90% of people won’t. The remaining 10% will be flagged and can be scrutinized more manually (without any violence which will get into news). It’s the way any surveillance works. Which is why non-backdoored e2e encryption for everyone in everything everywhere and death of centralized services are important to fight surveillance.
It’s like flowers covering body parts on photos, we kinda guess what’s there. If the whole photo is covered with flowers, that’s another story.
MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world
on 19 Jun 13:14
collapse
Wait till they make TOR illegal and force people to mask TOR traffic to look like HTTPS. Then produce a stream of rubbish alongside said HTTPS traffic so as to fool authorities. Lol at them thinking non-profit tech gurus are going to give them cake
My third sentence still applies. Do you realize that the situation presented is one with backdoors on every device and criminal responsibility for bypassing\removing those?
MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world
on 19 Jun 16:07
collapse
Yes, and this will affect everyone. Which is why I’m hopeful that organisations like the EFF, the TOR browser’s foundation, Graphene OS and the general Android community comes up with something that will prevent this. I hope this will push for greater efforts in obfuscation of traffic from TOR, I2P, Freenet, Wireguard and the like along with better education amongst the general population.
You could call me naive though, I suppose. Perhaps I expect too much
It’s nothing to do with stopping pedos. The people pushing this year-in and year-out don’t care THAT much about pedos. It’s not a cause that’s motivating enough for them to be putting in so much effort, trying to sneak in legislation after being repeatedly rebuffed.
unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de
on 19 Jun 11:05
collapse
Its insane to me how it was entirely proven that this whole political movement is a giant fear mongering psyop and despite that its still being discussed at all.
It’s rather “tell me who’s your friend and I’ll tell you who you are”, most of specific people involved in pushing this have a history with authoritarian regimes, some genocidal.
Many things may change overnight.
It’s not a cause that’s motivating enough for them to be putting in so much effort, trying to sneak in legislation after being repeatedly rebuffed.
Until those trying are in jail explaining their motivations in detail, this won’t stop.
It’s really all about having a way to get past encryption so they can spy on everyone indiscriminately. It’s pushed that it’s to save kids and unmask pedos, but the people in charge know the pedophiles are their rich donors.
It’s about controlling opposition and making sure the wealthy can stay on top. Imagine if no small business can hide their information from their competitors.
pineapplelover@lemm.ee
on 19 Jun 05:43
nextcollapse
And on Tuesday, 37 Members of Parliament signed an open letter to the Council of Europe urging legislators to reject Chat Control.
“We explicitly warn that the obligation to systematically scan encrypted communication, whether called ‘upload-moderation’ or ‘client-side scanning,’ would not only break secure end-to-end encryption, but will to a high probability also not withstand the case law of the European Court of Justice,” the MEPs said. “Rather, such an attack would be in complete contrast to the European commitment to secure communication and digital privacy, as well as human rights in the digital space.”
Yeah, that’s the point. What do guns have to do with encryption? I could say “If you outlaw beards, only outlaws will have beards” and it will make as much sense as your original post. I appreciate that you have a weird fetish for violence but you don’t have to shoe-horn it into every conversation.
Privacy and guns can be used for defense. Beards generally don’t affect that (though Alexander was of a different opinion and made his soldiers shave so that they couldn’t be grabbed by the beard ; I think same was the reasoning for Roman soldiers shaving their beards and other hair).
You can’t murder a room full of children with pgp.
I’ll just say it again in the hope that it might dawn on you that the two things are not even remotely similar enough that you can say “this also works for guns”.
What? That they can both be used for defense? Name something that couldn’t ever be used for defense. Your comparison is pointless because the only trait they share is one which is also shared by pretty much everything else on the planet. Like beards, to bring up an earlier example.
You can be anti-guns but he is still right. Criminals do have weapons where I live, even though it’s illegal. Fortunately, we don’t have many criminals since the country is rich
RogueBanana@lemmy.zip
on 19 Jun 16:44
nextcollapse
Unironically yes. Out of 1000 crime news I hear about here, maybe one of them is about gun violence. Also I have never ever heard about mass killings here like USA seems to have every week.
