windows users and Microsoft.
It’s no surprise that users are already assuming that Microsoft will eventually end up collecting that data and using it to shape advertisements for you. That really would be a huge invasion of privacy, and people fully expect Microsoft to do it, and it’s those bad Windows practices that have led people to this conclusion.
threaded - newest
This is the best summary I could come up with:
As CEO Satya Nadella described it, Windows now has a photographic memory that uses AI to triage and index everything you’ve ever done on your computer, enabling you to semantically search for things you’ve seen using natural language.
Your favorite web browser, video editor, or music streaming app of choice could release an update that begins scraping data from Windows Recall and uploading it to its own backend.
Many have already assumed the worst; that Windows Recall will eventually be used as a means to sell data to advertisers and train AI models, and that if it’s not happening today, it’s only a matter of time.
It’s a feature reserved exclusively for new PCs shipping under the Copilot+ umbrella, which means if you want to use it, you’ll have to buy a new device with a neural processing unit (NPU) that can output 40 TOPS of power first.
But there’s a very dark cloud hanging over this feature right now, and a lot of privacy conscious people are simply not going to be able to subscribe to the idea of Windows Recall in its current form.
I suspect this means we will see new features and capabilities added to Windows Recall over the coming months, along with updates to ensure the data it collects is secure on the device.
The original article contains 2,259 words, the summary contains 219 words. Saved 90%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Ya, a PR nightmare for the next 15 minutes until the next unbelievable thing comes along and the ADD nature of people forgets windows is watching everything they do.
That’s usually what I think too, but after watching how Twitter’s gone to shit since the two big user departures, I think this could legitimately affect Microsoft’s bottom line.
That will rely on businesses moving away from Windows. That is where they make a ton of their money with Enterprise licenses and Office 365 subscriptions.
And businesses don’t give a shit about their employees’ privacy
We handle a lot of IP on our Windows PCs so it’s debatable. However, in recent years, Microsoft has taken over most of our services with SSO, office 360, teams, etc so who knows.
They do care about keeping their company secrets and proprietary info though. Recall could make corporate espionage a cake walk.
If you look at sysadmin forums and groups it seems like most recommend disabling recall. Just about every enterprise will have confidentiality, security, or legislative requirements that recall is simply inconsistent with. It’s understandably been a hot topic.
Yup. It’ll depend on how they handle Recall at the institutional level.
It’s a given that hospitals and law firms will have to turn it off, as they’re required by law to honor privilege. We’ll see what choices they make.
I find the nosedive in Twitter’s stock price these last few years encouraging. It seems for many there is a red line.
Twitter is a great example of the exact opposite being true. Are people upset? Absolutely. Did they leave the platform? Nope. Maybe a small percentage.
Respectfully, it’s not.
The user departures, and response to further enshittify, have driven their stock price into the ground.
What user departures? The platform has barely dipped. Stock prices are meaningless.
X is the one telling the number of X users. Do you really trust Melon to tell the truth?
You’re assuming my source is Musk.
So far in this thread only one person has actually shared a source of any kind. Care to share with the class?
Number of users doesn’t matter because most people don’t close their accounts. Twitter’s actual usage and traffic is down by 20% since Elmo took over and their revenue is also massively down.
theguardian.com/…/twitter-usage-in-us-fallen-by-a…
Who said anything about “number of users”? “Monthly Active Users” (MAU) is the industry standard.
Are you serious? The comment you replied to explicitly says “user departures”. And the article I linked is about active users.
Is this how you respond when you’re proven to be blatantly wrong about something? Totally pathetic.
Bruh are you for real? The article linked is about “user departures”. What does that even mean? It doesn’t even have any sources for any of the information provided.
Is this how you respond when you have no idea WTF you’re talking about?
Twitter definitely lost a ton of users and tons continue to leave. That’s why advertisers have pulled out and their stock price has tanked. Twitter is a bad example
Define “tons”? As a percentage, it is miniscule, and it remains the place where politicians, companies and other entities make public announcements. It’s also, for some reason, the only platform supported for customer support from various companies.
lol, literally just making stuff up. Their number of active users dropped by 15-20% since Elmo took over: theguardian.com/…/twitter-usage-in-us-fallen-by-a…
I think advertisers have made some impacts to the bottom line, too. I don’t have any direct evidence for this, but I used to get ads for things like Pepsi. Now it’s mostly things like Larry’s Pillow Case Repair or pelvic floor steaming kits.
It’s X.
Stop deadnaming X.
Anyone still clinging to the remnants of its former existence, please close your account. Stop kidding yourself.
I’ll never NOT call it Twitter, and you can’t make me.
You say that but deep down you know it’s Elon Musk’s X now. The dream is no more. You’re an X’er Harry!
I’ll stop deadnaming Twitter when Musk stops deadnaming his trans daughter.
And for the record, I’ve never used Twitter. It’s always kinda sucked. Now it really sucks.
Musk is a complete shithead and that’s not gonna happen.
Calling it Twitter is only going to accommodate the people that refuse to get off that nazi network.
Cause you know Musk gets off on the hate of people still calling it Twitter, exactly because how he treats deadnaming.
What’s X? Is that the older version of Wayland or something?
It’s a shittier version of Mastodon but for right wing lunatics and russian bots.
I believe the biggest thing that will hurt MS is moving to subscription. The vast majority of users aren’t gonna wanna have a forever fee when they buy a laptop/PC
That’s definitely going to be a problem for them, yes, because it’s also going to drive a ton of traffic to Linux and Linux is going to get even better.
A lot of people would have huge bursts of negativity about this, but at the same time remain stubborn enough to not even consider evaluating alternatives. Microsoft and Apple spent decades making sure this would work
For now at least, I block as much telemetry at the network level (DNS level) using pihole.
Annoys my wife and kid at times. I try to explain why and what it means but convenience is king unfortunately.
My mom only really browses the web, writes emails, and edits and occasional document. I’ve given her my old XPS 9350, with Fedora installed on it, and she’s been very happy with it. Keeps saying that everything just makes sense, and when she needs something, it’s easy to find. She’s far from tech savvy, but not completely clueless either
That’s cool!
I’m swapping to Linux finally because of it. Few things are black and white but these things do have effects and some additional percentage of users are shifting over because of it.
I agree with your point, but I think it’s important not to forget just how shitty tech media is a holding these companies to account. Half the shit most mainstream tech journalist publish borders on hagiography for these companies.
Oh please it’s not watching everything you do. It’s just taking screenshots 🙃
Ok fine, I’ll repeat it again:
You’re right - many consumers will likely forget about it and just use it anyways. But enterprise customers absolutely, categorically will not. Even with their damage control, this is still going to hurt them a lot. Moreover, it’s going to hurt hardware sales from Intel, AMD, and Qualcomm, all of which have dumped MASSIVE amounts of capital into this tech. This is going to slow the rollout of NN-optimized chip tiles, and that is going to directly hit their bottom line. Microsoft hurt themselves AND the three most important hardware partners they have.
Lol! How incredibly detached from reality!
Nobody cares! Well a few people care that make a big fuss, but most people don’t ever think about their os. I bet a pretty big percentage don’t know what os they use and I bet more than half don’t know what version of the os they are using.
Nobody cares!
This. Normal users give zero shit, they neither understand nor care about any of this. If they can use a cool feature they will. How many use Facebook again? What do they care about privacy? Exactly.
They lost trust from some niche <10 %, that’s it, from which most use/want to use Linux anyway.
If we could tackle the idea that Privacy matters and get more common folk aware of what they are losing, then I would like that very much.
Sure, would be great. Like many other things, including far more important topics. But that is not the world we live in. The head line is simply nonsense and it will break absolutely for Microsoft.
Yeah, its sad that it’ll take something happening to the common person to take Privacy seriously.
They don’t care, but their nephew that has to fix the PC is it acts up cares, and when the nephew says he’s not touching that thing with a 10 foot pole they’ll consider that for their next purchase.
And if in the news there is an article that thanks to copilot they could identify the culprit in a crime, they’ll look at any Windows version and their stroking material in a map on that drive a little different.
Haha I thought I recognized that username. The same person arguing with me that recall was a brilliant move which will solidify Microsoft as the industry leader they’ve always been 😂
Ah, the asshole! I thought I blocked you already. Bye!
Hey block me too, you’re too dumb to exist in my space
Not really
For the retail market, most people just have phones not computers anymore. Microsoft has already lost The Battle of Windows phone.
For the Enterprise market none of this recent b******* is going to enterprise customers anyway, they would have group policies and volume licensing deals to avoid all the b*******.
For those poor retail customers who still run Windows, they suffer, but they’re minor, not significant
Just passing through and corrupting children.
O7
Thank you for your service!
Fuck yeah
This is for the enterprise market more than anything. Large companies are already logging and mining everything. Slack, Teams chat, Teams voice, email, keystrokes…literally everything. Microsoft’s problem is that Enterprises are using third party products to do so. Recall solves that competitive issue for MS. I have no doubt that it will be tied to their cloud offerings, and I have no doubt that MS will retain the right to use it all of the data from the consumer side for AI training.
I’ve worked extensively in the Enterprise environment, and data exfiltration is a massive concern for any company with intellectual property, which is most of them.
Having data leak at all, another vector for exfiltration, is a huge huge risk.
Heck, I’d be surprised if Microsoft itself let its own developers run Total recall
As an infosec professional for way longer than I care to remember, you are preaching to the choir. That said, all of our clients are both large enterprise and critical infrastructure, and they all log (and mine) everything. Not only that, they are shipping this directly to third parties. It makes me break out into a cold sweat every time I think about it, but here we are.
PS: OK, all the US based ones. Our EU based client does not do this to my knowledge and I assume it has to do with EU regulations, but that’s just a wild guess.
Good point. But the companies are at least controlling the data pathway, being aware of it, signing off on it, doing it for their benefit.
And I imagine at least for the US companies, every company they exfiltrate data to, is contractually obligated to keep their data private
For the majority of commercial users they literally don’t give a fuck either. It’s on techies that really care about his stuff sadly.
Why are you censoring yourself? Are you stupid?
Possibly. But I’m also definitely lazy, and my voice to text automatically censors. And I don’t feel like changing it. So f*** it
Oh my, that one is really cute
Malware will disable that icon. Law enforcement will buy [that] malware.
Well find out in 10 years that that wasn’t true and that it did capture data when the icon wasn’t present whoopsies.
Or what? Your computer will take out a club and beat you to death?
You can’t convince me someone couldn’t do it with a simple registry edit, or even just replace the icon with something else by swapping an icon file somewhere in Windows/
github.com/xaitax/TotalRecall
Microsoft should go further and further with this so that windows becomes worse so that less people use it.
A lot of people here seem to be missing the nuance.
Sure, it’s problematic for their consumer market share, but you’re right that that’ll probably be forgotten by the mostly tech-illiterate populace over time. But that’s not the problem.
Step 0 of MS’s plan for this should have been “make sure there is an absolutely bulletproof and ironclad way to disable that stuff completely for enterprise customers”. And they didn’t do that. So now, enterprise IT writ large is going to… you know… just not buy any of these devices. Which is absolutely their right.
But the really frustrating bit is that MS may have significantly harmed the rollout of ARM-based laptops (as well as x86 chips with beefy NN-optimized tiles) with this, and additionally done real, massive harm to Intel, AMD, and Qualcomm by doing so. All three of those manufacturers have gone to ENORMOUS lengths to roll this tech out, largely at MS’s behest. They’re all going to take this on the chin if the rollout goes poorly. And the rollout is already going poorly.
But MS thought they could Apple-handwave away the details. And they can’t, because a lot of people who understand the absurd security implications of continuous capture and OCR and plaintext storage of the OCR output. It’s not something you can handwave away. It’s entirely a non-starter in the context of maintaining organizational security (as well as personal data security, but we’ve already talked about why that’s a bit of a moot point with the general public). But enterprise IT largely does try to take their job seriously, and they are collectively calling MS’s bluff.
The problem for the long term is that MS has pretty much proven to the IT industry with this stunt that they can’t be trusted to make software that conforms to their needs. That’s a stain that isn’t going to go away any time soon. It might even be the spark that finally triggers enterprise to move away from MS as a primary client OS. After all, Linux is WAY easier to manage from a security perspective.
