Skies5394@lemmy.ml
on 10 Nov 2023 15:50
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It’s basically just their Outlook web app. It offers no extra function, and breaks a LOT of old functionality.
There’s a registry key to turn off the button.
baduhai@sopuli.xyz
on 10 Nov 2023 15:51
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There’s a registry key to turn off the button.
Of course it’s a registry key.
emptyother@programming.dev
on 10 Nov 2023 16:14
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A registry key which is probably reset every 3rd update anyway, as usual.
Land_Strider@lemmy.world
on 10 Nov 2023 16:39
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Don’t even need the damn button. Yesterday while playing some fullscreen game with critical network usage (CSGO) my windows 10 with edited group policies and registry keys to block updates just switched to the outlook from the old mail program and ran it in the foreground (behind the game).
Microsoft doesn’t give a fuck about the user consent, the settings for updates, settings for game focus, out-of-the-way advanced user controls etc. These settings don’t even need to be defaulted without consent via updates, it seems they outright don’t work.
wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 10 Nov 2023 21:16
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Oof. If you aren’t using them, you can uninstall the default included MS Store Apps with PowerShell. Could have saved you some trouble.
I was going to say I had a similar setup and didn’t get that update, but I remembered I had uninstalled the mail app.
nihth@programming.dev
on 10 Nov 2023 21:55
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Had a similar issue where my computer (w10) would restart while I was away and update my gpu driver which would crash regularly. There’s two different places in windows where you can disable this, one in general and one for specifically the device. None of them worked. Basically was forced to do the whole restart to safe mode -> destroy driver -> restart -> install driver -> restart every day. What solved it was a gpo but at that point I was so fed up I ended up switching to Linux
reddit_sux@lemmy.world
on 12 Nov 2023 01:57
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Microsoft doesn’t give a fuck about users.
JustEnoughDucks@feddit.nl
on 12 Nov 2023 07:57
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After connecting my (non Microsoft) email account to the Outlook Android app I noticed the login location was geolocated in the USA… I live in Australia.
Unfortunately there’s no way to turn it off.
brihuang95@sopuli.xyz
on 10 Nov 2023 16:04
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What are the more “trustworthy” email clients? Thunderbird still good?
reddit_sux@lemmy.world
on 10 Nov 2023 16:10
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i_am_hiding@aussie.zone
on 10 Nov 2023 23:26
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They acquired K-9 Mail a year ago or so, but it’s still K-9 Mail. There’s plans and a roadmap, but not much has happened that the end user can see, yet.
I’ve been looking at it recently because I’m currently using Mailbird. In recent weeks they told us that support for their current client will stop in 12 months time and we need to get on their latest client, which they want a one off payment AND an annual subscription. What greedy ducks.
Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 11 Nov 2023 17:01
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Some points I remember from the time I ditched it (around 3-5 years ago). They may changed them:
The payment was linked to the version. Wanna get a new major version = pay for the new license. It’s like buying the MS 20xx package but in that case you only have the single client instead of a whole suite. (Ignoring the whole price difference)
Client UI wasnt my cup of tea
Multi account didnt feel as comfortable as it does feel on outlook.
Had some issues connecting my Gmail accounts and keeping them connected. Not aware of any issues with outlook
Afaik the database went bad at some point. Maybe imisremember it though
In essence, most issues were personal. Try it for yourself. Maybe the newer version suits you more than me!
Update: Seems like I either misremember it or I bought a license because of a feature (at the time). Anyway: They appear to have changed the licensing for home use to be free and only corporate users need to pay.
ares35@kbin.social
on 10 Nov 2023 16:17
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not just login credentials, but all your mail, too, even if you aren't using a microsoft-hosted mail account.
RocketBoots@programming.dev
on 10 Nov 2023 16:26
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I wish I was a good enough dev to write a swift keys replacement. There’s AnySoftKeyboard available, and they’re doing an amazing job with swipe input which I prefer, but there’s only so much one person can do.
GenderNeutralBro@lemmy.sdf.org
on 10 Nov 2023 18:49
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Gesture typing is still in early development. The suggestions bar doesn’t work yet so it’s really hard to use. Nevertheless, looks promising, and it looks like development is starting back up. I’ll keep an eye on it.
I have yet to find an open-source keyboard with gesture typing that is anywhere near as usable as Gboard, unfortunately.
Not one of them seem to be major and inherent to the technology. Size limits are arbitrary. Privacy concerns can be addressed with the likes of encryption. Email fatigue is a ridiculous reason to gripe about.
Address spoofing is probably the most annoying but could be addressed my making the actual email the header. So that’s an implementation issue.