Lol is it really that hard for you to believe? I am not just talking about media channels, also just word around the block, multiple YouTube channels and such.
That’s what I think. That’s what I observed (anecdotally) and what statistics show. When the sentence for having a gun is higher than robbery or drug dealing or whatever, even criminals avoid that shit.
Why would you think criminals DO have guns in other countries?
UltraGiGaGigantic@lemm.ee
on 21 Jun 04:04
collapse
Uhh have you heard? Constitutional rights are ala cart now! Just pick and choose what you want! No big deal.
I’ve always been reluctant to rely on papers like any constitution as a base for my perceived rights.
Maybe as an argument, in the sense of “smart people have said that it should be and made some points in its favor”.
But in general it’s a horrid mistake to rely on a paper. Some people you haven’t given any consent will stamp a few saying that you are a slave and oops.
The reality is that there’s no way to consistently defend a right suppressed by legal arguments. If you can check the chain of laws giving you some right or taking it, you’ll always come to the point where it’s just “we all decide that’s law” and you were not part of that decision. And if you go the opposite way and just accept what’s made law, then you are dropping the idea of rights in its entirety, making decisions made by someone else a law for you.
My point is that this is unsolvable and one can’t replace good and evil with legal arguments. Laws will never be sufficiently good for that, even constitutional laws.
So I’m for right to arm oneself, but I don’t think there’s any magic allowing to universally prove that a thing is legally right or wrong.
Which is why, again, a journalism which isn’t outrageous is just public relations, a protest that doesn’t harm economy and break laws is just a demonstration, an a principle which can be overridden by a law or a threat of force is just virtue signalling.
If u make privacy illegal then only cops, spooks, governments, billionaires and other criminals will have privacy. FTFY.
shiftymccool@programming.dev
on 19 Jun 10:08
nextcollapse
Yep, you just said the same thing with more words 😁
PM_Your_Nudes_Please@lemmy.world
on 19 Jun 17:49
collapse
If u make privacy illegal then only cops criminals, spooks criminals, governments criminals, billionaires criminals and other criminals will have privacy. FTFY.
FTFY.
hoshikarakitaridia@lemmy.world
on 19 Jun 05:59
nextcollapse
What a bullshit law. If things have flaws, they don’t just have flaws for the benefit of police or government agencies. They have flaws for anyone that knows them or discovers them. This stuff will still be accessible for smart criminals, even more so in corrupt governments.
An encryption with exploits is not an encryption, it’s a time bomb and it will blow up in your face at the worst moment.
rottingleaf@lemmy.zip
on 19 Jun 07:36
nextcollapse
They want that. It’s no coincidence that people pushing this are all unelected.
It is a criminal takeover of the EU in its final stages (Europeans like to think they are very smart and have lots of strategic depth, but I’ll repeat that these are the final stages of it).
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
on 19 Jun 13:29
collapse
And we have plenty of evidence of corrupt police colluding with crime rings for profit. I don’t see why it would be different here…
bazingabot@lemmy.world
on 19 Jun 06:03
nextcollapse
Definitely not my representatives in the EU…and all in front our wonderful Ursula von der Leyen, a personified political failure. And why this constant fake argument of child abuse?.. the real argument is that politicians and governments want to spy on EU inhabitants…time to vote differently…if this still helps anything in the EU …
catalog3115@lemmy.world
on 19 Jun 07:10
nextcollapse
It’s highly likely that these laws will be passed because more people are voting for right wing leaders in EU, Right wing heavily supports this. If EU sets the example soon the whole world will follow.
essteeyou@lemmy.world
on 19 Jun 08:01
nextcollapse
Not just in the EU…
disconnectikacio@lemmy.world
on 19 Jun 10:26
nextcollapse
they call themselves “right wing”, but they arent. See here in orbanistan (hungary) orban and all his comrades were commie state party functionals, or were at least the part in the commie youth organization. Also they vote down 23 times (as of now) the disclosure of the commie state party agent files, serving commie dictatorships like PRC, and the soviet union mourner putin, etc. Just like AFD in germany, etc…
BananaTrifleViolin@lemmy.world
on 19 Jun 08:56
nextcollapse
Regardless of the supposed motivations, this is mass surveillance on a scale never seen before. The EU wants to become China 2.0.
volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
on 19 Jun 14:47
nextcollapse
Why the need to compare to China though? People can understand that mass surveillance is bad without resorting to “China bad”. Go ask Snowdon if China is the mother of all surveillance.
gallopingsnail@lemmy.sdf.org
on 19 Jun 16:28
nextcollapse
"Bruh why would you compare them to the largest surveillance state in the world bro. Saying how the EU would be more like the the most widely-known example of government surveillance and blocking of Internet traffic is just saying China bad, bro.
inb4 “bUt mUriCa bAd ToO”
UltraGiGaGigantic@lemm.ee
on 21 Jun 03:57
collapse
Idk why communists defend China’s every move. Communism can be defended without excusing China’s authoritarian practices. I have Chinese friends living in China who tell me all kinds of horrific stories that they’ve had to deal with because of China’s mass surveillance (and more). That isn’t western propaganda, that’s people’s lived experiences. There is literally a “Great Firewall of China” lmao. China IS bad when it comes to their mass surveillance and suppression of speech. USA IS bad when it comes to their letting giant corporations have such free rein that it makes us all into serfs. Why compare to China? Because China is a great comparison.
volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
on 19 Jun 17:38
nextcollapse
How am I defending china? I just don’t see the need to go “oh look like X country” whenever the EU or the US do something bad. We’re plenty bad ourselves
Let’s say both then. Both the US and China are surveillance states, and that makes them both bad.
Btw just so you are aware, there is some underlying animosity toward people who defend China here. Usually people who defend China are just trying to deflect and try to say things like “BUT America does bad things!” While trying to make it seem like that somehow absolves China of genocide and mass surveillance.
The hard part for those people to grasp is that Americans are usually happy to say yes, America sucks. Any country that engages in those actions sucks. Diehard tankies on the other hand are incapable of seeing flaws in China/Russia/whatever country they feel the need to defend.
raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world
on 19 Jun 18:01
collapse
Let’s say both then. Both the US and China are surveillance states, and that makes them both bad.
/signed
But also: all five-eyes states, and then a couple more. With western European countries trying hard to compete in the “who can fuck their citizens the mostest the bestest”
Ibuthyr@discuss.tchncs.de
on 20 Jun 12:19
nextcollapse
It’s a language many people understand. I mean, you have to be extremely ignorant if you think China has good privacy laws implemented. Everyone knows what a nightmare that country is in that regard, ergo no one wants to be like them.
I put “communists” in scare quotes when they’re defending every action from a state capitalist nation that produces hundreds of billionaires.
LoreleiSankTheShip@lemmy.ml
on 20 Jun 14:52
collapse
As someone who doesn’t know much about China aside from the high competitiveness of their academic environment, I’m curious as to what sort of issues your friends face due to surveillance? Does it affect their day to day lives? Or does it just foster an atmosphere of “be careful what you say”?
threaded - newest
If it’s client side then pedos will just strip it out and keep on going. It’s a giant waste of time.
Or, you know, trivially circumvent it? Compress media, break up URLs? I don’t understand how this could possibly be effective.
It can’t be effective. The risk of false-positives is huge.
And all but guaranteed. I know I would protest this, and I’m sure there are enough like me that this would waste a lot of time for police.
Any circumvention argument misses the point.
90% of people won’t. The remaining 10% will be flagged and can be scrutinized more manually (without any violence which will get into news). It’s the way any surveillance works. Which is why non-backdoored e2e encryption for everyone in everything everywhere and death of centralized services are important to fight surveillance.
It’s like flowers covering body parts on photos, we kinda guess what’s there. If the whole photo is covered with flowers, that’s another story.
Wait till they make TOR illegal and force people to mask TOR traffic to look like HTTPS. Then produce a stream of rubbish alongside said HTTPS traffic so as to fool authorities. Lol at them thinking non-profit tech gurus are going to give them cake
You are answering a comment explaining why this is bullshit. “Gurus” are sufficiently rare to have other kinds of surveillance.
