McDonalds removes AI drive-throughs after order errors
(www.bbc.com)
from Stopthatgirl7@lemmy.world to technology@lemmy.world on 18 Jun 23:16
https://lemmy.world/post/16683019
from Stopthatgirl7@lemmy.world to technology@lemmy.world on 18 Jun 23:16
https://lemmy.world/post/16683019
McDonald’s is removing artificial intelligence (AI) powered ordering technology from its drive-through restaurants in the US, after customers shared its comical mishaps online.
A trial of the system, which was developed by IBM and uses voice recognition software to process orders, was announced in 2019.
It has not proved entirely reliable, however, resulting in viral videos of bizarre misinterpreted orders ranging from bacon-topped ice cream to hundreds of dollars’ worth of chicken nuggets.
threaded - newest
Give me 5000 nuggets and bacon on muh ice cream.
drives away
Add that breakfast sauce as well. Or Big Mac sauce, your option.
Understanding the variety of speech over a drive-thru speaker can be difficult for a human with experience in the job. I can't see the current level of voice recognition matching it, especially if it's using LLMs for processing of what it managed to detect. If I'm placing a food order I don't need a LLM hallucination to try and fill in blanks of what it didn't convert correctly to tokens or wasn't trained on.
Yeah I’ve seen a lot of dumb LLM implementations, but this one may take the cake. I don’t get why tech leaders see “AI” and go yes, please throw that at everything. I know it’s the current buzzword but it’s been proven OVER AND OVER just in the past couple of months that it’s not anywhere close to ready for prime-time.
Especially in situations like this where it's quite possible it would cost less to go back to the basics of better pay and training to create willing workers. Maybe the initial cost was less than what they have to spend to improve things, but add in all the backtracking and cost of mistakes, I doubt it.
Most large corporations’ tech leaders don’t actually have any idea how tech works. They are being told that if they don’t have an AI plan their company will be obsoleted by their competitors that do; often by AI “experts” that also don’t have the slightest understanding of how LLMs actually work. And without that understanding companies are rushing to use AI to solve problems that AI can’t solve.
AI is not smart, it’s not magic, it can’t “think”, it can’t “reason” (despite what Open AI marketing claims) it’s just math that measures how well something fits the pattern of the examples it was trained on. Generative AIs like ChatGPT work by simply considering every possible word that could come next and ranking them by which one best matches the pattern.
If the input doesn’t resemble a pattern it was trained on, the best ranked response might be complete nonsense. ChatGPT was trained on enough examples that for anything you ask it there was probably something similar in its training dataset so it seems smarter than it is, but at the end of the day, it’s still just pattern matching.
If a company’s AI strategy is based on the assumption that AI can do what its marketing claims. We’re going to keep seeing these kinds of humorous failures.
AI (for now at least) can’t replace a human in any role that requires any degree of cognitive thinking skills… Of course we might be surprised at how few jobs actually require cognitive thinking skills. Given the current AI hypewagon, apparently CTO is one of those jobs that doesn’t require cognitive thinking skills.
Especially with vehicle and background noise like assholes blaring music while they’re second in line and maybe turning it down while ordering, or douchebags with loud trucks rolling coal in line
I used this system more than I care to admit and never had significant problems with it. My biggest issue was when trying to modify an existing item on the ticket.
1: Does IBM even have an LLM that would be considered “good” these days? Maybe they do, but I haven’t heard about it.
2: If this was in 2019, no wonder it flopped. Only very recently have we gotten to a point where this should’ve even been considered (and then, in my opinion given the current state of LLMs, dismissed).
3: More than 100 stores were testing this?? Did they not think to start with like, one store and see if that worked at all?
4: While a short-lived victory, this is still a win for people that rely on these jobs. Good for them.
Everybody do what I do.
“Hi, this is the virtual assistant. In a few words please describe what I can help with.”
“IvRjcsha^&@■♡●jzjcbsj”
“I’m sorry, I didn’t understand that.”
“IvRjcsha^&@■♡●jzjcbsj”
“I’m sorry, I didn’t understand that.”
“IvRjcsha^&@■♡●jzjcbsj”
“I’m sorry we’re having difficulties. Let me connect you with someone who can help”
Fuck off AI.
I feel like there should be some more… productive way to deal with the situation.
At least for calling a business, how about a law which requires companies who use automated phone services to send you to an actual person when pressing 0. Standardize the number to press and make it a requirement during business hours. It sucks getting trapped in an automated phone answering service when you 100% know that it can’t help you, only a customer service representative is able to deal with your situation.
The difference between what you want vs. what they are willing to provide is… their profit margins:-(.