Size limits aren’t arbitrary. Email format translates attachments to ASCII which makes them larger and harder to process. Mail servers need to scan and handle messages which means they will need to impose limits to be able to work well. Back in the day when Gmail didn’t it quickly started being abused by people using it as online storage.
Encryption is difficult to implement with a system that performs multi-point handoff, and works against some use cases like corporate use where you want virus scanning.
Try to design an alternative email system and you’ll see how quickly you start losing features that make it interesting and useful. For example, for all its faults email is very user-centric and portable, you can easily take your domain and move your addresses to a different provider. How many other communication services can you say that about?
Desistance@lemmy.world
on 10 Nov 2023 17:28
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Thunderbird ftw
elias_griffin@lemmy.world
on 10 Nov 2023 20:03
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I’m seeing many people recommend Thunderbird. Let me enlightnen you.
I personally never trust any software that is not secure and private by default. Mozilla Corp is a for-profit corporation that makes nearly a Billion dollars in cooperation with Google monetizing data about your life. Thunderbird is Mozilla and if you setup with the Wizard, it already got the basics about your email life even if you disable it later.
Thunderbird Not Private by Default
Sends all interactions with it to Mozilla
Whether calendar is in use
How many filters you have
How many email accounts you have
Computer/Device Information including hardware configuration
17 Criticial or High Vulnerabilies this year alone
Conclusion
If email security and privacy means a lot to you, or even computer security and privacy, your best options are to use BSD/UNIX/Void/Alpine and Claws-Mail. That is just the way the cookie crumbles in 2023.
cheese_greater@lemmy.world
on 10 Nov 2023 21:09
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Can someone respond to this who is able to reasonably challenge this view(s)?
chaospatterns@lemmy.world
on 10 Nov 2023 21:28
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It’s true that Mozilla does collect telemetry and that Mozilla Corp is for profit, however Mozilla Corp is owned by Mozilla Foundation. That ownership structure is either a way to get around limitations on non profits, or its an opportunity for the Foundation to directly influence the Corp to be better.
However, I’ll still use Firefox/Thunderbird because:
Usage stats such as number of accounts or filters is in no way comparable to my username and password. One is basic metadata and stats, the other is a massive risk. You can opt out of the telemetry, the only way to opt out of sharing your password is to not use the new Outlook.
I take a more pragmatic approach to privacy based on my trust. I understand the value of telemetry, but change it depending on the company. Big Tech I have less trust in, Mozilla, while they have issues, are on average far better for privacy vs big tech.
As a developer, I understand the value of telemetry and the risks that come with collecting any data. I pick Firefox because it challenges the homogeney of Google’s influence and it looks like I’m going to pick Thunderbird because I’ haven’t seen a better option.
elias_griffin@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 2023 00:15
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Whoa, 9 upvotes instantly, then a block of 11 downvotes, then another block of 8 downvotes, and then a challenger reply, very interesting! Refute this guy he says! It’s hard when someone challenges long held viewpoints, I get that. I live and breath security for decades now, there is nothing to refute, I left those parts out.
I’m choosing to repond here because this is a typical Big-Tech marketing speak viewpoint, that somehow Mozilla is to be trusted, that Mozilla isn’t Big Tech. Well, it obviously is Big Tech to the tune of almost a Billion, what! The way they hide that massive Mozilla Corp money behind a non-profit, sketchy!
Right there you should not trust them
Even though you can opt-out of the Telemetry, which can be useful if done correctly, the majority of the most valuable data about your digital life is already collected when you set it up. Opting out only disables further collection.
Mozilla is a significant part of increasing Google’s hegemony if you read the article, you have it backwards! The Internet Data search et al. valuation is vastly superior [value] to browser valuation or market share to which Firefox is only something like 7%.
Lastly going with Thunderbird because it’s the least bad is a terrible choice to have to make, isn’t it? Do I have that wrong? Even if you are on Windows, you can determine to not play the least-bad game of Big-Tech selling the least amount of details about your life and just run your email somewhere else, even in a VM.
I’m here for people power and not Mega-Corp power. I’m writing this at the keyboard right now willing to get flack and downvotes, for you. I gave you the viable option, Claws-Mail.
Some may say yeah, but BSD/Linux Claws-Mail is not a shiny UX experience and those shinies are worth sale of my digital identity/me. How Gollum of you!
Yeah, I said it Lemmy, I said it! Don’t sell yourself for free because it’s easier or “more intuitive” or “works better”!
legoshark@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 2023 02:01
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I appreciate your informative post. I almost down voted it for the statement that Mozilla is big tech, but you do have a valid point that they are on Google’s leash. I wish it weren’t that way and that they were self-sustaining, but it is what it is. In my mind, they are better than the big tech companies because of their non-profit ownership, but non-profits can be corrupted. I’m still going to continue using Firefox though since the web desperately needs browser competition and it’s the only competition in town =)
Complaining about downvotes is a sure fire way to get more downvotes.