For some reason in every bad event there are plenty of people thinking evil is stupid.
What I’m trying to say is said gurus will build something that the masses can use (to the extent of the masses that know what Threema and Briar are).
My third sentence still applies. Do you realize that the situation presented is one with backdoors on every device and criminal responsibility for bypassing\removing those?
Yes, and this will affect everyone. Which is why I’m hopeful that organisations like the EFF, the TOR browser’s foundation, Graphene OS and the general Android community comes up with something that will prevent this. I hope this will push for greater efforts in obfuscation of traffic from TOR, I2P, Freenet, Wireguard and the like along with better education amongst the general population.
You could call me naive though, I suppose. Perhaps I expect too much
Police checks your phone and finds the banned piece of software.
Or your ISP detects traffic from something which is not reported by the backdoor on your phone.
There are so many ways.
There is no technological solution to a power problem. Power solutions to power problems include riots, revolutions, assassinations …
Oh, so TOR, Graphene OS and Signal will be banned then? We’re going towards a dystopia where the police control which apps you can and can’t install?
Yeah I see your point
Well, they are talking about “local scanning” or something, so that’s what I’d imagine.
I thought they wanted applications to scan and send data to them, but perhaps the Android OS itself isn’t too far of a reach
I mean…
I know we are heading in that direction but I didn’t expect this to happen so soon. I thought it would be beyond my lifetime
<img alt="" src="https://bohemianweasel.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/2017-lotr-frodo-gandalf1.jpg">
It’s nothing to do with stopping pedos. The people pushing this year-in and year-out don’t care THAT much about pedos. It’s not a cause that’s motivating enough for them to be putting in so much effort, trying to sneak in legislation after being repeatedly rebuffed.
The real people pushing this are lobbyists working for the companies that sell the monitoring software.
And for anyone wondering btw, this is actually a proven fact and not just a guess.
This article in german talks about the connections that the people pushing this have to the relevant tech industry companies.
Oh wow I didn’t know. Fuck Ashton Kutcher!
Its insane to me how it was entirely proven that this whole political movement is a giant fear mongering psyop and despite that its still being discussed at all.
It’s rather “tell me who’s your friend and I’ll tell you who you are”, most of specific people involved in pushing this have a history with authoritarian regimes, some genocidal.
Many things may change overnight.
Until those trying are in jail explaining their motivations in detail, this won’t stop.
It’s really all about having a way to get past encryption so they can spy on everyone indiscriminately. It’s pushed that it’s to save kids and unmask pedos, but the people in charge know the pedophiles are their rich donors.
It’s about controlling opposition and making sure the wealthy can stay on top. Imagine if no small business can hide their information from their competitors.
It’s not just about wealth.
I hope to fuck this shit won’t get passed
As your own quote says, we can at least hope that if it passes, it will be found illegal by the courts and get rescinded.
If u make privacy illegal then only criminals will have privacy.
That also works for guns.
You can’t murder a room full of children with pgp.
I already have a chainsaw for that kind of thing, that does this have to do with guns and encryption?
Yeah, that’s the point. What do guns have to do with encryption? I could say “If you outlaw beards, only outlaws will have beards” and it will make as much sense as your original post. I appreciate that you have a weird fetish for violence but you don’t have to shoe-horn it into every conversation.
Privacy and guns can be used for defense. Beards generally don’t affect that (though Alexander was of a different opinion and made his soldiers shave so that they couldn’t be grabbed by the beard ; I think same was the reasoning for Roman soldiers shaving their beards and other hair).
I’ll just say it again in the hope that it might dawn on you that the two things are not even remotely similar enough that you can say “this also works for guns”.
I’ve already described specifically how they are similar, it might dawn on you that repetition doesn’t strengthen an argument. Not hopeful though.
What? That they can both be used for defense? Name something that couldn’t ever be used for defense. Your comparison is pointless because the only trait they share is one which is also shared by pretty much everything else on the planet. Like beards, to bring up an earlier example.
They are both intended for defense.
I think it’s safe to say guns are an offensive weapon
Say that again after you sit the same IT exams as I did.