TL;DR: the issue is that MS has significantly damaged their reputation with this stunt. And you can’t buy reputation.
Edit:
The article has an update:
It’s definitely a move in the right direction… but it also begs the question of why didn’t they do that in the first fucking place? Seriously, some heads are gonna roll over how badly this whole release was planned, and the very clear lack of due diligence.
For anyone for whom Micro$oft’s reputation wasn’t already cartoonish villainy, sure.
For those of us from the olde worlde, who marveled at dancing monkey boy on a grainy quicktime file, it’s absolutely par for the course. They can shutter everything but cloud tomorrow and still rake in 100 Billion a year for the foreseeable future. It was a monopoly thirty years ago (convicted 20 years ago) that has eaten and shat whatever and wherever it wanted for decades.
The judiciary and congress don’t understand shit, and if they did m$ bought them. Done.
You don’t say…
I figured on my gaming and VR rig that I’d begrudgingly upgrade it to W11 when W10 stopped receiving security updates and support but at this point the recall feature (which will be used to train LLMs regardless of what Microsoft promises or guarantees) has ensured that I never install that kind of spyware as an operating system.
I’d rather spend forever troubleshooting and getting my Valve Index to work with Ubuntu than deal with a giant backdoor.
better get W10 LTSC in VM and use it until EOL and beyond, it’ll be more privacy friendly this way
Using an internet connected OS past EOL is definitely not privacy friendly.
He said until EOL. Windows LTSC, the IoT version in particular is supported until 2032.
No, he said EOL and beyond
I wouldn’t go for Ubuntu. They are also run by a corporation that has done problematic things with the project. It also just doesn’t work that well anymore. Better off going for something Debian or Fedora based, or even an Ubuntu derivative like Pop OS.
Isn’t Ubuntu Debian based? Or is that no longer the case? I haven’t used it for about a decade.
It’s debian-based, but such an outlier from the rest of the linux ecosystem that it might as well be its own beast.
Yes, it is, although there are many differences between both.
Many suggest Linux Mint (one of the best regarded beginner distro) as well, which has two versions, one based on Ubuntu and the other on Debian.
So, the three are like Debian’s most popular branch.
It’s Debian-based, but Canonical has been really Microsofty about its development. They now have Snap as a universal packaging format, and have mandated that all official Ubuntu flavors (so X/K/Lubuntu and others, but not derivatives like Mint) must include Snap, and must not include Flatpak in the default installation. They’ve also fucked with APT where installing certain packages, like Firefox, would first install Snap and then the application’s Snap package, without even telling the user. They’ve had some controversy with Amazon ads in the search results, and advertising Ubuntu Pro in the fucking terminal. The default GNOME desktop also has a ton of issues.
I, and many others, recommend against Ubuntu. Linux Mint is the most commonly recommended “just works” distro. That being said, switching to Ubuntu, if able, is still preferable to staying on Windows.
I agree most of this is fucked up, though I don’t know what search results you mean. Also, I always find it funny that people refer to the Ubuntu pro thing as “ads”. Yes it technically is, but it is a fuck ton less shitty than what we’ve come to know as ads in literally every other context. It’s literally a couple lines of text about packages you can get premium updates and support for
IIRC: about decade ago Ubuntu (still with its own Unity DE) processed system search in a way it shoveled amazon ads to users in first places. Or something lime that.
The Unity desktop’s search would display Amazon ads based on the query. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu#Conformity_with_Euro…
It’s like the “nazi bar” anecdote. It always starts small. You let in a bit of ads, a bit of self-promotion, then the revenue reaches a plateau. You let in a little more ads, maybe a pop-up saying that you could be more secure. Then a few years later you have a Recall situation. If you let one nazi drink at your bar, he’ll bring his friends, and you’ll be running a nazi bar.
I don’t trust Canonical to act with integrity.
Yes, always has been to my knowledge
Pop os is fantastic
It varies. I struggle with its interface personally. I also had to force it to switch to Wayland to get some things working reliably. The hybrid graphics mode has issues too using the GPU when it doesn’t need to. Other than that it works reasonably well out of the box, though you still occasionally have to deal with headaches from apt. A lot of the issues will hopefully be fixed when the cosmic desktop is ready. Some more can be fixed if they end up going immutable, which I believe they are working on right now. The Ubuntu version is also kinda old.
Personally I would rather be on NixOS or Fedora right now, or UBlue’s Aurora. I am probably not a good candidate to be running something like Pop OS though. I am too experienced and my needs and wants are too complex for the poor thing.
I am sure you’re right about at least most of this but I will say my experience hasn’t been very troublesome. Other than a driver issue I had after an update 2 years ago, I haven’t had much trouble. Since I switched to an amd GPU especially, since gaming is much smoother. I had a lot worse issues when I used Elementary OS. Stuff broke a ton. For example, I had a weird graphical issue in Firefox for months.
Elementary OS probably isn’t what I want either.
Are you talking about a desktop? I am on a laptop with Intel iGPU and Nvidia dGPU. The battery life in Windows isn’t great, but it actually seems worse in Pop OS. I did actually catching it using the dGPU when it shouldn’t be. Obviously Nvidia doesn’t help things, and I am glad it works as well as it does. Still it’s kind of sad. I might buy a second laptop just so I can have battery life that isn’t horrible.
Cosmic desktop from my understanding will have a better implementation of the hybrid graphics mode to stop this nonsense.
Yeah, desktops. I do think though that the Intel/Nvidia combo you have makes Linux in general a bit tougher than any setup more Linux friendly than that.
Very common setup sadly, actually the second laptop I have had like this. I can’t imagine AMD + Nvidia is much better though, as Intel graphics has great support on Linux. KDE was probably a better bet, and I would have to change distro to get KDE 6.
You could try win 10 iot ltsc 2021 out. It gets security support until 2032.
I would also suggest not Ubuntu, and instead say you should give Bazzite a try. They are specifically interested in gaming with Steam (they even have a spin for running on Steam Deck). They might have already put in the work troubleshooting the distro with your VR gear.
They say this like anyone is going to do something…
Perhaps if I wish really, really hard they will. I just will not hold my breath!
The average user is not even going to know this was a thing
I wish Linux weren’t completely fucking impenetrable for casual users.
It’s gotten a lot better over the years
When I first tried it (back in 2010) it was pretty rough all around but after trying it again recently due to the whole TPM requirement for Windows 11 I’ve found it to be really straight forward
Linux Mint is really user friendly and is what I’ve even put on my grandma’s pc
Your grandma probably hates the fact that you did though. There’s a small chance that’s not the case but I’d be shocked if she hadn’t complained about it many times to other people.
People who don’t understand what an OS is typically use linux mint fine because they just open chrome or Firefox.
Even the casual Zoom meeting is a breeze because of the Flatpak client.
So you need a whole ass sandbox program just to run Zoom? Hm.
You actually don’t need it.
If you trust Zoom enough, then you can install its official client from its webpage, without “a whole ass sandbox program” that restricts its access to important parts of your system.
But it’s your call, I prefer the other way around.
Its a selling point for me privacy wise no? The program Doesn’t need the access to everything like my graphene phone.
You keep making posts that made sense or were accurate 5-15 years ago, thats why you keep getting downvoted.
Pretend you know nothing about linux, and go and try something like Mint, and youll likely have an experience that mirrors the people downvoting you.
You say that but at the same time there’s a linuxmemes post in my feed right now where people are joking about how broken drivers require an OS reinstall so you know
Well why dont you go into that thread and ask those people when the last time that happened was, or how often it happens.
You might just be taking a very old meme too seriously.
Very old meme that was posted 5 hours ago as of the time of my original comment, hmm
Memes get reposted, that one is pretty old.
Also there are distros that are more volatile, but all of the most popular ones are extremely dummy proof and intuitive. See Pop_OS!, EndeavourOS, or Mint for example.
That’s the real concern. Can they go online, read email, and easily look at their photos?
Your grandma would hate and complain about upgrading from Win10 to Win11 just the same, though. Everyone hates change itself. What the change is made to doesn’t really matter.
People do hate change. The bigger the change the more they hate it. That’s exactly why Windows to Linux is much worse for them than Windows 10 to Windows 11.
Cinnamon desktop (Linux Mint) is actually pretty damn close to the windows desktop, so the change is mostly just cosmetic.
People in my family are straight forward and blunt with their opinions and how they feel about things. She did mention it was weird looking but she was willing to try it out because her system was going to be insecure before the end of next year.
She’s had no complaints so far in the last few months.
I think it is pretty grandma-proof; less is more. Windows xp-like start menu with no web results or other nonsense there, just internet button, picture viewer, and solitaire. Updates can be automated and there’s no easy way to break the ui, like accidentally removing the task bar.
Exactly what I was thinking when I installed it for her
I was even able to give her Space Cadet Pinball back (she was a big fan back in the day and still kills it)
Link to the Flatpak BTW
Man, your grandma is cool.
Only sometimes unfortunately
As long as anything political or related to religion is avoided she’s mostly fine
It’s not that it hasn’t gotten better, but that the entire infrastructure that’s underpinning the GUI is simply completely different than what people are used to. And I’m not just talking CLI here, because the average Windows user likely doesn’t use that to begin with – it’s things like filesystem organization, software management, driver installation, configuration files, etc.
And it’s not that these barriers are insurmountable either, but they DO require a significant amount of cognitive effort that not everyone is willing to put in.
It isn’t impenetrable. ChromeOS and Android are Linux based after all. If you don’t want to be prayed upon by Google you can use things like UBlue (inc. Aurora, Bazzite), PopOS, or Mint.
The advantage of PopOS and UBlue being you can download an image with Nvidia drives pre installed.
PopOS is a very mac like interface so you might not like it. Otherwise it’s pretty much install and go, has good community support, and even comes pre installed on some high end machines.
In the case of UBlue they include images for specific manufacturers of laptops like ASUS, Framework, and Microsoft surface. You also get fully automatic atomic upgrades with rollback in case of failure, similar to Chrome OS. This means even if you do something very stupid like reboot in the middle of an OS update, it won’t matter. It’s engineered to be almost unbreakable even for new Linux users thanks to being partly immutable. You get a choice as well between varieties for normal users called Aurora, one of gamers called Bazzite, a development one called Bluefin, and a server version too. Being based on Fedora it’s also reasonably up to date as well, but without sacrificing stability like Arch does.
Linux Mint is the classic easy to use Linux that runs on most computers made in the last 10 years and often older. It does sometimes struggle on newer machines with drivers though as it’s not using an up to date kernel. What it’s good for is that it pretty much just works when you have it installed and set up. It’s popular so you should get plenty of community support. It’s a quite similar interface to Windows while arguably looking better and definitely using less resources.
I don’t think a casual user would in many cases even be able to tell the difference. I mean you have a desktop with some icons which most of people only use to start the browser which is absolutely identical in both systems.
You have a start menu with other programs and you have a task bar which shows the open programs and some status icons and a clock.
It is really not that different. Most people just start a browser and go on Facebook or eBay or whatever, use a simple word processor for the daily needs. I don’t think they would be able to tell the difference.
My wife’s 91 year old grandmother used Mint without any issues whatsoever. All she needed was solitaire and the internet.
But, a lot of people do look at something different and just throw up their hands and say, “I don’t know how to use it,” without ever trying.
The only real limiting factor is that most computers that you just walk into a store and buy (and are not made by Apple) come with Windows, and people just use whatever comes with their computers.
People rarely switch even default settings, let alone the entire OS.
I’m sure if computers came with Linux, there wouldn’t be that many complaints from casual users after they got used to it.
The hardest people to switch over are the Windows power users in my experience.
Most are not sure how to safely and properly install a new OS. If a computer came with Linux already pre-installed instead of Windows, count me in!
There are plenty of vendors that ship with Linux preinstalled. Even Dell does this with select models.
And just for the record, the tone of this is meant to be encouraging. I love hearing that people are open to other options.
There are vendors who sell laptops that come pre-installed with Linux. Only thing is that they’re a bit more niche. Dell is probably the biggest name who sells computers with Linux as an optional OS on their website, but IIRC they brand it as “developer editions”.
Otherwise, you get vendors like System76, Tuxedo, Purism, etc. (Maybe Framework, but IDR if they even install an OS)
I still don’t think that you can walk into a store and buy any of the above.
