Patrick Breyer and Pirate Party lose EU Parliament seats
(stackdiary.com)
from skilledtothegills@lemmy.world to technology@lemmy.world on 10 Jun 09:06
https://lemmy.world/post/16374600
from skilledtothegills@lemmy.world to technology@lemmy.world on 10 Jun 09:06
https://lemmy.world/post/16374600
Patrick Breyer, a staunch defender of digital rights, laments the Pirate Party’s exit from the EU Parliament as a blow to online privacy.
threaded - newest
Fuck, this is seriously bad news
I always expected us to never address our ecological destruction or climate change in any meaningful way, and instead devolve into some techno-feudalist, fascist dystopia before the civilisation collapses into a death spiral… But man… I’ve never wanted to be wrong more in my entire life.
Watching the EU regress in unison, back down the auth path, is not how I expected it would go down.
“Cyberpunk was a warning, not an aspiration.” – Mike Pondsmith
Kinda alarmist tone.
I always expected for the irrational opinion of people in many Western countries that they can get anything by voting for it to meet the hard cold reality, but it never was anything like “end of the world”.
I’m hopeful. A certain kind of evil people have felt their power and are slowly becoming complacent, which means that the European societies will get a shot at getting rid of them, for the time being. And then there will be a dawn after this sunset.
Though that “allowing the snake to raise its head” thing should be done carefully, so that you’d still be alive when the opportunity to crush that head arises.
I say we bring as many modern day royalty with us as possible
I was considering voting for the pirate party, but they polled at less than 5% in France and it was not a useful vote, which was evidently needed.
I still voted for them, because I could.
And I’m sick of the useful vote thing, I did it last time in 2022 against Le Pen and all I got was a lousy President.
Better a lousy president than a fascist, hell, boring politicians is what we should aim for!
.
Strategic voting is what you’re stuck doing depending on your local electoral process.
She’s going to become president in 2024, she could have become president in 2022 instead.
If a party won’t fix the serious issue to let me also vote for who I want, they’re not entitled to my vote.
You can deny the reality of the electoral system you’re stuck with all you want, at the end of the day you’re probably one of the people that will end up suffering the most because of it.
Voting for a party I don’t want is also suffering, though I doubt you’d believe that. Keeping the main parties in power via a rigged system ain’t ending this catch 22 cycle.
I don’t know who’s worse, the person making people suffer or the person who could have prevented it doing nothing out of principle?
Because that’s exactly what people are doing by letting the right win by refusing to be strategic. Your opponent will 100% act strategically.
It is my hope that greater political diversity will prevent more suffering in the long run by governments better representing the people.
It’s very comfortable to blame others if your political opponents get into power. If you don’t have another suggestion I can at least leave you with the small comfort that this bad person won’t vote for the main party you dislike the most out of spite.
Ok so let people suffer now to prevent suffering in the future?
How many people?
For how long in the future are we looking?
You think as an opponent to Le Pen you’re not one of those who will suffer?
I’m starting to believe that the Russian trolls are now focusing on the French election.
Tu parles français au moins?
Lucky for you I’m not French. I just oppose tactical voting in favor of voting in someone who may have a chance of removing the need for tactical voting.
I don’t know how long it will take and I don’t know which paths actually leads to the least amount of suffered in the short term. I just know it needs to change.
Have fun dealing with your fascist government, I hope you’ll remember these comments while you’re being repressed.
No she isn’t? Macron is president until the next French presidential election in 2027.
Prolly their confusion is that Macron called for new elections, but unlike some parliamentary governments Macron isn’t selected by parliament.
I mean yes, Macron was dumb on this one, but he isn’t as dumb as that
Don’t expect a Le Pencil supporter to understand reason.
I am not a supporter, I just find very stupid to postpone the inevitable while proposing… nothing better?
Yes, I misunderstood how the system works in France.
both macron and lepen are two corrupted fascists tricking you like a chicken into choosing a side and voting for them instead of “wasting your vote”
Yeah, the greens had a risk of not getting 5% so it was much more worthwhile to vote for them.
You should be able to vote for both… 😮💨
There may be even better voting systems but 3-2-1 would be a nice change. This way strategic voting gets at least somewhat mitigated and might force people to actually invest some time and look at the agenda of some other parties too because they have to vote for 3 parties.
