In the time it takes for all this to play out, all the farmers could recoup their potential losses and then some by replacing their JD investment with Kubota, who supports independent repair shops.
Of course, with the debt load most farmers carry, that’s easier said than done.
If the federal government set up a replacement program though, and shipped all the JD machinery to Ukraine where hackers know how to modify the software, everyone but JD would win.
empireOfLove2@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 19 Jun 02:23
nextcollapse
Kubota does not make equivalents to a lot of JD’s lineup. Their biggest tractor (M8) really only has the traction weight and horsepower of JD’s midsize tractors, which don’t cut it for a majority of US farms needing large tilling implements.
That doesn’t mean they can’t replace JD at the smaller scale stuff though, and honestly they should.
thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe
on 19 Jun 08:53
collapse
f the federal government set up a replacement program though, and shipped all the JD machinery to Ukraine where hackers know how to modify the software, everyone but JD would win.
Funny you should mention Ukraine, a decade ago (iirc) Ukraine hackers cracked the JD interface and started making available a tool for farmers to manage their own tractors - John Deere sued
I can’t believe how much progress the right to repair movement has made! It’s one of the few areas of societal change that I’m actually happy to hear about these days.
UltraMagnus0001@lemmy.world
on 19 Jun 02:57
nextcollapse
Somehow, especially with this administration it will fail because they’ll get a random donation
Problem was, your mom and pop repair shop would need a special $$$ ‘authorized’ dongle from the manufacturer to be able to diagnose problems beyond what plain OBD-II let you see. This effectively locked out third-party repair shops. People screamed and IIRC, a lot of car manufacturers backed down and just hardened remote access.
What Deere did was even more harsh. They tried to block off not only self repair, but third-party firmware that made the tractors work better, especially older ones that were out of warranty: schiller-tuning.com/…/john-deere
They’re trying to game copyright laws and click-through terms-of-service agreements to lock out third party repair.
This is a test case. If they lose, it’ll be a BIG win for Right to Repair laws, covering phones, laptops, consoles, etc.
rollerbang@lemmy.world
on 19 Jun 06:49
nextcollapse
Unfortunately consoles and phones tend to be exempt. For what reason other than lobbying I do not know.
What Deere did was even more harsh. They tried to block off not only self repair, but third-party firmware that made the tractors work better, especially older ones that were out of warranty.
That’s straight up a major federal crime in my country. So that should give Americans an idea how balanced their scale of justice is at the moment.
The consumer and supplier ALWAYS get equal and fair protection, lest a business becomes based on ripping people off with product instead of the product itself.
As somebody that works on a lot of Chryslers I can tell you I 100% despise theirb"security gateway" nonsense. Scanner has to be connected to vehicle and connected to wifi. You need a monthly subscription to access the security gateway otherwise it locks you out of the vehicle you can’t clear codes nevermind run bidirectional functions or program modules. If everybody had their own nonsense gateway like this, no shops would be able to stay in business everybody would have to go to their respective dealers. How many subscriptions can you expect a shop to hold? It’s pretty ridiculous. It also means if ur off roading in a wrangler and a fluke puts the PCM in limp mode, your not getting out of limp mode in the woods as you don’t in have wifi connection to security gateway. Undoing terminals doesn’t reset these issues anymore. Yes I have seen it happen where new JL wranglers have to lug out of the woods in limp mode over a fluke thing that just needed a computer reset. Yea ill stick to my 87 YJ when I go wheeling.
absquatulate@lemmy.world
on 19 Jun 05:12
nextcollapse
It’s probably a good time for any farmer to get off john deere either way.
nucleative@lemmy.world
on 19 Jun 05:32
nextcollapse
Ok I’m a proponent of right to repair and despise manufacturing techniques that lock repair shops out, make spare parts from 3rd parties impossible to install, or create planned obsolescence, or any shenanigans like this. It’s basically anti-everybody else and suggests weakness and fear instead of quality and strength.
But help me understand how it’s possible that our “free market” is enabling this, unless it’s just a controlled market charading as free?
Is John Deere giving the hardware away for free to those who sign long term subscriptions or something?
If John Deere is the Apple-esque ecosystem of tractors where is the “PC” diy manufacture and why doesn’t the market support them.
ToastedRavioli@midwest.social
on 19 Jun 06:59
nextcollapse
For one, there is no such thing as a “free” market in this world that is not a controlled market. Every market has controls placed on it.
“Free market” ideology is just anti-regulation ideology, which again is antithetical to how every market in the world actually operates. Which is why being against regulation and market controls wholesale is generally very stupid
There is nothing wrong with being against certain regulations for specific reasons, thats not what Im talking about. But rather being against regulation in general and imagining all regulation as inherently bad for the economy.
In this case, consumers having right to repair would be a regulation, and therefore doesnt fit in the ideology of people who jerk it to the idea of a “free” market because they dont understand how the economy actually works. Right to repair does not exist in a free market
thanksforallthefish@literature.cafe
on 19 Jun 08:48
collapse
But help me understand how it’s possible that our “free market” is enabling this, unless it’s just a controlled market charading as free?
There are very few markets in the US that actually achieve Adam Smith’s “perfect market” (perfect competition)
The more expensive the individual item, the harder it is for there to be competition (costs of standing up factories, distribution and support, low volumes of sales etc), it’s extremely expensive to set up in opposition to John Deere
There are other market statuses other than “controlled” and “free” - the vast majority of US markets are Oligopolies (few sellers many buyers). Processed / packaged foods for example - 99% of market volume is done by a couple of players.
A century ago there were many farm machinery manufacturers - the individual machines were less expensive in real terms, and the complexity much lower. A virtual monopoly (one very large and a few smaller players) has formed through insufficient regulation to protect competition - the big ones gobble up the small and competition gradually dwindles
threaded - newest
In the time it takes for all this to play out, all the farmers could recoup their potential losses and then some by replacing their JD investment with Kubota, who supports independent repair shops.