Not that installing Linux is difficult; in fact, it’s easier than installing Windows IMO. Most distros come with easy-to-use graphical installers with easy-to-understand language, even for newbies. They also come with a live environment that lets you try out the distro before installing it. Thing is, most people aren’t even going to bother trying it.
Here is to that changing. Society needs better options regular users will be able to just purchase and go, imo.
2002 called, they want their Linux attitude back
I’ve heard this a few times lately. It makes me curious how recent the impenetrable experience was.
I’m shocked at the idea that an average Windows user who tried this year’s version of Debian Stable would find it even mildly confusing, much less impenetrable.
I switch between Windows 10 and Debian 12 Stable, daily.
I find that, on Debian, all the expected features are in the same spots, acting the same ways.
Disclaimer: I don’t have an Nvidia graphics card to cause me headaches.
And I do understand that depending on hardware, installation can be tough. That’s true with Windows, too, of course. At least installation doesn’t have to be an issue for new purchases, since enough PCs can now ship with either pre-installed.
I do have Nvidia graphics, and it just works.
Same. Never had a problem. I installed Linux Mint and it simply worked correctly without any modifications. Quite a bit of care is taken with the UX which is outstanding considering it’s a volunteer project.
Yeah. I am frequently delighted by excellent usability experiences on modern Linux!
Maybe I’m biased, since it’s so much better than when I started. But I still have a Windows 10 PC for my work, and - while the usability on Windows 10 is no slouch - I honestly would have a hard time saying which is better, overall, now. (Ignoring, for the sake of discussion, really obvious anipatterns like the start menu ads in Windows.)
I’d say it’s really easy. The only requirement is making a choice to use something else, which most unfortunately is already asking too much for the vast majority of users.
It’s just a little different nowadays. Like the other user said, they just don’t know they have a choice or what to choose and follow whatever they know…
And what was one of the early bolsheviks’ regime strongest points? They created schools and made people literate en masse, and did it with their own curriculum. People became less suspective to ex elites and religious propaganda, and became their target audience.
Adobe, Google, MS give discounts and special programs for education because this way people get used to their products. Many local organizations that touch these casual users don’t have a real IT department and just flow with what’s given, they don’t make an informed choice like corporations. And that’s probably the place where this switch may even start to begin. A class of students who started with e.g. KDE Plasma would be used to it more than they used to Windows, same with other software. They can already do their homework and play most games. What else do they need?
The sharp corner is to find money to fund select schools to show others it’s not scary and makes it even cheaper for them in the long run, maybe some special troubleshooting team to teach them the ropes. I’ve heard from some users there and on reddit that their computer classes with a geeky teacher who installed Linux is how they’ve rolled in without a problem.
Aside from the security nightmare, I’m really curious what havoc the LLM can cause by hallucinating stuff, based on how suggestive a question is asked.
Wife on husband’s account: “What dating sides did I visit this year?”
“Here are the 5 most popular dating sides you visited last year:…”
“When was the last time employee X watched porn and on what side?”
…
My dad is now pissed at both Microsoft and Adobe, and curious about Linux. If I can find a Lightroom alternative, he might actually switch.
I’ve heard that RawTherapee is good, but not quite on the same level.
Also one of the dumbest names ever.
Sounds like something from a kink brothel in Sedona.
RawTherapee and The GIMP
they knew.
Like darktable?
I haven’t found a suitable replacement yet. I know this is somewhat niche but nothing on Linux can do batch management of Keywords as well as Bridge or Lightroom. I wish I knew anything about C to contribute.
Fun fact: I’ve heard the Adobe suite works fairly well in Linux, if you find yourself a version without DRM
I tried to install some PlayOnLinux Wine shit but it didn’t work.
Have you tried installing it via Lutris and using Proton-GE as runtime?
🫨
Did not work. :( TBF I am not very technically minded with Linux.
PlayOnLinux? When was this, 15 years ago?
I know of the GitHub script to install PhotoShop, but wasn’t aware that the rest of the suite worked.
I also just read that they would. Never tested it myself. I only use Adobe on my work mac.
Ah. I don’t use Adobe products, so not really willing to test myself.
I employed imagemagick recently to batch edit some pics via CLI but I’m not sure if it’s a drop in replacement for bridge and lightroom.
TIL: There are still people that trust Microsoft.
As expected, there is no evidence that this is “the straw that broke the camel’s back”. Don’t waste your time reading this article.
MS has been doing this kind of shit for decades and their market share has never changed significantly.
Was it stupid? Yeah. Are people upset? Sure. Is anyone going to do anything about it? No, because the vast majority don’t care or they would have stopped using it a long time ago.
I’m using windows 11 and after hearing about recall and all the other shit they’ve done, I’ve finally decided to make the jump to Linux
So for atleast me, this was the final straw
I had dabbled in gaming on Linux but never made the jump. After reading about recall I spent a week making my choice on OS of choice ( and then I switched a week after :') ).
I’m fully on Linux now. Even if they fully back down from windows recall I dont need an OS that’s trying to sell me something based on whatever I do in it.
It was my final straw as well.
Edit: and it hasn’t really been bad either. The shader compilation after every gfx driver update is a bit annoying. That’s about it.
I’ll probably run into something at one point. Like some anti cheat that doesn’t work and is preventing me from playing the game.
Im in similar scenario. Which distro you decided on?
If you are interested in gaming, Bazzite is built on top of a Fedora distro but adds default installs of Steam and (optional) Nvidia drivers and tweaks. It’s got a cool immutable root setup. You should be able to stay pretty up-to-date, but can roll back the entire OS if an update breaks something.
I ended up with nobara ( KDE ). Though if i had to reinstall I might give bazzite a go.
No hate for nobara though. It’s working fine gaming wise. Had a gfx issue once after an update, which was resolved by just running the nobara system updater.
I have some issues getting devpods to work. But that is completely unrelated to gaming :D
If you don’t enjoy having driver issues, just install regular old Fedora with Gnome. The fancier you get with Linux, the more maintenance you have to put into the system. Fedora works out of the box.
Tbh it was kind of my fault. I should’ve used the general updater that comes with nobara by default.
Edit: the devpod issue is a bit weird and not driver related. Its got something to do with SSL when its trying to clone the git repo. But I can run the clone command myself just fine. Honestly the devcontainer hasnt really worked out great for me in combination with jetbrains.
It might work better with vscode, but that editor makes me want to throw my device out the window. All the love to people who use it/enjoy it on a daily basis but it is just not for me.
Thanks. I only had so far Linux experience with my Steam Deck, I will look into these distros.
A couple people recommended Fedora spins but I’d recommend just sticking with the big distros (that have up-to-date graphics drivers readily available - so not Debian.) A lot of the gaming-focused distros are only saving you a few terminal commands and increase your risk of running into issues; they’re good, but they may not be as 100% stable as you’ll find in major long-running distros like Fedora or Mint.
I have settled on Fedora with KDE Plasma. Here’s basically everything I copy pasted for gaming:
I also had to enable Legacy X11 App Support through the settings gui so that Discord could receive push to talk presses without having focus.
Sweet, thanks. I want to start something straightforward and so far Mint looks very promising.
Just be sure to get the edge release if you care about gaming or have current (like newer than 2021) hardware. Mint’s main release is on an old kernel, 5.15 I think. Mint edge release is running kernel 6.5, which is from earlier this year.
Linux has lots of flavors; and just like ice cream, you can have a scoop, see if you like it, and try another one later.
I’ve been through so many Linux and Unix flavors over the years, it’s borderline absurd. But what was great is that I found a flavor just right for me and my needs, like finding your ideal car. Don’t worry about making the right decision on a flavor at the start, just dive in.
Ubuntu, Fedora, Mint, Pop! OS, Manjaro, elementary OS, Zorin etc are great starting points. You’ll hear people bigging up Arch, Nix, Gentoo, Slackware, Void, etc. There’s are all great in their own way and very well might be the right thing for you but don’t feel pressured to jump in the deep end (unless you love that thing, then be my guest - Arch was a lot of fun getting it up and running for the first time).
The best decision I can suggest is learning about mount points and having a drive dedicated to your files and simply mounting that drive inside your home directory. It means you can wipe and try another distro wherever you like without having to copy your files off and on over and over again.
I 100% agree. I personally did this:
I had a reason for each switch, and I’m pretty happy where I’m at. That said, I don’t recommend openSUSE or Arch to new users even though I think they’re fantastic, I just think a new user will get better support with something Debian or Fedora derived.
Which distro did you end up on? I’ve been looking into them and after using steamos on my deck, I think I will go with Bazzite kde
I ended up with nobara. I might give bazzite a go at one point, but more out of interest. Nobara is treating me just fine!
If it’s shader compilation under Steam, turn it off in settings. With advancements in graphics drivers and Proton, it really isn’t needed anymore.
I disabled it about 12 months ago and haven’t noticed any difference in performance whatsoever.
Huh. Interesting. I’ll give that a try too then :)
Some, maybe 1-2% of Windows users keep yelling “I’ma switch to Linux”. They then try it for a few days and give up.
You didn’t matter in the first place, but also you will most likely not make a successful transition anyways.
Lol. Okay whatever you say.
Crab
Same here
I get that. And, playing the devil’s advocate here…what happens in a couple of years when the time comes to purchase a new Laptop/desktop that comes pre-installed with Windows? Will your current ire and consternation hold up until then, meaning you’ll take the effort…long after this current “trust crisis” is over…to install Linux once again. Or, with this current scandal a faint memory from a few years back, will you just kind of shrug and say “Hey…it’s there, I might as well just go with it.”
I mean no offense, and I by know means want to presume your answer here. But I’d be willing to bet 90% of the people who, in a pique of ire, replace their current windows with a linux distro, won’t bother to do the same when they purchase a new laptop down the road.
Installing Linux is a pretty trivial process at this point. Not much additional work beyond what already comes with setting up a new laptop. Especially of you’ve already done it before.
Unless it’s arch lol.
Every machine I’ve purchased in the last 16 years has had a Linux liveCD or USB key before first power up. Windows has tried to boot a couple times, when I was too slow to figure out how to select a boot device, but none has actually completed the boot process. I take a sort of perverse pleasure in formatting pre-installed windows without it ever having run.
That’s my strategy as well. I just don’t know how many of us there are that are that committed vs the people who are “temporarily irate” and then go back with their next purchase because its “easier”.
I get your point, and you’re probably right for most, but I haven’t purchased a premade desktop in a looong time - my current desktop I purchased the parts individually and installed windows manually
Linux is superior to Windows. Not only do I get more done and faster, I enjoy the process much more. For example, you know AHK? That useful application on Windows where you can make macros?
Well, on base Fedora you have an AHK built right into the system without any modification and you can use shell scripts- aka a real language instead of the wonky AHK language.
That’s one example. I can list them off rapid fire but I’d just write a wall of text unnecessarily.
My point is just that Linux is better. I don’t use Linux because it’s cool or interesting or I’m a hobbyist or anything like that. I use it because it’s the better option for the things I do on my computer.
That may be different for you. If you are a graphic designer or a music producer that may be different. But I’m usually in a terminal and Unix is the superior terminal. Windows terminal is such a joke they literally had to port in the Linux terminal through WSL
Thank you for your service to this thread.
It’s a little disingenuous to claim people should’ve stopped using something that hasn’t come to market yet. I was looking for other options when they started trying to force me to upgrade to Windows 11, but this absolutely is the last straw that I won’t use Windows on my next computer.
It is. Good thing I didn’t do that.
Oh well I guess the global tide is shifting if you are personally looking for other options.
You said there was no evidence that anyone would change. I told you my personal story how this IS impacting me and how I’m going to change OS on my next computer, and you… just sarcastically dismissed me?
Did you want to actually contribute to the conversation or just be upset?
No that is not what I said.
Because your personal anecdote is not indicative of societal movement.
Try reading the sentence with this implied bit explicitly added. I’m pretty sure this is what was intended, and is why you are getting the response you are.
The bit I added is communicated by the context from the preceeding sentence in the original comment:
I just read they decided to default it to off. They should remove it entirely imo, but with this move, it costs IT departments $0 and 0 hours of their time to worry about.