But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the information you’re presenting, so much as the way you’re presenting it.
There’s tons of emotion around news and facts these days and people just want it cut straight without the fat. Don’t tell us how to feel, or why we should feel that way, tell us what the facts are and we’re grown ups, we’ll put our big people clothes on and make up how we feel about it on our own.
Any emotion you put into it is likely to undo any good points you may have made. There’s a time for that, this isn’t it.
elias_griffin@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 2023 08:35
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Ah, this post, it was bound to happen. Thing is I know all the internet social rules. I was on a baud modems and Netscape Navigator. I’m an expert at Psychology and many other things.
Let me condense your rules. No judgement, no emotion, no against-the-grain, otherwise I will accumulate anonymous/secret peer pressure ostracizing. Trust me I know, any high schooler will tell you these rules. However, what does that system sound like it will conclude in, a communication expectation of no judgement, no emotion, no singular criticism?
I’m choosing not to play by those rules because they don’t improve the human condition which is what I’m after, even if it’s only 1 person. Judgement is needed, shame is needed, they’re aren’t many grown-ups as you say, they just think they are, otherwise the state of technology and the world would not be so dismal and disasterous right now with America being the fattest and most depressed it’s ever been. Harsh words, but true.
You might say who am I to do that? There are many responses I can give, but perhaps the best one is, that I’m anyone, someone, willing to give voice, passion, and a well-thought out and logical counter to the current group-think where people pimp themselves out to Google and Mozilla.
You also mistake me. I didn’t post about downvotes to be contrarion against the crowd, a well known pyschological phenomena, but to hint at, make an inference to, that it was unnatural, algorithmic, let’s say.
So you get carte blanche to be insufferable because you consider yourself to be a holier than thou messenger with self-assigned credentials?
anotherandrew@lemmy.mixdown.ca
on 11 Nov 2023 13:16
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Pretty much my conclusion. Their writing style is completely off-putting and even if they have good points, I’m not going to endure their attitude to try to get to them anymore.
I’ve been online just at long, if not longer than them, and their “type” is nothing new. Nor is the solution: smiles and wave, boys, smile and wave.
Honestly, their comment reads like copy pasta. That first paragraph is chef’s kiss.
I initially thought they weren’t being sincere, something something Poe’s law…
(’ v ')/
hangonasecond@lemmy.world
on 12 Nov 2023 02:20
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I really thought I was reading an elaborate troll. I expected some hell in a cell, at least.
elias_griffin@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 2023 19:40
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A spiteful response that misses every mark while proving my point. Thanks for the extra credit.
nomadwannabe@lemmy.ca
on 12 Nov 2023 09:26
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The way you write is very off-putting. It seems like many people agree. I read your comments because I was interested in the information but yeah. Not trying to be mean, but I understand why you’re getting resistance while you’re trying to provide info.
thomask@lemmy.sdf.org
on 10 Nov 2023 22:36
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Honestly I’m glad they highlighted the telemetry. I went through the local report about what’s included and while it’s not an upsetting level of detail, it’s more comprehensive than I would have opted in to if asked.
Still, as sibling points out it’s in a completely different league from slurping up your IMAP creds, something which has always been local-only data. This is the second time I know of recently where MS has trampled on this kind of local-only expectation - the other was Edge defaulting to sending the contents of textboxes you’re filling out on webpages to the MS cloud for spelling and grammar checks. Thunderbird is still a sound recommendation, and unlike Microsoft, I trust that if I uncheck the telemetry box they’re not going to try to get me some other way.
Thunderbird doesn’t passphrase-protect your PGP key. Though you can set a general password… For something less important, its OpenPGP may be convenient, given that if you send/receive email normally, there is metadata problem anyway. But if you need to play it safe, you may want to use gpg offline and paste ascii.
Increasingly more and more “phoning home” is not exactly comfortable, either: thunderbird-settings.thunderbird(.)net location.services.mozilla(.)com addons.thunderbird(.)net versioncheck.addons.thunderbird(.)net services.addons.thunderbird(.)net, etc. Perhaps people today, both users and developers, feel something like this is normal, because things were already more or less like this when they were born.
Re: Micro$oft - It might be that after raped by Google, the society has been desensitized and stopped feeling anything about “minor details.” Why worrying now? You use a Windows 10 passport account (what is it called?) just to log on to “your own” computer and also a Gmail account anyway, right? So bad news is, your privacy is almost zero already.
sunbeam60@lemmy.one
on 10 Nov 2023 22:55
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I mean, duh!!
