Helping FreeBSD stay afloat. But maybe there is a license issue from companies point of view: BSD-2-Clause vs. GPL v2.
rc__buggy@sh.itjust.works
on 29 Sep 2024 13:46
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There are BSD shops out there. Not everyone wants to live under GPL restrictions.
rottingleaf@lemmy.world
on 29 Sep 2024 14:17
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Other than the obvious reasons that Linux is not everyone’s piece of cake - just to have alternatives ready in case it becomes like Chrome.
Buffalox@lemmy.world
on 29 Sep 2024 11:58
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Cool 😎 Anything developed fro FreeBSD can be ported to Linux if needed.
Unfortunately improvements made on Linux can’t be ported back.
This is due to the license terms, But this is also the reason IBM, Google and many others have to contribute back to Linux, and Apple doesn’t to FreeBSD.
rottingleaf@lemmy.world
on 29 Sep 2024 12:09
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Apple doesn’t use that much of FreeBSD, and what they use hasn’t been updated in ages.
And I don’t think there’s much sense porting FreeBSD device drivers to Linux, I think they are different enough. And the article is about things most important for device drivers and other kernel-level things.
Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world
on 29 Sep 2024 12:16
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MacOS and iOS have Freebsd inside their kernel. The reason it doesn’t appear to have been updated in ages is the problem listed by the OP: The BSD license meant that Apple could take without ever giving back. Which is what they did.
leisesprecher@feddit.org
on 29 Sep 2024 12:38
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First of all the nitpicky stuff: Mac OS never used anything FreeBSD in the kernel. The kernel is XNU/mach, FreeBSD only supplies the user land. Pedantic, but we have a cliche to defend.
Anyway, I think you got the update part backwards. Apple doesn’t update its side of the deal. MacOS ships with old bsd apps, simply because apple doesn’t care all that much about it.
Buffalox@lemmy.world
on 29 Sep 2024 13:09
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of the major subsystems of the kernel, only the network stack and the VFS were still truly BSD.
So there were parts of the kernel taken directly from FreeBSD, and OSX was designed around it.
rottingleaf@lemmy.world
on 29 Sep 2024 13:39
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So there were parts of the kernel taken directly from FreeBSD
That would also be true for Windows NT, and many other systems to be honest, because BSD is where TCP/IP support in Unix originated, it had the best implementation (or maybe not the best, but the de-facto reference one).
and OSX was designed around it
No, that’s not true, you are not paying attention.
It has its userland (that’d be Unix tools like cp, ls and find) from some fossilized version of FreeBSD and not updated a lot since that. It’s not much. How do you think, would FreeBSD benefit from their fixes in ls? It’s the other way around, FreeBSD’s userland is much better.
Their actual kernel (XNU) sources they, despite not being obligated, release from time to time.
But say they used Linux, there still would be nothing to force them to release their drivers’ sources or their GUI’s sources (which are closed).
You could have made your case with Sony (I’m still not sure if that’d be of much use), but not with Apple.
rottingleaf@lemmy.world
on 29 Sep 2024 14:09
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I’ve said in another comment that you got it wrong and how. It’s the other way around with things not getting updated - the stuff in MacOS is old, not the stuff in FreeBSD. But that doesn’t matter, because what Apple took from FreeBSD it actually does release among other things from time to time under their own license, only it’s of no use for anyone, because their real proprietary strength is the Cocoa layer and GUI. If they used Linux, they would still not be obligated to release the sources for those. I think you see the problem with your reasoning, knowing that.
Very happy to read that, but honestly, when reading “$1 million USD” as investment sum, it reads more like an advertisement stunt than a real investment. (Like, 2 senior developers for one year?)
We need more diversity in Open Source operating systems for desktops, laptops and any of the *BSDs is a great candidate. (Would love to see Haiku getting some sponsorship or even ReactOS!)
rottingleaf@lemmy.world
on 29 Sep 2024 18:19
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I think they port FreeBSD’s network card drivers to Haiku. So this may affect it positively too.
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 29 Sep 2024 17:05
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Cool, bsd works fine for laptops, but the power management is pretty shit.
Also the wifi support too.
Otherwise I love my freebsd thinkpad, works great when plugged in, but again the wifi is painfully slow.
MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml
on 29 Sep 2024 17:29
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Can’t they just port the Linux drivers?
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 29 Sep 2024 18:02
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Easier said than done, and they can’t copy because gpl.
MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml
on 29 Sep 2024 18:04
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Can the drivers be ported with a different license if it is not included with the BSD licensed operating system?
InverseParallax@lemmy.world
on 29 Sep 2024 19:48
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Absolutely.
They partly were, they’re just not given nearly the same attention and are often terribly outdated and less engineered.
Also they aren’t tested as thoroughly, there was a call for hardware by the FreeBSD team not that long ago that I can’t find, they simply don’t have the same kind of resources.
Most FreeBSD dev is focused on server hardware like for Netflix and its ilk, I don’t know many other people who use it as a daily driver.
HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com
on 29 Sep 2024 17:26
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threaded - newest
But why?
Helping FreeBSD stay afloat. But maybe there is a license issue from companies point of view: BSD-2-Clause vs. GPL v2.
There are BSD shops out there. Not everyone wants to live under GPL restrictions.
Other than the obvious reasons that Linux is not everyone’s piece of cake - just to have alternatives ready in case it becomes like Chrome.
Cool 😎 Anything developed fro FreeBSD can be ported to Linux if needed.
Unfortunately improvements made on Linux can’t be ported back.
This is due to the license terms, But this is also the reason IBM, Google and many others have to contribute back to Linux, and Apple doesn’t to FreeBSD.
Apple doesn’t use that much of FreeBSD, and what they use hasn’t been updated in ages.
And I don’t think there’s much sense porting FreeBSD device drivers to Linux, I think they are different enough. And the article is about things most important for device drivers and other kernel-level things.
MacOS and iOS have Freebsd inside their kernel. The reason it doesn’t appear to have been updated in ages is the problem listed by the OP: The BSD license meant that Apple could take without ever giving back. Which is what they did.
First of all the nitpicky stuff: Mac OS never used anything FreeBSD in the kernel. The kernel is XNU/mach, FreeBSD only supplies the user land. Pedantic, but we have a cliche to defend.
Anyway, I think you got the update part backwards. Apple doesn’t update its side of the deal. MacOS ships with old bsd apps, simply because apple doesn’t care all that much about it.
stackoverflow.com/…/how-closely-are-mac-os-x-and-…
So there were parts of the kernel taken directly from FreeBSD, and OSX was designed around it.
That would also be true for Windows NT, and many other systems to be honest, because BSD is where TCP/IP support in Unix originated, it had the best implementation (or maybe not the best, but the de-facto reference one).
No, that’s not true, you are not paying attention.
It has its userland (that’d be Unix tools like
cp,lsandfind) from some fossilized version of FreeBSD and not updated a lot since that. It’s not much. How do you think, would FreeBSD benefit from their fixes inls? It’s the other way around, FreeBSD’s userland is much better.Their actual kernel (XNU) sources they, despite not being obligated, release from time to time.
But say they used Linux, there still would be nothing to force them to release their drivers’ sources or their GUI’s sources (which are closed).
You could have made your case with Sony (I’m still not sure if that’d be of much use), but not with Apple.
I’ve said in another comment that you got it wrong and how. It’s the other way around with things not getting updated - the stuff in MacOS is old, not the stuff in FreeBSD. But that doesn’t matter, because what Apple took from FreeBSD it actually does release among other things from time to time under their own license, only it’s of no use for anyone, because their real proprietary strength is the Cocoa layer and GUI. If they used Linux, they would still not be obligated to release the sources for those. I think you see the problem with your reasoning, knowing that.
playstation run on freebsd too
I was completely unaware of that, but it checks out:
en.wikipedia.org/…/PlayStation_4_system_software
No doubt FreeBSD benefit big corps, but big corps have problems benefiting FreeBSD.
en.wikipedia.org/…/PlayStation_3_system_software playstation 3 too, also Nintendo switch using some parts of freebsd as I’ve heard
No they don’t, Netflix and NetApp and I think somebody else have contributed back significantly.
Also a system intended to run exactly one application in one moment with direct access to hardware is likely not very rich on possible contributions.
The shittiness of that stack of laptops in the photo hurts my soul
I dunno, it looks like two framework laptops and a modern macbook pro. They could be doing far worse if that’s what those are.
This photo?
<img alt="" src="https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/0c033b18-d3e9-4440-9cf4-3ae631b89d71.webp">
Should be an international war crime. Who the hell stacks laptops like that…
Very happy to read that, but honestly, when reading “$1 million USD” as investment sum, it reads more like an advertisement stunt than a real investment. (Like, 2 senior developers for one year?)
We need more diversity in Open Source operating systems for desktops, laptops and any of the *BSDs is a great candidate. (Would love to see Haiku getting some sponsorship or even ReactOS!)
I think they port FreeBSD’s network card drivers to Haiku. So this may affect it positively too.
Cool, bsd works fine for laptops, but the power management is pretty shit.
Also the wifi support too.
Otherwise I love my freebsd thinkpad, works great when plugged in, but again the wifi is painfully slow.
Can’t they just port the Linux drivers?
Easier said than done, and they can’t copy because gpl.
Ahh right, BSD vs. GPL license.
Can the drivers be ported with a different license if it is not included with the BSD licensed operating system?
Absolutely.
They partly were, they’re just not given nearly the same attention and are often terribly outdated and less engineered.
Also they aren’t tested as thoroughly, there was a call for hardware by the FreeBSD team not that long ago that I can’t find, they simply don’t have the same kind of resources.
Most FreeBSD dev is focused on server hardware like for Netflix and its ilk, I don’t know many other people who use it as a daily driver.
worked well for apple.