autotldr@lemmings.world
on 20 Apr 2024 23:01
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This is the best summary I could come up with:
It would mark the first time ever the U.S. government has passed a law that could shut down an entire social media platform, setting the stage for what is expected to be a protracted legal battle.
“It is unfortunate that the House of Representatives is using the cover of important foreign and humanitarian assistance to once again jam through a ban bill that would trample the free speech rights of 170 million Americans,” said TikTok spokesman Alex Haurek.
National security officials in Washington have feared that the Chinese government could use TikTok to promote propaganda aimed at interfering in U.S. elections, or surveil some of the 170 million Americans who use the app every month.
While there has been no evidence made public that Chinese government officials have accessed Americans’ information through TikTok, the idea that China has the theoretical ability to weaponize an app used by half of America has been enough to set off an all-out crackdown.
And during the Trump administration’s campaign against TikTok, China added content-recommendation algorithms to its export-control list, meaning selling the technology would require the blessing of the Chinese government.
“The Chinese said very firmly this month at senior levels that they won’t let the algorithm be sold and without it, it’s an empty deal,” Lewis told NPR.
The original article contains 701 words, the summary contains 215 words. Saved 69%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee
on 20 Apr 2024 23:52
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You could argue that the perceptions of TikTok as a CCP tool of propaganda is an indirect foreign aid to Taiwan
God knows how much Russia tries to use social media to turn sentiments against Ukraine
Ultimately I think short form content encouraging platforms at large need to go down anyways so sucker punching the current biggest offender is right by me!
Maggoty@lemmy.world
on 21 Apr 2024 00:41
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The only thing I’ve seen about Taiwan on TikTok are videos talking about just how bad China’s casualty rate would be if they tried anything.
K3zi4@lemmy.world
on 21 Apr 2024 03:26
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Short form content platforms aren’t going anywhere, Instagram Reels and YouTube shorts are just a carbon copy of tiktok. No problems with them, of course, because they’re American.
Thorny_Insight@lemm.ee
on 21 Apr 2024 05:33
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I was against banning TikTok despite never having even used it. I still think the fact that’s it’s CCP controlled is a valid point so I get why this doesn’t affect reels or shorts but I still think it’s naive to ignore them. They’re bad for mental health and political division the exact same way TikTok is and just like TikTok there are foreign countries using them for propaganda purposes just aswell.
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 14:44
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The propaganda really isn’t anything different or special though. I’ve been using TikTok for years and it’s no different than any other social media. You interact with what you’re interested in and so you see what you want to see. Just like lemmy and reddit and whatever else. I’d argue that TikTok is a bit better for not having US corporate fingers all over it tbh.
If propaganda is valid criticism of the way our government is behaving by our own citizens on their own channels then I guess you could call it that lol. But banning TikTok is already proof that our government is full of fuckery and not working for us. They tried twice before this and the people unequivocally said NO both times. So they shoved it through in a way that makes it more difficult for anyone to hold them accountable. Because of course they did. Even people that don’t like the idea of TikTok should be more like you and against this obvious power grab. They don’t want to protect us. They want our data back in the US markets and our eyes back on our own homegrown propaganda that they can control. It really is outrageous if you consider it at anything more than surface level.
If only TikTok were paying ALEC and using their cycle-of-rage algorithm to drive gamers to Ben Shapiro. Gotta pay protection money to the mob if you want a business in this neighborhood.
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 14:38
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Facebook literally conducted social experiments on a million of their own users and didn’t even get a slap on the wrist. Banning TikTok had absolutely nothing to do with security or stopping propaganda. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a gullible fool.
PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee
on 22 Apr 2024 17:09
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Username checks out
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 19:10
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Prove it
postnataldrip@lemmy.world
on 21 Apr 2024 00:21
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Yup and that is the same issue with elections. Candidate A wants to ban private jets and burn tyres, candidate B wants to legalise child labour. A wins then claims they have a mandate to burn tyres
And they also don’t ban the private jets. I’d really love to have national legislation that a shithead can be recalled from any position if enough citizens demand it.
Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 12:26
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just_another_person@lemmy.world
on 21 Apr 2024 01:49
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This is not the definition of “pork” in a bill. This is an additive that has nothing to do with the bill, sure, but “pork” is when someone diverts funds to their cause with no direct reason to have it in the bill.
SINGLE ISSUE BILLS, FOLKS.
JudahBenHur@lemm.ee
on 21 Apr 2024 02:07
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so youre saying tik tok is addictive
NoIWontPickAName@kbin.earth
on 21 Apr 2024 03:17
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Think they mean addition
just_another_person@lemmy.world
on 21 Apr 2024 05:14
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Yes. Corrected.
surewhynotlem@lemmy.world
on 21 Apr 2024 13:00
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Why do you think pork needs to be actual dollars?
I’ll bet you that many congress folks already own stock in whatever company is most likely to pick up US Tiktok.
Maggoty@lemmy.world
on 21 Apr 2024 00:48
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Well the Senate killed the earlier bill. There’s a decent chance they pass the Ukraine/Israel aid bill without this amendment. It would then be stricken in reconciliation. Unfortunately there’s also a decent chance the Senate passes it because this version probably fixes things the Senators had problems with.
If it does get passed there’s a very good chance there’s a court order to prevent anything until the courts rule on the constitutionality of the law. If Bytedance loses that there’s zero chance they sell though. The US market is not big enough for them to jettison an international company.
MisterMoo@lemmy.world
on 21 Apr 2024 01:19
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Why are you cheerleading for TikTok to remain in the hands of a US adversary, during the same week when said adversary forced a US company to abjectly ban US-based messaging apps?
Retaliation. Tit for tit.
esc27@lemmy.world
on 21 Apr 2024 01:40
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Tik for Tok
ThrowawayPermanente@sh.itjust.works
on 21 Apr 2024 03:02
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The first amendment doesn't have an exception for retaliation.
NoIWontPickAName@kbin.earth
on 21 Apr 2024 03:16
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Eye for an eye?
Maggoty@lemmy.world
on 21 Apr 2024 04:06
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If the government can just point at a company and force a fire sale then there is no market, there is no order, there is no financial industry. This is an incredibly dangerous law.
conciselyverbose@sh.itjust.works
on 21 Apr 2024 11:44
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The government absolutely has unconditional and unlimited authority to restrict enemy states from ownership of anything in the US they want to.
There is absolutely no possibility of any Constitutional issue. The government has explicit authority to handle anything they want about international commerce in the Constitution.
That’s why they’re having to pass this law I guess then? Because they already have the authority to do the thing they’re trying to make the law to get the authority to do?
And TikTok isn’t owned by China. It’s owned by ByteDance, a MultiNational Corp with Chinese ties. It’s not operated out of China, Tiktok is operated out of Singapore and Los Angeles.
And what exactly is the security concern of people making funny cat videos? Nobody is saying the government has to put Tiktok on government computers. So what exactly is the exposure here that trumps the first amendment and prohibition on bills of attainder in the US?
To your first point, yes, exactly. Congress mostly has to pass bills to exercise their power. For example: they have the authority to decide finances. They pass bills to (barely) get that done.
You’re not wrong but even if this was a standing authority being used in the same way as passing the budget, it would be illegal because it targets a single entity by design. The Constitution prohibits that which is why laws are written as behavior rules you have to violate and then the government proves you violated them in court. Just declaring a company or person persona non grata is something our founders specifically prohibited.
bastion@feddit.nl
on 21 Apr 2024 14:42
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You’re thinking of laws in terms of obedience. Law is about agreed-upon structure (sometimes functional, often dysfunctional).
Enforcement is about obedience, and comes up when people don’t go along with the agreed-upon structure. When the structure is made poorly, enforcement has harmful consequences.
Examples:
food stamps (law)
no stealing (law)
preventing theft or multiple-subscription to food stamps (enforcement)
the wilderness act (law)
suing the government for not following the wilderness act (enforcement)
Law and enforcement are closely linked, but definitely distinct.
They have the authority to create structure (pass laws) regarding foreign powers operating within the States. So they pass laws (create structure) that state the agreed-upon structure, and enable that structure to be enforced.
Except we don’t have that power. Not unless there’s a national security threat. And they might make our children more woke isn’t a national security threat.
American individuals and this company have a first amendment right. Furthermore this isn’t a ban on all foreign owned companies. This is a ban on companies with ownership that have nebulous ties to certain countries. A list we can add to at any time. That is capricious and open to being abused. It’s also unconstitutional under the no Bills of Attainder rule.
Except we do have that power. There’s reasonable national security risk, and your lack of understanding of the dynamics involved doesn’t make them nebulous to others.
In any case, if you don’t like it, vote with your life choices. If it’s not that important, well… …it’s not that important.
You know nobody has yet to actually say what the risk is. Just that China is evil and therefore a risk. There’s some overblown stuff about them pushing cancel culture but that’s not a national security risk.
If it’s not nebulous then tell me, how are they getting our nuclear codes with a social media app they don’t directly control?
And again. No. We have rights in the US. Unless you guys go giving them away because you’re afraid you might see a Chinese video.
conciselyverbose@sh.itjust.works
on 21 Apr 2024 14:59
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Passing laws is how they regulate international commerce. Or one way. Treaties are another. Executive orders are another. Actions of regulatory bodies within frameworks established by prior legislation is another.
Congress passing legislation to stop hostile foreign ownership of a US business that’s doing harm is well within their authority.
A. Doing what harm? People just throw this around and there’s been no evidence except, “lol it’s a social media company”.
B. It’s not within their authority unless there’s a specific national security problem. So what about TikTok is going to breach national security? Are they stealing military secrets? (They were already banned from government devices along with other social media apps so the answer is no. They’re not.)
The Constitution is supposed to protect us from the government just pointing at us and declaring us criminals. Today it’s TikTok tomorrow it’s you.
conciselyverbose@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Apr 2024 09:12
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A. It’s malware that does an obscene amount of spying, even compared to other social media. Forcing the sale isn’t good enough. It should have been outright banned.
B. That’s incorrect. Their authority over foreign trade is unconditional and absolute. There are absolutely zero restrictions on what they can do to restrict foreign trade. Non-US companies have literally zero constitutional rights. They can ban all trade with any foreign person or business who has any commercial interaction with China if they wish. The Constitution places absolutely zero restrictions on their authority to restrict international trade.
No, the slippery slope does not exist, ignoring that that’s a stupid fallacy for a reason. I am not an enemy state. I am a US citizen. I have Constitutional rights. TikTok doesn’t, and for very good reason.
Oh now it’s malware? Funny, I haven’t seen it on any warning lists. Google hasn’t thrown it’s shield up and made me click the naughty button. Is there any reputable source saying it’s malware? Or are you just hoping I wasn’t tech literate?
International trade is literal trade, not just any foreigner offering a service. Foreign companies operating inside the US have the same rights you or I or Hobby Lobby have. Anything less runs into the same problems with restricting the Rights of non citizen individuals, namely that citizens inevitably lose those rights too. As long as they’re here they have the same rights.
conciselyverbose@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Apr 2024 20:06
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Yes, they’ve been caught abusing multiple exploits.
Foreign trade is literally anything involving any person from any country that’s not the US, any corporation that isn’t based in the US, and anything involving any US citizen crossing the borders of the US and bringing anything back. The government has unconditional and unlimited authority to regulate and restrict all of it for any reason. There are absolutely zero limitations. The government can completely bar any foreign ownership of any US asset and any corporation that isn’t registered exclusively in the US from doing any business at all with anyone within the borders of the US. It cannot possibly be a Constitutional issue.
Oh? And there are reports of this, right? By cyber security professionals? Reports you could link to?
And no. Your definition would turn the New Jersey tourist industry into a Foreign Trade. If that authorization is already in law then surely you could point it out so our esteemed politicians could just use that?
I’ll save you the trouble. It isn’t there. You’re making this up as you go along because you like the way that sounds. But we’ve spent 70 years building an international trade with treaties and international courts. Even if this, somehow, isn’t a beach of the 1st Amendment, 5th Amendment, and the prohibition on Bills of Attainder we still have to abide by the treaties we’ve signed. Treaties our Constitution affords the same level of respect as itself.