It’s a web version wrapped in some god-awful semi-native wrapper. Everything the app does is stored on the server. So, yes, like gmail, if you give it access to another IMAP account, the password is stored on the server BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS.
This isn’t a scandal. It shouldn’t be news.
The bigger discussion why are we pretending a server driven mail client is local?
thomask@lemmy.sdf.org
on 10 Nov 2023 23:11
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That is the discussion. Microsoft is pretending by making it the upgrade path for two products which actually are local, and hoping users won’t notice.
JustARegularNerd@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 2023 19:50
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At work I’ve been trying to use the new Outlook but the biggest gripe (other than this new news) is that it’s once again, a fucking Electron app and a lot of features have been cut.
I work at an MSP and people have mistakenly changed to the new Outlook, and then find things like their local mail rules stop working (because it doesn’t support those anymore), their custom accounting software that would compose an email in Outlook straight up won’t do that with new Outlook, for businesses it’s going to wreak havoc if Microsoft just force updates everyone.
At least m365 outlook / outlook 2016 counts as a different product as far as I’m aware, don’t think updating Mail will affect the real outlook
kapnova9@lemmynsfw.com
on 11 Nov 2023 00:21
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People complain about Apple a lot but I think Microsoft is a much more annoying company and it is very difficult to avoid their products/services. Same with google
There’s definitely things to dislike about Apple, but a lot of the complaining just feels like some childish console war.
douglasg14b@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 2023 04:18
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Sure, if you only listen to and care about such petulant complaining.
There are actual gripes to be had that have broader implications.
XenGi@lemmy.chaos.berlin
on 11 Nov 2023 12:49
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I don’t get why people still use Microsoft services. How many data privacy scandals do we need, so they understand? Or do they still not care?
mriormro@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 2023 13:05
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Because they’re forced to? They own a large slice of enterprise.
XenGi@lemmy.chaos.berlin
on 11 Nov 2023 14:10
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In taking about personal email. I also use outlook at work because I’m forced to, but I would never let these bastards touch my private Mails.
Something_Complex@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 2023 18:34
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Even with search engines you can basically choose the Google index, the Microsoft index or the Amazon index
XenGi@lemmy.chaos.berlin
on 12 Nov 2023 01:12
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Yeah but at least Google offers a good search engine while sniffing all your data. Microsoft products are usually hot garbage, sniff your data and then loose it.
Also what is the Amazon index?
Evotech@lemmy.world
on 11 Nov 2023 18:56
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It’s insanely cheap for what you get
Business wise it’s a no brainer
XenGi@lemmy.chaos.berlin
on 12 Nov 2023 01:17
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It’s honestly pretty expensive compared to the alternatives. If you compare a business setup with windows plus office etc plus the support fee you can get all of that for free plus a much lower support fee from a variety of independent companies with Linux and libreoffice.
The typical office worker really doesn’t need the few corner cases where MS office maybe has an advantage. Honestly for a business I would even go with Google tools. Same data privacy issues, but at least the product works great. MS office in the cloud is hot garbage.
Evotech@lemmy.world
on 12 Nov 2023 07:35
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imnate compatibility with other organisations is a huge selling point.
For companies at a certain scale / within a certain field I don’t think it’s even up for discussion.
Deftdrummer@lemmy.world
on 12 Nov 2023 09:25
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Well you got 15 words or so in before mentioning Linux.
XenGi@lemmy.chaos.berlin
on 12 Nov 2023 10:10
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What else would I mention? Some doesn’t have an office suite and figure is the only other competitor.
PlutoniumAcid@lemmy.world
on 12 Nov 2023 12:15
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Because my line of work means I working corporations, and they ALWAYS run everything on the big names, Microsoft and Oracle.
At home, I have choice. At work, I must swallow.
XenGi@lemmy.chaos.berlin
on 12 Nov 2023 13:23
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Yeah companies that choose otherwise are rare. But they do exist.
sheogorath@lemmy.world
on 12 Nov 2023 13:40
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If you’re working with clients that requires you to have security certifications it can be a real pain in the ass to certify your setup for everything vs just using the 365 stack.
XenGi@lemmy.chaos.berlin
on 12 Nov 2023 14:05
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True. Hate it when people want the cert instead of actual security. But I know how the world ticks. Corporate usually doesn’t give you a choice.
bingbong@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 12 Nov 2023 15:15
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At home, I have choice. At work, I must swallow.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
WhyYesZoidberg@lemmy.world
on 13 Nov 2023 14:33
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And at work I don’t really care. It’s not my data they are “looking” at. It’s my employers.