There are voting systems that completely prevent the need for tactical voting (e.g. instant-runoff voting, aka alternative vote) but if the system still trends towards having two main parties then not much has really changed.
A bigger issue is that a single candidate/party is not very good at representing an area in comparison to having more (3, 5, ideally more). If people vote 80% A and 20% B and A gets the single candidate then 20% are misrepresented. With 5 candidates then that could be split 4 to A and 1 to B, a perfect representation.
Eh, I’d much rather vote for a party that aligns with my values but might not get a seat, in hopes it will inspire more people to do so next time around.
Vote your conscience while you can. I’m pretty much stuck voting for slightly left of center candidates (in the US) because the opposition is to the right of Kim Jong Un depending on the issue.
You trust polls?
And I was right to; pirate party got less than 1% of votes, also due to the fact they couldn’t afford to have their voting paper in most places.
Thanks for being part of the self-fulfilling prophecy, I guess.
Where do you live that you can print your own ballot?
France. The parties have to pay the government if they want their ballot already present at the election place. As a citizen, you may also bring any ballot you want (within some very reasonable rules), so the smaller parties instruct you to print your own to save on costs.
OMG. Here in Germany you sometimes get an entire booklet of ballot papers, if necessary. You wouldn’t even be allowed to bring your own ballot. Otherwise, one could secretly mark their own ballot in some way, thereby undermining the secrecy of the vote.
Yeah, this is one of the seasons the Pirate party is pushing for a unique ballot, because the current format is really unfavorable towards small parties that don’t have the means to print the ballots among other things
Polls are problematic in that they reinforce their own predictions. It’s especially frustrating in recent years when you’re bombarded with them even when there’s no election in sight. Problem is, governing parties are usually busy governing while populists are campaigning 24/7. Media has made a huge effort to reinforce the trend and get people used to living in a far right era. Polls are unhelpful and destort democracy to a dangerous degree.
I would have voted for the Pirate Party if there was a ballot for them.
Didn’t print it beforehand so I couldn’t.
Last time I printed my own ballot they just didn’t count it and my vote was considered invalid. Even though I had the exact size required by regulations…
Wait, am I missing something here? Are there countries where you don’t have all options on the ballot, or at least an empty space?
Edit: Saw your explanation in another comment. Wouldn’t having to bring your own ballot also invalidate voting secrecy, since bringing your own indicates that you most likely intent to vote for an unlisted party (and, in reverse, anyone using the regular ballot voting for a party that’s listed)?
It affects secrecy a bit but you still have to take at least two different ballots into the voting booth. Obviously you are bringing your own ballot and taking one already printed so it’s not really a secret.
Also there was taped garbage bags in the voting booth so that people can throw away their discarded ballots but that’s also a great way to show what every else has been voting before me…
I still think our voting system is quite ok but there are definitely flaws.
Concerning your edit, not sure about other countries, but I can speak about the process in France.
We get (normally) ballots with the programs in the mail before the elections, so we can also bring ballots from there. Then the way it works when voting is
So there’s not really a way to definitely know you’re voting for an unlisted candidate here.
Same… I hate having to vote useful
God fucking damn it
I voted for him. Sad to see him leave. It doesn’t seem like we have many advocates for digital privacy in the parliament.
e: typo
Die Linke voted similarly on many issues to the Pirate Party.
Sad times.
and unfortunately czech pirate representatives dropped from three to one :(
These results are just a drop in the bucket in relation to the grim state of German election results and overall societal discourse.
There’s not much room for optimism right now. Very dark skies ahead and things may get much worse before they will become better.
Same in Belgium, how is this the new reality seemingly everywhere???
Mass propaganda and some reeeeeaaaaalllly stupid people.
MAGA has entered the chat.
Pretty much the same propaganda “package” is being used all over the world.
Governments work hard and spend billions of public money to try to stay in power, they spend these in modern and technological warfare too.
The parties in power are failing to address the problems ordinary people are facing. Problems like the excessive immigration of people from Asian countries, the insane housing prices, rising cost of living etc. People are looking for alternatives.
These extremists know exactly what the problems are and how to talk about them. They also know better to meet people where they are, like on social media. To most people who are ignorant of politics, these parties seem to solve all their problems.
And let’s be real, half the population is below average intelligence. Way too many people don’t realize or even worse, don’t care, about what these parties are really about.