To answer 1, remember IBM did Watson (the Jeopardy-playing AI that went on to be used in business intelligence software). They were ahead of the curve on certain kinds of AI.
But yeah I agree, this was a total pipe dream.
Speech recognition has existed far before 2019.
youtu.be/CH4kEalRelA
No LLMs were involved, as far as the available information goes.
slaps own cheek
NAW!!
Who needs Ronald McDonald when you have managers like them?
The McDonalds managers are nothing like Ronald McDonald. Ronald brings people smiles. Mcdonalds managers bring people sadness.
Both are clowns and bring people nightmares.
Pretty sure they all brought people diabetes and cancer
Apparently they don’t need him because Ronald was fired… Er, “retired,” in 2016.
The final vestige of the clown that I know of was his silhouette being used in the “throw this into a trash can and not on the damn ground” message on the bottom of their paper bags, but even that seems to be gone now.
That‘s what I was getting at actually. They rebranded when clown attacks went viral on the internet. The new image of the company and their now (in)famous jingle „I‘m lovin‘ it!“ was supposed to only launch in Germany for McCafés but promptly went global when they really needed a rebrand quick.
Lmao didn’t even know you could add butter to something at McDonald’s. If you can’t then it’s even funnier it decided that’s a thing.
They have butter for their hot cakes. Sounds like it was adding butter packets to the order.
Ahh I forgot about breakfast, that makes more sense. I was picturing butter drenched fires lol.
Ngl dipping the fries into their breakfast butter is so delicious and bad
I’d eat that. It sounds like poutine, but with butter instead of cheese and gravy.
I don’t like their fries much, but butter fixes everything.
For other items they’ll also do butter… and whatever this crap is:
<img alt="" src="https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/10ed9870-75a3-4f9f-ae73-a858e6b23543.jpeg">
I assume that’s supposed to be like hollandaise.
Yup, but with cheese? And I guess oil instead of butter…
Would this even be necessary for automated ordering anyway? Given that every company under the sun wants you to use some app of theirs these days, including fast food companies, Im kinda surprised they dont just get rid of the speaker/microphone system, and just put a sign with a qr code in front of the drive through telling you to download and use their app to put in a drive through order
Here in Canada at least they have both at the moment. You can use the drive thru as usual or order through the app and give them a code at the drive thru or just park in a numbered spot and have them bring it out to you without ever talking to someone
I saw a video of someone just trying to pick up in the drive thru after ordering through the app. The location did not have the numbered spots to use. The AI thing wouldn’t let them continue lol. It’s like McDonald’s doesn’t even fully understand their own systems in place.
Provided they’re fine with cutting off 100% of their business coming from customers older than 50, that’d probably work great. I don’t think they’re quite there yet.
Should have gone with the real AI solution: Actually Indian
That’s what Tim Hortons did in Canada!
Like, the drive through connects to some Indian call center?
No, they hire a lot of temporary foreign workers from India.
Amazon!
As someone who works with a few Indians, I’m a fan. They’re hard-working and reasonably easy to understand. Can’t be worse than AI, in any case.
I use the app to order then they bring it out to my car. No need to deal with people, fake or not.
It’s like those self service kiosks they have. The first version was broken most of the time, but they got the bugs worked out and after that those kiosks were everywhere.
I don’t know which versions I’ve used but I’ve never had a problem with them. The only thing that was confusing is it seemed like it was forcing me to upgrade to a medium combo but they do this in the drive thru too. It may be that they don’t have small combos. I wish fast food services would standardize on size terminology. Where’s ISO and ANSI when I need them for actually useful things.
You can tell the exec who greenlit this was a boomer because they went with IBM.
An AI drive through was always going to be difficult. IBM simply isn’t the company that can do stuff like that anymore, and they haven’t been for decades at this point.
“Nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM” - or something like that. It’s still a great defense when things go bust and they probably knew they would.
Around that time, Watson was the most public demonstration of AI.
“McDonalds removes AI drive-throughs after they realized AI is fucking stupid and shouldn’t be used by anyone”
There, fixed. Now can we fucking kill AI and make it illegal to use already? Fuck this shit.
Show us on this doll where the AI touched you
Wasn’t this just voice recognition for orders? We’ve been doing this for years without it being called AI, but I guess now the marketing people are in charge
A computer: does anything.
Tech journalists: is this AI?
Voice recognition is “AI“*, it even uses the same technical architecture as the most popular applications of AI - Artificial neural networks.
* - depending on the definition of course.
Well, given that we’re calling pretty much anything AI these days, it probably fits.
But I honestly don’t consider static models to be “AI,” I only consider it “AI” if it actively adjusts the model as it operates. Everything else is some specific field, like NLP, ML, etc. If it’s not “learning,” it’s just a statistical model that gets updated periodically.