I guess they won’t lose any corporate customers over this. The pure shit that it outlooks hasn’t scared anyone away yet.
I tried to delete ~7k emails today. I had to kill the process since it stopped responding. Wtf?
some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org
on 12 Nov 2023 18:35
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I have a government job (shocking to me still) and everything is on Exchange and 365. I don’t know why, other than “nobody ever got fired for recommending IBM.”
RacoonVegetable@reddthat.com
on 11 Nov 2023 18:22
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Common Microsoft L
bingbong@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 12 Nov 2023 15:14
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Both of those are usable but that’s about it. I use Evolution because it integrates with online accounts service well and I don’t have to mine for contacts, but overall it’s a sorry state of email clients in Linux world. Geary had nice ideas for a while, but it’s also dreadfully optimized and development has kind of stopped.
It’s also not such an easy to problem to solve either. Whole Gnome ecosystem got a lot better with new and modern applications with sleek designs, but email clients remain a pain in the ass.
threaded - newest
It’s basically just their Outlook web app. It offers no extra function, and breaks a LOT of old functionality.
There’s a registry key to turn off the button.
Of course it’s a registry key.
A registry key which is probably reset every 3rd update anyway, as usual.
Don’t even need the damn button. Yesterday while playing some fullscreen game with critical network usage (CSGO) my windows 10 with edited group policies and registry keys to block updates just switched to the outlook from the old mail program and ran it in the foreground (behind the game).
Microsoft doesn’t give a fuck about the user consent, the settings for updates, settings for game focus, out-of-the-way advanced user controls etc. These settings don’t even need to be defaulted without consent via updates, it seems they outright don’t work.
Oof. If you aren’t using them, you can uninstall the default included MS Store Apps with PowerShell. Could have saved you some trouble.
I was going to say I had a similar setup and didn’t get that update, but I remembered I had uninstalled the mail app.
Had a similar issue where my computer (w10) would restart while I was away and update my gpu driver which would crash regularly. There’s two different places in windows where you can disable this, one in general and one for specifically the device. None of them worked. Basically was forced to do the whole restart to safe mode -> destroy driver -> restart -> install driver -> restart every day. What solved it was a gpo but at that point I was so fed up I ended up switching to Linux
Microsoft doesn’t give a fuck about users.
Do you mean CS2? I wish I could still play csgo…
I heard you still can through the beta tab?
Yes, but you can’t play because all of the official servers are offline. Only custom servers I think.
That sucks. I barely even played the original. Only just sort of got into multiplayer gaming.
Well, it’s intended for companies, so for them there’s InTune policies or is GPOs. For us plebs, we just have to not press the button.
Group policy can be modified by a laymen by launching
gpedit.mscfrom Super+R or the start menu.Not on Home edition
You can do it on home. Takes a lot of googling and monkeying around, but I did it on my father’s computer years ago.
The Android app has done this for years too.
After connecting my (non Microsoft) email account to the Outlook Android app I noticed the login location was geolocated in the USA… I live in Australia.
Unfortunately there’s no way to turn it off.
What are the more “trustworthy” email clients? Thunderbird still good?
New Thunderbird is great.
Is there a mobile app for Thunderbird?
Not per se, but Thunderbird is supposedly collaborating with the K-9 team to make K-9 the mobile version of Thunderbird.
.
Please let this be so 🙀
It certainly is so :) blog.thunderbird.net/…/thunderbird-for-android-k-…
They acquired K-9 Mail a year ago or so, but it’s still K-9 Mail. There’s plans and a roadmap, but not much has happened that the end user can see, yet.
Thunderbird has also hired an iOS app developer.
Does Thunderbird work with Exchange?
Yes but it’s fiddly.
So it’s just as compatible as Outlook?
.
the recent revamp of thunderbird is really good.
em client (commercial product, but free for some--2 mail accounts, home use only) is also a solid choice.
Personally disliked emclient and went back to outlook.
Maybe I’ll consider Thunderbird in the future now that it looks modern.
Already using Firefox.
Why did you dislike eM Client?
I’ve been looking at it recently because I’m currently using Mailbird. In recent weeks they told us that support for their current client will stop in 12 months time and we need to get on their latest client, which they want a one off payment AND an annual subscription. What greedy ducks.
Some points I remember from the time I ditched it (around 3-5 years ago). They may changed them:
In essence, most issues were personal. Try it for yourself. Maybe the newer version suits you more than me!
Update: Seems like I either misremember it or I bought a license because of a feature (at the time). Anyway: They appear to have changed the licensing for home use to be free and only corporate users need to pay.
not just login credentials, but all your mail, too, even if you aren't using a microsoft-hosted mail account.