I managed to convince my brother and a friend of mine to vote for them. This is really disappointing. Over half the votes in Germany were for right-wing parties this time, over 16% were for the right-wing-extremist party AFD. Germany really wants history to repeat itself ig.
But at least France is holding its hand this time! 🙃
lemmy.ml/post/16672524
Does the average voter just not care at all about anything actually important? What is even going on here?
We just had a vote for government officials along the EP vote. Less than 60% turned up which means the most common vote was a vote for nothing. The average voter doesn’t care.
At least voters who don’t turn up are harmless. If all the people who voted for EPP-affiliated parties just didn’t turn up instead, we’d face far fewer problems.
What a load of bullshit, Voters that don’t turn up are the most dangerous of them all, because it lowers the percentage and skews the votes. If 40% go voting and make their vote invalid, those 40% still get counted, meaning the percentage for other parties is overall lower.
Brexit in the UK happened because most didn’t vote, meaning a small percentage of voters had over-inflated influence.
More and more the average voter earns minimum wage, has to pay increasing rent, increasing food prices, has shit education, degrading public healthcare, etc… last thing on their mind is voting and when they do they follow what the (not independent at all) media feeds down their throats.
I wanted to vote for them, I did so last time, but they didn’t appear on the ballot in my country this time. Couldn’t vote for them…
I had somewhat hoped that my fellow countrymen in Germany would not fall for the obtuse populism of the right, but that is exactly what has happened.
I’m afraid there’s nothing left to counter this, because voters obviously no longer care about rational arguments and don’t even want to acknowledge the real problems of our time. They make it easy for themselves and just blame everything on illegal migration or whatever - just as the right-wingers tell them to do.
In this reality characterized by stupidity and false attributions of blame, it is hardly surprising that important but somewhat abstract topics such as data protection are no longer of interest to the masses. It’s enough to make you cry.
As an American, it’s really sad to see the EU fall into this trap.
The saddest thing about this is that the Europeans and especially the Germans should really know better. But no, all the lessons from our dark history seem to have been forgotten - or they are simply ignored so that one can once again live in the comfortable world of simple explanations where there is always some minority to blame.
<img alt="A friend sent me this image today…" src="https://programming.dev/pictrs/image/4f03b770-16bd-4657-a837-ba3005832f9e.png">
Tagesschau has a graph showing AFD being the highest % voted party all over eastern Germany and second highest voted nearly everywhere else, following CDU/CSU. You really only see green or red in the larger cities.
The second highest voted thing is mildly misleading because left parties are a lot more fractured, especially in EU elections. The afd could have 11% while 9 left wing partirs have 9.8% and be the most voted party, but that would be a better result than we have now with it being the second most voted.
The results are bad, but 16% is at least nowhere nesr a majority. I’m honestly more concerned about the CDU moving closer to the afd and still ending up with 30%, seems almost like many people don’t like the afd because they’ve been told afd bad, but still agree with much of their ideology.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/bdf95076-2b76-47fc-825c-1ddca9139130.png">
It’s not surprising though, the EU has been wanting to become the United States of Europe for a long time…
I would gladly vote left, I like social democracy, I don’t mind paying taxes for government services, what makes it impossible for me to vote left is that I completely and utterly disagree with the migration policies that have been in place.
They are insane, completely insane.
We need to enforce the EU borders and fundamentally change the asylum process, the current system encourage refugees to take extreme risks by crossing the sea in shit boats, the current system also encourage braindrain from poor countries preventing them from gettng the skilled workers they need to develop their economies.
Restricting the right of asylum will severely cut back on the human trafficing organization’s proftis and reduce the ammount of death and injury in a dangerous ocean crossing.
It will also allow us to sped less money supporting people here, and do much more for them in their own home countries.
I am sure I will get downvoted massively, but this is the explanation as to why I won’t vote left unless they show that they are serious at cutting migration.
I don’t understand how anyone can think that migration policy is the EU’s main problem. And I really don’t get why someone should vote for a party that does not share their own convictions because of EU migration policy.
Bait and switch.
Immigrants = bad. Just focus on immigrants being bad, while I line my own pockets and/or gather power while you are distracted.