New stuff gets called AI until it is useful, then we call it something else.
You know what they call alternative medicine when it works? Medicine.
Tim Minchin reference?
It’s more than voice recognition, since it must also parse a wide variety of sentence structure into a discreet order, as well as answer questions.
Honestly, it doesn’t need to be that complex:
There’s probably a dozen or so more, but it really shouldn’t need to understand natural language, it can just work off keywords.
You can do that kind of imposed structure if it’s an internal tool used by employees. But if the public is using it, it has better be able to parse whatever the consumer is saying. Somebody will say “I want a burger and a coke, but hold the mustard. And add some fries. No make it two of each.” And it won’t fit your predefined syntax.
Idk, you could probably just show the grammar on the screen, and also allow manual entry (if insider) or fallback to a human.
That way you’d get errors (sorry, I didn’t understand that) instead of wrong orders with a pretty high degree of confidence. As long as there’s a fallback, it should be fine.
Anyway, that’s my take. I’m probably wrong though since I don’t deal with retail customers.
Here’s what you do: You have the AI take the order, but the human checks each item. They’ll have enough time to work out the kinks
That is then not a technology ready for mass use. That would be McDonalds paying IBM to let it beta test (or alpha test it seems) its software for them.
And the only way to check the order would be to listen to each order and confirm the order is correct - so totally duplicating the AI’s job. It then becomes “what’s the point” for McDonalds?
AI tools at present are broken and not fit for purpose.
AI is a crapshoot, agree. But there has to be more testing before PR disasters like this happen. That isn’t “being my suppliers beta test”, rather sensible project managers not mindlessly putting it out there because the supplier said it worked. Now people are laughing at McDonald’s on top of their cost saving operations being delayed. But I agree overall that AI sucks to replace humans. I’m just criticizing McDonald’s jumping the gun
Lol, they do this already with humans, and have done so for more than a decade. Back when I worked in the MCD kitchen, wed always have someone with the drive thru headset on to hear what’s coming and to make sure the back drive drone wasn’t a complete moron (like the kid [hired before me] who in all seriousness asked me if there was bacon on a BLT, then completely missed the sarcasm in a drawn out “Noooooooo” and proceeded to tell the customer 🙄)
It’s because everyone is trying to use generic models for every task which is obviously terrible. If you create a custom, naroscope model, you can do some surprising things. But that takes knowledgeable employees, time, and money, none of which companies want to do. Train ann llm exclusively on recordings of drive-thru interactions and it would probably end up being quite good at it.
I mean it wouldn’t hurt to also use some microphones that don’t sound worse than Dollar Store Windows 98 white beige desktop microphone but that’s a different conversation
You don’t need or benefit from an LLM.
You just need voice recognition that works properly.
AI is going the same way as self-driving cars…
It has the power to bring such amazing change, but greed is poisoning the technology, and it’s being weaponized against the lower and middle class in disguising ways.
Shoutout to Elon for fucking up self driving cars by releasing cheap, imitation technology after his competitors spent literal decades carefully testing and perfecting genuine solutions.
Greed is why we can’t have nice things… Everyone should be angrier about this stuff.
AI is and always has been a bullshit technology. Its no where near as capable as its proponents in tech industry have been claiming. Its all driven by greed to feed into a stock price frenzy but its the emperor’s new clothes. In the future it may be something useful but at present even the tools that exist are unreliable and broken.
Self Drive Cars is different, very much a Tesla issue rather than generalised. Tesla has a first move advantage but then Elon Musk blew it by forcing his engineers to cut back on sensors and tech to save money because he knows best. Other self drive manufacturers are doing well and even have licenses to test their fully featured systems in multiple locations.
AI is a generally crap technology (maybe in the future it will be something useful). Self Drive is a generally myself up technology, except at Tesla where they went for the crap unworkable version.
Everyone where told me it was fake marketing hype.
I love how the enemy is all powerful and easily defeatable at the same time. LLMs are singularity creating AIs, useless, hallucinating, job destroyers, potentially do everything, all at once.
Maybe different people are saying those different things.
Sure. It’s all an opinion. That makes sense. Thank you for explaining how it isn’t based on logic, data, or really any methodology at all. Just people arguing chocolate or vanilla or strawberry ice cream.
Everything is an opinion. You’re making bets on future outcomes.
That doesn’t mean that no one knows what they’re talking about.
No. Everything is not an opinion. There is the real universe.
You’re projecting the future. It fundamentally cannot be factual. It’s a guess. Some guesses (that LLMs are a deeply flawed technology) come from a place of understanding how shit works that other guesses (LLMs are magic) don’t, but the actual future impact of the tech inherently must be an opinion, regardless of how well informed it is. There is no objective truth.