I wish I was a good enough dev to write a swift keys replacement. There’s AnySoftKeyboard available, and they’re doing an amazing job with swipe input which I prefer, but there’s only so much one person can do.
FlorisBoard
Gesture typing is still in early development. The suggestions bar doesn’t work yet so it’s really hard to use. Nevertheless, looks promising, and it looks like development is starting back up. I’ll keep an eye on it.
I have yet to find an open-source keyboard with gesture typing that is anywhere near as usable as Gboard, unfortunately.
A compromise is this OpenBoard fork by Helium314 which is able to use Google's proprietary gesture typing library, which can be downloaded and loaded manually if you want to enable it. It's still a privacy improvement over using Gboard.
It's just outrageous that we're in 202-almost-4 and mail is still in use the way it is.
Seriously, the fix has been available for almost 30 years, no one has been able - or willing - to popularize it. Hmmm.
What’s the issue with mail?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email#Issues
Not one of them seem to be major and inherent to the technology. Size limits are arbitrary. Privacy concerns can be addressed with the likes of encryption. Email fatigue is a ridiculous reason to gripe about.
Address spoofing is probably the most annoying but could be addressed my making the actual email the header. So that’s an implementation issue.
Size limits aren’t arbitrary. Email format translates attachments to ASCII which makes them larger and harder to process. Mail servers need to scan and handle messages which means they will need to impose limits to be able to work well. Back in the day when Gmail didn’t it quickly started being abused by people using it as online storage.
Encryption is difficult to implement with a system that performs multi-point handoff, and works against some use cases like corporate use where you want virus scanning.
Try to design an alternative email system and you’ll see how quickly you start losing features that make it interesting and useful. For example, for all its faults email is very user-centric and portable, you can easily take your domain and move your addresses to a different provider. How many other communication services can you say that about?
What’s the fix?
Thunderbird ftw
I’m seeing many people recommend Thunderbird. Let me enlightnen you.
I personally never trust any software that is not secure and private by default. Mozilla Corp is a for-profit corporation that makes nearly a Billion dollars in cooperation with Google monetizing data about your life. Thunderbird is Mozilla and if you setup with the Wizard, it already got the basics about your email life even if you disable it later.
Thunderbird Not Private by Default
support.mozilla.org/…/thunderbird-telemetry
Disabling Telemetry
Thunderbird Bad Security Practice of using a Primary Password
…mozilla.org/…/protect-your-thunderbird-passwords…
17 Criticial or High Vulnerabilies this year alone
Conclusion
If email security and privacy means a lot to you, or even computer security and privacy, your best options are to use BSD/UNIX/Void/Alpine and Claws-Mail. That is just the way the cookie crumbles in 2023.
Can someone respond to this who is able to reasonably challenge this view(s)?
It’s true that Mozilla does collect telemetry and that Mozilla Corp is for profit, however Mozilla Corp is owned by Mozilla Foundation. That ownership structure is either a way to get around limitations on non profits, or its an opportunity for the Foundation to directly influence the Corp to be better.
However, I’ll still use Firefox/Thunderbird because: Usage stats such as number of accounts or filters is in no way comparable to my username and password. One is basic metadata and stats, the other is a massive risk. You can opt out of the telemetry, the only way to opt out of sharing your password is to not use the new Outlook.
I take a more pragmatic approach to privacy based on my trust. I understand the value of telemetry, but change it depending on the company. Big Tech I have less trust in, Mozilla, while they have issues, are on average far better for privacy vs big tech.
As a developer, I understand the value of telemetry and the risks that come with collecting any data. I pick Firefox because it challenges the homogeney of Google’s influence and it looks like I’m going to pick Thunderbird because I’ haven’t seen a better option.
Whoa, 9 upvotes instantly, then a block of 11 downvotes, then another block of 8 downvotes, and then a challenger reply, very interesting! Refute this guy he says! It’s hard when someone challenges long held viewpoints, I get that. I live and breath security for decades now, there is nothing to refute, I left those parts out.
I’m choosing to repond here because this is a typical Big-Tech marketing speak viewpoint, that somehow Mozilla is to be trusted, that Mozilla isn’t Big Tech. Well, it obviously is Big Tech to the tune of almost a Billion, what! The way they hide that massive Mozilla Corp money behind a non-profit, sketchy!
Right there you should not trust them
Even though you can opt-out of the Telemetry, which can be useful if done correctly, the majority of the most valuable data about your digital life is already collected when you set it up. Opting out only disables further collection.