See, that’s all easily findable. There’s no circular logic about having the authority so you can pass a law giving yourself the authority. It’s how laws are supposed to work.
conciselyverbose@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Apr 2024 22:11
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Yes, it’s been reported numerous times.
Yes, Congress could pass laws banning tourism by foreign nationals if they wished. The constitution is explicit that they can do literally anything they want to regulate trade with other countries, and they absolute do regularly ban and sanction foreign bad actors. It has nothing to do with laws that exist. There are numerous such sanctions already in place against China and Chinese actors, and it’s an inherent right of being a sovereign nation.
You have absolutely no rights to interact or do business with foreign actors. It cannot possibly violate your rights to be prohibited from interacting with China. Every single country on the planet breaks treaties when things change to the extent doing so is required, which is irrelevant, because China routinely bans US companies for the sole purpose of protecting their own state controlled entities.
There is nothing for the Supreme Court to rule on. There is nothing remotely ambiguous here and nothing that in any way resembles a new precedent. This is entirely standard behavior.
You’ve sat here for three comments now, without referencing the Constitution, or the report just declaring your narrative as truth.
jumjummy@lemmy.world
on 21 Apr 2024 14:00
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The alternative is to outright ban it. Tik Tok is a cancer directly controlled by a hostile nation state. The government absolutely has the right to block foreign interference like this.
Technically according to this article tiktok won’t share data with the PRC - but their parent company bytedance is obligated to share data with the PRC when requested. Bytedance has authority to require tiktok to share data. Therefore through this channel tiktok is obligated to share data with the PRC when requested.
Bytedance owning a stake in TikTok does not mean they can require TikTok to share data. Especially if we made a common sense law to protect data saying it’s not allowed to leave the country.
Oh wait, that’s already a thing. And we just let Meta and the other data vendors keep doing it.
Lynthe@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Apr 2024 11:39
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Attempts have been made. But the data is still sent.
We should have better and more comprehensive data privacy laws across the board but whataboutism doesn’t change the fact that tiktok is obligated to share Americans data with a hostile and repressive foreign power.
Did… Did you actually read it? They sent user data for app engagement research. Oh no the CCP knows you’re a middle aged white guy in Oklahoma! The world is going to end!!!
And if we’re going to ban any data going to the CCP then we should just do that. It’s not whataboutism to point out you’re only punishing the odd duck for a crime all of the ducks are committing openly. Make that law and reform the industry. Anything less is just a racist excuse for a fire sale.
Lynthe@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Apr 2024 15:19
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Nothing in the article cites a reason for why the data was sent. In fact the article specifically mentions that this data being sent was to circumvent attempts to limit the transmission of American citizens data to a hostile foreign government.
We should ban the sale and transmission of Americans sensitive data to hostile foreign powers regardless of the company. I support this action because it would help do that, and I would support (and I do advocate for) more broad data privacy legislation. If you support data privacy why would you not support a bill which enhances data privacy, even if it doesn’t go far enough?
You started this discussion with me by saying that tiktok isnt obligated to send data, when I provided sourcing to that effect you brought up corporate structure questions asking if the data was being sent. I provided a source showing that it is transmitted through those avenues regardless. Now your argument is that because we don’t have totally comprehensive data privacy regulation we can just ignore the fact that tiktok is sending American citizens private data to a hostile foreign power? If you think that isn’t a big deal just say so, then we can have an honest conversation.
The spreadsheets included users’ names, email addresses, IP addresses, and geographic and demographic information and was used to determine how to develop TikTok’s algorithm to encourage users to be more active on the app, he said.
And no it was their own Project Texas. Also, not nearly the data anyone is worried about. They can get that from your bank. (And yes banks sell data) That’s not a breach of national security, it’s just good business sense to retain consumers. This is also the only instance the article actually finds. The article also mentions the software programmers saying that the data coding itself is well siloed, i.e. no back doors.
So is this the horrible national security problem we’ve all heard so much about? A vital statistics spreadsheet you can buy from any Data Vendor? When you say they’re obligated to send information people aren’t thinking it’s just literately a headcount. They’re thinking it’s political affiliation, income, job, social networking maps, GPS travel data. You know the stuff that the CCP intelligence people could fit together to find out what kind of porn you like and figure out how they can get that kind of porn in China.
Every argument for why we should ban TikTok fits Facebook and Twitter just as well. They both willingly give a lot more than that spreadsheet to the CCP. Facebook is perenially in congressional hearings over getting caught doing exactly what you’re accusing TikTok of, and yet somehow here we are worrying about TikTok because of nebulous racist fearmongering that falls apart the second we find the “smoking gun”.
Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg
on 22 Apr 2024 02:05
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They’re owned by the CCP (and before you say they’re not, the ByteDance C-suite is basically all current Chinese citizens and the headquarters is in Beijing).
Businesses and people do not have rights in the way most westerners are used to. Assume anything out of China or generally owned by Chinese companies is a direct arm of the CCP … because even if it isn’t today, the CCP can unilaterally throw down an order from the top and take control of the company/have them do whatever they want or the leaders replaced.
So are American companies that are basically all Americans in the C-Suite owned by the US Government?
Even if what you were saying was true, the common sense approach is to ban the trading of data internationally. Then TikTok can tell Beijing to pound sand if they tried anything. Instead we have this fear mongering racist bullshit being touted.
Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg
on 22 Apr 2024 05:37
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So are American companies that are basically all Americans in the C-Suite owned by the US Government?
Ultimately, yes. The US government can tell Google to report all searches of “I’m a goofy goober!” to them to collect a list of SpongeBob fans.
The same is true of a company like Proton and Swiss law.
The difference is that in the US/Switzerland/Western Democracy there are rights, laws, and courts that limit and check government power and action + open ended elections. Biden cannot just go to Elon Musk and tell him “this is my company now, you WILL report all the goofy goobers.” There are a lot of roadblocks to that kind of behavior.
The CCP is a monoculture based around the “National People’s Congress”. The NPC is effectively the CCP because the CCP picks who is eligible to be part of the NPC en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China
For all intents and purposes, what Xi wants is what happens. There is no court to check him, there is no opposition party to hold him back, and anyone that tries to stand in his way will more than likely be “punished.”
This is not racist bull shit. It has nothing to do with Chinese people and everything to do with the CCP.
The trading of data also has very little to do with anything. It’s about cutting off a hostile, authoritarian, foreign power from having a direct line to millions of US citizens to push whatever message they want with minimal oversight. The data is surely just icing on the cake for the CCP because they might be able to find some blackmail worthy piece of information in their hoard of metrics and videos for a current or future public figure.
I don’t think you understand either … “Banning” something only works if they care about the law and the CCP does not care at all about US laws. If they want to break them, they will, and they will either get the people that did the job for them back to China or use people that don’t know anything/any better as scapegoats. It’s the exact same stuff any government would do, international law is imaginary because ultimately nations do not answer to nations except by diplomacy and war.
Lmao. Okay we’re done here. You have an outsized idea of nationality, government power, and what’s in TikTok data.
Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg
on 22 Apr 2024 12:55
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You’re just naive if you honestly think companies are somehow “above” the nations of their owners or that government power has some real limit beyond what other nations are willing (and able) to punish them over.
It’s also pretty naive to assert there’s nothing of value in that data, particularly of the blackmail variety. That stupid distasteful video you uploaded and then “deleted” at a teen … there’s no guarantee they don’t have it. The location ping your phone made when you were cheating on your spouse and opened TikTok while waiting for your mistress, there’s no guarantee they don’t have it.
You could even use popular political videos as the basis for evaluating who’s more likely to cooperate or believe you following an attack and mix that with geographic data to figure out how to minimize the risk of guerilla fighters. Similarly, you could use the social network graph to figure out how to put pressure on someone.
I mean, social media is honestly nasty in terms of what it can tell you about a society.
That doesn’t even begin to touch on the ability to directly manipulate a proprietary content promotion algorithm. You think they can effectively manipulate Facebook? There are no limits to the manipulation they can perform on TikTok and there is no framework for overseeing social media algorithm performance.
Multi national corporations are so beholden to their countries they cheat on their taxes and break any law they can get away with. Including selling data directly to the CCP.
So no. I don’t have time or the willpower to argue with someone who thinks international affairs is a video game and everything is tied to countries.
Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg
on 22 Apr 2024 14:11
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Just because a nation chooses to let things go unnoticed, it does not mean the nation does not have the power.
If the US Govt decides to break up Apple or Google, they are no longer whole; that’s the end of it.
Just because the principal at your school let kids break a few rules and some teachers use sick days like vacation days doesn’t mean the principal doesn’t have power over the kids and teachers.
You’re incredibly naive to think the most powerful entities in the world, nation states, are some toothless, harmless play thing that large corporations can “just subvert.” That’s the video game perspective.
To be clear, China understands this whole thing very well. There’s a reason they’re trying to kick US tech companies out and it isn’t because they’re afraid of the tech company itself.
Oh wow. You really just don’t know do you? They have to go to court to break up Apple or Google and prove a case. And this isn’t a principal on a power trip. You think it’s a button press and you call me naive? Jesus wept.
Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg
on 22 Apr 2024 19:26
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They have to go to court because the western government itself has checks and balances, as I previously stated.
It’s entirely within congress’s authority to change the law to make it the press of a button. It’s not a matter of “whether or not they have the power.” It’s where or not they allow themselves to exercise the power.
China doesn’t have all these roadblocks, especially in the Xi error; it’s much closer to an outright dictatorship than it’s been in many years.
Ah yes that bit in the Constitution about due process is just for show. Well I’m sure the police agree with you. You’d have a point, if we were having this discussion in China.
Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg
on 22 Apr 2024 21:16
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Pray tell, how do you think monopoly law works? What do you think due process is?
Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg
on 22 Apr 2024 23:48
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I give up, you’re unreachable.
Yes, cite exactly what I said happens and ignore literally everything I’m saying once again … because “governments are subservient to corporations” and China is a benevolent government no worse than the US except when it doesn’t suit your argument.
If the US Govt decides to break up Apple or Google, they are no longer whole; that’s the end of it.
There you go.
Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg
on 23 Apr 2024 01:02
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“They just do it” is not in there.
Perhaps the confusion stems from that fact that the US Court System is part of the US Government. Explicitly “If the United States congress gives power to the executive branch to break up a company, the executive branch decides to break up a company, and the company is unable to successfully appeal the decision in the courts, they are no longer whole; that’s the end of it.”
Lmao. Dig that hole deeper. Go look at that Anti-trust suit. Does that look like the government just did it and Apple is appealing? Due process means the government has to prove a case before it deprives you of property. Because we don’t live in a Dictatorship.
Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg
on 23 Apr 2024 02:03
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K.
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 14:58
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Oh you silly! The American corporations ARE the government at this point. But your point is valid either way. I don’t think it’s just about racism though. I think they want our data back in the US market. None of our corporate overlords can dip their greedy little fingers into TikTok data and that is very upsetting for them.
Yeah, I’m at a loss as to how people are buying this. They’re being asked to support this bill on less than zero evidence, just reporters breathlessly repeating hypothetical stuff. It’s just so obviously a called hit by our political donor class.
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 19:43
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It’s because they’ve just decided they hate it/it’s just full of dancing teenagers for years now and nothing will ever change their minds. Which is wild because if it ever was that I never saw it and I’ve been on it for like 5-6 years at least. Everyone just bought into our gov saying they’re worried about propaganda/security when my page is mostly filled with memes, gaming stuff, gardening, recipes, cats, news, and now a bunch of people pissed off about the ban.
What really got me is how easily manipulated lemmy/reddit users were the second time they tried to ban it. Tiktok sent out a notification telling their users they were voting for the ban and offering to help them find their local representatives if they wanted to call them and object to it. As they should that’s how democracy is supposed to work isn’t it? Immediately they got flooded with calls from people like me telling them that we didn’t want the ban. Also immediately, the media started to spin it as a bunch of “vulnerable” teenagers and elderly people were forced or tricked into calling in their confusion… And PEOPLE BELIEVED IT. Just ate it right up. Crazy.