I think business + government + education usage is more important for them than personal, and as long as this costs them nothing, I doubt it makes a dent in anyone’s plans. Could have been an apocalypse if defaulted to on though.
From what I’ve seen they will be asking yes or no upon setup with no default.
If it’s anything like some of the other features they’ve crammed in they will ask that question over and over and over and over again until you choose the answer they want.
“Not now”
I both agree and disagree. I agree that there isn’t going to be a single ‘straw’, because everyone’s thresholds are different. For me it was back when Microsoft auto-upgraded my PC to Win 8, which was also when they started putting in hard-to-disable telemetry and bad UI. It sounds like Recall is the threshold for some other people.
Also don’t discount that MS’ market share is dominated by a ton of corporate users (who lack a choice) and casual users (who don’t care / are unaware), but at least anecdotally they’ve been losing the power users in my life, which if true in general which will have negative downstream effects for them moving forward (IT departments working to support alternatives, software developers refusing to build on Windows Server / MS software stack, etc.)
If only there is a way to invest in linux usage
For at least 3 decades. That’s twice more than the time between Second Boer War and WWI. That’s the time between the start of WWII and the initial versions of Unix. Or between the initial versions of Unix and Start Wars the Phantom Menace. More than between the original Star Wars and the Phantom Menace.
Where are at point no where new features added to something (phone, OS, website, etc) are only to further monetize the user while providing a minimal benefit.
People are losing trust with technology providers.
If this technology existed back in Windows 95 days people, would have gone wild for it.
The article was revised with a PR release from Microsoft saying they’ll make the feature opt-in.
Let’s of course not forget that things like upgrades to Windows 11, and use of an MS Account instead of local account, were opt-in…until they weren’t. Require them to sign a contractual agreement that this feature will remain opt-in forever.
Why is Lemmy showing me news from the 00’s?
Well, getting their OpenID Signing Key for Azure Active Directory stolen was magnitudes worse in my opinion.
cisa.gov/…/CSRB_Review_of_the_Summer_2023_MEO_Int…
Seen gamers install things worse then Recall. So to them they won’t care. Unless it hurts their latency or fps.
I know it’s WindowsCentral but the article has some pretty naive takes. Given the propensity of threat actors to target Windows due to its market share it’s impossible to not see a system that records user activity as a huge treasure trove for both malware and hackers.
It also doesn’t mention that Microsoft claimed that it would be impossible to exfiltrate Recall data and of course researchers found it not only possible but trivial, with the data lacking even basic protections. Assurances that there are mechanisms to prevent Recall from secretly monitoring you mean nothing when prior assurances about safety have been found to be paper thin at best.
Further it ignores that telemetry gathered by Windows has dramatically increased in the last several years with methods to disable it being eliminated or undone by OS updates. Microsoft is hungry for user data and it would be absurdly naive to think that Recall won’t be a tool they use to gain more of it. If not now, then definitely later.
The author does point out that Recall has been weirdly under wraps, avoiding the usual test bed for new feature rollout. Microsoft has been acting shady about the feature and then the feature itself does shady things (like record PII, credit card data, etc.), of course users are going to think the worst. At this point it’s a survival tactic.
Microsoft doesn’t have trust issues because of bad PR or a few missteps. Microsoft has trust issues because they have violated user trust repeatedly for decades. They have done nothing to make users feel like they care at all about keeping Windows secure and safe and they clearly have no regard for user privacy. This only question is whether this backlash will do anything to make Microsoft reconsider the way it treats its users. I predict they will learn all the wrong lessons from this.
It’s the 1, 2, 3, 4 punch of
“Haha windows 10 EOL is soon and no your computer cannot upgrade 😏”
Followed by the
“We’re thinking about… no? Okay well anyways, we’re gonna shove ads into the UX, even after backpedaling after backlash”
Then the
“Listen the security situation is p bad and we’re not too sure what to do about it. Lots of internal accts have been compromised. Probably yours too, we don’t really know. Shhh, we got big AI news soon.”
And lastly the
“Unveiling, the biggest security nightmare tool in the history of connected devices. From the writers of Total Recall and the masterminds behind Ads in your OS comes: Recall!”
I don’t care what windows does to rectify this. My parents next machines are either Linux or Chromebooks.
If windows 12 isn’t FOSS, Microsoft can pound sand.
This article is nothing but propaganda. There is huge monetary incentive to force people to use Windows Recall and collect their data, and Microsoft routinely uses Windows Update to enable data collection. They began that practice years ago on Windows 7. It’s a ridiculously simple matter for MS to disable the visual indicator and force This Week’s Plan on their users to monetize their data.
Windows Central pretends to be critical of plans to enable a feature that can be made into malware by Microsoft in a couple of minutes, but then back peddles and says it can’t be done (utter BS) and if it could be, it wouldn’t be that bad.
Even if the database remains local only forever, which I don’t believe for a second, the computer will eventually make hyperspecific requests for ads based on the spying.
Only data that is not stored cannot fall victim to attackers. It does not matter whether it is a ‘nigerian prince’, Microsoft or some agency. Even if you completly trust whatever entity with your data right now, they may become problematic in the future.
This is why a low profile is a crucial component of OPsec.
Recall is objectively stupid, even if Microsoft only had their users best interest in mind. And they don’t.
Glad I switched from PC to Mac back in 2022 because I was pissed Microsoft was forcing me to upgrade hardware to switch to Windows 11 which I didn’t want. Apple to me is more private and will be more thoughtful with their AI tools to expand user functionality. Screw Microsoft. This is a user that had used PCs since the late 1980s…
Straw that broke the camel’s back? Every vertebra in that camel’s back has been smashed with a sledge hammer over the past 30 years.
Windows 95 was the last version I was excited about; Windows 98 SE was the last version of Windows I willingly purchased, and XP was the last one I willingly used. When they announced Win7, I downloaded Ubuntu 6.06, “Dapper Drake”. Since then, Windows has only existed on my computers as pirated, virtual machines.
I think Windows 7 was good, and their last decent desktop OS before they started backporting Windows 10 garbage into it late in the lifecycle.
I’m in the same boat as you now. Earlier this year I’d had enough and there was no way I was going from my de-shittified Win10 Enterprise install to Win11. I’m on Tumbleweed for my main PC now.
My job is in the early stages of planning for updating everything to windows 11. I just got my testing VM with it the other day which is my first experience with it and I had an almost physical reaction to how bad the gui looks when I first logged in. I haven’t even done anything with it and I already hate it.
On the other hand the Linux VM I set up at home to test my personal stuff out on has been going swimmingly.
I hated Windows from the day I saw the 3.1 floppies had no write tab (that tiny piece that allowed you to write the disk). My first though was “we’ve payed for this and they forbid us to write on them? Fuck MS”. It was the last original Windows in any PC at home. And I used DRDOS, so even worse (Windows 3.11 had a “bug” that made it crash if it ran on DRDOS).
Tape over the hole.
I know (and then too) but that’s not the point. It’s “you are not selling this to me”.
You lasted until Windows 7? I’m guessing you didn’t have to deal with Windows Vista’s bs then. I changed ship thanks to Vista.
I also suffered Windows Me, but I was too young and at that time I didn’t know there was an alternative.
I dual booted Vista/7 and Ubuntu/Mint for a while but after not using Windows in years ended removing it completely. Now I’m a happy
AntergosArch user ¯\_(ツ)_/¯Wow, I actually forgot about Vista. I never actually had it installed on anything. XP was the last OS I had installed on hardware. Win 7 was the first I knew only from VM installations.
Windows Vista was so bad that it gets forgotten even in a retrospective about how Windows versions sucked. But yeah, Win7 didn’t come out for another few years after that, to rescue the world from Vista.
I have a unique memory of people saying that XP sucks ; after Vista nobody remembers that.
Same.
I, eh, still used it for some time, but then went to Linux.
Linux ftw!
For those of you that are tired of Microsoft’s bullshit, a great place to start is Linux Mint or, if you want to be on the bleeding edge with a rolling distro that still gets some testing, openSUSE Tumbleweed (which is what I’m using).
Signed,
Linux daily driver convert of ~3 months now.
I went through quite a few distros to find one that would cooperate with my laptop and opensuse is the one that did it.
Same reason I picked it. I did some distro hopping when I made the switch and Tumbleweed was the first one I tried that my motherboard audio worked with.
Did you try leap before tumbleweed because I still have a few issues I am running on bandaids right now.
No, I tried Mint and Manjaro for a couple weeks each and a couple other distros I’ve forgotten cause I just booted them up, checked audio was broken, and replaced them. But I know Leap wasn’t one of them.
I started with Mint, but for Windows users I’d advise openSUSE too.
There’s an issue, though, with them preparing for the next big release to become something like Fedora Silverblue or I don’t remember. But for now it’s a distribution with the corporate feeling in a good sense as strong as with Windows, almost none of that feeling in a bad sense, and it’s very polished.
I’ve been driving Linux for about a year now, I ended up switching to Debian because I don’t want my programs updating with bleeding edge releases that can break things. The coolest part about Linux is that you can choose like that.
I found endeavour (arch) to be a much simpler experience vs fedora or opensuse or void. Tpm chip worked right away, clear instructions for setting up secureboot with a hook that signs everything as it’s updated, etc. I could barely get void to boot, opensuse worked well but after a power outage the tpm stopped working and I was never able to get it back, fedora I had no success with tpm. I’m sure that’s all pretty variable depending on hardware.
If you aren’t looking for full functionality of your hardware most any distro should be fine, but…why sacrifice security?
Tell me about gaming on Linux. Most if my gaming is via Steam and I have a Steamdeck which I know runs on a flavor of Linux so it can be done. Is it fair to say that any game that runs on the Steam runs on Steam Linux?
I just got a new prebuilt with Windows 11 Pro and I’ve been curious about Linux for the past few months. I know the variations have gotten better over the years but haven’t done too much research into it. I hear Mint and Arch quite a bit.
Did you mean to say “any game that runs on the Steam Deck runs on Steam Linux?”
If so, the answer is yes. It’s honestly surprising these days to run across a steam title that doesn’t run in linux (though always look into the anti-cheat situation for online games).
No, it’s not that far along. A lot works, but if there’s invasive DRM or anticheat then it probably won’t. If you have specific games you want to play in mind check out www.protondb.com
If you’re curious you can just create a live USB stick to test drive it. Won’t work well for gaming though.
linuxiac.com/ubuntu-once-again-angered-users-by-p…
There is more than one distro.
If you’re still using Ubuntu, I’m not sure what you’re expecting
I don’t think this will bury MS because they can easily market this to enterprise clients ( if they haven’t already ). Recall is a particularly useful tool for any employer that wants to keep track of everything employees do, especially in an age of WFH. They probably figured they can take the PR hit from users concerned about privacy and move on unaffected.
Any enterprise working with sensitive data certainly has to disable the feature. And turns out, that’s most enterprises.
I have heard very little, if any, enthusiasm about this. Nobody seems to be excited about it at all.
I love the concept… I think it should remain a concept
You guys trusted MS before this???
A couple years ago it wasn’t thoroughly and transparently sucking off every bit of personal data it could get, and gearing up to put adds on the desktop on top of that.
When was that
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/efcf356e-9d27-4120-8629-0a7ae08a1ba8.jpeg">
Seems the consensus is that telemetry started with Win7, but I swear I remember privacy people freaking out about Win95 or 98 sending system specs or something back with out telling the user. It’s been a slow boil for a long time.
Yeah I think 7 was when it was a big blip on the radar. But 100% they had to start laying that foundation beforehand, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it was either always there or started making its way in 98.
95 was relatively groundbreaking and a part of me thinks the PC was so new they hadn’t thought of it yet or if it was even possible given the nature of internet, but you can’t put anything past the marketing guys that would probably love to know what colour your shit is.
Yes & No.
From what I remember from that time it wasn’t really a lot of people going on about privacy at that time. We were more concerned with how they just grabbed the BSD networking stack without saying anything about it.
There were a few things w/rt activation that people were pissed about. That was more towards the XP era though.
Though maybe someone else remembers it differently than I do since I wasn’t paying attention to privacy at that point and I don’t remember seeing anything about it in PCMAG or G4
I vaguely remember something from TechTV or Slashdot. Searches only turn up more recent discussions though. The old stories are getting buried by the more recent shit going on.