But just remember: immigrants = bad!
there is good hint of xenophobia in your comment
you probably need to meet some people foreign of your country and learn they are humans just like you
tax rich people/companies
these are taking your money away for a good cause for everyone
That is fair, I can see how my comment might seem xenophobic to people who don’t know the real me.
I absolutely believe that the rich pay too little tax, it is a global problem, that has a veey simple solution, but extremely difficult execution.
Taxing the rich isn’t the be all end all solution, integration is, I am a Swede, and we have absolutely failed with integrating migrants. We see that with migrant gangs in Sweden.
I could write more, but this is not the forum for that discussion.
Talking like this is exactly why the right is on the rise. As soon as anyone mentions that “hey maybe unlimited migration isn’t working” they’re immediately labeled as racist and xenophobic.
This alienates a lot of people in the middle that like leftist ideas but don’t buy the immigration policies.
Pull effects aren’t real. Help eradicating the reasons why the people are fleeing in the first place if you want less refugees.
Not as if the EU would want that, though. There’s continents to exploit and money to be made, after all.
I partly agree, which is why I mentioned spending resources more effectively in the countries.
Pull effects are absolutely real, ignoring them is idiotic.
Pull effects have never been empirically shown. You’re repeating the right’s talking points.
Have they been empirically disproven?
You can’t prove a negative.
It’s an outdated model and not really taken seriopsly in academia.
Fair point, but that still gives me room to doubt the claim that pull factors have no impact on migration, I must appologize to my overly confidant commwnt earlier in the thread
As I said: the theory of push- and pull-factors is outdated and not really taken seriously in academics anymore. Are you claiming that you know reasons for migration better than academia?
To be frank, no, I don’t claim to understand migration factors better than experts.
But if that theory is no longer seen as credible, I wonder how academia explains migration factors.
For me it isn’t good enough to just say that the theories are wrong, I need to know what factors they believe causes migration instead.
The homepage I linked to earlier tries to ansewer your questions. Here’s the english translation if you don’t speak German.
Alright, so push/pull factors does infact exist, but we don’t know what they are.
Did you read the article? O.o
Yes?
It talks about how the classic push/pull factors are way less important than culture and language.
To me, denying the push/pull concept is dumb, I’ll absolutely conceede that the main push/pull factors may not be as prominant as previously suggested, but the play a part.
The article gives examples of how people want to go to a place with very similar culture and language, and as an example of that the bring up that the vast majority of syrian refugees are housed in Turkey, not other European countries, this is only natural, Turkey is neighbouring Syria, sp naturally most refugees go there, Poland and Ukraina is a similar situation, brodering nations.
This feel to me like a “feels over reals” situation.
That may be right, I see it more like logic reasoning, but I understand that said logic and reasoning is based on feelings and imagined emotions.
It’s actually not, since you treat it more like a non-falsifiable “common sense” situation, which actually excludes logical reasoning.
Prohibition creates black markets. Restrict asylum and you’ll increase human trafficking.
That is fair point, I have myself made the argument of legalizing drugs to remove power and influence from gangs.
When I wrote my long reply I didn’t consider that.
In the whole bad times lead to strong people, which leads to good times, which leads to weak people, which leads to bad times, we’re in the weak people leading to bad times stage. Now things need to get bad enough to start making strong people.
Only problem is the fascists are smarter this time and are pushing everywhere, so this time might not have nation states on the good side.
Why are you repeating that fascist “strong men create good times” bullshit?
While I’m not surprised if fascists use it, I don’t think it is disinformation if they do, seems like more of a human thing where people generally just want to live their lives but asshole control freaks want to take power and gradually do while most just focus on their own things until the control freaks cross too many lines and people decide the best way to live their best life involves removing them from power.
It all depends on how you define “strong people” and “good times”. The fascist version of this isn’t quite in sync with the one I believe in.
Putting that way is stupid. Yeah, maybe what you call fascist this time are smarter but on the other hand what should oppose them is dumber.
Don’t fall for propaganda either. Left and right are two buzzword used by rulers to manipulate public opinion and always stay in power.
Maybe if you (in the generic sense) stop to say that the people who vote for a certain party is (basically) stupid, we all can start to solve problems. The people who voted AfD, like the people who voted for the Right in every other country, are simply saying that they have (or they think to have) a set of problems. Are they real problems ? Maybe, maybe not. But not even acknowledge what these people are saying cannot end in nothing different.