Yeah that was crazy. They asked people to lobby for them, as other companies have done, and suddenly they’re brainwashing our youth. Every time this comes up I feel like I’m taking crazy pills just from the sheer pressure of people saying TikTok is malware/spyware/directly controlled; but the evidence they point to is always weak at best. It’s like they think TikTok is the Chinese version of the black helicopter secret organization.
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 14:55
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Facebook literally conducted “social experiments” on like a million of their users and didn’t even get a slap on the wrist. What you’re saying isn’t even true but if it was so what? Another country profits off of stealing my data instead of the US? What has the US ever given me for my data? My taxes already help.fund genocides and I don’t get any say in any of it so fuck it.
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 14:52
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Because it has absolutely nothing to do with any of that and everything to do with US corporations wanting our data and eyeballs back. If you think otherwise you’re just too easily manipulated.
It’s the biggest single country but in a world of 7.9 Billion people, 148 million is a fraction.
RagingRobot@lemmy.world
on 21 Apr 2024 05:47
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But it’s also not available in China correct? They have a separate version with a different name from what I understand. They could do the same for the other regions they serve and sell the US user base to a new company.
Maggoty@lemmy.world
on 21 Apr 2024 06:20
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The Chinese app is a completely different app and company than TikTok. ByteDance owns two apps. While we might end up with an American version ByteDance is not going to sell TikTok. And at the closest, that version would be an American corporation running a licensed version of TikTok with TikTok’s American server and software infrastructure. But that’s not very likely, even with a year’s lead time. That’s the kind of deal you get when a company exits a market voluntarily. When you have a fire sale you far more often see a company’s assets sold as parts. The problem is it’s not an equal playing ground anymore and free market principles no longer apply.
So in this case TikTok would still want the most money possible for their buildings, servers, office equipment, etc. That means that all Meta and friends need to do in order to prevent a whole sale is give TikTok a good deal on one aspect. If Meta takes the servers, and Reddit takes the work computers, and Alphabet takes the source code, and Apple takes the buildings, there’s not very much left over for a new competitor to grab and turn into a running concern that could compete.
So in this case TikTok itself comes away fine. But the American social media market becomes less competitive and consumers have to deal with shittier apps as there’s less competition.
There are two very concerning points to this law in the future though. This is a law allowing the executive branch to make a declaration about a company and force a fire sale. If this was done to a domestic company with foreign backing then it would simply be the end of that company. Second, this does not in any way actually keep the CCP from getting our data or influencing us through social media. In 2016 Russia famously ran an information op through Facebook. There have been no reforms to keep that from happening again and in fact we saw that same campaign in 2020, it just wasn’t enough the second time. And American Data Vendors willingly sell our data to the highest bidder, including the CCP. They have been caught doing so multiple times, have received nothing more than a slap on the wrist, and there’s no evidence they’ve stopped.
So this law puts a dangerous precedent into place without solving any of the things it says it’s going to solve. The short story here is that unless we’re talking about school lunches you need to run away the second a politician says it’s for the children.
Oh and it’s an open question as to if it’s even Constitutional since it’s basically a standing authority to ban companies by name. Which is literally called out in the Constitution and why you’ve never seen a law to punish someone by name in the US. There’s supposed to be a court procedure and a law they’ve violated. If they wanted to make a law saying a company could be banned for giving data to declared enemies and enforce it in civil court that would be proper. But it would immediately fail because all of our Billionaires are ass deep in the data markets. So we have this smoke cloud instead.
freeman@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Apr 2024 05:24
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Why would they sell? That would create a competitor that could easily expand into other markets and take away that user base as well.
Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world
on 21 Apr 2024 03:25
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mimes eating popcorn, while pointing to overlayed captions, with a Taylor Swift song playing in the background
scrappydoo@lemmy.world
on 21 Apr 2024 03:27
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This person TikToks!
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 14:46
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If that’s what you guys see on TikTok then that’s what you interact with and enjoy watching so you’re just kinda telling on yourselves lmao
bartolomeo@suppo.fi
on 21 Apr 2024 12:14
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Crazy that the proposed solution to propaganda is banning media instead of investing in education that promotes critical thinking. Or maybe the idea here is “no propaganda except mine”.
What do you think billionaires are bribing congress for? Regulatory capture keeps all the competitors out. Whereas actually fixing the problem of social media brainwashing would cost them money.
Anyolduser@lemmynsfw.com
on 21 Apr 2024 13:08
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Looking at things pragmatically widespread education of the population takes time and simply won’t take for some people. There are folks today complaining that “they don’t teach taxes in school”. These people have a problem filling out a 1040EZ. Not exactly encouraging.
At the same time Tic Tok represents a single vector for current or potential foreign propaganda and intelligence gathering targeting the American public. Opportunities to nip a single bud (so to speak) are few and far between and probably won’t be possible in the near future.
TL;DR - The “sell or ban” is a short term measure that won’t take a lot of time, education is a long term measure that takes years.
Stupidmanager@lemmy.world
on 21 Apr 2024 14:51
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Investing in education is counter to the clear goals of the USA. Smart people would revolt, protest,and you know, hold companies and billionaires accountable. Uneducated people are often poor, can’t afford to fight back and are scared they will lose what little they have.
At some point we need all to fight back, but it might be too late. And worse, too few will join in out of fear of death.
AtariDump@lemmy.world
on 23 Apr 2024 03:40
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masquenox@lemmy.world
on 21 Apr 2024 15:37
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If people can pick apart China’s propaganda it means they can pick apart US propaganda, too.
Can’t have that.
TwilightVulpine@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 04:18
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Well, of course. They aren’t banning Facebook, Instagram or YouTube. That’s exactly how they want it.
reverendsteveii@lemm.ee
on 22 Apr 2024 14:41
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they aren’t even banning tiktok, at least they’re trying not to. What they’re trying to do is force a sale specifically to US government insiders. They’re seizing it. They want that sweet, sweet propaganda and data mining for themselves.
SolNine@lemmy.ml
on 22 Apr 2024 04:39
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I have to tell you, I know many intelligent people that have succumbed to propaganda, and outrage porn addiction. I see it continue to happen on all sides of the political isle. (This isn’t a both sides kind of statement, simply acknowledgement that the same tactics work on our brain, indifferent of political ideology.)
Whether they are hooked on the dopamine rush of rage baiting up votes, likes or comments; or only seeing everything in the world through a myopic lens of negativity, it has captured many of my friends and family, including myself for a time.
For some their drug is Fox News, others it’s Reddit, Facebook or TikTok, the results are often the same.
I have yet to figure out a manner in which to communicate with individuals who spend considerable amounts of time in echo chambers, constantly having their personal beliefs reinforced. Evasion of cognitive dissonance and social conflict are very powerful psychological motivations. I wish I knew the solution.
Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 12:21
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Not really sure what you’re getting at. Getting mad is good, getting locked into an echo chamber and eschewing critical thinking in lieu of groupthink is bad.
woelkchen@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 09:57
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And yet China is banning basically the whole Western internet, foreign companies must enter joint ventures with Chinese companies under government control. Reciprocity is fair. Why should Byte Dance be allowed to take in billions to fund Chinese gulags?
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 14:33
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Why do you want our social media to mirror China? That’s the real question. What’s the US gonna do with our data that’s so much better? Oh yeah, fund our allies genocides! Yay! 🥳
woelkchen@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 21:56
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Why do you want our social media to mirror China? That’s the real question.
I want Chinese companies face exactly the same hurdles in the west as western companies face in China. Applies to all economic branches, not just social media.
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 23 Apr 2024 13:10
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In what way is taking a platform away from millions of Americans an acceptable way to do that? Yes, our taxes are funding a genocide and instead of listening to the droves of people protesting that they suddenly all get together and magically agree to ban tiktok. They can’t agree to feed school children but still agreed to ban TikTok. The fact that you see it as retaliation is also hilarious because that’s supposed to be illegal and they’re still claiming that’s not why they’re doing it. Even you see through that bullshit on accident
Everything I said was relevant to my point. You linked the wiki to whataboutism and still used it wrong lmaooooo.
Crikeste@lemm.ee
on 22 Apr 2024 16:19
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China does thing: Bad
America does same thing: Good
LaLuzDelSol@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 17:07
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At least the US government can’t harvest US citizens social media data without a warrant (excepting all the patriot act stuff). But there is zero protection for your data from the CCP if it’s on TikTok. That’s understandably a pretty huge security concern. I can also understand China not wanting data from their citizens in the hands of American social media companies. Idk if any if it is good or bad but it’s certainly common sense on a national level.
TwilightVulpine@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 17:53
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As someone who’s neither chinese nor american I want nothing more than these countries to keep their hands to themselves. I don’t like China doing it, and I don’t want the US doing it because China does it. Are y’all gonna hand a piece of your companies to every country they operate in? I’m guessing “no”.
redlue@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 21:13
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Ahh, so you’re in favor of the West implementing their own Great Firewall?
woelkchen@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 21:41
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Ahh, so you’re in favor of the West implementing their own Great Firewall?
Against China: Yes.
redlue@startrek.website
on 23 Apr 2024 16:50
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Gross.
redlue@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 21:13
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Or maybe the idea here is “no propaganda except mine”.
Winner winner 🐔 dinner.
skymtf@pricefield.org
on 21 Apr 2024 23:23
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It’s not even about propaganda it’s not having it until their thumb, they can’t push a button and ensure the top video under trans on every search is Matt Walsh, and yeah on all other major platforms if you search trans people critical of trans people pop up. The reasoning isn’t popularity or engagement, the US government has ordered them to do it through backroom tax deals and Slapp orders. Next stop for the US gov is gonna be the fediverse and AT proto, they are gonna argue that not just anyone should be trusted and that running a social media server is a big task. security blah blah children, protecting your data. Than lass a bill require you to obtain an FCC license to host your own social media site. It only gets worse from here folks
Mango@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 00:45
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I didn’t really like your attitude about it, but you’re probably right. Moving goalposts is what the US does to establish precedents.
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 14:50
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Even if someone hates TikTok for whatever reason this should still piss them off. They tried to do this twice and the people said NO both times. To the extent that they spread a bunch of bs rhetoric claiming people were forced to call their representatives last time because they got so much immediate push back lol. Nobody was forced to do anything. A notification was sent to TikTok inboxes telling people about the vote and offering to help them contact their local reps about it. A bunch of people exercised their rights to have a voice and did just that. That was it. That’s what happened.
Now here we are. In an incredibly undemocratic move, they forced the ban through anyway.
Look, I hate TERFs and distrust the US government, but this take is just conspiracy theory nonsense. Unless you have some evidence that the US government is forcing social media to promote anti-trans content, I have absolutely zero reason to believe your claim over the more believable explanation: that promoting controversial content drives engagement and increases ad revenue.
p5yk0t1km1r4ge@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 06:38
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I see no issue with banning tik tok.
douglasg14b@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 08:16
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It’s not even “banning tik-tok”. It’s “separate your interests, or we block your product”.
Which isn’t exactly something that we haven’t seen before in the U.S. and it for sure isn’t anything new in China where plenty of services, games…etc are blocked with “Chinese only” versions of those services.
OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee
on 22 Apr 2024 12:52
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We forced the sale of Grindr and nobody even brought it up.
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 14:32
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They’re not even remotely the same thing… Y’all are so out of touch it’s ridiculous.
OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee
on 22 Apr 2024 14:50
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It’s literally the exact same thing being done to a different app. It’s not a wild comparison.
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 19:03
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The apps themselves are wildly different. You think it’s a coincidence that this got forced through right before elections? Our gov doesn’t like that they can’t control the narrative there. They also really don’t like how upset tiktok makes the US corporations that fill their pockets. How is that comparable? Unless you think the ban is for security like they’re claiming, which is laughable, because it’s so obviously not.
MalachaiConstant@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 17:13
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Given how many politicians are deeply closeted, I like to imagine they hurried this one along quietly
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 14:29
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It’s a ban. They have stated in no uncertain terms that they will not sell or separate any interests. It’s not for our “security” or any of that absolute BS either. It’s for their own profits and because they want people’s data.