Don’t worry a quick google search will tell us to use a non toxic glue mixed with vanta black to keep privacy intact
I remember when Windows 10 first came around, and people were trying to bring attention to the privacy issues in the TOS. Now it’s been widely adopted just about everywhere, and this is probably going to be the same.
Is github, owned by Microsoft, the largest public code repository?
I’ve always trusted them to do what they’re great at… which is get a product nearly 100% perfect, then back it up about 20%, and polish it off by shooting themselves in the foot.
Which I’ve always found it insane that EVERY product they ship is like that. The only exceptions (IMHO) to that were Office, DOS5, Win7, (Maybe XP)
I know that I shouldn’t, but here’s what I think about this whole deal, illustrated with a single image macro:
<img alt="" src="https://i.imgur.com/Oz7R9pn.gif">
Get wrecked, Microsoft.
I think that the article does a good job highlighting how much of a trainwreck this is, because Microsoft is not to be trusted. The Windows users hysterically complaining about this are not expecting Microsoft to behave in some outrageous way; they’re expecting Microsoft to behave as usual.
Every generation needs to learn what microsoft is all over again, but they only learn the hard way.
youtu.be/I5qAshY2jkw?t=27
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/I5qAshY2jkw?t=27
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I see no broken backs here. People have been composing songs about Bill Gates being a faggot (I’m not homophobic, that was just the climate back then) since he entered the general conscience. Microsoft being both clumsy and criminal has been the butt of too many jokes since Windows 95 at least.
I’m too young to remember anything older than 98SE, but I remember that when XP came out, people were complaining that it’s slow ugly shit as compared to 2K, and it felt that if MS doesn’t change the general direction, people will remain on older stuff or move to alternatives, Vista was hated so badly that everybody suddenly forgot the hate for XP, 7 was first advertised as something sky cool and impossible, then turned out to be kinda mundane, but usable. Actually with every Windows OS new brand there’s an outrage. With every MS big news there’s an outrage. They always deliver the opportunity.
TL;DR - Hoping that MS will kill itself is stupid.
The thing is, during the 95/98/ME/XP/Vista days Microsoft had less competition in the consumer computing space, smart phones weren’t really a thing, and a PC was “the” way to get online. Nowadays everyone and their dog has an iPhone or Android device instead, and ever dwindling numbers of people even bother to have a PC anymore. So in modern times, there is a nonzero possibility that on a consumer level at least, Microsoft might finally slide into irrelevance. That’s not to say they’ll go out of business anytime soon, but they might not be able to remain the Microsoft we’ve known so far for too many more years.
Nerds use Linux. A lot of people who want to buy an off the shelf computer that “just works” buys a Mac. And everyone else just uses their phone for everything.
Microsoft doesn’t actually do anything (except make the XBox, I guess) that non-corporate users give a shit about except “make computer machine go” and “stupid subscription ribbon bar program I need to use to open files work sends me.”
This is why M$ has been so gung-ho about their path to enshittification in recent years, I’m sure. This is a profitability thing. They see the writing on the wall that just selling operating system and office suite licenses to rubes is not going to remain a profitable business model much longer. Instead, they have to scrape and datamine and sell adds and push subscriptions and all the rest of it for alternative recurring revenue, because no member of the public will willingly pay for a Windows license anymore. I sure as hell won’t… If I need Windows, I’ll pirate it. And there’s no way they are shifting as many OEM licenses as they were in the early 2000’s. People aren’t buying computers like that anymore.
They make their money in azure now. AzureAD, cloud services, intune (managing win/mac/android even Linux). Windows and office are just hobby projects compared to the revenue those generate.
I’m glad you mentioned actual work somewhere along the way.
You have also omitted PC gamers.
For those of you that don’t know about this OS and are tired of Microsoft’s bullshit, you can look into supporting ReactOS as a true Windows alternative which needs it, and you feel you want to give the middle finger to Copilot, Copilot+ PC initiative, and Windows Recall. It can even be made to look like you have went back in time to the Windows XP era with the use of a theme and yet its not Windows, and could run things that you could already run in Windows 10. If even says you can fork it on Github, meaning you could choose to labor for months using it and Linux Technology to build a better OS to replace Windows using it and Linux Technology. And if you already going going FOSS by using Libra Office instead of Microsoft Office, LibraWolf instead of Firefox, and are currently looking to FOSS for your paint program and other things you use, why not look into going FOSS with your OS as well.
you can disable recall in regedit by adding a key and a DWord 32 bit value
Yeah … regedit should not be considered a solution for the user base. In fact any time the user base knows that regedit exists we in IT have failed.
Woof you must absolutely loathe linux
O&OShutup10++ can now be used to disable windows recall as well
I mean 95% of their customers probably don’t care or even know what Recall is but…
I’m learning about it as a result of this thread. I’m still on 10, but I know what to look for when I inevitably am forced to switch to 11.
A number of things I use still aren’t supported on Linux
Yeah this. Fed up with sensationalist headlines that are far from reality. Us Lemmy users have a better understanding of what’s going on but we shouldn’t be falling for this journalism as it’s nonsense.
95% of their customers are businesses, who no, they don’t understand that. But their IT department does.
Their IT department also knows the MS isn’t going anywhere…
And that IT department also knows how to disable it with a single Group Policy
It really is a none issue
There will be corporate editions that Let you turn it off. There is no way that get activated in defence related businesses.
Yeah, you can be damn sure I’m going to disable this at some grand level for my ORG if it makes it to us.
Is this article some kind of apple propaganda?
P. S: I fucking hate Windows.
Though I doubt is as bad as described, I do hope that might soft will.dig it’s own grave, I would be so happy when everyone just uses Linux
And yet again, install Linux. Leave Microsoft behind
You mean like Ubuntu , who put adds in as well.
Choose a different distro then.
That’s not a valid argument.
So someone looking to buy a new machine has a few options. They have MacOS, Windows, Chromebook, or Linux. And there’s a high probability that when they’re at a shop be it online or in person looking for a Linux machine it’s probably going to be Ubuntu.
You don’t get to tell the user, “well you picked the wrong distro, lol” when all they wanted was something that runs the software and hardware they want. The vast majority of users want something that just works, not have to become some expert.
And also, it’s rather dismissive, I show an example of Linux doing the same thing that Apple and Microsoft do… Ubuntu is still Linux.
Users have the right to choose the Linux distribution that best suits their needs. Different Linux distributions offer different features and user experiences. To downplay these differences and claim that all distributions are the same is ignorant. Anyone who wants to get the most out of Linux should be aware of the wealth of options available.
It’s like buying shoes - if someone says they’re too tight, you can say, “You picked the wrong size, lol.” Each pair of shoes is different in many ways.
So, if you can’t understand that different Linux distributions provide different experiences, it’s better for you to stick with Windows, which offers a uniform experience, and not argue about it.
That’s the definition of not being user friendly. And it’s not like shoes. Because trying on a pair of shoes takes minutes, at a store that generally has hundreds of shoes available. And shoes literally do one thing. Your average user does not have nor want to spend nights and weekends troubleshooting the distro they’re ‘trying out’ to see if it works best, then to continue troubleshooting it down the road.
But I do like how you ignored a lot of what of what I said, because it didn’t fit your response. Because unlike you apparently, I think of people besides myself. You also make wild assumptions about me. Should I show you my RHEL installation? CentOS? My Debian servers… I have dedicated hardware and VMs. And I also run Windows. Do I get to have an argument now… do I pass your weird gatekeeping threshold?
And that’s still not addressing the circle jerk where far to many people put linux on some pedestal, worship it, and assume their better than everyone because “btw, I use arch”. Like every distro isn’t going to try to milk as much money out of it as they can if they think they can get away with it. Ubuntu is the most approachable distro (that I’m aware of) and often gets suggested, especially to new uses. Linux is not immune to the problems that plague MacOS or Windows.
Forcing advanced keylogger to your system that anyone who has skills to break into your system can exploit freely does that
Whatevs, sheeple will continue to bleet about how bad things are but not take any steps to enact change.
This other side of the coin, and this is coming from a long time Linux user, is that for the vast majority of its life Linux has focused on functionality and not toward anything the majority of people care about. Only relatively recently is it a fairly good experience for the average user, but it still has some issues that will mean most users won’t even consider it.
I really wish it could become mainstream, but until it fixes that fine tuning then most people won’t consider it vs a Mac or Windows.
Remember the Zune? It has way more features and functionality than the iPod. But nobody cared. There’s a reason it lost.
A lot of us put up with Linux because of our principles or because we’re developers.
Once again, the penguin was been vindicated.
I’m old for using Linux. I just wish my software was.
The day Windows 10 loses support is the day I primary (or solo) boot Linux on my gaming desktop. The more news I read the more certain I am in this.
Why wait?
I have a laptop solo booting Ubuntu and a Steam Deck, they’re great. But on my desktop where I’m primarily playing games, many of which wirh anti cheat, it’s not worth making the switch just yet. I think another year of development into Proton and stability will make it worth it. Also, I got a NAS recently with OpenMediaVault and I only have the time to tinker with one thing at a time :P
Any advice on the switch though, or tools you use lmk!
I get that. Shit like that is the only reason I stick with a dual boot.
I also get that. My self hosted gaming server can be a bit of work sometimes.
Two things, I’d go with Linux Mint Debian Edition if I we’re you. I’ve found it to be the most compatible with my games, (like 9 out of 10 or so), and have had zero major issues/glitches with it. Plus it avoids the drauam surrounding ubuntu.
The second thing is to keep a separate “home” partition for your documents/pictures/game saves/etc. Mine is [Name]_STC, with the acronym being a nod to wh40k’s Standard Template Constructs. The idea being it isn’t named something generic like “home”, or worse using the home folder.
And anytime I need to back up shit, I just zip the whole partition and put it on a separate drive. If something happens, I copy my standard template construct.
Only a true AdMech would consider his backup file to be an STC. I’m laughing, but also, respect. Praise the Omnissiah.
I’m similar except I use Debian, and I just bought a cheap SSD for my gaming computer, knowing that Windows 10 will be well out of service before I retire it. I’ve done a couple of OS transitions before, and I figure not dealing with partition editing or losing files is worth what a 256GB SSD costs in 2024.
I started with Ubuntu, and left because I don’t like how they run things; I think it’s worth trying a few more distros if you haven’t already, to find one you vibe with. Unless you want a project (which some do), finding one that works with your hardware, supports a DE you like, etc is a good time investment imo.
No amount of Proton work is going to fix it, it’s already most of the way there. What needs to happen is for game studios to stop including kernel-level anticheat so that the game won’t intentionally refuse to run under wine
This is status quo for every large corporation. Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, EVERY SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM, Roku… They all, ALL, push boundaries to see what they can get away with to not only sell you something, but also make you the thing they sell. Sometimes they’re bold enough to make it public what they’re doing, sometimes, it’s a leak that happens when people find out how little the company actually cares about it’s users (Apple, so many user data leaks).
My bigger concern is that almost every company now has it in their contracts/terms of services, that all users are not allowed to participate in a lawsuit, be it class action, or court case against them Most of them even have a maximum sue limit too! There’s a lot that have a rule that initial arbitration cannot have a lawyer, but that won’t be enforced.
Is that a valid and enforceable clause though, even if i clicked “i agree”?
Of course not. But it won’t stop them from trying or spending billions on legal fees to avoid paying out a tiny fraction of that.
It should be illegal to include unenforceable clauses in any TOS or contract since it deceitfully implies it means something.
Should be, yes. I’m pretty sure it’s not in the US though. It’s pretty common here.
No.
Sorry, this may be unpopular, but software license click-through agreements are enforceable.
Source: I’m not a lawyer, but worked in a software contracts office with lawyers, so some of it ruined off. Essentially your legal options are, use the software according to the license agreement, or don’t use the software.
A third option would be, I guess, use open source software so you don’t deal with that bullshit.
Edit: Part of it is wrapped up in the Uniform Commercial Code, which is a whole bundle of standard laws which is quite complex. Basically you pays your money, and you get a thing, but there are all sports of knobs and levers to handle every contingency. You can nope out of the transaction, but you don’t get the thing.
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Maybe?
Again, I’m not a lawyer, but I’ve read a lot of EULAs.