Of course, with the debt load most farmers carry, that’s easier said than done.
If the federal government set up a replacement program though, and shipped all the JD machinery to Ukraine where hackers know how to modify the software, everyone but JD would win.
Kubota does not make equivalents to a lot of JD’s lineup. Their biggest tractor (M8) really only has the traction weight and horsepower of JD’s midsize tractors, which don’t cut it for a majority of US farms needing large tilling implements.
That doesn’t mean they can’t replace JD at the smaller scale stuff though, and honestly they should.
Funny you should mention Ukraine, a decade ago (iirc) Ukraine hackers cracked the JD interface and started making available a tool for farmers to manage their own tractors - John Deere sued
vice.com/…/why-american-farmers-are-hacking-their…
…medium.com/about-those-kill-switched-ukrainian-t…
Although I suspect you already knew that :-)
Good. Fuck John Deere.
My thoughts exactly.
I can’t believe how much progress the right to repair movement has made! It’s one of the few areas of societal change that I’m actually happy to hear about these days.
Somehow, especially with this administration it will fail because they’ll get a random donation
Years ago, folks hacked a Jeep Wrangler remotely, with a WIRED reporter in the car: wired.com/…/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-highway/
That freaked the shit out of vehicle manufacturers. It led to encrypted CANBus messages: dev.to/living_syn/can-bus-message-security-3h43
Problem was, your mom and pop repair shop would need a special $$$ ‘authorized’ dongle from the manufacturer to be able to diagnose problems beyond what plain OBD-II let you see. This effectively locked out third-party repair shops. People screamed and IIRC, a lot of car manufacturers backed down and just hardened remote access.
What Deere did was even more harsh. They tried to block off not only self repair, but third-party firmware that made the tractors work better, especially older ones that were out of warranty: schiller-tuning.com/…/john-deere
They’re trying to game copyright laws and click-through terms-of-service agreements to lock out third party repair.
This is a test case. If they lose, it’ll be a BIG win for Right to Repair laws, covering phones, laptops, consoles, etc.
Unfortunately consoles and phones tend to be exempt. For what reason other than lobbying I do not know.
Then only thing that is exempt is the customer. Fuuuuuuuuuuck this company and any one like it.
That’s straight up a major federal crime in my country. So that should give Americans an idea how balanced their scale of justice is at the moment.
The consumer and supplier ALWAYS get equal and fair protection, lest a business becomes based on ripping people off with product instead of the product itself.
As somebody that works on a lot of Chryslers I can tell you I 100% despise theirb"security gateway" nonsense. Scanner has to be connected to vehicle and connected to wifi. You need a monthly subscription to access the security gateway otherwise it locks you out of the vehicle you can’t clear codes nevermind run bidirectional functions or program modules. If everybody had their own nonsense gateway like this, no shops would be able to stay in business everybody would have to go to their respective dealers. How many subscriptions can you expect a shop to hold? It’s pretty ridiculous. It also means if ur off roading in a wrangler and a fluke puts the PCM in limp mode, your not getting out of limp mode in the woods as you don’t in have wifi connection to security gateway. Undoing terminals doesn’t reset these issues anymore. Yes I have seen it happen where new JL wranglers have to lug out of the woods in limp mode over a fluke thing that just needed a computer reset. Yea ill stick to my 87 YJ when I go wheeling.
It’s probably a good time for any farmer to get off john deere either way.
These days they fancy themselves an AI and data-driven solutions company rather than an equipment manufacturer: forbes.com/…/the-amazing-ways-john-deere-uses-ai-…
To me that means they want to go the way of HP, enshittifying everything they have.
God HP is so fucking shit
Ok I’m a proponent of right to repair and despise manufacturing techniques that lock repair shops out, make spare parts from 3rd parties impossible to install, or create planned obsolescence, or any shenanigans like this. It’s basically anti-everybody else and suggests weakness and fear instead of quality and strength.
But help me understand how it’s possible that our “free market” is enabling this, unless it’s just a controlled market charading as free?
Is John Deere giving the hardware away for free to those who sign long term subscriptions or something?
If John Deere is the Apple-esque ecosystem of tractors where is the “PC” diy manufacture and why doesn’t the market support them.
For one, there is no such thing as a “free” market in this world that is not a controlled market. Every market has controls placed on it.
“Free market” ideology is just anti-regulation ideology, which again is antithetical to how every market in the world actually operates. Which is why being against regulation and market controls wholesale is generally very stupid
There is nothing wrong with being against certain regulations for specific reasons, thats not what Im talking about. But rather being against regulation in general and imagining all regulation as inherently bad for the economy.
In this case, consumers having right to repair would be a regulation, and therefore doesnt fit in the ideology of people who jerk it to the idea of a “free” market because they dont understand how the economy actually works. Right to repair does not exist in a free market
There are very few markets in the US that actually achieve Adam Smith’s “perfect market” (perfect competition)
The more expensive the individual item, the harder it is for there to be competition (costs of standing up factories, distribution and support, low volumes of sales etc), it’s extremely expensive to set up in opposition to John Deere
There are other market statuses other than “controlled” and “free” - the vast majority of US markets are Oligopolies (few sellers many buyers). Processed / packaged foods for example - 99% of market volume is done by a couple of players.
A century ago there were many farm machinery manufacturers - the individual machines were less expensive in real terms, and the complexity much lower. A virtual monopoly (one very large and a few smaller players) has formed through insufficient regulation to protect competition - the big ones gobble up the small and competition gradually dwindles
You mean it’s gaining tractors? 👉😎👉
I’ll see myself out
Pretty sure that was the author’s intent 😉