Voters don’t care for rational arguments because the Left throw them out o the window.
Speaking for Italy, the right wing is in government exactly because the Left wing tried way too hard to lose. If the only thing the Left wing can offer is a multi-gender (whatever it means) leader who dont’ even speak about what the people’s problems are (or, again, what the people perceive as a problem) why someone should vote for them ? Rationally, why I should vote for a person that don’t even talk about what I see as a problem instead of a person that at least talk about it ?
And I think that in Germany it is the same thing, even if for different reasons.
Yeah, and the problem is that when the right wing say “the illegal migration is a problem” and people say “the illegal immigration is a problem” the only thing the left wing say is “we need to get more illegal migration”. See how the left wing is basically let the right wing win and on easy mode ?
Ok but the AfD is literally just modern Nazis.
Calling people who voted for them stupidity is the extremely charitable label, because malicious and vile would be more accurate in that case.
Comparing Italy and Germany here just isn’t equivalent.
True, but people (and politicians) still don’t understand (or don’t want to admit) that like the Nazis, AfD are the consequence, not the cause.
Why ? Just because they voted for the Right wing that promise to solve what they see as a problem while the Left wing call them bigot, racist and homophobe, if they even acknowledges what people see as a problem ?
Yeah, maybe the problem is only perceived and I am pretty sure that AfD has no way, other the easy slogan, to solve their problems, but do you really think that ignoring (or worse, insulting) the people who ask you to solve a problem is the right way to get their vote ?
It is not that all the people who voted for the right wing became suddently fascist, it is simply that the other side has no answer to what people are asking, so people go for the only side that has an answer, even if stupid.
They didn’t just vote for the right wing though, they voted for Nazis. So yes, they are literally bigoted, racist, homophobes. If you support people who admired Hitler, guess what? You’re a fucking asshole of a very high degree. Being poor or troubled doesn’t make you an asshole. My parents grew up in extreme poverty in El Salvador, and they didn’t become extreme racists. I was in extreme poverty in university in the USA, I didn’t suddenly start voting right wing either, let alone extremely far right. I hated the democrats over there, but knew the right wing wouldn’t solve it because bad people don’t go good things.
You don’t end up voting for genuinely bad people who admire one of the most atrocious regimes in human history because of frustration. You only do so because you either already have a broken moral compass, or are extremely ignorant and stupid. In Germany though, it’s more likely to be the former rather than the latter considering their history. And it’s that recent history that makes it that much more shameful for Germany, and that shows that Nazism was still not extinguished.
You don’t deal with an intolerant group like Nazi or AfD by excusing them or reaching out to them. You don’t tolerate the intolerant (paradox of tolerance), because otherwise it’ll only be a matter of time before you or someone else is no longer tolerated. And that’s something history has proven repeatedly.
Listen here, as long as people like you don’t understand that AfD (and all the other extreme right wings) are the consequence and not the cause, you will never solve any problem.
People voted AfD because they are the only one, as bad as it is, that at least aknowledge the problems people have (or think to have).
Do you really think that when someone tells you that they see [something] as a problem the better course of action is to insult them, consider them as part of the problem and then call them nazis when they voted for someone else ? Because that is what everyone else except the extreme right is doing.
Yeah, it is bad, but do you really think that people will always continue to vote for the side that they see as the cause of what they see as a problem ?
True
The point is how much you should endure before you become an idiot. Yeah, to vote for the bad guys do not solve the problems, but also to continue to vote for the cause of the problem do not solve it.
True, you end up voting for genuinely bad people because the supposed good people are the one that in your view are the cause of the problem and you do not see any other option (if not do not vote).
Nazism will never be extinguished, you cannot. But you can relegate it to the point that it is irrelevant. But what are you still missing is the cause.
True. You deal with intolerant groups like Nazi and AfD removing the causes that make them rise before they can rise.