The fact that you’d want our media to even remotely resemble the highly sensored versions in China is insane to me. Y’all are just happy to go along with this because you don’t like tiktok. That’s it. That’s all it took for a lot of you. I’d say I expected better but it’s becoming more obvious every day that lemmy is where the old and out of touch people migrated to. Despite it seeming like it would be the opposite.
You genuinely don’t care if the government oversteps as long as it fits your bias. The fact that they couldn’t get it to go through as a single issue twice so they had to shove it with other issues just to get their way should be enough to piss most people off but here we are. It’s a shame. I’m disappointed in how easily manipulated so many of you are. Truly.
sailingbythelee@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 15:58
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I haven’t followed it too closely, but I know this has been years in the making so the company should have a contingency plan. You have to wonder why the company refuses to take steps satisfactory to Congress to ensure that the CCP cannot access user data or influence the content or algorithm. It is economically suicidal to be banned in the US, which makes me think that Bytedance’s CCP masters told the company to refuse. Of course, now that the law has been passed, Bytedance will have to separate their interests since I doubt they’ll allow the app to be banned. They’d lose most of their advertising revenue if they were banned in the US. Not to mention the fact that a US ban would likely be followed by bans in other countries. I’m sure Bytedance can find a way to have another company manage their data while still making plenty of money. No need to pity a company making billions in revenue on the labour of content creators.
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 19:09
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They can’t really have a contingency because they won’t sell. They can’t due to the laws there anyway. It’s been plainly stated countless times. We’ll see how it goes but regardless the US gov is playing dirty here under the guise of protecting our security. The people clearly said no the first two times and they shoved it through anyway. I don’t see how people don’t find that at least a little alarming
sailingbythelee@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 21:54
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You make a good point about Bytedance perhaps not being permitted to have a contingency plan. However, the CCP may have one. Whatever Xi says is law in China.
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 23 Apr 2024 13:13
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And he’s said that companies can’t sell property like the TikTok algorithm to other countries. I highly doubt he’ll suddenly have a change of heart now. I honestly hope he doesn’t because the US shouldn’t be making legislation against its own citizens wishes just to fuck with China in the first place.
sailingbythelee@lemmy.world
on 23 Apr 2024 16:10
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Why do you say that Congress is making legislation against its own citizens’ wishes? A quick Google search shows that polls suggest that twice as many Americans favour the ban as oppose it.
I’m still trying to figure out what the downside of this legislation is. It doesn’t ban any specific content or speech, it just bans a particular company from operating a specific platform in the US. Tiktok is still permitted to operate if it is controlled by a company that isn’t directly subject to the CCP. If Xi chooses to not let that happen, that is on him. Xi certainly can’t cry foul without massive hypocrisy, given that he has already banned virtually all western social media.
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 23 Apr 2024 22:32
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Lmao polls. Ok. We’ll just ignore the fact that the large public outcry the last two hearings stalled the proceedings forcing them to shove it through with another bill I guess.
It’s literally illegal to make legislation targeting a single company. If you don’t see a problem with them breaking their own laws to please their corporate overlords then I don’t know what else I can tell you.
My favorite part about replies like yours is how willing you are to stoop to the same level of China in retaliation. Even if it impacts millions of US citizens. But that doesn’t matter to you because you don’t like or use the app so what do you care right? Not to even mention the people that make a living through it.
sailingbythelee@lemmy.world
on 24 Apr 2024 00:05
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Whoa, take it easy there, friend. That got personal rather quickly. Are you mad? I don’t have a horse in this race one way or the other. I don’t use Tiktok but I don’t have anything against it either. It seems to me that social media apps pop up like dandelions and the main thing that determines whether or not they thrive is the number of people participating. I guess I’m wondering why anyone should care if Tiktok in particular survives or some other social media platform takes its place. They rise, they fall, but there always seems to be a replacement.
MalachaiConstant@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 17:34
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it’s becoming more obvious every day that lemmy is where the old and out of touch people migrated to
Hey I’ve heard there’s this really cool app for lipsyncing and dancing. Apparently it’s getting pretty popular. Sounds like you’d have more fun there
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 19:05
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You just made my point and you don’t even realize it lmao
MalachaiConstant@lemmy.world
on 23 Apr 2024 15:39
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Okay then, where did all the young and in-touch people end up?
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 23 Apr 2024 22:33
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I’m not telling you old man
daltotron@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 22:33
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I’d say I expected better but it’s becoming more obvious every day that lemmy is where the old and out of touch people migrated to.
No yeah this whole deal is like. Just a bunch of mildly liberal gen X Linux users, basically, that think they’re hot shit because they were right about like half of their opinions like a decade ago and haven’t changed since. The amount of people hating on even basic shit like discord here is nuts.
Get with the times, grandpa, we all use pirated windows LTSC with Microsoft activation scripts and various privacy and installation scripts! C’mon! We all use YouTube revanced grandpa! Libtube? What the fuck are you talking about?
redlue@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 21:12
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ours@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 10:08
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Except they would be ignoring all the other shitty social networks but it’s a start.
PresidentCamacho@lemm.ee
on 22 Apr 2024 17:02
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It’s not a start tho, it’s killing competition of Facebook and Google. It’s consolidating power if anything. I believe this bill has nothing to do with security issues and everything to do with campaign contributions to make sure America never has to compete with another country in this space.
ours@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 17:10
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Oh I know their motivation is greed.
BurnSquirrel@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 18:34
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eh, It would look like more of a shakedown if it was just the US doing it, but tiktok is getting banned all over the place, particularly for government devices.
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 14:26
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Except for the part where they couldn’t get support for it twice so they shoved it in here to get their way? But that’s ok because you don’t like the silly dancing app that you know basically nothing about right? Other than “China bad”, of course.
p5yk0t1km1r4ge@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 21:44
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I don’t give a shit about the China bit, I just think it’s dumb and full of misinformation so I really don’t care if it’s banned. I have no reason to hide my thoughts on this. It’s stupid, I think it’s cringey as fuck, and I’ll be happy to see it go. I know nothing about it because it doesn’t remotely interest me in the slightest. I’m sorry you’re upset people don’t like your stupid little dancing app but lashing out like this changes jack shit. You’re right. We don’t like it. Nobody here was hiding that.
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 23:47
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What misinformation is it full of? You surely must know if you’re confidently making this claim.
Honestly? You have clearly never used it. The fact that you’re just parroting what you’ve heard from others brainlessly is what’s truly cringy here. Absolutely low IQ behavior. Not worth my time.
p5yk0t1km1r4ge@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 23:51
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Ok, its cool that you believe that. Have a nice day!
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 23 Apr 2024 13:06
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Of course you didn’t answer the question. I knew you wouldn’t.
p5yk0t1km1r4ge@lemmy.world
on 23 Apr 2024 13:40
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Cool bro, want a gold star? A cookie maybe?
OftenWrong@startrek.website
on 23 Apr 2024 23:40
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Are you actually an adult?
p5yk0t1km1r4ge@lemmy.world
on 24 Apr 2024 01:20
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Brother, I’m tired of this. I think it’s cool that you disagree with me. Not too worried about it. There has got to be better things for you to do than constantly bugging me like this. It’s ok for you to think of me however you will. Have a nice day!
reverendsteveii@lemm.ee
on 22 Apr 2024 14:36
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what did tiktok do to deserve being banned, and why is it okay for other companies to do that?
LaLuzDelSol@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 17:02
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TikTok is very heavily influenced by the CCP and could be used to collect data from Americans (probably they already are). Not wanting your biggest geopolitical rival to harvest data from your citizens is pretty understandable.
redlue@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 21:11
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afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
on 23 Apr 2024 00:06
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Chinese government is a lot less a threat to me compared to the US. We are at most two elections cycles away from a Christian Nationalism state. China is over there, not my problem. I can avoid them if I want.
Raiderkev@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 17:17
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Feeding data to the CCP, helping them identify people who can be easily swayed into espionage. Say someone gets into a position of power. “Hey, remember when you were 12 and said this on tik Tok? Now we need you to be out bitch or we’re leaking this.”
Look at the things that have gone viral on Tik Tok, it’s like their algorithm prioritizes things that are toxic to make American youth shittier. Kia boys comes to mind.
There is also the fact that China bans all American social media out of fear that we’d use it to manipulate their people. If they aren’t allowing our businesses to compete fairly, why should we allow theirs? Also, they probably are projecting that fear because they are doing exactly that with TikTok.
The app has more permissions than most apps and is highly invasive. They sent a push notification to all their users based on Geo location saying who their rep was and giving their phone number saying to call them to stop this bill. That alone seems like a major abuse of power. They are using the data they have to try to sway the American politicians already.
reverendsteveii@lemm.ee
on 22 Apr 2024 18:16
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you’ve failed to answer my second question, which I believe was the important one: why should this behavior be perfectly legal for everyone other than tiktok?
zalgotext@sh.itjust.works
on 22 Apr 2024 23:14
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Yeah it’s a good question, and I think the answer should be: it shouldn’t. Instead of cracking down on one platform or another, they should be cracking down on the bad behaviors built into those platforms.
But alas, that would require us to elect politicians that understand an ounce of nuance
reverendsteveii@lemm.ee
on 22 Apr 2024 23:53
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I agree with you, but I’m assuming malice because I don’t think that stupidity adequately explains their behavior. I think that, to them, the problem isn’t propaganda and espionage, it’s Chinese propaganda and Chinese espionage where American propaganda and American espionage should be. That’s why they’re not making what tiktok does illegal, and that’s why they’re trying to force a sale rather than actually banning it.
redlue@startrek.website
on 22 Apr 2024 21:11
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They are not banning the content type that tiktok provides, they are banning the foreign authoritarian government control of American user information. If Bytedance Sells tiktok to a business in a non authoritarian state then they no longer care.
Wispy2891@lemmy.world
on 23 Apr 2024 06:23
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i hate TikTok but also Instagram and YouTube shorts should be in the same list
Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 12:13
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How about a digital bill of rights that applies to every corporation you fucking cowards!
They don’t care about every corporation because they work with those corporations. It’s because it’s a foreign power that started doing the same shit they’ve been doing for decades now. None of these countries & corporations deserve any sort of sympathy or support from any sane individual.
x0x7@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 16:43
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Weren’t you all just hating on Republicans for not voting for that bill.
How about an all bills must be fucking separate bill?
Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 17:01
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This was a separate bill. Til Tok, Taiwan, Ukraine, and Israel were all separate. They were brought to the floor at the same time, but they could’ve all been voted on differently
Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 17:12
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At least the Genocrats cant hide behind the “it was bundled in with Ukraine” excuse now. The end up the exact same as the Republicunts.
Both sides are exactly the same.
RageAgainstTheRich@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 22:05
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What is a genocrat?
irreticent@lemmy.world
on 23 Apr 2024 01:18
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Linkerbaan is just a troll. Always trying to muddy the conversation with terms like “genocide joe” and “sleepy joe.” I assume “genocrats” are his clever portmanteau for genocide Democrats.
Edit: notice how he edits his comments to make them more “both sides” instead of the original “Democrats bad” message.
RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 17:29
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You need to fix voting in congress first. The reason riders get put in is because some small bills that are of no interest to some in congress would never make it because they’d never get enough votes to pass. Of course the system got abused to hell with poison pills and shitty bills that are crammed into popular legislation to make it hard to pass or make good legislation pass shitty laws.
So yeah, split the bills. But make these clowns vote on everything.
Zap@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Apr 2024 17:06
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Minimum wage has been $7.25/hr for 15 years and this is what they’re getting done on Capitol Hill 🤪
“they won’t let the algorithm be sold and without it, it’s an empty deal” I don’t see how that’s a problem. Obviously there’s a great deal of knowledge about what “the algorithm” does across the userbase; just get users to raise tickets about what they miss and others to upvote them, then knock them off one by one. There’s nothing magic about “users who liked post A also liked post B” or “company X paid us $1000000000000 so here’s post C whether you like it or not”. It might even end up being better than the original.
PiratePanPan@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Apr 2024 22:08
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Oh, no! What will I do without my level 5 gyatt rizz livvy fanum tax dunne rizzing up baby gronk ice spice wat da dawg doin skibidi toilet in real life only in ohio we go jim zyzz creatine alpha sigma cuh dey board?