Not with that kind of attitude!
Only in the only country that believes that.
What? You think criminals don’t have guns in yours?
By the way, a country can’t believe anything, it’s an artificial concept on a map.
So is obtuseness and pedantry.
Sorry I made you fail.
You can be anti-guns but he is still right. Criminals do have weapons where I live, even though it’s illegal. Fortunately, we don’t have many criminals since the country is rich
I really don’t think you need to mansplain shit.
I don’t care if you are a woman, I didn’t even know. Also, you are the one being wrong
Sorry for your loss.
You already said that to the other guy, and it was already ridiculous back then
Sorry, once again.
You should ask chatgpt, it would provide better and more constructive comments
The voice of experience, I see.
I AM RUBBER, YOU ARE GLUE
That’s a weird answer, I didn’t say that obtuseness\pedantry can believe in something.
You made nobody fail, accusing someone of these traits just means their correctness is socially unpleasant for you.
Sorry for your loss.
Unironically yes. Out of 1000 crime news I hear about here, maybe one of them is about gun violence. Also I have never ever heard about mass killings here like USA seems to have every week.
Look up stats, because what’s reported in media is always quite different.
Lol is it really that hard for you to believe? I am not just talking about media channels, also just word around the block, multiple YouTube channels and such.
Not that hard. I’d say organized crime will have guns regardless. Usual hooligans will do with many things one can imagine.
Yes and those organised crimes are almost non existant and not even close to the violence in US.
That’s what I think. That’s what I observed (anecdotally) and what statistics show. When the sentence for having a gun is higher than robbery or drug dealing or whatever, even criminals avoid that shit.
Why would you think criminals DO have guns in other countries?
Uhh have you heard? Constitutional rights are ala cart now! Just pick and choose what you want! No big deal.
I’ve always been reluctant to rely on papers like any constitution as a base for my perceived rights.
Maybe as an argument, in the sense of “smart people have said that it should be and made some points in its favor”.
But in general it’s a horrid mistake to rely on a paper. Some people you haven’t given any consent will stamp a few saying that you are a slave and oops.
The reality is that there’s no way to consistently defend a right suppressed by legal arguments. If you can check the chain of laws giving you some right or taking it, you’ll always come to the point where it’s just “we all decide that’s law” and you were not part of that decision. And if you go the opposite way and just accept what’s made law, then you are dropping the idea of rights in its entirety, making decisions made by someone else a law for you.
My point is that this is unsolvable and one can’t replace good and evil with legal arguments. Laws will never be sufficiently good for that, even constitutional laws.
So I’m for right to arm oneself, but I don’t think there’s any magic allowing to universally prove that a thing is legally right or wrong.
Which is why, again, a journalism which isn’t outrageous is just public relations, a protest that doesn’t harm economy and break laws is just a demonstration, an a principle which can be overridden by a law or a threat of force is just virtue signalling.
If u make privacy illegal then only cops, spooks, governments, billionaires and other criminals will have privacy. FTFY.
Yep, you just said the same thing with more words 😁
FTFY.
What a bullshit law. If things have flaws, they don’t just have flaws for the benefit of police or government agencies. They have flaws for anyone that knows them or discovers them. This stuff will still be accessible for smart criminals, even more so in corrupt governments.
An encryption with exploits is not an encryption, it’s a time bomb and it will blow up in your face at the worst moment.
They want that. It’s no coincidence that people pushing this are all unelected.
It is a criminal takeover of the EU in its final stages (Europeans like to think they are very smart and have lots of strategic depth, but I’ll repeat that these are the final stages of it).
And we have plenty of evidence of corrupt police colluding with crime rings for profit. I don’t see why it would be different here…
Definitely not my representatives in the EU…and all in front our wonderful Ursula von der Leyen, a personified political failure. And why this constant fake argument of child abuse?.. the real argument is that politicians and governments want to spy on EU inhabitants…time to vote differently…if this still helps anything in the EU …
Preaching to the choir
SLAMMED
M-M-M-M-M-M-MONSTER KILL-Kill-kill
It’s highly likely that these laws will be passed because more people are voting for right wing leaders in EU, Right wing heavily supports this. If EU sets the example soon the whole world will follow.