However, to challenge that, your have to sue Microsoft, against their team of super-lawyers, the best that Microsoft could buy. And you’d have to do it in the jurisdiction started in the license agreement, which is undoubtedly friendly to Microsoft. And you’d have to have some sort of standing, meaning you have suffered some actual damage from the thing you arguing against, and that you want remedied. So you sue for damages, but it can only be for the amount that you were actually damaged, which is problematic - especially for free Microsoft software. But for paid software, I’m sure there’s a return/refund clause which would make you whole.
And you are paying your own lawyer to Microsoft, right? How long do you plan to sue Microsoft? I guarantee they have deeper pockets than you, and can outlast you in court. And remember if you lose the lawsuit, you will probably be countersued for the cost of their lawyers.
Basically the EULAs are written by Microsoft’s very expensive lawyers. Other corporations cower in fear of Microsoft’s lawyers; I know the ones in my office did. And the rewards you’d get would be a Pyrrhic victory at best. “Do you feel lucky, punk?”
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Yes, and if you ask a lawyer, they’ll say “it depends”.
And the thing it usually depends on, is “how much money you got?” 😎
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I love it when Apple pushes advertising that touts their focus on privacy… when in reality, they’re breaching user privacy in all the ways that every other company does.
A big reason Apple focuses on privacy and apps not being able to track the user is because they want to keep all that data for themselves. None of the restrictions they’ve introduced apply to first-party apps. It gives them ad targeting data that no other company can collect. They do have their own ad network (for things like ads in the App Store), and last I heard, they wanted to expand it.
You can only piss on our faces and tell us it is raining for so long.
“It’s raining, I see” says the blind man as he pisses into the wind
Except for all the uninstallable Apple bloat such as Apple Music, Apple TV, etc. And the numerous bugs and issues, such as still not being able to have the touch pad and mouse scroll wheel have different settings.
I remember when everyone was complaining about how terrible Safari is. The lead developer started having a go and ranting on Twitter, saying that raising bug reports is not constructive feedback.
That was a mess.
Do you have any links? Not that I don’t believe you, I just can’t find anything on it and it seems very entertaining
This feels like the kind of thing I would watch a 2 hour long youtube deep dive video on, haha
Where is hbomberguy when the world needs him
Commiting war crimes against the letter h
I do have a Twitter account but for the life of me I can’t remember what the password is so I can’t actually see the responses, since apparently you need to sign in to see responses now, but if you do have Twitter you can see the responses here’s the link. x.com/jensimmons/status/1491064075987873792
Some nitter instances might work. This one did. Not a shitshow at all, especially as she didn’t say that “bug reports aren’t constructive feedback”
There’s plenty of bug reports in there and she’s behaving how I’d expect a developer to: by asking further questions and version use for stuff that should be fixed. Didn’t see any point where she lost her temper in any way
xcancel.com/jensimmons/…/1491064075987873792
She refused to acknowledge the existence of issues and point-blank refused to fix existing bugs.
Claiming apple is the new internet explorer is only untrue in the sense that it understates the nature of the issue.
Safari is still a pain for frontend developers to deal with. At least IE6 was a static target and we were well aware of all the bugs. Some of the bugs and workarounds even had names, like the “peekaboo bug” and the Holly Hack".
Safari is a moving target that has so many bugs and issues that none of the other major browsers have.
I caught the tail end of IE6 webdev, but the idea was basically “let jquery figure it out”. Not too painful tbh.
Yeah, the main takeaway here is “Apple Bad”
The main takeaway of this article about Microsoft’s horrible decisions is “Apple bad”? OS flame wars really haven’t gotten less ridiculous in the past decades…
I was making a sarcastic response to the comment above mine and its chain, which devolved mindlessly into “Apple bad” as things tend to when Apple is mentioned.
No it’s that Linux is good
Apple is not blameless but they are a shit-ton better than Microsoft. I have to have M$ for a few work apps but I’m primarily MacOS for desktop and Linux for everything server-side. I avoid M$ as much as possible.
I agree. But everyone acts like Apple’s shit doesn’t stink.
Don’t forget the fact they’re locked onto luxury hardware, and you can’t build your own flavor for it. Even worse is, notebook manufacturers copied them so much there’s less variations among them. I was looking for some “subnotebook” as a potential portable PC, but I had like a few options (many of which would have included AliExpress junk), but there’s an endless supply of same-looking 14-16" ones, that are thin (“real” portability according to techbros), lightweight, “desktop replacements”, and run at a constant 95°C.
Im cryin over here, honest injun
All I want from an Os is to launch my programs of choice and not suck up my battery running unnecessary junk I couldn’t care less about.
The worst part is that Windows can do that, but Microsoft insists on enshittifying it. Like Windows 11 isn’t that terrible if it wasn’t for all of the data collection and advertisements and other shit.
I miss the Windows 7 days where you could download a stripped down ISO that was just the OS. It launched your programs of choice and didn’t suck up your battery running unnecessary junk.
Last week, I went to a friend’s house and asked to use her computer, which is still a core 2 duo with 2gb of ram and an hdd, running win7. I was a bit surprised to see her family having it as their only computer, but more surprised to see how fast it was. I expected to have the most laggish experience of my life, but it was… smooth. I’ve used machines with much modern low end cpus, more ram and ssds that performed much worse than that on win10. The enshittification is real.
Yup. I can say for sure that SSDs were certainly a game changer, but now we have systems with like 10x the processing power that operate at the same speeds because the power has been spent on poorly optimized code and bloatware.
Sigh… I’m going to have to start fucking around with Linux, aren’t I?
Yeah, the signs are starting to manifest. You will embrace the penguin at some point to get what you desire.
it isn’t a nightmare for them. they will be fine. they normalize everything they do
Yeah like I hate Microsoft, I am migrating to Linux, and the things I read about recall were pretty fucking horrifying to me. At the end of the day though the general public doesn’t give two shits about tech other than it works out of the box.
I use Arch since 2009 (BTW), but I think I’m planted in reality enough to know that the average user not only doesn’t care, hasn’t even heard about it. This will not even move the needle regarding usage.
Absolutely, the only thing that will ever move the needle significantly is if the average user walks into a store and comes out with a system that has linux already installed.
I’m telling everyone I know it’s time to move to Linux, or worst case Mac.
Mac is not better in any circumstance. Except maybe power efficiency but I doubt that’s going to last for long.
MacOS is a highly mature, stable, and user-friendly OS that, at least for now, Apple does not meddle with in the same ways that MS has been doing with Windows. It has its problems, yes, but to say “any circumstance” is extreme. I don’t like or agree with everything that Apple has done to MacOS but at least Apple isn’t actively trashing it into the ground with forced bloat, ads, malware, etc like MS is doing.
They are definitely are starting to trash it with ads for their own services, user hostile behavior/dark patterns (try turning off Bluetooth and applying a software update, it will be magically back on), and have ruined the UI slowly turning it in to iOS.
I have used a Mac since 2007 (almost exclusively for work) and many of Apple’s services during that time. I have not experienced any ads as you describe. As for Bluetooth magically turning back on after a software update, of course I do not know for certain, but that screams incompetence more than it screams intent. Apple most definitely has problems (where they build their hardware, policies they tried to enact and then backtracked, etc). And I’m not advocating for them like I am for Linux and other open source solutions. But if a normal user doesn’t want to deal with some of the lingering complexities that Linux still has (which is a dwindling number), then a Mac is a relatively viable alternative and it does not come anywhere near as close to the privacy nightmare that Microsoft has become.
I am not tribal at all with respect to any of these entities. I have used all three OSes for the better part of 25 years. I have watched the ebbs and flows of Microsoft, Apple, Adobe, Canonical, Red Hat, and various FOSS solutions such as Linux, for a very long time. And I have had a front row seat seeing Apple’s mistakes, Microsoft’s mistakes, Canonical’s mistakes, and so forth. And I feel I can judge with some semblance of realism and objectivity – Microsoft has failed so hard with Recall and they are so out of touch with what users want, they deserve every bit of ire they are getting, and they deserve to have their market share diminish because of it. Aside from perhaps Google, and now Adobe, I haven’t seen a technology company be so blatantly and willfully aggressive (and one could say, stupid) when it comes to these actions and topics.
The Bluetooth issue also happens on iOS, so I think it is an explicit choice, as Apple wants as many devices contributing to their Find My Network. It’s also the reason they changed control center on iOS to no longer turn off Wifi and Bluetooth, but to disconnect the current connections.
I’ve not run into this, but I also use Bluetooth on both devices (my work Mac and my personal phone) so it’s usually enabled. I also rely on Find My capabilities, so I suppose I’m their target audience. However, if they are purposefully re-enabling even after a user explicitly disables, then I agree completely that that is anti-user/anti-consumer/anti-privacy and they should be brought to task for it.
Lmao nice
You might want to add the /s tho, some people might not get it.
Vegan, European, CrossFit, Linux, born again
Seeing “European” is all you need to know this is rage bait
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How many times do people need to get fucked over by privatized black box software before they realize that FOSS has a point?
Just like people who are beholden to their politics or their religion, they’ll get fucked over as often as possible until they’re dead. The majority of people are tribal and sadly they see Microsoft, Google, Apple, etc as some kind of extension of their tribal identity.
Helping people to prevent their privacy from being completely screwed isn’t the same as feeling superior and smug about one’s choices, lifestyle, or where one lives. The sooner people understand the difference, the better.
But sure.
I also use Arch, btw…got any “witty” response to it?
I don’t know what this post means… but I want to learn.
Are you Vegan and moved to Europe and now do CrossFit?
That actually sounds like fun.
Especially the linux part.
Did you flee from a country that was awful and move to somewhere in Europe?
I have down-voted this because in a worst case scenario, they should move to a less appealing version of Linux, like Arch
(waiting for my down-votes)
Just think they might go from owning 98% of the market to 97% of the market. I am sure this is a nightmare for them.
You just wait and see. I’ll bet it goes all the way down to 96 and then they’ll really be sorry.
Year of the Linux destktop!
MS’s frequent missteps - win11, total recall, ai inescapable etc., - may just finally catch up with them. While they continue to devour game studios and shut them down for irrational reasons, who knows?
Stop being so negative and open your mind. Hell, MS did, you can use bash on the command line now. Times do change.
Gradual shifts can snowball into huge shifts. a few years ago Linux gaming only existed for the dedicated crowd, that somehow managed to make it work. Now for many it is no different from their Windows experience for most games, sometimes even better.
Think of it like bubbles pressing against each other. It matters not only how much pressure your own bubble has, but also how much pressure the other bubbles have in finding the equilibrium. The Windows bubble isn’t only weakening itself, the Linux bubble is getting stronger and stronger
For me, gaming was the one thing holding me back from really adopting Linux. When I got a PS5, I felt the time was right to make the switch, but I’ve been pleasantly surprised to find pretty much my whole Steam library works fine on Linux. VR still doesn’t work for me, but it seems to be getting there.
There is still a lot of googling and frustration involved in using and maintaining it, but I’m slowly learning through exposure. There is nothing I want to do on a PC any more that I need windows for. If the auto update stuff worked better, I’d probably recommend it to everyone. But I’ve tried both Mint and Ubuntu and the software updater constantly runs into issues very quickly after install. I’m guessing because of all the different ways to install software, but I can’t understand why it doesn’t just apt update/upgrade behind the scenes because that seems to work just fine.
I have a Blue-Build based custom distro (not many customisations tbh), that I’m planning to ship for my sister as well as me. So far, updates have been painless because it’s just one base image overwriting the other. I have a feeling that that’s where Linux distros in general is headed. I can imagine Bazzite being just right for you if you’re into gaming.
Primarily I use my Linux box for development, but I do like to game on the PC from time to time. And then also I like to connect to oculus for SteamVR. I haven’t been able to do that since I got off windows. Yeah, I could dual boot or whatever, but I just don’t want to.
I’ll look into Bazzite because maybe I can move my kids’ computer to Linux as well. They do nothing but game/discord on theirs.
i assume you mean that sarcastically but that is a nightmare for them and every bit of lost marketshare makes it easier to lose more
Hey, if it makes some SVP not get their quarterly bonus then maybe we’ll see a marginal change for sex months! Maybe!