This bill would also outlaw using VPNs to view such restricted platforms, and has a general policy that would allow lawmakers to ban any platform they claim is a national security risk. No overreach here!
The poor kids will lose everything because of course you can only host that kind of fucking trash on tik tok!! It’s either on tik tok or not at all!!!
it’s ridiculous how attached these children are to a chinese company lol. They just host the goddamn footage and provide an algo to feed that shit to you. THAT’S IT! TT ain’t some special fuckin unicorn
but the kids are kids and they don’t want to think about and understand that. Most on tiktok probably don’t even know of or remember Vine or the other previous iterations of the same exact shit concept. But noooo, the CCP must be allowed to frame the narratives/algos and vacuum up all possible PII data!!!
now that aside, the VPN part you mention is indeed disturbing. Could you please provide the source / exact wording for this claim? I want to read more about it but can’t find anything close to what you are suggesting
VPN or virtual private network are not mentioned anywhere
PiratePanPan@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 22 Apr 2024 23:36
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TikTok is also a pretty effective protest tool, which is also a threat to conservatives. It’s just funny how they’re so against the CCP rotting the brains of children but do nothing about the black box of YouTube recommendations and every American social media platform (until they started banning campaign misinformation)
VPn or virtual private network are not mentioned anywhere
Shit, they revised it then. I remember there was originally language like that in the original 2023 version.
Currently 0-2 today for spreading correct information.
Fades@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 23:40
nextcollapse
yes haha, I agree. It’s not a consistent position which is really dumb.
I’m glad they revised it!! It’s still good to call it out as I wasn’t aware of that being in an old version!! Sneaky little bastards
RageAgainstTheRich@lemmy.world
on 22 Apr 2024 22:11
nextcollapse
Can we just put the american and chinese government in a room and let them fight it out untill they are done?
Just let me watch my funny cat videos and cooking videos in peace thankyou very much.
afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
on 23 Apr 2024 00:00
collapse
I will never vote for my rep again because of this. Climate change, runaway COL, rising wealth inequality, legalize cannabis, Middle East on fire, flood in the district that killed people…utter silence.
Banning Tik Tok was the priority.
I won’t vote GOP but my rep is never getting my vote again.
MyCoffeeCupIsLife@lemmy.world
on 23 Apr 2024 04:59
collapse
Is your rep speaker of the house Mike Johnson? If not, they don’t choose which bill is voted on…
afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
on 23 Apr 2024 15:46
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Could have voted nay, could have refused to vote on it, could have demanded a rider be attached passing universal healthcare. Choose to vote against our rights to use as shitty app. Therefore I choose to never vote for them again.
Unless you got a time machine my decision is final.
threaded - newest
This is the best summary I could come up with:
It would mark the first time ever the U.S. government has passed a law that could shut down an entire social media platform, setting the stage for what is expected to be a protracted legal battle.
“It is unfortunate that the House of Representatives is using the cover of important foreign and humanitarian assistance to once again jam through a ban bill that would trample the free speech rights of 170 million Americans,” said TikTok spokesman Alex Haurek.
National security officials in Washington have feared that the Chinese government could use TikTok to promote propaganda aimed at interfering in U.S. elections, or surveil some of the 170 million Americans who use the app every month.
While there has been no evidence made public that Chinese government officials have accessed Americans’ information through TikTok, the idea that China has the theoretical ability to weaponize an app used by half of America has been enough to set off an all-out crackdown.
And during the Trump administration’s campaign against TikTok, China added content-recommendation algorithms to its export-control list, meaning selling the technology would require the blessing of the Chinese government.
“The Chinese said very firmly this month at senior levels that they won’t let the algorithm be sold and without it, it’s an empty deal,” Lewis told NPR.
The original article contains 701 words, the summary contains 215 words. Saved 69%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
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You could argue that the perceptions of TikTok as a CCP tool of propaganda is an indirect foreign aid to Taiwan
God knows how much Russia tries to use social media to turn sentiments against Ukraine
Ultimately I think short form content encouraging platforms at large need to go down anyways so sucker punching the current biggest offender is right by me!
The only thing I’ve seen about Taiwan on TikTok are videos talking about just how bad China’s casualty rate would be if they tried anything.
Short form content platforms aren’t going anywhere, Instagram Reels and YouTube shorts are just a carbon copy of tiktok. No problems with them, of course, because they’re American.
I was against banning TikTok despite never having even used it. I still think the fact that’s it’s CCP controlled is a valid point so I get why this doesn’t affect reels or shorts but I still think it’s naive to ignore them. They’re bad for mental health and political division the exact same way TikTok is and just like TikTok there are foreign countries using them for propaganda purposes just aswell.
The propaganda really isn’t anything different or special though. I’ve been using TikTok for years and it’s no different than any other social media. You interact with what you’re interested in and so you see what you want to see. Just like lemmy and reddit and whatever else. I’d argue that TikTok is a bit better for not having US corporate fingers all over it tbh.
If propaganda is valid criticism of the way our government is behaving by our own citizens on their own channels then I guess you could call it that lol. But banning TikTok is already proof that our government is full of fuckery and not working for us. They tried twice before this and the people unequivocally said NO both times. So they shoved it through in a way that makes it more difficult for anyone to hold them accountable. Because of course they did. Even people that don’t like the idea of TikTok should be more like you and against this obvious power grab. They don’t want to protect us. They want our data back in the US markets and our eyes back on our own homegrown propaganda that they can control. It really is outrageous if you consider it at anything more than surface level.
If only TikTok were paying ALEC and using their cycle-of-rage algorithm to drive gamers to Ben Shapiro. Gotta pay protection money to the mob if you want a business in this neighborhood.
Facebook literally conducted social experiments on a million of their own users and didn’t even get a slap on the wrist. Banning TikTok had absolutely nothing to do with security or stopping propaganda. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a gullible fool.
Username checks out
Prove it
Yup and that is the same issue with elections. Candidate A wants to ban private jets and burn tyres, candidate B wants to legalise child labour. A wins then claims they have a mandate to burn tyres
And they also don’t ban the private jets. I’d really love to have national legislation that a shithead can be recalled from any position if enough citizens demand it.
Just First Past the post voting things
“Pork” on a bill has been a problem for decades.
This is not the definition of “pork” in a bill. This is an additive that has nothing to do with the bill, sure, but “pork” is when someone diverts funds to their cause with no direct reason to have it in the bill.
SINGLE ISSUE BILLS, FOLKS.
so youre saying tik tok is addictive
Think they mean addition
Yes. Corrected.
Why do you think pork needs to be actual dollars?
I’ll bet you that many congress folks already own stock in whatever company is most likely to pick up US Tiktok.
Well the Senate killed the earlier bill. There’s a decent chance they pass the Ukraine/Israel aid bill without this amendment. It would then be stricken in reconciliation. Unfortunately there’s also a decent chance the Senate passes it because this version probably fixes things the Senators had problems with.
If it does get passed there’s a very good chance there’s a court order to prevent anything until the courts rule on the constitutionality of the law. If Bytedance loses that there’s zero chance they sell though. The US market is not big enough for them to jettison an international company.
Why are you cheerleading for TikTok to remain in the hands of a US adversary, during the same week when said adversary forced a US company to abjectly ban US-based messaging apps?
Retaliation. Tit for tit.
Tik for Tok
It was right there!
The first amendment doesn't have an exception for retaliation.
Eye for an eye?
If the government can just point at a company and force a fire sale then there is no market, there is no order, there is no financial industry. This is an incredibly dangerous law.
The government absolutely has unconditional and unlimited authority to restrict enemy states from ownership of anything in the US they want to.
There is absolutely no possibility of any Constitutional issue. The government has explicit authority to handle anything they want about international commerce in the Constitution.
That’s why they’re having to pass this law I guess then? Because they already have the authority to do the thing they’re trying to make the law to get the authority to do?
And TikTok isn’t owned by China. It’s owned by ByteDance, a MultiNational Corp with Chinese ties. It’s not operated out of China, Tiktok is operated out of Singapore and Los Angeles.
And what exactly is the security concern of people making funny cat videos? Nobody is saying the government has to put Tiktok on government computers. So what exactly is the exposure here that trumps the first amendment and prohibition on bills of attainder in the US?
To your first point, yes, exactly. Congress mostly has to pass bills to exercise their power. For example: they have the authority to decide finances. They pass bills to (barely) get that done.
You’re not wrong but even if this was a standing authority being used in the same way as passing the budget, it would be illegal because it targets a single entity by design. The Constitution prohibits that which is why laws are written as behavior rules you have to violate and then the government proves you violated them in court. Just declaring a company or person persona non grata is something our founders specifically prohibited.
You’re thinking of laws in terms of obedience. Law is about agreed-upon structure (sometimes functional, often dysfunctional).
Enforcement is about obedience, and comes up when people don’t go along with the agreed-upon structure. When the structure is made poorly, enforcement has harmful consequences.
Examples:
Law and enforcement are closely linked, but definitely distinct.
They have the authority to create structure (pass laws) regarding foreign powers operating within the States. So they pass laws (create structure) that state the agreed-upon structure, and enable that structure to be enforced.
Except we don’t have that power. Not unless there’s a national security threat. And they might make our children more woke isn’t a national security threat.
American individuals and this company have a first amendment right. Furthermore this isn’t a ban on all foreign owned companies. This is a ban on companies with ownership that have nebulous ties to certain countries. A list we can add to at any time. That is capricious and open to being abused. It’s also unconstitutional under the no Bills of Attainder rule.
Except we do have that power. There’s reasonable national security risk, and your lack of understanding of the dynamics involved doesn’t make them nebulous to others.
In any case, if you don’t like it, vote with your life choices. If it’s not that important, well… …it’s not that important.
You know nobody has yet to actually say what the risk is. Just that China is evil and therefore a risk. There’s some overblown stuff about them pushing cancel culture but that’s not a national security risk.
If it’s not nebulous then tell me, how are they getting our nuclear codes with a social media app they don’t directly control?
And again. No. We have rights in the US. Unless you guys go giving them away because you’re afraid you might see a Chinese video.
Passing laws is how they regulate international commerce. Or one way. Treaties are another. Executive orders are another. Actions of regulatory bodies within frameworks established by prior legislation is another.
Congress passing legislation to stop hostile foreign ownership of a US business that’s doing harm is well within their authority.
A. Doing what harm? People just throw this around and there’s been no evidence except, “lol it’s a social media company”.
B. It’s not within their authority unless there’s a specific national security problem. So what about TikTok is going to breach national security? Are they stealing military secrets? (They were already banned from government devices along with other social media apps so the answer is no. They’re not.)
The Constitution is supposed to protect us from the government just pointing at us and declaring us criminals. Today it’s TikTok tomorrow it’s you.
A. It’s malware that does an obscene amount of spying, even compared to other social media. Forcing the sale isn’t good enough. It should have been outright banned.
B. That’s incorrect. Their authority over foreign trade is unconditional and absolute. There are absolutely zero restrictions on what they can do to restrict foreign trade. Non-US companies have literally zero constitutional rights. They can ban all trade with any foreign person or business who has any commercial interaction with China if they wish. The Constitution places absolutely zero restrictions on their authority to restrict international trade.
No, the slippery slope does not exist, ignoring that that’s a stupid fallacy for a reason. I am not an enemy state. I am a US citizen. I have Constitutional rights. TikTok doesn’t, and for very good reason.
Oh now it’s malware? Funny, I haven’t seen it on any warning lists. Google hasn’t thrown it’s shield up and made me click the naughty button. Is there any reputable source saying it’s malware? Or are you just hoping I wasn’t tech literate?
International trade is literal trade, not just any foreigner offering a service. Foreign companies operating inside the US have the same rights you or I or Hobby Lobby have. Anything less runs into the same problems with restricting the Rights of non citizen individuals, namely that citizens inevitably lose those rights too. As long as they’re here they have the same rights.
Yes, they’ve been caught abusing multiple exploits.