Not just in the EU…
they call themselves “right wing”, but they arent. See here in orbanistan (hungary) orban and all his comrades were commie state party functionals, or were at least the part in the commie youth organization. Also they vote down 23 times (as of now) the disclosure of the commie state party agent files, serving commie dictatorships like PRC, and the soviet union mourner putin, etc. Just like AFD in germany, etc…
Authoritarians all of them
no true scotsman fallacy
Right wingers and authoritarians get mixed up a lot.
Communism is when you perpetuate the class relations of your country in an authoritarian manner. Oh wait, or was it backwards…
I can’t take anyone who says “commie” seriously. It’s like hearing an adult say they need to go potty.
Why? They never been communist, because they never believed in anything except of greed, authority. Thats why they are just commies
Go vote what left parties in your country think about it. It’s likely the same.
that’s what you get for having 2/3 right wing parties in the EU parliament
It’s not 2/3
Regardless of the supposed motivations, this is mass surveillance on a scale never seen before. The EU wants to become China 2.0.
Why the need to compare to China though? People can understand that mass surveillance is bad without resorting to “China bad”. Go ask Snowdon if China is the mother of all surveillance.
"Bruh why would you compare them to the largest surveillance state in the world bro. Saying how the EU would be more like the the most widely-known example of government surveillance and blocking of Internet traffic is just saying China bad, bro.
inb4 “bUt mUriCa bAd ToO”
Everybody Sucks Here
Idk why communists defend China’s every move. Communism can be defended without excusing China’s authoritarian practices. I have Chinese friends living in China who tell me all kinds of horrific stories that they’ve had to deal with because of China’s mass surveillance (and more). That isn’t western propaganda, that’s people’s lived experiences. There is literally a “Great Firewall of China” lmao. China IS bad when it comes to their mass surveillance and suppression of speech. USA IS bad when it comes to their letting giant corporations have such free rein that it makes us all into serfs. Why compare to China? Because China is a great comparison.
How am I defending china? I just don’t see the need to go “oh look like X country” whenever the EU or the US do something bad. We’re plenty bad ourselves
Let’s say both then. Both the US and China are surveillance states, and that makes them both bad.
Btw just so you are aware, there is some underlying animosity toward people who defend China here. Usually people who defend China are just trying to deflect and try to say things like “BUT America does bad things!” While trying to make it seem like that somehow absolves China of genocide and mass surveillance.
The hard part for those people to grasp is that Americans are usually happy to say yes, America sucks. Any country that engages in those actions sucks. Diehard tankies on the other hand are incapable of seeing flaws in China/Russia/whatever country they feel the need to defend.
/signed
But also: all five-eyes states, and then a couple more. With western European countries trying hard to compete in the “who can fuck their citizens the mostest the bestest”
It’s a language many people understand. I mean, you have to be extremely ignorant if you think China has good privacy laws implemented. Everyone knows what a nightmare that country is in that regard, ergo no one wants to be like them.
Because it’s a comparison most people understand and it put things in perspective. Seems obvious enough to me.
I put “communists” in scare quotes when they’re defending every action from a state capitalist nation that produces hundreds of billionaires.
As someone who doesn’t know much about China aside from the high competitiveness of their academic environment, I’m curious as to what sort of issues your friends face due to surveillance? Does it affect their day to day lives? Or does it just foster an atmosphere of “be careful what you say”?
Durrrrr
China is bad. It is a brutal dictatorship in the middle of committing 2 genocides. Uyghurs and Falun Gong.
How’s that related to this post
China is surveilling its people to then have unliked people disappear.
Again, how is that relevant to EU surveillance
It’s really disappointing
<img alt="" src="https://reddthat.com/pictrs/image/9262a927-5d53-4658-b1b8-8a8983d0e2ab.png">
youtu.be/q3D8670smTI?t=16s
I rate this meme accurate. Also, why are countries more free on the internet than america?
-concerned american
Sneaky dickens…
“Slammed!”
Signal SLAMS EU bill!
Can we get a single journalist that can write a headline?