Microsoft: oh no we might loose 0.0000001% of users, it doesn’t matter since we can shove our software down people throats
dumb fucking corporations will still line their pockets with money.
Stallman just keeps being right*
*About software freedom
lol, yeah that’s an important asterisk for sure!
and here i am, happy that i could buy a notebook for 200 bucks less w.o. a windows preinstalled on it, enjoying my beginner friendly linux distro.
just wondering, who’s offering discounts and what’d you end up with? Thanks!
I usually buy refurbished Thinkpads with a year of warranty. There are at least two resellers for those in Germany that I know of, AfB and Lapstore.
TY
Linux!: Had set It up years ago when it was a slog. Came back recently after Windows did this— and it was so much easier.
Work? Yes. The comfort of knowing I’ve put off for one more day the tech ubergods carving my life open? Also yes.
The struggle is real for M$ - recall is a Security Incident waiting to happen.
Both Apple and Microsoft are two sides of the same coin…
One went left, the other went right, both going to the same location…
The only thing to consider is how you prefer to travel and how quickly you want to arrive…
So true!
I built a kit car, painted a penguin on the side, and forgot to include the telemetry module. Oops.
I think I’ll travel somewhere else.
Agreed
Microsoft and Apple are not the only choices
I do think that the concept of recall is very interesting, I want to explore a FOSS version where you have complete ownership of your data in a secure manner
Yeah the concept is pretty damn cool. It’s just horrifying to have a company own and control that data. I suspect this is like Xbox One launch disaster in 2013, in which Microsoft initially required all consoles to have an always-online connection. People rebelled, but today and certainly on our current trajectory, it now looks like Microsoft was just a little ahead of the curve. I think people will eventually become a lot more comfortable with companies owning their data because the benefits will be so enormous. I’m not happy about that future, but I think I understand it.
It seems to me that we’ve reached a crossroads. I’ve been very aware of the data mining, garden walls, data trading, privacy violations, security issues, ownership issues, etc. - for roughly 30 years. I regularly make the choice to be exploited for the benefits I extract, largely because the data they’ve gotten from me thus far I don’t highly value. But the necessity to develop strategies to keep the devil’s bargain beneficial has reached a fevered pitch. I want to train my own AI and public AIs. I want to explore the vast higher dimensional semantic spaces of generative models without API charges. APIs are vanishing as we speak, anyway, companies fearful of their data being extracted without compensation. Can’t really sit on the Open/Closed fence anymore.
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<img alt="" src="https://midwest.social/pictrs/image/70f2fc28-19ec-494a-93e7-2c4b5c3c890c.jpeg"> Or this guy, and his delicious toenails.
Look, Stallman may be a creep who women have to actively make excuses to avoid, but Torvalds sometimes gets sweary about subjects he’s passionate about in developer threads. Both sides are the same!
I forgot what I was saying. Anyway
Pfffttt, Microsoft has been there, done this, and got a whole closet full of tee shirts for stuff like this many times over the years. In the end the users don’t care and can’t stop it. And they are, by in large, too lazy to change to something else to completely avoid it.
It hasn’t ever affected the bottom line enough to matter to them. They will just pull this
bugfeature and wait for a better day. Or perhaps they will figure out a way to introduce it piecemeal to disguise it better.My problem is my work provided pc. Will I know when they enable this?
Ideally i’ll resign before that happens.
Most male computer uses watch porn and would not want an AI to log that. Many women find porn sickening and don’t understand it and will never understand male urges that result in watching it. The fact that this got into a finished product tells you a lot about Microsoft’s corporate culture.
No one working there really cares about the company enough to bring up uncomfortable issues, they are all there just to get their paycheck and actual outcomes be damned. The culture their must be toxic for this product to have been put into a product enabled by default.
If this was a top-down decision and there was no input by others into it, it leads to questions over whether this feature was forced to be included by the government, which can easily require corporations to do anything and then issue gag orders and whether it was some sort of test to see how much intrusive spying bullshit that regular consumers will tolerate now. If this was a feature that was forced into the product, the plan may have been to turn it off by default after negative feedback, but then just keep it in the program for when governments want to turn it on. Governments may have realized it in any capacity such a terrible feature would result in outrage and may have thought this was the path of least resistance, like saying “Would you like to eat a bowl of shit? No, okay, we’ll just give you these brussel sprouts”
Excellent point. We saw exactly the same phenomenon play out with Google and Gemini. The tool created racially diverse Nazis. Even a few minutes with the tool revealed major issues. There must have been hundreds of people who witnessed the slow moving train crash in realtime, but were either unwilling or unable to speak out. I think these companies have clearly cultivated a hierarchical culture of fear and intimidation. I recently left a job in which my manager was ex-Google. The stories she would tell were appalling. Her command-and-control style was, frankly, disgusting. She permitted zero critical feedback or discussion. It was her way or “fuck off.” I found that very instructive as to how these companies have morphed into shells of their formers selves. I’m not bullish on the future of these companies. They’re coasting very well on the fumes of their historical successes, and I think their demise is all but assured.
lol, you’re the only one who liked my post apparently. everyone else hates it!
people hated that post too 😭
I dont hate your original post, its just somewhat confusing and disjointed.
Could you expand on your first paragraph? I feel like I’m missing context there especially to connect the first and second sentence.
Also, what is your overall point?
The point of the first two sentences is that because there is a large gender divide on whether porn is acceptable, a lot of times men and women don’t discuss porn because the subject will lead to conflict. This isn’t true of all members of both genders. Since corporations often have a mix of genders, bringing up the topic of porn and how a feature could alienate porn viewers would be an uncomfortable topic that would be easier to avoid because men and women find the topic uncomfortable often for different reasons. In Microsoft’s case, it seems like no one at Microsoft brought up how male porn watchers might not like AI watching their pornhub history and recording it to a file, despite it seeming like it would be an obvious concern to any male at Microsoft who watches porn, and likely many do. These means their corporate culture is so selfish on their own career protection and focused on not offending others that they let a really bad feature that many hate go to market instead of talking openly how this would be a disaster out of fear that it could cause workplace conflict.
So instead of saving millions of dollars in costs and damage to the brand, everyone at Microsoft aware of this problem just said nothing. That’s a terrible corporate culture. If a product isn’t going to work, even uncomfortable discussions should be had if it saves millions.
My point overall was that it’s shocking this made it into the product. It’s such a bad idea for a feature on multiple levels, that it seems like employees did not openly talk about this.
My other point was that if Microsoft employees didn’t drop the ball, then this feature may have been forced into the project by a government order of some kind, which can and does happen in closed source software. Although hidden backdoors are often secret, the government could equally compel a large unlocked window at the front be added as well.
There needs to be a way to have an inclusive corporate culture that celebrates cultures and backgrounds but also allows brutal honesty about products without people being afraid of accidentally offending others or being too indifferent to the corporation’s success to speak up.
A lot of it probably relates to how often people are fired and how short tenures are with companies. If you have a short tenure with a company or are expecting to, does it matter if Company A does well instead of Company B or Company C? It probably doesn’t, and with social media capturing one wrong offensive faux paus for eternity (by which I mean until the planet becomes uninhabitable 300 years from now), workers have every incentive to let disasters like this go to market.
I am judging Microsoft employees but likely would have said nothing if I were there too. With all the layoffs in tech, why risk it to say something controversial? Even my initial post on this got down-voted into the depths of an abyss just for mentioning that men and women see pornography in different ways sometimes, which should hardly be controversial. I don’t know whether the votes were from men or women, but actually I imagine more women than men down-voted it, and even this guess will probably lead to additional down-votes.
I dislike people like Elon Musk for his cruelty towards transgender people (despite his admirable intelligence), and I dislike Donald Trump for his cruelty towards those who are different in any way, but I also feel like people should be able to have discussions about actual uncomfortable subjects without it being automatically offensive. The fact I was so heavily down-voted immediately tends to illustrate my point.
Do people outside of tech care?
They really should
But they also really don’t care, they’ll just sit back, grin, and bear it. Everyone is too scared of the unknown to do anything different.
<img alt="" src="https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2pnCYSADJ9g/T5VNwPYTiCI/AAAAAAAAW5w/uh5Ea4RM7Cg/s1600/04.jpg">.
Well, psychology has taught me that until ‘there’ comfort bubble pops nothing will change, despite at least 10% of people are screaming about it.
No, unfortunately
Microsoft has done nothing to earn any good will or trust. Everything seems to spite the user or just harvesting maximum user data.
Buy a mac or support steamOS adoption or just get a linux distro. This will drive the improvement of nontechnical consumer GNU/Linux
I cant believe im actually supporting the sentence “buy a mac” but its far far better than what ever microsoft is doing, and if you arent computer literate enough to install linux, its a decent alternative to windows.
I can’t believe I’m actually upvoting that statement… coming from a former windows nerd (until 7).
Apple is going to start cramming their AI the throat of all users in the next year or two as well.
Just… No.
Nah thanks
Probably not only for Mucroshit. The industry as a whole is intrusive. Soon there won’t be a single place to run to between our home, our place of work, and everything in between. Churches, parks, roads everything is just micro spying on us constantly.
I finally switched to Linux Mint a week ago. I’ve just had enough of Microsoft and I couldn’t think of any more reasons why I shouldn’t switch.
I’ve got Libre Office for all my productivity needs. All my Steam games work under Linux. My VPN works just fine. Firefox for web browsing. Thunderbird for email. And Wine to run those 1-2 Windows programs that I just can’t do without.
You might try OnlyOffice 😄
Hey, I replace LibreOffice on my Linux installs every time with OnlyOffice. I don’t really need a full up office suite anymore. And I find OnlyOffice is a bit simpler and easier to use. But it’s not for everybody.
Plus, it keeps me away from trusting Google Docs…
There’s no reason to run Windows unless there’s specific software that won’t run in a virtual highly contained environment of Windows within Linux.
Friends don’t let friends use windows.
vpn with network manager is amazing. All my client’s vpn solutions just work. On windows I needed 5-6 different vpn clients that bluescreen each other on Linux I need zero proprietary software.
Wireguard with systemd is even better. You set it up and then literally never touch it again.
TL;DR:
Windows Recall does NOT require NPU hardware to run. Currently Recall has been tested on Windows 11 with only a CPU and it seems to be fully operational. Of course performance is not as good as with an NPU. I believe Microsoft will try to push AI to local computing by only enabling on computers with NPUs to begin with. In the future it will most likely be able to be enabled on PCs which does not have an NPU but with a warning of bad performance in front of it.
In the future most CPU’s will prolly have an NPU built in. We already seeing it with ryzen
The switch to Linux will have to come from the bottom up. Corporations will NOT switch until Microsoft costs them serious money.
I don’t want to be the guy that always says Linux, but… …Linux
It is okay to be the person that always recommends Linux, especially if you are a kind person with the patience to explain things to people in approachable terms (and you don’t just scream at people SOMEBODY ALREADY ASKED THIS QUESTION USE SEARCH whenever a newbie walks in the door and asks the obvious questions a newbie would ask).
Now is the time, Linux is pulled up out front waiting to pick us up (with bags packed) and Microsoft is loudly shitting the bed upstairs, NOW is the time to walk straight out the front door, jump in the car with Linux and never look back. We owe it to Microsoft’s long relationship with consumers to leave Microsoft sitting confused on the porcelain throne wondering why they were abandoned and where all the toilet paper is (we are the toilet paper in this metaphor).
Most people aren’t going to bother when the specific software they want to use aren’t supported.
Microsoft has been relying on that for >20 years now and it’s starting to show signs of strain.
I’ve heard this before.
So you don’t think there’s a straw breaking the camel’s back?
I think people are happy to eat shit. They’ll complain about it, sure. But they’ll slurp it up like ice cream.
Otherwise, MTX heavy games wouldn’t be rewarded so heavily.
Early on, you’ll see some movement. Some people will transfer to Linux - most will go back. A bunch of outraged threads.
But it will die down. People will just accept it. They always do. They always will.
I understand the frustration and cynicism that comes from wanting something to happen and waiting a good stretch of your life for it to do so but I am sorry, this is not reflective of reality.
Don’t mistake your own fatigue for the behavior of people in general.
Support for software on Linux or Wine is now orders of magnitude more complete and functional than it was 5-10 years ago. There are fundamental changes going on, just because we operated in a paradigm that suffocated the possibility of Linux adoption in the past doesn’t mean that paradigm will continue indefinitely.