(All of this is without the fact that very little of the past is super concrete either. We know specific things happened with relatively high certainty, but why is, again, always a guess.)
Hmm is this a true statement no matter what people think of it?
It has not happened yet. By definition there is no “reality”.
There are merely informed opinions, uninformed opinions, and fraudulent opinions.
It’s a true statement for any future event.
It doesn’t soften the fact that opinions can be stupid and uninformed.
I see. So you say that any prediction about the future is subjective, except of course this prediction that you are making now? Every rule has en exception, except this rule, but if it doesn’t it does and if it does than it doesnt.
Not to date you too badly but 2500 years ago is when we figured out that everythinf is subjective leads to contradictions.
No, that’s not even sort of what I said. The fact that there is no inherent source of truth to compare to does not give license to idiotic takes. It doesn’t invalidate people pointing out that an opinion is idiotic. It’s simply an acknowledgement that multiple intelligent opinions are possible.
There’s inherent uncertainty to everything, down to such an extreme level that predicting individual particles’ behavior has to be probabilistic. The existence of that uncertainty doesn’t prevent some statements from being stupid and wrong.
So you are saying I was wrong before?
Self-driving cars are AI. And they are butting against the Pareto Principle.
Ah yes, give me more companies using AI, trying to replace their employees and then realizing it doesn’t work
How come Walmart gets shit for self checkout but McDonald’s doesn’t get absolutely fucking roasted for Ai
I honestly prefer self-checkout. I may not be as fast as the cashier, but I am reasonably fast and I don’t have to talk to anyone.
I’d probably feel the same about fast food orders. I don’t think the same self-checkout system would work, but I’d probably use my phone if it was easy and I didn’t need a special app. Just let me scan a code and enter my order from a parking lot space. That way I still don’t need to talk to anyone, no issues with crappy mics or AI, etc. I’m guessing everyone would be happier (workers don’t need to intuit crackly mics, I can check if it comes with pickles, etc).
Wouldn’t it make more sense to just drop the speakers and make them use mobile apps only?
No, that would involve telling people to use a cellphone in a running car. Massive liability
…which is why I park first at the chain before I order. You right its a liability, but they’re gonna run out of options if they can’t afford someone to run the speaker, be it AI, someone in a call center, or the restaurant.
Why would they not be able to afford someone…? And run out of “options”…?
Not if the car is stopped. Here’s how it should work:
If you want to talk to someone, walk inside, no need for a drive-thru window at all. That’s basically how the old drive-ins worked, adjusted for modern tools.
You know I am good with just getting my ass out of the car and walking a short distance to get my 4000 calorie meal. I am fine without implementing an entire protocol
It’s the same as the order pickup they have, just with info about what stall you’re in. That’s really it, and it would allow eliminating the entire drive-thru experience, along with all the car idling and whatnot.
Are they also going to remove the human order takers due to number of errors or…. Because they never get shit right, then I correct them, then the kitchen kids get it wrong, occasionally i go back around to ask for it as I ordered, and sometimes the second time around it’s correct
These large companies really need to learn that AI isn’t a good tool for black and white decisions.
Right now I’m working on a system with drones and image recognition for farmers to prioritise where to use pesticides, in order to decrease the use of pesticides in the EU. For these things AI systems work really well, since it’s just prioritising regions.
It’s a bad idea to use it to make discrete decisions.
I disagree. Classification in combintion wo ith a confidence score is a viable use case for AI.
you know that the confidence value is generated by the ai itself right? So it could still spew out bullshit with high confidence. The confidence score doesn’t really help much
But the same holds for regression, which you seem to favour. So why do you feel that regression is so much better than classification (which is, when combined with a confidence score, basically regression)?
The problem is that they are just slapping a general use AI onto this and trying to call it a day. Had they created a completely custom model using exclusively recordings of drive-thru interactions it probably would have gone just fine
Unfortunately this is possible.
I think it’s for the better that companies are having these blunders though. It’ll generate some amount of pushback and keep AI from taking over workplaces.
Turns out customers weren’t ordering the McDeadly neurotoxin
Voice recognition vs. Download an app where you can’t make mistakes (and a giant corporation can harvest your data). Hmm, I wonder which mcway mcdonalds will go?
“Will you be using our app today?”
Hey, McDonalds, I got a general AI that can understand human speech.
It’s located between my neck and the top of my head, and it costs $25/hr for fuel consumption.
Isn’t this just voice recognition software?
and a large orange drink
I got my fried shoes but no ketchup!
Bubble burst?