Mozilla is a significant part of increasing Google’s hegemony if you read the article, you have it backwards! The Internet Data search et al. valuation is vastly superior [value] to browser valuation or market share to which Firefox is only something like 7%.
Lastly going with Thunderbird because it’s the least bad is a terrible choice to have to make, isn’t it? Do I have that wrong? Even if you are on Windows, you can determine to not play the least-bad game of Big-Tech selling the least amount of details about your life and just run your email somewhere else, even in a VM.
I’m here for people power and not Mega-Corp power. I’m writing this at the keyboard right now willing to get flack and downvotes, for you. I gave you the viable option, Claws-Mail.
Some may say yeah, but BSD/Linux Claws-Mail is not a shiny UX experience and those shinies are worth sale of my digital identity/me. How Gollum of you!
Yeah, I said it Lemmy, I said it! Don’t sell yourself for free because it’s easier or “more intuitive” or “works better”!
I appreciate your informative post. I almost down voted it for the statement that Mozilla is big tech, but you do have a valid point that they are on Google’s leash. I wish it weren’t that way and that they were self-sustaining, but it is what it is. In my mind, they are better than the big tech companies because of their non-profit ownership, but non-profits can be corrupted. I’m still going to continue using Firefox though since the web desperately needs browser competition and it’s the only competition in town =)
Complaining about downvotes is a sure fire way to get more downvotes.
But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the information you’re presenting, so much as the way you’re presenting it.
There’s tons of emotion around news and facts these days and people just want it cut straight without the fat. Don’t tell us how to feel, or why we should feel that way, tell us what the facts are and we’re grown ups, we’ll put our big people clothes on and make up how we feel about it on our own.
Any emotion you put into it is likely to undo any good points you may have made. There’s a time for that, this isn’t it.
Ah, this post, it was bound to happen. Thing is I know all the internet social rules. I was on a baud modems and Netscape Navigator. I’m an expert at Psychology and many other things.
Let me condense your rules. No judgement, no emotion, no against-the-grain, otherwise I will accumulate anonymous/secret peer pressure ostracizing. Trust me I know, any high schooler will tell you these rules. However, what does that system sound like it will conclude in, a communication expectation of no judgement, no emotion, no singular criticism?
I’m choosing not to play by those rules because they don’t improve the human condition which is what I’m after, even if it’s only 1 person. Judgement is needed, shame is needed, they’re aren’t many grown-ups as you say, they just think they are, otherwise the state of technology and the world would not be so dismal and disasterous right now with America being the fattest and most depressed it’s ever been. Harsh words, but true.
You might say who am I to do that? There are many responses I can give, but perhaps the best one is, that I’m anyone, someone, willing to give voice, passion, and a well-thought out and logical counter to the current group-think where people pimp themselves out to Google and Mozilla.
You also mistake me. I didn’t post about downvotes to be contrarion against the crowd, a well known pyschological phenomena, but to hint at, make an inference to, that it was unnatural, algorithmic, let’s say.
So you get carte blanche to be insufferable because you consider yourself to be a holier than thou messenger with self-assigned credentials?
Pretty much my conclusion. Their writing style is completely off-putting and even if they have good points, I’m not going to endure their attitude to try to get to them anymore.
I’ve been online just at long, if not longer than them, and their “type” is nothing new. Nor is the solution: smiles and wave, boys, smile and wave.
Honestly, their comment reads like copy pasta. That first paragraph is chef’s kiss.
I initially thought they weren’t being sincere, something something Poe’s law…
(’ v ')/
I really thought I was reading an elaborate troll. I expected some hell in a cell, at least.
A spiteful response that misses every mark while proving my point. Thanks for the extra credit.
The way you write is very off-putting. It seems like many people agree. I read your comments because I was interested in the information but yeah. Not trying to be mean, but I understand why you’re getting resistance while you’re trying to provide info.
Honestly I’m glad they highlighted the telemetry. I went through the local report about what’s included and while it’s not an upsetting level of detail, it’s more comprehensive than I would have opted in to if asked.
Still, as sibling points out it’s in a completely different league from slurping up your IMAP creds, something which has always been local-only data. This is the second time I know of recently where MS has trampled on this kind of local-only expectation - the other was Edge defaulting to sending the contents of textboxes you’re filling out on webpages to the MS cloud for spelling and grammar checks. Thunderbird is still a sound recommendation, and unlike Microsoft, I trust that if I uncheck the telemetry box they’re not going to try to get me some other way.
Thunderbird doesn’t passphrase-protect your PGP key. Though you can set a general password… For something less important, its OpenPGP may be convenient, given that if you send/receive email normally, there is metadata problem anyway. But if you need to play it safe, you may want to use gpg offline and paste ascii.