Foreign trade is literally anything involving any person from any country that’s not the US, any corporation that isn’t based in the US, and anything involving any US citizen crossing the borders of the US and bringing anything back. The government has unconditional and unlimited authority to regulate and restrict all of it for any reason. There are absolutely zero limitations. The government can completely bar any foreign ownership of any US asset and any corporation that isn’t registered exclusively in the US from doing any business at all with anyone within the borders of the US. It cannot possibly be a Constitutional issue.
Oh? And there are reports of this, right? By cyber security professionals? Reports you could link to?
And no. Your definition would turn the New Jersey tourist industry into a Foreign Trade. If that authorization is already in law then surely you could point it out so our esteemed politicians could just use that?
I’ll save you the trouble. It isn’t there. You’re making this up as you go along because you like the way that sounds. But we’ve spent 70 years building an international trade with treaties and international courts. Even if this, somehow, isn’t a beach of the 1st Amendment, 5th Amendment, and the prohibition on Bills of Attainder we still have to abide by the treaties we’ve signed. Treaties our Constitution affords the same level of respect as itself.
See, that’s all easily findable. There’s no circular logic about having the authority so you can pass a law giving yourself the authority. It’s how laws are supposed to work.
Yes, it’s been reported numerous times.
Yes, Congress could pass laws banning tourism by foreign nationals if they wished. The constitution is explicit that they can do literally anything they want to regulate trade with other countries, and they absolute do regularly ban and sanction foreign bad actors. It has nothing to do with laws that exist. There are numerous such sanctions already in place against China and Chinese actors, and it’s an inherent right of being a sovereign nation.
You have absolutely no rights to interact or do business with foreign actors. It cannot possibly violate your rights to be prohibited from interacting with China. Every single country on the planet breaks treaties when things change to the extent doing so is required, which is irrelevant, because China routinely bans US companies for the sole purpose of protecting their own state controlled entities.
There is nothing for the Supreme Court to rule on. There is nothing remotely ambiguous here and nothing that in any way resembles a new precedent. This is entirely standard behavior.
Then where’s the report?
You’ve sat here for three comments now, without referencing the Constitution, or the report just declaring your narrative as truth.
The alternative is to outright ban it. Tik Tok is a cancer directly controlled by a hostile nation state. The government absolutely has the right to block foreign interference like this.
Pray tell how is this any worse than Facebook? Is the CCP in the Los Angeles TikTok office moderating content?
Or is this just more bullshit invented on the spot to justify an unconstitutional power grab?
Facebook isn’t under an obligation to provide America’s data directly to the government of a hostile foreign power. Tiktok is
An obligation? Is there proof of that? That’s a pretty incendiary accusation.
rfa.org/…/fact-check-tiktok-03242023144611.html
Technically according to this article tiktok won’t share data with the PRC - but their parent company bytedance is obligated to share data with the PRC when requested. Bytedance has authority to require tiktok to share data. Therefore through this channel tiktok is obligated to share data with the PRC when requested.
Bytedance owning a stake in TikTok does not mean they can require TikTok to share data. Especially if we made a common sense law to protect data saying it’s not allowed to leave the country.
Oh wait, that’s already a thing. And we just let Meta and the other data vendors keep doing it.
Attempts have been made. But the data is still sent.
theverge.com/…/tiktok-bytedance-project-texas-chi…
We should have better and more comprehensive data privacy laws across the board but whataboutism doesn’t change the fact that tiktok is obligated to share Americans data with a hostile and repressive foreign power.
Did… Did you actually read it? They sent user data for app engagement research. Oh no the CCP knows you’re a middle aged white guy in Oklahoma! The world is going to end!!!
And if we’re going to ban any data going to the CCP then we should just do that. It’s not whataboutism to point out you’re only punishing the odd duck for a crime all of the ducks are committing openly. Make that law and reform the industry. Anything less is just a racist excuse for a fire sale.
Nothing in the article cites a reason for why the data was sent. In fact the article specifically mentions that this data being sent was to circumvent attempts to limit the transmission of American citizens data to a hostile foreign government.
We should ban the sale and transmission of Americans sensitive data to hostile foreign powers regardless of the company. I support this action because it would help do that, and I would support (and I do advocate for) more broad data privacy legislation. If you support data privacy why would you not support a bill which enhances data privacy, even if it doesn’t go far enough?
You started this discussion with me by saying that tiktok isnt obligated to send data, when I provided sourcing to that effect you brought up corporate structure questions asking if the data was being sent. I provided a source showing that it is transmitted through those avenues regardless. Now your argument is that because we don’t have totally comprehensive data privacy regulation we can just ignore the fact that tiktok is sending American citizens private data to a hostile foreign power? If you think that isn’t a big deal just say so, then we can have an honest conversation.
Oh look, a reason-
And no it was their own Project Texas. Also, not nearly the data anyone is worried about. They can get that from your bank. (And yes banks sell data) That’s not a breach of national security, it’s just good business sense to retain consumers. This is also the only instance the article actually finds. The article also mentions the software programmers saying that the data coding itself is well siloed, i.e. no back doors.
So is this the horrible national security problem we’ve all heard so much about? A vital statistics spreadsheet you can buy from any Data Vendor? When you say they’re obligated to send information people aren’t thinking it’s just literately a headcount. They’re thinking it’s political affiliation, income, job, social networking maps, GPS travel data. You know the stuff that the CCP intelligence people could fit together to find out what kind of porn you like and figure out how they can get that kind of porn in China.
Every argument for why we should ban TikTok fits Facebook and Twitter just as well. They both willingly give a lot more than that spreadsheet to the CCP. Facebook is perenially in congressional hearings over getting caught doing exactly what you’re accusing TikTok of, and yet somehow here we are worrying about TikTok because of nebulous racist fearmongering that falls apart the second we find the “smoking gun”.
They’re owned by the CCP (and before you say they’re not, the ByteDance C-suite is basically all current Chinese citizens and the headquarters is in Beijing).
Businesses and people do not have rights in the way most westerners are used to. Assume anything out of China or generally owned by Chinese companies is a direct arm of the CCP … because even if it isn’t today, the CCP can unilaterally throw down an order from the top and take control of the company/have them do whatever they want or the leaders replaced.
So are American companies that are basically all Americans in the C-Suite owned by the US Government?
Even if what you were saying was true, the common sense approach is to ban the trading of data internationally. Then TikTok can tell Beijing to pound sand if they tried anything. Instead we have this fear mongering racist bullshit being touted.
Ultimately, yes. The US government can tell Google to report all searches of “I’m a goofy goober!” to them to collect a list of SpongeBob fans.
The same is true of a company like Proton and Swiss law.
The difference is that in the US/Switzerland/Western Democracy there are rights, laws, and courts that limit and check government power and action + open ended elections. Biden cannot just go to Elon Musk and tell him “this is my company now, you WILL report all the goofy goobers.” There are a lot of roadblocks to that kind of behavior.
The CCP is a monoculture based around the “National People’s Congress”. The NPC is effectively the CCP because the CCP picks who is eligible to be part of the NPC en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China
The CCP is currently effectively controlled by Xi who has claimed increasing amounts of control over the party: journalofdemocracy.org/…/china-in-xis-new-era-the…
For all intents and purposes, what Xi wants is what happens. There is no court to check him, there is no opposition party to hold him back, and anyone that tries to stand in his way will more than likely be “punished.”
This is not racist bull shit. It has nothing to do with Chinese people and everything to do with the CCP.
The trading of data also has very little to do with anything. It’s about cutting off a hostile, authoritarian, foreign power from having a direct line to millions of US citizens to push whatever message they want with minimal oversight. The data is surely just icing on the cake for the CCP because they might be able to find some blackmail worthy piece of information in their hoard of metrics and videos for a current or future public figure.
I don’t think you understand either … “Banning” something only works if they care about the law and the CCP does not care at all about US laws. If they want to break them, they will, and they will either get the people that did the job for them back to China or use people that don’t know anything/any better as scapegoats. It’s the exact same stuff any government would do, international law is imaginary because ultimately nations do not answer to nations except by diplomacy and war.
Lmao. Okay we’re done here. You have an outsized idea of nationality, government power, and what’s in TikTok data.
You’re just naive if you honestly think companies are somehow “above” the nations of their owners or that government power has some real limit beyond what other nations are willing (and able) to punish them over.
It’s also pretty naive to assert there’s nothing of value in that data, particularly of the blackmail variety. That stupid distasteful video you uploaded and then “deleted” at a teen … there’s no guarantee they don’t have it. The location ping your phone made when you were cheating on your spouse and opened TikTok while waiting for your mistress, there’s no guarantee they don’t have it.
You could even use popular political videos as the basis for evaluating who’s more likely to cooperate or believe you following an attack and mix that with geographic data to figure out how to minimize the risk of guerilla fighters. Similarly, you could use the social network graph to figure out how to put pressure on someone.
I mean, social media is honestly nasty in terms of what it can tell you about a society.
That doesn’t even begin to touch on the ability to directly manipulate a proprietary content promotion algorithm. You think they can effectively manipulate Facebook? There are no limits to the manipulation they can perform on TikTok and there is no framework for overseeing social media algorithm performance.
Multi national corporations are so beholden to their countries they cheat on their taxes and break any law they can get away with. Including selling data directly to the CCP.
So no. I don’t have time or the willpower to argue with someone who thinks international affairs is a video game and everything is tied to countries.
Just because a nation chooses to let things go unnoticed, it does not mean the nation does not have the power.
If the US Govt decides to break up Apple or Google, they are no longer whole; that’s the end of it.
Just because the principal at your school let kids break a few rules and some teachers use sick days like vacation days doesn’t mean the principal doesn’t have power over the kids and teachers.
You’re incredibly naive to think the most powerful entities in the world, nation states, are some toothless, harmless play thing that large corporations can “just subvert.” That’s the video game perspective.
To be clear, China understands this whole thing very well. There’s a reason they’re trying to kick US tech companies out and it isn’t because they’re afraid of the tech company itself.
Oh wow. You really just don’t know do you? They have to go to court to break up Apple or Google and prove a case. And this isn’t a principal on a power trip. You think it’s a button press and you call me naive? Jesus wept.
They have to go to court because the western government itself has checks and balances, as I previously stated.
It’s entirely within congress’s authority to change the law to make it the press of a button. It’s not a matter of “whether or not they have the power.” It’s where or not they allow themselves to exercise the power.
China doesn’t have all these roadblocks, especially in the Xi error; it’s much closer to an outright dictatorship than it’s been in many years.
Ah yes that bit in the Constitution about due process is just for show. Well I’m sure the police agree with you. You’d have a point, if we were having this discussion in China.
Pray tell, how do you think monopoly law works? What do you think due process is?
Like this.
I give up, you’re unreachable.
Yes, cite exactly what I said happens and ignore literally everything I’m saying once again … because “governments are subservient to corporations” and China is a benevolent government no worse than the US except when it doesn’t suit your argument.
So sick of CCP shills.
Lmao you said they just do it. There’s literally an Anti Trust case going right now. So where’s TikTok’s day in court?
PLEASE, tell me where I said “they just do it.” Give me a quote.
There you go.
“They just do it” is not in there.
Perhaps the confusion stems from that fact that the US Court System is part of the US Government. Explicitly “If the United States congress gives power to the executive branch to break up a company, the executive branch decides to break up a company, and the company is unable to successfully appeal the decision in the courts, they are no longer whole; that’s the end of it.”
Lmao. Dig that hole deeper. Go look at that Anti-trust suit. Does that look like the government just did it and Apple is appealing? Due process means the government has to prove a case before it deprives you of property. Because we don’t live in a Dictatorship.
K.
Oh you silly! The American corporations ARE the government at this point. But your point is valid either way. I don’t think it’s just about racism though. I think they want our data back in the US market. None of our corporate overlords can dip their greedy little fingers into TikTok data and that is very upsetting for them.
Yeah, I’m at a loss as to how people are buying this. They’re being asked to support this bill on less than zero evidence, just reporters breathlessly repeating hypothetical stuff. It’s just so obviously a called hit by our political donor class.