There is a difference between being permanently powerless and being powerless under a certain arrangement of forces and actors.
We are entering a period of the status quo being smashed for better or worse in almost every dimension of our lives, what was likely to happen in the past 20 years does not reliably predict what is likely to happen in the next 20 years.
There is actually a true opening for Linux here in a way there never has been.
Well they said the same about AI and at some point it became true enough to be a problem
I’m trying to see a correlation.
True but there is less and less stuff that you cannot do properly on linux.
I mean… how big really is the category of software tasks that you can’t properly do on Linux in 2024? I feel like it is getting to the point where you do genuinely have to be specific about what Linux can’t do that is a dealbreaker for you rather than just falling back on “Linux can’t do what people need to do” as a general criticism of it.
Windows can’t do what people need it to do, and it fails to do so while sucking up your private data (which if you work at a business with confidential information IS a dealbreaker). At least when Linux fails it usually isn’t simultaneously violating the IT security structure of your organization….
The funny thing is businesses and government entities can’t even claim with a straight face that they can trust Microsoft to adhere to the meager insufficient data privacy laws that do exist when there is zero evidence Microsoft would behave that way based on the track record even if the financial penalties for failing to do so were actually real to the ruling class and not just theoretical thought experiments that involve a slap on the wrist or more like a light tickling with a feather on the nose.
Oh i totally agree with you. I have a feeling that the only real obstacle on the way out from windows is proprietary software, especially adobe and some custom apps for specific hardware.
I don’t understand this approach, if you don’t want to answer, just don’t answer. Why would you waste time writing that you won’t answer?
I will not answer this. Just search.
I thought you were a search engine.
HISTTIMEFORMAT="%d/%m/%y %T "
Then
history | grep -i “09/06/2024”
Yeah but there’s like 20 of them, and many are half-baked. How is a n00b to choose one?
Ubuntu is fine for all uses, and so are some of the others
Not sure about that. They try to get you to sign up for services, and they deliberately broke something with installing from certain file types.
It’s still perfectly functional and easy to use, just say no if they ask you to sign up to a service, if you come from windows you’ll ve surprised of how easy it is to dismiss those offers
Um… I actually want this feature. Maybe if its FOSS and I own the data. But the idea is amazing.
It’s like some of the Pokemon games where it tells you what you did. Seriously amazing, but yeah needs to be FOSS and secure.
Then be able to query it. That would be amazing.
Borrowing from something I saw elsewhere: Set up a task / cron job / whatever it is on your OS that takes a full screenshot every minute and then sends it to Microsoft's AI team.
Or save it to a drive or something, I'm not the boss here. And neither is Microsoft.
What would you use this feature for?
It takes images of your screen and stores it with context and then you can query it. Images, text, graphs, etc.
“Hey, I was working on an automation for my home assistant and it stopped working. I had an automation that worked about 6 months ago. Can you pull that automation up and show me”
“My boss showed me a slide about a month ago talking about the TPS report, can you pull that up and show me that slide deck?”
The use case is endless.
Screencap and screencapture programs have existed forever, just use any, it’s not a new idea
I think you misunderstand what Recall actually does. It takes images of your screen and then you can query it. Images, text, graphs, etc.
“Hey, I was working on an automation for my home assistant and it stopped working. I had an automation that worked about 6 months ago. Can you pull that automation up and show me”
“My boss showed me a slide about a month ago talking about the TPS report, can you pull that up and show me that slide deck?”
The use case is endless.
Oh my… Ok right I didn’t realize the extent of it. It’s a total nightmare
Well, supposedly the data is stored locally. Like I said. It’s a good idea. I wouldn’t mind a FOSS version.
you can use O&O shutup10++ to disable recall now
The fact that we need a third party program to make our computer respect our privacy should say it all for Windows.
You still need to configure things in every linux distro to make it work. And apple doesn’t allow you to configure anything that matters at all
You know what would be a nice thing to put into windows?
A fucking decent way to search for files.
Also, grep and tail, as implemented in Linux. It’s 2024 and there’s no native equivalent to
tail -f *.log. How embarrassing.Or do you mean in cmd not powershell?
IME this doesn’t work for multiple files. Not nearly as well as tail -f *.
Plenty of times I’m troubleshooting something without knowing which log file I should pay attention to. So watching everything happen in realtime with the error helps, a ton.
Windows Search used to be awesome, and then they decided to over-complicate it.
I distinctly remember that once it has indexed everything, it was pretty fast, yeah. Back in the 00s anyway
I doubt the majority of MS users need to tail a log file. And of those of us that do, how many don’t know that Notepad++ does it?
File search is really awful on windows for no reason at all. Your complaints about commandline utilities is not accurate though. Windows has native powershell equivalents to both
grepandtail. You useSelect-Stringinstead ofgrepandGet-Content -Waitinstead oftail.IME
Get-Contentdoesn’t work for multiple files. Unless maybe I put it in a foreach loop or something. But that’s way more keystrokes thentail -f *Nobody ever accused powershell of being concise. Its uses a completely different philosophy, object oriented rather than string based. This makes powershell nicer to write scripts in but also makes it worse at bash style one-liner commands.
get listary it’s freemium (i use free version forever and it works fine) you can search by double tapping control and it instantly gives you the files you search for
Get everything: www.voidtools.com (the alpha version can also index the content of files). It’s search is instant. As in < 1 second for any file on any of your harddisks (even ones not connected right now).
For base linux cmdline tools I just install Git for Windows it includes tail, sed, grep, tee, iconv, less, scp and tons more. I need git anyways so win-win.
I do small business support. Everytime I do a windows install I do a ninite install of a bunch of things. Everything is always in the set. The fucntionality should have been in windows since NTFS was introduced
Yeah, even XP had Rover, the search dog.
Ninite and Chocolatey helps a bit. But then you get to the point where there is no automation for a start menu entry for some packages. It’s a bit of a mess.
A colleague installed Python from the MS Store on Windows 11 it messed up all python software, PyCharm, the other python versions and some file associations. Quite a mess.
https://superuser.com/questions/12943/how-do-i-replace-the-stupid-windows-xp-dog-assistance-search-with-the-classic-wi /s
Have you heard of WSL?
As someone who does product dev support, unfortunately I have.
.
You can do a commandline “dir /s *.log” to search an entire directory it works better than the normal file search generally. Unless I misunderstand what you’re asking.
-ffollows the file so you can see updates as they come in to the bottom of the file. I wasn’t aware this worked with globs, but that’s neat.Is that what
/sdoes? I haven’t used Windows in years.Oh, perhaps not. I may’ve just understood how you’re using the search. /s is just a straight search if the directory, I don’t know that it can be used to generate dynamic results like that. Go figure.
Isn’t that one of the things this does? It was in the advert wasn’t it?
As much as I liked Visual Studio, its privacy intrusiveness was my final straw.
Man, there is a LOT of people in this thread hoping to normalize this, or pretend it will happen anyway, or that it’s ‘not really a PR disaster’, or that people will ignore it, or-
Go make your money elsewhere, christ.
OH, it was been a long time coming seeing this type of headline again, it’s…glorius!
Microsoft is most years a #1 and sometimes a #2 Funder of: Rust, Python, and Linux. Are those destined for an E^3 “rug pull” too? Will it ever stop this kind of behavior, consistently conforming our behavior to itself with the money and industry position it leverages?
Don’t forget in calculating that industry position that OpenAI is now able to contract to the DoD for offensive capability.
Linux is not dependent on money, they have no influence over it.
While the influence is much smaller than with windows or apple, it’s still there. Linux is hardened against capitalism, but if we start believing that it has no influence we set ourselves up for Debian Pro+ in the future. Just because it’s good now doesn’t mean it capitalism can’t shit all over it faster than we believe possible…
This. “Embrace. Extend. Extinguish.” has been Microsoft’s mantra for a long time, now. Folks need to recognize the signs that their favorite things are being targeted before they get ruined.
Oh you sweet innocent. Major distros like Ubuntu and RedHat already are peddling open source AI for their enterprise customers.
Debian Pro+ is here and has been for a while…
But Debian still stands, and is not going anywhere.
So does Slack. But while they are 2 of the foundational distros, neither is the first go to choice of the average user. Neither distro caters to the mainstream user. If you are choosing either of those two distros, you are definitely old school and/or are looking for a solution to problem that is perhaps more of an edge case.
Gamers will literally install root kits on their PCs just because an update pop up tells them to. They really don’t care lol.
Companies and their legal departments do care though, and that’s where the big money lies for Microsoft when it comes to Windows
Microsoft has already taken a step back: Microsoft implements drastic changes to Recall after criticism
Yeah bur for the non tech oriented user it’s still difficult . Most devices bought come with OEM install.
Even for a regular user it’s going to sound like There is a virus that reads and remembers everything on your computer but you can turn it off and trust us it would be off.
Even for PCs that come with Windows preinstalled, there’s still the need to set it up at the first start (account, privacy and such), so I think that the option to enable Recall will be there.
And no one is going to trust them on this. They’ve burned that bridge.
Oh, the bridge will be rebuilt soon. People forget easily.
Or are trapped in their ecosystem, some never forget
I guess if you want to verify the truth of this statement, look at Unity. They walked back their per-install system, but the indie community still moved away from them because it seemed clear they might try to do that at some point in the future.
Who needs trust when you have a monopoly.
It’s what they should have done from the beginning, there must be a horde of MSFT employees holding back the urge of saying “told you so” to their boss right now lol
🤣
I really hope the damage is done. They need to be knocked down a peg. This all should have been done first. Whoever thought this was a good idea is horrible.
Outside of the “Microsoft bad” comments, this is a prime example of why big tech companies need to stop promoting AI leads to a position where they are able to have influence over initiatives outside of AI.
The worst thing to happen to basically every product/service in tech right now is AI. It’s made Google unreliable in the eyes of normal people for the first time in decades, it’s destroying trust in Amazon content across reviews and Kindle, it’s adding features to Facebook that no one ever wanted, etc.
And the annoying thing is, this tech can be exceptionally useful when it’s actually been implemented thoughtfully.
Effortlessly cleaning up audio recordings using AI tooling is incredible, for example. There are audio recordings that I’ve been able to make sound great that previously would’ve required me to make some calls and ask for a bunch of re-recordings and added days of delays to a project.
AI in image recognition to vastly speed up medical imaging diagnosis, or analysing lab work? Amazing. Asking unpaid medical students to laboriously pore over thousands of images sounds like a nightmare.
Better offline translation? Sign me the fuck up.
Image description for the visually impaired, like my sister? Genuinely life changing. A lot of content online isn’t properly tagged, or has zero attention placed on accessibility.
The list goes on. Unfortunately, with big tech being as they are, their first thoughts turn to “which implementations of AI will aid us the most in scraping userdata and showing ads?”
Don’t forget making sure the peons can squeeze out more productivity for the 1%.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/200a6cad-b8d4-42eb-95fa-93e2fd8e783c.jpeg">
Wait what has the Amazon done with kindle and ai ?
There have been several instances where people have released ebooks that are fully AI generated, and are basically scams with no real content or information.
Microsoft lost my trust a long time ago. For the last 10-15 years, my only relationship with them is, “how much sh*t am I willing to put up with before I switch to something else?”
And CoPilot/Recall was the breaking point.
It’s not gonna affect their bottom line though. Microsoft are doing it because they know they can get away with it and drag the bar so low that they’d make RealNetworks circa 1999 look like privacy-respecting saints.
Your average Joe cannot afford the second mortgage needed to finance a MacBook purchase, and they’d have an aneurysm if presented with a Linux terminal.
And don’t even get me started on business and professional use. Many businesses rely on proprietary or even bespoke software that doesn’t run well, sometimes not even at all on Linux. Cheap (even FOSS) alternatives are often dogshit. And before you dispute me on that fact, can you name one web designer that would use Affinity Photo, GIMP or PDN over Photoshop? Or could you name one person that prefer AbiWord, OpenOffice or LibreOffice to Microsoft Word?
PC Gaming is one of those use-cases that has evolved by leaps and bounds… until you realize just how many multiplayer games rely on a form of anticheat. Many of these solutions are straight-up incompatible with Linux.