Increasingly more and more “phoning home” is not exactly comfortable, either: thunderbird-settings.thunderbird(.)net location.services.mozilla(.)com addons.thunderbird(.)net versioncheck.addons.thunderbird(.)net services.addons.thunderbird(.)net, etc. Perhaps people today, both users and developers, feel something like this is normal, because things were already more or less like this when they were born.
Re: Micro$oft - It might be that after raped by Google, the society has been desensitized and stopped feeling anything about “minor details.” Why worrying now? You use a Windows 10 passport account (what is it called?) just to log on to “your own” computer and also a Gmail account anyway, right? So bad news is, your privacy is almost zero already.
I mean, duh!!
It’s a web version wrapped in some god-awful semi-native wrapper. Everything the app does is stored on the server. So, yes, like gmail, if you give it access to another IMAP account, the password is stored on the server BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS.
This isn’t a scandal. It shouldn’t be news.
The bigger discussion why are we pretending a server driven mail client is local?
That is the discussion. Microsoft is pretending by making it the upgrade path for two products which actually are local, and hoping users won’t notice.
At work I’ve been trying to use the new Outlook but the biggest gripe (other than this new news) is that it’s once again, a fucking Electron app and a lot of features have been cut.
I work at an MSP and people have mistakenly changed to the new Outlook, and then find things like their local mail rules stop working (because it doesn’t support those anymore), their custom accounting software that would compose an email in Outlook straight up won’t do that with new Outlook, for businesses it’s going to wreak havoc if Microsoft just force updates everyone.
At least m365 outlook / outlook 2016 counts as a different product as far as I’m aware, don’t think updating Mail will affect the real outlook
People complain about Apple a lot but I think Microsoft is a much more annoying company and it is very difficult to avoid their products/services. Same with google
There’s definitely things to dislike about Apple, but a lot of the complaining just feels like some childish console war.
Sure, if you only listen to and care about such petulant complaining.
There are actual gripes to be had that have broader implications.
I don’t get why people still use Microsoft services. How many data privacy scandals do we need, so they understand? Or do they still not care?
Because they’re forced to? They own a large slice of enterprise.
In taking about personal email. I also use outlook at work because I’m forced to, but I would never let these bastards touch my private Mails.
Even with search engines you can basically choose the Google index, the Microsoft index or the Amazon index
Yeah but at least Google offers a good search engine while sniffing all your data. Microsoft products are usually hot garbage, sniff your data and then loose it. Also what is the Amazon index?
It’s insanely cheap for what you get
Business wise it’s a no brainer
It’s honestly pretty expensive compared to the alternatives. If you compare a business setup with windows plus office etc plus the support fee you can get all of that for free plus a much lower support fee from a variety of independent companies with Linux and libreoffice. The typical office worker really doesn’t need the few corner cases where MS office maybe has an advantage. Honestly for a business I would even go with Google tools. Same data privacy issues, but at least the product works great. MS office in the cloud is hot garbage.
imnate compatibility with other organisations is a huge selling point.
For companies at a certain scale / within a certain field I don’t think it’s even up for discussion.
Well you got 15 words or so in before mentioning Linux.
What else would I mention? Some doesn’t have an office suite and figure is the only other competitor.
Because my line of work means I working corporations, and they ALWAYS run everything on the big names, Microsoft and Oracle.
At home, I have choice. At work, I must swallow.
Yeah companies that choose otherwise are rare. But they do exist.
If you’re working with clients that requires you to have security certifications it can be a real pain in the ass to certify your setup for everything vs just using the 365 stack.
True. Hate it when people want the cert instead of actual security. But I know how the world ticks. Corporate usually doesn’t give you a choice.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
And at work I don’t really care. It’s not my data they are “looking” at. It’s my employers.
I guess they won’t lose any corporate customers over this. The pure shit that it outlooks hasn’t scared anyone away yet.
I tried to delete ~7k emails today. I had to kill the process since it stopped responding. Wtf?
I have a government job (shocking to me still) and everything is on Exchange and 365. I don’t know why, other than “nobody ever got fired for recommending IBM.”
Common Microsoft L
Ubiquitous Microsoft L
Yet another reason to use Thunderbird or Evolution. There must finally be mobile devices with Linux that are usable.
Both of those are usable but that’s about it. I use Evolution because it integrates with online accounts service well and I don’t have to mine for contacts, but overall it’s a sorry state of email clients in Linux world. Geary had nice ideas for a while, but it’s also dreadfully optimized and development has kind of stopped.
It’s also not such an easy to problem to solve either. Whole Gnome ecosystem got a lot better with new and modern applications with sleek designs, but email clients remain a pain in the ass.