What I mean is that the right-wing parties in Germany have focused their entire election campaign on the issue of migration - even the moderate conservatives (CDU). I think this one-sided explanatory approach is wrong and dangerous. On the one hand, I think it is a case of problem shifting. Important issues such as economic and energy policy or climate protection take a back seat to this one, disproportionately presented issue. On the other hand, I think that the isolationist policy advocated by the extreme right (in Germany, the AfD) is an outdated approach, as it does not solve the problem of illegal migration, but merely creates a counterproductive negative mindset towards immigration. And this is precisely what I consider to be very problematic: due to demographic developments, Germany urgently needs workers from abroad - not only, but especially in so-called low-skilled jobs such as nursing. This fact is being completely overlooked in the political debate, which in this country is characterized by xenophobic and even openly racist rhetoric. In short, I believe that the focus of right-wing parties on migration policy is nothing but empty polemics that is based on attributing blame instead of constructive proposals for solutions - we have other problems that need to be solved. I assume that the situation is similar in other European countries.
Evidently migration is seen as a problem from at least some of the people.
Got your point, but I suppose that what can happen next year is more “urgent” than what can happen in 10 years. People can think about what happen in 10 years if they are relatively sure of what will happen next year, nobody will sacrifice the imminent times for a possible gain so far in the future.
Yes, it is outdated. But the alternative we have seen until this point it is worse than the problem. I am pretty sure that the people are not afraid of the Italian nurse that come to work in a German hospital but they are afraid of the illegal immigrants who comes to Germany. AfD simply took advantage of this and of the missing answer from the other political parties.
I think you are wrong. Yes, AfD focus on migration policies but it is more than empty polemics, they intercepted what the common people are starting to think, more and more, that these migration policies and the de facto concession to every minority has the right to do whatever they want even violating the country’s laws are simply unacceptable.
It would be fool to simply think that all the people who voted for AfD (and the right wing in general) are suddently become fascist without any reason and such reasoning will only end in AfD (and the right wing in general) to gain even more power since the left wing are ignoring what the underlying message really is: “we have these problems, solve them or sooner or later someone will, in a way or another”
The left has answers to those problems, but implementing the solutions requires more work than reopening Dachau and banning contraception. I’ve never talked to those imaginary non-racists who vote FN/AfD; all the ones I’ve talked to want the dirty foreigners out, but they are all too stupid to see that our economies are reliant on them. There’s no plan for the “after the purge”, never.
The AfD will always remain unelectable for me - if only because of its openly fascist rhetoric and the associated ideas, which I reject as immoral and inhumane. The claim that the AfD is not a dangerous radical right-wing party is simply false - see Björn Höcke, for example, who is obviously a Nazi with links to various anti-constitutional groups. In addition, their EU election manifesto denies climate change, wants to limit freedom of movement in Europe and wants to abolish the euro as a common currency as well as the GDPR alongside other protectionist, anti-European demands across the board. In my opinion, all these demands are completely absurd and only show how little substance the AfD really has. All they are doing is profiting from the fear-based mood towards immigration that they themselves have helped to create. I can’t understand how anyone can vote for such a party.
I agree and I never said that AfD is not dangerous. What I belive is that people did not become nazis overnight, I don’t belive that people wake up one mornign and say “you know what, from today I will be a nazi”.
I understand and respect your point but what I am seeing is everyone talking about the AfD (and the right wing in generale) that increase their power, that they are a danger to the democracy and so on but nobody ask the simpler question: why ? Why the right wing is getting all these new votes ?
Until the left wing politicians don’t start to ask themself this simple question and are honest giving the answer, the right will continue to rise, that you, me or everyone else like it or not, because they (the left) are missing the point.
And the point is that, for better or worse, the right wing are listening to the people and promise to solve the problems the people have (or that the people think to have: a perceived problem for a person is a real problem, even if the problem itself does not exist in the first place) while the left wing, at least in Italy, is only able to insult me when I express my doubt or ask a solution for what I see as a problem.
Yeah, and that is why I said that some of their ideas are not that bad (at least in principle) while other are beyond stupidity. They know that they will never be able to act on their plan, but they are reading what more and more people are thinking and act accordingly. The main problem is that nobody else is doing the same.
The right wings win because the left, often, are too busy to keep some sort or moral superiority and fighting for irrelevant details instead of focusing on the real problems.
Simple, because they have an answer to the people’s problems. Wrong but an answer.
Yes, it is somewhat true that the AfD addresses people’s problems - at least they make it seem that way. But their rhetoric also ensures that people blame the wrong groups for these problems. The conservatives in the USA do the same, as do the right-wing populists in other countries. The Nazis in the Third Reich also did exactly that - it’s nothing new.