It’s because they’ve just decided they hate it/it’s just full of dancing teenagers for years now and nothing will ever change their minds. Which is wild because if it ever was that I never saw it and I’ve been on it for like 5-6 years at least. Everyone just bought into our gov saying they’re worried about propaganda/security when my page is mostly filled with memes, gaming stuff, gardening, recipes, cats, news, and now a bunch of people pissed off about the ban.
What really got me is how easily manipulated lemmy/reddit users were the second time they tried to ban it. Tiktok sent out a notification telling their users they were voting for the ban and offering to help them find their local representatives if they wanted to call them and object to it. As they should that’s how democracy is supposed to work isn’t it? Immediately they got flooded with calls from people like me telling them that we didn’t want the ban. Also immediately, the media started to spin it as a bunch of “vulnerable” teenagers and elderly people were forced or tricked into calling in their confusion… And PEOPLE BELIEVED IT. Just ate it right up. Crazy.
Yeah that was crazy. They asked people to lobby for them, as other companies have done, and suddenly they’re brainwashing our youth. Every time this comes up I feel like I’m taking crazy pills just from the sheer pressure of people saying TikTok is malware/spyware/directly controlled; but the evidence they point to is always weak at best. It’s like they think TikTok is the Chinese version of the black helicopter secret organization.
Facebook literally conducted “social experiments” on like a million of their users and didn’t even get a slap on the wrist. What you’re saying isn’t even true but if it was so what? Another country profits off of stealing my data instead of the US? What has the US ever given me for my data? My taxes already help.fund genocides and I don’t get any say in any of it so fuck it.
Because it has absolutely nothing to do with any of that and everything to do with US corporations wanting our data and eyeballs back. If you think otherwise you’re just too easily manipulated.
Not big enough. I imagine it’s their biggest market.
It’s the biggest single country but in a world of 7.9 Billion people, 148 million is a fraction.
But it’s also not available in China correct? They have a separate version with a different name from what I understand. They could do the same for the other regions they serve and sell the US user base to a new company.
The Chinese app is a completely different app and company than TikTok. ByteDance owns two apps. While we might end up with an American version ByteDance is not going to sell TikTok. And at the closest, that version would be an American corporation running a licensed version of TikTok with TikTok’s American server and software infrastructure. But that’s not very likely, even with a year’s lead time. That’s the kind of deal you get when a company exits a market voluntarily. When you have a fire sale you far more often see a company’s assets sold as parts. The problem is it’s not an equal playing ground anymore and free market principles no longer apply.
So in this case TikTok would still want the most money possible for their buildings, servers, office equipment, etc. That means that all Meta and friends need to do in order to prevent a whole sale is give TikTok a good deal on one aspect. If Meta takes the servers, and Reddit takes the work computers, and Alphabet takes the source code, and Apple takes the buildings, there’s not very much left over for a new competitor to grab and turn into a running concern that could compete.
So in this case TikTok itself comes away fine. But the American social media market becomes less competitive and consumers have to deal with shittier apps as there’s less competition.
There are two very concerning points to this law in the future though. This is a law allowing the executive branch to make a declaration about a company and force a fire sale. If this was done to a domestic company with foreign backing then it would simply be the end of that company. Second, this does not in any way actually keep the CCP from getting our data or influencing us through social media. In 2016 Russia famously ran an information op through Facebook. There have been no reforms to keep that from happening again and in fact we saw that same campaign in 2020, it just wasn’t enough the second time. And American Data Vendors willingly sell our data to the highest bidder, including the CCP. They have been caught doing so multiple times, have received nothing more than a slap on the wrist, and there’s no evidence they’ve stopped.
So this law puts a dangerous precedent into place without solving any of the things it says it’s going to solve. The short story here is that unless we’re talking about school lunches you need to run away the second a politician says it’s for the children.
Oh and it’s an open question as to if it’s even Constitutional since it’s basically a standing authority to ban companies by name. Which is literally called out in the Constitution and why you’ve never seen a law to punish someone by name in the US. There’s supposed to be a court procedure and a law they’ve violated. If they wanted to make a law saying a company could be banned for giving data to declared enemies and enforce it in civil court that would be proper. But it would immediately fail because all of our Billionaires are ass deep in the data markets. So we have this smoke cloud instead.
Why would they sell? That would create a competitor that could easily expand into other markets and take away that user base as well.
grabs popcorn
mimes eating popcorn, while pointing to overlayed captions, with a Taylor Swift song playing in the background
This person TikToks!
If that’s what you guys see on TikTok then that’s what you interact with and enjoy watching so you’re just kinda telling on yourselves lmao
Crazy that the proposed solution to propaganda is banning media instead of investing in education that promotes critical thinking. Or maybe the idea here is “no propaganda except mine”.
What do you think billionaires are bribing congress for? Regulatory capture keeps all the competitors out. Whereas actually fixing the problem of social media brainwashing would cost them money.
Looking at things pragmatically widespread education of the population takes time and simply won’t take for some people. There are folks today complaining that “they don’t teach taxes in school”. These people have a problem filling out a 1040EZ. Not exactly encouraging.
At the same time Tic Tok represents a single vector for current or potential foreign propaganda and intelligence gathering targeting the American public. Opportunities to nip a single bud (so to speak) are few and far between and probably won’t be possible in the near future.
TL;DR - The “sell or ban” is a short term measure that won’t take a lot of time, education is a long term measure that takes years.
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Investing in education is counter to the clear goals of the USA. Smart people would revolt, protest,and you know, hold companies and billionaires accountable. Uneducated people are often poor, can’t afford to fight back and are scared they will lose what little they have.
At some point we need all to fight back, but it might be too late. And worse, too few will join in out of fear of death.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/e822e660-ce58-4cf1-953f-b3df0dbb4a5c.jpeg">
If people can pick apart China’s propaganda it means they can pick apart US propaganda, too.
Can’t have that.
Well, of course. They aren’t banning Facebook, Instagram or YouTube. That’s exactly how they want it.
they aren’t even banning tiktok, at least they’re trying not to. What they’re trying to do is force a sale specifically to US government insiders. They’re seizing it. They want that sweet, sweet propaganda and data mining for themselves.
Wow good find. The revolving door in action.
I have to tell you, I know many intelligent people that have succumbed to propaganda, and outrage porn addiction. I see it continue to happen on all sides of the political isle. (This isn’t a both sides kind of statement, simply acknowledgement that the same tactics work on our brain, indifferent of political ideology.)
Whether they are hooked on the dopamine rush of rage baiting up votes, likes or comments; or only seeing everything in the world through a myopic lens of negativity, it has captured many of my friends and family, including myself for a time.
For some their drug is Fox News, others it’s Reddit, Facebook or TikTok, the results are often the same.
I have yet to figure out a manner in which to communicate with individuals who spend considerable amounts of time in echo chambers, constantly having their personal beliefs reinforced. Evasion of cognitive dissonance and social conflict are very powerful psychological motivations. I wish I knew the solution.
Fuck that bro, get mad as hell.
We deserve better lives, and we should be pissed it’s being taken from us.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
get mad as hell
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Not really sure what you’re getting at. Getting mad is good, getting locked into an echo chamber and eschewing critical thinking in lieu of groupthink is bad.
And yet China is banning basically the whole Western internet, foreign companies must enter joint ventures with Chinese companies under government control. Reciprocity is fair. Why should Byte Dance be allowed to take in billions to fund Chinese gulags?
Why do you want our social media to mirror China? That’s the real question. What’s the US gonna do with our data that’s so much better? Oh yeah, fund our allies genocides! Yay! 🥳
I want Chinese companies face exactly the same hurdles in the west as western companies face in China. Applies to all economic branches, not just social media.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
In what way is taking a platform away from millions of Americans an acceptable way to do that? Yes, our taxes are funding a genocide and instead of listening to the droves of people protesting that they suddenly all get together and magically agree to ban tiktok. They can’t agree to feed school children but still agreed to ban TikTok. The fact that you see it as retaliation is also hilarious because that’s supposed to be illegal and they’re still claiming that’s not why they’re doing it. Even you see through that bullshit on accident
Everything I said was relevant to my point. You linked the wiki to whataboutism and still used it wrong lmaooooo.
China does thing: Bad
America does same thing: Good
At least the US government can’t harvest US citizens social media data without a warrant (excepting all the patriot act stuff). But there is zero protection for your data from the CCP if it’s on TikTok. That’s understandably a pretty huge security concern. I can also understand China not wanting data from their citizens in the hands of American social media companies. Idk if any if it is good or bad but it’s certainly common sense on a national level.
As someone who’s neither chinese nor american I want nothing more than these countries to keep their hands to themselves. I don’t like China doing it, and I don’t want the US doing it because China does it. Are y’all gonna hand a piece of your companies to every country they operate in? I’m guessing “no”.
Ahh, so you’re in favor of the West implementing their own Great Firewall?
Against China: Yes.
Gross.
Winner winner 🐔 dinner.
It’s not even about propaganda it’s not having it until their thumb, they can’t push a button and ensure the top video under trans on every search is Matt Walsh, and yeah on all other major platforms if you search trans people critical of trans people pop up. The reasoning isn’t popularity or engagement, the US government has ordered them to do it through backroom tax deals and Slapp orders. Next stop for the US gov is gonna be the fediverse and AT proto, they are gonna argue that not just anyone should be trusted and that running a social media server is a big task. security blah blah children, protecting your data. Than lass a bill require you to obtain an FCC license to host your own social media site. It only gets worse from here folks
I didn’t really like your attitude about it, but you’re probably right. Moving goalposts is what the US does to establish precedents.
Even if someone hates TikTok for whatever reason this should still piss them off. They tried to do this twice and the people said NO both times. To the extent that they spread a bunch of bs rhetoric claiming people were forced to call their representatives last time because they got so much immediate push back lol. Nobody was forced to do anything. A notification was sent to TikTok inboxes telling people about the vote and offering to help them contact their local reps about it. A bunch of people exercised their rights to have a voice and did just that. That was it. That’s what happened.
Now here we are. In an incredibly undemocratic move, they forced the ban through anyway.
Look, I hate TERFs and distrust the US government, but this take is just conspiracy theory nonsense. Unless you have some evidence that the US government is forcing social media to promote anti-trans content, I have absolutely zero reason to believe your claim over the more believable explanation: that promoting controversial content drives engagement and increases ad revenue.
I see no issue with banning tik tok.
It’s not even “banning tik-tok”. It’s “separate your interests, or we block your product”.
Which isn’t exactly something that we haven’t seen before in the U.S. and it for sure isn’t anything new in China where plenty of services, games…etc are blocked with “Chinese only” versions of those services.
We forced the sale of Grindr and nobody even brought it up.
They’re not even remotely the same thing… Y’all are so out of touch it’s ridiculous.
It’s literally the exact same thing being done to a different app. It’s not a wild comparison.
The apps themselves are wildly different. You think it’s a coincidence that this got forced through right before elections? Our gov doesn’t like that they can’t control the narrative there. They also really don’t like how upset tiktok makes the US corporations that fill their pockets. How is that comparable? Unless you think the ban is for security like they’re claiming, which is laughable, because it’s so obviously not.
Given how many politicians are deeply closeted, I like to imagine they hurried this one along quietly
It’s a ban. They have stated in no uncertain terms that they will not sell or separate any interests. It’s not for our “security” or any of that absolute BS either. It’s for their own profits and because they want people’s data.
The fact that you’d want our media to even remotely resemble the highly sensored versions in China is insane to me. Y’all are just happy to go along with this because you don’t like tiktok. That’s it. That’s all it took for a lot of you. I’d say I expected better but it’s becoming more obvious every day that lemmy is where the old and out of touch people migrated to. Despite it seeming like it would be the opposite.
You genuinely don’t care if the government oversteps as long as it fits your bias. The fact that they couldn’t get it to go through as a single issue twice so they had to shove it with other issues just to get their way should be enough to piss most people off but here we are. It’s a shame. I’m disappointed in how easily manipulated so many of you are. Truly.