Believe me, I have tried to understand why so many people don’t see through these simple tricks and even allow themselves to be misled into voting against their own interests. I have had discussions with AfD supporters, both online and in real life. I have come to the conclusion that these people are either hopelessly under-informed because they only consume the corresponding social media content, or accept everything their leaders put in front of them in a sect-like manner - even the most ludicrous false claims that can be easily refuted. In both cases, I have very rarely been able to convince people that they are wrong to blame immigrants for all their problems. Over time I have become so disillusioned that I no longer believe that these people can be persuaded en masse with rational arguments - they simply want to believe that they are right and go through the greatest lengths to keep believing that.
However, I am not prepared to abandon a fact-based political discourse just because some particularly loud and snivelling people make life too easy for themselves. So I don’t think that the left should also spread lies, rely on sub-complex explanations and blame some make-believe enemies. Nor do I think that is even possible.
So I must honestly say that I have lost faith in the functioning of democracy. Not because of any military thread or something, but because of the convenience and idiocy of the people. Maybe it can get better when the right-wingers are in government and fail completely - or it will get even worse when they get in a position to impose their inhuman ideology on all moderates in autocratic structures by force. In Germany that has already happened once with disastrous consequences and now we are on the best way to make history repeat itself.
More than that, they target the consequences instead of the cause.
All these are consequences of something else, not the cause.
AfD rises because people see problems that the other parties did not even aknowledge to exist and not because they create the problems.
That’s easy. People are more worried of the day by day problems than some hypothetical future problem so they voted for the side that at least say they will resolve it.
Fine, but the fact-based political discourse should be on both sides. Currently the only one looking at the facts are AfD. Granted that they then bend them to their agenda, but the Left simply ignore the facts as for now.
That is something that it is always said by the people that think to be better than the other when they lose, I am sure you are better than that.
Thank you for your reply. I think there is little point in continuing this thread as we are unlikely to agree. As I have said several times, I am of the opinion that migration policy is not the serious problem that many people think it is - including you, apparently. Accordingly, I also think it is wrong to say that the AfD is pursuing fact-based policies. Rather, I think that the AfD uses (and promotes) people’s vague fears in order to push through its political agenda, which incidentally is not at all in the interests of the “little people” when it comes to economic policy, for example. I am also fundamentally of the opinion that politics must be designed for the long term - this is an absolute necessity, as political decisions always set the course for the future. I think it is naive to believe that political decisions can be made without any long-term effect. That’s why you have to know where you want to go and weigh up what effects political decisions will have. This applies to migration policy as well as to all other policy areas. Apart from that, we also have to deal with problems such as climate change, which of course require extremely long-term planning. Like the AfD, you can simply claim that this problem doesn’t exist and that you can simply carry on as before, but that doesn’t change the fact that climate change is real and needs to be dealt with in a meaningful way.
Too bad, but it was a nice discussion.
I would have considered voting for them, except there was no list with their name where I live
Quick reminder that in a liberal democracy, social movements are more important for progressive change than electoralism.
Join a union. Be it trade union, housing union, or whatever (or even any affinity group). And get active.
Complaining about election results achieves nothing, but sow despair.
Also: voting is important because it lets you choose your enemy. Progressive liberals and social democrats won’t fight against you as hard as conservatives and fascists.
Putting this here because some people might read this and think “Voting doesn’t matter.”
Voting doesn’t really matter, though.
Edit, clarification: at least compared to bottom-up social movements.
.
The US supreme court isn’t even a democratically legitimized body. Why do you want to take the high road if reactionaries clearly don’t care for the rules?
Go to your local library and read a book. Any book.
Ok. I’ve chosen this one
“Hey guys, plowing this field won’t feed you, we should just gather.”
Nice strawman, homie.
It absolutely does though. You can’t elect worker ownership of the means of production but you sure can elect anything from fascists to social democrats. I for one don’t want fascists to control my government
If progressive policies were ever put into place by an elected body, it was always merely a by-product of already established social consensus formed by bottom-up politics.
I fully agree. But people get better things. Not voting means they don’t. Not voting means the people who want worse things get what they want
With electoralism, people get complacent with watered down reforms and become politically alienated.
But media controls people
If it doesn’t matter, why are so many people afraid when the right wing parties take control? If it’s not important why are people so concerned about the supreme Court? Why are women so scared of anti abortion legislation? You vote the legislative and they can simply take the power away from your social movements. So in the end, it does matter.
Voting should not be the main strategy to fight for liberty and progressive change, since the cards in electoralism are way too stacked in favour of the already powerful minority. That’s what I meant with “voting is not important”.
When Trump lost the last election, MAGA-heads were ready to take up arms against what they considered an injustice. Why aren’t progressives ready to do so? How does the “vote blue no matter who” crowd prepare against another Jan 6th situation?
“Progressive” change will only take you further away from liberal democracy and free society.
surpassing liberal democracy is a good thing. I disagree with the free society bit. What definition of “free society” are you referring to?
I’d argue that a progressive country like Denmark with its universal healthcare and universally available college-level education is substantially more free than a freedom-touting country like the United States that limits access to these basics to those with substantial resources.
I wish I could actually vote for the pirate party. But I can’t here. Didn’t show up in the election list. They were 2 or elections ago
Sounds like you’re the new candidate.
I voted for them. Judging by the numbers, there must have been about three of us.
There are more parties who defend internet privacy then just the pirate party. Won’t matter much tho with the current rightwing majority.
Is the incoming majority particularly anti-piracy? I thought they were more fixated on leaving the EU, gutting the “woke” public sector, and rounding up all the immigrants for deportation.
.
Just to make things clear, the pirate party isn’t directly related to piracy. There are ongoing efforts to render end-to-end encryption illegal in Europe as we speak. Dark times are coming
I can’t imagine how you stop all end to end encryption across a continent while you’re exiting the continent-wide governing body.
Who’s exiting? They will just ban any non-compliant messaging app
They whom? Is every country going to have it’s own national firewall, complete with highly sophisticated SMS-only encryption detecting service?
The EU plans to do so and as such every member must follow it.
And once encryption is criminalized, it can be trivially detected - or at least assumed to be encrypted if your message is sufficiently random.
A bunch of these alt-right parties are anti-EU
Doesn’t change anything at all
By law, simply making it illegal as is being worked on.
They have been very active fighting the chat control proposals that keep coming, haven’t really seen others being so active about it besides them. This is really bad.
Last I checked they didn’t have the majority though?
Technically… maybe. Here’s a calculator, EPP+ECR+ID+a chunk of the non-attached and non-assigned might make it over the 50% mark, and then there’s renew which has neoliberals in it.
But that’s not coalition material as the EPP is not eurosceptic, also, that coalition would reach so far right that a good chunk of the EPP would definitely not be on board with it. The populists might also be opposed on reasons of preferring stoking anti-Brussels sentiment over surveillance, and there’s plenty of opportunity for rifts, like the RN saying “The AfD is in favour so we’re opposed”.
Do note than in the EP factions have fuck all when it comes to faction discipline. There’s no whip, all there is is plenty of negotiating.
What did the pirate party stand for? I heard of them before, but not much what they stand for other than digital privacy.
I think this election was mainly focused on Migration, economy and green deal. Mainly why the right took over and the green and left lost. People are seeing the negative effect of migration more and more, and diplomats cannot hide it anymore.
Democracy. Real direct democracy, not the representative bullshit. But with the little influence we got, we can’t do much better than trying to protect digital privacy right now
Outside of their obvious platform, pirate parties tend to be social democratic, like centre-centre left AFAIK. With more of an emphasis on direct democracy and anti-authoritarianism than bigger mainstream parties.
Well, shit, there goes my vote.
I was thinking the whole week if I should vote the greens or the pirates but due to the recurring campaigns to establish a surveillance state I did end up voting pirates. Incredibly disheartened they didn’t get a seat :(
I have voted PP since their conception, and I think we have them to thank for a lot. Will continue to do so, probably forever. I don’t understand how these issues don’t get more attention these days. Tech related privacy, anti monopoly, ai safety etc is just a part but they have excellent values in other areas as well.
Who owns the media?
The rothschilds
.
?
Rothschilds are diamonds and other crap,
It’s the Australian Rupert Murdoch
Although him and a Lord Rothschild have been involved in some fuckery with oil in Israel
I think the correct answer is some billionaire
Yeah it could be the billionaire family that runs everything. Maybe it’s them.
Or it could be something else like aliens I guess?
Great now I need my tinfoil hat
.
The aliens, we covered this
.