I haven’t followed it too closely, but I know this has been years in the making so the company should have a contingency plan. You have to wonder why the company refuses to take steps satisfactory to Congress to ensure that the CCP cannot access user data or influence the content or algorithm. It is economically suicidal to be banned in the US, which makes me think that Bytedance’s CCP masters told the company to refuse. Of course, now that the law has been passed, Bytedance will have to separate their interests since I doubt they’ll allow the app to be banned. They’d lose most of their advertising revenue if they were banned in the US. Not to mention the fact that a US ban would likely be followed by bans in other countries. I’m sure Bytedance can find a way to have another company manage their data while still making plenty of money. No need to pity a company making billions in revenue on the labour of content creators.
They can’t really have a contingency because they won’t sell. They can’t due to the laws there anyway. It’s been plainly stated countless times. We’ll see how it goes but regardless the US gov is playing dirty here under the guise of protecting our security. The people clearly said no the first two times and they shoved it through anyway. I don’t see how people don’t find that at least a little alarming
You make a good point about Bytedance perhaps not being permitted to have a contingency plan. However, the CCP may have one. Whatever Xi says is law in China.
And he’s said that companies can’t sell property like the TikTok algorithm to other countries. I highly doubt he’ll suddenly have a change of heart now. I honestly hope he doesn’t because the US shouldn’t be making legislation against its own citizens wishes just to fuck with China in the first place.
Why do you say that Congress is making legislation against its own citizens’ wishes? A quick Google search shows that polls suggest that twice as many Americans favour the ban as oppose it.
I’m still trying to figure out what the downside of this legislation is. It doesn’t ban any specific content or speech, it just bans a particular company from operating a specific platform in the US. Tiktok is still permitted to operate if it is controlled by a company that isn’t directly subject to the CCP. If Xi chooses to not let that happen, that is on him. Xi certainly can’t cry foul without massive hypocrisy, given that he has already banned virtually all western social media.
Lmao polls. Ok. We’ll just ignore the fact that the large public outcry the last two hearings stalled the proceedings forcing them to shove it through with another bill I guess.
It’s literally illegal to make legislation targeting a single company. If you don’t see a problem with them breaking their own laws to please their corporate overlords then I don’t know what else I can tell you.
My favorite part about replies like yours is how willing you are to stoop to the same level of China in retaliation. Even if it impacts millions of US citizens. But that doesn’t matter to you because you don’t like or use the app so what do you care right? Not to even mention the people that make a living through it.
Whoa, take it easy there, friend. That got personal rather quickly. Are you mad? I don’t have a horse in this race one way or the other. I don’t use Tiktok but I don’t have anything against it either. It seems to me that social media apps pop up like dandelions and the main thing that determines whether or not they thrive is the number of people participating. I guess I’m wondering why anyone should care if Tiktok in particular survives or some other social media platform takes its place. They rise, they fall, but there always seems to be a replacement.
Hey I’ve heard there’s this really cool app for lipsyncing and dancing. Apparently it’s getting pretty popular. Sounds like you’d have more fun there
You just made my point and you don’t even realize it lmao
Okay then, where did all the young and in-touch people end up?
I’m not telling you old man
No yeah this whole deal is like. Just a bunch of mildly liberal gen X Linux users, basically, that think they’re hot shit because they were right about like half of their opinions like a decade ago and haven’t changed since. The amount of people hating on even basic shit like discord here is nuts.
Get with the times, grandpa, we all use pirated windows LTSC with Microsoft activation scripts and various privacy and installation scripts! C’mon! We all use YouTube revanced grandpa! Libtube? What the fuck are you talking about?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
What are you talking about?
Where’s the wikipedia page detailing how Tiktok gives information to the CCP without users’ knowledge?
en.wikipedia.org/…/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt
Except they would be ignoring all the other shitty social networks but it’s a start.
It’s not a start tho, it’s killing competition of Facebook and Google. It’s consolidating power if anything. I believe this bill has nothing to do with security issues and everything to do with campaign contributions to make sure America never has to compete with another country in this space.
Oh I know their motivation is greed.
eh, It would look like more of a shakedown if it was just the US doing it, but tiktok is getting banned all over the place, particularly for government devices.
Except for the part where they couldn’t get support for it twice so they shoved it in here to get their way? But that’s ok because you don’t like the silly dancing app that you know basically nothing about right? Other than “China bad”, of course.
I don’t give a shit about the China bit, I just think it’s dumb and full of misinformation so I really don’t care if it’s banned. I have no reason to hide my thoughts on this. It’s stupid, I think it’s cringey as fuck, and I’ll be happy to see it go. I know nothing about it because it doesn’t remotely interest me in the slightest. I’m sorry you’re upset people don’t like your stupid little dancing app but lashing out like this changes jack shit. You’re right. We don’t like it. Nobody here was hiding that.
What misinformation is it full of? You surely must know if you’re confidently making this claim.
Honestly? You have clearly never used it. The fact that you’re just parroting what you’ve heard from others brainlessly is what’s truly cringy here. Absolutely low IQ behavior. Not worth my time.
Ok, its cool that you believe that. Have a nice day!
Of course you didn’t answer the question. I knew you wouldn’t.
Cool bro, want a gold star? A cookie maybe?
Are you actually an adult?
Brother, I’m tired of this. I think it’s cool that you disagree with me. Not too worried about it. There has got to be better things for you to do than constantly bugging me like this. It’s ok for you to think of me however you will. Have a nice day!
what did tiktok do to deserve being banned, and why is it okay for other companies to do that?
TikTok is very heavily influenced by the CCP and could be used to collect data from Americans (probably they already are). Not wanting your biggest geopolitical rival to harvest data from your citizens is pretty understandable.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
What are you talking about?
Where’s the wikipedia page detailing how Tiktok gives information to the CCP without users’ knowledge?
en.wikipedia.org/…/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt
Chinese government is a lot less a threat to me compared to the US. We are at most two elections cycles away from a Christian Nationalism state. China is over there, not my problem. I can avoid them if I want.
Feeding data to the CCP, helping them identify people who can be easily swayed into espionage. Say someone gets into a position of power. “Hey, remember when you were 12 and said this on tik Tok? Now we need you to be out bitch or we’re leaking this.”
Look at the things that have gone viral on Tik Tok, it’s like their algorithm prioritizes things that are toxic to make American youth shittier. Kia boys comes to mind.
There is also the fact that China bans all American social media out of fear that we’d use it to manipulate their people. If they aren’t allowing our businesses to compete fairly, why should we allow theirs? Also, they probably are projecting that fear because they are doing exactly that with TikTok.
The app has more permissions than most apps and is highly invasive. They sent a push notification to all their users based on Geo location saying who their rep was and giving their phone number saying to call them to stop this bill. That alone seems like a major abuse of power. They are using the data they have to try to sway the American politicians already.
you’ve failed to answer my second question, which I believe was the important one: why should this behavior be perfectly legal for everyone other than tiktok?
Yeah it’s a good question, and I think the answer should be: it shouldn’t. Instead of cracking down on one platform or another, they should be cracking down on the bad behaviors built into those platforms.
But alas, that would require us to elect politicians that understand an ounce of nuance
I agree with you, but I’m assuming malice because I don’t think that stupidity adequately explains their behavior. I think that, to them, the problem isn’t propaganda and espionage, it’s Chinese propaganda and Chinese espionage where American propaganda and American espionage should be. That’s why they’re not making what tiktok does illegal, and that’s why they’re trying to force a sale rather than actually banning it.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM
Not a single thing you said has convinced me. And I am going to get on Tik Tok out of spite when this passes into law.
Sounds like a lose-lose scenario
Not really. It might have something I enjoy on it.
I don’t like TikTok, but I do take issue with the government deciding what is and isn’t available to me.
They are not banning the content type that tiktok provides, they are banning the foreign authoritarian government control of American user information. If Bytedance Sells tiktok to a business in a non authoritarian state then they no longer care.
i hate TikTok but also Instagram and YouTube shorts should be in the same list
How about a digital bill of rights that applies to every corporation you fucking cowards!
They don’t care about every corporation because they work with those corporations. It’s because it’s a foreign power that started doing the same shit they’ve been doing for decades now. None of these countries & corporations deserve any sort of sympathy or support from any sane individual.
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Weren’t you all just hating on Republicans for not voting for that bill.
How about an all bills must be fucking separate bill?
This was a separate bill. Til Tok, Taiwan, Ukraine, and Israel were all separate. They were brought to the floor at the same time, but they could’ve all been voted on differently
At least the Genocrats cant hide behind the “it was bundled in with Ukraine” excuse now. The end up the exact same as the Republicunts.
Both sides are exactly the same.
What is a genocrat?
Linkerbaan is just a troll. Always trying to muddy the conversation with terms like “genocide joe” and “sleepy joe.” I assume “genocrats” are his clever portmanteau for genocide Democrats.
Edit: notice how he edits his comments to make them more “both sides” instead of the original “Democrats bad” message.
So the article is wrong?
You need to fix voting in congress first. The reason riders get put in is because some small bills that are of no interest to some in congress would never make it because they’d never get enough votes to pass. Of course the system got abused to hell with poison pills and shitty bills that are crammed into popular legislation to make it hard to pass or make good legislation pass shitty laws.
So yeah, split the bills. But make these clowns vote on everything.
Minimum wage has been $7.25/hr for 15 years and this is what they’re getting done on Capitol Hill 🤪
Because of lobbyists
And useful idiots.
“they won’t let the algorithm be sold and without it, it’s an empty deal” I don’t see how that’s a problem. Obviously there’s a great deal of knowledge about what “the algorithm” does across the userbase; just get users to raise tickets about what they miss and others to upvote them, then knock them off one by one. There’s nothing magic about “users who liked post A also liked post B” or “company X paid us $1000000000000 so here’s post C whether you like it or not”. It might even end up being better than the original.
Oh, no! What will I do without my level 5 gyatt rizz livvy fanum tax dunne rizzing up baby gronk ice spice wat da dawg doin skibidi toilet in real life only in ohio we go jim zyzz creatine alpha sigma cuh dey board?
This bill would also outlaw using VPNs to view such restricted platforms, and has a general policy that would allow lawmakers to ban any platform they claim is a national security risk. No overreach here!
The poor kids will lose everything because of course you can only host that kind of fucking trash on tik tok!! It’s either on tik tok or not at all!!!
it’s ridiculous how attached these children are to a chinese company lol. They just host the goddamn footage and provide an algo to feed that shit to you. THAT’S IT! TT ain’t some special fuckin unicorn
but the kids are kids and they don’t want to think about and understand that. Most on tiktok probably don’t even know of or remember Vine or the other previous iterations of the same exact shit concept. But noooo, the CCP must be allowed to frame the narratives/algos and vacuum up all possible PII data!!!
now that aside, the VPN part you mention is indeed disturbing. Could you please provide the source / exact wording for this claim? I want to read more about it but can’t find anything close to what you are suggesting
www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/…/text?s=3&r…
VPN or virtual private network are not mentioned anywhere
TikTok is also a pretty effective protest tool, which is also a threat to conservatives. It’s just funny how they’re so against the CCP rotting the brains of children but do nothing about the black box of YouTube recommendations and every American social media platform (until they started banning campaign misinformation)
Shit, they revised it then. I remember there was originally language like that in the original 2023 version.
Currently 0-2 today for spreading correct information.
yes haha, I agree. It’s not a consistent position which is really dumb.
I’m glad they revised it!! It’s still good to call it out as I wasn’t aware of that being in an old version!! Sneaky little bastards
(Citation needed)
journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/…/20563051211012344?…
Quick search
Can we just put the american and chinese government in a room and let them fight it out untill they are done?
Just let me watch my funny cat videos and cooking videos in peace thankyou very much.
I will never vote for my rep again because of this. Climate change, runaway COL, rising wealth inequality, legalize cannabis, Middle East on fire, flood in the district that killed people…utter silence.
Banning Tik Tok was the priority.
I won’t vote GOP but my rep is never getting my vote again.
Is your rep speaker of the house Mike Johnson? If not, they don’t choose which bill is voted on…
Could have voted nay, could have refused to vote on it, could have demanded a rider be attached passing universal healthcare. Choose to vote against our rights to use as shitty app. Therefore I choose to never vote for them again.
Unless you got a time machine my decision is final.